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Thread: Upgrade SKU to be discontinued by March 31st??



Permlink Replies: 184 - Last Post: Mar 26, 2018 1:21 PM Last Post By: Joseph Mitzen Threads: [ Previous | Next ]
Jan Martin Pett...

Posts: 88
Registered: 12/8/02
Upgrade SKU to be discontinued by March 31st??
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  Posted: Jan 27, 2018 4:29 PM
https://community.embarcadero.com/article/articles-support/16598-upgrade-sku-to-be-discontinued-in-q4

This means..what? Everybody buys at "New User" price every time a new version is released?
It sounds like that to me.. I mean, if you can't upgrade anymore..

Edited by: Jan Martin Pettersen on Jan 28, 2018 12:30 AM
Mark Marks

Posts: 269
Registered: 9/11/00
Re: Upgrade SKU to be discontinued by March 31st?? [Edit]
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  Posted: Jan 27, 2018 5:03 PM   in response to: Jan Martin Pett... in response to: Jan Martin Pett...
Jan Martin Pettersen wrote:

https://community.embarcadero.com/article/articles-support/16598-upgrade-sku-to-be-discontinued-in-q4

This means..what? Everybody buys at "New User" price every time a new
version is released? It sounds like that to me.. I mean, if you
can't upgrade anymore..

Edited by: Jan Martin Pettersen on Jan 28, 2018 12:30 AM

Not if you have a subscription.
Jan Martin Pett...

Posts: 88
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Re: Upgrade SKU to be discontinued by March 31st?? [Edit]
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  Posted: Jan 27, 2018 5:43 PM   in response to: Mark Marks in response to: Mark Marks
I guess I read it correctly then. But if John David is correct about non-perpetual licensing, then its even worse.

Also, when you consider the "New user" price, that announcement makes it rather "difficult" to temporarily
quit/stop the subscription after March 31, unless you're a company or similar.

I say "difficult" because of the cost of getting back on "train".

Edited by: Jan Martin Pettersen on Jan 28, 2018 1:45 AM
John David

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Re: Upgrade SKU to be discontinued by March 31st?? [Edit]
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  Posted: Jan 27, 2018 5:29 PM   in response to: Jan Martin Pett... in response to: Jan Martin Pett...
On 28/01/2018 00:32, Jan Martin Pettersen wrote:
https://community.embarcadero.com/article/articles-support/16598-upgrade-sku-to-be-discontinued-in-q4

This means..what? Everybody buys at "New User" price every time a new version is released?
It sounds like that to me.. I mean, if you can't upgrade anymore..

Edited by: Jan Martin Pettersen on Jan 28, 2018 12:30 AM

I think it means that there is no perpetuity license. Everybody is
required to take out a subscription like Adobe has done to its Creative
Cloud Applications that includes Photoshop, Dreamweaver and other
products. Or Microsoft Office 365 subscription.

When your subscription expires, so does your license and you won't be
able to use the product.

OK I am just guessing this because even Microsoft is thinking of trying
Enterprise Subscription for its Windows Operating system. Customers
have to continue paying Microsoft Tax year after year if they want to
use Microsoft products!!!! Now we might also get Embarcadero Tax!!!!!!!

The question is apart from Delphi, is there any need for C++ Builder? I
don't think so unless Microsoft decides to stop its Community Editions
of Visual Studio. For C# you don't need Visual Studio because you can
get it in Application Framework (C:\Windows\Microsoft.NET\Framework64)
and use any text editor to compile the program in command line on any
platform - Windows, Mac and Linux.

Jeff Overcash (...

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Re: Upgrade SKU to be discontinued by March 31st?? [Edit]
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  Posted: Jan 27, 2018 9:52 PM   in response to: John David in response to: John David
On 1/27/2018 8:29 PM, John David wrote:
On 28/01/2018 00:32, Jan Martin Pettersen wrote:
https://community.embarcadero.com/article/articles-support/16598-upgrade-sku-to-be-discontinued-in-q4

This means..what? Everybody buys at "New User" price every time a new version is released?
It sounds like that to me.. I mean, if you can't upgrade anymore..

Edited by: Jan Martin Pettersen on Jan 28, 2018 12:30 AM

I think it means that there is no perpetuity license. Everybody is
required to take out a subscription like Adobe has done to its Creative
Cloud Applications that includes Photoshop, Dreamweaver and other
products. Or Microsoft Office 365 subscription.

When your subscription expires, so does your license and you won't be
able to use the product.

OK I am just guessing this because even Microsoft is thinking of trying
Enterprise Subscription for its Windows Operating system. Customers
have to continue paying Microsoft Tax year after year if they want to
use Microsoft products!!!! Now we might also get Embarcadero Tax!!!!!!!

This is not what that article says. It is only the one off upgrade pricing SKU
is going away because the subscription model has been so highly adapted by the
customer base. Subscription model today is when it expires you continue to have
a valid license for your product you just no longer are eligible for updates
released after your subscription expires.

--
Jeff Overcash (TeamB)
(Please do not email me directly unless asked. Thank You)
Learning is finding out what you already know. Doing is demonstrating that you
know it. Teaching is reminding others that they know it as well as you. We are
all leaners, doers, teachers. (R Bach)

Mark Marks

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Re: Upgrade SKU to be discontinued by March 31st?? [Edit]
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  Posted: Jan 27, 2018 10:13 PM   in response to: Jeff Overcash (... in response to: Jeff Overcash (...
Jeff Overcash (TeamB) wrote:

Subscription model today is
when it expires you continue to have a valid license for your product
you just no longer are eligible for updates released after your
subscription expires.

And if you want to get back in the game you must purchase a new license.

Incorrect? Without an upgrade SKU, that seems to be the only option.

Let the subscription lapse, whatever the reason...cha-ching.
Markus Humm

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Re: Upgrade SKU to be discontinued by March 31st?? [Edit]
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  Posted: Mar 14, 2018 12:34 PM   in response to: Mark Marks in response to: Mark Marks
Mark Marks wrote:
Jeff Overcash (TeamB) wrote:

Subscription model today is
when it expires you continue to have a valid license for your product
you just no longer are eligible for updates released after your
subscription expires.

And if you want to get back in the game you must purchase a new license.

Incorrect? Without an upgrade SKU, that seems to be the only option.

Let the subscription lapse, whatever the reason...cha-ching.

There still might be further 20% off until xx offers or "amnesty" deals or so and it sometimes can help to talk to EMBT folks I guess...
...but ok, companies with several licences have more "weight"...

Greetings

Markus
Luigi Sandon

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Re: Upgrade SKU to be discontinued by March 31st?? [Edit]
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  Posted: Jan 30, 2018 11:41 AM   in response to: Jeff Overcash (... in response to: Jeff Overcash (...
Jeff Overcash (TeamB) wrote:
is going away because the subscription model has been so highly adapted by the
customer base.

Or the opposite is true? They need so desperately to milk the subscription model they need to force people on it? It's a long time BorInCodeEmbIdera is trying to move customers forcibly towards more expensive options.

If it was really so successful, why remove an option that wouldn't have damaged them but just brought some more revenues in? It's not that upgrades are a separate product.
Dalija Prasnikar

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Re: Upgrade SKU to be discontinued by March 31st?? [Edit]
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  Posted: Jan 28, 2018 10:34 AM   in response to: John David in response to: John David
John David wrote:
On 28/01/2018 00:32, Jan Martin Pettersen wrote:
https://community.embarcadero.com/article/articles-support/16598-upgrade-sku-to-be-discontinued-in-q4

This means..what? Everybody buys at "New User" price every time a new version is released?
It sounds like that to me.. I mean, if you can't upgrade anymore..

Edited by: Jan Martin Pettersen on Jan 28, 2018 12:30 AM

I think it means that there is no perpetuity license. Everybody is
required to take out a subscription like Adobe has done to its Creative
Cloud Applications that includes Photoshop, Dreamweaver and other
products. Or Microsoft Office 365 subscription.

When your subscription expires, so does your license and you won't be
able to use the product.

That is not true. License is still perpetual. Confirmed by Marco Cantu

https://plus.google.com/+DalijaPrasnikar/posts/4AJi1fc3NTn

What happens, is that if you have or purchase new license and you let
your update subscription expire you can only purchase new license - that
means higher price. There is no special upgrade price for existing customers.

--
Dalija Prasnikar
Embarcadero MVP
https://dalijap.blogspot.com/
Delphi Memory Management for Classic and ARC Compilers
https://dalija.prasnikar.info/delphimm/
Jan Martin Pett...

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Re: Upgrade SKU to be discontinued by March 31st?? [Edit]
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  Posted: Jan 28, 2018 11:35 AM   in response to: Dalija Prasnikar in response to: Dalija Prasnikar
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:
John David wrote:
On 28/01/2018 00:32, Jan Martin Pettersen wrote:
https://community.embarcadero.com/article/articles-support/16598-upgrade-sku-to-be-discontinued-in-q4

This means..what? Everybody buys at "New User" price every time a new version is released?
It sounds like that to me.. I mean, if you can't upgrade anymore..

Edited by: Jan Martin Pettersen on Jan 28, 2018 12:30 AM

I think it means that there is no perpetuity license. Everybody is
required to take out a subscription like Adobe has done to its Creative
Cloud Applications that includes Photoshop, Dreamweaver and other
products. Or Microsoft Office 365 subscription.

When your subscription expires, so does your license and you won't be
able to use the product.

That is not true. License is still perpetual. Confirmed by Marco Cantu

https://plus.google.com/+DalijaPrasnikar/posts/4AJi1fc3NTn

What happens, is that if you have or purchase new license and you let
your update subscription expire you can only purchase new license - that
means higher price. There is no special upgrade price for existing customers.
Iow, everyone that haven't upgraded by March 31 will be ditched.
When somebody stop their subscription they're immediately considered as a new user.

I guess EMB intends to stay afloat based on currently existing subscriptions and (old)
new users. I have to wonder how beneficial this move is in the long run..
Brandon Staggs

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Re: Upgrade SKU to be discontinued by March 31st?? [Edit]
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  Posted: Jan 29, 2018 1:56 PM   in response to: Jan Martin Pett... in response to: Jan Martin Pett...
"Jan Martin Pettersen" wrote on Sun, 28 Jan 2018 11:35:32 -0800:

I have to wonder how beneficial this move is in the long run.

Seriously, how many people are actually buying upgrades every year
instead of getting on subscription? Can there be that many who can't
do math?

--
Brandon Staggs
StudyLamp Software LLC
http://www.studylamp.com
Joseph Mitzen

Posts: 392
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Re: Upgrade SKU to be discontinued by March 31st?? [Edit]
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  Posted: Jan 29, 2018 3:33 PM   in response to: Brandon Staggs in response to: Brandon Staggs
Brandon Staggs wrote:
"Jan Martin Pettersen" wrote on Sun, 28 Jan 2018 11:35:32 -0800:

I have to wonder how beneficial this move is in the long run.

Seriously, how many people are actually buying upgrades every year

People aren't buying upgrades "every year". But there are people buying upgrades only when necessary. If they're maintaining a product based on a Delphi version several years old, they don't need to pay subscription fees for something they won't use. You also have people who want to see that new features are ones they want before upgrading. This change almost certainly cuts these types of users from Delphi since they are very unlikely to be able to justify the full price of the product to gain an upgrade now. Of course, it also ensures those who have been "on the fence" and exploring other products are never coming back either.

Maybe the idea is that these people will quickly run back to Delphi and raise revenues as a result. Still, I think it's far more likely they end up being lost. Eliminating an upgrade option doesn't seem designed to aid the customer in any way, which means EMBT must have believed this would be good for them somehow. I'm not convinced they're right. The fact that they seem to be continually playing around with upgrade methods and costs as a way to boost revenue doesn't inspire confidence either (e.g. the "platinum subscription" that seems to have disappeared from their website now).
Brandon Staggs

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Re: Upgrade SKU to be discontinued by March 31st?? [Edit]
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  Posted: Jan 30, 2018 10:34 AM   in response to: Joseph Mitzen in response to: Joseph Mitzen
"Joseph Mitzen" wrote on Mon, 29 Jan 2018 15:33:17 -0800:

If they're maintaining a product based on a Delphi version several years old, they don't need to pay subscription fees for something they won't use.

So then it is plainly obvious that Embarcadero is not about to lose a
bunch of business with this change. They whiners are people who
aren't buying anything from Emba anyway!

--
Brandon Staggs
StudyLamp Software LLC
http://www.studylamp.com
Mark Marks

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Re: Upgrade SKU to be discontinued by March 31st?? [Edit]
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  Posted: Jan 30, 2018 5:20 PM   in response to: Brandon Staggs in response to: Brandon Staggs
Brandon Staggs wrote:

"Joseph Mitzen" wrote on Mon, 29 Jan 2018 15:33:17 -0800:

If they're maintaining a product based on a Delphi version several
years old, they don't need to pay subscription fees for something
they won't use.

So then it is plainly obvious that Embarcadero is not about to lose a
bunch of business with this change. They whiners are people who
aren't buying anything from Emba anyway!

Myopic.

Brandon Staggs

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Re: Upgrade SKU to be discontinued by March 31st?? [Edit]
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  Posted: Jan 30, 2018 6:57 PM   in response to: Mark Marks in response to: Mark Marks
"Mark Marks" wrote on Tue, 30 Jan 2018 17:20:40 -0800:

Myopic.

What is it that you think they are too focused on?

For me this is a very easy calculation. Delphi is one of my
professional tools. When I compare all of my annual costs of doing
business, it isn't event near the top of the list. I want it to
continue to be developed and supported. The subscription cost is easy
to justify.

--
Brandon Staggs
StudyLamp Software LLC
http://www.studylamp.com
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: Upgrade SKU to be discontinued by March 31st?? [Edit]
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  Posted: Feb 5, 2018 2:40 PM   in response to: Brandon Staggs in response to: Brandon Staggs
Brandon Staggs wrote:

"Mark Marks" wrote on Tue, 30 Jan 2018 17:20:40 -0800:

Myopic.

What is it that you think they are too focused on?

For me this is a very easy calculation. Delphi is one of my
professional tools. When I compare all of my annual costs of doing
business, it isn't event near the top of the list. I want it to
continue to be developed and supported. The subscription cost is easy
to justify.

Exactly.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Facts are the enemy of truth."
-- Don Quixote - "Man of La Mancha"
Van Swofford

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Re: Upgrade SKU to be discontinued by March 31st?? [Edit]
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  Posted: Feb 7, 2018 9:10 AM   in response to: Brandon Staggs in response to: Brandon Staggs
Brandon Staggs wrote:

For me this is a very easy calculation. Delphi is one of my
professional tools. When I compare all of my annual costs of doing
business, it isn't event near the top of the list. I want it to
continue to be developed and supported. The subscription cost is easy
to justify.

Same here, and my business is tiny compared to most.

--
Cheers,
Van

"Good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad
judgment." - Will Rogers
Jan Martin Pett...

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Re: Upgrade SKU to be discontinued by March 31st?? [Edit]
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  Posted: Feb 7, 2018 11:38 AM   in response to: Van Swofford in response to: Van Swofford
Van Swofford wrote:
Brandon Staggs wrote:

For me this is a very easy calculation. Delphi is one of my
professional tools. When I compare all of my annual costs of doing
business, it isn't event near the top of the list. I want it to
continue to be developed and supported. The subscription cost is easy
to justify.

Same here, and my business is tiny compared to most.

--
Cheers,
Van

Yes, the subscription cost is somewhat easy to justify for a somewhat experienced developer or a company.
The "New user" price, not so much.
Especially if the company "must" have to an in-house training facility for Delphi.

In my opinion the "New user" price serve as a deterrant to individual recruitment, while the
lack of an upgrade option also "ensures" that the individuals buying a version and drop out of
subscription (for any reason) most likely won't come back..hence "must" in the previous sentence.

I'm not sure about starter nowadays, but I seem to recall that it excludes too much to be useful.
I see "Professional" as the real starter versions (not RAD Studio, but Delphi/C++ Builder).
Kevin Dean

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Re: Upgrade SKU to be discontinued by March 31st?? [Edit]
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  Posted: Feb 14, 2018 4:24 PM   in response to: Brandon Staggs in response to: Brandon Staggs
Brandon Staggs wrote:
"Mark Marks" wrote on Tue, 30 Jan 2018 17:20:40 -0800:

Myopic.

What is it that you think they are too focused on?

For me this is a very easy calculation. Delphi is one of my
professional tools. When I compare all of my annual costs of doing
business, it isn't event near the top of the list. I want it to
continue to be developed and supported. The subscription cost is easy
to justify.

--
Brandon Staggs
StudyLamp Software LLC
http://www.studylamp.com

Agreed. Once on subscription, the cost is bearable as we intend to use it as a core part of generating our revenue. We are more interested in the development tools being well maintained so they continue to suit our needs.
Arthur Hoornweg

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Re: Upgrade SKU to be discontinued by March 31st?? [Edit]
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  Posted: Mar 1, 2018 2:47 AM   in response to: Brandon Staggs in response to: Brandon Staggs
Brandon Staggs wrote:

I want it to continue to be developed and supported. The subscription cost is easy
to justify.

Well I don't want Delphi to die off either. Just ordered 4 updates. Any idea if the web installer/ISO already contains the latest fixes?

Markus Humm

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Re: Upgrade SKU to be discontinued by March 31st?? [Edit]
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  Posted: Mar 16, 2018 8:59 AM   in response to: Joseph Mitzen in response to: Joseph Mitzen
My guess is, that they still will offer "amnesty upgrade" pricing from time to time...

Greetings

Markus
Arthur Hoornweg

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Re: Upgrade SKU to be discontinued by March 31st?? [Edit]
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  Posted: Feb 6, 2018 1:55 AM   in response to: Brandon Staggs in response to: Brandon Staggs
Brandon Staggs wrote:

Seriously, how many people are actually buying upgrades every year
instead of getting on subscription? Can there be that many who can't
do math?

Our company develops for Windows only. As far as I can see, the last 5-6 installments of Delphi were totally focused on the rat race of mobile platforms and I see no signs that this will ever change. The math for a Delphi developer who does Windows only is that the ROI is poor because the money is spent on different things. I don't need bells or whistles, I simply need a fast and rock solid IDE that produces good quality code and that doesn't crash on huge project groups. Having used almost all Delphi versions from version 1 to XE5, my day-to-day platform is version XE for its speed and stability. Give me something significantly better and I'll be happy to upgrade.

Mark Marks

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Re: Upgrade SKU to be discontinued by March 31st?? [Edit]
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  Posted: Feb 6, 2018 6:09 AM   in response to: Arthur Hoornweg in response to: Arthur Hoornweg
Arthur Hoornweg wrote:

...my day-to-day platform is version XE for its speed and
stability. Give me something significantly better and I'll be happy
to upgrade.

