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Thread: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers


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Permlink Replies: 1,661 - Last Post: Jul 13, 2017 11:05 AM Last Post By: Quentin Correll
N/A Programmer

Posts: 101
Registered: 12/5/02
Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers
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  Posted: Mar 3, 2017 7:34 PM
I apologize in advance that my name does not appear above, I've been unable to get it changed from N/A programmer for years. This is not intended as an anonymous post.

I'm a Delphi fan since v.1, but I think the current plans for marketing Delphi for Linux to only the higher priced environments is a bad marketing decision. I'm sure the goal is to upsell many Pro users, but I think it will have the opposite effect..

Many of us do not use a the Embarcadero database/web technologies. For us we have Pro version. But recent blog posts have said we will not have access to the Delphi Linux compiler with the Pro tool.

I've heard from many developers on boards who've decided to cut ties to Delphi and instead go with FreePascal over the ever-increasin costs, and decisions like not supporting Linux in the Pro version.

Marco replied to me that Linux support without the Apache module would be less useful, well I think that's for me the customer to decide how I want to use it. And if you're going to bundle Android and iOS, why not linux?

Yes, we all hear how this or that will be the end of Delphi. I'm sure I'll continue to subscribe for the Pro version because I have too much Windows legacy code to support, but my Linux and thus probably Windows server needs will increasingly be handled by Free Pascal just because it supports more environments and doesn't try to force me to adopt a lot of software I don't need.

Lastly, please stop spamming us every day with offers... we're already customers, it's just annoying.

Thanks

--
Erick Engelke
Enterprise Delphi Databases Book
Using Elevate Web Builder Book
HTML5 Builder Book
http://www.erickengelke.com
David Alcelay

Posts: 9
Registered: 11/13/01
Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers
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  Posted: Mar 4, 2017 1:29 AM   in response to: N/A Programmer in response to: N/A Programmer
Totally agree.
In my company, we use some high licenses due to database applications, but we use much more pro licenses because we develop many applications that don't need database connection. So, now, if we want to deliver these applications for Linux, we have to upgrade all those Pro licenses...we speak of many money. And for what? to deliver applications that don't need any databases or features from higer licenses. Now, we are deciding what to do...pay or change?

N/A Programmer wrote:
I apologize in advance that my name does not appear above, I've been unable to get it changed from N/A programmer for years. This is not intended as an anonymous post.

I'm a Delphi fan since v.1, but I think the current plans for marketing Delphi for Linux to only the higher priced environments is a bad marketing decision. I'm sure the goal is to upsell many Pro users, but I think it will have the opposite effect..

Many of us do not use a the Embarcadero database/web technologies. For us we have Pro version. But recent blog posts have said we will not have access to the Delphi Linux compiler with the Pro tool.

I've heard from many developers on boards who've decided to cut ties to Delphi and instead go with FreePascal over the ever-increasin costs, and decisions like not supporting Linux in the Pro version.

Marco replied to me that Linux support without the Apache module would be less useful, well I think that's for me the customer to decide how I want to use it. And if you're going to bundle Android and iOS, why not linux?

Yes, we all hear how this or that will be the end of Delphi. I'm sure I'll continue to subscribe for the Pro version because I have too much Windows legacy code to support, but my Linux and thus probably Windows server needs will increasingly be handled by Free Pascal just because it supports more environments and doesn't try to force me to adopt a lot of software I don't need.

Lastly, please stop spamming us every day with offers... we're already customers, it's just annoying.

Thanks

--
Erick Engelke
Enterprise Delphi Databases Book
Using Elevate Web Builder Book
HTML5 Builder Book
http://www.erickengelke.com
Luigi Sandon

Posts: 74
Registered: 2/22/08
Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers
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  Posted: Mar 7, 2017 1:19 AM   in response to: N/A Programmer in response to: N/A Programmer
It's quite clear that RAD/Delphi/C++Builder user base isn't growing, probably it's shrinking, so they have to extract as much money as they can from actual users. The writing has been on the wall for years. Embarcadero made any attempt they could (including very silly ones like attempting to change the Pro license to forbid DB development) to force actual users to move to more expensive licenses.

It's also quite clear Embarcadero is not targeting actual Linux developers using other tools - because no one of them will spend thousands of $/€/<your currency here> for a Windows IDE able to produce some kinds of Linux executable. Again, the hope is that actual users will shell out more money in the hope of targeting Linux (now that even Microsoft is delivering Linux solutions) without having to move out their comfort zone (still, code won't be compatible between Windows and Linux - too much work for Embarcadero).

Embarcadero has no real valuable technology or feature to justify the price of the "Enterprise" SKU (they require real R&D and truly skilled people), so it simply moves what are today common features to its higher priced SKU to keep on milking customers. As long as they comply - it works.

Just, believe me, there's really no need of Delphi to develop for Linux - and moreover Delphi has still to demonstrate fully it's a viable solution to develop real applications for Linux - especially scalable server applications - it's naive focus on client applications meant that most server libraries were half-baked, slowly (or never) upgraded, and often quickly abandoned to jump on new buzzwords to fill the features matrix. Those who show good libraries could be developed, are forbidden in their marketplace... exactly the spirit of Linux.
Farshad Mohajeri

Posts: 120
Registered: 12/28/06
Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers
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  Posted: Mar 25, 2017 9:23 AM   in response to: Luigi Sandon in response to: Luigi Sandon
Luigi Sandon wrote:
It's quite clear that RAD/Delphi/C++Builder user base isn't growing, probably it's shrinking, so they have to extract as much money as they can from actual users. The writing has been on the wall for years. Embarcadero made any attempt they could (including very silly ones like attempting to change the Pro license to forbid DB development) to force actual users to move to more expensive licenses.

The user base may not be shrinking, but those who actually pay for licenses may shrink year by year. My annual SA payment in 935€ now while it was as low as 600€ a few years ago and I have no idea why they increase it each year. Such pricing policy will not work in long term. Delphi license prices change as fast as stock market.

--
Farshad Mohajeri
http://www.unigui.com
Luigi Sandon

Posts: 74
Registered: 2/22/08
Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers
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  Posted: Mar 27, 2017 1:13 AM   in response to: Farshad Mohajeri in response to: Farshad Mohajeri
The user base may not be shrinking, but those who actually pay for licenses may shrink year by year.

Despite the Tiobe Index, what actually matters are paying customers, not those using pirated copies <G>

My annual SA payment in 935€ now while it was as low as 600€ a few years ago and I have no idea why they increase it each year.

Some of that it's due to the euro less favourable change. But for those who don't need the mobile or macOS features, the price increased without any real benefit. But again the idea was to sell less requested features to everybody to justify the price increase.

Such pricing policy will not work in long term. Delphi license prices change as fast as stock market.

It does work when you got enough customers lock-in they will have little choices but bite the bullet and pay. Embarcadero is not the only one adopting such strategy, for companies like MicroFocus it does pay well, they collect "zombies" which some companies cannot replace easily.

The risk is it could send more in search of pirated copies - hence the need to increase copy protection up to the point the installation stops working even for legitimate changes. Or people sticking to old versions, hence the "amnesties" every month or so, because it looks the new upgrade policies didn't work so well.

In the long term it probably won't work, but there's no long term plan, it's just milk the customer as long as you can.
Rudy Velthuis (...


Posts: 7,688
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers
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  Posted: Mar 27, 2017 3:23 PM   in response to: Luigi Sandon in response to: Luigi Sandon
Luigi Sandon wrote:

It's quite clear that RAD/Delphi/C++Builder user base isn't growing

Is it? Do you have anything to base that claim on?

To me, that claim looks like a rather clumsy strawman.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"I have always wished that my computer would be as easy to use
as my telephone. My wish has come true. I no longer know how
to use my telephone." -- Bjarne Stroustrup
Eivind Bakkestuen


Posts: 436
Registered: 5/8/01
Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers
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  Posted: Mar 28, 2017 3:42 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
It's quite clear that RAD/Delphi/C++Builder user base isn't growing

Is it? Do you have anything to base that claim on?

Feel free to present the evidence proving the statement wrong, and at
the same time prove you're not just arguing for argument's sake.

--
Eivind Bakkestuen [NDD]
Mike Margerum

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Registered: 12/1/99
Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers
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  Posted: Mar 28, 2017 7:47 AM   in response to: Eivind Bakkestuen in response to: Eivind Bakkestuen
arguing for argument's sake.

^^^^^ always.
Jeff Overcash (...

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Registered: 9/23/99
Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers
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  Posted: Mar 28, 2017 9:12 AM   in response to: Eivind Bakkestuen in response to: Eivind Bakkestuen
Eivind Bakkestuen wrote:
It's quite clear that RAD/Delphi/C++Builder user base isn't growing
Is it? Do you have anything to base that claim on?

Feel free to present the evidence proving the statement wrong, and at
the same time prove you're not just arguing for argument's sake.

Allen Bauer and others have flat out said it has been growing since Emb bought
Delphi. People on here dismiss this even though they have zero access to these
numbers and people that did/do have said it has been growing.

--
Jeff Overcash (TeamB)
(Please do not email me directly unless asked. Thank You)
Learning is finding out what you already know. Doing is demonstrating that you
know it. Teaching is reminding others that they know it as well as you. We are
all leaners, doers, teachers. (R Bach)
Alfred Rushworth

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Registered: 1/11/02
Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers
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  Posted: Mar 28, 2017 4:58 PM   in response to: Jeff Overcash (... in response to: Jeff Overcash (...
Jeff Overcash (TeamB) wrote:
Eivind Bakkestuen wrote:
It's quite clear that RAD/Delphi/C++Builder user base isn't growing
Is it? Do you have anything to base that claim on?

Feel free to present the evidence proving the statement wrong, and at
the same time prove you're not just arguing for argument's sake.

Allen Bauer and others have flat out said it has been growing since Emb bought
Delphi.

At what point after acquisition did Allen Bauer say this, especially in relation to price increases? Links?

People on here dismiss this even though they have zero access to these
numbers and people that did/do have said it has been growing.

--
Jeff Overcash (TeamB)
(Please do not email me directly unless asked. Thank You)
Learning is finding out what you already know. Doing is demonstrating that you
know it. Teaching is reminding others that they know it as well as you. We are
all leaners, doers, teachers. (R Bach)
Joseph Mitzen

Posts: 388
Registered: 6/9/02
Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers
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  Posted: Jun 4, 2017 4:24 PM   in response to: Jeff Overcash (... in response to: Jeff Overcash (...
Jeff Overcash (TeamB) wrote:


Allen Bauer and others have flat out said it has been growing since Emb bought
Delphi.

And Donald Trump says he had no contact with Russia. And everyone says their baby/dog/whatever is the cutest in the world. There's no objective, verifiable evidence that Delphi is growing. It's an extraordinary claim that requires extraordinary evidence. I'd settle for any evidence.

People on here dismiss this even though they have zero access to these
numbers and people that did/do have said it has been growing.

Do you see how that sounds? People dismiss it because there should be signs of it in the real world. These signs don't exist. Delphi's ranking in new Github repositories fell for several years running. Here's its Stack Overflow tag trend:

https://insights.stackoverflow.com/trends?utm_source=so-owned&utm_medium=blog&utm_campaign=trends&utm_content=blog-link&utm_term=state-of-mobile&tags=delphi

Does this look like "growing"? How about the number of times people search for Delphi tutorials on Google compared to other languages?

http://pypl.github.io/PYPL.html

Whoops, that doesn't look like it's growing either.

What about job listings?

https://www.indeed.com/jobtrends/q-Delphi.html

Note: I didn't add any other languages because the disparity is so large Delphi simply becomes a line along the X axis. Wait, maybe COBOL....

https://www.indeed.com/jobtrends/q-Delphi-q-cobol.html

Oooh, that's not pretty.

Do you see the problem here? Every quantifiable measure of objective, external reality (and there are many more) contradict the claims of people with a personal financial stake in the matter that Delphi is this wonderfully successful product that's growing. Allan Bauer can say whatever he wants, there's no sign in the real world. Outsourcing your developers and raising prices will no doubt increase your profit, but that doesn't translate to real-world users.

And if we're going to consider Embarcadero a reliable source, let's talk about that "3 million users worldwide" nonsense. Here's Jetbrains' market research they paid a firm to do that includes an estimate of the number of programmers for different languages in the world:

https://blog.jetbrains.com/clion/2015/07/infographics-cpp-facts-before-clion/

Look at that 4.4 million C++ developers and 1.9 million C developers. Michael Swindell (the source for the users figure) is claiming that there are 50% more Pascal developers than C developers and that for every 4 C++ users there are 3 Pascal users. Does that remotely reflect your own real life experiences? Of course not. It certainly doesn't explain the 12 year absence of commercially published Delphi books, does it? Or fit in with the Stack Overflow data, job, data, etc. Swindell has never disclosed how he arrives at his figures, except at one point letting slip it included "an estimate for piracy", educational copies, etc. In short, he seems to be pulling them out of his you-know-what and adding half a million every year without fail. In fact, let's go further. I can dig up the links if you wish, but in Embarcadero press releases one year apart they claimed there were 2 million users and then over 3 million. That's one million more users in one year's time. If they all bought the cheapest edition, Pro, that would $1,400 * 1,000,000 or $1,400,000,000 in extra revenue in one year. The entire company sold for $600 million not long after, showing that the claim is just ridiculous. Keep in mind that EMBT paid $30 million for the CodeGear. As Luigi as noted, Wayne Williams would have been on the front page of every financial magazine in the world if he took a company in a few years from 30 million to 1.4 billion in revenue.

And it's not Swindell. The current C++ manager, David Millington, used to post on many tech sites before becoming an employee. In a post on Ars Technica, citing the Embarcadero 3 million figure, he claimed that "Delphi is as popular as Python" (3 million is a widely cited estimate for worldwide Python usage). This shows that EMBT employees, or future employees, have drunk so much Pascal Kool-Aid they won't even stop to question a claim that is beyond absurd.

We can go further back if you want. Let's go back to "Plan B", when Simon Kissel tried to convince Borland what to do with Delphi. Kissel tried to tell them that no one was using Delphi.NET and it was a lost cause that was draining resources. Nick Hodges steadfastly defended it. Kissel replied that the users of Delphi.NET mustn't be on this planet. :-) He presented forum evidence showing almost no posts. He presented Torry.net data showing almost no uploads. He presented Stack Overflow data showing almost no questions. He presented a German forum that shut down its Delphi.NET subforum due to lack of use. He presented Delphi surveys in which almost no one admitted to using Delphi.NET. Nick was unperturbed. He postulated the existence of users who never answered surveys, never posted on forums, never posted code, and never asked questions. He too referred to internal data that he couldn't disclose that proved to him that Delphi.NET was going strong.

What happened? Embarcadero bought CodeGear and their first decision was to scrap Delphi.NET. Obviously, if Nick's data ever really existed, it must have been wholly unconvincing (and probably generated by Michael Swindell). We saw the same process play out with Idera canceling AppMethod when they bought EMBT.

I won't even mention Embarcadero's now former CEO, who was sued for over a million dollars in fraud damages related to his past company. Embarcadero settled the lawsuit so quickly they didn't even file a response to the lawsuit that I could find.

Anyway, so pardon me if I don't take the personal assurance of an Embarcadero employee that Delphi's numbers are going through the ceiling. They've demonstrated time and again alternately innumeracy and gullibility. I'll look towards the real world, and the real world tells a much different story. Heck, even Anton Popov, as I posted here, said that they did not see evidence of young developers taking up Pascal. I recall people freaking out here when he referred to the "more than 10,000 Embarcadero customers" rather than 3 million. The 3 million claim also got yanked off the Embarcadero web page.

This matter is settled until someone posts actual evidence to the contrary. "An Embarcadero employee said take our word for it" isn't evidence. If so, I'll add Embarcadero Insider as evidence, who said that the real internal number is 50K-80K world wide. Heck, even Nick Hodges said here that he believes the real number is "an order of magnitude less" than the 3M number.
Rudy Velthuis (...


Posts: 7,688
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers
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  Posted: Jun 5, 2017 5:34 AM   in response to: Joseph Mitzen in response to: Joseph Mitzen
Joseph Mitzen wrote:

Jeff Overcash (TeamB) wrote:


Allen Bauer and others have flat out said it has been growing since
Emb bought Delphi.

And Donald Trump says he had no contact with Russia.

Trump is known to lie a lot. Allen isn't.
--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Save the whales! Collect the whole set!"
Rudy Velthuis (...


Posts: 7,688
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers
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  Posted: Apr 1, 2017 1:00 PM   in response to: Eivind Bakkestuen in response to: Eivind Bakkestuen
Eivind Bakkestuen wrote:

It's quite clear that RAD/Delphi/C++Builder user base isn't
growing

Is it? Do you have anything to base that claim on?

Feel free to present the evidence proving the statement wrong,

That's the wrong way around. People who make a claim have to provide
the evidence that their claim is correct.

I don't have any data on which such a claim could be based. I am pretty
sure no one else here has (except those from Embarcadero), so it is a
baseless claim.

I know that this group is known for its baseless claims, but that
doesn't make them right.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"His philosophy was a mixture of three famous schools -- the Cynics,
the Stoics and the Epicureans -- and summed up all three of them in
his famous phrase, 'You can't trust any bugger further than you can
throw him, and there's nothing you can do about it, so let's have a
drink.'"
-- Terry Pratchett (Small Gods)
Joseph Mitzen

Posts: 388
Registered: 6/9/02
Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers
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  Posted: Jun 17, 2017 1:45 PM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:

I don't have any data on which such a claim could be based.

You do; the data have been posted ad nauseum. It's also accepted wisdom, like apples fall when you drop them. To claim otherwise would be an extraordinary claim requiring extraordinary evidence.
Rudy Velthuis (...


Posts: 7,688
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers
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  Posted: Jun 17, 2017 2:33 PM   in response to: Joseph Mitzen in response to: Joseph Mitzen
Joseph Mitzen wrote:

Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:

I don't have any data on which such a claim could be based.

You do; the data have been posted ad nauseum. It's also accepted
wisdom, like apples fall when you drop them. To claim otherwise would
be an extraordinary claim requiring extraordinary evidence.



Ok, let's recap:

It's quite clear that RAD/Delphi/C++Builder user base isn't
growing

Is it? Do you have anything to base that claim on?

Feel free to present the evidence proving the statement wrong,

That's the wrong way around. People who make a claim have to provide
the evidence that their claim is correct.

I don't have any data on which such a claim could be based. I am
pretty sure no one else here has (except those from Embarcadero), so
it is a baseless claim.

I know that this group is known for its baseless claims, but that
doesn't make them right.

Again: you make a baseless claim, because there are no data that
prove your claim.

If you say it was posted ad nauseam (not: nauseum), then it should be
easy to find it and re-post it. But you can't, because the only ones
who could have such proof are Embarcadero, and they don't provide us
with such data.

So yes, you make baseless claims. Oh, you use "evidence" like the
nubmer of questions on StackOverflow, although there is no data that
proves that this actually means anything WRT your claim. Sure, other
languages have more questions, some of them and are probably more
popular too, but that doesn't prove your claim.

Again: it is a baseless claim. You have no data to go by. None
whatsoever, so you can think whatever you like, it doesn't make your
claim any better.

And no, it is not "accepted wisdom". And no, there is no need for
"extraordinary" evidence for my telling that your claim is baseless. If
you claim something, you provide the proof. And it is obvious you
can't, otherwise you would have.

So pfffft!

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Patriotism means to stand by the country. It does not mean to
stand by the president or any other public official..."
-- Theodore Roosevelt
Roy Lambert

Posts: 1,063
Registered: 8/7/01
Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers
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  Posted: Jun 17, 2017 11:24 PM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
This thread is starting to remind me of climate change "discussions"

Roy Lambert
Rudy Velthuis (...


Posts: 7,688
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers
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  Posted: Jun 18, 2017 1:42 PM   in response to: Roy Lambert in response to: Roy Lambert
Roy Lambert wrote:

This thread is starting to remind me of climate change "discussions"

These only exist in the US. <g>

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Cole's Law: Thinly sliced cabbage."
Roy Lambert

Posts: 1,063
Registered: 8/7/01
Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers
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  Posted: Jun 18, 2017 11:42 PM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy

This thread is starting to remind me of climate change "discussions"

These only exist in the US. <g>

Ah! So you've never read The Register then?

Roy Lambert
Rudy Velthuis (...


Posts: 7,688
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers
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  Posted: Jun 19, 2017 2:30 AM   in response to: Roy Lambert in response to: Roy Lambert
Roy Lambert wrote:

Rudy

This thread is starting to remind me of climate change
"discussions"

These only exist in the US. <g>

Ah! So you've never read The Register then?

Not regularly.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

Albrecht's Law: Social innovations tend to the level of minimum
tolerable well-being.
Joseph Mitzen

Posts: 388
Registered: 6/9/02
Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers
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  Posted: Jun 17, 2017 1:47 PM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:

I don't have any data on which such a claim could be based.

Of course you do. You use the most basic implementation of the scientific method:

First, ask yourself "What would the world look like if this was true?" And then "What would the world look like if this were false?" Then you look at the world and make observations and see whether they're consistent with the hypothesis or not.
Rudy Velthuis (...


Posts: 7,688
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers
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  Posted: Jun 17, 2017 2:14 PM   in response to: Joseph Mitzen in response to: Joseph Mitzen
Joseph Mitzen wrote:

Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:

I don't have any data on which such a claim could be based.

Of course you do. You use the most basic implementation of the
scientific method:

First, ask yourself "What would the world look like if this was
true?" And then "What would the world look like if this were false?"
Then you look at the world and make observations and see whether
they're consistent with the hypothesis or not.

How do you test the hypothesis? What observations? A thought experiment
like the above is not good enough.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"What sane person could live in this world and not be crazy?"
-- Ursula K. LeGuin
Rudy Velthuis (...


Posts: 7,688
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers
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  Posted: Jun 17, 2017 2:35 PM   in response to: Joseph Mitzen in response to: Joseph Mitzen
Joseph Mitzen wrote:

Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:

I don't have any data on which such a claim could be based.

