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Thread: Tokyo Android Compatibility Patch



Permlink Replies: 54 - Last Post: Jun 27, 2017 11:18 PM Last Post By: Markus Humm
Dave Nottage

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Tokyo Android Compatibility Patch
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  Posted: Jun 23, 2017 3:48 AM
The long awaited Android fixes have been released:

https://cc.embarcadero.com/item/30781

--
Dave Nottage [MVP, TeamB]
Find hints, tips and tricks at Delphi Worlds blog: http://www.delphiworlds.com
Dave Nottage

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Re: Tokyo Android Compatibility Patch
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  Posted: Jun 23, 2017 4:08 AM   in response to: Dave Nottage in response to: Dave Nottage
Dave Nottage wrote:

The long awaited Android fixes have been released:

https://cc.embarcadero.com/item/30781

..and source:

https://cc.embarcadero.com/item/30782

--
Dave Nottage [MVP, TeamB]
Find hints, tips and tricks at Delphi Worlds blog: http://www.delphiworlds.com
loki loki

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Re: Tokyo Android Compatibility Patch
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  Posted: Jun 23, 2017 1:40 PM   in response to: Dave Nottage in response to: Dave Nottage
On 6/23/2017 2:08 PM, Dave Nottage (TeamB) wrote:
Dave Nottage wrote:

The long awaited Android fixes have been released:

https://cc.embarcadero.com/item/30781

..and source:

https://cc.embarcadero.com/item/30782

oooh it's great that they didn't provide it as an update (mean no need
to uninstall/reinstall all delphi)

by the way could be great if emb stop to provide update like they did
(full reinstall of delphi) but instead like this one as patch ...
Malcolm Taylor

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Registered: 7/16/01
Re: Tokyo Android Compatibility Patch
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  Posted: Jun 23, 2017 2:20 PM   in response to: loki loki in response to: loki loki
loki loki wrote:

oooh it's great that they didn't provide it as an update (mean no
need to uninstall/reinstall all delphi)

by the way could be great if emb stop to provide update like they did
(full reinstall of delphi) but instead like this one as patch ...

Yes, but has it fixed most of the stuff reported?
In my first check I see an improvement (changing Style at runtime) but
it still does not work properly. So far as I can tell, the background
does not appear to be redrawn while most other elements are redrawn.
So flipping from a light to a dark style changes text to white against
the (still) light background.
Ah well, not as happy as I hoped to be. :(
loki loki

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Re: Tokyo Android Compatibility Patch
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  Posted: Jun 23, 2017 3:01 PM   in response to: Malcolm Taylor in response to: Malcolm Taylor
Yes, but has it fixed most of the stuff reported?
In my first check I see an improvement (changing Style at runtime) but
it still does not work properly. So far as I can tell, the background
does not appear to be redrawn while most other elements are redrawn.
So flipping from a light to a dark style changes text to white against
the (still) light background.
Ah well, not as happy as I hoped to be. :(

:( :( :( i don't have tokyo here so i can't test this correction:
https://quality.embarcadero.com/browse/RSP-17162

but i hope they did a good correction else it's simply the end of Delphi!
Dave Nottage

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Re: Tokyo Android Compatibility Patch
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  Posted: Jun 23, 2017 3:09 PM   in response to: loki loki in response to: loki loki
loki loki wrote:

:( :( :( i don't have tokyo here so i can't test this correction:
https://quality.embarcadero.com/browse/RSP-17162

I've tested it: there's an improvement, however it is not as much as I would have liked, especially given the
difference between Delphi's controls and yours.

--
Dave Nottage [MVP, TeamB]
Find hints, tips and tricks at Delphi Worlds blog: http://www.delphiworlds.com
loki loki

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Re: Tokyo Android Compatibility Patch
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  Posted: Jun 24, 2017 2:16 AM   in response to: Dave Nottage in response to: Dave Nottage
On 6/24/2017 1:09 AM, Dave Nottage (TeamB) wrote:
loki loki wrote:

:( :( :( i don't have tokyo here so i can't test this correction:
https://quality.embarcadero.com/browse/RSP-17162

I've tested it: there's an improvement, however it is not as much as I would have liked, especially given the
difference between Delphi's controls and yours.

Disaster :( I can't believe it! What the hell they did :(

But wait, you say their is a difference between Delphi's controls and
mine, that is normal at 100% (don't ever espect that delphi's controls
can be fast as mine one day), but is their any difference between Berlin
and Tokyo now ?
Markus Humm

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Re: Tokyo Android Compatibility Patch
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  Posted: Jun 24, 2017 6:13 AM   in response to: loki loki in response to: loki loki
Am 24.06.2017 um 11:16 schrieb loki loki:
On 6/24/2017 1:09 AM, Dave Nottage (TeamB) wrote:
loki loki wrote:

:( :( :( i don't have tokyo here so i can't test this correction:
https://quality.embarcadero.com/browse/RSP-17162

I've tested it: there's an improvement, however it is not as much as I would have liked, especially given the
difference between Delphi's controls and yours.

Disaster :( I can't believe it! What the hell they did :(

Can you be more precise about this one please?
Is it speed wise, or did they introduce new bugs so that something
doesn't work, if yes, what?

Greetings

Markus
Dave Nottage

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Re: Tokyo Android Compatibility Patch
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  Posted: Jun 24, 2017 7:21 AM   in response to: Markus Humm in response to: Markus Humm
Markus Humm wrote:

Can you be more precise about this one please?
Is it speed wise, or did they introduce new bugs so that something
doesn't work, if yes, what?

I believe he's referring to the issue before it (the one he is referring to) was addressed in the patch.

