Watch, Follow, &
Connect with Us

Please visit our new home
community.embarcadero.com.


Welcome, Guest
Guest Settings
Help

Thread: Limit of 1000 $ for Delphi Starter is ridiculuos



Permlink Replies: 59 - Last Post: Mar 16, 2018 9:17 AM Last Post By: Markus Humm Threads: [ Previous | Next ]
Radu Mircea Cap...

Posts: 27
Registered: 1/9/10
Limit of 1000 $ for Delphi Starter is ridiculuos
Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this thread Reply
  Posted: Feb 3, 2018 5:23 AM
All we want to have more younger people who joins the Delphi Community.

Suppose i am a young developer who want to build a software company...
Suppose i know the advantages of Delphi for developing Windows Applications...
Suppose i don't have much money but i have a big determination .

Now, what should i choose for Windows Application development: C Sharp or Delphi Starter?
The limit of Delphi Starter of 1000$ revenue doesn't help me much even in a poor country.

So please Embarcadero/Idera raise this ridiculous limit of 1000 $ to 10 000 $ total revenue and we will win much more younger people to the Delphi Community.

Edited by: Radu Mircea Capota on Feb 13, 2018 6:12 AM

Brandon Staggs

Posts: 683
Registered: 3/3/01
Re: Limit of 1000 $ for Delphi Starter is ridiculuos
Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this thread Reply
  Posted: Feb 3, 2018 7:35 AM   in response to: Radu Mircea Cap... in response to: Radu Mircea Cap...
"Radu Mircea Capota" wrote on Sat, 3 Feb 2018 05:23:14 -0800:

The limit of Delphi Starter of 1000$ revenue doesn't help me much even in a poor country.

You've got bigger problems than that. If you are using Delphi Starter,
you are already missing some of the most important tools you need --
namely, access to the RTL and VCL source code.

--
Brandon Staggs
StudyLamp Software LLC
http://www.studylamp.com
Arnaud BOUCHEZ

Posts: 143
Registered: 2/17/02
Re: Limit of 1000 $ for Delphi Starter is ridiculuos
Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this thread Reply
  Posted: Feb 4, 2018 4:15 AM   in response to: Brandon Staggs in response to: Brandon Staggs
Brandon Staggs wrote:
"Radu Mircea Capota" wrote on Sat, 3 Feb 2018 05:23:14 -0800:
You've got bigger problems than that.

The main problem is IMHO the disabled code completion and navigation in the IDE, which makes it just unacceptable for any IDE, even free.
Brandon Staggs

Posts: 683
Registered: 3/3/01
Re: Limit of 1000 $ for Delphi Starter is ridiculuos
Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this thread Reply
  Posted: Feb 4, 2018 5:45 AM   in response to: Arnaud BOUCHEZ in response to: Arnaud BOUCHEZ
"Arnaud BOUCHEZ" wrote on Sun, 4 Feb 2018 04:15:07 -0800:

Brandon Staggs wrote:
"Radu Mircea Capota" wrote on Sat, 3 Feb 2018 05:23:14 -0800:
You've got bigger problems than that.

The main problem is IMHO the disabled code completion and navigation in the IDE, which makes it just unacceptable for any IDE, even free.

Wow. I didn't realize they did that.

When you're using a paid version, you usually have to write more than
100 lines of code before code completion stops working.

--
Brandon Staggs
StudyLamp Software LLC
http://www.studylamp.com
John David

Posts: 86
Registered: 9/5/16
Re: Limit of 1000 $ for Delphi Starter is ridiculuos
Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this thread Reply
  Posted: Feb 4, 2018 5:35 PM   in response to: Arnaud BOUCHEZ in response to: Arnaud BOUCHEZ
On 04/02/2018 12:15, Arnaud BOUCHEZ wrote:
Brandon Staggs wrote:
"Radu Mircea Capota" wrote on Sat, 3 Feb 2018 05:23:14 -0800:
You've got bigger problems than that.

The main problem is IMHO the disabled code completion and navigation in the IDE, which makes it just unacceptable for any IDE, even free.

There no command-line compiler either so you can't use VS-code text
editor to write your code and compile it from within it.
Kevin Dean

Posts: 2
Registered: 9/29/99
Re: Limit of 1000 $ for Delphi Starter is ridiculuos
Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this thread Reply
  Posted: Feb 14, 2018 4:17 PM   in response to: Arnaud BOUCHEZ in response to: Arnaud BOUCHEZ
Arnaud BOUCHEZ wrote:
Brandon Staggs wrote:
"Radu Mircea Capota" wrote on Sat, 3 Feb 2018 05:23:14 -0800:
You've got bigger problems than that.

The main problem is IMHO the disabled code completion and navigation in the IDE, which makes it just unacceptable for any IDE, even free.

Agreed. We used Delphi Starter during a large portion of a high school programming course last year. Many students had never touched programming before that year. Functionality that was sorely missed included class completion (Ctrl + Shift + C) and ability to trigger code formatting. Having this functionality would have removed barriers for them in understanding how the code should look and getting their code into workable order, which would have saved us all time in class.
Markus Humm

Posts: 5,113
Registered: 11/9/03
Re: Limit of 1000 $ for Delphi Starter is ridiculuos
Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this thread Reply
  Posted: Mar 14, 2018 12:31 PM   in response to: Kevin Dean in response to: Kevin Dean
Kevin Dean wrote:
Arnaud BOUCHEZ wrote:
Brandon Staggs wrote:
"Radu Mircea Capota" wrote on Sat, 3 Feb 2018 05:23:14 -0800:
You've got bigger problems than that.

The main problem is IMHO the disabled code completion and navigation in the IDE, which makes it just unacceptable for any IDE, even free.

Agreed. We used Delphi Starter during a large portion of a high school programming course last year. Many students had never touched programming before that year. Functionality that was sorely missed included class completion (Ctrl + Shift + C) and ability to trigger code formatting. Having this functionality would have removed barriers for them in understanding how the code should look and getting their code into workable order, which would have saved us all time in class.

Hello,

there's noo need to use Starter Edition for shool projects. EMBT nowadays has shool licencing in place where shools get licences
either free or severely discounted as a full set for the classroom with the ability for students to install a copy at home as well.

Just ask an EMBT representative for your country about this and try to establish a contact between your shool and EMBT.

Officially there's a 100 licences or so limit, but on a EMBT tradeshow in Germany last spring I was told that it poses no
problem when one needs more licences. One just needs to talk with EMBT about it.

Greetings

Markus
John David

Posts: 86
Registered: 9/5/16
Re: Limit of 1000 $ for Delphi Starter is ridiculuos
Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this thread Reply
  Posted: Feb 4, 2018 5:32 PM   in response to: Brandon Staggs in response to: Brandon Staggs
On 03/02/2018 15:35, Brandon Staggs wrote:
"Radu Mircea Capota" wrote on Sat, 3 Feb 2018 05:23:14 -0800:

The limit of Delphi Starter of 1000$ revenue doesn't help me much even in a poor country.

You've got bigger problems than that. If you are using Delphi Starter,
you are already missing some of the most important tools you need --
namely, access to the RTL and VCL source code.

Also database access. You can't create an App that needs Database for
example Accounting or Tax software. Database is required to streamline
the code and make life a bit easy.
Arnaud BOUCHEZ

Posts: 143
Registered: 2/17/02
Re: Limit of 1000 $ for Delphi Starter is ridiculuos
Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this thread Reply
  Posted: Feb 5, 2018 4:58 AM   in response to: John David in response to: John David
{quote:title=John David wrote:}
Also database access. You can't create an App that needs Database for
example Accounting or Tax software. Database is required to streamline
the code and make life a bit easy.

You can technically have database access with Starter, if you use third-party solutions which are not DB.pas-based like http://zeoslib.sourceforge.net/index.php or https://synopse.info/files/html/Synopse%20mORMot%20Framework%20SAD%201.18.html#TITL_126

Note that all features of our ORM/SOA/MVC framework work with Delphi Starter.
So you could possibly create huge apps with it... technically... I don't speak about the Embarcadero license terms, which are quite restrictive (even for the professional version). ;)
John David

Posts: 86
Registered: 9/5/16
Re: Limit of 1000 $ for Delphi Starter is ridiculuos
Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this thread Reply
  Posted: Feb 4, 2018 5:43 PM   in response to: Radu Mircea Cap... in response to: Radu Mircea Cap...
On 03/02/2018 13:23, Radu Mircea Capota wrote:
All we want to have more younger people who joins the Delphi Community.
It is not my case but ...