Of course you do. You use the most basic implementation of the
scientific method:

First, ask yourself "What would the world look like if this was
true?" And then "What would the world look like if this were false?"
Then you look at the world and make observations and see whether
they're consistent with the hypothesis or not.

That is not the scientific method. This is: "a method of procedure that
has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in
systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the
formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses."

You can't experiment and you have no observations. You have absolutely
no secure data to go by. Just some assumptions on your part.

Again: pfffft!

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Either God wants to abolish evil, and cannot; or he can, but
does not want to. If he wants to, but cannot, he is impotent.
If he can, but does not want to, he is wicked. If, as they say,
God can abolish evil, and God really wants to do it, why is
there evil in the world?"
-- Epicurus
Luigi Sandon

Posts: 74
Registered: 2/22/08
Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers
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  Posted: Mar 28, 2017 5:00 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Is it? Do you have anything to base that claim on?

Yes. The continuous attempts to force users to buy the more expensive SKUs in any possible ways, the continuous "amnesties" to upgrade, the forced subscription - even for bug fixes, after having spent thousand of dollars - the ever increasing prices, the spamming to actual customers, blocking libraries like mORMot from their store, are a clear signs they are not selling to new customers, they are just trying to extract more money from the actual ones.

It's a common pattern for products that don't sell well, while those same policies won't help to expand the customers base, given how fashionable Pascal is today. Just, every other product (Java, PHP, Ruby, .NET) failed, and they have only one cash cow today.

Disbanding the development teams and sending all development to cheap outsourced ones looks also a confirmation the product doesn't sell well, and expenses needed to be cut deeply to keep it profitable enough.

Or do you have a different explanation for such moves? Feel free to tell us. As Embarcadero is free to disclose the real numbers.

To me, that claim looks like a rather clumsy strawman.

For groupies, the truth is always hard to swallow.
Rudy Velthuis (...


Posts: 7,688
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit]
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  Posted: Apr 1, 2017 1:05 PM   in response to: Luigi Sandon in response to: Luigi Sandon
Luigi Sandon wrote:

Is it? Do you have anything to base that claim on?

Yes. The continuous attempts to force users to buy the more expensive
SKUs

In other words: no, there is nothing to base that claim on. Of course
they are trying to make more money. That is not proof of anything.

After all, the people at BMW are also trying to sell me a bigger (or
faster, or both) model. They don't force me, of course, but neither
does Embarcadero force anyone to buy a higher SKU. They just say: if
you want this or that, you'll have to get this or that SKU.

I can get 600hp if I pay enough for it. I can't get them if I buy a
2ltr model, although the 2ltr model will get me anywhere and its trunk
is just as big (or bigger) as that of the faster models.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"You must ask your neighbor if you shall live in peace."
-- John Clark
Joseph Mitzen

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Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit]
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  Posted: Jun 17, 2017 1:59 PM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:
Luigi Sandon wrote:

In other words: no, there is nothing to base that claim on. Of course
they are trying to make more money. That is not proof of anything.

Oh come on. There is making more money and then there are desperate grabs for cash. It is proof of something.

When I used to work in logistics our company got a tip from a salesperson for a carrier. Normally stores would hold onto the wooden pallets they received deliveries on and occasionally schedule a "pallet exchange" to send them back to major vendors. He saw a store chain that bought from our client taking the pallets and selling them to another company. That's the business equivalent of looking for change between the sofa cushions. We tipped off our customer; they said they had already stopped extending credit to this store chain. In less than six months the store announced it was filing for bankruptcy.

The major ways of making more money are finding new customers for what you sell and selling more/other products to existing customers. SImply raising prices, forced attempts to move users to higher SKUs, playing games with support costs or hidden fees, etc. are not normal business management techniques. They're desperation techniques when you have a target to meet and nothing else is working.

Also, BMW is not trying to up-sell you to another vehicle. Instead, they try to produce vehicles for each price segment to get more users into their cars.
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit]
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  Posted: Jun 17, 2017 2:38 PM   in response to: Joseph Mitzen in response to: Joseph Mitzen
Joseph Mitzen wrote:

Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:
Luigi Sandon wrote:

In other words: no, there is nothing to base that claim on. Of
course they are trying to make more money. That is not proof of
anything.

Oh come on. There is making more money and then there are desperate
grabs for cash. It is proof of something.

You can claim that it is "a desperate grab for cash", but if you do
that, you'll have to prove it. You can't, so it is another baseless
claim (based on another baseless claim). Some people call that a
strawman argument.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"A distributed system is one in which the failure of a computer
you didn't even know existed can render your own computer
unusable." -- Leslie Lamport
Barry McClure

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Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers
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  Posted: May 21, 2017 9:35 PM   in response to: Luigi Sandon in response to: Luigi Sandon
Delphi will never get any kind of market share at the prices they are currently asking. It's been over 10 years since I saw a Delphi book on the shelf at the bookstore. Why? Because Delphi 7 was still affordable and this made it popular. But a higher price will always decrease the demand for software.

I'd like to see EMB break up Delphi into separate SKU's so the developer can buy what he needs:

Delphi Pro Win32 at $295
Delphi Pro Win64 at $295
Delphi Android at $295
Delphi iOS at $295
Delphi Linux at $295 to $495.

The iOS/Android versions can still generate a windows .exe for development purposes, but for it to run it needs to have the Delphi IDE running in the background.

At least with these more affordable prices, they can get started with Delphi and buy additional SKU's when they need to. This will help to make Delphi more popular.


--
Barry McClure
www.grebarsys.com

PrintDAT! component creates reports in 5 seconds

Edited by: Barry McClure on May 21, 2017 9:35 PM

Dan Barclay

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Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers
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  Posted: May 21, 2017 10:50 PM   in response to: Barry McClure in response to: Barry McClure
Barry McClure wrote:
Delphi will never get any kind of market share at the prices they are currently asking. It's been over 10 years since I saw a Delphi book on the shelf at the bookstore. Why? Because Delphi 7 was still affordable and this made it popular. But a higher price will always decrease the demand for software.

I'd like to see EMB break up Delphi into separate SKU's so the developer can buy what he needs:

Delphi Pro Win32 at $295
Delphi Pro Win64 at $295
Delphi Android at $295
Delphi iOS at $295
Delphi Linux at $295 to $495.

The iOS/Android versions can still generate a windows .exe for development purposes, but for it to run it needs to have the Delphi IDE running in the background.

At least with these more affordable prices, they can get started with Delphi and buy additional SKU's when they need to. This will help to make Delphi more popular.

I think that might help build the user base count, and that's good for a long term view.
That approach makes sense to me but I'm not sure what objectives the owners have, and that's what really counts.

Dan
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit]
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  Posted: May 22, 2017 12:18 AM   in response to: Barry McClure in response to: Barry McClure
Barry McClure wrote:

Delphi will never get any kind of market share at the prices they are
currently asking.

Delphi already **has** a considerable market share, despite the prices
they are currently asking.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Programming is one of the most difficult branches of applied
mathematics; the poorer mathematicians had better remain pure
mathematicians." -- Edsger Dijkstra
Roy Lambert

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Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit]
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  Posted: May 22, 2017 12:29 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy

Delphi will never get any kind of market share at the prices they are
currently asking.

Delphi already **has** a considerable market share, despite the prices
they are currently asking.

Is that just due to people who have already bought in and its cheaper than changing? What's the level of new users?

Just remember - there's still a LOT of COBOL out there.

Roy Lambert
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit]
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  Posted: May 22, 2017 2:43 AM   in response to: Roy Lambert in response to: Roy Lambert
Roy Lambert wrote:

Rudy

Delphi will never get any kind of market share at the prices they
are >> currently asking.

Delphi already has a considerable market share, despite the prices
they are currently asking.

Is that just due to people who have already bought in and its cheaper
than changing? What's the level of new users?

I don't know. But if I look at sites like StackOverflow, I can see
there are new users. Of course that is not enough to say how many.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"I just bought a Mac to help me design the next Cray."
-- Seymoure Cray (1925-1996) when was informed that Apple Inc.
had recently bought a Cray supercomputer to help them design
the next Mac.
Roy Lambert

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Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit]
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  Posted: May 22, 2017 4:32 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
I've had a brilliant idea.

Will all new users of Delphi who bought within the last 18 months please stand up and wave your hands so we can count you :)
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit]
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  Posted: May 22, 2017 7:21 AM   in response to: Roy Lambert in response to: Roy Lambert
Roy Lambert wrote:

I've had a brilliant idea.

Will all new users of Delphi who bought within the last 18 months
please stand up and wave your hands so we can count you :)

Funny, but seriously though: I doubt many visit these forums. They
probably visit the sligthly more fancy looking Community forums,
probably not even knowing about NNTP.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Probably no nation is rich enough to pay for both war and
education."
-- Braham Flexner
Markus Humm

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Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit]
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  Posted: May 22, 2017 1:39 PM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Am 22.05.2017 um 16:21 schrieb Rudy Velthuis (TeamB):
Roy Lambert wrote:

I've had a brilliant idea.

Will all new users of Delphi who bought within the last 18 months
please stand up and wave your hands so we can count you :)

Funny, but seriously though: I doubt many visit these forums. They
probably visit the sligthly more fancy looking Community forums,
probably not even knowing about NNTP.

Yes, but it would be nice if we could get rid of these not too well
structured new forums and make these here prominent in the same place.

Maybe the design has to be revisited a little bit, but the functionality
mostly beets the other one.

Greetings

Markus
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit]
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  Posted: May 30, 2017 10:32 AM   in response to: Markus Humm in response to: Markus Humm
Markus Humm wrote:

Maybe the design has to be revisited a little bit, but the
functionality mostly beets the other one.

Beets! I luuurv red beets with diced onions.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"I would have made a good Pope." -- Richard Nixon.
John Furlong

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Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit]
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  Posted: May 30, 2017 10:49 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
On 5/30/2017 1:32 PM, Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:
Markus Humm wrote:

Maybe the design has to be revisited a little bit, but the
functionality mostly beets the other one.

Beets! I luuurv red beets with diced onions.
Beets! You are one sick puppy Rudy ;-)
Markus Humm

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Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit]
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  Posted: May 30, 2017 1:37 PM   in response to: John Furlong in response to: John Furlong
Am 30.05.2017 um 19:49 schrieb John Furlong:
On 5/30/2017 1:32 PM, Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:
Markus Humm wrote:

Maybe the design has to be revisited a little bit, but the
functionality mostly beets the other one.

Beets! I luuurv red beets with diced onions.
Beets! You are one sick puppy Rudy ;-)

Yes he is. But don't dare to nit pick on him! ;-)
I meant of course "beats".

Greatings

markus
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit]
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  Posted: May 31, 2017 6:11 AM   in response to: John Furlong in response to: John Furlong
John Furlong wrote:

On 5/30/2017 1:32 PM, Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:
Markus Humm wrote:

Maybe the design has to be revisited a little bit, but the
functionality mostly beets the other one.

Beets! I luuurv red beets with diced onions.
Beets! You are one sick puppy Rudy ;-)

Why? Beets are good for you. <g>

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Lisp isn't a language, it's a building material." -- Alan Kay.
John Furlong

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Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit]
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  Posted: May 31, 2017 6:43 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
On 5/31/2017 9:11 AM, Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:
John Furlong wrote:

On 5/30/2017 1:32 PM, Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:
Markus Humm wrote:

Maybe the design has to be revisited a little bit, but the
functionality mostly beets the other one.

Beets! I luuurv red beets with diced onions.
Beets! You are one sick puppy Rudy ;-)

Why? Beets are good for you. <g>

Well, a root canal might be good for you too, but you don't have to like
it <gd&r>

As you might have guessed, I can't stand beets, mind you, they are way
better than broccoli - but lets not go there <g>

J.
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit]
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  Posted: May 31, 2017 6:58 AM   in response to: John Furlong in response to: John Furlong
John Furlong wrote:

Beets! I luuurv red beets with diced onions.
Beets! You are one sick puppy Rudy ;-)

Why? Beets are good for you. <g>

Well, a root canal might be good for you too, but you don't have to
like it <gd&r>

Indeed, indeed.

As you might have guessed, I can't stand beets, mind you, they are
way better than broccoli - but lets not go there <g>

I don't like broccoli either. So I get what you mean. <g>

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Gravity cannot be held responsible for people falling in love."
-- Albert Einstein

Roy Lambert

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Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit]
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  Posted: May 31, 2017 8:12 AM   in response to: John Furlong in response to: John Furlong
John

As you might have guessed, I can't stand beets, mind you, they are way
better than broccoli - but lets not go there <g>

I really like cauliflower & broccoli slim-a-soup but its vanished from the market :(

Roy
..
Jan Martin Pett...

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Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit]
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  Posted: May 23, 2017 4:43 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:
Roy Lambert wrote:

I've had a brilliant idea.

Will all new users of Delphi who bought within the last 18 months
please stand up and wave your hands so we can count you :)

Funny, but seriously though: I doubt many visit these forums. They
probably visit the sligthly more fancy looking Community forums,
probably not even knowing about NNTP.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

By "fancy looking" you mean https://community.embarcadero.com/forum ?
I wonder what they were thinking when they made that one.

At least these forums are categorized according to languages and whatnot, while
that one isn't..and seems to be mostly c++.
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit]
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  Posted: May 25, 2017 3:59 AM   in response to: Jan Martin Pett... in response to: Jan Martin Pett...
Jan Martin Pettersen wrote:

Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:
Roy Lambert wrote:

I've had a brilliant idea.

Will all new users of Delphi who bought within the last 18 months
please stand up and wave your hands so we can count you :)

Funny, but seriously though: I doubt many visit these forums. They
probably visit the sligthly more fancy looking Community forums,
probably not even knowing about NNTP.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

By "fancy looking" you mean https://community.embarcadero.com/forum ?
I wonder what they were thinking when they made that one.

I don't like them, but ISTM that is what most new users will see
first. And they look lsightly more fancy than these groups.

Anyway, NNTP is my choice.
--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Chaos Theory is a new theory invented by scientists panicked
by the thought that the public were beginning to understand
the old ones." -- Mike Barfield.
Roy Lambert

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Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit]
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  Posted: May 25, 2017 4:59 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy

Anyway, NNTP is my choice.

Whatever the maximum percentage is I'm allowed to agree by I do!

Roy
Quentin Correll


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Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit]
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  Posted: May 25, 2017 10:42 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy,

| Anyway, NNTP is my choice.

And the only logical choice in my mind!!!

--

Q -- XanaNews 1.19.1.372 - 2017-05-25 10:42:05
Arthur Hoornweg

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Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit]
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  Posted: May 31, 2017 12:59 AM   in response to: Jan Martin Pett... in response to: Jan Martin Pett...
Jan Martin Pettersen wrote:

By "fancy looking" you mean https://community.embarcadero.com/forum ?
I wonder what they were thinking when they made that one.

It seems to me that they carefully omitted creating any sub-forums where users could express their opinions. It's all technology-only.

Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit]
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  Posted: May 31, 2017 6:13 AM   in response to: Arthur Hoornweg in response to: Arthur Hoornweg
Arthur Hoornweg wrote:

Jan Martin Pettersen wrote:

By "fancy looking" you mean https://community.embarcadero.com/forum
? I wonder what they were thinking when they made that one.

It seems to me that they carefully omitted creating any sub-forums
where users could express their opinions. It's all technology-only.


You mean that there is nothing like .delphi.non-technical or even
.off-topic? Well yes, it is meant to be purely technical.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"A blind bloke walks into a shop with a guide dog. He picks the
Dog up and starts swinging it around his head. Alarmed, a shop
assistant calls out: 'Can I help, sir?' 'No thanks,' says the
blind bloke. 'Just looking.'" -- Tommy Cooper
Markus Humm

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Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit]
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  Posted: May 22, 2017 1:38 PM   in response to: Roy Lambert in response to: Roy Lambert
Am 22.05.2017 um 13:32 schrieb Roy Lambert:
I've had a brilliant idea.

Will all new users of Delphi who bought within the last 18 months please stand up and wave your hands so we can count you :)

Nice idea. But another thing helping to get new users was, that the
Embarcadero people were finally able to convince Idera management
(that's what we've been told on a roadshow even last week in Germany) to
release a free starter version. Yes it has some restrictions, but even
the control software for the world's bigges model train located in
Hamburg can be compiled with this free version!

And I'm sure it's no small application. Just no database usage as it seems.

Greetings

Markus
Roy Lambert

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Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit]
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  Posted: May 23, 2017 2:42 AM   in response to: Markus Humm in response to: Markus Humm
Markus

Nice idea. But another thing helping to get new users was, that the
Embarcadero people were finally able to convince Idera management
(that's what we've been told on a roadshow even last week in Germany) to
release a free starter version. Yes it has some restrictions, but even
the control software for the world's bigges model train located in
Hamburg can be compiled with this free version!

And I'm sure it's no small application. Just no database usage as it seems.

A starter edition is a brilliant idea, and yes it shouldn't have all the bells and whistles of a "proper" edition but if its crippled to much it becomes a mechanism to not look at Delphi rather than encouraging people in.

Roy Lambert
Markus Humm

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Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit]
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  Posted: May 23, 2017 9:04 AM   in response to: Roy Lambert in response to: Roy Lambert
Am 23.05.2017 um 11:42 schrieb Roy Lambert:
Markus

Nice idea. But another thing helping to get new users was, that the
Embarcadero people were finally able to convince Idera management
(that's what we've been told on a roadshow even last week in Germany) to
release a free starter version. Yes it has some restrictions, but even
the control software for the world's bigges model train located in
Hamburg can be compiled with this free version!

And I'm sure it's no small application. Just no database usage as it seems.

A starter edition is a brilliant idea, and yes it shouldn't have all the bells and whistles of a "proper" edition but if its crippled to much it becomes a mechanism to not look at Delphi rather than encouraging people in.

Roy Lambert

Hello,

I was just trying to tell you that it is npt too crippled to be
worthless! Besides of the starter edition they also do more for the
education market now.

Greetings

Markus
Roy Lambert

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Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit]
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  Posted: May 23, 2017 11:06 PM   in response to: Markus Humm in response to: Markus Humm
Markus

I was just trying to tell you that it is npt too crippled to be
worthless! Besides of the starter edition they also do more for the
education market now.

Worthless - hmm - lets say I want to have a look and see how delphi will compare to my SQLite and C++ application - how do I do it?

Please give costs of the cheapest way to do this.

Roy Lambert

Markus Humm

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Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit]
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  Posted: May 24, 2017 9:27 AM   in response to: Roy Lambert in response to: Roy Lambert
Am 24.05.2017 um 08:06 schrieb Roy Lambert:
Markus

I was just trying to tell you that it is npt too crippled to be
worthless! Besides of the starter edition they also do more for the
education market now.

Worthless - hmm - lets say I want to have a look and see how delphi will compare to my SQLite and C++ application - how do I do it?

Please give costs of the cheapest way to do this.


Hello,

please inform us how one can offer a free product with a feature set
where nobody claims that anything needed is missing and which still
doesn't hurt the income stream of the apaid products.

And if you're after such a comparison the Starter Edition is the wrong
product for you anyway! The right one in this case is the trial version!
Euns for 30 days and when you politely ask sales (we got informed on the
roadshow that it's possible) they can extend your key to 60 days or
maybe even 90 days (or issue a special one lasting so long) when they
get the impression you need that time for proper evaluation.

=> where's your problem?

Greetings

Markus
Dan Barclay

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Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit]
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  Posted: May 24, 2017 4:44 PM   in response to: Markus Humm in response to: Markus Humm
Markus Humm wrote:
Am 24.05.2017 um 08:06 schrieb Roy Lambert:
Markus

I was just trying to tell you that it is npt too crippled to be
worthless! Besides of the starter edition they also do more for the
education market now.

Worthless - hmm - lets say I want to have a look and see how delphi will compare to my SQLite and C++ application - how do I do it?

Please give costs of the cheapest way to do this.


Hello,

please inform us how one can offer a free product with a feature set
where nobody claims that anything needed is missing and which still
doesn't hurt the income stream of the apaid products.

And if you're after such a comparison the Starter Edition is the wrong
product for you anyway! The right one in this case is the trial version!
Euns for 30 days and when you politely ask sales (we got informed on the
roadshow that it's possible) they can extend your key to 60 days or
maybe even 90 days (or issue a special one lasting so long) when they
get the impression you need that time for proper evaluation.

=> where's your problem?

I won't offer some other option, other than the pricing change someone else pointed out, but it should be clear that the Trial Version is only of use to someone who already knows Delphi and wants a trial of a later version.

I, personally, have never met anyone that I thought could become proficient enough with Delphi to make longer term development decisions in 30, 60, or even 90 days. YMMV.

Dan
Roy Lambert

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Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit]
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  Posted: May 25, 2017 1:46 AM   in response to: Dan Barclay in response to: Dan Barclay
Dan

I, personally, have never met anyone that I thought could become proficient enough with Delphi to make longer term development decisions in 30, 60, or even 90 days. YMMV.

I had been using AP/DOS, looked at Access (really couldn't understand the IDE) and bought D1 without any evaluation - not a lot of choice back then <G>

Roy Lambert

ps I do agree with you. I'd say it took me six months or so before I became happy.

Dan Barclay

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Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit]
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  Posted: May 25, 2017 3:08 PM   in response to: Roy Lambert in response to: Roy Lambert
Roy Lambert wrote:
Dan

I, personally, have never met anyone that I thought could become proficient enough with Delphi to make longer term development decisions in 30, 60, or even 90 days. YMMV.

I had been using AP/DOS, looked at Access (really couldn't understand the IDE) and bought D1 without any evaluation - not a lot of choice back then <G>

Roy Lambert

ps I do agree with you. I'd say it took me six months or so before I became happy.


I'm guessing you probably wouldn't have done that at more than 2 kilobucks. I would not have.

Yes, and even though Delphi is more like VB than users on either side of the issue would admit, it took me a while to get really comfortable. I threw away a box of Kylix from under my desk only a few months ago. I got it "just because I wanted to look at it".

Dan
Roy Lambert

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Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit]
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  Posted: May 26, 2017 12:10 AM   in response to: Dan Barclay in response to: Dan Barclay
Dan

I'm guessing you probably wouldn't have done that at more than 2 kilobucks. I would not have.