--
Dave Nottage [MVP, TeamB]
Find hints, tips and tricks at Delphi Worlds blog: http://www.delphiworlds.com
loki loki

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Re: Tokyo Android Compatibility Patch
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  Posted: Jun 24, 2017 3:03 PM   in response to: Dave Nottage in response to: Dave Nottage

I believe he's referring to the issue before it (the one he is referring to) was addressed in the patch.

I m dispear, scared and disgusted :( Tokyo is still 16% - 20% more slow
(and i didn't test everything, just the basic "refresh" rate) than berlin :(

Why is it so hard for the emb managing team to understand that a new
version can never be more slow than a previous version ! it's not
acceptable :(

I think they spend too much in the development of their merging
threading model in android to admit it's was a mistake and to remove it!
i don't see how it's was implemented but it's look like a pure managing
mistake here !

it's a pity :( What i will look like now when i will do a presentation
of Delphi :(

it's look like the Previous threading model (one thread for delphi UI
and one thread for android UI) was not a bad design.
Dave Nottage

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Re: Tokyo Android Compatibility Patch
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  Posted: Jun 24, 2017 3:40 PM   in response to: loki loki in response to: loki loki
loki loki wrote:

I m dispear, scared and disgusted :( Tokyo is still 16% - 20% more slow
(and i didn't test everything, just the basic "refresh" rate) than berlin :(

Is that with the same test case on the report?

--
Dave Nottage [MVP, TeamB]
Find hints, tips and tricks at Delphi Worlds blog: http://www.delphiworlds.com
loki loki

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Re: Tokyo Android Compatibility Patch
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  Posted: Jun 25, 2017 1:39 AM   in response to: Dave Nottage in response to: Dave Nottage
On 6/25/2017 1:40 AM, Dave Nottage (TeamB) wrote:
loki loki wrote:

I m dispear, scared and disgusted :( Tokyo is still 16% - 20% more slow
(and i didn't test everything, just the basic "refresh" rate) than berlin :(

Is that with the same test case on the report?

yes i only have this test case
Dalija Prasnikar

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Registered: 11/9/99
Re: Tokyo Android Compatibility Patch
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  Posted: Jun 25, 2017 5:14 AM   in response to: loki loki in response to: loki loki
loki loki wrote:

I believe he's referring to the issue before it (the one he is referring to) was addressed in the patch.

I m dispear, scared and disgusted :( Tokyo is still 16% - 20% more slow
(and i didn't test everything, just the basic "refresh" rate) than berlin :(

Why is it so hard for the emb managing team to understand that a new
version can never be more slow than a previous version ! it's not
acceptable :(

I am sure that is not hard for them to understand. However, it might be hard to fix fast.

What used to be spread to two threads was merged to work in one. How much of existing
FMX functionality can be optimized (beyond what has already been done) and/or
pushed in another thread and how fast can all that be implemented is a real question.

I think they spend too much in the development of their merging
threading model in android to admit it's was a mistake and to remove it!
i don't see how it's was implemented but it's look like a pure managing
mistake here !

it's a pity :( What i will look like now when i will do a presentation
of Delphi :(

it's look like the Previous threading model (one thread for delphi UI
and one thread for android UI) was not a bad design.

Actually, that was bad design, just for different reasons. Having single UI thread
was step into the right direction. However, there are more steps that have to be done
in terms of optimizing FMX code.

Rolling back to bad threading model is not the proper solution.

--
Dalija Prasnikar
https://twitter.com/dalijap
https://plus.google.com/+DalijaPrasnikar
loki loki

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Re: Tokyo Android Compatibility Patch
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  Posted: Jun 25, 2017 10:16 AM   in response to: Dalija Prasnikar in response to: Dalija Prasnikar
I am sure that is not hard for them to understand. However, it might be hard to fix fast.

no one was really so much hurry to have the threads merged. it's
necessary, but not at the cost than nothing else work ! and also the
lack of communication from emb make everyone (me including) completely
scared.

Do you imagine that right now i can't imagine to update to tokyo, so how
i will maintain my application in the futur ? maybe emb will decide that
people like me who need performance are not their priority and i m ****
:( they already did this in the past ...

actually we are not even sure that the merging of threading model was a
good idea, as i see it's make everything more slow so maybe originally
they was a good reason to make delphi running on a different thread than
the main thread ... an article/note from emb speaking about this is
cruelly missing! but as the past Firemonkey team was fired, maybe now
noone know it anymore.


it's look like the Previous threading model (one thread for delphi UI
and one thread for android UI) was not a bad design.

Actually, that was bad design, just for different reasons. Having single UI thread
was step into the right direction. However, there are more steps that have to be done
in terms of optimizing FMX code.

Rolling back to bad threading model is not the proper solution.

sorry but having a solution that is more slow is definitively
(definitively) not the proper solution! And as delphi work quite fully
on his own side, their is not really lot of interaction with the java ui
thread so it's not really a big deal to have 2 threads.

Me as i understand (from what i heard), Tokyo is the result of idera
culture, made by freelancer where old team was fired (again from what i
heard), and as we see this kind of way simply ... NOT WORK ! because
they do "publisher", they even don't take the time to test it before to
release it in production ... their job look ok on the first view, so
it's finish ... typically a freelancer way !

Conclusion: it's a disaster :(
Markus Humm

Posts: 5,113
Registered: 11/9/03
Re: Tokyo Android Compatibility Patch
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  Posted: Jun 25, 2017 10:59 PM   in response to: loki loki in response to: loki loki
Hello,

I can really understand your frustration.

I guess the merge is necessary for being able to support native controls
in the future, something I'd like them to do.