Suppose i am a young developer who want to build a software company...
Suppose i know the advantages of Delphi for developing Windows Applications...
Suppose i don't have much money but i have a big determination .

Now, what should i choose for Windows Application development: C Sharp or Delphi Starter?
The limit of Delphi Starter of 1000$ revenue doesn't help me much even in a poor country.

So please Embarcadero/Idera raise this ridiculous limit of 1000 $ to 10 000 $ total revenue and we will win much more younger people to the Delphi Community.

I think the major problem with Delphi is that there is no single body
that is able to say it is ISO compliant or whatever like C#, C and C++.
They all have independent people who decides what is standard and what
is not.

Delphi works best with a niche group of individuals and when they die
there is no more Delphi user group!!!!!!!

End of Delphi is nigh!!!!!

C# is attracting new users daily and it is compared by reviewers with
languages like of C++, C and Java. Nobody talks about Delphi these
days. Not even Colleges.

Arnaud BOUCHEZ

Posts: 143
Registered: 2/17/02
Re: Limit of 1000 $ for Delphi Starter is ridiculuos
Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this thread Reply
  Posted: Feb 5, 2018 5:24 AM   in response to: John David in response to: John David
John David wrote:
C# is attracting new users daily and it is compared by reviewers with
languages like of C++, C and Java. Nobody talks about Delphi these
days. Not even Colleges.

I guess you have Microsoft stock options, or only hear from M$ reviewers...
And which C# are you talking about? It is not only about the language, but the framework/runtime it runs on - and with C# you have several, with (still) inconsistent libraries.

Put on the same level C++ / C and C# / Java is a technical joke.
On the other hand, Delphi/FPC is more likely to attract C++ / C people, because it has no GC, no runtime, and native compilation with no dependency.
But I'm not sure that Delphi + ARC will attract such peoples, because they know the cost of ARC.

Feed the troll! :)
Robert Triest

Posts: 687
Registered: 3/24/05
Re: Limit of 1000 $ for Delphi Starter is ridiculuos
Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this thread Reply
  Posted: Feb 5, 2018 5:53 AM   in response to: John David in response to: John David
I think it's anyway not fair to compare EMB with Microsoft.

MS can offer a lot for free because they generate money with many tools like Office suite , SQL Database, Program Languages, Hardware, etc.
Why should a relative small company like EMB create a starter version with everything free including Databases components, Command line
compiler and everything to create a professional program langauge. Where should they earn money with when they put every thing for
free in a starter edition?
Joseph Mitzen

Posts: 392
Registered: 6/9/02
Re: Limit of 1000 $ for Delphi Starter is ridiculuos
Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this thread Reply
  Posted: Feb 5, 2018 5:04 PM   in response to: Robert Triest in response to: Robert Triest
Robert Triest wrote:
I think it's anyway not fair to compare EMB with Microsoft.

MS can offer a lot for free because they generate money with many tools like Office suite , SQL Database, Program Languages, Hardware, etc.

Embarcadero and Idera can offer a lot for free because they generate money (most of their money, actually) with many database-related tools. :-)

I don't know why people think Embarcadero depends on Delphi. EMBT bought CodeGear for $30 million. If we're very generous we can say that it doubled in value. Idera bought EMBT for $600 million. Idera was said to be the same size as EMBT when it acquired it. This means that being generous, Delphi makes up 5% of the combined company's worth, possibly down to 2.5%.

Why should a relative small company like EMB create a starter version with everything free including Databases components, Command line
compiler and everything to create a professional program langauge.

Because they HAVE TO. It's like product pricing - you can only charge what the market will tolerate, not what you think is fair value. Open source rules development today. It's the reason we have Visual Studio Community Edition, Oracle/DB2/SQL Server "Express Editions", etc. Companies have had to give away these versions to try to maintain smaller developers for whom cost alone would make using open source the only sensible choice.

Bill Gates got this. He once said that he'd rather someone pirate Windows and figure out how to monetize them later than have them use a competing product. It's a basic fact of marketing that users tend not to look at competing products unless/until they have a problem. If you lose someone to a different brand, you've most likely lost them for good. With the explicit and implicit lock-in that occurs with dev tools, the effect is even more pronounced.

Where should they earn money with when they put every thing for
free in a starter edition?

With all of their database products? With their Enterprise and Architect SKUs?

It's working fine for JetBrains, which has open source versions of its IntelliJ and PyCharm IDEs. Heck, they even give away a language they created - Kotlin. They're also smart enough to offer 5 or 10 user licenses of their bug-tracking products for free, as well as corporate and personal pricing (no limitation on revenue). Again, they realize that teams that small are never going to pay the money for a full license anyway (unless they're Delphi developers I guess). But now you've still got these people using your system. If they grow larger, they're going to want to get more licenses. If they don't, again, they were never going to be a paying customer. However, devs may quit and join other firms where they will recommend the product, They will tell other devs about the product. Usage numbers also encourage tech book publishers, 3rd party plugin providers, etc. to support the product.

It's a question of who can afford not to try to lock in new devs or small teams today? Embarcadero's "big iron" mentality is putting the product in a death spiral. There's no feasible "on-ramp" for new users, so attrition is not replenished. This requires raising the price and/or coming up with new things to charge existing customers for, which leads to more leaving, etc.

So EMBT can give away a crippled version that will not attract a single new developer. Meanwhile, JetBrains can price most of its IDEs at $89 (price DROP from $99 in 2016!) for individuals. One can also pay a mere $8.90 a month subscription! This is for a full version of a single IDE (a bit more for C# and Java IDEs, but those also bundle more) - no revenue limitations either! So, dev tool cost for a solo start-up venture with Delphi? $1400 up front. Jetbrains with C++ or Go or Python or several other choices? $8.90. And it'll run on Linux or your Mac. If you're running Windows, VSCE will be free. Who in the world is going to choose the $1400 option? Or the incredibly crippled $0 option that then requires $1400 to upgrade once you make your first $1000, leaving you down $400 dollars? No one. So they somehow gave Starter away for free yet still rendered it useless for attracting new customers.

This isn't even taking into account the anachronistic Delphi library model where everyone charges other Delphi users $300+ to use their library rather than making it open source. I can show you even simple projects that can be done for free with open source/freeware combos (such as VSCE plus free libraries on nuget, etc.) that spec out to $5000+ if one were to do them with Delphi!
Michael Thuma

Posts: 104
Registered: 1/30/00
Re: Limit of 1000 $ for Delphi Starter is ridiculuos
Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this thread Reply
  Posted: Feb 19, 2018 5:07 AM   in response to: Joseph Mitzen in response to: Joseph Mitzen
Free Software today acts as a substitute for property.

Once upon a time goods were equal in the market place. Later with beginning industrialization goods were split into investment goods (production goods - machines) and tools (low value fixed assets) and the price as a rule over thumb measure complexity was taken to separate both. One exception are cars (the former horse) and private housing.

Either you sell machines or tools. The difference is the price.

That's all.

The are consequences that arise from this which are beyond a discussion here.

Delphi or RS is not anything else but Delphi or RS. If you cannot serve the maximum then you have to create a shortage in order to avoid having to service the maximum number of customers. Which is pretty odd when looking at a class of goods which by their very nature reflect material goods once all possible customers are made. There is no marke place in industries especially when it comes ot consumption.

It's about pulling consumers in front of the distribution center and forcing to mother them.

It's easy. If you cannot sell for USD 500 try 5000. Maybe you can make more money. That's not EMB's fault, it's their choice left.


Joseph Mitzen wrote:
--
Delphi Programming is fun. Hilarious.
John David

Posts: 86
Registered: 9/5/16
Re: Limit of 1000 $ for Delphi Starter is ridiculuos
Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this thread Reply
  Posted: Feb 5, 2018 5:31 PM   in response to: Robert Triest in response to: Robert Triest
On 05/02/2018 13:53, Robert Triest wrote:
I think it's anyway not fair to compare EMB with Microsoft.

MS can offer a lot for free because they generate money with many tools like Office suite , SQL Database, Program Languages, Hardware, etc.