Hear hear.
Brandon Staggs

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Re: Upgrade SKU to be discontinued by March 31st?? [Edit]
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  Posted: Feb 6, 2018 8:11 AM   in response to: Arthur Hoornweg in response to: Arthur Hoornweg
"Arthur Hoornweg" wrote on Tue, 6 Feb 2018 01:55:23 -0800:

As far as I can see, the last 5-6 installments of Delphi were totally focused on the rat race of mobile platforms

I also exclusively do Windows dev. You are simply mistaken about
that. It is true that there is a very heavy focus on FMX, but it is
manifestly not their "total" focus.

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Brandon Staggs
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Quentin Correll


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Re: Upgrade SKU to be discontinued by March 31st?? [Edit]
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  Posted: Feb 6, 2018 11:07 AM   in response to: Arthur Hoornweg in response to: Arthur Hoornweg
Arthur,

| my day-to-day platform is version XE for its speed and stability.
| Give me something significantly better and I'll be happy to upgrade.

Ditto.

--

Q -- XanaNews 1.20-0cfde51 - 2018-02-06 11:00:29

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Marius .

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Re: Upgrade SKU to be discontinued by March 31st?? [Edit]
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  Posted: Mar 15, 2018 9:17 AM   in response to: Arthur Hoornweg in response to: Arthur Hoornweg
Arthur Hoornweg wrote:

As far as I can see, the last 5-6 installments of Delphi were totally
focused on the rat race of mobile platforms and I see no signs that
this will ever change

Thats my observation also. And together with very high third party cost
we will stick with XE for another 3 years (unless something interesting
comes by)
Markus Humm

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Re: Upgrade SKU to be discontinued by March 31st?? [Edit]
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  Posted: Mar 25, 2018 7:25 AM   in response to: Marius . in response to: Marius .
Am 15.03.2018 um 17:17 schrieb Marius.:
Arthur Hoornweg wrote:

As far as I can see, the last 5-6 installments of Delphi were totally
focused on the rat race of mobile platforms and I see no signs that
this will ever change

Thats my observation also. And together with very high third party cost
we will stick with XE for another 3 years (unless something interesting
comes by)

Hm?

Update 3 to Tokyo contained quite some VCL high DPI bugfixes (among
other fixes).

This means: while mobile still has much priority 8and it still needs
more work) VCL is no longer being neglected. In Tokyo they additionally
added some new Windows 10 style VCL controls.

That's not nothing!

Greetings

Markus
Alan Marryat

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Re: Upgrade SKU to be discontinued by March 31st?? [Edit]
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  Posted: Mar 26, 2018 1:11 PM   in response to: Markus Humm in response to: Markus Humm
Out of the box it's broken. Shouldn't have to be on subscription to get bug fixes.


Hm?

Update 3 to Tokyo contained quite some VCL high DPI bugfixes (among
other fixes).

That's not nothing!

Greetings

Markus

Joseph Mitzen

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  Posted: Mar 26, 2018 1:21 PM   in response to: Alan Marryat in response to: Alan Marryat
Alan Marryat wrote:
Out of the box it's broken. Shouldn't have to be on subscription to get bug fixes.

It's a disturbing new trend. On Google+ they've identified at least two bug fixes that are being touted as "enhancements" in the promotional literature. For instance, fixing a memory leak becomes a memory use improvement!
Mike Margerum

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Re: Upgrade SKU to be discontinued by March 31st?? [Edit]
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  Posted: Jan 29, 2018 6:30 AM   in response to: John David in response to: John David
When your subscription expires, so does your license and you won't be
able to use the product.

I hope this isnt true. Are they doing this for retro versions like
Berlin? If they get rid of the perpetual license for older versions I
will be moving off their tool for good.
Alan Marryat

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  Posted: Jan 29, 2018 7:02 AM   in response to: Mike Margerum in response to: Mike Margerum
Mike Margerum wrote:
When your subscription expires, so does your license and you won't be
able to use the product.

I hope this isnt true. Are they doing this for retro versions like
Berlin? If they get rid of the perpetual license for older versions I
will be moving off their tool for good.

They won't be able to extort customers into a subscription. Customers won't upgrade and will either leave, or wait for the inevitable special upgrade that will happen.
Dalija Prasnikar

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Re: Upgrade SKU to be discontinued by March 31st?? [Edit]
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  Posted: Jan 29, 2018 7:20 AM   in response to: Mike Margerum in response to: Mike Margerum
Mike Margerum wrote:
When your subscription expires, so does your license and you won't be
able to use the product.

I hope this isnt true. Are they doing this for retro versions like
Berlin? If they get rid of the perpetual license for older versions I
will be moving off their tool for good.

That is not true. Licenses will stay perpetual.

When subscription expires, you can use the products you have already
received as part of your subscription as long as you want. You will not receive
future updates and if you want to upgrade you will have to pay new license
price.

--
Dalija Prasnikar
Embarcadero MVP
https://dalijap.blogspot.com/
Delphi Memory Management for Classic and ARC Compilers
https://dalija.prasnikar.info/delphimm/
Brandon Staggs

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Re: Upgrade SKU to be discontinued by March 31st?? [Edit]
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  Posted: Jan 29, 2018 1:56 PM   in response to: Mike Margerum in response to: Mike Margerum
"Mike Margerum" wrote on Mon, 29 Jan 2018 06:30:44 -0800:

I hope this isnt true. Are they doing this for retro versions like
Berlin? If they get rid of the perpetual license for older versions I
will be moving off their tool for good.

It is not true. All people have to do is read why they have said....

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Brandon Staggs
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Brandon Staggs

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Re: Upgrade SKU to be discontinued by March 31st?? [Edit]
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  Posted: Jan 29, 2018 1:54 PM   in response to: John David in response to: John David
"John David" wrote on Sat, 27 Jan 2018 17:29:15 -0800:

I think it means that there is no perpetuity license

No.

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Brandon Staggs
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Luigi Sandon

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Re: Upgrade SKU to be discontinued by March 31st?? [Edit]
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  Posted: Jan 30, 2018 11:51 AM   in response to: John David in response to: John David
I think it means that there is no perpetuity license. Everybody is
required to take out a subscription like Adobe has done to its Creative
Cloud Applications that includes Photoshop, Dreamweaver and other
products. Or Microsoft Office 365 subscription.

Both are way cheaper. Adobe Photo subscription (Lightroom and Photoshop) is less than €15 per month. The full suite - all the apps - for business if about €85. Office is less than 6 (about 10 for five users). It is true they work only partially if you stop paying, but they don't ask you to first pay the full price of Photoshop/Lightroom and then the subscription, you pay just the lower subscription price. Very different models. If you had to pay €1200 for Photoshop and Lightroom up front and then 600 annually for the subscription, Adobe model would have been far less successful.

Anyway, the removal of the perpetual license of Lightroom was criticized a lot - and many competitors (Affinity, Luminar, DxO, PhaseOne) are ready to get some of those customers. And you can still buy perpetual licenses of Office.
Alexandre Machado

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Re: Upgrade SKU to be discontinued by March 31st?? [Edit]
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  Posted: Jan 30, 2018 1:49 PM   in response to: Luigi Sandon in response to: Luigi Sandon
And you can still buy perpetual licenses of Office

It won't do much after a couple of years, though. MS will absolutely make sure that:
- Newer versions of Windows won't support older versions of Office
- File format used by older versions of Office are phased out really fast making them unusable when you have to cooperate/exchange office files

On the other hand, there are several Delphi 5, 6, 7 users out there (which are 20 y.o. now!). Although this is often related to upgrade cost, the tool itself if far more useful on the long run than Office suite.
Luigi Sandon

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Re: Upgrade SKU to be discontinued by March 31st?? [Edit]
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  Posted: Jan 31, 2018 6:14 AM   in response to: Alexandre Machado in response to: Alexandre Machado
It won't do much after a couple of years, though. MS will absolutely make sure that:
- Newer versions of Windows won't support older versions of Office
- File format used by older versions of Office are phased out really fast making them unusable when you have to cooperate/exchange office files

Bullshit. Microsoft knows how much backwards compatibility is important. Windows 10 still officially support Office 2007. Office document formats are now fully documented (effect of the EU antitrust ruling).

On the other hand, there are several Delphi 5, 6, 7 users out there (which are 20 y.o. now!).

And which don't work well on latest Windows version - and the application they create may have big issues as well. Only a fool would work today with a compiler/library containing know issue and security risks.
Alexandre Machado

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  Posted: Jan 31, 2018 12:25 PM   in response to: Luigi Sandon in response to: Luigi Sandon
compiler/library containing know issue and security risks.

Now, this is not only BS but also FUD. Besides some DPI awareness and other things that might not affect your software at all, Delphi 7 won't produce anything risky per se. Inno Setup up to version 5.2 was built with Delphi 2 and you can still use it.
Alexandre Machado

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  Posted: Jan 31, 2018 12:30 PM   in response to: Luigi Sandon in response to: Luigi Sandon
Bullshit. Microsoft knows how much backwards compatibility is important.

Oh, yes, bullshit... right. https://support.office.com/en-us/article/compatibility-changes-between-versions-692289af-b760-4698-8326-14b2edcd6552
Dan Barclay

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Re: Upgrade SKU to be discontinued by March 31st?? [Edit]
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  Posted: Jan 31, 2018 2:59 PM   in response to: Alexandre Machado in response to: Alexandre Machado
Alexandre Machado wrote:
Bullshit. Microsoft knows how much backwards compatibility is important.

Oh, yes, bullshit... right. https://support.office.com/en-us/article/compatibility-changes-between-versions-692289af-b760-4698-8326-14b2edcd6552

An even deeper example:
http://vb.mvps.org/vfred/Trust.asp

At one time MS internal estimates of VB developer count were over 6MM. Code estimate was in the billions of lines.

Few can even spell VB now, all on account of compatibility.

Worse, Delphi completely ignored that opportunity to snag these existing developers leaving the ship (now more than 15 years ago). A few of us made it here but could not get systemic support for going after that mass. Delphi management were too busy playing with their tools I guess <shrug>.

Dan
Alan Marryat

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Re: Upgrade SKU to be discontinued by March 31st?? [Edit]
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  Posted: Jan 31, 2018 8:06 AM   in response to: Alexandre Machado in response to: Alexandre Machado
Alexandre Machado wrote:
And you can still buy perpetual licenses of Office

It won't do much after a couple of years, though. MS will absolutely make sure that:
- Newer versions of Windows won't support older versions of Office

Office 2007 works just fine on Windows 10.
Arthur Hoornweg

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Re: Upgrade SKU to be discontinued by March 31st?? [Edit]
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  Posted: Feb 6, 2018 2:03 AM   in response to: Alexandre Machado in response to: Alexandre Machado
Alexandre Machado wrote:
And you can still buy perpetual licenses of Office

It won't do much after a couple of years, though. MS will absolutely make sure that:
- Newer versions of Windows won't support older versions of Office

Blocking older versions of Office on newer versions of Windows doesn't make much sense, backward compatibility is too important for Microsoft because many business processes rely on it. You probably meant "newer versions of Office won't run on older versions of Windows". That has indeed been announced by MS.

Brandon Staggs

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  Posted: Jan 30, 2018 6:59 PM   in response to: Luigi Sandon in response to: Luigi Sandon
"Luigi Sandon" wrote on Tue, 30 Jan 2018 11:51:53 -0800:

Anyway, the removal of the perpetual license of Lightroom was criticized a lot - and many competitors (Affinity, Luminar, DxO, PhaseOne) are ready to get some of those customers. And you can still buy perpetual licenses of Office.

And none of this is particularly relevant. The Delphi license is
still perpetual. You can elect not to renew your subscription and
what you have will continue to work.

--
Brandon Staggs
StudyLamp Software LLC
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Luigi Sandon

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Re: Upgrade SKU to be discontinued by March 31st?? [Edit]
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  Posted: Jan 31, 2018 6:26 AM   in response to: Brandon Staggs in response to: Brandon Staggs
It's relevant, because more alternatives you have, more difficult to milk users is.

You can elect not to renew your subscription and
what you have will continue to work.

And the issue is exactly this. You're being forced into an expensive subscription, far more expensive than other subscription models, but Oracle, perhaps - well known for heavily milking its locked-in customers. But BorInCodeEmbIdera is not Oracle - and even Oracle is starting to have issues, as data are moving to cloud services and other technologies.

Especially since it's also difficult to know what the subscription price is. Adobe is much more transparent about its prices.

How much does officially cost to renew a Delphi subscription? In many companies you have to budget well in advance to obtain approval - you can't be at the pure whims of a bad supplier that is putting more effort in devising new ways to get more money from the same product, than really improving it.

BTW: plans to implement Spectre protections in RAD Studio compilers? LLVM one will come from upstrream, Delphi?
Rudy Velthuis (...


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  Posted: Feb 5, 2018 2:40 PM   in response to: Luigi Sandon in response to: Luigi Sandon
Luigi Sandon wrote:

It's relevant, because more alternatives you have, more difficult to
milk users is.

You can elect not to renew your subscription and
what you have will continue to work.

And the issue is exactly this. You're being forced into an expensive
subscription, far more expensive than other subscription models,

Yes, but perpetual. If you stop paying, your products will continue to
work. You just don't get any upgrades/updates anymore.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"War is hell and all that, but it has a good deal to recommend
it. It wipes out all the small nuisances of peacetime."
-- Ian Hay
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: Upgrade SKU to be discontinued by March 31st?? [Edit]
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  Posted: Feb 5, 2018 2:40 PM   in response to: Luigi Sandon in response to: Luigi Sandon
Luigi Sandon wrote:

I think it means that there is no perpetuity license. Everybody is
required to take out a subscription like Adobe has done to its
Creative Cloud Applications that includes Photoshop, Dreamweaver
and other products. Or Microsoft Office 365 subscription.

Both are way cheaper. Adobe Photo subscription (Lightroom and
Photoshop) is less than €15 per month.

Yes, but you can't write software with them. And as long as you intend
to use them, you must pay. That is a totally different subscription
model.

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Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"No man's knowledge here can go beyond his experience."
-- John A. Locke
Arthur Hoornweg

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  Posted: Feb 6, 2018 2:34 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB, MVP) wrote:

Yes, but you can't write software with them. And as long as you intend
to use them, you must pay.

Well, you can't do image processing with Delphi either...

I must say, maybe having a subscription-only model (as a separate SKU) isn't a bad idea at all. Having a rental model that even my teenage kid could afford off his pocket money could be a game changer and attract a whole new audience for Delphi.

Let's face it, the buy-plus-subscribe model is way too expensive for newbies and the starter SKU is probably a stillbirth because it excludes the devices that everybody uses nowadays.

Brandon Staggs

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  Posted: Feb 6, 2018 8:14 AM   in response to: Arthur Hoornweg in response to: Arthur Hoornweg
"Arthur Hoornweg" wrote on Tue, 6 Feb 2018 02:34:11 -0800:

Having a rental model that even my teenage kid could afford off his pocket money could be a game changer and attract a whole new audience for Delphi.

Again, I just don't see it -- you would STILL be competing with free
native toolsets and other suitable free stacks.

Perhaps they should consider a "rental" sku that doesn't come with
perpetual use rights, but I don't see how it attracts students or
hobbyists either way. There is just too much out there available for
free.

--
Brandon Staggs
StudyLamp Software LLC
http://www.studylamp.com
Clement Doss

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Re: Upgrade SKU to be discontinued by March 31st?? [Edit]
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  Posted: Feb 6, 2018 10:37 AM   in response to: Brandon Staggs in response to: Brandon Staggs
Brandon Staggs wrote:
"Arthur Hoornweg" wrote on Tue, 6 Feb 2018 02:34:11 -0800:

Having a rental model that even my teenage kid could afford off his pocket money could be a game changer and attract a whole new audience for Delphi.

Again, I just don't see it -- you would STILL be competing with free
native toolsets and other suitable free stacks.

Exactly. Now we're going somewhere :). Youngsters are programming FREE languages ( notice the S at the end <g>).
So what would keep them from adding an extra language? Even if it's a rental model it would be something different and worth the try. As you said, any strategy will take time. But it's time to take that first step and have a new product line! Rent model: No Source code, use only with active subscription. Stop paying will display a nice "oops!" message. EMB is already getting information from our IDE (just use any sniffer and you will see packets going over there), it shouldn't take too long to write this code.

Perhaps they should consider a "rental" sku that doesn't come with
perpetual use rights, but I don't see how it attracts students or
hobbyists either way. There is just too much out there available for
free.

They are using it because it's free. For a FREE (or afordable price), given the quality of Delphi, they will get into it just out of curiosity (or whatever reason that might be). But at least give them a chance to get it!! With that rental model, and payed Getit downloads EMB would have a very interesting product line.

Clément

Arthur Hoornweg

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  Posted: Feb 11, 2018 11:27 PM   in response to: Brandon Staggs in response to: Brandon Staggs
Brandon Staggs wrote:

Perhaps they should consider a "rental" sku that doesn't come with
perpetual use rights, but I don't see how it attracts students or
hobbyists either way. There is just too much out there available for
free.

But not too many that are cross-platform and free at the same time.
Rudy Velthuis (...


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  Posted: Feb 12, 2018 5:29 AM   in response to: Arthur Hoornweg in response to: Arthur Hoornweg
Arthur Hoornweg wrote:

Brandon Staggs wrote:

Perhaps they should consider a "rental" sku that doesn't come with
perpetual use rights, but I don't see how it attracts students or
hobbyists either way. There is just too much out there available
for free.

But not too many that are cross-platform and free at the same time.

Well, Java and languages like Python come to mind. But hey, who would
want to write something big in either language?

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"The shepherd always tries to persuade the sheep that their
interests and his own are the same." -- Marie Beyle
Arthur Hoornweg

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  Posted: Feb 15, 2018 5:52 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB, MVP) wrote:

Well, Java and languages like Python come to mind. But hey, who would
want to write something big in either language?

Millions of Android developers seem to do that.... But with platform-independency I also meant the visual stuff, not just the language/compiler. Take Lazarus/Freepascal for example, their approach to platform independence is quite nice.

Rudy Velthuis (...


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  Posted: Feb 17, 2018 10:03 AM   in response to: Arthur Hoornweg in response to: Arthur Hoornweg
Arthur Hoornweg wrote:

Rudy Velthuis (TeamB, MVP) wrote:

Well, Java and languages like Python come to mind. But hey, who
would want to write something big in either language?

Millions of Android developers seem to do that...


Something big? Are you sure?

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Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"When you have to kill a man, it costs nothing to be polite."
-- Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

Arthur Hoornweg

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  Posted: Mar 1, 2018 2:42 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB, MVP) wrote:

Something big? Are you sure?

Their mileage will vary. Unless you meant that Java programs tend to be more compact than others, that is...
Clement Doss

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  Posted: Jan 29, 2018 10:54 AM   in response to: Jan Martin Pett... in response to: Jan Martin Pett...
Well,

They indeed offered a lot of amnesties and will still offer a last one.
For those who haven't upgrade because the price is too high, they probably won't get in when a New user license will kick in.
Now I'm curious to see how they will make this happen:

"(...) We will continue to offer easy paths to move to higher Editions, as we make both the Enterprise and Architect editions even more attractive for enterprise application development. It is not a huge change, but nevertheless, we want to minimize surprises. If you have been on the fence about Upgrading your old version, now will be a good time and remember that you get your first year of Update Subscription included.