I hope they release further fixes which improve situation more than this
one and I reall hope they learned their lesson "on the testing front"!

Better communication would have been helpful as well.

Greetings

Markus
loki loki

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Registered: 7/1/02
Re: Tokyo Android Compatibility Patch
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  Posted: Jun 26, 2017 12:27 AM   in response to: Markus Humm in response to: Markus Humm
Hello,

I can really understand your frustration.

I guess the merge is necessary for being able to support native controls
in the future, something I'd like them to do.

I already support native control (like Edit/memo) without this merge and
it's work great, not perfect i admit because we need to synch between
thread but it's work thank to the android function CallInUiThread.


I hope they release further fixes which improve situation more than this
one and I reall hope they learned their lesson "on the testing front"!

The biggest problem is that right now we don't know if merging threading
is "feasible", and they put already everything in production!

The biggest problem, i m quite sure that emb will not take care about
20% of speed penalty and will stay on this poor solution! it's what they
do be releasing this poor patch ...

Idera/emb is sinking :(
Markus Humm

Posts: 5,113
Registered: 11/9/03
Re: Tokyo Android Compatibility Patch
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  Posted: Jun 26, 2017 3:56 AM   in response to: loki loki in response to: loki loki
Am 26.06.2017 um 09:27 schrieb loki loki:

I hope they release further fixes which improve situation more than this
one and I reall hope they learned their lesson "on the testing front"!

The biggest problem is that right now we don't know if merging threading
is "feasible", and they put already everything in production!

The biggest problem, i m quite sure that emb will not take care about
20% of speed penalty and will stay on this poor solution! it's what they
do be releasing this poor patch ...

Idera/emb is sinking :(

No it's not. Marco is well aware that this hotfix is not a 100% solution
and they're working on more fixes, but it simply contains some fixes
ready worth releasing already to improve the situation.

He knows that performance still is an issue.

Please calm down!

Greetings

Markus
loki loki

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Re: Tokyo Android Compatibility Patch
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  Posted: Jun 26, 2017 4:56 AM   in response to: Markus Humm in response to: Markus Humm

No it's not. Marco is well aware that this hotfix is not a 100% solution
and they're working on more fixes, but it simply contains some fixes
ready worth releasing already to improve the situation.

He knows that performance still is an issue.

Please calm down!

baah why he don't say it ? why provide a fix that just partially resolve
the problem and in this way can make much more problem because developer
will start to work on this base, and you know when later the basement
change it's a problem :(

at least are they sure they can resolve the problem? because their is
some problem that cannot be resolved !

for what i see now, this patch look like a permanent patch ... how you
want i keep calm i work with delphi me !

Markus Humm

Posts: 5,113
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Re: Tokyo Android Compatibility Patch
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  Posted: Jun 26, 2017 6:37 AM   in response to: loki loki in response to: loki loki
Am 26.06.2017 um 13:56 schrieb loki loki:

No it's not. Marco is well aware that this hotfix is not a 100% solution
and they're working on more fixes, but it simply contains some fixes
ready worth releasing already to improve the situation.

He knows that performance still is an issue.

Please calm down!

baah why he don't say it ? why provide a fix that just partially resolve
the problem and in this way can make much more problem because developer
will start to work on this base, and you know when later the basement
change it's a problem :(

at least are they sure they can resolve the problem? because their is
some problem that cannot be resolved !

for what i see now, this patch look like a permanent patch ... how you
want i keep calm i work with delphi me !


I do work with it either and I also have a 55 KLoc Android app still
waiting to be finished, albeit still in Berlin.

Greetings

Markus
loki loki

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Re: Tokyo Android Compatibility Patch
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  Posted: Jun 26, 2017 6:53 AM   in response to: Markus Humm in response to: Markus Humm

I do work with it either and I also have a 55 KLoc Android app still
waiting to be finished, albeit still in Berlin.

me 380 kloc and like you still in berlin
and don't want to redo all my loc !
Markus Humm

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Re: Tokyo Android Compatibility Patch
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  Posted: Jun 26, 2017 1:34 PM   in response to: loki loki in response to: loki loki
Am 26.06.2017 um 15:53 schrieb loki loki:

I do work with it either and I also have a 55 KLoc Android app still
waiting to be finished, albeit still in Berlin.

me 380 kloc and like you still in berlin
and don't want to redo all my loc !

Neither do I. Another mobile app in in development which borrowed a bit
of code from the other (it has higher priority currently), but not so
much GUI side. But I still use Berlin for this.

Greetings

Markus
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Registered: 9/22/99
Re: Tokyo Android Compatibility Patch
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  Posted: Jun 27, 2017 12:37 AM   in response to: loki loki in response to: loki loki
loki loki wrote:


No it's not. Marco is well aware that this hotfix is not a 100%
solution and they're working on more fixes, but it simply contains
some fixes ready worth releasing already to improve the situation.

He knows that performance still is an issue.

Please calm down!

baah why he don't say it ? why provide a fix that just partially
resolve the problem


I guess they could have waited until everything was resolved, but that
would probably take longer, so they released what they had, so people
can at least move on.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"People demand freedom of speech to make up for the freedom of
thought which they avoid."
-- Soren Aabye Kierkegaard (1813-1855)
loki loki

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Re: Tokyo Android Compatibility Patch
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  Posted: Jun 27, 2017 1:30 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...

I guess they could have waited until everything was resolved, but that
would probably take longer, so they released what they had, so people
can at least move on.

move on where ?? to berlin ;) ;)
Markus Humm

Posts: 5,113
Registered: 11/9/03
Re: Tokyo Android Compatibility Patch
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  Posted: Jun 27, 2017 6:28 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Am 27.06.2017 um 09:37 schrieb Rudy Velthuis (TeamB):
loki loki wrote:


No it's not. Marco is well aware that this hotfix is not a 100%
solution and they're working on more fixes, but it simply contains
some fixes ready worth releasing already to improve the situation.