This is rubbish. Each department is a profit center and so they are
required to make a profit or else the CEO loses his job. That is how
big corporations operate.

Microsoft is successful because it is investing in good guidance docs
while EMB isn't.

Why should a relative small company like EMB create a starter version with everything free including Databases components, Command line
compiler and everything to create a professional program langauge. Where should they earn money with when they put every thing for
free in a starter edition?

If EMB is struggling then clearly it should just get out of the market
and let the big boys handle the products that customers need. Delphi
can be made open source and let hobbyists and enthusiasts develop it
further and create good documents to go with it.

Mind you, C# is open source which many people don't know. Microsoft is
investing heavily in Open Source products and more or less made its
own!! It is just a matter of time when we'll see Microsoft Linux!! with
Microsoft products preloaded and creating new market for its products.


Dan Barclay

Posts: 889
Registered: 11/9/03
Re: Limit of 1000 $ for Delphi Starter is ridiculuos
Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this thread Reply
  Posted: Feb 5, 2018 6:04 PM   in response to: John David in response to: John David
John David wrote:
On 05/02/2018 13:53, Robert Triest wrote:
I think it's anyway not fair to compare EMB with Microsoft.

MS can offer a lot for free because they generate money with many tools like Office suite , SQL Database, Program Languages, Hardware, etc.

This is rubbish. Each department is a profit center and so they are
required to make a profit or else the CEO loses his job. That is how
big corporations operate.

Unless things have changed, it is true in general that each department is a profit center. However, "developer tools" have a mission of focusing development on other MS platforms. In addition, if other departments "go rogue" and don't point customers back to other MS products you will see correction.

Dan
Joseph Mitzen

Posts: 392
Registered: 6/9/02
Re: Limit of 1000 $ for Delphi Starter is ridiculuos
Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this thread Reply
  Posted: Feb 5, 2018 8:04 PM   in response to: Dan Barclay in response to: Dan Barclay
Dan Barclay wrote:

Unless things have changed, it is true in general that each department is a profit center. However, "developer tools" have a mission of focusing development on other MS platforms.

The tools (including Office) are bringing in more money than the OS right now. Nadella isn't running the company with the idea that everything has to be Microsoft anymore. Hence Azure supporting Linux and I believe 1/3 of Azure instances are running Linux now instead of Windows. Nadella recognizes we live in a cross-platform world and is much more friendly towards open source and other ecosystems. Heck, thanks to its patent claims MS made more money from Android phone sales than it did from WinPhone. :-)

In addition, if other departments "go rogue" and don't point customers back to other MS products you will see correction.

Again, the cloud department hasn't gotten this memo. In fact, a few years ago the cloud folks announced a demo of a python notebook-style web data analysis tool on Reddit. In an exchange with one of their folks the person openly stated that Microsoft "doesn't have a good container solution right now" so they implemented it on Linux rather than Windows.

The biggest cash generator for Microsoft in the fourth quarter of 2015 was its server and cloud divisions.
So Windows must have been number two, right? No, that was gaming. There are a lot more Xboxes out there than you might think, and don’t forget that Microsoft recently bought Mojang, makers of Minecraft.
Surely Windows would be at least number three, though. Sorry; the answer is still no. That spot goes to Microsoft Office.
Down in fourth place, with just over 10% of Microsoft’s revenue, you’ll finally find Windows.
....What has happened, however, is that the desktop has become less important.
You see, Microsoft is well on its way to becoming a cloud and services company and not a desktop company. To quote my longtime writing buddy Preston Gralla, “Microsoft’s future is all about the cloud, so much so that one day Windows may become an
afterthought.”

https://www.computerworld.com/article/3041378/microsoft-windows/microsoft-doesn-t-need-windows-anymore.html

Microsoft’s future is in servers, services and the cloud. And what do all those run on? Ding! Ding! Ding! Open source and Linux.

Take a good hard look at Microsoft’s last quarter. Azure’s revenue grew by 116% year over year. Microsoft’s profit margin from its cloud platform? A whopping 49%.

Guess what. Four out of 10 server instances running on Azure are Linux. Their numbers are increasing by leaps and bounds. The foundation may be Windows Server, but the building is Linux.

Wim Coekaerts, until recently corporate vice president of Microsoft Enterprise Open Source Group, recently told me, “Satya [Nadella, Microsoft’s CEO] is very customer-centric. If [our customers] run Linux, and they often do, we want to make them happy.
We have to play in an open, heterogeneous world.” He added, “Microsoft actually uses a lot of Linux in-house. It’s no longer everything has to be run on Windows internally.” Microsoft is doing this, he said, because “we’re solving business problems and
we’re very pragmatic.”

There you have the keys to why it’s different this time. I can cite dozens of examples of how Microsoft is supporting one open-source project or another. That’s the specific of the real Microsoft change.

Microsoft realizes that Linux and open-source software have won. It knows that its customers want it, and it wants to make them happy. It’s really that simple.

https://www.computerworld.com/article/3144063/open-source-tools/open-source-has-won-and-microsoft-has-surrendered.html

From open sourcing .NET Core to porting Office to Android and buying (and open sourcing) Xamarin, it's a new Microsoft. They're playing in areas where they're not the 800-pound gorilla, so they need to play nicely with others, especially the 800-pound penguin.
Dave Nottage

Posts: 1,850
Registered: 1/7/00
Re: Limit of 1000 $ for Delphi Starter is ridiculuos
Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this thread Reply
  Posted: Feb 6, 2018 12:39 AM   in response to: Joseph Mitzen in response to: Joseph Mitzen
Joseph Mitzen wrote:

The tools (including Office) are bringing in more money than the OS right now.

The point was that development tools that are being given away cannot be bringing in any money. Unless Office is in
the same department, they cannot be a "profit center". Even if they were included, it nullifies the original argument
anyway.

--
Dave Nottage [MVP, TeamB]
Find hints, tips and tricks at Delphi Worlds blog: http://www.delphiworlds.com
Joseph Mitzen

Posts: 392
Registered: 6/9/02
Re: Limit of 1000 $ for Delphi Starter is ridiculuos
Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this thread Reply
  Posted: Feb 6, 2018 10:26 AM   in response to: Dave Nottage in response to: Dave Nottage
Dave Nottage wrote:

The point was that development tools that are being given away cannot be bringing in any money.

The point was exactly as was stated, " However, "developer tools" have a mission of focusing development on other MS platforms." MS is no longer attempting to create an OS monopoly via lock-in, embrace-extend-extinguish, etc. Heck, the fact that Visual Studio now targets Linux makes that clear.

Unless Office is in
the same department

Actually I believe it is, but I can't verify that right now.

, they cannot be a "profit center".

As I noted elsewhere, the development tools that are being given away are being given away to people who were never going to pay for it in the first place. If those users become larger, they'll want more licenses and will then be monetized. I'm sure JetBrains is making plenty of money from its UpSource code collaboration and review software even though the first ten user licenses are free (25 users is $1,300).
Rudy Velthuis (...


Posts: 7,731
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: Limit of 1000 $ for Delphi Starter is ridiculuos
Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this thread Reply
  Posted: Feb 7, 2018 12:40 PM   in response to: Joseph Mitzen in response to: Joseph Mitzen
Joseph Mitzen wrote:

Dave Nottage wrote:

The point was that development tools that are being given away
cannot be bringing in any money.

The point was exactly as was stated, " However, "developer tools"
have a mission of focusing development on other MS platforms." MS is
no longer attempting to create an OS monopoly via lock-in,

The fact they target other platforms too simply means they try to make
an extra buck off other platforms. What is so hard to understand about
that?

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"The primary duty of an exception handler is to get the error
out of the lap of the programmer and into the surprised face of
the user. Provided you keep this cardinal rule in mind, you
can't go far wrong." -- Verity Stob
Joseph Mitzen

Posts: 392
Registered: 6/9/02
Re: Limit of 1000 $ for Delphi Starter is ridiculuos
Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this thread Reply
  Posted: Feb 9, 2018 12:23 PM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB, MVP) wrote:

The point was exactly as was stated, " However, "developer tools"
have a mission of focusing development on other MS platforms." MS is
no longer attempting to create an OS monopoly via lock-in,

The fact they target other platforms too simply means they try to make
an extra buck off other platforms. What is so hard to understand about
that?