Nope - but maybe with inflation and all that was the cost back then. I may just go and have a rootle around the physical archives to see if I can find out the cost. Had a look on Google but not found yet

Roy
Roy Lambert

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Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit]
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  Posted: May 26, 2017 11:28 PM   in response to: Roy Lambert in response to: Roy Lambert
Found this

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=wT4EAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA97&lpg=PA97&dq=%22delphi+1%22+price&source=bl&ots=e7BAIK4oak&sig=hdM7oVcHu82rbv6YZ7j8FKfmLpE&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiQiubhtI3UAhUjOsAKHXF1B9oQ6AEIZzAJ#v=onepage&q=%22delphi%201%22%20price&f=false

InfoWorld 1996 (page 95 on my PC) - estimated street price for Delphi Client Server edition 2.0 $1,999.95

so I'd guess that's the enterprise edition these days which retails c$3,700

Roy Lambert

Jeff Overcash (...

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Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit]
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  Posted: May 27, 2017 4:59 PM   in response to: Roy Lambert in response to: Roy Lambert
Roy Lambert wrote:
Found this

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=wT4EAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA97&lpg=PA97&dq=%22delphi+1%22+price&source=bl&ots=e7BAIK4oak&sig=hdM7oVcHu82rbv6YZ7j8FKfmLpE&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiQiubhtI3UAhUjOsAKHXF1B9oQ6AEIZzAJ#v=onepage&q=%22delphi%201%22%20price&f=false

InfoWorld 1996 (page 95 on my PC) - estimated street price for Delphi Client Server edition 2.0 $1,999.95

so I'd guess that's the enterprise edition these days which retails c$3,700

Roy Lambert


Remember though you have 20+ years of inflation (everything including salaries
has gone up because of inflation). If you took that 1,999.95 and adjusted it
for inflation that is the equivalent of $3,116.86 in 2017. So the price has
gone up, but not by as much as it looks if you do not consider inflation. In
1996 dollars Tokyo would have cost 2,374.12 which is ~18% increase.

It isn't out of line with other things like say cars. In 1996 average car price
was 16,300 (24,933 in 2016 dollars). April of 2016 it was 33,666 or an increase
of ~50%.

Homes also show more than 50% increase after adjusting for inflation in cost
over that time period. Most things without gov subsidization (like food)
increase by > the rate of inflation over a 20 year period.

--
Jeff Overcash (TeamB)
(Please do not email me directly unless asked. Thank You)
Learning is finding out what you already know. Doing is demonstrating that you
know it. Teaching is reminding others that they know it as well as you. We are
all leaners, doers, teachers. (R Bach)
Roy Lambert

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Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit]
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  Posted: May 28, 2017 12:36 AM   in response to: Jeff Overcash (... in response to: Jeff Overcash (...
Jeff

Remember though you have 20+ years of inflation (everything including salaries
has gone up because of inflation). If you took that 1,999.95 and adjusted it
for inflation that is the equivalent of $3,116.86 in 2017. So the price has
gone up, but not by as much as it looks if you do not consider inflation. In
1996 dollars Tokyo would have cost 2,374.12 which is ~18% increase.

Didn't need to remember - I'd already figured that out, as I'm sure most readers of this forum would have done.

It isn't out of line with other things like say cars. In 1996 average car price
was 16,300 (24,933 in 2016 dollars). April of 2016 it was 33,666 or an increase
of ~50%.

Homes also show more than 50% increase after adjusting for inflation in cost
over that time period. Most things without gov subsidization (like food)
increase by > the rate of inflation over a 20 year period.

Nice piece of cherry picking. Over in the blue corner we have (again easy cherry picking)

electronics (most of them, and probably made in China) my first flat screen TV cost £3,500 in 2004 - I've just replaced it with a better one costing £499. Pretty sure the government weren't subsidising that.
clothing (often made in China, India etc)

From the dreaded Wikipedia

<<In economics, inflation is a sustained increase in the general price level of goods and services in an economy over a period of time>>

so if you take taxes as a part of services then your statement

Most things without gov subsidization (like food)
increase by > the rate of inflation over a 20 year period.

seems a bit like an unstructured GOTO

I was making the point that Delphi was bloody expensive back then and its (even more) bloody expensive now. One of the main differences I think is the new upgrade regime. Back then I could upgrade from say D1 to D4 without having had to buy D2 or D3 or any support or upgrade contract. Now to upgrade to XEn I have to have bought XEn-x (not sure of the value of x - may be 1 or more)

Roy Lambert
Markus Humm

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Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit]
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  Posted: May 28, 2017 12:46 PM   in response to: Roy Lambert in response to: Roy Lambert
Am 28.05.2017 um 09:36 schrieb Roy Lambert:
Jeff

Remember though you have 20+ years of inflation (everything including salaries
has gone up because of inflation). If you took that 1,999.95 and adjusted it
for inflation that is the equivalent of $3,116.86 in 2017. So the price has
gone up, but not by as much as it looks if you do not consider inflation. In
1996 dollars Tokyo would have cost 2,374.12 which is ~18% increase.

Didn't need to remember - I'd already figured that out, as I'm sure most readers of this forum would have done.

It isn't out of line with other things like say cars. In 1996 average car price
was 16,300 (24,933 in 2016 dollars). April of 2016 it was 33,666 or an increase
of ~50%.

Homes also show more than 50% increase after adjusting for inflation in cost
over that time period. Most things without gov subsidization (like food)
increase by > the rate of inflation over a 20 year period.

Nice piece of cherry picking. Over in the blue corner we have (again easy cherry picking)

electronics (most of them, and probably made in China) my first flat screen TV cost £3,500 in 2004 - I've just replaced it with a better one costing £499. Pretty sure the government weren't subsidising that.
clothing (often made in China, India etc)


The analogy doesn't cut completely.
These electronic devices get cheaper because manufacturing processes got
better and thus yield of the components is higher. That's at least part
of it. But did software development really get that much better to
require less work? Or isn't the need to support more platforms and to
include more stuff in RTL, VCL and FMX a cost driver as well?

Greetings

Markus
Roy Lambert

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Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit]
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  Posted: May 28, 2017 11:33 PM   in response to: Markus Humm in response to: Markus Humm
Markus

The analogy doesn't cut completely.
These electronic devices get cheaper because manufacturing processes got
better and thus yield of the components is higher. That's at least part
of it. But did software development really get that much better to
require less work? Or isn't the need to support more platforms and to
include more stuff in RTL, VCL and FMX a cost driver as well?

Its as good as houses and cars.

But surely they should be using the pervious version of Delphi with all its vast productivity improvements to produce the next version thus resulting in huge cost savings. Shouldn't they?

Roy
Joseph Mitzen

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Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit]
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  Posted: May 28, 2017 4:13 PM   in response to: Roy Lambert in response to: Roy Lambert
Roy Lambert wrote:

Nice piece of cherry picking. Over in the blue corner we have (again easy cherry picking)

electronics (most of them, and probably made in China) my first flat screen TV cost £3,500 in 2004 - I've just replaced it with a better one costing £499. Pretty sure the government weren't subsidising that.
clothing (often made in China, India etc)

This comparison between Delphi versions, while obvious, probably isn't the right one we should be making. I once worked for a major retailer. Let's say the average rate of freight arriving damaged to stores was 2%. They considered any product with a rate less than 2% to be acceptable then. My problem was that not all freight was equal. Steel garbage cans, for instance, probably didn't get damaged in transit as often as glassware. I'd found a category field in our product database and decided to compare products within the same category. For example, the overall average might be 2% and product X might be 1.5%, but products in the same category might be averaging 1% damage, meaning that 1.5% was actually significant. I was able to identify several high (and a few low) anomalies this way, indicating vendors that needed to be visited to determine what they were doing wrong (or right).

In our case, it might be wise to look at the price of competitors to Delphi and how their prices have changed. Delphi isn't in the television market or the housing market; it's in the development tools market and its price should track that market.

Let's look at Visual Studio 97 as an example. Its price was $999 for the Professional Edition and $1499 for the Enterprise Edition. It was already cheaper than Delphi Client/Server. Now let's fast forward to 2017.

Visual Studio Professional Edition has dropped in price to $499! It's also free for individuals and up to five copies for companies making less than one million dollars a year. It also offers far more than Delphi Enterprise - C++, C#, Javascript/Typescript/ASP.NET, F#, VB.NET, Python, R, Xamarin, Unity Game Engine, as well as profiling and other tools. This leaves the Enterprise Edition of VS in another category entirely, as it includes everything from Team Foundation Server to testing versions of most of MS' software and training courses. In short, it's really for the enterprise. Even that can be had as a cloud subscription for $2,999 per user.

Turbo Pascal 1.0 was $49.99 in November 1983. That's $120.69 as of April 2017. You needed another $100 to be able to distribute binaries; that's $362.32 total today. A personal copy of one of JetBrains' single language IDEs (that can be used for commercial development) is $89. For businesses, the cost rises to $199. A personal subscription for all of JetBrains' IDEs costs only $249 the first year for an individual and $649 for businesses. This excludes discounts for startups and the available monthly payment plans. In essence, JetBrains' products are cheaper today than Turbo Pascal was in 1983. However, the value of Turbo Pascal was greater in 1983 precisely because the other compilers on the market were so much more expensive, which brings us back to my original point about comparisons. Pascal has done a 180 - it's gone from being an enormous value leader in 1983 to the trailer in value by far for development tools in 2017.

Why is Visual Studio cheaper today? (No, it has nothing to do with revenue from Windows; Windows actually accounts for a relatively small portion of MS' profits today). It's cheaper because it needs to be cheaper. There is more commercial competition, but the biggest single cause is the rise of open source. MS is forced to compete with free and with open source products that can match or surpass its own in quality (e.g. Linux, git, etc.).

Let's look at databases. Today, Oracle, DB2, and SQL Server all come in free "Express" editions. The Express edition of DB2 is the most interesting, While limited to using 2 cores, it can use up to 16GB of RAM and its database storage limit is 15TB! Why are these free versions available? One word - MySQL. Small and medium size businesses simply can't afford the price of Oracle or DB2 and were turning to open source in droves. Once they started using it or switched, they were unlikely to come back. The Express versions are attempts to lock them into the respective ecosystems before they're lost.

JetBrains offers its issue tracking software for 10 users for free, its code review software free for 10 users, and its continuous integration software free for 20 build configurations/3 build agents. Why? For companies up to ten developers, the open source option is a no-brainer. If they use the free edition, one of two things will happen. If they grow in size, they'll most likely want to stick with the product they know and become paying customers. If they don't grow, they were never going to buy the product in the first place. However, they will contribute to the ecosystem, help on Stack Overflow, recommend the product, count towards user numbers, and potentially move on to larger companies where they'll recommend JetBrains products to management.

Similarly, Plastic SCM is free for individuals (as well as open source developers and non-profits). They're also hoping to expose more people to their products.

Let me give a very interesting example. Machine learning, genetic programming and neural networks are big interests of mine. There is a software product called Discipulus that I used to lust after way back in the day. It could output its genetic programs in several languages - including Delphi code. However, for all features the price used to run as high as $4995! Proof: https://web.archive.org/web/20100420222251/https://www.rmltech.com/compare.aspx Over time, many open source genetic programming libraries appeared for a variety of languages and Discipulus began to look much less impressive. Let's look at the price of the software today: https://www.rmltech.com/compare.aspx That Enterprise+ edition has dropped in price to $395!!! That's because Discipulus has to compete with free, and the free software is very, very good (often better than commercial in this case since "ivory tower" research from leading universities are often finding their way directly into open source machine learning libraries via the researchers themselves). Welcome to the Golden Age Of Open Source.

Redmonk's "The Difficulty Of Selling Software" ("It may not be literally true... that you can’t charge for software anymore. But it’s certainly getting harder for Oracle. And if it’s getting harder for Oracle, which has a technically excellent flagship product, it’s very likely getting harder for all of the other enterprise vendors out there .... Consumer software, enterprise software: it doesn’t much matter. It’s all worth less than it was. If you’re not adapting your models to that new reality, you should be.") and Jeff Atwood's "We Don't Use Software That Costs Money Here" (" The competitive pressure of free products on commercial tools intensifies every year. It's relentless. And to be honest, I feel many of the commercial alternatives aren't evolving fast enough to stay ahead of their free competition. The onus is on the commercial tool vendors to prove that they provide enough value to warrant spending money. ") make very good reads.

http://redmonk.com/sogrady/2013/11/21/selling-software/

https://blog.codinghorror.com/we-dont-use-software-that-costs-money-here/

Some other interesting quotes:

"We're in the age of open source, where every activity depends on open source software and every decision about new software has to explain why it's not open source if that's the case. " - Simon Phipps

"Separately, but simultaneously, there's been a stunning and irreversible trend in enterprise infrastructure. If you're operating a data center, you're almost certainly using an open source operating system, database, middleware and other plumbing. No dominant platform-level software infrastructure has emerged in the last ten years in closed-source, proprietary form.

"This is despite huge investment and tremendous efforts by traditional closed-source vendors to hold back the IP tide. Microsoft famously declared open source a cancer in 2001; in 2013, you can run Linux instead of Windows on Microsoft's cloud offering, Azure. VMware, one of my favorite product-driven companies, was the only player worth mentioning with virtualization in 2002; today, open source alternatives like KVM, Xen, CloudStack and Eucalyptus have forced VMware to give server virtualization away for free, and to find its revenues elsewhere." - Mike Olson, founder, Cloudera

"The ultimate point... is that today you no longer need to be as brilliant as John Carmack to achieve success.... Where John was sitting in a cubicle by himself in Mesquite, Texas for 80 hours a week painstakingly inventing all this stuff from first principles, on hardware that was barely capable, you have a supercomputer in your pocket, another supercomputer on your desk, and two dozen open source frameworks and libraries that can do 90% of the work for you. You have GitHub, Wikipedia, Stack Overflow, and the whole of the Internet.

"All you have to do is get off your butt and use them." - Jeff Atwood

No amount of accounting tricks accounts for the changes in this brave new world we're in, where a 14-year-old can pop a flash drive into a laptop, have Arch Linux installed in 15 minutes and then in a few more have every programming language and its corresponding IDE at their fingertips. Distributed version control, continuous build integration, testing frameworks, cross-platform frameworks and relational databases too. Paying three times what I paid for my entire desktop for Delphi Enterprise is as much an anachronism as zip drives and dial-up Internet today. Michael Thuma called it a "Big Iron" income model, a wonderfully appropriate term that captures the degree to which it is obsolete. The existential question for Embarcadero is whether they could capture new users at any price today or whether young developers would simply see a legacy language with a legacy pricing model and legacy DRM running on a legacy desktop OS (Stack Overflow's 2016 poll results show 48% develop on OS X or Linux - "If OS adoption rates hold steady, by next year's survey fewer than 50% of developers may be using Windows").

Edited by: Joseph Mitzen on May 28, 2017 4:15 PM

Edited by: Joseph Mitzen on May 28, 2017 4:19 PM
Roy Lambert

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Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit] [Edit]
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  Posted: May 28, 2017 11:40 PM   in response to: Joseph Mitzen in response to: Joseph Mitzen
Joseph

Brilliant post. I don't agree 100% with it but in general terms I think you're right. I especially liked the bit about the size of the company being important and VS "going commercial" at $1m t/o

Roy Lambert

Mike Margerum

Posts: 583
Registered: 12/1/99
Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit] [Edit]
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  Posted: May 29, 2017 3:52 PM   in response to: Joseph Mitzen in response to: Joseph Mitzen
You have postgres for the DB, GO/Node/ASP.net core/java as free option
for the web stack.

But, the one thing that seems to be missing from the open source stack
is a refined, production grade front end toolkit web or cross platform
desktop UI.

I subscribed to the Kendo library from progress and its almost as much
as my Delphi SA just for the front end JS code. I wont be renewing
because they hitched their wagon to Angular 2 which I think was a mistake.

I'm going with Vue.js for my front end SPA network and the demos for
this UI toolkit look good:

http://element.eleme.io

I just cant see continuing with anything closed source at this point.
Rudy Velthuis (...


Posts: 7,688
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit] [Edit]
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  Posted: May 30, 2017 11:27 AM   in response to: Joseph Mitzen in response to: Joseph Mitzen
Joseph Mitzen wrote:

Roy Lambert wrote:

Nice piece of cherry picking. Over in the blue corner we have
(again easy cherry picking)

electronics (most of them, and probably made in China) my first
flat screen TV cost £3,500 in 2004 - I've just replaced it with a
better one costing £499. Pretty sure the government weren't
subsidising that. clothing (often made in China, India etc)

This comparison between Delphi versions, while obvious, probably
isn't the right one we should be making. I once worked for a major
retailer. Let's say the average rate of freight arriving damaged to
stores was 2%. They considered any product with a rate less than 2%
to be acceptable then. My problem was that not all freight was equal.
Steel garbage cans, for instance, probably didn't get damaged in
transit as often as glassware. I'd found a category field in our
product database and decided to compare pr oducts within the same
category. For example, the overall average might be 2% and product X
might be 1.5%, but products in the same category might be averaging
1% damage, meaning that 1.5% was actually significant. I was able to
identify several high (and a few low) anomalies this way, indicating
vendors that needed to be visited to determine what they were doing
wrong (or right).

In our case, it might be wise to look at the price of competitors to
Delphi and how their prices have changed. Delphi isn't in the
television market or the housing market; it's in the development
tools market and its price should track that market.

Indeed. But sometimes, people still buy the more expensive product
because it offers something the other ones don't. That is why many
people buy Apple products. They don't have to be technically superior
to their competition (and sometimes they aren't), but they offer great
quality and this extremely consistent and intuitive look and feel,
something which Android etc. don't offer. Many people don't care and
rather buy an Android (cheaper, faster, rounded glass, or whatever cool
features they like), but some do. That is why Apple still has a
considerable market share, even if they are not necessarily market
leaders. And Apple is extremely "proprietary".

Delphi (and only Delphi) offers, well, Delphi, the language. That is,
IMO, still the main attraction. It is still, IMO again, the best
general programming language, since it is extremely easy to turn any
kind of problem description into working code. It is perhaps not the
fastest, not the one with most features, but it allows you to turn what
you have in your head into code in an extremely easy and fast way.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"From the moment I picked your book up until I laid it down I
was convulsed with laughter. Some day I intend reading it."
-- Groucho Marx (1895-1977)
Quentin Correll


Posts: 2,409
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Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit] [Edit]
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  Posted: May 30, 2017 11:36 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy,

| ...Delphi... It is still, IMO again, the best general programming
language,

That's also my opinion. Has been for many years now.

--

Q -- XanaNews 1.19.1.372 - 2017-05-30 11:33:50
Van Swofford

Posts: 391
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Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit] [Edit]
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  Posted: May 30, 2017 7:22 PM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:

Indeed. But sometimes, people still buy the more expensive product
because it offers something the other ones don't. That is why many
people buy Apple products. They don't have to be technically superior
to their competition (and sometimes they aren't), but they offer great
quality and this extremely consistent and intuitive look and feel,
something which Android etc. don't offer. Many people don't care and
rather buy an Android (cheaper, faster, rounded glass, or whatever
cool features they like), but some do. That is why Apple still has a
considerable market share, even if they are not necessarily market
leaders. And Apple is extremely "proprietary".

Delphi (and only Delphi) offers, well, Delphi, the language. That is,
IMO, still the main attraction. It is still, IMO again, the best
general programming language, since it is extremely easy to turn any
kind of problem description into working code. It is perhaps not the
fastest, not the one with most features, but it allows you to turn
what you have in your head into code in an extremely easy and fast
way.

Exactly. And that's something that I consider to be worth paying for.

--
Cheers,
Van

"Good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad
judgment." - Will Rogers
Joseph Mitzen

Posts: 388
Registered: 6/9/02
Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit] [Edit]
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  Posted: Jun 4, 2017 3:02 PM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:

Indeed. But sometimes, people still buy the more expensive product
because it offers something the other ones don't. That is why many
people buy Apple products. They don't have to be technically superior
to their competition (and sometimes they aren't), but they offer great
quality and this extremely consistent and intuitive look and feel,
something which Android etc. don't offer.

Certainly true, but I don't think in this case Delphi counts as being a luxury item or has trendy brand appeal.


Delphi (and only Delphi) offers, well, Delphi, the language. That is,
IMO, still the main attraction. It is still, IMO again, the best
general programming language, since it is extremely easy to turn any
kind of problem description into working code.

Extremely easy compared to what exactly? In 1995 it was amazing compared to the mainstream solution of C++ and MFC. The VCL dispensed with having to keep track of window handles, dispatch pointless Windows messages, manually repaint controls when restoring a window and so much other housekeeping that was necessary in 1995. Back then people used separate tools to mock up an interface then re-implemented it for production code. Delphi's visual designer let the same tool be used to mock up and develop code without a rewrite. It was an exponential leap in productivity.

Obviously those same types of problems don't exist today so what Delphi makes easier must be different. You're stating that Delphi makes it extremely easy to turn any problem description into working code. Easier than Swift? Easier than Ruby? Easier than Python? Easier than Go?


It is perhaps not the
fastest, not the one with most features, but it allows you to turn what
you have in your head into code in an extremely easy and fast way.

But the features it lacks - type inference, tuples, automatic memory management on the desktop, the ability to define variables and functions anywhere, generics that work with numbers and first class functions, a lack of forward declarations, a power symbol, tuple unpacking, list comprehensions, slice notation, multi-line strings (or even an IDE that can handle strings > 255 characters, a lack of functionality shared with Lazarus), real sets, lambdas, etc. - are the things that make turning ideas into code extremely fast and easy. What you see in Delphi is a lot of excess scaffolding and housekeeping.

For instance, take this article....

http://preshing.com/20141202/cpp-has-become-more-pythonic/

Out of all the features listed, Delphi has two of them - range-based for loops and parameter packs - although both come with significant limitations. Python, C#, D and Oxygene have all of them. In fact, Oxygene has a large list of features not present in Delphi and is significantly cheaper, which would suggest it would be even better (and a bargain) at turning ideas into code quickly. This is without getting into the significant lack of open source libraries for Delphi (other major languages having 6X, 10X or more the number) and the difficulty of getting Delphi to interoperate with libraries from other languages.