He knows that performance still is an issue.

Please calm down!

baah why he don't say it ? why provide a fix that just partially
resolve the problem


I guess they could have waited until everything was resolved, but that
would probably take longer, so they released what they had, so people
can at least move on.

I simply fear that most can't move on with that.
But maybe they can release those fixes which are compatible with Berlin
for Berlin to we folks having to stay longer on Berlin due to the other
issues get at least some bugs fixed?

Greetings

Markus
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: Tokyo Android Compatibility Patch
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  Posted: Jun 27, 2017 6:57 AM   in response to: Markus Humm in response to: Markus Humm
Markus Humm wrote:

Am 27.06.2017 um 09:37 schrieb Rudy Velthuis (TeamB):
loki loki wrote:


No it's not. Marco is well aware that this hotfix is not a 100%
solution and they're working on more fixes, but it simply contains
some fixes ready worth releasing already to improve the situation.

He knows that performance still is an issue.

Please calm down!

baah why he don't say it ? why provide a fix that just partially
resolve the problem


I guess they could have waited until everything was resolved, but
that would probably take longer, so they released what they had, so
people can at least move on.

I simply fear that most can't move on with that.

But probably some can. At least, I assume that is what they intended. I
don't use Android myself, but I can imagine that they simply released
what they had so far, in order to be able to help some people.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Testing by itself does not improve software quality. Test
results are an indicator of quality, but in and of themselves,
they don't improve it. Trying to improve software quality by
increasing the amount of testing is like trying to lose weight
by weighing yourself more often. What you eat before you step
onto the scale determines how much you will weigh, and the
software development techniques you use determine how many
errors testing will find. If you want to lose weight, don't
buy a new scale; change your diet. If you want to improve your
software, don't test more; develop better."
-- Steve McConnell Code Complete
Markus Humm

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Re: Tokyo Android Compatibility Patch
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  Posted: Jun 27, 2017 11:18 PM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Am 27.06.2017 um 15:57 schrieb Rudy Velthuis (TeamB):
Markus Humm wrote:

I simply fear that most can't move on with that.

But probably some can. At least, I assume that is what they intended. I
don't use Android myself, but I can imagine that they simply released
what they had so far, in order to be able to help some people.

Yes I fully understand and it's ok, but performance for non helllo world
kinds of apps is still not bearable.

So for the interim it might be nice to get those fixes which can be
ported to Berlin without much work or issues provided for Berlinuntil
they get those performance issues fixed.

Greetings

Markus
Dalija Prasnikar

Posts: 2,325
Registered: 11/9/99
Re: Tokyo Android Compatibility Patch
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  Posted: Jun 26, 2017 3:45 AM   in response to: loki loki in response to: loki loki
loki loki wrote:
I am sure that is not hard for them to understand. However, it might be hard to fix fast.

no one was really so much hurry to have the threads merged. it's
necessary, but not at the cost than nothing else work ! and also the
lack of communication from emb make everyone (me including) completely
scared.

Lack of communication is nothing new. Also it is not complete lack of
communication - they said they are working on it. And while I completely
understand your need and desire to know more - it is not something they
can easily give you - this is not something anyone can give you.

Unless, you are dealing with simple fix it is hard to predict how long will
it take to do something. They could tell you it will be done in a week, but
what if they fail to deliver in promised time?

I am not sure why you say lack of information scares you. I can understand
that you cannot plan your own schedule if you don't know what and when will
be fixed, but beyond that there is nothing to be scared of.

Do you imagine that right now i can't imagine to update to tokyo, so how
i will maintain my application in the futur ? maybe emb will decide that
people like me who need performance are not their priority and i m ****
:( they already did this in the past ...

There are many things that are priority and none of them are. Critical issues
will always have higher priority. At certain point performance can also be
considered critical issue - but that depends on how slow and usable things
are. Of course, it is hard to define what is acceptable performance. What
works for someone may be showstopper for someone else.


it's look like the Previous threading model (one thread for delphi UI
and one thread for android UI) was not a bad design.

Actually, that was bad design, just for different reasons. Having single UI thread
was step into the right direction. However, there are more steps that have to be done
in terms of optimizing FMX code.

Rolling back to bad threading model is not the proper solution.

sorry but having a solution that is more slow is definitively
(definitively) not the proper solution! And as delphi work quite fully
on his own side, their is not really lot of interaction with the java ui
thread so it's not really a big deal to have 2 threads.

Problem here is that gaining more speed will require more extensive
changes. Such changes need time. On the other hand, without merging
threading models, you would have FMX team wasting their time working
on code that will be useless once threading model is changed.

It is really hard to make fast progress with features and not bumping
into regression issues - or should I say making things worse before
you can make them better.

Me as i understand (from what i heard), Tokyo is the result of idera
culture, made by freelancer where old team was fired (again from what i
heard), and as we see this kind of way simply ... NOT WORK ! because
they do "publisher", they even don't take the time to test it before to
release it in production ... their job look ok on the first view, so
it's finish ... typically a freelancer way !

There were problems with FMX from the day one. Even with old team there
would be no guarantees. Maybe new team can bring some fresh ideas and
perspective and can more easily discard bad design choices.