You're right that they're trying to make a buck off other platforms. But that contradicts the statement you quoted, that the dev tools are supposed to drive Windows sales. That they're no longer trying to force an MS/Windows monopoly on customers was my argument. They're not giving away copies of VSCE to drive Windows sales; they're giving them away because they need to compete with open source and for 1-5 dev shops the price advantage of open source alone makes it the obvious choice.

The problem here is that in a poll I saw on a Delphi blog, 70% of respondents said they worked in shops with 1-5 developers. Embarcadero has the mission of trying to sell enterprise price tags (which are several times higher than even average enterprise dev tool pricing) to a market segment that doesn't want to spend big bucks on dev tools and now doesn't need to. That's not an enviable position to be in.
Rudy Velthuis (...


Posts: 7,731
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: Limit of 1000 $ for Delphi Starter is ridiculuos
Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this thread Reply
  Posted: Feb 12, 2018 4:49 AM   in response to: Joseph Mitzen in response to: Joseph Mitzen
Joseph Mitzen wrote:

You're right that they're trying to make a buck off other platforms.
But that contradicts the statement you quoted, that the dev tools are
supposed to drive Windows sales.

No, no contradiction at all. The dev tools are their way to promote
all their main products, including Windows, Office and Azure.

And MS are not the only ones. Apple does the same, although their main
products are hardware, but proper software (cool apps) makes those
hardware products more popular. Apple's devtools are free and well
documented.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Government is actually the worst failure of civilized man.
There has never been a really good one, and even those that are
most tolerable are arbitrary, cruel, grasping and
unintelligent."
-- H. L. Mencken
Brandon Staggs

Posts: 683
Registered: 3/3/01
Re: Limit of 1000 $ for Delphi Starter is ridiculuos
Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this thread Reply
  Posted: Feb 6, 2018 8:07 AM   in response to: Dan Barclay in response to: Dan Barclay
"Dan Barclay" wrote on Mon, 5 Feb 2018 18:04:18 -0800:

Unless things have changed, it is true in general that each department is a profit center. However, "developer tools" have a mission of focusing development on other MS platforms. In addition, if other departments "go rogue" and don't point customers back to other MS products you will see correction.

Yes.

And besides, Delphi subscription, at least at the Pro level, is in
fact competitive with MS VS subscriptions at the same level. I know
because I have had both. That said, there is certain value in a pro
MSDN subscription that you couldn't get with Delphi -- namely access
to all of the MS operating systems.

--
Brandon Staggs
StudyLamp Software LLC
http://www.studylamp.com
Joseph Mitzen

Posts: 392
Registered: 6/9/02
Re: Limit of 1000 $ for Delphi Starter is ridiculuos
Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this thread Reply
  Posted: Feb 6, 2018 10:38 AM   in response to: Brandon Staggs in response to: Brandon Staggs
Brandon Staggs wrote:
"Dan Barclay" wrote on Mon, 5 Feb 2018 18:04:18 -0800:

Unless things have changed, it is true in general that each department is a profit center. However, "developer tools" have a mission of focusing development on other MS platforms. In addition, if other departments "go rogue" and don't point customers back to other MS products you will see correction.

Yes.

No. :-) Go tell this to the Azure folks or to the folks at Microsoft who proclaimed "Microsoft loves Linux!". Or explain why MS has joined the Linux Foundation. MS is no longer about forging an OS monopoly. They're about making customers happy, and their customers use open source and Linux.

And besides, Delphi subscription, at least at the Pro level, is in
fact competitive with MS VS subscriptions at the same level. I know
because I have had both.

Delphi Pro is $1400, Visual Studio - if you don't qualify for free pricing - is $500. However, Visual Studio also targets Linux with C++ and mobile via Xamarin. There are also no database restrictions. That puts it to at least the Delphi Enterprise level, which is $3500. The costs are in no way comparable. And unless you're a company that needs more than five copies, has over 250 PCs or makes more than one million dollars a year (i.e. not the average Delphi user) you don't pay anything.

I'm not sure how the costs are even remotely comparable, especially when one takes into account what you're actually getting in the box. Actually come to think of it Visual Studio now also offers a Jupyter notebook interactive environment for math and data analysis that can run R and Python, which adds a baby Matlab capability. And there's also Unity game engine development. And a real package manager with over 100K open source libraries available (GetIt has under 300 libraries, mostly trials of paid software). Comparing it to Delphi Pro is like comparing apples to an apple orchard.
Brandon Staggs

Posts: 683
Registered: 3/3/01
Re: Limit of 1000 $ for Delphi Starter is ridiculuos
Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this thread Reply
  Posted: Feb 6, 2018 12:02 PM   in response to: Joseph Mitzen in response to: Joseph Mitzen
"Joseph Mitzen" wrote on Tue, 6 Feb 2018 10:38:39 -0800:

No. :-) Go tell this to the Azure folks or to the folks at Microsoft who proclaimed "Microsoft loves Linux!". Or explain why MS has joined the Linux Foundation. MS is no longer about forging an OS monopoly. They're about making customers happy, and their customers use open source and Linux.

None of that contradicts what has been said. Azure is a Microsoft
service. "Their customers" is the whole point. Visual Studio is one
cog in the huge wheel of Microsoft's business strategy.

--
Brandon Staggs
StudyLamp Software LLC
http://www.studylamp.com
Joseph Mitzen

Posts: 392
Registered: 6/9/02
Re: Limit of 1000 $ for Delphi Starter is ridiculuos
Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this thread Reply
  Posted: Feb 9, 2018 12:27 PM   in response to: Brandon Staggs in response to: Brandon Staggs
Brandon Staggs wrote:

None of that contradicts what has been said. Azure is a Microsoft
service.

Right; a service that is not trying to drive customers towards other MS products - namely, Windows vs. Linux.

"Their customers" is the whole point. Visual Studio is one
cog in the huge wheel of Microsoft's business strategy.

And said strategy is no longer a drive to funnel customers into a Microsoft-only monopoly. They've literally said this.

MS is a red herring here anyway; EMBT competitors JetBrains and RemObjects are also giving fully functional products away for free, so the reason can't be Microsoft-centric.
Brandon Staggs

Posts: 683
Registered: 3/3/01
Re: Limit of 1000 $ for Delphi Starter is ridiculuos
Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this thread Reply
  Posted: Feb 9, 2018 2:55 PM   in response to: Joseph Mitzen in response to: Joseph Mitzen
"Joseph Mitzen" wrote on Fri, 9 Feb 2018 12:27:43 -0800:

None of that contradicts what has been said. Azure is a Microsoft
service.

Right; a service that is not trying to drive customers towards other MS products - namely, Windows vs. Linux.

You're missing the point -- they are trying to get people to move TO
Azure. They aren't giving away Visual Studio to try to get people to
move OFF Windows and TO Linux. Of course their strategy is different
now than it has been in the past -- but the goal is still the same.
Get more people spending money on MS stuff.

"Their customers" is the whole point. Visual Studio is one
cog in the huge wheel of Microsoft's business strategy.

And said strategy is no longer a drive to funnel customers into a Microsoft-only monopoly. They've literally said this.

You are not saying anything. Their strategy is to keep and acquire
customers. VS fits into that strategy.

MS is a red herring here anyway; EMBT competitors JetBrains and RemObjects are also giving fully functional products away for free, so the reason can't be Microsoft-centric.

I don't know much about JetBrains, but I was a RemObjects customer.
Their free offerings were virtually useless, and I ended up finding
their paid offerings to be just as... un-needed. Of course, YMMV.

--
Brandon Staggs
StudyLamp Software LLC
http://www.studylamp.com
Brandon Staggs

Posts: 683
Registered: 3/3/01
Re: Limit of 1000 $ for Delphi Starter is ridiculuos
Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this thread Reply
  Posted: Feb 6, 2018 12:05 PM   in response to: Joseph Mitzen in response to: Joseph Mitzen
"Joseph Mitzen" wrote on Tue, 6 Feb 2018 10:38:39 -0800:

The costs are in no way comparable.

I compared them. I pay my Delphi subscription just as I have for a
decade. I dropped my MSDN one.