I'm curious what some examples would look like of Delphi being able to turn ideas into code faster than other (modern) languages. I mean, it's less complex than C++ and less verbose than Java, but so are everything else. Embarcadero has declined to ever compare Delphi to another language in any of their promotional material since buying CodeGear. A set of examples demonstrating much simpler, cleaner code in Delphi than in C#, Oxygene, C++, Ruby, Swift would be an amazing piece of marketing material and something to use to actually convert people to Delphi.
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit] [Edit]
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  Posted: Jun 4, 2017 3:10 PM   in response to: Joseph Mitzen in response to: Joseph Mitzen
Joseph Mitzen wrote:

Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:

Indeed. But sometimes, people still buy the more expensive product
because it offers something the other ones don't. That is why many
people buy Apple products. They don't have to be technically
superior to their competition (and sometimes they aren't), but they
offer great quality and this extremely consistent and intuitive
look and feel, something which Android etc. don't offer.

Certainly true, but I don't think in this case Delphi counts as being
a luxury item or has trendy brand appeal.

I just a page where they list the 16 most desirable languages to learn
to get a job. One of them was Pascal, the other was Delphi (Object
Pascal). Seems to be quite popular for writing mobile apps, these days.

So despite its price, it seems to thrive.

Oh, and Ruby, Python, etc. were there too.
--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"My experience in Amsterdam is that cyclists ride where the hell
they like and aim in a state of rage at all pedestrians while
ringing their bell loudly, the concept of avoiding people being
foreign to them.

My dream holiday would be a) a ticket to Amsterdam b) immunity
from prosecution and c) a baseball bat."
-- Terry Pratchett
Rudy Velthuis (...


Posts: 7,688
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit] [Edit]
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  Posted: Jun 4, 2017 3:16 PM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:

Joseph Mitzen wrote:

Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:

Indeed. But sometimes, people still buy the more expensive product
because it offers something the other ones don't. That is why many
people buy Apple products. They don't have to be technically
superior to their competition (and sometimes they aren't), but
they offer great quality and this extremely consistent and
intuitive look and feel, something which Android etc. don't
offer.

Certainly true, but I don't think in this case Delphi counts as
being a luxury item or has trendy brand appeal.

I just a page where

I just saw a page where...

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

Murphy's Fourth Law: If there is a possibility of several things
going wrong, the one that will cause the most damage will be the
one to go wrong.

Roy Lambert

Posts: 1,063
Registered: 8/7/01
Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit]
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  Posted: May 25, 2017 1:21 AM   in response to: Markus Humm in response to: Markus Humm
Markus

please inform us how one can offer a free product with a feature set
where nobody claims that anything needed is missing and which still
doesn't hurt the income stream of the apaid products.

I'm not asking for free just reasonably priced

And if you're after such a comparison the Starter Edition is the wrong
product for you anyway!

Thank you for agreeing with me

The right one in this case is the trial version!
Euns for 30 days and when you politely ask sales (we got informed on the
roadshow that it's possible) they can extend your key to 60 days or
maybe even 90 days (or issue a special one lasting so long) when they
get the impression you need that time for proper evaluation.

Interesting - was that you asking, or them touting for business?

=> where's your problem?

Personally I don't have one - little to no intention to upgrade though.

Roy Lambert
Arthur Hoornweg

Posts: 408
Registered: 6/2/98
Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit]
Click to report abuse...
  Posted: May 31, 2017 1:17 AM   in response to: Markus Humm in response to: Markus Humm
Markus Humm wrote:

Hello,

please inform us how one can offer a free product with a feature set
where nobody claims that anything needed is missing and which still
doesn't hurt the income stream of the apaid products.

The competition already offers a freeware IDE with everything and the kitchen sink built in... It's called Visual Studio Community Edition. The main limitation is the license. As a one-man shop you can even sell your apps.

Now if you were a newbie, what would you do?

Rudy Velthuis (...


Posts: 7,688
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit]
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  Posted: May 31, 2017 6:18 AM   in response to: Arthur Hoornweg in response to: Arthur Hoornweg
Arthur Hoornweg wrote:

Markus Humm wrote:

Hello,

please inform us how one can offer a free product with a feature set
where nobody claims that anything needed is missing and which still
doesn't hurt the income stream of the apaid products.

The competition already offers a freeware IDE with everything and the
kitchen sink built in... It's called Visual Studio Community Edition.
The main limitation is the license. As a one-man shop you can even
sell your apps.

Now if you were a newbie, what would you do?


Can you program in Delph with it? If not, fine for simple C++ (test)
projects (assuming it can do C++) or simple C# (test) projects, but
nothing else I would want it for.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"No one has ever had an idea in a dress suit."
-- Sir Frederick G. Banting
Roy Lambert

Posts: 1,063
Registered: 8/7/01
Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit]
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  Posted: May 31, 2017 8:07 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy

Now if you were a newbie, what would you do?

Can you program in Delph with it? If not, fine for simple C++ (test)
projects (assuming it can do C++) or simple C# (test) projects, but
nothing else I would want it for.

When did you revert to being a newbie?

Roy
Rudy Velthuis (...


Posts: 7,688
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit]
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  Posted: Jun 1, 2017 5:11 PM   in response to: Roy Lambert in response to: Roy Lambert
Roy Lambert wrote:

Rudy

Now if you were a newbie, what would you do?

Can you program in Delph with it? If not, fine for simple C++ (test)
projects (assuming it can do C++) or simple C# (test) projects, but
nothing else I would want it for.

When did you revert to being a newbie?

I am still a newbie in many things. But not in Delphi. <g>

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Marry me and I'll never look at another horse!"
-- Groucho Marx
Mike Margerum

Posts: 583
Registered: 12/1/99
Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit]
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  Posted: May 23, 2017 9:25 AM   in response to: Roy Lambert in response to: Roy Lambert
On 5/23/17 5:42 AM, Roy Lambert wrote:
Markus

Nice idea. But another thing helping to get new users was, that the
Embarcadero people were finally able to convince Idera management
(that's what we've been told on a roadshow even last week in Germany) to
release a free starter version. Yes it has some restrictions, but even
the control software for the world's bigges model train located in
Hamburg can be compiled with this free version!

And I'm sure it's no small application. Just no database usage as it seems.

A starter edition is a brilliant idea, and yes it shouldn't have all the bells and whistles of a "proper" edition but if its crippled to much it becomes a mechanism to not look at Delphi rather than encouraging people in.

Roy Lambert

They should have a standard version that's $199 new $99 upgrade that
has no database components / TDateset, but otherwise not crippled.
Arthur Hoornweg

Posts: 408
Registered: 6/2/98
Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit]
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  Posted: May 31, 2017 1:52 AM   in response to: Mike Margerum in response to: Mike Margerum
They should have a standard version that's $199 new $99 upgrade that
has no database components / TDateset, but otherwise not crippled.

I think it's unrealistic to assume that database connectivity is somehow an "enterprise" feature. It's basic and expected connectivity nowadays, the times have changed. Even simple apps want to store some info. And lots of the databases themselves are available for free or even open source. So... does it still make sense to pay $$$ for the "privilege" to be allowed connectivity to a freeware database? Or would it just p### people off and chase them into the arms of the competition?

I think the differences between the SKU's should be more focused on truly "enterprise" features such as collaboration, version control integration, diagramming, documenting, build control, code signing and deployment (like being able to create decent setups) than about withholding basic connectivity or even platforms.

Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit]
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  Posted: May 31, 2017 6:19 AM   in response to: Arthur Hoornweg in response to: Arthur Hoornweg
Arthur Hoornweg wrote:

They should have a standard version that's $199 new $99 upgrade
that has no database components / TDateset, but otherwise not
crippled.

I think it's unrealistic to assume that database connectivity is
somehow an "enterprise" feature.

It has always been, at least professional database connectivity. In
early versions, it was called Delphi C/S and not Enterprise, but the
separation has always existed.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"I've always wanted to be somebody, but I should have been
more specific." -- George Carlin
Roy Lambert

Posts: 1,063
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Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit]
Click to report abuse...
  Posted: May 31, 2017 8:07 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy

I think it's unrealistic to assume that database connectivity is
somehow an "enterprise" feature.

It has always been, at least professional database connectivity. In
early versions, it was called Delphi C/S and not Enterprise, but the
separation has always existed.

Interesting distinction "professional database connectivity" so the inferior versions had non-professional database connectivity which does sound like it describes the BDE adequately. HOWEVER, it did have database connectivity of some sort.

Roy

Jeff Overcash (...

Posts: 1,504
Registered: 9/23/99
Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit]
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  Posted: May 31, 2017 10:27 AM   in response to: Roy Lambert in response to: Roy Lambert
Roy Lambert wrote:
Rudy

I think it's unrealistic to assume that database connectivity is
somehow an "enterprise" feature.
It has always been, at least professional database connectivity. In
early versions, it was called Delphi C/S and not Enterprise, but the
separation has always existed.

Interesting distinction "professional database connectivity" so the inferior versions had non-professional database connectivity which does sound like it describes the BDE adequately. HOWEVER, it did have database connectivity of some sort.


No back then C/S included the BDE SQLLinks for SQL backends, the Pro level came
only with the local DB options pDox, DBase + the InterBase SQLLink. This is the
same distinction as today for FireDAC. Local Databases + InterBase at the Pro
level and all the other SQL backends at the Enterprise level.

Roy

--
Jeff Overcash (TeamB)
(Please do not email me directly unless asked. Thank You)
Learning is finding out what you already know. Doing is demonstrating that you
know it. Teaching is reminding others that they know it as well as you. We are
all leaners, doers, teachers. (R Bach)

Roy Lambert

Posts: 1,063
Registered: 8/7/01
Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit]
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  Posted: Jun 1, 2017 1:42 AM   in response to: Jeff Overcash (... in response to: Jeff Overcash (...
Jeff

Interesting distinction "professional database connectivity" so the inferior versions had non-professional database connectivity which does sound like it describes the BDE adequately. HOWEVER, it did have database connectivity of some sort.


No back then C/S included the BDE SQLLinks for SQL backends, the Pro level came
only with the local DB options pDox, DBase + the InterBase SQLLink. This is the
same distinction as today for FireDAC. Local Databases + InterBase at the Pro
level and all the other SQL backends at the Enterprise level.

You seem to be saying if its local its not database? The system had the hooks in place so that a 3rd party option could be installed ie it had TDataset.

Roy
Mike Margerum

Posts: 583
Registered: 12/1/99
Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit]
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  Posted: May 31, 2017 10:49 AM   in response to: Roy Lambert in response to: Roy Lambert
On 5/31/17 11:07 AM, Roy Lambert wrote:
Rudy

I think it's unrealistic to assume that database connectivity is
somehow an "enterprise" feature.

It has always been, at least professional database connectivity. In
early versions, it was called Delphi C/S and not Enterprise, but the
separation has always existed.

Interesting distinction "professional database connectivity" so the inferior versions had non-professional database connectivity which does sound like it describes the BDE adequately. HOWEVER, it did have database connectivity of some sort.

Roy


Maybe just allow for SQLite connectivity in the hobby or starter sku.
Roy Lambert

Posts: 1,063
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Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit]
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  Posted: Jun 1, 2017 1:42 AM   in response to: Mike Margerum in response to: Mike Margerum
Mike

Maybe just allow for SQLite connectivity in the hobby or starter sku.

All that's needed is to leave TDataset in there. Then a 3rd party alternative can be installed.

Roy
Mike Margerum

Posts: 583
Registered: 12/1/99
Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit]
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  Posted: Jun 2, 2017 6:57 AM   in response to: Roy Lambert in response to: Roy Lambert
On 6/1/17 4:42 AM, Roy Lambert wrote:
Mike

Maybe just allow for SQLite connectivity in the hobby or starter sku.

All that's needed is to leave TDataset in there. Then a 3rd party alternative can be installed.

Roy

Yeh but then that would kill the enterprise sku because, lets face it,
3rd party database packages are better than what EMB provides. I only
moved to enterprise because i thought I was going to use the mobile and
mac compilers + FMX.
Roy Lambert

Posts: 1,063
Registered: 8/7/01
Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit]
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  Posted: Jun 2, 2017 11:06 PM   in response to: Mike Margerum in response to: Mike Margerum
Mike

Yeh but then that would kill the enterprise sku because, lets face it,
3rd party database packages are better than what EMB provides. I only
moved to enterprise because i thought I was going to use the mobile and
mac compilers + FMX.

If that was all they were adding to make the Enterprise edition worth buying then maybe it should die.

Roy Lambert
Mike Margerum

Posts: 583
Registered: 12/1/99
Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit]
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  Posted: Jun 3, 2017 9:13 AM   in response to: Roy Lambert in response to: Roy Lambert
If that was all they were adding to make the Enterprise edition worth buying then maybe it should die.

Roy Lambert

Agree but that was really the only distinguishing feature of the Delphi
CS SKU back in the early days (SQLinks).

I was using Pro from Delphi 1 - XE7 with ADO. I drank the FMX + Firedac
Kool aid and upgraded to the ENT SKU. For various reasons, neither one
worked out for me so I really dont need to keep upgrading and I dont
need the CS SKU.

I'm giving EMB one more year to give me a compelling reason to continue
with my SA. If the 64 bit mac support + FMX is solid then i'll consider
using it. The windows 10 store support has also piqued my interest.
Hopefully they will invest in that as well.
Markus Humm

Posts: 5,062
Registered: 11/9/03
Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit]
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  Posted: Jun 3, 2017 11:20 PM   in response to: Mike Margerum in response to: Mike Margerum
Am 03.06.2017 um 18:13 schrieb Mike Margerum:
If that was all they were adding to make the Enterprise edition worth buying then maybe it should die.

Roy Lambert

Agree but that was really the only distinguishing feature of the Delphi
CS SKU back in the early days (SQLinks).

I was using Pro from Delphi 1 - XE7 with ADO. I drank the FMX + Firedac
Kool aid and upgraded to the ENT SKU. For various reasons, neither one
worked out for me so I really dont need to keep upgrading and I dont
need the CS SKU.

I'm giving EMB one more year to give me a compelling reason to continue
with my SA. If the 64 bit mac support + FMX is solid then i'll consider
using it. The windows 10 store support has also piqued my interest.
Hopefully they will invest in that as well.

Hello,

Windows 10 Store support via the bridge is build in and as it was said
on the roadshow Delphi was the first development environment to do so,
according to MS themselves.

What would need investment on that front currently?
(means: is there anything missing? The current roadmap cites further
Windows 10 and VCL improvements in future Tokyo updates)

Greetings

Markus
Mike Margerum

Posts: 583
Registered: 12/1/99
Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit]
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  Posted: Jun 5, 2017 5:34 AM   in response to: Markus Humm in response to: Markus Humm
Windows 10 Store support via the bridge is build in and as it was said
on the roadshow Delphi was the first development environment to do so,
according to MS themselves.

What would need investment on that front currently?
(means: is there anything missing? The current roadmap cites further
Windows 10 and VCL improvements in future Tokyo updates)

I know less than nothing about the windows 10 store support model. I
guess I meant I want EMB to continue supporting it as best it can.
Markus Humm

Posts: 5,062
Registered: 11/9/03
Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit]
Click to report abuse...
  Posted: Jun 6, 2017 8:53 AM   in response to: Mike Margerum in response to: Mike Margerum
Am 05.06.2017 um 14:34 schrieb Mike Margerum:
Windows 10 Store support via the bridge is build in and as it was said
on the roadshow Delphi was the first development environment to do so,
according to MS themselves.

What would need investment on that front currently?
(means: is there anything missing? The current roadmap cites further
Windows 10 and VCL improvements in future Tokyo updates)

I know less than nothing about the windows 10 store support model. I
guess I meant I want EMB to continue supporting it as best it can.

Ok, understood. So I guess current support should be ok if it works as told.

Greetings

Markus
Brian Hamilton ...

Posts: 553
Registered: 10/14/04
Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit]
Click to report abuse...
  Posted: Jun 7, 2017 3:16 AM   in response to: Markus Humm in response to: Markus Humm
What would need investment on that front currently?
(means: is there anything missing? The current roadmap cites further
Windows 10 and VCL improvements in future Tokyo updates)

Live tile support would be cool
Roy Lambert

Posts: 1,063
Registered: 8/7/01
Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit]
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  Posted: Jun 7, 2017 4:18 AM   in response to: Brian Hamilton ... in response to: Brian Hamilton ...
Brian

Live tile support would be cool

Its nice to know someone loves them. Any PC I get my hands on has them all disabled / uninstalled.

Roy Lambert
Rudy Velthuis (...


Posts: 7,688
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit]
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  Posted: Jun 1, 2017 5:12 PM   in response to: Roy Lambert in response to: Roy Lambert
Roy Lambert wrote:

Rudy

I think it's unrealistic to assume that database connectivity is
somehow an "enterprise" feature.

It has always been, at least professional database connectivity. In
early versions, it was called Delphi C/S and not Enterprise, but the
separation has always existed.

Interesting distinction "professional database connectivity" so the
inferior versions had non-professional database connectivity

Local databases. Not really fit for professional use.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Why yes -- a bulletproof vest."
-- James Rodges, murderer, on his final request before the
firing squad.
Roy Lambert

Posts: 1,063
Registered: 8/7/01
Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit]
Click to report abuse...
  Posted: Jun 2, 2017 12:42 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy

Local databases. Not really fit for professional use.

Please justify that, and when you do please leave your prejudices out of it and just use logic and facts.

Roy Lambert
Rudy Velthuis (...


Posts: 7,688
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit]
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  Posted: Jun 2, 2017 4:10 AM   in response to: Roy Lambert in response to: Roy Lambert
Roy Lambert wrote:

Rudy

Local databases. Not really fit for professional use.

Please justify that

LOL!

Or are you serious?

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"We must be willing to let go of the life we have planned, so
as to have the life that is waiting for us."
-- Joseph Campbell
Roy Lambert

Posts: 1,063
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Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit]
Click to report abuse...
  Posted: Jun 2, 2017 6:19 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy

Local databases. Not really fit for professional use.

Please justify that

LOL!

Or are you serious?

Serious

Roy Lambert
Rudy Velthuis (...


Posts: 7,688
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit]
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  Posted: Jun 2, 2017 12:04 PM   in response to: Roy Lambert in response to: Roy Lambert
Roy Lambert wrote:

Rudy

Local databases. Not really fit for professional use.

Please justify that

LOL!

Or are you serious?

Serious

OK. I don't quite see what I should justify, though.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"It is lamentable, that to be a good patriot one must become
the enemy of the rest of mankind."
-- Voltaire
Brian Hamilton ...

Posts: 553
Registered: 10/14/04
Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit]
Click to report abuse...
  Posted: Jun 2, 2017 1:41 PM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...

Local databases. Not really fit for professional use.

Please justify that

LOL!

Or are you serious?

Serious

OK. I don't quite see what I should justify, though.

not sure if you deliberatly needle people like that or that you actually do not see how you come across Rudy?
obviously it would be good if you could justify your statement that local databases are not fit for Pro users
Rudy Velthuis (...


Posts: 7,688
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit]
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  Posted: Jun 3, 2017 3:14 AM   in response to: Brian Hamilton ... in response to: Brian Hamilton ...
Brian Hamilton Hamilton wrote:


Local databases. Not really fit for professional use.

Please justify that

LOL!

Or are you serious?

Serious

OK. I don't quite see what I should justify, though.

not sure if you deliberatly needle people like that or that you
actually do not see how you come across Rudy? obviously it would be
good if you could justify your statement that local databases are not
fit for Pro users

Really? Isn't that obvious?

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"If you lie to the compiler, it will get its revenge."
-- Henry Spencer
Roy Lambert

Posts: 1,063
Registered: 8/7/01
Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit]
Click to report abuse...
  Posted: Jun 3, 2017 11:14 PM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy

not sure if you deliberatly needle people like that or that you
actually do not see how you come across Rudy? obviously it would be
good if you could justify your statement that local databases are not
fit for Pro users

Really? Isn't that obvious?

Yes, and sometimes it fun to play

Roy
Roy Lambert

Posts: 1,063
Registered: 8/7/01
Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit]
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  Posted: Jun 2, 2017 11:11 PM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy

Local databases. Not really fit for professional use.

Please justify that

LOL!

Or are you serious?

Serious

OK. I don't quite see what I should justify, though.

Your first response and this one are pretty much what I expected.

You have the opinion that local databases are not fit for professional use. I'd like to know on what facts you base that opinion. But to make life easy for you give the names of the products that you do regard as fit for professional use.

Roy Lambert
Mike Margerum

Posts: 583
Registered: 12/1/99
Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit]
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  Posted: Jun 3, 2017 9:15 AM   in response to: Roy Lambert in response to: Roy Lambert

You have the opinion that local databases are not fit for professional use. I'd like to know on what facts you base that opinion. But to make life easy for you give the names of the products that you do regard as fit for professional use.

Roy Lambert

WTH does "professional use" even mean? Lots of professionals use
SQLite. I'm one of them. I think "professional" simply means "I can
get big companies to pay me more".
Roy Lambert

Posts: 1,063
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Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit]
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  Posted: Jun 3, 2017 11:14 PM   in response to: Mike Margerum in response to: Mike Margerum
Mike

WTH does "professional use" even mean? Lots of professionals use
SQLite. I'm one of them. I think "professional" simply means "I can
get big companies to pay me more".

Actually it means Rudy is trying to wind people up, and sometimes it fun to play especially to see if you can get the last word (note this does not happen very often)

Roy Lambert
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit]
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  Posted: Jun 4, 2017 2:26 AM   in response to: Roy Lambert in response to: Roy Lambert
Roy Lambert wrote:

Mike

WTH does "professional use" even mean? Lots of professionals use
SQLite. I'm one of them. I think "professional" simply means "I can
get big companies to pay me more".

Actually it means Rudy is trying to wind people up

No, he isn't. And trust me, I know him very well. <g>

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"For there was never yet philosopher
That could endure the toothache patiently.
-- William Shakespeare, Much Ado About Nothing
Roy Lambert

Posts: 1,063
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Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit]
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  Posted: Jun 4, 2017 6:49 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy

Actually it means Rudy is trying to wind people up

No, he isn't. And trust me, I know him very well. <g>

In the event that your knowledge of him is correct you have my sympathy.