--
Dalija Prasnikar
https://twitter.com/dalijap
https://plus.google.com/+DalijaPrasnikar
loki loki

Posts: 787
Registered: 7/1/02
Re: Tokyo Android Compatibility Patch
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  Posted: Jun 26, 2017 5:19 AM   in response to: Dalija Prasnikar in response to: Dalija Prasnikar
Lack of communication is nothing new. Also it is not complete lack of
communication - they said they are working on it. And while I completely
understand your need and desire to know more - it is not something they
can easily give you - this is not something anyone can give you.

Unless, you are dealing with simple fix it is hard to predict how long will
it take to do something. They could tell you it will be done in a week, but
what if they fail to deliver in promised time?

no, i don't ask for a date, the lack of communication is to know where
the problem is! their is some very good android developers here that can
also help from their knowledge and experience. I m not a beginner
developer and i know perfectly that is not always possible to gave a
fixed date, often something you think will cost you 1 week can cost you
one months or more


I am not sure why you say lack of information scares you. I can understand
that you cannot plan your own schedule if you don't know what and when will
be fixed, but beyond that there is nothing to be scared of.

yes i m scared that what they are trying to do is not feasible. Take an
example, i build some native android control, and i realize that the
z-order of the native android windows is not good. So i was thinking
it's will cost me one hour (max) to find a proper way to set the z-order
of windows in android. After 3 weeks, studying all the code source of
android, trying all the possible hack, i simply end by : it's not
feasible ! but on the paper it's look like something fully trivial to do

when your datacenter crash, their is always (on decent datacenter) a
page explaining why it's shunt down and what their are doing. it's
exactly this we need! why it's slow (they event don't say because of the
threading model, we just know it's slow) and what they are actually
doing ... a technical information blog!

But it's not that i m scared that what they are doing is not feasible, i
m scared that they will never admit it and go back (i start to know
them) and prefer to stay in the middle, having 20% speed lost (or more)
... no really matter for hello world app after all


sorry but having a solution that is more slow is definitively
(definitively) not the proper solution! And as delphi work quite fully
on his own side, their is not really lot of interaction with the java ui
thread so it's not really a big deal to have 2 threads.

Problem here is that gaining more speed will require more extensive
changes. Such changes need time. On the other hand, without merging
threading models, you would have FMX team wasting their time working
on code that will be useless once threading model is changed.

no sorry i don't share you point of view. you don't get out a partial
solution that not work and block everything because it's take time to
make the full solution! you get out a full working solution or you do
nothing, but no partial !!


There were problems with FMX from the day one. Even with old team there
would be no guarantees. Maybe new team can bring some fresh ideas and
perspective and can more easily discard bad design choices.

i see the fresh ideas of the new team, i don't like it !
Dalija Prasnikar

Posts: 2,325
Registered: 11/9/99
Re: Tokyo Android Compatibility Patch
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  Posted: Jun 26, 2017 6:45 AM   in response to: loki loki in response to: loki loki
loki loki wrote:
Lack of communication is nothing new. Also it is not complete lack of
communication - they said they are working on it. And while I completely
understand your need and desire to know more - it is not something they
can easily give you - this is not something anyone can give you.

Unless, you are dealing with simple fix it is hard to predict how long will
it take to do something. They could tell you it will be done in a week, but
what if they fail to deliver in promised time?

no, i don't ask for a date, the lack of communication is to know where
the problem is! their is some very good android developers here that can
also help from their knowledge and experience. I m not a beginner
developer and i know perfectly that is not always possible to gave a
fixed date, often something you think will cost you 1 week can cost you
one months or more

Any developer capable of helping them would also be capable of finding
out where the problem is. Problem was in merging threads. Of course, that is
not specific enough. But for anyone interested profiling and finding out
bottlenecks should not be too hard. Also, it as quite possible that finding
bottlenecks is not the problem but finding proper and fast solution.

Communicating all the specifics would probably be waste of their valuable time.



I am not sure why you say lack of information scares you. I can understand
that you cannot plan your own schedule if you don't know what and when will
be fixed, but beyond that there is nothing to be scared of.

yes i m scared that what they are trying to do is not feasible. Take an
example, i build some native android control, and i realize that the
z-order of the native android windows is not good. So i was thinking
it's will cost me one hour (max) to find a proper way to set the z-order
of windows in android. After 3 weeks, studying all the code source of
android, trying all the possible hack, i simply end by : it's not
feasible ! but on the paper it's look like something fully trivial to do

Just because you could not find solution that does not mean there is
no solution to the problem.

when your datacenter crash, their is always (on decent datacenter) a
page explaining why it's shunt down and what their are doing. it's
exactly this we need! why it's slow (they event don't say because of the
threading model, we just know it's slow) and what they are actually
doing ... a technical information blog!

Data center crashes are different category.

But it's not that i m scared that what they are doing is not feasible, i
m scared that they will never admit it and go back (i start to know
them) and prefer to stay in the middle, having 20% speed lost (or more)
... no really matter for hello world app after all

Well, I am not sure how much will that mean to you, but I know that
they are on the right path. I know that for sure. Unified UI thread
provides solid foundation to build and write all else. Without that
it would be like building castle in a sand. You can almost finish it,
but you never know when it will crumble to the ground.

And yes, it is possible to fix speed issues. Question is how fast
because it may require deeper framework changes.

I am not that familiar with current FMX code, and I don't know
whether or not this changed, but at one point they were repainting
whole screen even if some small part of the screen actually needed
the update. Also scaling could be one source of issues, and next
thing is doing unnecessary calculations over and over again.



sorry but having a solution that is more slow is definitively
(definitively) not the proper solution! And as delphi work quite fully
on his own side, their is not really lot of interaction with the java ui
thread so it's not really a big deal to have 2 threads.