--
Brandon Staggs
StudyLamp Software LLC
http://www.studylamp.com
Joseph Mitzen

Posts: 392
Registered: 6/9/02
Re: Limit of 1000 $ for Delphi Starter is ridiculuos
Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this thread Reply
  Posted: Feb 9, 2018 12:29 PM   in response to: Brandon Staggs in response to: Brandon Staggs
Brandon Staggs wrote:
"Joseph Mitzen" wrote on Tue, 6 Feb 2018 10:38:39 -0800:

The costs are in no way comparable.

I compared them. I pay my Delphi subscription just as I have for a
decade. I dropped my MSDN one.

So would you care to explain to us how a Delphi Pro subscription compares favorably to Visual Studio?
John David

Posts: 86
Registered: 9/5/16
Re: Limit of 1000 $ for Delphi Starter is ridiculuos
Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this thread Reply
  Posted: Feb 6, 2018 5:02 PM   in response to: Joseph Mitzen in response to: Joseph Mitzen
On 06/02/2018 18:38, Joseph Mitzen wrote:

No. :-) Go tell this to the Azure folks or to the folks at Microsoft who proclaimed "Microsoft loves Linux!". Or explain why MS has joined the Linux Foundation. MS is no longer about forging an OS monopoly. They're about making customers happy, and their customers use open source and Linux.


But there might be a hidden agenda by Microsoft joining the Linux
Foundation. Microsoft will try to influence how they operate and
eventually, Linux won't be free!!!!.

Microsoft wants to make money and it will try anything possible to
conquer the global market.
Joseph Mitzen

Posts: 392
Registered: 6/9/02
Re: Limit of 1000 $ for Delphi Starter is ridiculuos
Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this thread Reply
  Posted: Feb 9, 2018 12:33 PM   in response to: John David in response to: John David
John David wrote:
On 06/02/2018 18:38, Joseph Mitzen wrote:

No. :-) Go tell this to the Azure folks or to the folks at Microsoft who proclaimed "Microsoft loves Linux!". Or explain why MS has joined the Linux Foundation. MS is no longer about forging an OS monopoly. They're about making customers happy, and their customers use open source and Linux.


But there might be a hidden agenda by Microsoft joining the Linux
Foundation. Microsoft will try to influence how they operate and
eventually, Linux won't be free!!!!.

That's impossible. Microsoft can't change the Linux kernel license. You can embrace, and even extend, open source, but you can't extinguish it. MS realizes this and has taken the "if you can't beat them, join them" approach under Nadella. They've even become a major contributor to the kernel code! (Mostly code to make Linux run nicely under Hyper-V)

Microsoft wants to make money and it will try anything possible to
conquer the global market.

It does want to make money, but Nadella realizes they're not the 800-pound gorilla in servers or mobile or the cloud. There's an 800-pound penguin there, so they have to play nicely with it now.
Rudy Velthuis (...


Posts: 7,731
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: Limit of 1000 $ for Delphi Starter is ridiculuos
Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this thread Reply
  Posted: Feb 12, 2018 4:54 AM   in response to: Joseph Mitzen in response to: Joseph Mitzen
Joseph Mitzen wrote:

John David wrote:
On 06/02/2018 18:38, Joseph Mitzen wrote:

No. :-) Go tell this to the Azure folks or to the folks at
Microsoft who proclaimed "Microsoft loves Linux!". Or explain why
MS has joined the Linux Foundation. MS is no longer about forging
an OS monopoly. They're about making customers happy, and their
customers use open source and Linux.


But there might be a hidden agenda by Microsoft joining the Linux
Foundation. Microsoft will try to influence how they operate and
eventually, Linux won't be free!!!!.

That's impossible. Microsoft can't change the Linux kernel license.
You can embrace, and even extend, open source, but you can't
extinguish it.

But they could make a version that is so compelling that the other
branches become more or less obsolete. <g>

FWIW, I'm not saying that they are doing that. I actually doubt it.
--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"If god created us in his image we have certainly returned the
compliment."
-- Voltaire
Rudy Velthuis (...


Posts: 7,731
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: Limit of 1000 $ for Delphi Starter is ridiculuos
Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this thread Reply
  Posted: Feb 5, 2018 2:40 PM   in response to: John David in response to: John David
John David wrote:

On 03/02/2018 13:23, Radu Mircea Capota wrote:
All we want to have more younger people who joins the Delphi
Community. It is not my case but ...

Suppose i am a young developer who want to build a software
company... Suppose i know the advantages of Delphi for developing
Windows Applications... Suppose i don't have much money but i have
a big determination .

Now, what should i choose for Windows Application development: C
Sharp or Delphi Starter? The limit of Delphi Starter of 1000$
revenue doesn't help me much even in a poor country.

So please Embarcadero/Idera raise this ridiculous limit of 1000 $
to 10 000 $ total revenue and we will win much more younger people
to the Delphi Community.

I think the major problem with Delphi is that there is no single body
that is able to say it is ISO compliant or whatever like C#, C and
C++.


It is not and has never been. But then, who cares?

Oh, and Delphi has been said to be dying since, well, very shortly
after its release. <shrug>
--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"... the designer of a new system must not only be the implementor
and the first large-scale user; the designer should also write
the first user manual. ... If I had not participated fully in
all these activities, literally hundreds of improvements would
never have been made, because I would never have thought of
them or perceived why they were important." -- Donald Knuth
Joseph Mitzen

Posts: 392
Registered: 6/9/02
Re: Limit of 1000 $ for Delphi Starter is ridiculuos
Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this thread Reply
  Posted: Feb 5, 2018 8:45 PM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB, MVP) wrote:

It is not and has never been. But then, who cares?

People who actually depend on their software and want to be assured it won't disappear. I believe back in the late 1970s all of the chip fab companies unwittingly ended up sourcing their diamond blades from the same vendor. Worse, none of them knew that the company was just +one man working out of his garage+! When he got sick and couldn't produce blades, it actually impacted the global IC market! Nowadays companies make sure to have multiple sources for supplies.

Vendor lock-in is to be avoided religiously.

So, as to who cares: Facebook, Google, IBM, Netflix, Apple, Paypal and every other major company, none of whom have decided to code their critical infrastructure with a proprietary language with no standard, developed behind closed doors with no formal policy regarding compatibility, that has changed hands four times in ten years.

Oh, and Delphi has been said to be dying since, well, very shortly
after its release. <shrug>

And that's exactly what happened. Today it's a niche product used to maintain legacy code a la COBOL and has no impact or relevance in the modern development world. People under age 40 don't even know what it is. MS or JetBrains don't lie awake at night worrying about what Embarcadero/Idera might do next; dev tools aren't scrambling to copy new cutting-edge language features appearing in Delphi. The flow of employees between Embarcadero and Google is one way; the wrong way for Delphi. Kids aren't getting out of college and hoping to land a sweet internship at Embarcadero to work on next-gen technology that will change the world. If Delphi completely disappeared tomorrow the world wouldn't notice, and that's sad. It didn't have to be this way. One only has to look at JetBrains and RemObjects to see the paths Delphi could have taken. Heck, CodeGear and Nick Hodges had a more ambitious and forward-looking plan than anything that ultimately materialized out of Embarcadero. And Embarcadero's execution has been horrible, developing too late and shipping too soon, treating their customers and partners as the enemy.

Rudy Velthuis (...


Posts: 7,731
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: Limit of 1000 $ for Delphi Starter is ridiculuos
Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this thread Reply
  Posted: Feb 13, 2018 3:59 PM   in response to: Joseph Mitzen in response to: Joseph Mitzen
Joseph Mitzen wrote:

Rudy Velthuis (TeamB, MVP) wrote:

It is not and has never been. But then, who cares?

People who actually depend on their software and want to be assured
it won't disappear.

How does a committee have anything to do with that? How would a
committee guarantee the product stays alive? Note that Delphi is
**much** more than just a plain language these days.

And look at ISO Pascal: Who uses it? If it were a problem that Delphi
is not committee-controlled (<shudder>), why is ISO Pascal not much
more popular?

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Don't let it end like this. Tell them I said something."
-- last words of Pancho Villa (1877-1923)
Joseph Mitzen

Posts: 392
Registered: 6/9/02
Re: Limit of 1000 $ for Delphi Starter is ridiculuos
Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this thread Reply
  Posted: Feb 5, 2018 8:46 PM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB, MVP) wrote:

It is not and has never been. But then, who cares?