Roy Lambert
Rudy Velthuis (...


Posts: 7,688
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Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit]
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  Posted: Jun 4, 2017 10:05 AM   in response to: Roy Lambert in response to: Roy Lambert
Roy Lambert wrote:

Rudy

Actually it means Rudy is trying to wind people up

No, he isn't. And trust me, I know him very well. <g>

In the event that your knowledge of him is correct you have my
sympathy.

No need. I quite like him, actually. <g>

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"When liberty is taken away by force it can be restored by
force. When it is relinquished voluntarily by default, it can
never be recovered."
-- Dorothy Thompson
Roy Lambert

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Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit]
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  Posted: Jun 5, 2017 1:11 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy

No need. I quite like him, actually. <g>

You poor sad creature - you need to get out more :)

Roy
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit]
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  Posted: Jun 5, 2017 5:31 AM   in response to: Roy Lambert in response to: Roy Lambert
Roy Lambert wrote:

Rudy

No need. I quite like him, actually. <g>

You poor sad creature - you need to get out more :)

Oh, I'm fine, thank you.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Take only memories; leave nothing but footprints."
-- Chief Seattle
Roy Lambert

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Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit]
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  Posted: Jun 5, 2017 6:54 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy

Oh, I'm fine, thank you.

Are you sure? Had you thought of something like

http://www.maplin.co.uk/p/maplin-10000-lux-full-size-sad-light-a20hw

Roy Lambert
Rudy Velthuis (...


Posts: 7,688
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit]
Click to report abuse...
  Posted: Jun 5, 2017 12:23 PM   in response to: Roy Lambert in response to: Roy Lambert
Roy Lambert wrote:

Rudy

Oh, I'm fine, thank you.

Are you sure? Had you thought of something like

http://www.maplin.co.uk/p/maplin-10000-lux-full-size-sad-light-a20hw

Roy Lambert

Actually, many years ago, my wife bought a similar light, to get
through the winter. She didn't use it much, though. Later, when he
moved out, my son took it, for his appartment. Gives a nice light.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Liberty is the right to do what I like; license, the right
to do what you like." -- Bertrand Russell
Roy Lambert

Posts: 1,063
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Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit]
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  Posted: Jun 5, 2017 11:41 PM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy

Actually, many years ago, my wife bought a similar light, to get
through the winter. She didn't use it much, though. Later, when he
moved out, my son took it, for his appartment. Gives a nice light.

Great for craft work cos its more like daylight than daylight bulbs

Roy
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit]
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  Posted: Jun 7, 2017 12:51 PM   in response to: Roy Lambert in response to: Roy Lambert
Roy Lambert wrote:

Rudy

Actually, many years ago, my wife bought a similar light, to get
through the winter. She didn't use it much, though. Later, when he
moved out, my son took it, for his appartment. Gives a nice light.

Great for craft work cos its more like daylight than daylight bulbs

I almost thought you mentioned Kraftwerk (http://www.kraftwerk.com/),
but then I saw what you really typed.

I am a great fan of theirs. Have seen them live a few times.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"That's not a lie, it's a terminological inexactitude."
-- Alexander Haig
Roy Lambert

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Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit]
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  Posted: Jun 8, 2017 1:04 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy

I almost thought you mentioned Kraftwerk (http://www.kraftwerk.com/),
but then I saw what you really typed.

I am a great fan of theirs. Have seen them live a few times.

Got some of their stuff but prefer Tangerine Dream or Soft Machine

Roy
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit]
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  Posted: Jun 8, 2017 2:47 AM   in response to: Roy Lambert in response to: Roy Lambert
Roy Lambert wrote:

Rudy

I almost thought you mentioned Kraftwerk
(http://www.kraftwerk.com/), but then I saw what you really typed.

I am a great fan of theirs. Have seen them live a few times.

Got some of their stuff but prefer Tangerine Dream or Soft Machine

I'vd been to a few Tangerine Dream and Klaus Schulze concerts too. <g>

After their concert in Vianden, Luxemburg, they even invited us (a
selected group of visitors) to late night pizza/pasta in the city of
Luxemburg. I was sitting directly across Edgar Froese and Chris Franke,
while Johannes Schmoelling was sitting a little to my right.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Fascism is capitalism in decay."
-- Vladimir Ilyich Lenin
Roy Lambert

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Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit]
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  Posted: Jun 8, 2017 5:33 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy

I'vd been to a few Tangerine Dream and Klaus Schulze concerts too. <g>

After their concert in Vianden, Luxemburg, they even invited us (a
selected group of visitors) to late night pizza/pasta in the city of
Luxemburg. I was sitting directly across Edgar Froese and Chris Franke,
while Johannes Schmoelling was sitting a little to my right.

I am now officially jealous!

Roy
Arthur Hoornweg

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Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit]
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  Posted: Jun 1, 2017 1:15 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:

It has always been, at least professional database connectivity. In
early versions, it was called Delphi C/S and not Enterprise, but the
separation has always existed.

That's a rather incomplete answer which I feel compelled to correct.

You know, in Delphi 5 times, Borland released AdoExpress. This was included in the C/S version and available as a paid add-on for Delphi 5 Pro.

AdoExpress enabled developers to do Client/Server development through ADO, which is part of the Windows operating system. ADO connects to any database for which an OleDB or ODBC driver exists. Since ADO is part of Windows and OleDB & ODBC drivers are a standard technology, usually supplied and maintained by the database vendor (whom you would expect to have the most intimate knowledge of his own product), this technology was totally free of proprietary (Borland/Inprise) drivers, making it very future proof, at least on Windows. Existing applications would automatically benefit if the vendor's drivers were improved/updated.

When Delphi 6 was released, AdoExpress was included in Delphi Pro. Of course the price was upped. And that was it. It has been part of the Pro version ever since. It's called dbGo nowadays.

Of course Borland expected everyone to start using dbExpress instead, which was also released in Delphi 6/Kylix. And dbExpress and Firedac indeed limit "pro" users to using local databases. But Ado still works perfectly.

(Edit) There were rumors in 2012 that Embarcadero would forbid anything but client-only access in the Eula of XE3 pro, which would include ADO. A shitstorm followed and the paragraph never made it into the final Eula.

Edited by: Arthur Hoornweg on Jun 1, 2017 1:48 AM

Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit]
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  Posted: May 25, 2017 4:49 AM   in response to: Roy Lambert in response to: Roy Lambert
Roy Lambert wrote:

A starter edition is a brilliant idea, and yes it shouldn't have all
the bells and whistles of a "proper" edition but if its crippled to
much it becomes a mechanism to not look at Delphi rather than
encouraging people in.

Depends on what you considered "crippled too much". If it is just to
knock up code, I bet it is ideal for many who don't want to pay too
much.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"The worst crimes were dared by a few, willed by more and
tolerated by all." -- Tacitus
Roy Lambert

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Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit]
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  Posted: May 25, 2017 5:54 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy

A starter edition is a brilliant idea, and yes it shouldn't have all
the bells and whistles of a "proper" edition but if its crippled to
much it becomes a mechanism to not look at Delphi rather than
encouraging people in.

Depends on what you considered "crippled too much"

I'd say no code formatter, I think I've seen on these forums there are no tool tips which for me would make it to clunky to bother with. Think about what they'd have to take out of the Delphi you use before you'd throw your hands up in horror and run to a different IDE.

. If it is just to
knock up code, I bet it is ideal for many who don't want to pay too
much.

The problem with that statement is there are many alternatives many better publicised than Delphi and many considered sexier than Delphi so why bother with Delphi.

Roy Lambert
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit]
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  Posted: May 25, 2017 1:34 PM   in response to: Roy Lambert in response to: Roy Lambert
Roy Lambert wrote:

Rudy

A starter edition is a brilliant idea, and yes it shouldn't have
all >> the bells and whistles of a "proper" edition but if its
crippled to >> much it becomes a mechanism to not look at Delphi
rather than >> encouraging people in.

Depends on what you considered "crippled too much"

I'd say no code formatter, I think I've seen on these forums there
are no tool tips which for me would make it to clunky to bother with.
Think about what they'd have to take out of the Delphi you use before
you'd throw your hands up in horror and run to a different IDE.

In the last few months, I have been using several editors and IDEs.
They were not nearly like the RAD Studio IDE, and yet I managed.
--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Everything is drive-through. In California, they even have a
burial service called Jump-In-The-Box." -- Wil Shriner.
Barry McClure

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Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit]
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  Posted: May 22, 2017 10:19 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:

Delphi already **has** a considerable market share, despite the prices
they are currently asking.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Programming is one of the most difficult branches of applied
mathematics; the poorer mathematicians had better remain pure
mathematicians." -- Edsger Dijkstra

According to TIOBE, as of May 2017 Delphi is ranked 18 out of 20 (2.038%), down from 11th spot a year ago. That is quite a drop. It is the only language in the past year with a "<<" change icon. It is below MATLAB in popularity and above PL/SQL. At least it is beating SQL scripting. ;-)

They base their ranking on the results returned by popular search engines. Their ranking will include all users of Delphi, including legacy users that are still using Delphi 3 to 7. After looking at the list, I can't dispute their findings. You may get similar rankings for programming books sold at Amazon.

That is not to say Delphi is not as good as the other programming languages, the website merely ranks the popularity of the programming languages. And I think the high prices for Delphi in the recent years have made it unfordable to many programmers and they voted with their wallets. This trend will likely continue unless something is done with the pricing structure.

https://www.tiobe.com/tiobe-index/

--

PrintDAT! - The 5 Second Report Component
http://www.grebarsys.com
Joseph Mitzen

Posts: 388
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Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit]
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  Posted: May 22, 2017 1:16 PM   in response to: Barry McClure in response to: Barry McClure
Barry McClure wrote:
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:

Delphi already **has** a considerable market share, despite the prices
they are currently asking.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Programming is one of the most difficult branches of applied
mathematics; the poorer mathematicians had better remain pure
mathematicians." -- Edsger Dijkstra

Barry, the argument about Delphi market share has been had multiple times here. Those of us who argue it is small have already won - decidedly. There's no quantifiable evidence in the real world of appreciable Delphi market share, but certain folks will simply never admit it. Bruce McGee refused to agree to the suggestion that book publishers had a better idea of the market for computer books than he did and I could post you one absurd claim in which a lack of Delphi jobs on a job board was explained away by the suggestion that as soon as a Delphi job appeared it was filled, while there were no Java programmers (!!!!!) so those jobs were staying on the job board.

And of course there was Nick Hodges fighting with me, despite admitting he agreed the official estimate was an order of magnitude too high, because "he can't truly KNOW". Apparently he was objecting on philosophical grounds about the nature of knowledge. Then I pulled up a quote from his own blog in which he declared that he believed Delphi was becoming more popular. The post then stated that he couldn't prove it, he just felt it in his heart. Sigh....

According to TIOBE, as of May 2017 Delphi is ranked 18 out of 20 (2.038%), down from 11th spot a year ago. That is quite a drop. It is the only language in the past year with a "<<" change icon. It is below MATLAB in popularity and above PL/SQL. At
least it is beating SQL scripting. ;-)

I can also pull up quotes from Bruce and Rudy in which they argue that TIOBE, and I quote, "doesn't mean anything". They only made these arguments back when Delphi was lower, of course. :-) Actually, Rudy will still be dismissive of TIOBE to his credit although he does mention it now. Bruce, on the other hand, got TIOBE to take more of the hits for "Pascal" and give them to Delphi than for FreePascal, and then bragged about Delphi's ranking going up. It was actually the second time a Delphi user got TIOBE to fiddle with its scoring mechanism to make Delphi look better.

They base their ranking on the results returned by popular search engines. Their ranking will include all users of Delphi, including legacy users that are still using Delphi 3 to 7. After looking at the list, I can't dispute their findings. You may get similar >rankings for programming books sold at Amazon.

TIOBE's use of web results make it a "lagging indicator". Ancient web pages for languages no longer in favor will prop up those languages' rankings for a long time after they've fallen from popular use. Every metric designed to be a leading indicator ranks Delphi more poorly, actually. For instance, PYPL uses Google Trends data (what people are actually searching for) to examine how many people are searching for tutorials in various languages. Someone got them to add Delphi; it's been at the bottom of their list since adding it.

http://pypl.github.io/PYPL.html

RedMonk looks at Stack Overflow questions and Github activity; as you can see from their data as of January Delphi is far, far, far from having a "considerable market share". It's nowhere near the top tier, or even the top 20, in terms of actual, quantifiable usage in the real world:

http://redmonk.com/sogrady/2017/03/17/language-rankings-1-17/

IEEE has a neat site with language rankings based on all sorts of criteria, from web searches to twitter mentions to Github activity, job postings, etc. You can even rank all of the factors and create your own ranking as well as do comparisons across three years of data!

http://spectrum.ieee.org/static/interactive-the-top-programming-languages-2016

With their base ranking, Delphi just beats ancient Fortran but is already beaten by much younger Rust. Hardly "considerable market share".

I used to make my own graphs of Stack Overflow activity but stopped when no one here even bothered commenting on them (because it didn't tell them what they wanted to hear). Stack Overflow now has its own trend system set up though so it's easy to check out:

https://insights.stackoverflow.com/trends?utm_source=so-owned&utm_medium=blog&utm_campaign=trends&utm_content=blog-link&utm_term=state-of-mobile&tags=delphi

As I've personally documented before, Delphi is the only language to show this persistent downward trend (so long as the first few months of Stack Overflow's operation are discarded). Rather than having a "considerable market share", it appears to have cratered.

I could go on and on (and have, pointlessly, in the past), but suffice it to say there are no objective, quantifiable metrics that show "considerable market share" for Delphi. Many people here have probably forgotten more about programming than I'll ever know, but I have worked a long time as a data analyst. Take it from me, they can't win this argument because evidence for it simply doesn't exist. Meanwhile, every quantifiable metric obtainable indicates the opposite. There's an expression, "Don't pee on my leg and tell me it's raining." My professional opinion is that you need to wear rubber boots and a raincoat when bringing up this topic on this forum. :-)

That is not to say Delphi is not as good as the other programming languages, the website merely ranks the popularity of the programming languages. And I think the high prices for Delphi in the recent years have made it unfordable to many >programmers and they voted with their wallets. This trend will likely continue unless something is done with the pricing structure.

Data shows a long, slow bleed of users to other languages (anecdotally, often C#). You've got a user base left that consists of those with large legacy codebases they can't or won't port (at least not yet) and a few, well, uber-fans. Even Mr. Popov, who's in charge of Delphi now for Idera, told Blaise Pascal magazine that they don't see "young, independent developers" taking an interest in Delphi. He stated that they see existing business customers and an attempt to get back into academia (which won't work, but that's another topic) as their main avenues, which is why they weren't very concerned about the starter edition. So even Mr. Popov doesn't see this demand that Rudy is mentioning. I've got some quotes here. I actually ran these by Bruce McGee, but he ignored them, called them a "Gish Gallop", and then insulted me. :-(

First, Popov appears to not think of Delphi as something used to develop new software....

Popov:

"I don't know the languages used to develop the IDERA tools.... They are not written in Delphi for sure. I do know that a lot of database tools are written in Delphi. It lends itself very nicely for that, but IDERA tools are quite new and probably leverage other technologies."

Then in regards to where they see interest for Delphi:

"I think that the demand for a free Delphi Starter version may not be so high because there are fewer independent young developers. We have either people that have worked for a long time with Delphi and their companies can pay for the tools or students that will get access through our academic program."

The interviewer objects, then Popov continues....

"Possible, but that is our perception of the market today and that is why we have not focused so much on the Delphi Starter edition."

So even Idera's top guy for Delphi doesn't see a demand by new or young developers for Delphi. Their market is "people that have worked for a long time with Delphi" and trying to get into academia.
Markus Humm

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Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit]
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  Posted: May 22, 2017 1:42 PM   in response to: Joseph Mitzen in response to: Joseph Mitzen
Hello,

I was at a roadshow event last week and there were about 60 attendees.
The room was full and one my colleagues from IT who was there as well
was positively surprised about that figure!

And this was not the only such event in Germany.

Greetings

Markus
Joseph Mitzen

Posts: 388
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Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit]
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  Posted: May 22, 2017 3:45 PM   in response to: Markus Humm in response to: Markus Humm
Markus Humm wrote:
Hello,

I was at a roadshow event last week and there were about 60 attendees.
The room was full and one my colleagues from IT who was there as well
was positively surprised about that figure!

And this was not the only such event in Germany.

That's nice, and I'm glad, but do you believe that 60 people is a very large number of developers to be able to assemble?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Python_Conference#History
Markus Humm

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Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit]
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  Posted: May 23, 2017 9:05 AM   in response to: Joseph Mitzen in response to: Joseph Mitzen
Am 23.05.2017 um 00:45 schrieb Joseph Mitzen:
Markus Humm wrote:
Hello,

I was at a roadshow event last week and there were about 60 attendees.
The room was full and one my colleagues from IT who was there as well
was positively surprised about that figure!

And this was not the only such event in Germany.

That's nice, and I'm glad, but do you believe that 60 people is a very large number of developers to be able to assemble?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Python_Conference#History

I never told that. But they were more attendees than I had expected to come!

Greetings

Markus
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit]
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  Posted: May 25, 2017 4:09 AM   in response to: Joseph Mitzen in response to: Joseph Mitzen
Joseph Mitzen wrote:

Markus Humm wrote:
Hello,

I was at a roadshow event last week and there were about 60
attendees. The room was full and one my colleagues from IT who was
there as well was positively surprised about that figure!

And this was not the only such event in Germany.

That's nice, and I'm glad, but do you believe that 60 people is a
very large number of developers to be able to assemble?

Depends on the location and the time of the week. <g>

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"There are perhaps 5% of the population that simply can't think.
There are another 5% who can, and do.
The remaining 90% can think, but don't." -- Robert A. Heinlein
Markus Humm

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Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit]
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  Posted: May 26, 2017 9:44 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Am 25.05.2017 um 13:09 schrieb Rudy Velthuis (TeamB):
Joseph Mitzen wrote:

Markus Humm wrote:
Hello,

I was at a roadshow event last week and there were about 60
attendees. The room was full and one my colleagues from IT who was
there as well was positively surprised about that figure!

And this was not the only such event in Germany.

That's nice, and I'm glad, but do you believe that 60 people is a
very large number of developers to be able to assemble?

Depends on the location and the time of the week. <g>

It was on a Tuesday.

Greetings

Markus
Quentin Correll


Posts: 2,409
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Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit]
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  Posted: May 22, 2017 7:57 PM   in response to: Markus Humm in response to: Markus Humm
Markus,

| ...one my colleagues from IT who was there as well
| was positively surprised about that figure!

What "figure?"

--

Q -- XanaNews 1.19.1.372 - 2017-05-22 19:57:16
Roy Lambert

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Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit]
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  Posted: May 23, 2017 2:47 AM   in response to: Quentin Correll in response to: Quentin Correll
Quentin

| ...one my colleagues from IT who was there as well
| was positively surprised about that figure!

What "figure?"

You know - the girl giving the presentation

Roy
Markus Humm

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Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit]
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  Posted: May 23, 2017 9:05 AM   in response to: Quentin Correll in response to: Quentin Correll
Am 23.05.2017 um 04:57 schrieb Quentin Correll:
Markus,

| ...one my colleagues from IT who was there as well
| was positively surprised about that figure!

What "figure?"

Number?
Remember: I'm a non native English speaker.

Greetings

Markus
Quentin Correll


Posts: 2,409
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Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit]
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  Posted: May 23, 2017 10:38 AM   in response to: Markus Humm in response to: Markus Humm
Markus,

| | What "figure?"
| |

| Number?
| Remember: I'm a non native English speaker.


<chuckle>

I finally figured out that you meant the 60 attendees. <g>

Sometimes my old mind is a bit slow. ;-)

--

Q -- XanaNews 1.19.1.372 - 2017-05-23 10:36:27
Roy Lambert

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Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit]
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  Posted: May 23, 2017 2:42 AM   in response to: Markus Humm in response to: Markus Humm
Markus

I was at a roadshow event last week and there were about 60 attendees.
The room was full and one my colleagues from IT who was there as well
was positively surprised about that figure!

What was the average age and how many were evaluating buying Delphi?

Roy Lambert
Markus Humm

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Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit]
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  Posted: May 23, 2017 9:11 AM   in response to: Roy Lambert in response to: Roy Lambert
Am 23.05.2017 um 11:42 schrieb Roy Lambert:
Markus

I was at a roadshow event last week and there were about 60 attendees.
The room was full and one my colleagues from IT who was there as well
was positively surprised about that figure!

What was the average age and how many were evaluating buying Delphi?

Roy Lambert

Hello,

I guess most of them already had a version of it.
2 female attendees. Overal age: I guess there weren't many below 30
years but other than that age was mixed and I guess if a company has
several Delphi developers they might send the more senior ones to such
an event and they'll report to the younger ones. But that's of course
only a guess.

For instance we didn't take my 20something year old student along
either, who's currently enhancing one of my Delphi projects.

Greetings

Markus
Roy Lambert

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Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit]
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  Posted: May 23, 2017 11:11 PM   in response to: Markus Humm in response to: Markus Humm
Markus

I guess most of them already had a version of it.

If your guess is right there is the problem. Telling the people who have already decided Delphi is great that Delphi is great is not a lot of use.

Roy Lambert
Markus Humm

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Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit]
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  Posted: May 24, 2017 9:28 AM   in response to: Roy Lambert in response to: Roy Lambert
Am 24.05.2017 um 08:11 schrieb Roy Lambert:
Markus

I guess most of them already had a version of it.

If your guess is right there is the problem. Telling the people who have already decided Delphi is great that Delphi is great is not a lot of use.

Roy Lambert

Hm?
The roadshow is about showing the new version and which new features it
contains. Sometimes it will generate a few update sales but the main
purpose afaik is to educate us developers about the new features. This
can be done in more detail and more interactively in such an event than
it can be done by a blog post.