Together, we made great strides in popularizing RAD Studio for Delphi and C++ development. We carefully monitor competitive offerings and we strongly believe that the value customers receive with our products is far superior to the cost. I hope you feel the same way. (...)"

"Value customers receive with out product is far superior to the cost". I'm not quite sure to understand what he meant.
"Far" and "Superior" are too damn close! Pratically any "less superior" IDE (Including Notepad++ ) are drawing circles around many RAD features.
I'm not sharing his enthusiasm. Let's hope "more Attractive for Enterprise" vs "Strides in popularizing" are not mutually exclusive.
They should carefully measure their next steps.

Clément

Joseph Mitzen

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  Posted: Jan 29, 2018 1:32 PM   in response to: Clement Doss in response to: Clement Doss
Clement Doss wrote:
Together, we made great strides in popularizing RAD Studio for Delphi and C++ development. We carefully monitor competitive offerings and we strongly believe that the value customers receive with
our products is far superior to the cost. I hope you feel the same way. (...)"

Pratically any "less superior" IDE (Including Notepad++ ) are drawing circles around many RAD features.
I'm not sharing his enthusiasm.

I'd love to hear how Marco believes that the $3500 for Enterprise offers superior value to the $500 for Visual Studio that gets you C++, C#, ASP.NET, Javascript, Typescript, F#, VB.NET, R, Python, Linux support and Xamarin for mobile. Or the $649 per year enterprise / $249 per year individual (which drops to $389 / $149 by the third year) JetBrains subscriptions that get you:

IDEs for Java, Kotlin, Android Java, C#, Swift/Objective C, C / C++, SQL, Go, PHP, Ruby, Python, Javascript.
Brandon Staggs

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  Posted: Jan 29, 2018 1:51 PM   in response to: Joseph Mitzen in response to: Joseph Mitzen
"Joseph Mitzen" wrote on Mon, 29 Jan 2018 13:32:49 -0800:

I'd love to hear how Marco believes that the $3500 for Enterprise offers superior value to the $500 for Visual Studio

Obviously, Microsoft doesn't need to charge what Embarcadero does to
sell development tools as their revenue streams include operating
systems and cloud services, which their Visual Studio products are
(not surprisingly) designed to support. I don't see what's so hard to
understand about that.

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Brandon Staggs
StudyLamp Software LLC
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Joseph Mitzen

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  Posted: Jan 29, 2018 3:17 PM   in response to: Brandon Staggs in response to: Brandon Staggs
Brandon Staggs wrote:
"Joseph Mitzen" wrote on Mon, 29 Jan 2018 13:32:49 -0800:

I'd love to hear how Marco believes that the $3500 for Enterprise offers superior value to the $500 for Visual Studio

Obviously, Microsoft doesn't need to charge what Embarcadero does to
sell development tools as their revenue streams include operating
systems and cloud services

That's not my problem and is completely irrelevant from the customer's perspective.

I don't see what's so hard to
understand about that.

I'm asking that about my own statement. I didn't ask anyone to explain why Microsoft might charge less money. Incidentally, I don't believe your explanation is correct. Microsoft is not subsidizing Visual Studio - in fact, the collective software tools division is far more profitable today than the operating system division! The answer to why Microsoft charges much less is simply that they sell many, many more copies. I back that up by bringing up JetBrains, part of my original answer, which doesn't have its own operating system or a cloud services division. By marketing their IDE towards many languages they are able to target a much larger audience, sell more copies, and need to make less revenue per sale. They could also create their own language, give it away for free, and see it become very popular (including just becoming an official development language for Android). :-) I didn't bring them up, but RemObjects is much smaller than Embarcadero, yet their product is cheaper and offers more languages too. It's got nothing to do with size then. Michael Thuma once wisely referred to Embarcadero as a "big iron" company, and i think it's apt. Their revenue model is simply outdated and noncompetitive today. I heard someone else say of "big iron" companies like IBM and Oracle "they don't so much have customers today as they have hostages". That seems apt in regards to Embarcadero as well.

Anyway, the question was how Marco could justify the statement "the value customers receive with our products is far superior to the cost." For the value to be superior to the cost it would need to offer more than comparably priced products. In reality, the few commercial dev tool providers that are left are, as I listed, providing much, much more for much less money. Where Microsoft's revenue streams come from in no way explains how Delphi offers more value compared to other products. It's simple math that it doesn't, which makes Marco the new David Intersimone for making wild claims about Delphi. He's like the old Joe Isuzu character now -

https://youtu.be/7gTI6KO75hY
Joseph Mitzen

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  Posted: Jan 29, 2018 5:40 PM   in response to: Joseph Mitzen in response to: Joseph Mitzen
Another counter-argument to the old chestnut about MS subsidies.... CodeGear was bought for about $30 million. EMBT was bought for $600 million dollars. Being (very) charitable and assuming Delphi doubled in value in the time leading up to the sale to Idera, that puts Delphi at just (again, charitably) 10% of EMBT's worth. Given that Idera and EMBT were said to be of similar size during the merger, that would meant that Delphi is contributing towards only about 5% of Idera's net worth now. By that thinking, EMBT and Idera database tools ought to subsidize Delphi and allow it to be sold for much cheaper. :-)

In reality, most businesses don't have "charity divisions" where they decide that the rest of the business is so profitable they can let this division lose money or break even. Now, MS did engage in similar practices in the past, but those were illegal behaviors of a monopolist: "dumping" product to drive down prices and put less well-funded competitors out of business and giving product away to gain market share in a new field and get a new monopoly. Practices like those are not seen in VS pricing today. MS already dominates the Windows IDE market for C# and C++. This would be the time in monopoly abuse when customers would be locked in, competition eliminated and prices drastically raised. Instead, VS Community Edition became free - and that itself was due to the almost all-pervading pressure of open source. Dev tools pricing is in an economic "race towards zero" thanks to open source, which makes EMBT's continued boutique pricing and price raises all the more illogical.

Edited by: Joseph Mitzen on Jan 29, 2018 5:42 PM
Brandon Staggs

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  Posted: Jan 30, 2018 10:30 AM   in response to: Joseph Mitzen in response to: Joseph Mitzen
"Joseph Mitzen" wrote on Mon, 29 Jan 2018 15:17:10 -0800:

That's not my problem and is completely irrelevant from the customer's perspective.

As a customer who personally writes a check to Embarcadero every year,
I am well aware of the "customer's perspective." It is totally
irrelevant to me what Microsoft is charging for Visual Studio. We are
not talking about buying one brand of pencil over another. They are
completely different products. That said: I know why Embarcadero
cannot compete with Microsoft on price.

--
Brandon Staggs
StudyLamp Software LLC
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Clement Doss

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  Posted: Jan 29, 2018 3:18 PM   in response to: Brandon Staggs in response to: Brandon Staggs
Obviously, Microsoft doesn't need to charge what Embarcadero does to
sell development tools as their revenue streams include operating
systems and cloud services, which their Visual Studio products are
(not surprisingly) designed to support. I don't see what's so hard to
understand about that.

"We carefully monitor competitive offerings and we strongly believe that the value customers receive with our products is far superior to the cost"
Microsoft is not only EMB competition. It's ours too. Delphi IDE is not only expensive for "one man shop" but also for companies.

IMHO EMB should focus on make the IDE much more afordable. Adding more features that makes an IDE "RAD" will only make it more expensive. I'm not saying it's not worth it. But adding feature to an expensive product will make it more expensive.
We need more options. We need a flexible IDE!! Embarcadero is not Microsoft and cannot think like Microsoft. Microsoft have illimited resources!
Embarcadero should have a unique IDE, with the basics. You need Database Access -> Download FireDAC from GetIT. You need Indy -> Download from GetIT
You need a report solution -> Download from GetIt. This way you will leverage both platform VCL and FMX. Let the developers choose what they need on their budget. This way they will really get closer to the 3 mi developers.
And there's no better argument than low prices!

Clément

John David

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  Posted: Jan 29, 2018 3:36 PM   in response to: Clement Doss in response to: Clement Doss
On 29/01/2018 23:18, Clement Doss wrote:

IMHO EMB should focus on make the IDE much more afordable. Adding more features that makes an IDE "RAD" will only make it more expensive. I'm not saying it's not worth it. But adding feature to an expensive product will make it more expensive.

Borland Pascal and first two versions of Delphi were quite reasonably
priced. I remember, I used to get flyers in the post with special
discounts and I used to buy new products when they arrived at my door.
This was the time when it was still called Borland. David Intersimone
(DI) was quite active and he knew how to market the products. I used to
attend demonstrations and they offered special pricing at the event and
it also came with an umbrella!!!

Things changed, Embarcadero took over and hiked the price of its
products. I just lost interest in them.

I am still interested in Delphi but I upgrade once every 4 years. I am
quite happy with the free versions which came out about 2 years ago.

Microsoft has one of the best Documents portal where you can get info
and examples of how to use new technologies. This attracts more [NEW]
users and so they can afford to reduce price. EMB needs to improve its
website and provide better documents and examples. In fact those who
used Turbo pascal will know that the Help file in the product was one of
the best around because it contained examples and its printed documents
were even better. Still the price was affordable.

What happened? Did they sack everybody who were dedicated to prepare
proper product documents? I am not asking for printed documents but the
pdf versions would fill the gaps.

The ordering should be made simpler; Cut out the third party (in UK it
is Grey Matters) and just use the web. This is 2018 not 1990!!

Edmund Wong

Posts: 154
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Re: Upgrade SKU to be discontinued by March 31st??
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  Posted: Feb 5, 2018 8:09 PM   in response to: John David in response to: John David
John David wrote:
What happened? Did they sack everybody who were dedicated to prepare
proper product documents? I am not asking for printed documents but the
pdf versions would fill the gaps.

The ordering should be made simpler; Cut out the third party (in UK it
is Grey Matters) and just use the web. This is 2018 not 1990!!

I have been saying this for a very VERY LONG time. It's 2018 and
I still need to go through an intermediate company to order Delphi.
To be fair, I need to do that for MSDN also.

Sucks really.

Edmund
Joseph Mitzen

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  Posted: Jan 29, 2018 3:38 PM   in response to: Clement Doss in response to: Clement Doss
Clement Doss wrote:
Let the developers choose what they need on their budget. This way they will really get closer to the 3 mi developers.

I think the fear is that most developers don't need everything they're putting in the box now and revenue would plummet if they did this. The other problem is that Delphi simply doesn't have "mind share" (isn't popular) and price alone won't drive new customers to the product (especially as Visual Studio is free for individuals and many small companies now).

They might want to look at what JetBrains is doing (and what CodeGear originally intended to do): start supporting other languages to increase their market share and revenue.
Clement Doss

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  Posted: Jan 30, 2018 1:44 PM   in response to: Joseph Mitzen in response to: Joseph Mitzen
Let the developers choose what they need on their budget. This way they will really get closer to the 3 mi developers.

I think the fear is that most developers don't need everything they're putting in the box now and revenue would plummet if they did this. The other problem is that Delphi simply doesn't have "mind share" (isn't popular) and price alone won't drive new customers to the product (especially as Visual Studio is free for individuals and many small companies now).

EMB should start thinking about what's best: 3 mi license sold since borland era (including turbo pascal alpha release), or 3 mi active user base using their lasted IDE ?
They already saw that Amnesties had an effect because a few developers took advantage of the discounts.
If they can't even convince Delphi user to pay that ludicrous price to stay up to date then how in the world they expect new user to come in? Especially youngsters!
Have you ever wondered what is more likely to happen: C#,Python, Java fellow to go Delphi or a Delphi fellow to go C#,Python, Java?
EMB needs a product line that sells a lot! Make money from large volume sell!!

Clément
Dan Barclay

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Re: Upgrade SKU to be discontinued by March 31st??
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  Posted: Jan 30, 2018 9:46 PM   in response to: Clement Doss in response to: Clement Doss
Clement Doss wrote:

... how in the world they expect new user to come in? Especially youngsters!
Have you ever wondered what is more likely to happen: C#,Python, Java fellow to go Delphi or a Delphi fellow to go C#,Python, Java?
EMB needs a product line that sells a lot! Make money from large volume sell!!

This "new user to come in" has been a key issue in the long term for some years (in the medium term now). You are always going to lose developers, even if just to straight attrition.

You have to have a pipeline that creates new users or you wither. This has been discussed for a decade or two. It's unclear how it's going to happen given pricing and learning curve. <shrug>.

Why should I/we care? If Delphi doesn't remain healthy then your own base of code, and application, is just as sick. I'd upgrade if the cost of upgrade was worth the incremental improvement I'd get. If the price was significantly lower I'd upgrade significantly sooner just to tinker with new features. My money is probably important to them in the short term (this quarter/year at most).

But, again, it's not my dollar that really counts in the long term; what counts is convincing the new guy/kid to replace me when I'm not using Delphi any more. That will affect overall product/company value far more.

Dan

Edited by: Dan Barclay on Jan 30, 2018 11:47 PM
Brandon Staggs

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  Posted: Jan 31, 2018 8:33 AM   in response to: Dan Barclay in response to: Dan Barclay
"Dan Barclay" wrote on Tue, 30 Jan 2018 21:49:36 -0800:

If the price was significantly lower I'd upgrade significantly sooner just to tinker with new features.

Only people at Emba know, but my distinct impression is that there are
not enough people to support a lower price model. There is an issue
of economics of scale here.

I don't believe for a second that Delphi is going to ever see
significant growth even if they suddenly were to magically stop
charging for it and gave even Enterprise SKUs away to anyone who
wanted it. Native development tools are ALREADY free. Get that.

They need to charge enough from their existing user base to continue
to support the product. That's reality.

--
Brandon Staggs
StudyLamp Software LLC
http://www.studylamp.com
Dan Barclay

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  Posted: Jan 31, 2018 9:04 AM   in response to: Brandon Staggs in response to: Brandon Staggs
Brandon Staggs wrote:
"Dan Barclay" wrote on Tue, 30 Jan 2018 21:49:36 -0800:

If the price was significantly lower I'd upgrade significantly sooner just to tinker with new features.

Only people at Emba know, but my distinct impression is that there are
not enough people to support a lower price model. There is an issue
of economics of scale here.

I don't believe for a second that Delphi is going to ever see
significant growth even if they suddenly were to magically stop
charging for it and gave even Enterprise SKUs away to anyone who
wanted it. Native development tools are ALREADY free. Get that.

They need to charge enough from their existing user base to continue
to support the product. That's reality.

I don't disagree with that. Your description is the current (short horizon) situation.
In case you didn't note: Your comments and mine do not conflict!

They do need to come up with a different long term strategy if they expect to have a long term. Pricing is not the only tool to use on that problem. They elected to jump into mobile development as a potential magnet, also Linux, cross platform. They still need to get new users in the pipeline, and I haven't seen a strategy for that.

Dan
Brandon Staggs

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  Posted: Jan 31, 2018 10:50 AM   in response to: Dan Barclay in response to: Dan Barclay
"Dan Barclay" wrote on Wed, 31 Jan 2018 09:04:05 -0800:

They do need to come up with a different long term strategy if they expect to have a long term. Pricing is not the only tool to use on that problem. They elected to jump into mobile development as a potential magnet, also Linux, cross platform. They still need to get new users in the pipeline, and I haven't seen a strategy for that.

I don't think there can be one. At least nothing anyone here has
posted makes any sense. "It should cost a lot less" (which is the
gist of what others are saying) doesn't cut it. If you're a young
developer, why pay a dime to work with Delphi when native tools for
the platforms are basically free and most of the jobs aren't for
Delphi anyway? I doubt seriously there is a way around these facts.
Therefore, it makes sense and is not objectionable to me that
Embarcadero would be focusing on how to stay in business and support
the product with its existing base of users.

--
Brandon Staggs
StudyLamp Software LLC
http://www.studylamp.com
Mark Marks

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  Posted: Jan 31, 2018 4:54 PM   in response to: Brandon Staggs in response to: Brandon Staggs
Brandon Staggs wrote:

"Dan Barclay" wrote on Wed, 31 Jan 2018 09:04:05 -0800:

Therefore, it makes sense and is not objectionable to me that
Embarcadero would be focusing on how to stay in business and support
the product with its existing base of users.

And that is the myopic view (might only be yours and not Delphi owner).
If all you do is shed customers (customer created product ends, people
retire, change jobs, companies retool, etc.) the product will cease to
exist.

If customers see it is the plan, current customers leaving for another
product, could accelerate.
Brandon Staggs

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  Posted: Jan 31, 2018 5:06 PM   in response to: Mark Marks in response to: Mark Marks
"Mark Marks" wrote on Wed, 31 Jan 2018 16:54:51 -0800:

And that is the myopic view (might only be yours and not Delphi owner).

It's not myopic. It's a view based on considering the various aspects
of the market, etc. I know it would be preferable to find a way to
grow the user base, but what if that is simply not possible, given the
reality that native platform development is essentially free
everywhere? Embarcadero can reduce costs all they like but in the end
they are competing with the platform vendors themselves who do not
need to sell Win32 or Android or iOs IDEs to make money. That's the
reality...

If customers see it is the plan, current customers leaving for another
product, could accelerate.

So, what is your suggestion to bring more people into the world of
Delphi? I would love to see it happen, believe me.

--
Brandon Staggs
StudyLamp Software LLC
http://www.studylamp.com
Mark Marks

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  Posted: Jan 31, 2018 6:11 PM   in response to: Brandon Staggs in response to: Brandon Staggs
Brandon Staggs wrote:

So, what is your suggestion to bring more people into the world of
Delphi? I would love to see it happen, believe me.

The traditional path is free, workable versions for students and the
same for schools. Schools like free stuff. If you do not offer new
programmers a path to your language, you will not get many new users.
Seek out the new/future programmer.

But, I see the trend. No new users = product demise. Perhaps Delphi can
last longer than I expect with the current users providing the money.
Brandon Staggs

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  Posted: Feb 1, 2018 5:37 AM   in response to: Mark Marks in response to: Mark Marks
"Mark Marks" wrote on Wed, 31 Jan 2018 18:11:30 -0800:

Brandon Staggs wrote:

So, what is your suggestion to bring more people into the world of
Delphi? I would love to see it happen, believe me.

The traditional path is free, workable versions for students and the
same for schools. Schools like free stuff. If you do not offer new
programmers a path to your language, you will not get many new users.
Seek out the new/future programmer.

Except that schools already have 100% free tools to teach the
languages and platforms that are actually in demand.

It looks to me to be a catch-22, at best.

Besides, even if Emba/Idera were to start giving away its tools en
masse to educational institutions and students, it would still need to
find a way to keep sufficient revenues coming in while all of these
students begin to learn Delphi, and we'd be right back to where we are
now.