People who actually depend on their software and want to be assured it won't disappear. I believe back in the late 1970s all of the chip fab companies unwittingly ended up sourcing their diamond blades from the same vendor. Worse, none of them knew that the company was just +one man working out of his garage+! When he got sick and couldn't produce blades, it actually impacted the global IC market! Nowadays companies make sure to have multiple sources for supplies.

Vendor lock-in is to be avoided religiously.

So, as to who cares: Facebook, Google, IBM, Netflix, Apple, Paypal and every other major company, none of whom have decided to code their critical infrastructure with a proprietary language with no standard, developed behind closed doors with no formal policy regarding compatibility, that has changed hands four times in ten years.

Oh, and Delphi has been said to be dying since, well, very shortly
after its release. <shrug>

And that's exactly what happened. Today it's a niche product used to maintain legacy code a la COBOL and has no impact or relevance in the modern development world. People under age 40 don't even know what it is. MS or JetBrains don't lie awake at night worrying about what Embarcadero/Idera might do next; dev tools aren't scrambling to copy new cutting-edge language features appearing in Delphi. The flow of employees between Embarcadero and Google is one way; the wrong way for Delphi. Kids aren't getting out of college and hoping to land a sweet internship at Embarcadero to work on next-gen technology that will change the world. If Delphi completely disappeared tomorrow the world wouldn't notice, and that's sad. It didn't have to be this way. One only has to look at JetBrains and RemObjects to see the paths Delphi could have taken. Heck, CodeGear and Nick Hodges had a more ambitious and forward-looking plan than anything that ultimately materialized out of Embarcadero. And Embarcadero's execution has been horrible, developing too late and shipping too soon, treating their customers and partners as the enemy.

Radu Mircea Cap...

Posts: 27
Registered: 1/9/10
Re: Limit of 1000 $ for Delphi Starter is ridiculuos
Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this thread Reply
  Posted: Feb 8, 2018 12:33 PM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Delphi will probably die when Win32 API will die.
But not before .:)
Until then Delphi has a blood pressure of 120/80.


Rudy Velthuis (TeamB, MVP) wrote:
John David wrote:

On 03/02/2018 13:23, Radu Mircea Capota wrote:
All we want to have more younger people who joins the Delphi
Community. It is not my case but ...

Suppose i am a young developer who want to build a software
company... Suppose i know the advantages of Delphi for developing
Windows Applications... Suppose i don't have much money but i have
a big determination .

Now, what should i choose for Windows Application development: C
Sharp or Delphi Starter? The limit of Delphi Starter of 1000$
revenue doesn't help me much even in a poor country.

So please Embarcadero/Idera raise this ridiculous limit of 1000 $
to 10 000 $ total revenue and we will win much more younger people
to the Delphi Community.

I think the major problem with Delphi is that there is no single body
that is able to say it is ISO compliant or whatever like C#, C and
C++.


It is not and has never been. But then, who cares?

Oh, and Delphi has been said to be dying since, well, very shortly
after its release. <shrug>
--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"... the designer of a new system must not only be the implementor
and the first large-scale user; the designer should also write
the first user manual. ... If I had not participated fully in
all these activities, literally hundreds of improvements would
never have been made, because I would never have thought of
them or perceived why they were important." -- Donald Knuth

Edited by: Radu Mircea Capota on Feb 12, 2018 5:50 AM
Rudy Velthuis (...


Posts: 7,731
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: Limit of 1000 $ for Delphi Starter is ridiculuos
Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this thread Reply
  Posted: Feb 12, 2018 4:57 AM   in response to: Radu Mircea Cap... in response to: Radu Mircea Cap...
Radu Mircea Capota wrote:

It is clear for all of us , Delphi will probably die when Win32 API
will die.

Sorry, but that is not clear "for all of us". I doubt you can speak for
all of us, and certainly not for me.

I guess that Delphi can survive without Win32. It would not surprise me
that they could easily produce a 64 bit version, or one that runs on
other platforms, if necessary.

But I don't see Windows vanish anytime soon. Probably 32 bit Windows
will slowly die out, but 64 bit Windows: not anytime soon.
--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Mother-in-law = A woman who destroys her son-in-law's peace of
mind by giving him a piece of hers." -- Anonymous.
Radu Mircea Cap...

Posts: 27
Registered: 1/9/10
Re: Limit of 1000 $ for Delphi Starter is ridiculuos
Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this thread Reply
  Posted: Feb 12, 2018 5:19 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Please apologize me. It was a mistake and i can speak just for me of course.

If Delphi will survive after Win32 will die believe me i will very glad.

I am not the person who want to see Delphi dying.
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB, MVP) wrote:
Radu Mircea Capota wrote:

It is clear for all of us , Delphi will probably die when Win32 API
will die.

Sorry, but that is not clear "for all of us". I doubt you can speak for
all of us, and certainly not for me.

I guess that Delphi can survive without Win32. It would not surprise me
that they could easily produce a 64 bit version, or one that runs on
other platforms, if necessary.

But I don't see Windows vanish anytime soon. Probably 32 bit Windows
will slowly die out, but 64 bit Windows: not anytime soon.
--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Mother-in-law = A woman who destroys her son-in-law's peace of
mind by giving him a piece of hers." -- Anonymous.
Rudy Velthuis (...


Posts: 7,731
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: Limit of 1000 $ for Delphi Starter is ridiculuos
Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this thread Reply
  Posted: Feb 13, 2018 4:02 PM   in response to: Radu Mircea Cap... in response to: Radu Mircea Cap...
Radu Mircea Capota wrote:

Please apologize me. It was a mistake and i can speak just for me of
course.

If Delphi will survive after Win32 will die believe me i will very
glad.

I don't see why not. It also survived the death of Win 3.1, those days.
Delphi is not pinned on Win32. Actually, it could probably easily be
made to run on Win64.
--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Puritanism: The haunting fear that someone, somewhere, may be
happy." -- H. L. Mencken
Brandon Staggs

Posts: 683
Registered: 3/3/01
Re: Limit of 1000 $ for Delphi Starter is ridiculuos
Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this thread Reply
  Posted: Feb 13, 2018 6:12 PM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
"Rudy Velthuis" wrote on Tue, 13 Feb 2018 16:02:36 -0800:

Radu Mircea Capota wrote:

Please apologize me. It was a mistake and i can speak just for me of
course.

If Delphi will survive after Win32 will die believe me i will very
glad.

I don't see why not. It also survived the death of Win 3.1, those days.
Delphi is not pinned on Win32. Actually, it could probably easily be
made to run on Win64.

I understood him to be referencing the Win32/Win64 desktop API in
general. He is right. Delphi's strength is Win32/VCL. (Win64 is
implied and obviously already supported.) If Win32/64 dies, Delphi
won't have a reason to exist.

Maybe FMX changes that some day, I don't know.

--
Brandon Staggs
StudyLamp Software LLC
http://www.studylamp.com
Rudy Velthuis (...


Posts: 7,731
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: Limit of 1000 $ for Delphi Starter is ridiculuos
Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this thread Reply
  Posted: Feb 5, 2018 2:40 PM   in response to: Radu Mircea Cap... in response to: Radu Mircea Cap...
Radu Mircea Capota wrote:

All we want to have more younger people who joins the Delphi
Community. It is not my case but ...

Suppose i am a young developer who want to build a software company...
Suppose i know the advantages of Delphi for developing Windows
Applications... Suppose i don't have much money but i have a big
determination .

Then you start cheap, until you can afford the unlimited SKU (Pro and
upwards).

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"It's clearly a budget. It's got a lot of numbers in it."
-- George W. Bush

Joseph Mitzen

Posts: 392
Registered: 6/9/02
Re: Limit of 1000 $ for Delphi Starter is ridiculuos
Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this thread Reply
  Posted: Feb 5, 2018 8:55 PM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB, MVP) wrote:
Radu Mircea Capota wrote:

Then you start cheap, until you can afford the unlimited SKU (Pro and
upwards).

To start cheap, they'll simply use a different tool/platform. And once they do so, they're not going to go buy Delphi SKUs and port all of their code over to it. When you lose these devs, you're going to lose them forever. They're going to get locked into another language.