Problem here is that gaining more speed will require more extensive
changes. Such changes need time. On the other hand, without merging
threading models, you would have FMX team wasting their time working
on code that will be useless once threading model is changed.

no sorry i don't share you point of view. you don't get out a partial
solution that not work and block everything because it's take time to
make the full solution! you get out a full working solution or you do
nothing, but no partial !!


I agree that publishing partial solutions is not the best, but on the other
hand there is simply no time to do everything right on the first run.

Once anyone gets out with some new framework, compiler or anything they
have to patch it as they go. This is not something unique to Delphi.

--
Dalija Prasnikar
https://twitter.com/dalijap
https://plus.google.com/+DalijaPrasnikar
loki loki

Posts: 787
Registered: 7/1/02
Re: Tokyo Android Compatibility Patch
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  Posted: Jun 26, 2017 7:01 AM   in response to: Dalija Prasnikar in response to: Dalija Prasnikar
Just because you could not find solution that does not mean there is
no solution to the problem.

sometime their is no solution ...

also threading model is purely a problem of developper that final client
don't care. but speed penalty in the app is a problem for final client

how can you say : update to the last version of the app, well it's more
slow, maybe also more buggy, no new feature, but for me as a developper
it's great because it's merge the thread ....

Data center crashes are different category.

yeeea emb crash is more in the category of plane crash than datacenter
crash i agree :)

Well, I am not sure how much will that mean to you, but I know that
they are on the right path. I know that for sure. Unified UI thread
provides solid foundation to build and write all else. Without that
it would be like building castle in a sand. You can almost finish it,
but you never know when it will crumble to the ground.

i agree about the unified UI thread IF IT'S FEASIBLE !
do you know why originally they was split ? maybe for a good raison ;)


I am not that familiar with current FMX code, and I don't know
whether or not this changed, but at one point they were repainting
whole screen even if some small part of the screen actually needed
the update.

yes was like this on berlin, but it's work ok !
Dave Nottage

Posts: 1,850
Registered: 1/7/00
Re: Tokyo Android Compatibility Patch
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  Posted: Jun 23, 2017 3:07 PM   in response to: Malcolm Taylor in response to: Malcolm Taylor
Malcolm Taylor wrote:

In my first check I see an improvement (changing Style at runtime) but
it still does not work properly. So far as I can tell, the background
does not appear to be redrawn while most other elements are redrawn.
So flipping from a light to a dark style changes text to white against
the (still) light background.

Is there a particular report you're referring to?

--
Dave Nottage [MVP, TeamB]
Find hints, tips and tricks at Delphi Worlds blog: http://www.delphiworlds.com
Malcolm Taylor

Posts: 148
Registered: 7/16/01
Re: Tokyo Android Compatibility Patch
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  Posted: Jun 23, 2017 4:20 PM   in response to: Dave Nottage in response to: Dave Nottage
Dave Nottage wrote:

Malcolm Taylor wrote:

In my first check I see an improvement (changing Style at runtime)
but it still does not work properly. So far as I can tell, the
background does not appear to be redrawn while most other elements
are redrawn. So flipping from a light to a dark style changes text
to white against the (still) light background.

Is there a particular report you're referring to?

Yes, Dave, RSP-17771

I also have a couple of apps that offer a day/night style switch and
after a quick rebuild they also seem to show that the background
remains unchanged while the other controls do change.

I think I also saw some text artifacts like faint shadows where the
text was slightly different between the styles. But I need to do some
proper tests before I update the above report.
Dave Nottage

Posts: 1,850
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Re: Tokyo Android Compatibility Patch
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  Posted: Jun 23, 2017 4:25 PM   in response to: Malcolm Taylor in response to: Malcolm Taylor
Malcolm Taylor wrote:

Is there a particular report you're referring to?

Yes, Dave, RSP-17771

There's a list of fixed issues at the bottom of the link I provided. When you said "still doesn't work properly", I
thought you meant that you were referring to one that is listed as fixed.

--
Dave Nottage [MVP, TeamB]
Find hints, tips and tricks at Delphi Worlds blog: http://www.delphiworlds.com
Malcolm Taylor

Posts: 148
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Re: Tokyo Android Compatibility Patch
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  Posted: Jun 23, 2017 4:46 PM   in response to: Dave Nottage in response to: Dave Nottage
Dave Nottage wrote:

There's a list of fixed issues at the bottom of the link I provided.
When you said "still doesn't work properly", I thought you meant that
you were referring to one that is listed as fixed.

Granted the report is not listed as fixed, but I was hoping that as the
cause seemed likely to be down to the known image/graphics rendering
issues, it would be fixed as a by product of the other fixes. And
there is a marked improvement - just not complete. :(
Malcolm Taylor

Posts: 148
Registered: 7/16/01
Re: Tokyo Android Compatibility Patch
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  Posted: Jun 25, 2017 4:38 AM   in response to: Malcolm Taylor in response to: Malcolm Taylor
I added a comment to https://quality.embarcadero.com/browse/RSP-17771
to reflect the result of applying the June Patch
Remy Lebeau (Te...


Posts: 9,447
Registered: 12/23/01
Re: Tokyo Android Compatibility Patch
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  Posted: Jun 23, 2017 2:41 PM   in response to: loki loki in response to: loki loki
loki loki wrote:

oooh it's great that they didn't provide it as an update (mean no
need to uninstall/reinstall all delphi)

by the way could be great if emb stop to provide update like they did
(full reinstall of delphi) but instead like this one as patch ...

They generally can't do that. Marco explained that on his blog during
the 10.1 updates. It is not feisible to provide simple patch updates
when dealing with multiple SKUs and different levels of customer
updates, all of which have to be taken into account, so a full
reinstall is usually the best option. Patching onlny works for small
changes, or changes that effect everyone equally.