But, I see the trend. No new users = product demise. Perhaps Delphi can
last longer than I expect with the current users providing the money.

It should last at least as long as Win32/64 "lasts," I think. There
are thousands of legacy products and toolchains that need to be
maintained for years and years to come.

Of course, we could be mistaken about the current condition of Delphi
and its growth. The only people who really know for sure are not
going to share those details.

--
Brandon Staggs
StudyLamp Software LLC
http://www.studylamp.com
Clement Doss

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  Posted: Jan 31, 2018 9:43 AM   in response to: Brandon Staggs in response to: Brandon Staggs

Only people at Emba know, but my distinct impression is that there are
not enough people to support a lower price model. There is an issue
of economics of scale here.

Sure.. The price is sky high! We use to have 2 IDEs per year in our subscription. We asked and they reduced to only one (with updates). But they kept the same price. Now we are paying for 2 IDE subscription but getting only one. . While I agree that you must balance the economics, EMB still leaves in the eighties. They should be offering a lot of "web services" (including purchasing licenses, upgrade and downgrade). The IDE should be able to download packages or "licences". For example: Purchase a Basic IDE and download the "Enterprise Package" or you could download the packages separately. They would sell a lot more and all the managing would be done by software, only a handful of people would be needed.


I don't believe for a second that Delphi is going to ever see
significant growth even if they suddenly were to magically stop
charging for it and gave even Enterprise SKUs away to anyone who
wanted it. Native development tools are ALREADY free. Get that.

They need to charge enough from their existing user base to continue
to support the product. That's reality.

Let's disagree here too <g>. I lost 7 customers (companies) that hired me 5 years ago to develop their Delphi (Enterprise SKU) mainstream product. In the last 2 years they switched to C# all new development and I kept just maintaining their product until it was phased out. Today I'm helping them with their C# mainstream product, they removed all Delphi IDE from all development machines. From a 100% delphi development company ( 3 or 4 developers) to nil% in 2 years. All that because they were charged "new users licenses". Emb have not offer any financial option, and really left them with only one choice. For less than the price they would payed EMB they moved to another platform. That's reality!

In fact, ask any other fellow developer the following question: Would you consider adding Delphi to you language portfolio? Or if you prefer, give them the choice: If you would learn a language, would it be Delphi or C++ or C# or Python or Javascript... and be prepare to a " Delphi what is that?" question.

Delphi need desperately more users and like it or not they must find the economics balance waaaaaaay down low!

Clément
Brandon Staggs

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  Posted: Jan 31, 2018 10:45 AM   in response to: Clement Doss in response to: Clement Doss
"Clement Doss" wrote on Wed, 31 Jan 2018 09:48:54 -0800:

In fact, ask any other fellow developer the following question: Would you consider adding Delphi to you language portfolio? Or if you prefer, give them the choice: If you would learn a language, would it be Delphi or C++ or C# or Python or Javascript... and be prepare to a " Delphi what is that?" question.

And my point is that I don't expect this to change, even in the
magical world where Embarcadero can stay in business giving away its
products for free.

Your example of companies removing Delphi from their workstations: do
you really believe they would have done this if they were developing
critical applications going forward with it? The fact that they could
dump the licenses shows that the product was, at best, legacy for
them. What serious business is going to pay the costs of changing
languages and platforms all because of a few thousand dollars of
annual licensing? I am only saying that companies that are dropping
Delphi are doing it because of other factors. I am sure there are
exceptions, but it is really hard to believe that Embarcadero dropping
"upgrade pricing" will affect this much.

--
Brandon Staggs
StudyLamp Software LLC
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Clement Doss

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  Posted: Jan 31, 2018 1:02 PM   in response to: Brandon Staggs in response to: Brandon Staggs
And my point is that I don't expect this to change, even in the
magical world where Embarcadero can stay in business giving away its
products for free.

Your example of companies removing Delphi from their workstations: do
you really believe they would have done this if they were developing
critical applications going forward with it? The fact that they could
dump the licenses shows that the product was, at best, legacy for
them. What serious business is going to pay the costs of changing
languages and platforms all because of a few thousand dollars of
annual licensing? I am only saying that companies that are dropping
Delphi are doing it because of other factors. I am sure there are
exceptions, but it is really hard to believe that Embarcadero dropping
"upgrade pricing" will affect this much.

The application is critical since their business depend on licensing it! It's more than believing. You can't imagine the amount of staff meeting they made. How hard it was to finally decide to ditch delphi. I participated of every meeting, and believe me the price was a huge factor.

How much is a few thousand dollars? The upgrade (no subscription) was almost the budged for the project.
Their first option was to update Delphi. When they knew the price it felt like the sky fell onto their heads. Some thought they were going out of business.
And that few thousand dollars made the difference. I can assure you. They try to negotiate when some Amnesties were offered. But once again the cost was to high and EMB gave them no choice. They couldn't even downgrade to professional. Even when downgrading you still pay the new user value. Anyway. Believe me they tried a lot believing they would go out of business.

May be you are forgetting that it's nearly impossible to use "Stock Delphi". Even with the Enterprise SKU. You almost certainly will need to pay extra for 3rd party library to complete the enterprise SKU. So it's not a few thousand for EMB. But also a few thousand for the 3rd party component you must have to fill the void / bug / memory leaks/ performace that EMB is not fixing since forever that those partners have.

Don't get me wrong, I love Delphi (apparently more than EMB itself) and I still believe in Delphi. I'm writing an entire n-tier ERP from scratch using Delphi, DevExpress, NexusDB, ReportBuilder, TMS Flexcel, RTC and ICS. But I also have to finance myself by consulting and developing for others. And no one requested new projects in Delphi for a long time. It's always some company that already have a Delphi project that can't find a developer. And usually they are using an old IDE version. I'm writing my ERP using Tokyo, but I have to keep XE because the market is still using it (while porting to C# or Java) and won't upgrade because EMB help them move on <g>

Clément
Brandon Staggs

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  Posted: Jan 31, 2018 2:10 PM   in response to: Clement Doss in response to: Clement Doss
"Clement Doss" wrote on Wed, 31 Jan 2018 13:02:54 -0800:

I participated of every meeting, and believe me the price was a huge factor.

Okay, I believe you. :-) Problem is, changing platforms and
frameworks has its own costs. If they decided those costs are lower
than continuing to license new releases of Delphi on a subscription
basis, then... okay. When you factor in the costs of finding
qualified Delphi developers, compared to devs of the common platforms,
I could see easily making the choice not to use Delphi *on a new
project*.

You almost certainly will need to pay extra for 3rd party library to complete

Okay, but this is not related to subscription costs of Delphi. I
understand it is an additional cost, but third party components are
not just a Delphi thing. The big Dev Express ad on top of my MSDN
magazine every month tells me that much.

And no one requested new projects in Delphi for a long time. It's always some company that already have a Delphi project that can't find a developer.

My experience as well. But for me, this comes down to the fact that I
really want Embarcadero to stick around as long as possible. I do not
think they will ever find a way to grow Delphi. Not because I don't
love Delphi -- I really do -- but just because of how the market
works. So I expect that the costs of maintaining Delphi will continue
to be shifted into the current user base as new licensee acquisition
continues to decline.

I understand some people think the decline is "because of
Embarcadero." I think it's just because most people don't have any
reason to use Delphi.

Don't get me wrong, I have a litany of complaints against Delphi/Emba
on a host of issues. This just isn't one of them.

--
Brandon Staggs
StudyLamp Software LLC
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Clement Doss

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  Posted: Feb 2, 2018 10:02 AM   in response to: Brandon Staggs in response to: Brandon Staggs

Okay, I believe you. :-) Problem is, changing platforms and
frameworks has its own costs. If they decided those costs are lower
than continuing to license new releases of Delphi on a subscription
basis, then... okay. When you factor in the costs of finding
qualified Delphi developers, compared to devs of the common platforms,
I could see easily making the choice not to use Delphi *on a new
project*.

Delphi is the best language for windows. They know it. One of them were using Delphi since Delphi 4.
They jumped to Delphi 7 to Delphi 2010 and stayed in XE. All new licenses. At that time there was no subscription.
I believe the price really just opened their (our) eyes. It's hard to find Delphi dev. There is very few books. The examples are old (but working).
The tools in the IDE are not even close to what they should be for the price EMB charges. Take for example importing XML, XSD, Datasnap and JSON they start doing something on Delphi/Tokyo only.


You almost certainly will need to pay extra for 3rd party library to complete

Okay, but this is not related to subscription costs of Delphi. I
understand it is an additional cost, but third party components are
not just a Delphi thing. The big Dev Express ad on top of my MSDN
magazine every month tells me that much.

One more reason to focus on the basics. Let the user decide what 3rd party they will purchase.

My experience as well. But for me, this comes down to the fact that I
really want Embarcadero to stick around as long as possible. I do not
think they will ever find a way to grow Delphi. Not because I don't
love Delphi -- I really do -- but just because of how the market
works. So I expect that the costs of maintaining Delphi will continue
to be shifted into the current user base as new licensee acquisition
continues to decline.

EMB can stick around as long as there are developer paying. We agreed there are no youngsters among us. That is a big issue.


I understand some people think the decline is "because of
Embarcadero." I think it's just because most people don't have any
reason to use Delphi.

Here delphi costs a lot. I believe among the most expensive licences. The ratio between the an average developer salary and a delphi professional license is 3.8 and 4.0. The fellow need almost 4x it's salary to purchase one license of professional. That's a good reason not to use it. If thoses fellows don't get a chance to learn Delphi they won't apply for Delphi job. The company looking for Delphi developers won't find any and will have no reason to stick to an expensive tool with expensive ecosystem.

I think Emb should consider starting a new product line: Delphi Community SKU ( or something like that ).
Free download. Then charge for the component/library downloaded from GetIt. Just like Google Store, Apple Store, Windows Store. Let we have an Embarcadero Store. Make it very easy to upload component and library there. Emb can charge a % of the license to make a profit. IMHO that will be a good way to go.
For example: University will not required to sell commercially, so the basic version can start like that. If someone what to sell commercially, they can download a comercial license for Student, Professional, Enterprise and even Architect. Each type of license would allow to download free products. For example: Datasnap is available to download for free when purchasing Enterprise or Architect license. It would be a payed download for professional and Student. EMB would make it's money anyway.

Clément

Brandon Staggs

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  Posted: Feb 2, 2018 11:45 AM   in response to: Clement Doss in response to: Clement Doss
"Clement Doss" wrote on Fri, 2 Feb 2018 10:02:16 -0800:

The tools in the IDE are not even close to what they should be for the price EMB charges

I agree I would like to see them beef up the IDE. Warren Postma makes
good points here:

http://delphicodemonkey.blogspot.com/2018/01/how-to-bring-delphi-back-from-life.html

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Brandon Staggs
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Brandon Staggs

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  Posted: Feb 2, 2018 11:49 AM   in response to: Clement Doss in response to: Clement Doss
"Clement Doss" wrote on Fri, 2 Feb 2018 10:02:16 -0800:

Here delphi costs a lot. I believe among the most expensive licences. The ratio between the an average developer salary and a delphi professional license is 3.8 and 4.0.

I think this is where I have a hard time understanding -- Where I
live, the cost of a Delphi license is extremely small compared to
other costs of doing business. I am a one-man-shop Delphi contract
developer and micro-ISV, and the cost of Delphi for my business is so
minimal it doesn't even register as a sigh when I write the check --
compared to other things, like my internet service or hardware
purchases. When I still held an MSDN subscription for Visual Studio,
it was just about the same annual cost as my Delphi subscription.

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Brandon Staggs
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Alexander Elagin

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  Posted: Feb 5, 2018 10:51 PM   in response to: Brandon Staggs in response to: Brandon Staggs
Brandon Staggs wrote:
I think this is where I have a hard time understanding -- Where I
live, the cost of a Delphi license is extremely small compared to
other costs of doing business. I am a one-man-shop Delphi contract
developer and micro-ISV, and the cost of Delphi for my business is so
minimal it doesn't even register as a sigh when I write the check --
compared to other things, like my internet service or hardware
purchases.

Where I live (Moscow), the price of Delphi Pro upgrade alone roughly equals 50 months of 150 Mbit/s fiber internet access.
Mike Margerum

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  Posted: Feb 2, 2018 8:49 PM   in response to: Clement Doss in response to: Clement Doss
On 1/29/18 6:19 PM, Clement Doss wrote:
Obviously, Microsoft doesn't need to charge what Embarcadero does to
sell development tools as their revenue streams include operating
systems and cloud services, which their Visual Studio products are
(not surprisingly) designed to support. I don't see what's so hard to
understand about that.

"We carefully monitor competitive offerings and we strongly believe that the value customers receive with our products is far superior to the cost"
Microsoft is not only EMB competition. It's ours too. Delphi IDE is not only expensive for "one man shop" but also for companies.

IMHO EMB should focus on make the IDE much more afordable. Adding more features that makes an IDE "RAD" will only make it more expensive. I'm not saying it's not worth it. But adding feature to an expensive product will make it more expensive.
We need more options. We need a flexible IDE!! Embarcadero is not Microsoft and cannot think like Microsoft. Microsoft have illimited resources!
Embarcadero should have a unique IDE, with the basics. You need Database Access -> Download FireDAC from GetIT. You need Indy -> Download from GetIT
You need a report solution -> Download from GetIt. This way you will leverage both platform VCL and FMX. Let the developers choose what they need on their budget. This way they will really get closer to the 3 mi developers.
And there's no better argument than low prices!

Clément


They should figure out how to leverage Web Assembly to build apps RAD
style with reactive UI. I've seen the light on this after completing my
first web app in Go + Vue.js + Vuex + Vuetify . Entire stack is open
source and I had 0 issues building the app. Was a great experience all
around. I found JS to actually be liberating. 3k loc for the front
end. Would have been 10x in delphi or any other traditional front end.
Arthur Hoornweg

Posts: 414
Registered: 6/2/98
Re: Upgrade SKU to be discontinued by March 31st??
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  Posted: Feb 6, 2018 6:28 AM   in response to: Clement Doss in response to: Clement Doss
Clement Doss wrote:

"Value customers receive with out product is far superior to the cost". I'm not quite sure to understand what he meant.
"Far" and "Superior" are too damn close! Pratically any "less superior" IDE (Including Notepad++ ) are drawing circles around many RAD features.

I downloaded the Delphi & Rad Studio feature matrix last week because I wanted to know if it's worthwhile to jump on the subscription wagon or not. The problem is, it is a 25-page document and 95% of the features mentioned were already in the product ages ago. Also it's not clear which features are actively maintained and which are clinically dead. For example, the feature matrix dedicates 5 pages to HTML5 Builder and that team no longer exists afaik. So it's pretty darn hard to filter out what new/current stuff you're getting if you're already a Delphi owner and want to pay for the upgrade.

Brandon Staggs

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Registered: 3/3/01
Re: Upgrade SKU to be discontinued by March 31st?? [Edit]
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  Posted: Jan 29, 2018 1:53 PM   in response to: Jan Martin Pett... in response to: Jan Martin Pett...
"Jan Martin Pettersen" wrote on Sat, 27 Jan 2018 16:32:18 -0800:

Everybody buys at "New User" price every time a new version is released?

Not if you are subscription, which is the only thing that makes sense
these days. You can get away with an old version for vanilla Windows
desktop dev, but all of the other platforms are moving targets. Thus,
the only sensible way to buy Delphi is on subscription. For those of
us who decided to do that years ago, this whole thing is kind of a
tempest in a teapot...

--
Brandon Staggs
StudyLamp Software LLC
http://www.studylamp.com
Luigi Sandon

Posts: 353
Registered: 10/15/99
Re: Upgrade SKU to be discontinued by March 31st?? [Edit]
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  Posted: Jan 30, 2018 11:35 AM   in response to: Brandon Staggs in response to: Brandon Staggs
Brandon Staggs wrote:
You can get away with an old version for vanilla Windows
desktop dev,

What makes you believe this is not what some Delphi users exactly need?

It's years I have no use for Delphi but for some quick Windows desktop application and utilities. Which don't really justify upgrading each year, or even a subscription.

For everything else, there are better and cheaper tools. It looks I already bought my last version of Delphi.
Brandon Staggs

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Registered: 3/3/01
Re: Upgrade SKU to be discontinued by March 31st?? [Edit]
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  Posted: Jan 30, 2018 7:06 PM   in response to: Luigi Sandon in response to: Luigi Sandon
"Luigi Sandon" wrote on Tue, 30 Jan 2018 11:35:42 -0800:

You can get away with an old version for vanilla Windows
desktop dev,

What makes you believe this is not what some Delphi users exactly need?

I am sure it is.

It's years I have no use for Delphi but for some quick Windows desktop application and utilities. Which don't really justify upgrading each year, or even a subscription.

For everything else, there are better and cheaper tools. It looks I already bought my last version of Delphi.

Fair enough. As you said above, you haven't "justified" upgrading for
years. So the change doesn't impact you at all, does it? Or did you
mean something else?

And honestly, if all you want are some "quick Windows desktop
application" now and then, you could just be using Lazarus, or Delphi
7 still. How could Embarcadero ever offer you something new worth
paying for? They couldn't anyway-- you have all you need, by your own
words. So why complain about the change?

--
Brandon Staggs
StudyLamp Software LLC
http://www.studylamp.com
Luigi Sandon

Posts: 353
Registered: 10/15/99
Re: Upgrade SKU to be discontinued by March 31st?? [Edit]
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  Posted: Jan 31, 2018 6:01 AM   in response to: Brandon Staggs in response to: Brandon Staggs
I am sure it is.

As usual, wishful thinking. Delphi outside Windows desktop applications, offers very little against competition.

years. So the change doesn't impact you at all, does it? Or did you
mean something else?

Since Delphi ceased to be our main tool for development, we upgraded only on an "as needed" basis. When new Windows version, or new Delphi features, made an upgrade appealing, we did. A subscription for us no longer makes sense, it would be wasted money.

And honestly, if all you want are some "quick Windows desktop
application" now and then, you could just be using Lazarus, or Delphi

Yes, probably we well move to Lazarus to reuse some Pascal code for a while, but it's clear now it's better to deprecate it as well and move fully to other languages.

7 still. How could Embarcadero ever offer you something new worth
paying for? They couldn't anyway-- you have all you need, by your own

As said, newer Windows releases support. Delphi 7 can't compile 64 bit applications, and may use old and deprecated APIs.
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: Upgrade SKU to be discontinued by March 31st?? [Edit]
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  Posted: Feb 5, 2018 2:50 PM   in response to: Luigi Sandon in response to: Luigi Sandon
Luigi Sandon wrote:

I am sure it is.

As usual, wishful thinking. Delphi outside Windows desktop
applications, offers very little against competition.