Heck, I've seen articles about analyzing how a score is computed in a football video game that would cost $3000 to do in Delphi! Heck, worse, because TeeChart Pro ($599 with source) can't even do the violin plot the article used (unlike open source R or Python). This eliminates Delphi as a tool regular people can use to solve problems on a daily basis. The cost eliminates small developers, and the obscurity and uncertainty on a single-vendor proprietary solution with nothing unique to offer eliminates enterprises. Something's out of whack with EMBT's strategy. It's like a car with Rolls Royce prices and a Honda Civic interior with Yugo build quality.
Radu Mircea Cap...

Posts: 27
Registered: 1/9/10
Re: Limit of 1000 $ for Delphi Starter is ridiculuos
Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this thread Reply
  Posted: Feb 8, 2018 12:42 PM   in response to: Joseph Mitzen in response to: Joseph Mitzen
That is the point . They will choose something else . If the revenue limit is 10 000 USD then they will have time to earn some money and after that they will pay the license.

Joseph Mitzen wrote:
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB, MVP) wrote:
Radu Mircea Capota wrote:

Then you start cheap, until you can afford the unlimited SKU (Pro and
upwards).

To start cheap, they'll simply use a different tool/platform. And once they do so, they're not going to go buy Delphi SKUs and port all of their code over to it. When you lose these devs, you're going to lose them forever. They're going to get locked into another language.

Heck, I've seen articles about analyzing how a score is computed in a football video game that would cost $3000 to do in Delphi! Heck, worse, because TeeChart Pro ($599 with source) can't even do the violin plot the article used (unlike open source R or Python). This eliminates Delphi as a tool regular people can use to solve problems on a daily basis. The cost eliminates small developers, and the obscurity and uncertainty on a single-vendor proprietary solution with nothing unique to offer eliminates enterprises. Something's out of whack with EMBT's strategy. It's like a car with Rolls Royce prices and a Honda Civic interior with Yugo build quality.
Rudy Velthuis (...


Posts: 7,731
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: Limit of 1000 $ for Delphi Starter is ridiculuos
Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this thread Reply
  Posted: Feb 12, 2018 5:04 AM   in response to: Radu Mircea Cap... in response to: Radu Mircea Cap...
Radu Mircea Capota wrote:

That is the point . They will choose something else

The decision to use Delphi or something else was probably made well
before that. If they buy something, they will take a look if they want
it, i.e. if they like the language and the libraries.

And once they were determined to use Delphi, I doubt the $1000 limit
would scare anyone off.
--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Wagner's music is better than it sounds."
-- Mark Twain (1835-1910)
Radu Mircea Cap...

Posts: 27
Registered: 1/9/10
Re: Limit of 1000 $ for Delphi Starter is ridiculuos
Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this thread Reply
  Posted: Feb 12, 2018 5:46 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Starter should help from financial point of view the young people who want to start a business.
Doesn't help them to much when after 1000 USD revenue they must pay 1770 Euro.

If they don't have this amount at the revenue limit then they are in trouble.

Rudy Velthuis (TeamB, MVP) wrote:
Radu Mircea Capota wrote:

That is the point . They will choose something else

The decision to use Delphi or something else was probably made well
before that. If they buy something, they will take a look if they want
it, i.e. if they like the language and the libraries.

And once they were determined to use Delphi, I doubt the $1000 limit
would scare anyone off.
--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Wagner's music is better than it sounds."
-- Mark Twain (1835-1910)
Markus Humm

Posts: 5,113
Registered: 11/9/03
Re: Limit of 1000 $ for Delphi Starter is ridiculuos
Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this thread Reply
  Posted: Mar 16, 2018 9:17 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB, MVP) wrote:
Radu Mircea Capota wrote:

That is the point . They will choose something else

The decision to use Delphi or something else was probably made well
before that. If they buy something, they will take a look if they want
it, i.e. if they like the language and the libraries.

And once they were determined to use Delphi, I doubt the $1000 limit
would scare anyone off.
--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Wagner's music is better than it sounds."
-- Mark Twain (1835-1910)

It would be nice to have some statistical data about how many people download (and register) starter and how many
of those convert to pro or higher within the next 1-2 years.

Another thing not discussed right now is, that EMBT finally got approval from management to offer some really cheap
or even free (don't remember specific terms) class licences where students can install a copy on their own equipment.

While that's only a start it's a good direction. The data I got presented last spring was for Germany and over 200
educational institutions already made use of it. The programme was about 1/2 years old back then.

Greetings

Markus
Rudy Velthuis (...


Posts: 7,731
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: Limit of 1000 $ for Delphi Starter is ridiculuos
Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this thread Reply
  Posted: Feb 12, 2018 4:59 AM   in response to: Joseph Mitzen in response to: Joseph Mitzen
Joseph Mitzen wrote:

Rudy Velthuis (TeamB, MVP) wrote:
Radu Mircea Capota wrote:

Then you start cheap, until you can afford the unlimited SKU (Pro
and upwards).

To start cheap, they'll simply use a different tool/platform.

Such as?
--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Talk is cheap. Show me the code."
-- Linus Torvalds
Joseph Mitzen

Posts: 392
Registered: 6/9/02
Re: Limit of 1000 $ for Delphi Starter is ridiculuos
Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this thread Reply
  Posted: Feb 18, 2018 12:31 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB, MVP) wrote:

Such as?

Everything else in existence, basically. Take your pick, from Visual Studio to Android Studio to Xcode to Jetbrains' all-products subscription (which is half price for start-ups, and they even have monthly pricing available). Or if they're like the average 13-year-old today, they'll slap Linux Mint or Arch Linux onto a PC and in 20 minutes have every compiler and interpreter imaginable for free. The last time I took a poll on Google Plus' programming community, only 10% of respondents said they were currently using a proprietary language/IDE for development. Open source has won.
Radu Mircea Cap...

Posts: 27
Registered: 1/9/10
Re: Limit of 1000 $ for Delphi Starter is ridiculuos
Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this thread Reply
  Posted: Feb 8, 2018 12:38 PM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
How to start cheap?Choosing Visual Studio?:)

Starting with the Starter is not an option because 1000 USD revenue limit not even cover the price of the Pro Version.

Rudy Velthuis (TeamB, MVP) wrote:
Radu Mircea Capota wrote:

All we want to have more younger people who joins the Delphi
Community. It is not my case but ...

Suppose i am a young developer who want to build a software company...
Suppose i know the advantages of Delphi for developing Windows
Applications... Suppose i don't have much money but i have a big
determination .

Then you start cheap, until you can afford the unlimited SKU (Pro and
upwards).

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"It's clearly a budget. It's got a lot of numbers in it."
-- George W. Bush

Rudy Velthuis (...


Posts: 7,731
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: Limit of 1000 $ for Delphi Starter is ridiculuos
Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this thread Reply
  Posted: Feb 12, 2018 5:08 AM   in response to: Radu Mircea Cap... in response to: Radu Mircea Cap...
Radu Mircea Capota wrote:

Then you start cheap, until you can afford the unlimited SKU (Pro
and upwards).

How to start cheap?Choosing Visual Studio?:)

Starting with the Starter is not an option because 1000 USD revenue
limit not even cover the price of the Pro Version.

1. Please do not top post:
http://rvelthuis.de/articles/articles-quoting.html

A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing on Usenet and in e-mail?

2. Yes, using Delphi Starter. If people choose to use Object Pascal,
then a limit of $1000 won't scare them off.
--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Chaos is found in greatest abundance wherever order is being
sought. It always defeats order, because it is better organized."
-- Terry Pratchett (Interesting Times)
Roy Lambert

Posts: 40
Registered: 10/21/99
Re: Limit of 1000 $ for Delphi Starter is ridiculuos
Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this thread Reply
  Posted: Feb 12, 2018 7:35 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy

I've been staying out of this because I've stayed on D2006 but this

2. Yes, using Delphi Starter. If people choose to use Object Pascal,
then a limit of $1000 won't scare them off.

Implies either that the limit is well hidden so people don't see it or that they will ignore financial reality in making a product selection.

I don't think either is true.

I'm guessing that anyone evaluating Delphi will look at the feature matrix for the different editions and their decision will be made on those prices UNLESS the Starter fulfills their needs then it will be a toss up between ignore the $1,000 limit or build the cost of a next level SKU into their budget.