Greetings

Markus
Joseph Mitzen

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Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit]
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  Posted: May 24, 2017 11:35 AM   in response to: Markus Humm in response to: Markus Humm
Markus Humm wrote:

The roadshow is about showing the new version and which new features it
contains. Sometimes it will generate a few update sales but the main
purpose afaik is to educate us developers about the new features.

A web page could do that.

This
can be done in more detail and more interactively in such an event than
it can be done by a blog post.

Then you have a webinar. Or, you know, decent documentation. Bjarne Stroustrup doesn't travel around the world personally showing off new versions of C++. I used to believe this whole "world tour" thing was just an excuse for David Intersimone to get a lot of free travel. I don't know what the point of it is now. What would be nice to have in person is CodeRage, but they insist on doing that virtually.
David Erbas-White

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Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit]
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  Posted: May 24, 2017 9:28 PM   in response to: Joseph Mitzen in response to: Joseph Mitzen
On 5/24/2017 11:35 AM, Joseph Mitzen wrote:
Markus Humm wrote:

The roadshow is about showing the new version and which new features it
contains. Sometimes it will generate a few update sales but the main
purpose afaik is to educate us developers about the new features.

A web page could do that.

This
can be done in more detail and more interactively in such an event than
it can be done by a blog post.

Then you have a webinar. Or, you know, decent documentation. Bjarne Stroustrup doesn't travel around the world personally showing off new versions of C++. I used to believe this whole "world tour" thing was just an excuse for David Intersimone to get a lot of free travel. I don't know what the point of it is now. What would be nice to have in person is CodeRage, but they insist on doing that virtually.

I attended a Delphi webinar a couple of weeks ago (for using Raspberry
Pi with Delphi). I've probably averaged a webinar a week for the past
couple of months, for various things, but this was the only Delphi one.

It was complete crap. The FIRST HALF was explaining what a single-board
computer is (if someone doesn't know what a Raspberry Pi is, but is
signed up for a webinar to use it, you've got a whole new set of
problems), and then explaining why (frankly) none of the various OS
options to put IN the Raspberry Pi were useful (not joking). The second
half was two 'hello world' apps (literally, a label that had text on
it). The one done using C++ Builder said something like "Hello from
Delphi" -- with an afterthought graphic added that said "should have
been "Hello from C++ Builder".

It was amateurish, poorly thought out, and gave no useful information.
I probably spent more time writing out my thoughts to the sales
representative who made the follow-up sales call than was put into
creating the webinar (only being slightly facetious).

All the webinars I've attended recently would have received a 4-5 rating
on a 5-star scale. This one would have been lucky to receive a half-star.

This is NOT how one grows the product.

David Erbas-White
Markus Humm

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Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit]
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  Posted: May 24, 2017 11:28 PM   in response to: David Erbas-White in response to: David Erbas-White
Am 25.05.2017 um 06:28 schrieb David Erbas-White:
On 5/24/2017 11:35 AM, Joseph Mitzen wrote:
Markus Humm wrote:

The roadshow is about showing the new version and which new features it
contains. Sometimes it will generate a few update sales but the main
purpose afaik is to educate us developers about the new features.

A web page could do that.

This
can be done in more detail and more interactively in such an event than
it can be done by a blog post.

Then you have a webinar. Or, you know, decent documentation. Bjarne Stroustrup doesn't travel around the world personally showing off new versions of C++.

And? New versions of that are not developed by Bjarne alone any more.
He can do what he likes.


I used to believe this whole "world tour" thing was just an excuse for David Intersimone to get a lot of free travel. >> I don't know what the point of it is now. What would be nice to have
in person is CodeRage,
but they insist on doing that virtually.

There are other in person conferences already. Oh and those road shows
do not only contain stuff new in the just released version! So to a
lesser extend they are like "in person" CodeRage.


I attended a Delphi webinar a couple of weeks ago (for using Raspberry
Pi with Delphi). I've probably averaged a webinar a week for the past
couple of months, for various things, but this was the only Delphi one.

It was complete crap. The FIRST HALF was explaining what a single-board
computer is (if someone doesn't know what a Raspberry Pi is, but is
signed up for a webinar to use it, you've got a whole new set of
problems), and then explaining why (frankly) none of the various OS
options to put IN the Raspberry Pi were useful (not joking). The second
half was two 'hello world' apps (literally, a label that had text on
it). The one done using C++ Builder said something like "Hello from
Delphi" -- with an afterthought graphic added that said "should have
been "Hello from C++ Builder".

It was amateurish, poorly thought out, and gave no useful information.
I probably spent more time writing out my thoughts to the sales
representative who made the follow-up sales call than was put into
creating the webinar (only being slightly facetious).

All the webinars I've attended recently would have received a 4-5 rating
on a 5-star scale. This one would have been lucky to receive a half-star.

This is NOT how one grows the product.

Hello,

I subscribed to the webinar but diodn't watch it.
Reading your description I won't watch it now. Other EMBT webinars I
already watched were way better. Maybe not perfect but depending on the
topic and speakers 3+ to 5. I saw two recently, one about parallel
programming. It contained some basics about multithreading and where
pitfalls are (which is a good starting point for those new to that topic
and a nice refresher for things you might have forgotten) and the other
half was about RTL support in Delphi in that area and that told me some
new things I didn't knew yet.

The other one was about mobile development and was something like an
overview and what FMX basically can do to help. As an overview it was
quite ok and I even learned a few little things (I am already doing FMX
mobile development). That was ok as well and the presenting style of
Sarina was quite ok as well.

Greetings

Markus
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit]
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  Posted: May 25, 2017 4:09 AM   in response to: Markus Humm in response to: Markus Humm
Markus Humm wrote:

Hello,

I was at a roadshow event last week and there were about 60 attendees.
The room was full and one my colleagues from IT who was there as well
was positively surprised about that figure!

And this was not the only such event in Germany.

That does not surprise me one bit. Joseph has no evidence that the
market share is large (and that is his problem only), but he has no
evidence that it is small either. He simply has no evidence at all, so
he simply assumes it must be small. He prefers Python anyway and can't
imagine that others think differently.

Delphi may not be as popualr as it used to be in the US, but ISTM it is
and has become very popular in other countries, even in some of those
where it is not cheap at all.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without
having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it
too?"
-- Douglas Adams
Roy Lambert

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Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit]
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  Posted: May 25, 2017 4:59 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy

Delphi may not be as popualr as it used to be in the US, but ISTM it is
and has become very popular in other countries, even in some of those
where it is not cheap at all.

Wasn't it the pirated software for development in a couple of countries?

Roy
Roy Lambert

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Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit]
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  Posted: May 25, 2017 5:54 AM   in response to: Roy Lambert in response to: Roy Lambert
Wasn't it the pirated software for development in a couple of countries?

should have read

Wasn't it the pirated software OF CHOICE for development in a couple of countries?

Roy Lambert

Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit]
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  Posted: May 25, 2017 1:40 PM   in response to: Roy Lambert in response to: Roy Lambert
Roy Lambert wrote:

Wasn't it the pirated software for development in a couple of
countries?

should have read

Wasn't it the pirated software OF CHOICE for development in a couple
of countries?


Very likely. I have travelled to the Philippines, and anything pirated
there was quite common. And yet, even they started actually buying
things, including Delphi.
--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler."
-- Albert Einstein (1879-1955)
Roy Lambert

Posts: 1,063
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Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit]
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  Posted: May 26, 2017 12:00 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy

Very likely. I have travelled to the Philippines, and anything pirated
there was quite common. And yet, even they started actually buying
things, including Delphi.

Even the Chinese government are buying a (customised) version of Windows - just proves strange thing still happen in the world.

Roy

Van Swofford

Posts: 391
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Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit]
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  Posted: May 22, 2017 2:22 PM   in response to: Joseph Mitzen in response to: Joseph Mitzen
Joseph Mitzen wrote:

Barry, the argument about Delphi market share has been had multiple
times here. Those of us who argue it is small have already won -
decidedly.

What prize did you win for your efforts? I notice lots of smart people
going on and on and on for the sole purpose of being able to proclaim
that they have won the argument. Good for you! We dummies just don't
care.

Now go away and be quiet while the rest of us go about the business of
making fantastic software with our overpriced and unpopular tools that
do the job quite nicely for us.

Please post follow-ups to comp.delphi-haters-club.

--
Cheers,
Van

"Good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad
judgment." - Will Rogers
Joseph Mitzen

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Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit]
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  Posted: May 22, 2017 3:37 PM   in response to: Van Swofford in response to: Van Swofford
Van Swofford wrote:
Joseph Mitzen wrote:

Barry, the argument about Delphi market share has been had multiple
times here. Those of us who argue it is small have already won -
decidedly.

What prize did you win for your efforts?

Nasty remarks, and high blood pressure.

I notice lots of smart people
going on and on and on for the sole purpose of being able to proclaim
that they have won the argument.

No, in this case they're going on in the vain hope that people will accept reality and be able to make informed decisions. Alas, no good deed goes unpunished.

Now go away and be quiet

So the echo chamber can remain intact? I love Delphi too much for that.

that do the job quite nicely for us.

And that's great, and great to hear. But it can do the job quite nicely for someone even if they don't proclaim publicly that it's as popular as Java. Or as David Heffernan put it, "Delphi doesn't have to be number one to be successful." I don't know why some people have a need to believe that Delphi dominates the marketplace unless they're very insecure with their choice.
Van Swofford

Posts: 391
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Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit]
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  Posted: May 22, 2017 7:44 PM   in response to: Joseph Mitzen in response to: Joseph Mitzen
Joseph Mitzen wrote:

I don't know why some people have
a need to believe that Delphi dominates the marketplace unless
they're very insecure with their choice.

Agreed. I have no idea where Delphi really sits in the market, whether
it is growing or shrinking. I can only say that it works very well for
my needs now. I had a lot of problems with the initial FireMonkey
implementation in XE2 while developing an iOS app, but after 5 years
and a gazillion updates, it is pretty solid now.

--
Cheers,
Van

"Good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad
judgment." - Will Rogers
Dalija Prasnikar

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Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit]
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  Posted: May 23, 2017 1:03 AM   in response to: Joseph Mitzen in response to: Joseph Mitzen
Joseph Mitzen wrote:
Van Swofford wrote:
Joseph Mitzen wrote:

Barry, the argument about Delphi market share has been had multiple
times here. Those of us who argue it is small have already won -
decidedly.

What prize did you win for your efforts?

Nasty remarks, and high blood pressure.

I notice lots of smart people
going on and on and on for the sole purpose of being able to proclaim
that they have won the argument.

No, in this case they're going on in the vain hope that people will accept reality and be able to make informed decisions. Alas, no good deed goes unpunished.

Now go away and be quiet

So the echo chamber can remain intact? I love Delphi too much for that.

that do the job quite nicely for us.

And that's great, and great to hear. But it can do the job quite nicely for someone even if they don't proclaim publicly that it's as popular as Java. Or as David Heffernan put it, "Delphi doesn't have to be number one to be successful." I don't know why some people have a need to believe that Delphi dominates the marketplace unless they're very insecure with their choice.

+1

And the main problem with everyone sticking their heads in the sand is
that some day they may run out of sand and realize Delphi no longer
provides what they need. Because world has moved on and Delphi did not.

There is plenty of COBOL code still around and people working on it...
I just don't want Delphi to became COBOL, one not so fine day.

--
Dalija Prasnikar
https://twitter.com/dalijap
https://plus.google.com/+DalijaPrasnikar
Quentin Correll


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Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit]
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  Posted: May 23, 2017 10:46 AM   in response to: Dalija Prasnikar in response to: Dalija Prasnikar
Dalija,

| I just don't want Delphi to became COBOL, one not so fine day.

Ditto that!

[Remembering programming in RUSH in eons long past.]

--

Q -- XanaNews 1.19.1.372 - 2017-05-23 10:39:51
Arthur Hoornweg

Posts: 408
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Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit]
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  Posted: May 31, 2017 2:05 AM   in response to: Dalija Prasnikar in response to: Dalija Prasnikar
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:

There is plenty of COBOL code still around and people working on it...
I just don't want Delphi to became COBOL, one not so fine day.

Well, Micro Focus (the Cobol company) are doing rather well. They just bought a large part of Hewlett Packard Enterprise. And they own Borland.

Barry McClure

Posts: 32
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Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit]
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  Posted: May 22, 2017 5:23 PM   in response to: Van Swofford in response to: Van Swofford
Many people like you, don't really care if Delphi is popular or not, because they can still make great applications with it.

But you're missing the point. Delphi could never have been as successful as it was back in the 1990's if it weren't for 3rd party developers creating components for it. There were many report components, grid components, database components, TCP components and libraries produced for Delphi in the early years. Could you possibly imagine using Delphi for the past 22 years without using 3rd party components?

What's changed? Many of those developers have stopped developing 3rd party components for Delphi. Why? Because EMB is not selling enough copies of Delphi and the 3rd party developers can no longer make a living at it. They have moved on to C# or Java or to something else.

To me 3rd party developers are like the canary in a coal mine. If they start dropping dead (disappearing), you better wake up and realize something is wrong.

Barry
Van Swofford

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Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit]
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  Posted: May 22, 2017 7:51 PM   in response to: Barry McClure in response to: Barry McClure
Barry McClure wrote:

Many people like you, don't really care if Delphi is popular or not,
because they can still make great applications with it.

But you're missing the point. Delphi could never have been as
successful as it was back in the 1990's if it weren't for 3rd party
developers creating components for it. There were many report
components, grid components, database components, TCP components and
libraries produced for Delphi in the early years. Could you possibly
imagine using Delphi for the past 22 years without using 3rd party
components?

What's changed? Many of those developers have stopped developing 3rd
party components for Delphi. Why? Because EMB is not selling enough
copies of Delphi and the 3rd party developers can no longer make a
living at it. They have moved on to C# or Java or to something else.

To me 3rd party developers are like the canary in a coal mine. If
they start dropping dead (disappearing), you better wake up and
realize something is wrong.

I get your point. But at the same time, I think it is a good thing
that there has been some consolidation in the 3rd party marketplace.
In the exciting days of yore, we had lots of 3rd party developers, many
of whom made a few specialized components, and they couldn't be counted
on to be in business when the next Delphi version was released, so it
was kind of risky to depend on them. As some of the bigger ones
emerged, like Devex and TMS (and Turbopower until their demise), we got
a smaller number of vendors, but they have a fairly large selection of
components of good quality, and we can rely on them to be around for a
while, which makes me more prone to use them in my software. So, I
think it isn't totally a bad thing that the ranks of 3rd party
component vendors have thinned a bit. The ones that are left are
pretty solid.

--
Cheers,
Van

"Good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad
judgment." - Will Rogers
David Keith

Posts: 194
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Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit]
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  Posted: May 23, 2017 8:33 AM   in response to: Van Swofford in response to: Van Swofford
On 5/22/2017 22:51, Van Swofford wrote:
Barry McClure wrote:

I get your point. But at the same time, I think it is a good thing
that there has been some consolidation in the 3rd party marketplace.
In the exciting days of yore, we had lots of 3rd party developers, many
of whom made a few specialized components, and they couldn't be counted
on to be in business when the next Delphi version was released, so it
was kind of risky to depend on them. As some of the bigger ones
emerged, like Devex and TMS (and Turbopower until their demise), we got
a smaller number of vendors, but they have a fairly large selection of
components of good quality, and we can rely on them to be around for a
while, which makes me more prone to use them in my software. So, I
think it isn't totally a bad thing that the ranks of 3rd party
component vendors have thinned a bit. The ones that are left are
pretty solid.

Agreed! And the reason these 3rd party developers have survived - and
thrived, in many cases - is because they ported their D comps to .Net.
Their continued support of their Delphi component lines can perhaps best
be summed up as 'charity, for old times sake'.

Love D, ain't blind...
Barry McClure

Posts: 32
Registered: 9/1/02
Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit]
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  Posted: May 24, 2017 2:49 PM   in response to: Van Swofford in response to: Van Swofford
{quote:title=Van Swofford wrote:}
So, I think it isn't totally a bad thing that the ranks of 3rd party
component vendors have thinned a bit. The ones that are left are
pretty solid.

For the remaining component makers to be "pretty solid" they would have to be gaining more new customers than the number of customers they lose each year. I don't see how this is possible with the declining popularity in Delphi.

Delphi is a very capable product and should be a lot more popular than it is. So what's the problem?
From the charts, its popularity had started dropping almost 10 years ago when the prices started going up. If you could plot the price vs popularity you should see the two lines diverging. As the price goes higher, the popularity goes lower.

I believe EMB has priced Delphi out of the market for the average developer. They need to get a capable version of Delphi into the hands of developers for under $500 if they want any type of market share. (See my previous post with the different SKU's) If they are unwilling to do this, in 5-10 years when programmers talk of "Delphi", they will be thinking car parts. :-(

Barry


PrintDAT! - The 5 Second Report Component
http://www.grebarsys.com
Roy Lambert

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Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit] [Edit]
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  Posted: May 25, 2017 1:41 AM   in response to: Barry McClure in response to: Barry McClure
Barry

I believe EMB has priced Delphi out of the market for the average developer. They need to get a capable version of Delphi into the hands of developers for under $500 if they want any type of market share. (See my previous post with the different SKU's) If they are unwilling to do this, in 5-10 years when programmers talk of "Delphi", they will be thinking car parts. :-(

I think that has certainly occurred, but from reading these forums I feel there are other reasons for the decline. Over the years my gut feel is that the number of complaints about bugs has increased, there are broken promises, and introduction of new features that are not universally well received.

On the money side I just looked in my accounts, unfortunately I switched accounts packages somewhere D2/D3 time so can't easily see how much D1 cost. I do remember it being a lot BUT back then the alternative was interpreted and even more flakey than the BDE so it was worth it. My upgrade to D4 was under £300 so allowing for inflation sub £500 would seem reasonable. However, including the need to upgrade components, it would cost me over £2000.

So what does Delphi offer now to justify the price.

I know Idera (or whoever owns Delphi this week) have Team B holding up their end, and I know its a user forum, but it would have been nice to see some direct input from the owners. Even if its just to prove they know we exist.

Roy Lambert
Markus Humm

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Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit] [Edit]
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  Posted: May 26, 2017 9:47 AM   in response to: Roy Lambert in response to: Roy Lambert
Am 25.05.2017 um 10:41 schrieb Roy Lambert:
Barry

I believe EMB has priced Delphi out of the market for the average developer. They need to get a capable version of Delphi into the hands of developers for under $500 if they want any type of market share. (See my previous post with the different SKU's) If they are unwilling to do this, in 5-10 years when programmers talk of "Delphi", they will be thinking car parts. :-(

I think that has certainly occurred, but from reading these forums I feel there are other reasons for the decline. Over the years my gut feel is that the number of complaints about bugs has increased, there are broken promises, and introduction of new features that are not universally well received.

On the money side I just looked in my accounts, unfortunately I switched accounts packages somewhere D2/D3 time so can't easily see how much D1 cost. I do remember it being a lot BUT back then the alternative was interpreted and even more flakey than the BDE so it was worth it. My upgrade to D4 was under £300 so allowing for inflation sub £500 would seem reasonable. However, including the need to upgrade components, it would cost me over £2000.

So what does Delphi offer now to justify the price.

I know Idera (or whoever owns Delphi this week) have Team B holding up their end, and I know its a user forum, but it would have been nice to see some direct input from the owners. Even if its just to prove they know we exist.

They do know that we exist and they occassionally read or even write
here, but rather seldom as their time is restricted and some of the
discussions here simly evolve in quite strange ways...

What would be more usful would be a full time employee who reads the
technical forums and tries to help a bit there and tries to collect
where the main issues are etc.

Greetings

Markus
Roy Lambert

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Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit] [Edit]
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  Posted: May 26, 2017 11:36 PM   in response to: Markus Humm in response to: Markus Humm
Markus

What would be more usful would be a full time employee who reads the
technical forums and tries to help a bit there and tries to collect
where the main issues are etc.

Strangely enough this seems to be a "main issue"

Roy
Roy Lambert

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Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit]
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  Posted: May 23, 2017 2:47 AM   in response to: Van Swofford in response to: Van Swofford
Van

I think you're kind of missing the point - the vast majority of people on these forums love Delphi and would like to see it prosper.

Roy Lambert

Quentin Correll


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Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit]
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  Posted: May 23, 2017 10:46 AM   in response to: Roy Lambert in response to: Roy Lambert
Roy,

| I think you're kind of missing the point - the vast majority of
| people on these forums love Delphi and would like to see it prosper.

On-the-mark!

--

Q -- XanaNews 1.19.1.372 - 2017-05-23 10:46:24
Van Swofford

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Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit]
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  Posted: May 23, 2017 2:21 PM   in response to: Roy Lambert in response to: Roy Lambert
Roy Lambert wrote:

Van

I think you're kind of missing the point - the vast majority of
people on these forums love Delphi and would like to see it prosper.

Roy Lambert


Hi Roy,

I haven't missed that point. From a business perspective, that's
simply a requirement that a product be profitable or else it is
rightfully headed for the scrap heap. It's the constant wailing and
gnashing of teeth about it that I grow weary of hearing about. Since
Delphi is still on the market, I assume its owners are satisfied with
the business aspects of it, and see no need to spend a lot of time
hashing and rehashing the arguments about what the market share is,
etc. Let's build some apps, have fun doing it, and make some money
from it.

--
Cheers,
Van

"Good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad
judgment." - Will Rogers
Dan Barclay

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Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit]
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  Posted: May 23, 2017 4:04 PM   in response to: Van Swofford in response to: Van Swofford
Van Swofford wrote:
Since
Delphi is still on the market, I assume its owners are satisfied with
the business aspects of it, and see no need to spend a lot of time
hashing and rehashing the arguments about what the market share is,

That conclusion could be perfectly correct, but it's based on incomplete information and possibly a misinterpretation of the business aspects.

Products have a number of stages in their life cycles. An owner with a product in decline, but that is still producing a reasonable amount of cash, could be well satisfied and still have the product fail in a natural death while applying the cash to higher return endeavors.

I'm not saying that's what is happening with Delphi, I'm saying that the conclusion is a leap not based on logic or on all of the information (which we don't have).