It offers FMX and Delphi. Seriously compare that with the competition
and you'll see it is really worth the while.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"I've just learned about his illness. Let's hope it's nothing
trivial." -- Irvin S. Cobb
Dominique Willems

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Re: Upgrade SKU to be discontinued by March 31st?? [Edit]
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  Posted: Jan 31, 2018 8:43 AM   in response to: Jan Martin Pett... in response to: Jan Martin Pett...
I'm getting the impression the market is getting ripe for a commercial
OO-Pascal competitor, maybe Windows-only. It wouldn't be hard to beat
the current offering's prices, and a fresh take on what a modern IDE
should look like would be welcomed.

Include a smooth conversion path, and bingo.
Brandon Staggs

Posts: 683
Registered: 3/3/01
Re: Upgrade SKU to be discontinued by March 31st?? [Edit]
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  Posted: Jan 31, 2018 10:56 AM   in response to: Dominique Willems in response to: Dominique Willems
"Dominique Willems" wrote on Wed, 31 Jan 2018 08:43:52 -0800:

I'm getting the impression the market is getting ripe for a commercial
OO-Pascal competitor, maybe Windows-only. It wouldn't be hard to beat
the current offering's prices, and a fresh take on what a modern IDE
should look like would be welcomed.

Include a smooth conversion path, and bingo.

I don't see how anyone could do this without competing solely on the
basis of price, which is an awful business model to start with,
especially since the current low price is $0 (Lazarus). I also think
you are underestimating the amount of work it would take to make a
"smooth conversion path." You don't get to copy and paste VCL code to
make it happen.

--
Brandon Staggs
StudyLamp Software LLC
http://www.studylamp.com
Dominique Willems

Posts: 591
Registered: 10/26/99
Re: Upgrade SKU to be discontinued by March 31st?? [Edit]
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  Posted: Jan 31, 2018 3:06 PM   in response to: Brandon Staggs in response to: Brandon Staggs
Brandon Staggs wrote:
I don't see how anyone could do this without competing solely on the
basis of price

You don't see how anyone could improve on the existing Delphi offering?

which is an awful business model to start with,
especially since the current low price is $0 (Lazarus).

Does Lazarus have a modern IDE? You don't see how a full-time paid team
could improve on it?

I also think
you are underestimating the amount of work it would take to make a
"smooth conversion path." You don't get to copy and paste VCL code to
make it happen.

I'd settle for a bumpy one then.
Brandon Staggs

Posts: 683
Registered: 3/3/01
Re: Upgrade SKU to be discontinued by March 31st?? [Edit]
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  Posted: Jan 31, 2018 3:14 PM   in response to: Dominique Willems in response to: Dominique Willems
"Dominique Willems" wrote on Wed, 31 Jan 2018 15:06:13 -0800:

I'd settle for a bumpy one then.

I am sure some would, but personally, I am not interested in a "bumpy
path" to some new OO IDE just to save a few hundred a year. I know
the costs are higher for enterprises, but it's difficult to imagine
how a company could really carve out the niche you suggest and be
viable.

--
Brandon Staggs
StudyLamp Software LLC
http://www.studylamp.com
Dominique Willems

Posts: 591
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Re: Upgrade SKU to be discontinued by March 31st?? [Edit]
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  Posted: Jan 31, 2018 3:32 PM   in response to: Brandon Staggs in response to: Brandon Staggs
Brandon Staggs wrote:
I am sure some would, but personally, I am not interested in a "bumpy
path" to some new OO IDE just to save a few hundred a year. I know
the costs are higher for enterprises, but it's difficult to imagine
how a company could really carve out the niche you suggest and be
viable.

You're reasoning from the perspective of the existing Delphi user, and
are rather resigned to the notion that it's become little more than a
legacy environment for existing applications.

I'm sure there is quite a large niche for (new) developers who want to
venture into native Windows development, in an attractive contemporary
environment. You'd need a commercial company to arrange the
advertising, though.
Brandon Staggs

Posts: 683
Registered: 3/3/01
Re: Upgrade SKU to be discontinued by March 31st?? [Edit]
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  Posted: Jan 31, 2018 5:00 PM   in response to: Dominique Willems in response to: Dominique Willems
"Dominique Willems" wrote on Wed, 31 Jan 2018 15:32:36 -0800:

Brandon Staggs wrote:
I am sure some would, but personally, I am not interested in a "bumpy
path" to some new OO IDE just to save a few hundred a year. I know
the costs are higher for enterprises, but it's difficult to imagine
how a company could really carve out the niche you suggest and be
viable.

You're reasoning from the perspective of the existing Delphi user, and

Well yeah, that's kind of the point of having a "path."

are rather resigned to the notion that it's become little more than a
legacy environment for existing applications.

I think that is largely the case. Although I know of and work on new
application development with Delphi, it would seem right now that
Win32/64 is pretty much legacy altogether. It won't disappear any
time soon, of course...

I'm sure there is quite a large niche for (new) developers who want to
venture into native Windows development, in an attractive contemporary
environment.

Visual Studio Community Edition is a free way to do that, and with
languages that are basically ubiquitous. Object Pascal is, in my
opinion, better, but that doesn't mean there are many people out there
who have a clue about Object Pascal let alone want to buy an IDE
not-by-Embarcadero to use it...

You'd need a commercial company to arrange the
advertising, though.

You need a viable market. If someone wants to sell an Object Pascal
IDE for Win32/64 development, they have to poach users from Lazarus
(free) and Delphi (mature and robust) and if they are going to compete
on this field with Delphi, they'll need to start with something that
competes with VCL...

Good luck with all that. :-)

--
Brandon Staggs
StudyLamp Software LLC
http://www.studylamp.com
Joseph Mitzen

Posts: 392
Registered: 6/9/02
Re: Upgrade SKU to be discontinued by March 31st?? [Edit]
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  Posted: Feb 9, 2018 5:15 PM   in response to: Dominique Willems in response to: Dominique Willems
Dominique Willems wrote:
Brandon Staggs wrote:

You're reasoning from the perspective of the existing Delphi user, and
are rather resigned to the notion that it's become little more than a
legacy environment for existing applications.

I'm sure there is quite a large niche for (new) developers who want to
venture into native Windows development, in an attractive contemporary
environment.

I still don't see how this can work. New developers who want to venture into Windows development download Visual Studio Community Edition for free. They get C#, C++, ASP.NET, Javascript, Typescript, F#, Visual Basic, Python and R and a world-class IDE with an enormous amount of third-party plugins. Actually, one of those would be RemObjects' open source Swift compiler, so add the Swift language in too. Oh wait, they also get Xamarin for mobile development and Unity game engine support for games.

So who represents this vast untapped market of people who want to pay more money to program in Pascal, but less money than Delphi costs? What advantages would they gain over using Visual Studio and any of its multitude of languages and frameworks?

We've got the twin problems of Pascal just not being relevant anymore and the cost of most dev tools racing towards zero (many are already there). There really isn't a role for Delphi anymore other than maintaining legacy apps. Jumping into mobile was a good idea, bu they both waited too late then shipped too soon. They can't execute consistently, and that was before a lot of the firings and cost cuttings. Even if they had a new plan they no longer have the talent to reliably execute it. I wish it was different, but I think the window to make a difference closed many years ago. Had they targeted multiple languages/platforms like JetBrains did to bring in the extra revenue and leveraged other platforms and modernized the language like RemObjects did they might have stood a chance of making a comeback. Instead they threw out the CodeGear game plan, aliened RemObjects and then trimmed their talent to the bone to pursue short-term quarterly number boosts and find a buyer. It's a case of winning the battle but losing the war.
Mike Margerum

Posts: 590
Registered: 12/1/99
Re: Upgrade SKU to be discontinued by March 31st?? [Edit]
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  Posted: Feb 10, 2018 2:25 PM   in response to: Joseph Mitzen in response to: Joseph Mitzen
I still don't see how this can work. New developers who want to venture into Windows development download Visual Studio Community Edition for free. They get C#, C++, ASP.NET, Javascript, Typescript, F#, Visual Basic, Python and R and a world-class IDE with an enormous amount of third-party plugins. Actually, one of those would be RemObjects' open source Swift compiler, so add the Swift language in too. Oh wait, they also get Xamarin for mobile development and Unity game engine support for games.

So who represents this vast untapped market of people who want to pay more money to program in Pascal, but less money than Delphi costs? What advantages would they gain over using Visual Studio and any of its multitude of languages and frameworks?

At least for me it was mostly one thing. Single exe deployment. That
was very important in 2004 when i started this app and the .net runtime
was not included with the OS and was a moving target. Not so much
anymore. I'm not sure I could some up with a compelling reason to start
a new project in delphi at this point unless they somehow straighten out
FMX. Even then its too much water under that bridge.
Matthew Jones

Posts: 337
Registered: 1/25/98
Re: Upgrade SKU to be discontinued by March 31st?? [Edit]
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  Posted: Feb 12, 2018 2:51 AM   in response to: Joseph Mitzen in response to: Joseph Mitzen
Joseph Mitzen wrote:

Jumping into mobile was a good idea, bu they both waited too late then shipped too soon.

The biggest mistake was breaking the codebase. They talked the talk ("we understand that code compatibility is important") but didn't walk the walk ("different memory management, zero based strings") which meant that, after the initial proof of concept proved it was possible to use the code-managed memory model on mobile, you could not just take proven code to mobile. That killed it for me.

I'm sure it is still very good for many people, but you'd have to be very much into Delphi already to start any new major project in it today. For me, it is very much maintenance mode as it doesn't fit the modern needs as well as other tools.
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: Upgrade SKU to be discontinued by March 31st?? [Edit]
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  Posted: Feb 12, 2018 5:36 AM   in response to: Matthew Jones in response to: Matthew Jones
Matthew Jones wrote:

Joseph Mitzen wrote:

Jumping into mobile was a good idea, bu they both waited too late
then shipped too soon.

The biggest mistake was breaking the codebase. They talked the talk
("we understand that code compatibility is important") but didn't
walk the walk ("different memory management, zero based strings")

The zero-based strings thing can easily be turned off and is only
important for plain indexing, for nothing else. No big deal.

The different memory management, i.e. ARC, makes a lot of sense. You
may not like it (for whatever obscure reason), but it does not "break
the codebase".

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Civilization began the first time an angry person cast a word
instead of a rock." -- Sigmund Freud
Matthew Jones

Posts: 337
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Re: Upgrade SKU to be discontinued by March 31st?? [Edit]
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  Posted: Feb 12, 2018 6:00 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB, MVP) wrote:

but it does not "break
the codebase".

So I could take all my existing code that did complex data management and not change anything? I shall have to try it again.
Rudy Velthuis (...


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  Posted: Feb 13, 2018 4:07 PM   in response to: Matthew Jones in response to: Matthew Jones
Matthew Jones wrote:

Rudy Velthuis (TeamB, MVP) wrote:

but it does not "break
the codebase".

So I could take all my existing code that did complex data management
and not change anything? I shall have to try it again.

It depends how you do your "data management". If you use, say, hacks
like storing data in single-byte-encoded strings, then probably not.
Ifm however, you code properly then there will not be too many problems.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

Parkinson's Law: Work expands to fill the time available for its
completion.
Matthew Jones

Posts: 337
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Re: Upgrade SKU to be discontinued by March 31st?? [Edit]
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  Posted: Feb 14, 2018 1:58 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB, MVP) wrote:

It depends how you do your "data management".

So I can just use the usual

myObject := TSomething.Create;
try
//do stuff
finally
myObject.Free;
end;

And not worry about ARC or anything? If the code is all fully compatible without any change why is this not made clearer? My understanding is I had to stop calling .Free.
Lajos Juhasz

Posts: 801
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Re: Upgrade SKU to be discontinued by March 31st?? [Edit]
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  Posted: Feb 14, 2018 2:10 AM   in response to: Matthew Jones in response to: Matthew Jones
Matthew Jones wrote:

Rudy Velthuis (TeamB, MVP) wrote:

It depends how you do your "data management".

So I can just use the usual

myObject := TSomething.Create;
try
//do stuff
finally
myObject.Free;
end;

And not worry about ARC or anything? If the code is all fully
compatible without any change why is this not made clearer? My
understanding is I had to stop calling .Free.

In my opinion it was well explained. For example you could read:
http://docwiki.embarcadero.com/RADStudio/Tokyo/en/Automatic_Reference_Counting_in_Delphi_Mobile_Compilers.
Dalija Prasnikar

Posts: 2,325
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Re: Upgrade SKU to be discontinued by March 31st?? [Edit]
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  Posted: Feb 14, 2018 3:37 AM   in response to: Matthew Jones in response to: Matthew Jones
Matthew Jones wrote:
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB, MVP) wrote:

It depends how you do your "data management".

So I can just use the usual

myObject := TSomething.Create;
try
//do stuff
finally
myObject.Free;
end;

And not worry about ARC or anything? If the code is all fully compatible without any change why is this not made clearer? My understanding is I had to stop calling .Free.

Code is not fully compatible without any changes.

But changes depend on the code.

If you have code that must work with both compilers, you
would use the code like above, unless you are dealing
with TComponent descendant where DisposeOf would
be necessary instead of Free.

If you have plain ARC code then you would just create object
with myObject := TSomething.Create; and it would be autobatically
released when that myObject reference goes out of scope.

And with ARC you have to pay attention to circular references that
require making non owning reference as weak.

This is just short summary, of course.

--
Dalija Prasnikar
Embarcadero MVP
https://dalijap.blogspot.com/
Delphi Memory Management for Classic and ARC Compilers
https://dalija.prasnikar.info/delphimm/
Matthew Jones

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Re: Upgrade SKU to be discontinued by March 31st?? [Edit]
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  Posted: Feb 14, 2018 6:14 AM   in response to: Dalija Prasnikar in response to: Dalija Prasnikar
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:

Code is not fully compatible without any changes.

Indeed, having read the page Lajos linked to, it is clear that the code is not "just compatible" so Rudy is wrong, and the codebase is not swappable instantly. As I recall it. Ah well.
Dalija Prasnikar

Posts: 2,325
Registered: 11/9/99
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  Posted: Feb 14, 2018 6:41 AM   in response to: Matthew Jones in response to: Matthew Jones
Matthew Jones wrote:
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:

Code is not fully compatible without any changes.

Indeed, having read the page Lajos linked to, it is clear that the code is not "just compatible" so Rudy is wrong, and the codebase is not swappable instantly. As I recall it. Ah well.

Yep, Rudy is wrong.

Your code would compile, but would not work properly as-is without modifications.

In theory you could have Hello World app, and even a slightly more complicated
one that would work without the need to change anything.

But I suspect, you would not find such apps in real life. And it does not
have anything to do with hacking or using bad coding practices.

It is just that ARC and manual memory management have slightly different
rules. And while there is significant overlap, those "minor" differences are
huge enough to mandate code changes.

--
Dalija Prasnikar
Embarcadero MVP
https://dalijap.blogspot.com/
Delphi Memory Management for Classic and ARC Compilers
https://dalija.prasnikar.info/delphimm/

Rudy Velthuis (...


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  Posted: Feb 17, 2018 10:06 AM   in response to: Dalija Prasnikar in response to: Dalija Prasnikar
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:

Indeed, having read the page Lajos linked to, it is clear that the
code is not "just compatible" so Rudy is wrong, and the codebase is
not swappable instantly. As I recall it. Ah well.

Yep, Rudy is wrong.

Impossible! <g>

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"The difference between fiction and reality? Fiction has to make
sense." -- Tom Clancy

Brandon Staggs

Posts: 683
Registered: 3/3/01
Re: Upgrade SKU to be discontinued by March 31st?? [Edit]
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  Posted: Feb 14, 2018 6:25 AM   in response to: Dalija Prasnikar in response to: Dalija Prasnikar
"Dalija Prasnikar" wrote on Wed, 14 Feb 2018 03:37:34 -0800:

This is just short summary, of course.

There is a great book on the details. :-)

--
Brandon Staggs
StudyLamp Software LLC
http://www.studylamp.com
Dalija Prasnikar

Posts: 2,325
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  Posted: Feb 14, 2018 6:42 AM   in response to: Brandon Staggs in response to: Brandon Staggs
Brandon Staggs wrote:
"Dalija Prasnikar" wrote on Wed, 14 Feb 2018 03:37:34 -0800:

This is just short summary, of course.

There is a great book on the details. :-)

Thanks :)

--
Dalija Prasnikar
Embarcadero MVP
https://dalijap.blogspot.com/
Delphi Memory Management for Classic and ARC Compilers
https://dalija.prasnikar.info/delphimm/

Rudy Velthuis (...


Posts: 7,731
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  Posted: Feb 17, 2018 10:04 AM   in response to: Dalija Prasnikar in response to: Dalija Prasnikar
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:

Matthew Jones wrote:
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB, MVP) wrote:

It depends how you do your "data management".

So I can just use the usual

myObject := TSomething.Create;
try
//do stuff
finally
myObject.Free;
end;

And not worry about ARC or anything? If the code is all fully
compatible without any change why is this not made clearer? My
understanding is I had to stop calling .Free.

Code is not fully compatible without any changes.

But changes depend on the code.

Exactly. Lots of low level (possibly Windows-specific) code won't port
easily.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"You know, sometimes a man just can't satisfy all of a woman's
desires. Which is why God invented dental floss."
-- Author Unknown

Matthew Jones

Posts: 337
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  Posted: Feb 19, 2018 2:11 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB, MVP) wrote:

Exactly. Lots of low level (possibly Windows-specific) code won't port
easily.

This is simply wrong. If you have some code that writes to a stream, and then free's that stream, and then you go to rename the stream, you will find it is still locked because it wasn't disposed of. And that is perfectly normal code. Unless the code can be used as-is, then the claim of compatibility fails, and it knocked the viability of the new system a lot. This is all water under the bridge now, but it should have taken the "horrible" choice of making .Free do a .DisposeOf in the ARC code. Then, it should have added new methods across both which allow for you to relax the release, so that .Release or something says that you don't care about lifetime, for example. That way we could have taken all existing code and known it would work exactly as expected, and made small changes to improve performance.

But too late to fix probably, so we are where we are.
Rudy Velthuis (...


Posts: 7,731
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  Posted: Feb 21, 2018 7:35 AM   in response to: Matthew Jones in response to: Matthew Jones
Matthew Jones wrote:

Rudy Velthuis (TeamB, MVP) wrote:

Exactly. Lots of low level (possibly Windows-specific) code won't
port easily.

This is simply wrong. If you have some code that writes to a stream,
and then free's that stream, and then you go to rename the stream,
you will find it is still locked because it wasn't disposed of. And
that is perfectly normal code. Unless the code can be used as-is,
then the claim of compatibility fails <yadayada>

I wrote: "If, however, you code properly then there will not be too
many problems."

I didn't say there would be zero problems, right? Just "not too many",
and I still claim that is correct.

FWIW, I usually rename the original file, then open a new file with the
old name and then write to that.
--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Computers make it easier to do a lot of things, but most of the
things they make it easier to do don't need to be done."
-- Andy Rooney.
Matthew Jones

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  Posted: Feb 23, 2018 1:07 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB, MVP) wrote:

I didn't say there would be zero problems, right? Just "not too many",
and I still claim that is correct.