Roy
Nico Aragon

Posts: 4
Registered: 3/16/00
Re: Limit of 1000 $ for Delphi Starter is ridiculuos
Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this thread Reply
  Posted: Feb 6, 2018 8:52 AM   in response to: Radu Mircea Cap... in response to: Radu Mircea Cap...
Hi Radu,

Radu Mircea Capota wrote:
All we want to have more younger people who joins the Delphi Community.

That would be nice, but it seems impossible. It's difficult to say if young people won't come to Delphi because Embarcadero lacks an entry product or if they haven't an entry product because they are convinced no young developer would choose Delphi anyway. Outcome is the same: Starter is a no-starter and we are collectively growing very old.

Frankly, if I was starting now there's no chance I would even try Delphi now. There are so many free tools today with plenty of doc. online! Why would someone get in vendor lock-in without a legacy to save?

salu2

Nico
Radu Mircea Cap...

Posts: 27
Registered: 1/9/10
Re: Limit of 1000 $ for Delphi Starter is ridiculuos
Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this thread Reply
  Posted: Feb 8, 2018 12:55 PM   in response to: Nico Aragon in response to: Nico Aragon
Hi Nico

for Windows Development Delphi is the same great product as in the past , actually much better.

The young people could be classified in 2 parts:
- young people who want to learn a language and after that to be hired by a company. They will not start today with Delphi because are not too many offers to work in Delphi
- young people who want to start a software company. They need a better offer as the Starter , perhaps the Pro Version should be offered as Starter with a revenue limit of 10 000 USD .
They must be also convinced that developing Windows software applications in Delphi is really very fast. Here perhaps Embarcadero must do something on the web site to convince them.

Nico Aragon wrote:
Hi Radu,

Radu Mircea Capota wrote:
All we want to have more younger people who joins the Delphi Community.

That would be nice, but it seems impossible. It's difficult to say if young people won't come to Delphi because Embarcadero lacks an entry product or if they haven't an entry product because they are convinced no young developer would choose Delphi anyway. Outcome is the same: Starter is a no-starter and we are collectively growing very old.

Frankly, if I was starting now there's no chance I would even try Delphi now. There are so many free tools today with plenty of doc. online! Why would someone get in vendor lock-in without a legacy to save?

salu2

Nico
Jeremy North

Posts: 402
Registered: 9/20/99
Re: Limit of 1000 $ for Delphi Starter is ridiculuos
Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this thread Reply
  Posted: Feb 6, 2018 7:51 PM   in response to: Radu Mircea Cap... in response to: Radu Mircea Cap...
Radu Mircea Capota wrote:
All we want to have more younger people who joins the Delphi Community.
It is not my case but ...

Suppose i am a young developer who want to build a software company...
Suppose i know the advantages of Delphi for developing Windows Applications...
Suppose i don't have much money but i have a big determination .

Now, what should i choose for Windows Application development: C Sharp or Delphi Starter?
The limit of Delphi Starter of 1000$ revenue doesn't help me much even in a poor country.

So please Embarcadero/Idera raise this ridiculous limit of 1000 $ to 10 000 $ total revenue and we will win much more younger people to the Delphi Community.

Are young developers actually wanting to create a windows application? I'm not too sure about that.
John David

Posts: 86
Registered: 9/5/16
Re: Limit of 1000 $ for Delphi Starter is ridiculuos
Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this thread Reply
  Posted: Feb 6, 2018 8:06 PM   in response to: Jeremy North in response to: Jeremy North
On 07/02/2018 03:51, Jeremy North wrote:
Radu Mircea Capota wrote:
All we want to have more younger people who joins the Delphi Community.
It is not my case but ...

Suppose i am a young developer who want to build a software company...
Suppose i know the advantages of Delphi for developing Windows Applications...
Suppose i don't have much money but i have a big determination .

Now, what should i choose for Windows Application development: C Sharp or Delphi Starter?
The limit of Delphi Starter of 1000$ revenue doesn't help me much even in a poor country.

So please Embarcadero/Idera raise this ridiculous limit of 1000 $ to 10 000 $ total revenue and we will win much more younger people to the Delphi Community.

Are young developers actually wanting to create a windows application? I'm not too sure about that.

Why not?

Windows is a very popular operating system and you can't find many
console apps running on windows. On Linux perhaps but on Windows it is
always a Form based App.
Radu Mircea Cap...

Posts: 27
Registered: 1/9/10
Re: Limit of 1000 $ for Delphi Starter is ridiculuos
Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this thread Reply
  Posted: Feb 8, 2018 1:25 PM   in response to: Jeremy North in response to: Jeremy North
Of course , the main target of the applications still remains Windows .
I don't think that exists a country where the majority of used OS are MacOS or Linux.

Jeremy North wrote:
Radu Mircea Capota wrote:
All we want to have more younger people who joins the Delphi Community.
It is not my case but ...

Suppose i am a young developer who want to build a software company...
Suppose i know the advantages of Delphi for developing Windows Applications...
Suppose i don't have much money but i have a big determination .

Now, what should i choose for Windows Application development: C Sharp or Delphi Starter?
The limit of Delphi Starter of 1000$ revenue doesn't help me much even in a poor country.

So please Embarcadero/Idera raise this ridiculous limit of 1000 $ to 10 000 $ total revenue and we will win much more younger people to the Delphi Community.

Are young developers actually wanting to create a windows application? I'm not too sure about that.
Joseph Mitzen

Posts: 392
Registered: 6/9/02
Re: Limit of 1000 $ for Delphi Starter is ridiculuos
Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this thread Reply
  Posted: Feb 17, 2018 10:41 PM   in response to: Radu Mircea Cap... in response to: Radu Mircea Cap...
Radu Mircea Capota wrote:
Of course , the main target of the applications still remains Windows .
I don't think that exists a country where the majority of used OS are MacOS or Linux.

Young developers are often targeting the Web or mobile - and those only rarely are based on Windows.

A country might not exist where OS X or Linux dominate, but there are certain types of applications or types of programming where other OSes dominate. For instance, the current rage in machine learning is a neural network technique called "deep learning" that powers Google self-driving cars, among other things. Google released an open source library that can be used to create deep learning networks - it took more than a year for this to be ported to Windows from Linux. Facebook and Amazon have released their own deep learning tools; I'm not sure about Amazon but I know that as of today Facebook's library still will not run on Windows. Doing modern machine learning on Windows can be tough. Similarly, Linux dominates on servers and hence server-oriented applications.
Soeren Muehlbauer

Posts: 26
Registered: 11/29/99
Re: Limit of 1000 $ for Delphi Starter is ridiculuos [Edit]
Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this thread Reply
  Posted: Feb 16, 2018 2:11 AM   in response to: Radu Mircea Cap... in response to: Radu Mircea Cap...
Hi,

Suppose i am a young developer who want to build a software company...
Suppose i know the advantages of Delphi for developing Windows Applications...
Suppose i don't have much money but i have a big determination .

Now, what should i choose for Windows Application development: C Sharp or Delphi Starter?

I'm a delphi user since delphi 2. If I currently had to decide which
development tool I would use to build a windows application I would
clearly tend to Visual Studio (Community Edition). You get a full
featured IDE, compilers. I would use C# (or even C++) because

- the C# language is actively developed, lately based on user voice.
- the C# language is much more intuitive. Samples?

* lambda (anon meths)
* property declaration

- WPF/UWP is much more mature then the VCL and even FMX
- You can run applications on many, many platforms (using .NET core) -
UI is also possible (eg with AvaloniaUI)

So in the end it's clear that if you are not a long term delphi fan boy
you will use any other tooling which is available instead of delphi.
This is sad, really sad.

Soeren
Gabor Boros

Posts: 3
Registered: 10/22/07
Re: Limit of 1000 $ for Delphi Starter is ridiculuos [Edit]
Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this thread Reply
  Posted: Feb 25, 2018 3:35 AM   in response to: Radu Mircea Cap... in response to: Radu Mircea Cap...
2018. 02. 13. 15:12 keltezéssel, Radu Mircea Capota írta:
The limit of Delphi Starter of 1000$ revenue doesn't help me much even in a poor country.

I think is a good solution if a Standard SKU exists between Starter a
Professional. Windows target only, all code editor features, base
TDataSet things and without FMX, dbExpress, FireDAC, FastReport,
TeeChart, ... at 1/3 or 1/4 price of Professional.

Gabor
Legend
Helpful Answer (5 pts)
Correct Answer (10 pts)

Server Response from: ETNAJIVE02