I can't speak for anyone else, but I'd feel much more comfortable if it looked like Delphi was attracting newbies and stuffing the pipeline with developers that will replace those falling out the other end. While that could be happening, I haven't seen it myself.

and see no need to spend a lot of time
hashing and rehashing the arguments about what the market share is,

I don't have the complete picture either and I doubt anyone speculating here does (cheerleaders or naysayers). So, you are right about spending a lot of time hashing and rehashing. OTOH, I wouldn't go to sleep on this, nor keep a warm fuzzy feeling that all was well. Maybe it is; maybe it isn't. It's a time to pay attention.

[edit] I also should have mentioned that an alternative to being a cash cow is "renewal", which can occur a the same stage of life. Some evidence of that, some evidence of not. <shrug>

Dan
Van Swofford

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Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit] [Edit]
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  Posted: May 23, 2017 7:57 PM   in response to: Dan Barclay in response to: Dan Barclay
Dan Barclay wrote:

Van Swofford wrote:
Since
Delphi is still on the market, I assume its owners are satisfied
with the business aspects of it, and see no need to spend a lot of
time hashing and rehashing the arguments about what the market
share is,

That conclusion could be perfectly correct, but it's based on
incomplete information and possibly a misinterpretation of the
business aspects.

Products have a number of stages in their life cycles. An owner
with a product in decline, but that is still producing a reasonable
amount of cash, could be well satisfied and still have the product
fail in a natural death while applying the cash to higher return
endeavors.

I'm not saying that's what is happening with Delphi, I'm saying that
the conclusion is a leap not based on logic or on all of the
information (which we don't have).

I can't speak for anyone else, but I'd feel much more comfortable if
it looked like Delphi was attracting newbies and stuffing the
pipeline with developers that will replace those falling out the
other end. While that could be happening, I haven't seen it myself.

and see no need to spend a lot of time
hashing and rehashing the arguments about what the market share is,

I don't have the complete picture either and I doubt anyone
speculating here does (cheerleaders or naysayers). So, you are right
about spending a lot of time hashing and rehashing. OTOH, I
wouldn't go to sleep on this, nor keep a warm fuzzy feeling that all
was well. Maybe it is; maybe it isn't. It's a time to pay attention.

[edit] I also should have mentioned that an alternative to being a
cash cow is "renewal", which can occur a the same stage of life.
Some evidence of that, some evidence of not. <shrug>

Dan

Exactly! And since none of us have even half a clue as to the actual
financials related to the Embarcadero product line, why do we have to
keep going around and around about it? The only thing we can do is to
keep renewing our update subscriptions. All in all, I've been happy
with Delphi and its predecessor TP, for 30 years. We had a rough time
with XE2 and the premature promise of iOS app building, and there have
been times when it's been a little too buggy or a little too
undocumented, but on the whole I've been satisfied with the product.
Each new version brings with it something that makes it better for my
purposes than the last, so I'm a happy camper. Not a cheerleader, mind
you, but happy with the product for my use. So I don't lose sleep at
night worrying if they have the financial stability to still be
updating the software in another 10 or 15 years. I lose enough sleep
worrying that my company will have the financial stability to still be
updating my software in another 2 months, or weeks, or years.

--
Cheers,
Van

"Good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad
judgment." - Will Rogers
Roy Lambert

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Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit] [Edit]
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  Posted: May 23, 2017 11:31 PM   in response to: Van Swofford in response to: Van Swofford
Van

why do we have to
keep going around and around about it?

Because people are passionate about Delphi and don't want to see their favourite development system disappear

The only thing we can do is to
keep renewing our update subscriptions.

Nope - lets keep complaining - at some point the PHBs may just wake up and listen

Roy Lambert
Van Swofford

Posts: 391
Registered: 6/28/03
Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit] [Edit]
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  Posted: May 24, 2017 8:43 AM   in response to: Roy Lambert in response to: Roy Lambert
Roy Lambert wrote:

Because people are passionate about Delphi and don't want to see
their favourite development system disappear.

I don't want to see it disappear, but I am powerless to influence the
economics that would make it disappear, so I'll just shut up now and
let the rest of you argue about it. I'm passionate about my wife.
Delphi is a tool in my toolbox...

Nope - lets keep complaining - at some point the PHBs may just wake
up and listen

PHBs have historically not had ears, just pointy hair. :-)

--
Cheers,
Van

"Good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad
judgment." - Will Rogers
Roy Lambert

Posts: 1,063
Registered: 8/7/01
Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit] [Edit]
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  Posted: May 23, 2017 11:26 PM   in response to: Dan Barclay in response to: Dan Barclay
Dan

Good post. I'd like to add that there's also the point about margin vs number of customers. Most businesses I've ever dealt with at some point accept a drop off in the number of customers to increase the margin on the remaining ones. Somewhere in the process the, whilst the margin per unit is magnificent, the overall margin goes down. Finding the balance point is the game.

Without information from Delphi's owners, past and present, we're unlikely to understand where in that process Delphi is.

Roy Lambert

Dalija Prasnikar

Posts: 2,324
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Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit] [Edit]
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  Posted: May 24, 2017 3:18 AM   in response to: Roy Lambert in response to: Roy Lambert
Roy Lambert wrote:
Dan

Good post. I'd like to add that there's also the point about margin vs number of customers. Most businesses I've ever dealt with at some point accept a drop off in the number of customers to increase the margin on the remaining ones. Somewhere in the process the, whilst the margin per unit is magnificent, the overall margin goes down. Finding the balance point is the game.

Without information from Delphi's owners, past and present, we're unlikely to understand where in that process Delphi is.


Judging from the current pricing and SKU scheme, it is in the process
of squeezing every last drop of cash from existing users.

--
Dalija Prasnikar
https://twitter.com/dalijap
https://plus.google.com/+DalijaPrasnikar
Markus Humm

Posts: 5,062
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Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit] [Edit]
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  Posted: May 24, 2017 9:31 AM   in response to: Dalija Prasnikar in response to: Dalija Prasnikar
Am 24.05.2017 um 12:18 schrieb Dalija Prasnikar:
Roy Lambert wrote:
Dan

Good post. I'd like to add that there's also the point about margin vs number of customers. Most businesses I've ever dealt with at some point accept a drop off in the number of customers to increase the margin on the remaining ones. Somewhere in the process the, whilst the margin per unit is magnificent, the overall margin goes down. Finding the balance point is the game.

Without information from Delphi's owners, past and present, we're unlikely to understand where in that process Delphi is.


Judging from the current pricing and SKU scheme, it is in the process
of squeezing every last drop of cash from existing users.

If that was the goal they wouldn't have offered me to attend a roadshow
event for free which usually costs 40 euros per attendee ;-)
And remember: they needed to pay for the superb food served for lunch!

Greetings

Markus
Dalija Prasnikar

Posts: 2,324
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Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit] [Edit]
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  Posted: May 24, 2017 2:08 PM   in response to: Markus Humm in response to: Markus Humm
Markus Humm wrote:
Am 24.05.2017 um 12:18 schrieb Dalija Prasnikar:
Roy Lambert wrote:
Dan

Good post. I'd like to add that there's also the point about margin vs number of customers. Most businesses I've ever dealt with at some point accept a drop off in the number of customers to increase the margin on the remaining ones. Somewhere in the process the, whilst the margin per unit is magnificent, the overall margin goes down. Finding the balance point is the game.

Without information from Delphi's owners, past and present, we're unlikely to understand where in that process Delphi is.


Judging from the current pricing and SKU scheme, it is in the process
of squeezing every last drop of cash from existing users.

If that was the goal they wouldn't have offered me to attend a roadshow
event for free which usually costs 40 euros per attendee ;-)
And remember: they needed to pay for the superb food served for lunch!

You certainly deserved it :)

But there is difference in marketing roadshows and general attitude (probably
wrong wording - but I cannot think of right one)

For non-enterprise level users Delphi is way too expensive with very little to offer.
They are practically cutting off a whole range of small users in desire to get more
money out of them. Take no-Linux for PRO as the most recent example.

--
Dalija Prasnikar
https://twitter.com/dalijap
https://plus.google.com/+DalijaPrasnikar

Markus Humm

Posts: 5,062
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Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit] [Edit]
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  Posted: May 24, 2017 11:30 PM   in response to: Dalija Prasnikar in response to: Dalija Prasnikar
Am 24.05.2017 um 23:08 schrieb Dalija Prasnikar:


But there is difference in marketing roadshows and general attitude (probably
wrong wording - but I cannot think of right one)

For non-enterprise level users Delphi is way too expensive with very little to offer.
They are practically cutting off a whole range of small users in desire to get more
money out of them. Take no-Linux for PRO as the most recent example.

I agree on that part. They should have made Linux compiler a low priced
add-on for pro.

Greetings

Markus
Mike Margerum

Posts: 583
Registered: 12/1/99
Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit] [Edit]
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  Posted: May 25, 2017 9:28 AM   in response to: Markus Humm in response to: Markus Humm
On 5/25/17 2:30 AM, Markus Humm wrote:
Am 24.05.2017 um 23:08 schrieb Dalija Prasnikar:


But there is difference in marketing roadshows and general attitude (probably
wrong wording - but I cannot think of right one)

For non-enterprise level users Delphi is way too expensive with very little to offer.
They are practically cutting off a whole range of small users in desire to get more
money out of them. Take no-Linux for PRO as the most recent example.

I agree on that part. They should have made Linux compiler a low priced
add-on for pro.

Greetings

Markus

They should open source the compilers + RTL entirely. Charge for the
IDE, Form Designer, VCL, FMX.
Roy Lambert

Posts: 1,063
Registered: 8/7/01
Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit] [Edit]
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  Posted: May 25, 2017 11:07 AM   in response to: Mike Margerum in response to: Mike Margerum
Mike

They should open source the compilers + RTL entirely. Charge for the
IDE, Form Designer, VCL, FMX.

A pic'n'mix would be nice but not for Idera's bottom line

Roy Lambert
Joseph Mitzen

Posts: 388
Registered: 6/9/02
Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit] [Edit]
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  Posted: May 25, 2017 1:37 PM   in response to: Mike Margerum in response to: Mike Margerum
Mike Margerum wrote:
They should open source the compilers + RTL entirely.

Excluding the commercial math tools, is Delphi the last closed source general language left? Oh wait - Powerbuilder.

This is a good idea and one I've floated before. Even C# and Swift have gone open source now. Everyone except Embarcadero realizes people aren't going to hang their fortunes on a proprietary language platform from a single vendor, even if it's backed by Apple or Microsoft. They also realize the value of collaboration.

Charge for the
IDE, Form Designer, VCL, FMX.

I've said that the biggest mistake of FireMonkey (well, other than not naming it MonkeyFire) was making it tied to Embarcadero's products. It should have been language/tool neutral and not tied to an IDE, much like Digia's Qt... or Gtk, or WxWidgets, etc. JetBrains can sell IDEs for significantly cheaper than Embarcadero yet still make a nice profit because they sell them for popular languages and can sell so many more copies. Making FMX vendor-neutral would have vastly opened up the potential customer base. CodeGear got this when they started making tools like "Delphi for PHP". 3rd party dev tool makers also got this when they ported their tools to C#.

Embarcadero just doesn't have the revenue/team size to support an IDE, two languages, two frameworks, a database, etc. They'd probably do better concentrating on just one thing. In that case, it might also have been better to adopt Qt rather than produce FMX , partner with JetBrains rather than rewrite the IDE, or something similar. Concentrate on making/selling the best IDE or the best cross-platform framework and let open source and/or partnerships handle the rest of the "stack" for Delphi. Heck, maybe even have let RemObjects handle the language! Can you imagine THAT?

At this point it's probably way too late and they're just going to ride the current strategy to the end. As David Intersimone put it to me.... "People leave Delphi for C#, people leave C# for Delphi (???), so we just keep doing what we're doing." In short, external reality has no bearing on their internal decisions.
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit] [Edit]
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  Posted: May 25, 2017 2:01 PM   in response to: Joseph Mitzen in response to: Joseph Mitzen
Joseph Mitzen wrote:

Mike Margerum wrote:
They should open source the compilers + RTL entirely.

Excluding the commercial math tools, is Delphi the last closed source
general language left?

How about the MS languages?

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"When a man says he approves of something in principle, it
means he hasn't the slightest intention of carrying it out in
practice."
-- Otto von Bismarck
Joseph Mitzen

Posts: 388
Registered: 6/9/02
Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit] [Edit]
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  Posted: May 25, 2017 6:37 PM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:
Joseph Mitzen wrote:

Mike Margerum wrote:
They should open source the compilers + RTL entirely.

Excluding the commercial math tools, is Delphi the last closed source
general language left?

How about the MS languages?

C# went open source a while ago, along with .NET core. I assume that also covers VB.NET and F#, but I'm not sure.
Rudy Velthuis (...


Posts: 7,688
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit] [Edit]
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  Posted: May 25, 2017 2:06 PM   in response to: Joseph Mitzen in response to: Joseph Mitzen
Joseph Mitzen wrote:

Mike Margerum wrote:
They should open source the compilers + RTL entirely.

Excluding the commercial math tools, is Delphi the last closed source
general language left? Oh wait - Powerbuilder.

This is a good idea and one I've floated before. Even C# and Swift
have gone open source now. Everyone except Embarcadero realizes
people aren't going to hang their fortunes on a proprietary language
platform from a single vendor

Nonsense. These languages come from OS vendors, who have a high stake
in having a platform for which many pieces of software are available.

That was for instance the main reason for Apple to develop Swift,
because Objective-C was simply too awkward to use, or at least that is
what many developers thought. And that was not for macOS, but mainly
for iOS.

Embarcadero does not sell OSes, they make money from development tools.
--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Computer dating is fine, if you're a computer."
-- Rita May Brown.
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit] [Edit]
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  Posted: May 25, 2017 2:12 PM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:

That was for instance the main reason for Apple to develop Swift,
because Objective-C was simply too awkward to use, or at least that is
what many developers thought. And that was not for macOS, but mainly
for iOS.

And C# was (and is) supposed to be a language that is easier to use and
learn than C++. It is certainly better fit for RAD than C++, despite
the existence of certain widgets sets for C++.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"A friendship founded on business is better than a business
founded on friendship." -- John D. Rockefeller (1874-1960)
Joseph Mitzen

Posts: 388
Registered: 6/9/02
Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit] [Edit]
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  Posted: May 25, 2017 6:35 PM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:
Joseph Mitzen wrote:

This is a good idea and one I've floated before. Even C# and Swift
have gone open source now. Everyone except Embarcadero realizes
people aren't going to hang their fortunes on a proprietary language
platform from a single vendor

Nonsense. These languages come from OS vendors, who have a high stake
in having a platform for which many pieces of software are available.

It's not nonsense; essentially every programming language available is controlled by a foundation or open source community today. That's reality. It's also what the market wants. No one's clamoring for more closed-source languages and less control over their tools.

That was for instance the main reason for Apple to develop Swift,
because Objective-C was simply too awkward to use, or at least that is
what many developers thought. And that was not for macOS, but mainly
for iOS.

Correct. But they also chose to open source it, despite being able to dictate to the iOS platform. Open sourcing wasn't simply about market share either, as they released a Linux implementation but not a Windows one.


Embarcadero does not sell OSes, they make money from development tools.

They're trying to make money from development tools in an era when people don't make money from programming languages anymore, but that's another topic. Honestly, I'm not sure what your point is. My point was that billion-dollar multinational companies don't want to risk their infrastructure projects on proprietary single-source vendors, especially now that Microsoft is no longer an 800 pound gorilla. I don't see see how what you wrote disputes that.
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit] [Edit]
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  Posted: May 26, 2017 1:47 AM   in response to: Joseph Mitzen in response to: Joseph Mitzen
Joseph Mitzen wrote:

This is a good idea and one I've floated before. Even C# and Swift
have gone open source now. Everyone except Embarcadero realizes
people aren't going to hang their fortunes on a proprietary
language platform from a single vendor

Nonsense. These languages come from OS vendors, who have a high
stake in having a platform for which many pieces of software are
available.

It's not nonsense; essentially every programming language available
is controlled by a foundation or open source community today.

Perhaps, but the MS and Apple ones were opened because they expect
leverage from it for their OSes.

Embarcadero doesn't have an OS and there is no benefit to be expected
from open sourcing their compilers. Not for Embarcadero and not for
their users.
--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Finagle's Law of Dynamic Negatives: Anything that can go wrong,
will -- at the worst possible moment."
Markus Humm

Posts: 5,062
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Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit] [Edit]
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  Posted: May 26, 2017 9:50 AM   in response to: Joseph Mitzen in response to: Joseph Mitzen
Am 25.05.2017 um 22:37 schrieb Joseph Mitzen:
Mike Margerum wrote:
They should open source the compilers + RTL entirely.

Excluding the commercial math tools, is Delphi the last closed source general language left? Oh wait - Powerbuilder.

No. Windev is there as well and their marketing material is way more
sexy than EMBTs ;-)
And yes, it contains photos... ;-)

Oh and VS .NET source code had to be downloaded piece by piece atm least
years ago, while payd versions of Delphi at least bring their RTL and
GUI framework code along and installs thhis without any hassle...

Greetings

Markus
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit] [Edit]
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  Posted: May 25, 2017 1:43 PM   in response to: Mike Margerum in response to: Mike Margerum
Mike Margerum wrote:

They should open source the compilers + RTL entirely. Charge for the
IDE, Form Designer, VCL, FMX.

Not the compilers, no way! We already have an Open Source compiler with
RTL that tries to be more or less compatible with Delphi, i.e. FPC, and
I wouldn't want it to become like that.
--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

Heller's Law: The first myth of management is that it exists.
Joseph Mitzen

Posts: 388
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Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit] [Edit]
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  Posted: May 25, 2017 6:39 PM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:
Mike Margerum wrote:

They should open source the compilers + RTL entirely. Charge for the
IDE, Form Designer, VCL, FMX.

Not the compilers, no way! We already have an Open Source compiler with
RTL that tries to be more or less compatible with Delphi, i.e. FPC, and
I wouldn't want it to become like that.

Open source does not dictate the development model. Embarcadero doesn't need to accept any code changes it doesn't want into its code base. Forks, of course, would be possible.
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit] [Edit]
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  Posted: May 26, 2017 1:48 AM   in response to: Joseph Mitzen in response to: Joseph Mitzen
Joseph Mitzen wrote:

Forks, of course, would be possible.

Exactly. They have had bad experience with that already, IIRC.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Stopping terrorism is simple. Just quit screwing around with
other people's countries and the terrorists will go home. But
the government of the United States wants to go on screwing
around with other people's countries, refuses to stop, indeed
views it as Manifest Destiny for the United States Government
to persist in screwing around with other people's countries,
and views the inconvenience, increased tax burden, loss of
civil liberties, and even deaths among the American people as
just another cost of doing business."
-- Michael Rivero
Luigi Sandon

Posts: 351
Registered: 10/15/99
Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit] [Edit]
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  Posted: May 31, 2017 6:20 AM   in response to: Mike Margerum in response to: Mike Margerum
They should open source the compilers + RTL entirely. Charge for the
IDE, Form Designer, VCL, FMX.

You know how would have it worked? Someone would bolt Lazarus atop it (or even something like Eclipse), and Embarcadero would not see a dime.

No open source model would work to sustain a company in this space (just look at the demise of JBuilder, no one was going to pay for the advanced features), unless the development tools are the side effects of a more expensive product that sells well.

Just the actual pricing scheme and feature set is appealing to a fraction of developers compared to fifteen--twenty years ago, and trying to cram everything into a single product - the only one that still sells - to justify the always increasing prices, may just make it even less appealing to those who would need just a subset of it - other solutions becomes far more affordable.
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit] [Edit]
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  Posted: May 31, 2017 7:00 AM   in response to: Luigi Sandon in response to: Luigi Sandon
Luigi Sandon wrote:

They should open source the compilers + RTL entirely. Charge for
the IDE, Form Designer, VCL, FMX.

You know how would have it worked? Someone would bolt Lazarus atop it
(or even something like Eclipse), and Embarcadero would not see a
dime.

For instance.

No open source model would work to sustain a company in this space
(just look at the demise of JBuilder, no one was going to pay for the
advanced features), unless the development tools are the side effects
of a more expensive product that sells well.

Just the actual pricing scheme and feature set is appealing to a
fraction of developers compared to fifteen--twenty years ago

I doubt it. There seem to be quite a few newbies around.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Giving birth is like taking your lower lip and forcing it over
your head." - Carol Burnett.
Mike Margerum

Posts: 583
Registered: 12/1/99
Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit] [Edit]
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  Posted: May 31, 2017 10:50 AM   in response to: Luigi Sandon in response to: Luigi Sandon
On 5/31/17 9:20 AM, Luigi Sandon wrote:
They should open source the compilers + RTL entirely. Charge for the
IDE, Form Designer, VCL, FMX.

You know how would have it worked? Someone would bolt Lazarus atop it (or even something like Eclipse), and Embarcadero would not see a dime.

No open source model would work to sustain a company in this space (just look at the demise of JBuilder, no one was going to pay for the advanced features), unless the development tools are the side effects of a more expensive product that sells well.

Just the actual pricing scheme and feature set is appealing to a fraction of developers compared to fifteen--twenty years ago, and trying to cram everything into a single product - the only one that still sells - to justify the always increasing prices, may just make it even less appealing to those who would need just a subset of it - other solutions becomes far more affordable.

I dont see how they could bolt the VCL on since EMB owns that code.
Maybe the LCL.
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit] [Edit]
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  Posted: Jun 1, 2017 5:17 PM   in response to: Mike Margerum in response to: Mike Margerum
Mike Margerum wrote:

On 5/31/17 9:20 AM, Luigi Sandon wrote:
They should open source the compilers + RTL entirely. Charge for
the >> IDE, Form Designer, VCL, FMX.

You know how would have it worked? Someone would bolt Lazarus atop
it (or even something like Eclipse), and Embarcadero would not see
a dime.> >

I dont see how they could bolt the VCL on since EMB owns that code.