I said "you could not just take proven code to mobile" and " I could take all my existing code that did complex data management and not change anything?"

You said "you code properly then there will not be too many problems".

I guess that my interpretation was that my proven code would not be completely reliable, and that is right, thus the change broke it. My point is made - the change meant you could not rely on existing proven code. It is water under the bridge, but it was a bad choice. Now we must live it it, or perhaps just not adopt the new platforms if we don't want to. I''m sure it works well for some, but not all.
Rudy Velthuis (...


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  Posted: Feb 23, 2018 9:32 AM   in response to: Matthew Jones in response to: Matthew Jones
Matthew Jones wrote:

You said "you code properly then there will not be too many
problems".

I guess that my interpretation was that my proven code would not be
completely reliable, and that is right, thus the change broke it.

You even repeated what I said. Which part didn't you understand?

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"The shepherd always tries to persuade the sheep that their
interests and his own are the same." -- Marie Beyle

Matthew Jones

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  Posted: Feb 24, 2018 2:15 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB, MVP) wrote:

Which part didn't you understand?

I didn't understand how "may cause problems" could be interpreted as "it will work without change". I need 100% working, otherwise it is not code compatible. To say "it will compile but might not work, so we are fully compatible as you need" doesn't cut the mustard.

What part of "breaking the codebase" don't you understand?
Brandon Staggs

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  Posted: Feb 19, 2018 5:49 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
"Rudy Velthuis" wrote on Sat, 17 Feb 2018 10:04:57 -0800:

Exactly. Lots of low level (possibly Windows-specific) code won't port
easily.

It doesn't have to be low-level Windows API. That would have made it
a lot easier...

--
Brandon Staggs
StudyLamp Software LLC
http://www.studylamp.com
Jeff Overcash (...

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  Posted: Feb 14, 2018 9:53 AM   in response to: Matthew Jones in response to: Matthew Jones
On 2/14/2018 4:58 AM, Matthew Jones wrote:
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB, MVP) wrote:

It depends how you do your "data management".

So I can just use the usual

myObject := TSomething.Create;
try
//do stuff
finally
myObject.Free;
end;

And not worry about ARC or anything? If the code is all fully compatible without any change why is this not made clearer? My understanding is I had to stop calling .Free.

.Free maps to assigning to nil under ARC.

myObject.Free; // Non Arc
becomes
myObject := nil; // under arc by the compiler

The only time you have to worry is when an object participates in a model that
has extra links held (like FMX's Ownership where the owner stores a reference to
the child in a TList) then you need to call DisposeOf. In those cases the Owner
is usually the one in charge of cleaning up the children when it is freed and
the children should only hold [weak] references to the owner. Earlier freeing
of a child you'd call DisposeOf. Although a lot of container type early free
operations is more the pattern 1) remove from container 2) free the removed
object. That pattern needs no change.

--
Jeff Overcash (TeamB)
(Please do not email me directly unless asked. Thank You)
Learning is finding out what you already know. Doing is demonstrating that you
know it. Teaching is reminding others that they know it as well as you. We are
all leaners, doers, teachers. (R Bach)
Brandon Staggs

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  Posted: Feb 12, 2018 6:03 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
"Rudy Velthuis" wrote on Mon, 12 Feb 2018 05:36:27 -0800:

The different memory management, i.e. ARC, makes a lot of sense. You
may not like it (for whatever obscure reason), but it does not "break
the codebase".

The problem is that if you want to write cross-platform code that is
not just for mobile, you have to now concern yourself with how ARC
works AND still handle memory management. So you get ARC but none of
the code-side benefits of it.

--
Brandon Staggs
StudyLamp Software LLC
http://www.studylamp.com
Rudy Velthuis (...


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  Posted: Feb 13, 2018 4:12 PM   in response to: Brandon Staggs in response to: Brandon Staggs
Brandon Staggs wrote:

"Rudy Velthuis" wrote on Mon, 12 Feb 2018 05:36:27 -0800:

The different memory management, i.e. ARC, makes a lot of sense. You
may not like it (for whatever obscure reason), but it does not
"break the codebase".

The problem is that if you want to write cross-platform code that is
not just for mobile, you have to now concern yourself with how ARC
works AND still handle memory management. So you get ARC but none of
the code-side benefits of it.

That's true, for now. But for mobile/linux specific code, you get ARC
with the benefits.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"She was already learning that if you ignore the rules people will,
half the time, quietly rewrite them so that they don't apply to you."
-- Terry Pratchett (Equal Rites)
Eivind Bakkestuen


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  Posted: Feb 12, 2018 3:41 PM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
The zero-based strings thing can easily be turned off and is only
important for plain indexing, for nothing else. No big deal.

The different memory management, i.e. ARC, makes a lot of sense. You
may not like it (for whatever obscure reason), but it does not "break
the codebase".

Give me a break. The two above items are some of the biggest reasons
why large libraries are really really hard to move to mobile.

If you want to put your money where your mouth is, I'll be happy to
provide you with just such a large library, and we'll see how much fun
you will be having working with the "codebase that wasn't broken".

IMO, Embarcadero failed miserably in evaluating where their customer
base would be after adding mobile support. They screwed up their
product to the detriment of existing customers, all for making it look
modern and fresh, and where are we now? On the slopes of Mt Doom? They
should have cast the ARC ring into the fire, instead of proudly wearing
it.

--
Eivind Bakkestuen [NDD]

Rudy Velthuis (...


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  Posted: Feb 13, 2018 4:10 PM   in response to: Eivind Bakkestuen in response to: Eivind Bakkestuen
Eivind Bakkestuen wrote:

The zero-based strings thing can easily be turned off and is only
important for plain indexing, for nothing else. No big deal.

The different memory management, i.e. ARC, makes a lot of sense. You
may not like it (for whatever obscure reason), but it does not
"break the codebase".

Give me a break. The two above items are some of the biggest reasons
why large libraries are really really hard to move to mobile.

Zero based strings? Really? Aw come on.

ARC, yes, perhaps, depending on how low leve the code is.

If you want to put your money where your mouth is, I'll be happy to
provide you with just such a large library, and we'll see how much fun
you will be having working with the "codebase that wasn't broken".

See above. I have no idea how portable your code was.
--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"I'm not a member of any organized political party, I'm a
Democrat!" -- Will Rogers (1879-1935)
Brandon Staggs

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  Posted: Feb 12, 2018 6:01 AM   in response to: Matthew Jones in response to: Matthew Jones
"Matthew Jones" wrote on Mon, 12 Feb 2018 02:51:08 -0800:

you could not just take proven code to mobile. That killed it for me.

Yes. This very much yes. This change, and others like 0-based
strings or removing 8-bit string types, etc, were pointless efforts at
looking like other "simpler" languages that alienated huge amounts of
existing code. ARC is nice and all, but if your code has to compile
on Win32, you don't get any of its advantages because you still have
to manage all of your memory manually.

If you're starting a new project from scratch that only has to compile
for mobile, I suppose this is all fine, but the "promise" of
cross-platform seems to always have too many caveats.

--
Brandon Staggs
StudyLamp Software LLC
http://www.studylamp.com
Rudy Velthuis (...


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  Posted: Feb 12, 2018 5:33 AM   in response to: Joseph Mitzen in response to: Joseph Mitzen
Joseph Mitzen wrote:

Dominique Willems wrote:
Brandon Staggs wrote:

You're reasoning from the perspective of the existing Delphi user,
and are rather resigned to the notion that it's become little more
than a legacy environment for existing applications.

I'm sure there is quite a large niche for (new) developers who want
to venture into native Windows development, in an attractive
contemporary environment.

I still don't see how this can work. New developers who want to
venture into Windows development download Visual Studio Community
Edition for free. They get C#, C++, ASP.NET, Javascript, Typescript,
F#, Visual Basic, Python and R and a world-class IDE

Hmmm... World-class IDE? I hate using it, and I guess I'm not the only
one. It doesn't feel world-class at all.

And then the languages:

* C# was nice once, is terribly overloaded these days. And it is
managed.
* C++: worse than C# and a terrible library
* rest: nice for web apps and small programs.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Invisible Pink Unicorns are beings of awesome mystical power.
We know this because they manage to be invisible and pink at
the same time. Like all religions, the Faith of the Invisible
Pink Unicorns is based upon both logic and faith. We have faith
that they are pink; we logically know that they are invisible
because we can't see them."
-- Steve Eley

Rudy Velthuis (...


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  Posted: Feb 12, 2018 6:47 AM   in response to: Dominique Willems in response to: Dominique Willems
Dominique Willems wrote:

I'm sure there is quite a large niche for (new) developers who want to
venture into native Windows development, in an attractive contemporary
environment. You'd need a commercial company to arrange the
advertising, though.

If you think it is so viable, I wonder why you don't gather a few like
minded spirits around and start this venture yourself?

And why don't these (new) developers jump on Oxygène? RemObjects is
commercial, AFAIK, and they already "have the technology to make it
better than it was before. Better.. stronger... faster".
--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"I'd stop eating chocolate, but I'm no quitter." -- Unknown
Rudy Velthuis (...


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  Posted: Feb 5, 2018 2:48 PM   in response to: Dominique Willems in response to: Dominique Willems
Dominique Willems wrote:

Brandon Staggs wrote:
I don't see how anyone could do this without competing solely on the
basis of price

You don't see how anyone could improve on the existing Delphi
offering?

which is an awful business model to start with,
especially since the current low price is $0 (Lazarus).

Does Lazarus have a modern IDE?

No, not even close.
--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Richard Nixon is a no good, lying bastard. He can lie out of
both sides of his mouth at the same time, and if he ever caught
himself telling the truth, he'd lie just to keep his hand in."
-- Harry S. Truman.
Rudy Velthuis (...


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  Posted: Feb 5, 2018 2:58 PM   in response to: Dominique Willems in response to: Dominique Willems
Dominique Willems wrote:

Brandon Staggs wrote:
I don't see how anyone could do this without competing solely on the
basis of price

You don't see how anyone could improve on the existing Delphi
offering?

which is an awful business model to start with,
especially since the current low price is $0 (Lazarus).

Does Lazarus have a modern IDE? You don't see how a full-time paid
team could improve on it?

Where would you get that full-time paid team? How long would you
estimate to get it to offer what the Delphi IDE offers?

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored
by little statesmen and philosophers and divines."
-- Ralph Waldo Emerson
Rudy Velthuis (...


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  Posted: Feb 12, 2018 6:42 AM   in response to: Dominique Willems in response to: Dominique Willems
Dominique Willems wrote:

Brandon Staggs wrote:
I don't see how anyone could do this without competing solely on the
basis of price

You don't see how anyone could improve on the existing Delphi
offering?

I don't see how anyone could write such a product. The competition
obviously didn't succeed yet. Neither FreePascal/Lazarus nor
Oxygene/<forgot the name of the editor> seem to have driven Delphi out
of the market, and they are not really new products.

One of the big problems with the alternatives is that they are not
fully (backward) compatible either. Achieving that would make things
even a lot harder, though.
--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Sometimes a scream is better than a thesis."
-- Ralph Waldo Emerson
Rudy Velthuis (...


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  Posted: Feb 5, 2018 2:40 PM   in response to: Dominique Willems in response to: Dominique Willems
Dominique Willems wrote:

I'm getting the impression the market is getting ripe for a commercial
OO-Pascal competitor, maybe Windows-only.

Yeah. Let's revive Sybil and Virtual Pascal. <g>

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and
the intelligent are full of doubt." -- Bertrand Russell
Joseph Mitzen

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Re: Upgrade SKU to be discontinued by March 31st?? [Edit]
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  Posted: Feb 9, 2018 5:03 PM   in response to: Dominique Willems in response to: Dominique Willems
Dominique Willems wrote:
I'm getting the impression the market is getting ripe for a commercial
OO-Pascal competitor, maybe Windows-only. It wouldn't be hard to beat
the current offering's prices, and a fresh take on what a modern IDE
should look like would be welcomed.

Include a smooth conversion path, and bingo.

Don't we already have that, and isn't it called Oxygene?
Brandon Staggs

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  Posted: Feb 10, 2018 6:56 AM   in response to: Joseph Mitzen in response to: Joseph Mitzen
"Joseph Mitzen" wrote on Fri, 9 Feb 2018 17:03:18 -0800:

Include a smooth conversion path, and bingo.

Don't we already have that, and isn't it called Oxygene?

LOL, no. Not even close. You really don't know much about what you
are talking about here, do you?

--
Brandon Staggs
StudyLamp Software LLC
http://www.studylamp.com
Brandon Staggs

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  Posted: Feb 10, 2018 7:03 AM   in response to: Joseph Mitzen in response to: Joseph Mitzen
"Joseph Mitzen" wrote on Fri, 9 Feb 2018 17:03:18 -0800:

Oxygene?

Oxygene is cool for what it is: a way to use Pascal with Visual
Studio. A migration path from Delphi it is not, and you end up
trading one non-standardized language for another. I actually worked
on a project with Oxygene for Microsoft's failed Windows Phone
platform. In retrospect, it would have made a lot more sense to just
use C# to begin with. You aren't going to be able to keep enough
Delphi code unchanged for it to make much difference. So if you
really really like Pascal, so much so that you don't want to use the
first-class languages supported in VS, you can pay RemObjects an
annual fee similar to Embarcadero's Pro SKU for the privilege of
writing those begin..end blocks.

Personally, I love Pascal as a language. It is superior to the
alternatives, but Oxygene just didn't make much sense as a product for
me...

--
Brandon Staggs
StudyLamp Software LLC
http://www.studylamp.com
Rudy Velthuis (...


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  Posted: Feb 12, 2018 5:48 AM   in response to: Joseph Mitzen in response to: Joseph Mitzen
Joseph Mitzen wrote:

Dominique Willems wrote:
I'm getting the impression the market is getting ripe for a
commercial OO-Pascal competitor, maybe Windows-only. It wouldn't be
hard to beat the current offering's prices, and a fresh take on
what a modern IDE should look like would be welcomed.

Include a smooth conversion path, and bingo.

Don't we already have that, and isn't it called Oxygene?

If that is such a terrific competitor, I wonder why it hasn't beaten
Delphi/RAD Studio out of the market by now.

But this does demonstrate that it is not so easy to start a commercial
competitor, unless you do not only write a compiler and runtime, but
everything else as well, including all the DB stuff, bindings to other
technologies, etc.etc. and integrate all of these properly. And you
would have to find third parties to support you too. Not such a simple
undertaking, IMO.

These days, Delphi is much more than a compiler, VCL, runtime and IDE.
It may look easy to start a competing product, but it isn't. And if you
really wanted to compete, you would have to be backward compatible with
Delphi too, and with the many third party tools.

The same with FreePascal/Lazarus: it is a great product, can do some
things probably better or faster than Delphi, supports many platforms,
but it is not compatible, doesn't have a great IDE or GUI library,
doesn't have all the technologies Delphi supports and has supported
over the years and doesn't have that much of a third party market.
--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and
the intelligent are full of doubt."
-- Bertrand Russell

Edited by: Rudy Velthuis (TeamB, MVP) on Feb 14, 2018 1:13 AM
John Mitchell

Posts: 64
Registered: 9/23/02
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  Posted: Feb 6, 2018 2:11 PM   in response to: Jan Martin Pett... in response to: Jan Martin Pett...
Sell Delphi for $400 /year.
This includes database, FMX and mobile.
No expiration, but for mobile you'd have no choice but to pony up each year to keep up with Google and Apple.
This will bring in thousands of new users, and bring back thousands of people who gave up due to cost.

Of course I have no evidence to back up this claim. But ten users paying $400 is better than one user paying $2000.

Rudy Velthuis (...


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  Posted: Feb 7, 2018 12:40 PM   in response to: John Mitchell in response to: John Mitchell
John Mitchell wrote:

Sell Delphi for $400 /year.

I'm sure that many would agree, but not necessarily because they think
that is the best strategy for Embarcadero. <g>

To me, that sounds a bit like "I wanna pink pony".

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

Meskimen's Law: There's never time to do it right, but always
time to do it over.
Quentin Correll


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  Posted: Feb 8, 2018 12:18 PM   in response to: John Mitchell in response to: John Mitchell
John,

| Sell Delphi for $400 /year.

And I, for one, would stop using it !!! And I suspect MANY others
would as well !!!

--

Q -- XanaNews 1.20-0cfde51 - 2018-02-08 12:16:36

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John Mitchell

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  Posted: Feb 8, 2018 12:34 PM   in response to: Quentin Correll in response to: Quentin Correll
Quentin Correll wrote:
John,

| Sell Delphi for $400 /year.

And I, for one, would stop using it !!! And I suspect MANY others
would as well !!!
Q -- XanaNews 1.20-0cfde51 - 2018-02-08 12:16:36

There are plenty of people who already stopped using it.
The $400 is all about getting new people to start using it.
Quentin Correll


Posts: 2,412
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  Posted: Feb 9, 2018 4:53 PM   in response to: John Mitchell in response to: John Mitchell
John,

| There are plenty of people who already stopped using it.
| The $400 is all about getting new people to start using it.

It's the "per year" that I'm referring to.

--

Q -- XanaNews 1.20-0cfde51 - 2018-02-09 16:53:08

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Edmund Wong

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  Posted: Feb 11, 2018 5:09 PM   in response to: Quentin Correll in response to: Quentin Correll
Quentin Correll wrote:
John,

| There are plenty of people who already stopped using it.
| The $400 is all about getting new people to start using it.

It's the "per year" that I'm referring to.
But isn't Delphi already an annual subscription-based product?

And once you're off the subscription, it has a very high
barrier to re-entry.

Edmund
Rudy Velthuis (...


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  Posted: Feb 12, 2018 6:36 AM   in response to: Edmund Wong in response to: Edmund Wong
Edmund Wong wrote:

Quentin Correll wrote:
John,

There are plenty of people who already stopped using it.
The $400 is all about getting new people to start using it.

It's the "per year" that I'm referring to.
But isn't Delphi already an annual subscription-based product?

Not yet, but soon.

And there are several ways of "subscription".

Adobe's subscription is more some kind of rental, i.e. you can use the
product for the time period you paid for. It won't work once you
stopped paying.

Delphi's subscription is more like a magazine: if you stop paying, you
don't get new magazines, but you can keep the ones you have. For
Delphi: you won't get any upgrades or updates anymore, but the products
you have will continue to work.

FWIW, I still have some BYTE issues from the nineteen eighties,
including the one about OOP. <g>


And once you're off the subscription, it has a very high
barrier to re-entry.

Edmund


--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Democracy is where you can say what you think even if you don't
think."

Edmund Wong

Posts: 154
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  Posted: Feb 12, 2018 7:12 PM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB, MVP) wrote:
Edmund Wong wrote:

Not yet, but soon.

And there are several ways of "subscription".

Adobe's subscription is more some kind of rental, i.e. you can use the
product for the time period you paid for. It won't work once you
stopped paying.