--
Remy Lebeau (TeamB)

loki loki

Posts: 787
Registered: 7/1/02
Re: Tokyo Android Compatibility Patch
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  Posted: Jun 23, 2017 2:55 PM   in response to: Remy Lebeau (Te... in response to: Remy Lebeau (Te...
They generally can't do that. Marco explained that on his blog during
the 10.1 updates. It is not feisible to provide simple patch updates
when dealing with multiple SKUs and different levels of customer
updates, all of which have to be taken into account, so a full
reinstall is usually the best option. Patching onlny works for small
changes, or changes that effect everyone equally.

it's feasible! the only update we are taking care in 99% of the case is
the DCU and the .PAS file

a simple patch/zip file is enalf

reinstalling delphi, probably loosing everything, no way to revert back
easily if somethink go wrong it's simply a ... no way to go !!
Dave Nottage

Posts: 1,850
Registered: 1/7/00
Re: Tokyo Android Compatibility Patch
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  Posted: Jun 23, 2017 3:06 PM   in response to: loki loki in response to: loki loki
loki loki wrote:

it's feasible! the only update we are taking care in 99% of the case is
the DCU and the .PAS file

a simple patch/zip file is enalf

It's very different when it includes things that affect the IDE and some parts of the toolchain, e.g. the Linux
compiler is not included in all SKUs.

--
Dave Nottage [MVP, TeamB]
Find hints, tips and tricks at Delphi Worlds blog: http://www.delphiworlds.com
Remy Lebeau (Te...


Posts: 9,447
Registered: 12/23/01
Re: Tokyo Android Compatibility Patch
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  Posted: Jun 23, 2017 3:46 PM   in response to: Dave Nottage in response to: Dave Nottage
Dave Nottage wrote:

It's very different when it includes things that affect the IDE and
some parts of the toolchain, e.g. the Linux compiler is not included
in all SKUs.

Or things that are implemented differently in different SKUs. Or that
already been changed in previous updates (or lack of).

--
Remy Lebeau (TeamB)
Rudy Velthuis (...


Posts: 7,729
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: Tokyo Android Compatibility Patch
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  Posted: Jun 23, 2017 3:50 PM   in response to: loki loki in response to: loki loki
loki loki wrote:

They generally can't do that. Marco explained that on his blog
during the 10.1 updates. It is not feisible to provide simple
patch updates when dealing with multiple SKUs and different levels
of customer updates, all of which have to be taken into account, so
a full reinstall is usually the best option. Patching onlny works
for small changes, or changes that effect everyone equally.

it's feasible! the only update we are taking care in 99% of the case
is the DCU and the .PAS file

a simple patch/zip file is enalf

Again, the word is "enough", not "enalf".

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Heav'n hath no rage like love to hatred turn'd, Nor Hell a fury,
like a woman scorn'd."
-- William Congreve (1670-1729)
Shanil M

Posts: 62
Registered: 12/24/04
Re: Tokyo Android Compatibility Patch
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  Posted: Jun 26, 2017 2:57 AM   in response to: Dave Nottage in response to: Dave Nottage
Wow so much already said in this thread.

Can someone please summarize for me if it's now possible to upgrade to Tokyo or stay on Berlin? This is for Android only.
Markus Humm

Posts: 5,113
Registered: 11/9/03
Re: Tokyo Android Compatibility Patch
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  Posted: Jun 26, 2017 3:58 AM   in response to: Shanil M in response to: Shanil M
Am 26.06.2017 um 11:57 schrieb Shanil M:
Wow so much already said in this thread.

Can someone please summarize for me if it's now possible to upgrade to Tokyo or stay on Berlin? This is for Android only.

Hello,

Android support got improved but not as much as everybody hoped.
EMBT is aware of it and further fixes will be developed.

=> currently I'll stay on Berlin until further fixes arrive.

Greetings

Markus
loki loki

Posts: 787
Registered: 7/1/02
Re: Tokyo Android Compatibility Patch
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  Posted: Jun 26, 2017 5:24 AM   in response to: Markus Humm in response to: Markus Humm
Android support got improved but not as much as everybody hoped.
EMBT is aware of it and further fixes will be developed.

I'm not sure about the further fixes, time will say !

=> currently I'll stay on Berlin until further fixes arrive.

me too, but on berlin soon we will not be able to deploy on xcode
(except if emb provide patch for ios 10 but i guess they will never do
to force you instead to buy a new release) ... so it's not a solution...
Dave Nottage

Posts: 1,850
Registered: 1/7/00
Re: Tokyo Android Compatibility Patch
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  Posted: Jun 26, 2017 4:47 AM   in response to: Shanil M in response to: Shanil M
Shanil M wrote:

Can someone please summarize for me if it's now possible to upgrade to Tokyo or stay on Berlin? This is for Android
only.

For me, now that the OnIdle (or lack thereof) issue and issues with the edit controls have been resolved, I'm full
steam ahead with Tokyo. Others mileage may vary, as I'm not attempting to do anything super with graphics or too
demanding of performance.

--
Dave Nottage [MVP, TeamB]
Find hints, tips and tricks at Delphi Worlds blog: http://www.delphiworlds.com
loki loki

Posts: 787
Registered: 7/1/02
Re: Tokyo Android Compatibility Patch
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  Posted: Jun 26, 2017 5:21 AM   in response to: Dave Nottage in response to: Dave Nottage

For me, now that the OnIdle (or lack thereof) issue and issues with the edit controls have been resolved, I'm full
steam ahead with Tokyo. Others mileage may vary, as I'm not attempting to do anything super with graphics or too
demanding of performance.

you was already on Tokyo as i know ;)
Dave Nottage

Posts: 1,850
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Re: Tokyo Android Compatibility Patch
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  Posted: Jun 26, 2017 2:39 PM   in response to: loki loki in response to: loki loki
loki loki wrote:

you was already on Tokyo as i know ;)

I know you know, however I wouldn't have been able to release anything substantial (the demo apps in my blog articles
were showcases of techniques, rather than complete apps) until the TEdit and OnIdle problems were sufficiently resolved.