While I understand fully that I don't own the software I license, it's
just (for lack of a better word) awful to have this type of
subscription.

But of course, it depends on who is using it. For a temp job, it
works. But for a long time usage, it adds up and plus the fact
that you need to be online to do it.


Delphi's subscription is more like a magazine: if you stop paying, you
don't get new magazines, but you can keep the ones you have. For
Delphi: you won't get any upgrades or updates anymore, but the products
you have will continue to work.

This type of subscription is far better (imo, of course). I can still
use XE7. Of course, it makes jumping back on the wagon a lot difficult
(barrier to (re)entry).


FWIW, I still have some BYTE issues from the nineteen eighties,
including the one about OOP. <g>

Oh man, I threw mines away a long time ago. :( Ditto with my
COMPUTE! magazines (I think).

Edmund
Quentin Correll


Posts: 2,412
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Re: Upgrade SKU to be discontinued by March 31st??
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  Posted: Feb 12, 2018 5:16 PM   in response to: Edmund Wong in response to: Edmund Wong
Edmund,

Please see Rudy's comments.

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Brandon Staggs

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Re: Upgrade SKU to be discontinued by March 31st??
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  Posted: Feb 9, 2018 5:36 AM   in response to: Quentin Correll in response to: Quentin Correll
"Quentin Correll" wrote on Thu, 8 Feb 2018 12:18:15 -0800:

| Sell Delphi for $400 /year.

And I, for one, would stop using it !!! And I suspect MANY others
would as well !!!

Just curious, what are you paying now?

--
Brandon Staggs
StudyLamp Software LLC
http://www.studylamp.com
Quentin Correll


Posts: 2,412
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Re: Upgrade SKU to be discontinued by March 31st??
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  Posted: Feb 9, 2018 4:57 PM   in response to: Brandon Staggs in response to: Brandon Staggs
Brandon,

| | And I, for one, would stop using it !!! And I suspect MANY others
| | would as well !!!

| Just curious, what are you paying now?

Nothing.

IF I am recalling correctly I purchased a perpetual license many
years ago.

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Joseph Mitzen

Posts: 392
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Re: Upgrade SKU to be discontinued by March 31st??
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  Posted: Feb 9, 2018 5:00 PM   in response to: Quentin Correll in response to: Quentin Correll
Quentin Correll wrote:

IF I am recalling correctly I purchased a perpetual license many
years ago.

Wait, WHAT?!? That was a thing?!?
Brandon Staggs

Posts: 683
Registered: 3/3/01
Re: Upgrade SKU to be discontinued by March 31st??
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  Posted: Feb 10, 2018 6:54 AM   in response to: Joseph Mitzen in response to: Joseph Mitzen
"Joseph Mitzen" wrote on Fri, 9 Feb 2018 17:00:26 -0800:

Quentin Correll wrote:

IF I am recalling correctly I purchased a perpetual license many
years ago.

Wait, WHAT?!? That was a thing?!?

It still is. Anyone who suggest otherwise is just muddying the
waters. Licenses are perpetual regardless of subscription status.

--
Brandon Staggs
StudyLamp Software LLC
http://www.studylamp.com
Rudy Velthuis (...


Posts: 7,731
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Re: Upgrade SKU to be discontinued by March 31st??
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  Posted: Feb 12, 2018 5:54 AM   in response to: Joseph Mitzen in response to: Joseph Mitzen
Joseph Mitzen wrote:

Quentin Correll wrote:

IF I am recalling correctly I purchased a perpetual license many
years ago.

Wait, WHAT?!? That was a thing?!?

All licenses are perpetual. Even the ones acquired under subscription.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"I cannot imagine a God who rewards and punishes the objects of
his creation, whose purposes are modeled after our own; a God,
in short, who is but a reflection of human frailty. Neither can
I believe that the individual survives the death of his body,
although feeble souls harbor such thoughts through fear or
ridiculous egotisms..."
-- Albert Einstein, obituary
Quentin Correll


Posts: 2,412
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Re: Upgrade SKU to be discontinued by March 31st??
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  Posted: Feb 9, 2018 5:03 PM   in response to: Quentin Correll in response to: Quentin Correll
Brandon,

I still use XE8.

Which is why I probably shouldn't even be participating in this thread.
<G>

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Brandon Staggs

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Re: Upgrade SKU to be discontinued by March 31st??
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  Posted: Feb 10, 2018 6:53 AM   in response to: Quentin Correll in response to: Quentin Correll
"Quentin Correll" wrote on Fri, 9 Feb 2018 16:57:11 -0800:

Brandon,

|| And I, for one, would stop using it !!! And I suspect MANY others
|| would as well !!!

| Just curious, what are you paying now?

Nothing.

And as I recall, you are still on XE. So any change in this regard
doesn't actually lose something Idera/Emba had before... you're status
as a paying customer is still the same as it was before (and would
be).

IF I am recalling correctly I purchased a perpetual license many
years ago.

Licenses are still perpetual. Somebody not from Idera/Emba is
floating the idea that they offer a "rental" -- this has nothing to do
with what Idera has actually said they are doing -- they have been
clear that licenses are still perpetual regardless of subscription
status.

--
Brandon Staggs
StudyLamp Software LLC
http://www.studylamp.com
Quentin Correll


Posts: 2,412
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Re: Upgrade SKU to be discontinued by March 31st??
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  Posted: Feb 10, 2018 11:30 AM   in response to: Brandon Staggs in response to: Brandon Staggs
Brandon,

| And as I recall, you are still on XE.

You recall correctly!

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Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: Upgrade SKU to be discontinued by March 31st??
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  Posted: Feb 12, 2018 6:49 AM   in response to: Quentin Correll in response to: Quentin Correll
Quentin Correll wrote:

Brandon,

And as I recall, you are still on XE.

You recall correctly!

Huh? I am confused: I think I saw you say you're on XE8.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"For centuries, theologians have been explaining the unknowable
in terms of the-not-worth-knowing."
-- Henry Louis Mencken (1880-1956)
Quentin Correll


Posts: 2,412
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Re: Upgrade SKU to be discontinued by March 31st??
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  Posted: Feb 12, 2018 5:18 PM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy,

| | > And as I recall, you are still on XE.
| |
| | You recall correctly!
|
| Huh? I am confused: I think I saw you say you're on XE8.

You are correct. I was thinking in a generic mode when I replied.

Good catch! <g>

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Joseph Mitzen

Posts: 392
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Re: Upgrade SKU to be discontinued by March 31st??
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  Posted: Feb 9, 2018 5:01 PM   in response to: Quentin Correll in response to: Quentin Correll
Quentin Correll wrote:
John,

| Sell Delphi for $400 /year.

And I, for one, would stop using it !!! And I suspect MANY others
would as well !!!

I got news for you - that's what the Delphi Pro subscription renewal costs now.
Quentin Correll


Posts: 2,412
Registered: 12/1/99
Re: Upgrade SKU to be discontinued by March 31st??
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  Posted: Feb 10, 2018 11:32 AM   in response to: Joseph Mitzen in response to: Joseph Mitzen
Joseph,

| | And I, for one, would stop using it !!! And I suspect MANY others
| | would as well !!!
 

| I got news for you - that's what the Delphi Pro subscription renewal
| costs now.
 


Wow! <shudder>

Thanks for the info!

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Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: Upgrade SKU to be discontinued by March 31st??
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  Posted: Feb 12, 2018 5:57 AM   in response to: Joseph Mitzen in response to: Joseph Mitzen
Joseph Mitzen wrote:

Quentin Correll wrote:
John,

Sell Delphi for $400 /year.

And I, for one, would stop using it !!! And I suspect MANY others
would as well !!!

I got news for you - that's what the Delphi Pro subscription renewal
costs now.

Obviously you really don't know what you are talking about.
Subscription may cost that, but every license you acquire is perpetual,
so once you stop paying, you won't get upgrades and updates anymore,
but your products will still be fully functional and will not expire.

This is not like Photoshop or Illustrator.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Dieu me pardonnera. C'est son métier."
Translation: God forgive me. It's his job.
-- Heinrich Heine, dying words.
John David

Posts: 86
Registered: 9/5/16
Re: Upgrade SKU to be discontinued by March 31st??
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  Posted: Feb 10, 2018 12:40 PM   in response to: Quentin Correll in response to: Quentin Correll
On 08/02/2018 20:18, Quentin Correll wrote:
John,

| Sell Delphi for $400 /year.

And I, for one, would stop using it !!! And I suspect MANY others
would as well !!!

You may be right here but EMB/IDERA can revive interest in Delphi if
they re-develop Delphi from top to bottom and make sure it has all the
functionalities out of the box like C#. This may mean that they might
need to package 3rd party units/VCLs to make this possible.

When I say functionalities I mean procedures and functions in Delphi
language. Delphi has to be competitive especially when the opposite
"player" is the father of Turbo pascal and first 2 versions of Delphi.
His name is: Anders Hejlsberg who also invented TypeScript for Microsoft.
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: Upgrade SKU to be discontinued by March 31st??
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  Posted: Feb 12, 2018 6:09 AM   in response to: John David in response to: John David
John David wrote:

You may be right here but EMB/IDERA can revive interest in Delphi if
they re-develop Delphi from top to bottom and make sure it has all
the functionalities out of the box like C#.

<shaking head>

No, that would be their death.

1. You don't compete by being exactly like the competition.
2. Complete redevelopment means long delays, bugs, bugs, bugs and
incompatibilities. They can't afford that.
3. Third parties would have to re-start too. That would cause
development pauses too, and they might decide that it is not worth it.
4. After VCL and FMX, people would have to learn something new again.
5. Never change a winning team. Some people are claiming that Delphi is
dying, but there have been such claims since the early days. There is
actually no evidence it is. On the contrary.

Borland once did something like that (more or less start over) when
they developed Delphi. The long pause between Borland Pascal 7 and
Delphi (1) nearly killed them. Redeveloping a large product is hardly
ever a good idea.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"[War] might be avoidable were more emphasis placed on the
training to social interest, less on the attainment of
egotistical grandeur." -- Lydia Sicher

Edmund Wong

Posts: 154
Registered: 10/26/02
Re: Upgrade SKU to be discontinued by March 31st??
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  Posted: Feb 14, 2018 8:53 PM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB, MVP) wrote:
John David wrote:

You may be right here but EMB/IDERA can revive interest in Delphi if
they re-develop Delphi from top to bottom and make sure it has all
the functionalities out of the box like C#.

<shaking head>

No, that would be their death.

1. You don't compete by being exactly like the competition.
2. Complete redevelopment means long delays, bugs, bugs, bugs and
incompatibilities. They can't afford that.
3. Third parties would have to re-start too. That would cause
development pauses too, and they might decide that it is not worth it.
4. After VCL and FMX, people would have to learn something new again.
5. Never change a winning team. Some people are claiming that Delphi is
dying, but there have been such claims since the early days. There is
actually no evidence it is. On the contrary.

Hell yeah... I agree 100%. Ground up is not the right way of going
forward unless they have a separate team to do this.

Edmund
Rik van Kekem

Posts: 4
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Re: Upgrade SKU to be discontinued by March 31st??
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  Posted: Feb 7, 2018 11:53 AM   in response to: Jan Martin Pett... in response to: Jan Martin Pett...
I use Delphi Professional for VCL development only. I was happy to upgrade once every 5 years or so. I jumped from XE to Berlin for that reason alone (although I was quite happy with XE). But now the upgrade option disappears I will need to rethink that and only upgrade when absolutely necessary (and not before 8-10 years). Maybe in that time I'm ready to convert to the opensource alternative of Delphi. Not really a smart move of Embarcadero but seeing the price increases in the last two decades I think they just don't care about single-user small developers.
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: Upgrade SKU to be discontinued by March 31st??
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  Posted: Feb 7, 2018 12:40 PM   in response to: Rik van Kekem in response to: Rik van Kekem
Rik van Kekem wrote:

I use Delphi Professional for VCL development only. I was happy to
upgrade once every 5 years or so. I jumped from XE to Berlin for that
reason alone (although I was quite happy with XE).

I wonder. Are you a professional programmer? Is Delphi your main tool?
Which part of your income/revenue is spent on Delphi, per year?

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Fine, Java MIGHT be a good example of what a programming
language should be like. But Java applications are good examples
of what applications SHOULDN’T be like.”
-- pixadel
Rik van Kekem

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Re: Upgrade SKU to be discontinued by March 31st??
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  Posted: Feb 7, 2018 1:10 PM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB, MVP) wrote:
Rik van Kekem wrote:

I use Delphi Professional for VCL development only. I was happy to
upgrade once every 5 years or so. I jumped from XE to Berlin for that
reason alone (although I was quite happy with XE).

I wonder. Are you a professional programmer? Is Delphi your main tool?
Which part of your income/revenue is spent on Delphi, per year?

Yes, I'm a professional programmer (from 1988 on in Borland Pascal). And my major income comes from a program developed with Delphi. But as it is now, it absolutely doesn't matter if it was compiled with Delphi XE or 10.1 Berlin. I think I can even downgrade to Delphi 7 without any major issues. So that's saying something about what I need from Delphi. As I said, the only reason I upgraded to Berlin was that I could take advantage of a discount (and exemption) on the upgrade price. But I never would have bought a complete new version. I'm happy to give Embarcadero a few hundred euros every 4/5 years or so (even though I don't really need a new version) but with the coming price-changes that's just too much for something I don't actually need. (Please note, I'm not sad about the change, I'm just stating my situation)

In the past you could upgrade from any version (in that time I bought all the versions, they were cheap). Later on that became limited to a number of versions (I bought some versions, every few years or so) and now there will be no upgrade option at all. Well, I guess that's a choice. It might force some users to subscription and it might drive others away (or force them to upgrade only when needed and not within 4 version or so). The only one who can calculate what is more profitable is Embarcadero themselves (I hope).
Radu Mircea Cap...

Posts: 27
Registered: 1/9/10
Re: Upgrade SKU to be discontinued by March 31st??
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  Posted: Feb 11, 2018 11:37 AM   in response to: Rik van Kekem in response to: Rik van Kekem
I think that the Delphi Proffessional Upgrade Subscription is affordable in each country.
If you have a commercial product in Delphi you can afford it.
Now perhaps you don't need a new version but perhaps you will need it in the future.
And somehow we must participate to the further Delphi Development.

Rik van Kekem wrote:
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB, MVP) wrote:
Rik van Kekem wrote:

I use Delphi Professional for VCL development only. I was happy to
upgrade once every 5 years or so. I jumped from XE to Berlin for that
reason alone (although I was quite happy with XE).

I wonder. Are you a professional programmer? Is Delphi your main tool?
Which part of your income/revenue is spent on Delphi, per year?

Yes, I'm a professional programmer (from 1988 on in Borland Pascal). And my major income comes from a program developed with Delphi. But as it is now, it absolutely doesn't matter if it was compiled with Delphi XE or 10.1 Berlin. I think I can even downgrade to Delphi 7 without any major issues. So that's saying something about what I need from Delphi. As I said, the only reason I upgraded to Berlin was that I could take advantage of a discount (and exemption) on the upgrade price. But I never would have bought a complete new version. I'm happy to give Embarcadero a few hundred euros every 4/5 years or so (even though I don't really need a new version) but with the coming price-changes that's just too much for something I don't actually need. (Please note, I'm not sad about the change, I'm just stating my situation)

In the past you could upgrade from any version (in that time I bought all the versions, they were cheap). Later on that became limited to a number of versions (I bought some versions, every few years or so) and now there will be no upgrade option at all. Well, I guess that's a choice. It might force some users to subscription and it might drive others away (or force them to upgrade only when needed and not within 4 version or so). The only one who can calculate what is more profitable is Embarcadero themselves (I hope).
Rik van Kekem

Posts: 4
Registered: 9/1/01
Re: Upgrade SKU to be discontinued by March 31st??
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  Posted: Feb 11, 2018 1:20 PM   in response to: Radu Mircea Cap... in response to: Radu Mircea Cap...
Radu Mircea Capota wrote:
I think that the Delphi Proffessional Upgrade Subscription is affordable in each country.
If you have a commercial product in Delphi you can afford it.
Now perhaps you don't need a new version but perhaps you will need it in the future.
And somehow we must participate to the further Delphi Development.

So, we should just pay Embarcadero just to keep them in business? Not because we have use or need for a new version? Where does that end. Embarcadero wil get in trouble in the long run with this "vision". Prices will go up and up because Delphi will be used less and less. Are you willing to sit it out until you can't afford it anymore. If you look at the price-development (and earning model) over the last two decades you'll know what I mean. I was willing to "support" them every few years by buying an upgrade. An upgrade I don't even necessarily need. When there is no upgrade anymore, I will wait until I really need a new version. That's just how it is.

Participating in the further development of Delphi would also mean THEY need to further develop Delphi. And I don't see that development (in VCL). Just cutbacks. Yes, a lot is being done in FMX (which I don't have any use for) so maybe Delphi isn't for me anymore. Maybe I should look at alternatives (which there are).
Brandon Staggs

Posts: 683
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Re: Upgrade SKU to be discontinued by March 31st??
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  Posted: Feb 12, 2018 5:53 AM   in response to: Rik van Kekem in response to: Rik van Kekem
"Rik van Kekem" wrote on Sun, 11 Feb 2018 13:20:52 -0800:

So, we should just pay Embarcadero just to keep them in business?

I wouldn't do that, but it is not unreasonable to want to help sustain
the product you are using -- if you are not 100% in legacy mode.
There is nothing wrong with that choice.

Not because we have use or need for a new version?

The irony is that if you have no need for new versions, you wouldn't
CARE what or how they are charging for them.

--
Brandon Staggs
StudyLamp Software LLC
http://www.studylamp.com
Rik van Kekem

Posts: 4
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Re: Upgrade SKU to be discontinued by March 31st??
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  Posted: Feb 12, 2018 5:57 AM   in response to: Brandon Staggs in response to: Brandon Staggs
Brandon Staggs wrote:
Not because we have use or need for a new version?

The irony is that if you have no need for new versions, you wouldn't
CARE what or how they are charging for them.

And as I said, I don't care. But I was willing to support Embarcadero every few years by buying a (not needed) upgrade version. And that will stop.

But maybe I'm the only one and it'll not hurt them that much :)
Mark Marks

Posts: 269
Registered: 9/11/00
Re: Upgrade SKU to be discontinued by March 31st??
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  Posted: Feb 12, 2018 8:14 AM   in response to: Rik van Kekem in response to: Rik van Kekem
Rik van Kekem wrote:

But maybe I'm the only one and it'll not hurt them that much :)

You are not and I have no interest to "hurt" them. Regardless of how
much money you have or earn, value for the money continues to be
important.
Matthew Jones

Posts: 337
Registered: 1/25/98
Re: Upgrade SKU to be discontinued by March 31st??
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  Posted: Feb 13, 2018 10:30 AM   in response to: Mark Marks in response to: Mark Marks
Mark Marks wrote:

value for the money continues to be
important.

In particular, the value you get by spending it one way versus another way. Plenty of things I can spend a few hundred [currency] on, so if I am asked to spend it on a subscription for [product], I want to know that I'm getting more value than if I spent it on [other product].

The thing is, what happens is that you come to a slow down in the use of a product, and then you start off thinking you will renew again just in case. And perhaps another year. And at some point you decide that you've paid enough and got nothing back of real value. And then you stop. Getting back in needs to be cheap and easy if anyone is ever going to re-subscribe.

I've done this with a few component libraries for Delphi - and had stopped Delphi maintenance at one point, but started again for some work that came in. But again, there will come a time when it is not adding value over other options. So far I'm not impressed with the changes.
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: Upgrade SKU to be discontinued by March 31st??
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  Posted: Feb 12, 2018 6:10 AM   in response to: Rik van Kekem in response to: Rik van Kekem
Rik van Kekem wrote:

Radu Mircea Capota wrote:
I think that the Delphi Proffessional Upgrade Subscription is
affordable in each country. If you have a commercial product in
Delphi you can afford it. Now perhaps you don't need a new version
but perhaps you will need it in the future. And somehow we must
participate to the further Delphi Development.

So, we should just pay Embarcadero just to keep them in business?

No, you don't have to.

But consider the alternatives.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"The de facto role of the US armed forces will be to keep the
world safe for our economy and open to our cultural assault."
-- Major Ralph Peters, US Military
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: Upgrade SKU to be discontinued by March 31st??
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  Posted: Feb 13, 2018 4:23 PM   in response to: Rik van Kekem in response to: Rik van Kekem
Rik van Kekem wrote:

Radu Mircea Capota wrote:
I think that the Delphi Proffessional Upgrade Subscription is
affordable in each country. If you have a commercial product in
Delphi you can afford it. Now perhaps you don't need a new version
but perhaps you will need it in the future. And somehow we must
participate to the further Delphi Development.

So, we should just pay Embarcadero just to keep them in business?

No, you take a subscription to stay up-to-date. If you think that is
not necessary, then do the calculations.

* If you think you may need an update/upgrade in the next 4 years, then
stay on subscription (which costs approx. 23% of a new license).
* If you think you won't need it, then don't and pay the full price
once you need one.

It is your choice and your calculation.

But for Embarcadero, subscriptions make things easier. They can release
new features without having to wait for the next majore release and
only do point updates to fix bugs, as they had to do in the past. If a
feature can't make it to the next update, it will be in the one
following it. So this gives both Embarcadero and their customers more
flexibility. And their customers remain up-to-date. And having a new
release doesn't mean you must use it. But you can.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Computers make it easier to do a lot of things, but most of the
things they make it easier to do don't need to be done."
-- Andy Rooney.
Clement Doss

Posts: 133
Registered: 9/19/00
Re: Upgrade SKU to be discontinued by March 31st??
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  Posted: Feb 12, 2018 3:39 PM   in response to: Radu Mircea Cap... in response to: Radu Mircea Cap...
Hi,

I think that the Delphi Proffessional Upgrade Subscription is affordable in each country.

You have no idea how wrong this statement is.

If you have a commercial product in Delphi you can afford it.

There's a french say: "Avec des 'si' on mettrait Paris en bouteille" ( With 'if's you could put Paris in a bottle ).
7 companies (my customers with enterprise licenses) are moving away from Delphi because they can't afford "new user license". They have commercial applications and they can't afford it!

Now perhaps you don't need a new version but perhaps you will need it in the future.

"Perhaps" is the same as "if". I have no doubt that maintaining the subscription is the way to go. In my case it's the ONLY way to go. I can't afford a new user license (Enterprise or professional) and that scares the $*&#$ out of me.

And somehow we must participate to the further Delphi Development.

That's the issue. EMB is charging (a lot) for a product that you can't justify paying for. Some features are the same since Delphi 3, so why should we pay for them over and over?
Some features have not been fixed for some time, what am I paying for? Some features are working but not quite as they should, and again what am I paying for?
Are we paying only for extra features that "perhaps we might need in the future"? I payed for Datasnap that I will never use in the future. Can't I take back that money? Nope! But I still have to pay for it.

EMB need more users. Not only commercial companies, but students, hobbyist, casual users and kids (They completely forgot "funny programming"?).
They are imposing such subscription price to a much needed new audience that can't afford it. They need a new Delphi product line to boost the interest.

Emb should be working harder to make Delphi known in the market and show there are still reasons to buy "a" license.

Clément

Joseph Mitzen

Posts: 392
Registered: 6/9/02
Re: Upgrade SKU to be discontinued by March 31st??
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  Posted: Feb 9, 2018 4:58 PM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB, MVP) wrote:
Rik van Kekem wrote:

I wonder. Are you a professional programmer? Is Delphi your main tool?
Which part of your income/revenue is spent on Delphi, per year?

By this logic, it's ok for an accountant to pay $500 for a pencil. "You earn $50,000 a year? This wooden pencil is just one percent of your income!" Somehow I bet I couldn't start a pencil company based on that revenue model though.

When I briefly worked at the corporate HQ of Bed, Bath and Beyond (major U.S./Canadian retail chain, had 680 stores at that time) only those working in the legal team were allowed to have Post-It notes. Everyone else had to make their own with scrap paper and scissors. Teams would sometimes go into stores and remove single light bulbs from them, telling them they had too many. They even switched to no-name pens until a very high-up pulled ten out of a box and none of them worked; he got them to go back to Bic a few weeks later.

I once advised a potential start-up (that fortunately never started up) whose business plan involved selling home entertainment systems to rich people. The catch was there would be tablets in every room to control them. When I objected to the logistics, convenience - why wouldn't they just want to use their smart phone? - and particularly the cost, I was given a speech about how one of the potential partners had installed $50,000 home entertainment systems in some people's homes. I countered this with the argument that said entertainment system was no doubt worth $50,000. I explained that rich people don't get rich by spending more money on things than they need to, and if they do they don't stay rich for long. Fortunately they finally saw the light on this point.
Brandon Staggs

Posts: 683
Registered: 3/3/01
Re: Upgrade SKU to be discontinued by March 31st??
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  Posted: Feb 10, 2018 6:54 AM   in response to: Joseph Mitzen in response to: Joseph Mitzen
"Joseph Mitzen" wrote on Fri, 9 Feb 2018 16:58:34 -0800:

By this logic, it's ok for an accountant to pay $500 for a pencil.

No it isn't. A pencil is a commodity. Delphi is not.

--
Brandon Staggs
StudyLamp Software LLC
http://www.studylamp.com
Edmund Wong

Posts: 154
Registered: 10/26/02
Re: Upgrade SKU to be discontinued by March 31st??
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  Posted: Feb 11, 2018 5:13 PM   in response to: Brandon Staggs in response to: Brandon Staggs
Brandon Staggs wrote:
"Joseph Mitzen" wrote on Fri, 9 Feb 2018 16:58:34 -0800:

By this logic, it's ok for an accountant to pay $500 for a pencil.

No it isn't. A pencil is a commodity. Delphi is not.

What about a hammer? $500 for a hammer?

Edmund
Brandon Staggs

Posts: 683
Registered: 3/3/01
Re: Upgrade SKU to be discontinued by March 31st??
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  Posted: Feb 12, 2018 5:56 AM   in response to: Edmund Wong in response to: Edmund Wong
"Edmund Wong" wrote on Sun, 11 Feb 2018 17:13:19 -0800:

Brandon Staggs wrote:
"Joseph Mitzen" wrote on Fri, 9 Feb 2018 16:58:34 -0800:

By this logic, it's ok for an accountant to pay $500 for a pencil.

No it isn't. A pencil is a commodity. Delphi is not.

What about a hammer? $500 for a hammer?

How is that any different?

Do you not understand the point?

If there were 10 companies selling their own Delphi, we would be
choosing which one to buy based mostly on price and other slight
differences, like we buy hammers and pencils. If you think Delphi and
IDEs are like a pencil or a hammer, then why bother at all with this
discussion -- go download one of the free IDEs and be happy.

--
Brandon Staggs
StudyLamp Software LLC
http://www.studylamp.com
Edmund Wong

Posts: 154
Registered: 10/26/02
Re: Upgrade SKU to be discontinued by March 31st??
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  Posted: Feb 12, 2018 7:43 PM   in response to: Brandon Staggs in response to: Brandon Staggs
Brandon Staggs wrote:
"Edmund Wong" wrote on Sun, 11 Feb 2018 17:13:19 -0800:

Brandon Staggs wrote:
"Joseph Mitzen" wrote on Fri, 9 Feb 2018 16:58:34 -0800:

By this logic, it's ok for an accountant to pay $500 for a pencil.

No it isn't. A pencil is a commodity. Delphi is not.

What about a hammer? $500 for a hammer?

How is that any different?

A pencil is a commodity but also a tool. Ditto with a hammer.


Do you not understand the point?

If there were 10 companies selling their own Delphi, we would be
choosing which one to buy based mostly on price and other slight
differences, like we buy hammers and pencils. If you think Delphi and
IDEs are like a pencil or a hammer, then why bother at all with this
discussion -- go download one of the free IDEs and be happy.

I think of Delphi like I think of a pencil, a hammer, a blowtorch
or whatever. It is a tool to help me do something constructive;
however, the price is also part of the equation as is the ROI.

In the past, I've invested in Delphi up until XE7; but the
following factors have made it quite untenable to continue
investing it in. YMMV.

1) The projects that require Delphi has decreased quite dramatically.
2) The price has gone up and the company isn't willing to put $$
in it.

And while I'm at it, the gripe of needing to go through a middleman
to buy something that those in the States/Australia/Canada can do
online is just irritating and a hassle. Embarcadero has an online
store. When I go to it, I'm brought to the Asia Pacific page
where I need to contact some company. If I log on to it via
a AWS system, I have a different experience. I've asked
why for a long time and I'm still waiting for a rational
explanation as to why US/Canada and parts of the world
can buy online and the rest can't. Legal issues? shrug

I do wish Idera/Embarcadero well and if I ever land myself
with more income, I might reconsider.

Edmund
Rudy Velthuis (...


Posts: 7,731
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: Upgrade SKU to be discontinued by March 31st??
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  Posted: Feb 12, 2018 6:30 AM   in response to: Edmund Wong in response to: Edmund Wong
Edmund Wong wrote:

Brandon Staggs wrote:
"Joseph Mitzen" wrote on Fri, 9 Feb 2018 16:58:34 -0800:

By this logic, it's ok for an accountant to pay $500 for a pencil.

No it isn't. A pencil is a commodity. Delphi is not.

What about a hammer? $500 for a hammer?

If that hammer is so much better than other hammers that it makes me
more productive and makes me earn considerably more, then yes, why not?

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

Wood's Axiom: As soon as a still-to-be-finished computer task
becomes a life-or-death situation, the power fails.
Rudy Velthuis (...


Posts: 7,731
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: Upgrade SKU to be discontinued by March 31st??
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  Posted: Feb 12, 2018 6:27 AM   in response to: Joseph Mitzen in response to: Joseph Mitzen
Joseph Mitzen wrote:

Rudy Velthuis (TeamB, MVP) wrote:
Rik van Kekem wrote:

I wonder. Are you a professional programmer? Is Delphi your main
tool? Which part of your income/revenue is spent on Delphi, per
year?

By this logic, it's ok for an accountant to pay $500 for a pencil.

No, pencils are expendable. I would not pay much more than a few cents
or dollars for a pencil. But Delphi does a little more than what a
pencil offers. Your logic fails "bigly".

But I pay 1400 Euro per year for upgrades and maintenance of the
software I use in my clinic. It lets me concentrate on treatment and
makes handling all the "paperwork", as well as materials,
sterilization, etc. a lot easier and legally sound. And I pay **much**
more for the hardware i must replace or repair regularly.

If it weren't worth it for me, I wouldn't pay it, or get another system.

If I were a professional developer, then $500 for my main tool would
sound pretty cheap, especially compared to the costs I have now. Heck,
many programmers pay more for their pimped computers, although for
programming, they don't have to be that high end at all (awaiting flak).

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good
men to do nothing."
-- Edmund Burke (1729-1797)

Roy Lambert

Posts: 40
Registered: 10/21/99
Re: Upgrade SKU to be discontinued by March 31st??
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  Posted: Feb 12, 2018 7:49 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy

although for
programming, they don't have to be that high end at all (awaiting flak).

I have often thought programmers need a dual mode PC - edit / compile like lightening, run like a dog with three legs - just the sort of speed the eventual users have.

Roy
Rudy Velthuis (...


Posts: 7,731
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: Upgrade SKU to be discontinued by March 31st??
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  Posted: Feb 13, 2018 4:26 PM   in response to: Roy Lambert in response to: Roy Lambert
Roy Lambert wrote:

Rudy

although for
programming, they don't have to be that high end at all (awaiting
flak).

I have often thought programmers need a dual mode PC - edit / compile
like lightening, run like a dog with three legs - just the sort of
speed the eventual users have.

If you don't program in C++ but in Delphi, then compilation speed is
quite acceptable. I'm currently working on a low level laptop (Mac is
in repair), and it only keeps me more on my toes WRT performance. <g>
--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"When one is postulating correlations or causations extant in
reality, one should always remember that the human brain is
mainly a pattern recognition engine. And it is such a
persistent pattern recognition engine that it often perceives
patterns where none exist." -- Jeff Walther
Chad Hower

Posts: 613
Registered: 3/2/07
Re: Upgrade SKU to be discontinued by March 31st??
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  Posted: Feb 25, 2018 6:42 AM   in response to: Roy Lambert in response to: Roy Lambert
On 2/12/2018 11:49 AM, Roy Lambert wrote:
I have often thought programmers need a dual mode PC - edit / compile like lightening, run like a dog with three legs - just the sort of speed the eventual users have.

Just launch Chrome and open a few tabs. It will turn your high end dev
PC into a stress testing clunker.
Roy Lambert

Posts: 40
Registered: 10/21/99
Re: Upgrade SKU to be discontinued by March 31st??
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  Posted: Feb 25, 2018 7:31 AM   in response to: Chad Hower in response to: Chad Hower
Chad

Actually I'm looking for a very lightweight browser for my Asus 11" notebook - 32 bit.

My weapon of choice until now has been Maxthon but like all of the ones I can find its become "feature rich" - I think that's how you spell SLOW these days.

Roy Lambert

Dave Nottage

Posts: 1,850
Registered: 1/7/00
Re: Upgrade SKU to be discontinued by March 31st??
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  Posted: Feb 25, 2018 12:37 PM   in response to: Chad Hower in response to: Chad Hower
Chad Hower wrote:

Just launch Chrome and open a few tabs. It will turn your high end dev
PC into a stress testing clunker.

I don't have that experience with Chrome on Windows.

On my Mac, all I have to do to bring it to its knees is open Firefox (most recent version). Chrome is the exact
opposite.

--
Dave Nottage [MVP, TeamB]
Find hints, tips and tricks at Delphi Worlds blog: http://www.delphiworlds.com
Jan Martin Pett...

Posts: 88
Registered: 12/8/02
Re: Upgrade SKU to be discontinued by March 31st??
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  Posted: Feb 7, 2018 2:12 PM   in response to: Jan Martin Pett... in response to: Jan Martin Pett...
If they replaced the upgrade SKU with an option to REstart a previous subscription
(beginning at the new purchase date) it would solve my objections to it.

The pricing could be based on something like a decreasing rebate on said "new user"
price and after 3-5 years it would be full "new user" price.

With that timespan it would still be more expensive to drop out of subscription
and then restarting it than keeping the subscription throughout, but at the same time
it won't be that big of a hurdle to restart the subscription during the first years after
termination.

Basically, purchase a few days late and you'll pay almost the same as the regular
subscription price, purchase after 3-5 years, you'll have to pay the "new user" price.

(I'm on Pro, standard subscription)
Radu Mircea Cap...

Posts: 27
Registered: 1/9/10
Re: Upgrade SKU to be discontinued by March 31st??
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  Posted: Feb 8, 2018 1:04 PM   in response to: Jan Martin Pett... in response to: Jan Martin Pett...
I think that 31 March 2018 is a day to early for this ultimatum especially for those who are on Enterprise and Architect Licenses and they didn't calculate this costs for the first quarter of the year.


Jan Martin Pettersen wrote:
https://community.embarcadero.com/article/articles-support/16598-upgrade-sku-to-be-discontinued-in-q4

This means..what? Everybody buys at "New User" price every time a new version is released?
It sounds like that to me.. I mean, if you can't upgrade anymore..

Edited by: Jan Martin Pettersen on Jan 28, 2018 12:30 AM

Edited by: Radu Mircea Capota on Feb 13, 2018 6:07 AM
Rudy Velthuis (...


Posts: 7,731
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Re: Upgrade SKU to be discontinued by March 31st?? [Edit]
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  Posted: Feb 13, 2018 4:27 PM   in response to: Radu Mircea Cap... in response to: Radu Mircea Cap...
Radu Mircea Capota wrote:

I think that 31 March 2018 is a day to early for this ultimatum
especially for those who are on Enterprise and Architect Licenses and
they didn't calculate this costs for the first quarter of the year.

Huh? Second quarter starts AFTER that day. So what is the problem?
--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"USA Today has come out with a new survey: Apparently three out
of four people make up 75 percent of the population."
-- David Letterman.
Jeff Overcash (...

Posts: 1,529
Registered: 9/23/99
Re: Upgrade SKU to be discontinued by March 31st?? [Edit]
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  Posted: Feb 13, 2018 6:02 PM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
On 2/13/2018 7:27 PM, Rudy Velthuis (TeamB, MVP) wrote:
Radu Mircea Capota wrote:

I think that 31 March 2018 is a day to early for this ultimatum
especially for those who are on Enterprise and Architect Licenses and
they didn't calculate this costs for the first quarter of the year.

Huh? Second quarter starts AFTER that day. So what is the problem?

The day after is April fools day.

--
Jeff Overcash (TeamB)
(Please do not email me directly unless asked. Thank You)
Learning is finding out what you already know. Doing is demonstrating that you
know it. Teaching is reminding others that they know it as well as you. We are
all leaners, doers, teachers. (R Bach)
Rudy Velthuis (...


Posts: 7,731
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: Upgrade SKU to be discontinued by March 31st?? [Edit]
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  Posted: Feb 17, 2018 10:08 AM   in response to: Jeff Overcash (... in response to: Jeff Overcash (...
Jeff Overcash (TeamB) wrote:

On 2/13/2018 7:27 PM, Rudy Velthuis (TeamB, MVP) wrote:
Radu Mircea Capota wrote:

I think that 31 March 2018 is a day to early for this ultimatum
especially for those who are on Enterprise and Architect Licenses
and >> they didn't calculate this costs for the first quarter of the
year.

Huh? Second quarter starts AFTER that day. So what is the problem?

The day after is April fools day.

<facepalm> Ah, yes, I forgot.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"There's no trick to being a humorist when you have the whole
government working for you." -- Will Rogers (1879-1935)
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