--
Dave Nottage [MVP, TeamB]
Find hints, tips and tricks at Delphi Worlds blog: http://www.delphiworlds.com
loki loki

Posts: 787
Registered: 7/1/02
Re: Tokyo Android Compatibility Patch
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  Posted: Jun 27, 2017 1:31 AM   in response to: Dave Nottage in response to: Dave Nottage
I know you know, however I wouldn't have been able to release anything substantial (the demo apps in my blog articles
were showcases of techniques, rather than complete apps) until the TEdit and OnIdle problems were sufficiently resolved.

you need to use my native android Tedit :)
Dave Nottage

Posts: 1,850
Registered: 1/7/00
Re: Tokyo Android Compatibility Patch
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  Posted: Jun 27, 2017 1:58 AM   in response to: loki loki in response to: loki loki
loki loki wrote:

you need to use my native android Tedit :)

I'm working on my own ;-)

--
Dave Nottage [MVP, TeamB]
Find hints, tips and tricks at Delphi Worlds blog: http://www.delphiworlds.com
loki loki

Posts: 787
Registered: 7/1/02
Re: Tokyo Android Compatibility Patch
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  Posted: Jun 27, 2017 2:41 AM   in response to: Dave Nottage in response to: Dave Nottage
On 6/27/2017 11:58 AM, Dave Nottage (TeamB) wrote:
loki loki wrote:

you need to use my native android Tedit :)

I'm working on my own ;-)

hmm what the purpose to do again what it's already made ?
loki loki

Posts: 787
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Re: Tokyo Android Compatibility Patch
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  Posted: Jun 27, 2017 4:32 AM   in response to: loki loki in response to: loki loki
On 6/27/2017 12:41 PM, loki loki wrote:
On 6/27/2017 11:58 AM, Dave Nottage (TeamB) wrote:
loki loki wrote:

you need to use my native android Tedit :)

I'm working on my own ;-)

hmm what the purpose to do again what it's already made ?

by the way speaking about this, i just finish to implement this in my
native android Tedit :

http://abhiandroid.jobxfryqt.netdna-cdn.com/materialdesign/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/Floating-Labels-In-EditText-TextInputLayout-Android.gif

:)
Dave Nottage

Posts: 1,850
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Re: Tokyo Android Compatibility Patch
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  Posted: Jun 27, 2017 1:00 PM   in response to: loki loki in response to: loki loki
loki loki wrote:

I'm working on my own ;-)

hmm what the purpose to do again what it's already made ?

You mean yours? Because mine will fit in with the rest of what I've already done, or am planning to do. I fully expect
that I'll be learning something from yours :-)

--
Dave Nottage [MVP, TeamB]
Find hints, tips and tricks at Delphi Worlds blog: http://www.delphiworlds.com
loki loki

Posts: 787
Registered: 7/1/02
Re: Tokyo Android Compatibility Patch
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  Posted: Jun 27, 2017 3:07 PM   in response to: Dave Nottage in response to: Dave Nottage
I'm working on my own ;-)

hmm what the purpose to do again what it's already made ?

You mean yours? Because mine will fit in with the rest of what I've already done, or am planning to do. I fully expect
that I'll be learning something from yours :-)

baah yes because i face lot of challenge, cost me around 1 month of
developpement (look easy but it is absolutely not, in particular with
the actionbar)

when you will start, if you can answer :

https://stackoverflow.com/questions/44231597/how-to-change-the-z-order-of-window-added-via-windowmanager

https://stackoverflow.com/questions/44708338/setimeactionlabel-or-setimeoptions-not-work-i-always-have-caption-done-on-the

would be great sharing ;)
Dave Nottage

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Re: Tokyo Android Compatibility Patch
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  Posted: Jun 27, 2017 7:52 PM   in response to: loki loki in response to: loki loki

Yes, Z-order is something that will likely interest me.. maybe not so much IME, but I can take a look.

--
Dave Nottage [TeamB]
Find hints tips and tricks at Delphi Worlds blog: http://www.delphiworlds.com
Jeremy North

Posts: 402
Registered: 9/20/99
Re: Tokyo Android Compatibility Patch
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  Posted: Jun 26, 2017 5:21 PM   in response to: Dave Nottage in response to: Dave Nottage
Dave Nottage wrote:
The long awaited Android fixes have been released:

https://cc.embarcadero.com/item/30781

So they can spam my inbox with special offers and marketing garb even when we are on an enterprise subscription of 9 BUT they can't tell us when an important update is available.

wow...
Markus Humm

Posts: 5,113
Registered: 11/9/03
Re: Tokyo Android Compatibility Patch
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  Posted: Jun 26, 2017 11:32 PM   in response to: Jeremy North in response to: Jeremy North
Am 27.06.2017 um 02:21 schrieb Jeremy North:
Dave Nottage wrote:
The long awaited Android fixes have been released:

https://cc.embarcadero.com/item/30781

So they can spam my inbox with special offers and marketing garb even when we are on an enterprise subscription of 9 BUT they can't tell us when an important update is available.

wow...

Hello,

while I'll fully agree to you posting this here is a bit useless. Better
write this directly to Marco Cantu or Mr. Millington or Sarina Du Pont.

Greetings

Markus
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