In the case of Embarcadero open sourcing the VCL and RTL, someone could
fork it and base Lazarus and the LCL on it.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Coming back to where you started is not the same as never
leaving."
-- Terry Pratchett (A Hat Full of Sky)
Roy Lambert

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Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit] [Edit]
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  Posted: May 25, 2017 1:26 AM   in response to: Markus Humm in response to: Markus Humm
Markus

If that was the goal they wouldn't have offered me to attend a roadshow
event for free which usually costs 40 euros per attendee ;-)
And remember: they needed to pay for the superb food served for lunch!

I've never been to one (I live in the Scottish Highlands and attending would be a three day event for me) but are you telling me they have the audacity to charge people to attend a sales event?

Roy Lambert
Joseph Mitzen

Posts: 388
Registered: 6/9/02
Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit] [Edit]
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  Posted: May 25, 2017 12:43 PM   in response to: Roy Lambert in response to: Roy Lambert
Roy Lambert wrote:
Markus

If that was the goal they wouldn't have offered me to attend a roadshow
event for free which usually costs 40 euros per attendee ;-)
And remember: they needed to pay for the superb food served for lunch!

I've never been to one (I live in the Scottish Highlands and attending would be a three day event for me) but are you telling me they have the audacity to charge people to attend a sales event?

Thanks; I was thinking the same thing. Maybe it's always free and they just told him they were waving a 40 Euro fee as a marketing gimmick? I've never heard of anyone being charged to attend one in the United States. I did hear they sold raffle tickets to pay for the pizza, however. :-(
Markus Humm

Posts: 5,062
Registered: 11/9/03
Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit] [Edit]
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  Posted: May 26, 2017 9:56 AM   in response to: Joseph Mitzen in response to: Joseph Mitzen
Am 25.05.2017 um 21:43 schrieb Joseph Mitzen:
Roy Lambert wrote:
Markus

If that was the goal they wouldn't have offered me to attend a roadshow
event for free which usually costs 40 euros per attendee ;-)
And remember: they needed to pay for the superb food served for lunch!

I've never been to one (I live in the Scottish Highlands and attending would be a three day event for me) but are you telling me they have the audacity to charge people to attend a sales event?

Thanks; I was thinking the same thing. Maybe it's always free and they just told him they were waving a 40 Euro fee as a marketing gimmick? I've never heard of anyone being charged to attend one in the United States. I did hear they sold raffle tickets to pay for the pizza, however. :-(

Hello,

you don't set up a wabpage with several payment options if you want to
give that free to everybody. Makes no sense, only work.

I guess quite a few had paid, but the payment options offered weren't
compatible with out financial department, so I aksed directly what we
can do and then I got a phone call telling me that due to the number of
licences we hold we'll get it for free.

You can believe what you want now, but that's the complete story!

Greetings

Markus
David Erbas-White

Posts: 200
Registered: 10/11/99
Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit] [Edit]
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  Posted: May 26, 2017 10:49 PM   in response to: Joseph Mitzen in response to: Joseph Mitzen
On 5/25/2017 12:43 PM, Joseph Mitzen wrote:

I did hear they sold raffle tickets to pay for the pizza, however. :-(

I can personally confirm that happened several times at events in
southern California, but that was a few years ago. I don't believe I've
seen it in the past couple of years...

David Erbas-White

Joseph Mitzen

Posts: 388
Registered: 6/9/02
Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit] [Edit]
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  Posted: May 26, 2017 11:24 PM   in response to: David Erbas-White in response to: David Erbas-White
David Erbas-White wrote:
On 5/25/2017 12:43 PM, Joseph Mitzen wrote:

I did hear they sold raffle tickets to pay for the pizza, however. :-(

I can personally confirm that happened several times at events in
southern California, but that was a few years ago. I don't believe I've
seen it in the past couple of years...


It looks like these folks got lutefisk instead of pizza:

https://community.embarcadero.com/blogs/entry/delphi-10-2-in-lillestrom-norway
Markus Humm

Posts: 5,062
Registered: 11/9/03
Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit] [Edit]
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  Posted: May 27, 2017 4:27 AM   in response to: Joseph Mitzen in response to: Joseph Mitzen
Am 27.05.2017 um 08:24 schrieb Joseph Mitzen:
David Erbas-White wrote:
On 5/25/2017 12:43 PM, Joseph Mitzen wrote:

I did hear they sold raffle tickets to pay for the pizza, however. :-(

I can personally confirm that happened several times at events in
southern California, but that was a few years ago. I don't believe I've
seen it in the past couple of years...


It looks like these folks got lutefisk instead of pizza:

https://community.embarcadero.com/blogs/entry/delphi-10-2-in-lillestrom-norway

We got a 3 course buffet, some snacks as 2nd breakfast and in the
afternoon some little cakes as well.

Greetings

Markus
Eivind Bakkestuen


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Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit]
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  Posted: May 22, 2017 8:08 PM   in response to: Joseph Mitzen in response to: Joseph Mitzen
... and trying to get into academia.

They're not trying very hard. I know of a university lecturer who was
turned down from being provided academic pricing, because he was honest
when asked what he would use the product for (naturally, the main
usage would be in the classroom!). He has a few personal, open source
tools he's written in older Delphi versions, but because they're
personal and not tied to academics, they flatly refused to sell him an
academic license if he wanted to use that license with his personal
projects.

The sad end result: No sale, no classroom usage, no Delphi in academia.

Now, go into academia, and try to avoid MS products. You'll have
trouble finding time enough to keep batting the offers of free products
away.

--
Eivind Bakkestuen [NDD]
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit]
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  Posted: May 25, 2017 4:04 AM   in response to: Joseph Mitzen in response to: Joseph Mitzen
Joseph Mitzen wrote:

Barry McClure wrote:
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:

Delphi already has a considerable market share, despite the prices
they are currently asking.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Programming is one of the most difficult branches of applied
mathematics; the poorer mathematicians had better remain pure
mathematicians." -- Edsger Dijkstra

Barry, the argument about Delphi market share has been had multiple
times here. Those of us who argue it is small have already won -
decidedly.

Huh?

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Problems cannot be solved at the same level of awareness that
created them."
-- Albert Einstein
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit]
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  Posted: May 25, 2017 4:03 AM   in response to: Barry McClure in response to: Barry McClure
Barry McClure wrote:

Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:

Delphi already has a considerable market share, despite the prices
they are currently asking.

According to TIOBE, as of May 2017 Delphi is ranked 18 out of 20
(2.038%),

I think my position on the value of that index should be clear by now.
It merely shows what they measure, but it does not show popularity, let
alone market share.

So forget it.
--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"I find that most men would rather have their bellies opened
for five hundred dollars than have a tooth pulled for five."
-- Martin H. Fischer
Joseph Mitzen

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Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit]
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  Posted: May 22, 2017 12:41 PM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:
Barry McClure wrote:

Delphi will never get any kind of market share at the prices they are
currently asking.

Delphi already **has** a considerable market share, despite the prices
they are currently asking.

Rudy, for someone who is so smart, such a ridiculous claim is far beneath you.

https://insights.stackoverflow.com/trends?utm_source=so-owned&utm_medium=blog&utm_campaign=trends&utm_content=blog-link&utm_term=state-of-mobile&tags=java%2Cc%2Cc%2B%2B%2Cpython%2Cc%23%2Cphp%2Cdelphi

Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit]
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  Posted: May 25, 2017 4:18 AM   in response to: Joseph Mitzen in response to: Joseph Mitzen
Joseph Mitzen wrote:

Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:
Barry McClure wrote:

Delphi will never get any kind of market share at the prices they
are currently asking.

Delphi already has a considerable market share, despite the prices
they are currently asking.

Rudy, for someone who is so smart, such a ridiculous claim is far
beneath you.

Thanks for calling me smart, but I maintain that the claim is quite
true.

The SO trend doesn't mean a lot. It certainly doesn't mean market
share, so forget that link.

But it shows that people have many questions about Python. Probably
because of the many differences (breaking backward compatibility)
between versions 2.x and 3.x, and because of the many noobs using
Python. Scripting languages are completely en vogue, these days. <g>

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Of all the enemies to public liberty, war is perhaps the most
to be dreaded because it comprises and develops the germ of
every other." -- James Madison
Markus Humm

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Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit]
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  Posted: May 26, 2017 9:58 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Am 25.05.2017 um 13:18 schrieb Rudy Velthuis (TeamB):
Joseph Mitzen wrote:

Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:
Barry McClure wrote:

Delphi will never get any kind of market share at the prices they
are currently asking.

Delphi already has a considerable market share, despite the prices
they are currently asking.

Rudy, for someone who is so smart, such a ridiculous claim is far
beneath you.

Thanks for calling me smart, but I maintain that the claim is quite
true.

The SO trend doesn't mean a lot. It certainly doesn't mean market
share, so forget that link.

But it shows that people have many questions about Python. Probably
because of the many differences (breaking backward compatibility)
between versions 2.x and 3.x, and because of the many noobs using
Python. Scripting languages are completely en vogue, these days. <g>

A colleague of mine recently had an issue with a vendor who claimed that
he'll send Delphi code for his APIs etc. but what he sent then was
"only" Delphi script and the API itsself proved to be quite nonsensical.
That colleague tries to avoid that vendor now for his task at hand.

Greetings

Markus
Joseph Mitzen

Posts: 388
Registered: 6/9/02
Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit]
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  Posted: Jun 4, 2017 11:56 PM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:

Thanks for calling me smart, but I maintain that the claim is quite
true.

The SO trend doesn't mean a lot. It certainly doesn't mean market
share, so forget that link.

The more people using it, the more questions there should be. A steady drop in questions over a period of years would hardly be indicative of a steady or increasing market share, would it? More importantly, Delphi is the only major language that demonstrates this drop.

Every single piece of observational evidence that fails to confirm the notion of "considerable market share" (read: all observational evidence) gets dismissed as not important. Github data, job board data, Stack Overflow data, Reddit data... none of it apparently means anything. The most basic way of describing the scientific method is taking an hypothesis and asking, "What would the world look like if this were true? What would the world look like if this were false?" and then making observations. What do you think the world would look like in which Delphi had "considerable market share"?

I think we all agree Java has considerable market share. Java has significant Github activity, significant job board postings, significant Stack Overflow questions...

https://insights.stackoverflow.com/trends?tags=java%2Cdelphi

...significant amount of commercial books published, a significant amount of Reddit activity (68,315 subscribers to /r/Java vs. 982 for /r/Delphi), etc.

So why is it that every language that one would expect to have high values of these things, actually does have high values of these things, except Delphi?

Like I said, you're far too smart to sincerely believe that every known piece of quantifiable data is uniquely wrong for Delphi and only for Delphi. But you're also far too Rudy to ever concede the point. ;-) And I'm far too much of a professional data analyst to ever be convinced that up is down. For the record, commercial industry analyst firm Redmonk does consider Stack Overflow data a reliable predictor of future language use and they've previously found it correlates well with several other measures. In fact, they have a little language index...

http://sogrady-media.redmonk.com/sogrady/files/2017/03/lang.rank_.117.wm_.png

Again, it looks like Stack Overflow and Github data do tell us reliable information about the real world, doesn't it? Java, Javascript, C#, Python, C++, PHP are all highly popular. Swift has grown remarkably quickly, etc. More obscure languages like Vala and Nim are much lower. In short, this all correlates reasonably well with TIOBE and of course with common sense. Why do you feel it would uniquely fail to measure Delphi's ranking? You can't point at a feature that tracks remarkably well with the conventional understanding of reality and tell me it's broken. If it ranked COBOL and F# as #1 and #2 you'd have a point.
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit]
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  Posted: Jun 5, 2017 5:33 AM   in response to: Joseph Mitzen in response to: Joseph Mitzen
Joseph Mitzen wrote:

Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:

Thanks for calling me smart, but I maintain that the claim is quite
true.

The SO trend doesn't mean a lot. It certainly doesn't mean market
share, so forget that link.

The more people using it, the more questions there should be.

Should there? Please justify that statement. <g>

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"USA Today has come out with a new survey: Apparently three out
of four people make up 75 percent of the population."
-- David Letterman.
Roy Lambert

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Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit]
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  Posted: Jun 5, 2017 6:09 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy

Should there? Please justify that statement. <g>

You are demonstrating a lack of consistency. If you don't need to justify anything why should others?

Please justify your request!

Roy Lambert
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit]
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  Posted: Jun 5, 2017 12:24 PM   in response to: Roy Lambert in response to: Roy Lambert
Roy Lambert wrote:

Rudy

Should there? Please justify that statement. <g>

You are demonstrating a lack of consistency. If you don't need to
justify anything why should others?

I see you didn't notice the <g> at the end.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"One out of every three Americans is suffering from some form of
mental illness. Think of two of your best friends. If they are
OK, then it must be you." -- George Carlin
Roy Lambert

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Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit]
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  Posted: Jun 5, 2017 11:41 PM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy

I see you didn't notice the <g> at the end.

True - sorry

Roy

Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit]
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  Posted: Jun 5, 2017 12:58 PM   in response to: Joseph Mitzen in response to: Joseph Mitzen
Joseph Mitzen wrote:

Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:

Thanks for calling me smart, but I maintain that the claim is quite
true.

The SO trend doesn't mean a lot. It certainly doesn't mean market
share, so forget that link.

The more people using it, the more questions there should be. A
steady drop in questions over a period of years would hardly be
indicative of a steady or increasing market share, would it?

I still see a lot of questions. ISTM that Delphi is actually doing very
well, and has been, since Embarcadero took over.

And I don't know if the number of questions is indicative of
popularity. You seem to assume so. I don't. There may be some kind of
correlation, but I don't know how strong.
--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"I sometimes think that God in creating man somewhat
overestimated his ability."
-- Oscar Wilde
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit]
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  Posted: Jun 7, 2017 3:59 PM   in response to: Joseph Mitzen in response to: Joseph Mitzen
Joseph Mitzen wrote:

The SO trend doesn't mean a lot. It certainly doesn't mean market
share, so forget that link.

The more people using it, the more questions there should be.

For fun, I looked at the page
https://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/delphi
in the Wayback machine.

12 Oct 2011: 655 questions
22 Dec 2011: 12,600 questions
23 Dec 2012: 18,247 questions
24 Dec 2013: 24,279 questions
02 Oct 2014: 28,444 questions
10 Mar 2015: 30,441 questions
10 Mar 2016: 34,875 questions

Today,
07 Jun 2017: 39,166 questions

That is for the general "delphi" tag only. The number of questions
seems to be growing constantly to me.

And yet, I don't think it means much.
--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"The defense policy of the United States is based on a simple
premise: The United States does not start fights. We will never
be an aggressor." -- Ronald Reagan
Dalija Prasnikar

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Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit]
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  Posted: Jun 8, 2017 3:17 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:
Joseph Mitzen wrote:

The SO trend doesn't mean a lot. It certainly doesn't mean market
share, so forget that link.

The more people using it, the more questions there should be.

For fun, I looked at the page
https://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/delphi
in the Wayback machine.

12 Oct 2011: 655 questions
22 Dec 2011: 12,600 questions
23 Dec 2012: 18,247 questions
24 Dec 2013: 24,279 questions
02 Oct 2014: 28,444 questions
10 Mar 2015: 30,441 questions
10 Mar 2016: 34,875 questions

Today,
07 Jun 2017: 39,166 questions

That is for the general "delphi" tag only. The number of questions
seems to be growing constantly to me.

Of course number is growing, all numbers are growing there constantly.
It is meant to be permanent Q/A repository, questions are generally not
deleted (except closed off-topic ones)

But those Delphi numbers are not really great.

Swift - only 3 years old - 150478 questions asked

And even worse numbers - number of asked questions last week:

JavaScript - 6141
Java - 4912
Python - 4668
PHP - 3764
C# - 3518
C++ - 1535
R - 1307
Swift - 1174
C - 805
Objective-C - 384
Ruby - 351
Scala - 323
Kotlin - 121
Delphi - 65
Pascal - 9
FreePascal - 16 (this month)

Yeah, Delphi is soooooo popular....

And yet, I don't think it means much.

It means a lot.

--
Dalija Prasnikar
https://twitter.com/dalijap
https://plus.google.com/+DalijaPrasnikar
Joseph Mitzen

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Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit]
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  Posted: Jun 8, 2017 7:39 PM   in response to: Dalija Prasnikar in response to: Dalija Prasnikar
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:
Of course number is growing, all numbers are growing there constantly.
It is meant to be permanent Q/A repository, questions are generally not
deleted (except closed off-topic ones)

But those Delphi numbers are not really great.

Swift - only 3 years old - 150478 questions asked

And even worse numbers - number of asked questions last week:

JavaScript - 6141
Java - 4912
Python - 4668
PHP - 3764
C# - 3518
C++ - 1535
R - 1307
Swift - 1174
C - 805
Objective-C - 384
Ruby - 351
Scala - 323
Kotlin - 121
Delphi - 65
Pascal - 9
FreePascal - 16 (this month)

Yeah, Delphi is soooooo popular....

Thank you. I do data analysis and business intelligence work now, and that argument about raw numbers from Rudy made my head hurt. :-( What drives me even more crazy is that the 3 million user figure was accepted uncritically around here, even though other sources put C at 2 million and C++ at a little over 4 million and there was no explanation for how it was calculated. If, however, you make an argument that is unflattering to Pascal, it doesn't matter how many different data sources you have, it "doesn't mean much". :-(

Also, Rudy continues to ignore the fact that the Stack Overflow ranking such as you just posted correlates very well with TIOBE, with ranking by Github pull requests, with Google Trends rankings, etc. The rankings themselves are also consistent - does anyone doubt Java and Javascript are the most used languages, that Swift has overtaken Objective-C, etc.? And yet the only thing every single one of these metrics get wrong is Delphi's ranking - for reasons unexplained. It's ridiculous.
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit]
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  Posted: Jun 8, 2017 11:19 PM   in response to: Joseph Mitzen in response to: Joseph Mitzen
Joseph Mitzen wrote:

Dalija Prasnikar wrote:
Of course number is growing, all numbers are growing there
constantly. It is meant to be permanent Q/A repository, questions
are generally not deleted (except closed off-topic ones)

But those Delphi numbers are not really great.

Swift - only 3 years old - 150478 questions asked

And even worse numbers - number of asked questions last week:

JavaScript - 6141
Java - 4912
Python - 4668
PHP - 3764
C# - 3518
C++ - 1535
R - 1307
Swift - 1174
C - 805
Objective-C - 384
Ruby - 351
Scala - 323
Kotlin - 121
Delphi - 65
Pascal - 9
FreePascal - 16 (this month)

Yeah, Delphi is soooooo popular....

Thank you. I do data analysis and business intelligence work now, and
that argument about raw numbers from Rudy made my head hurt. :-( What
drives me even more crazy is that the 3 million user figure was
accepted uncritically around here, even though other sources put C at
2 million and C++ at a little over 4 million and there was no
explanation for how it was calculated.

Embarcadero can simply count licenses. That is pretty easy (for them).

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"When you start off by telling those who disagree with you that
they are not merely in error but in sin, how much of a dialogue
do you expect ?"" -- Thomas Sowell
Roy Lambert

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Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit]
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  Posted: Jun 8, 2017 11:58 PM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy

Embarcadero can simply count licenses. That is pretty easy (for them).

I wonder, using that approach, how many users I, personally, would be?

Roy Lambert
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit]
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  Posted: Jun 9, 2017 9:49 AM   in response to: Roy Lambert in response to: Roy Lambert
Roy Lambert wrote:

Rudy

Embarcadero can simply count licenses. That is pretty easy (for
them).

I wonder, using that approach, how many users I, personally, would be?

If they are all on your name (e.g. if you upgraded, they must be),
probably just one.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Just erotic. Nothing kinky. It's the difference between
using a feather and using a chicken."
-- Terry Pratchett (Eric)
Roy Lambert

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Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit]
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  Posted: Jun 10, 2017 12:37 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy

If they are all on your name (e.g. if you upgraded, they must be),
probably just one.

Whilst, thankfully for the sake of the world, there is only one of me I would expect multiple entries in their database - users ID + version - I know I had a number of entries because I used to receive email to each of them - I had changed email addresses between (I think) D6 & D2006

So for a while at least I was at least two users.

Roy
Joseph Mitzen

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Re: Posted plans for Delphi Linux support cut out smaller developers [Edit]
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  Posted: Jun 11, 2017 6:11 PM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:

Embarcadero can simply count licenses. That is pretty easy (for them).

But then you can't start adding in estimates for piracy, free editions, people still using Delphi 7, etc. and bump the figure up astronomically for maximum effect in press releases.

From Marco Cantu's blog, 2007:

As already reported by Chris Bensen in his blog, Micheal Swindell has reported some official figures of the size of the Delphi community. Over in the non.technical newsgroup (open his message dated 17 Aug, 20:46), CodeGear Product Manager shared
numbers based on official surveys (and not on the internal company sales and registration data, which is a well-kept secret):

Delphi has a developer population of approx 1.75 million users worldwide in 2006. Delphi has 15% IDE marketshare overall (7.7% ranked out of 100%) and is the #2 Windows IDE and the #4 IDE overall.

There isn't much to add... If I could only sell a new book to one in a hundred, that will be 17 thousand copies!

I'm reminded of the fundamentalist Christian sociologist who surveyed heterosexual people at a Church social gathering and homosexual people at a free STD clinic and then released a paper reporting that homosexual people have far more sex partners and STDs than heterosexual people. :-( He was ultimately stripped of his credentials. Fortunately for Mr. Swindell, he has no credentials to be stripped of.

Just over two years later in an e-week article he decided to raise the figure:

Swindell said the community of Delphi and C++Builder developers continues to grow. In 2006 there were 1.75 million Delphi developers and now there are more than 2 million, he said.

He has also "explained":

Actually its not licenses, it's unique users in 2006 not necessarily
licenses or more specifically not necessarily paid licenses- ie there
is some piracy in there and free editions as well. 1.75m is # of
active developers using Delphi.

Also,

We have very detailed license sold statistics, and we also have detailed
licenses registered and activated statistics. So we can tell how many
purchased vs how many "used", or at least installed and activated. It is
proprietary data however. We use external analyst firms for general
marketshare data and user populations, which we can quote publicly. However,
market data includes all active users - those who have recently purchased
along with those haven't upgraded in years and even pirated copies

So in other words, it's probably the sum figure of anyone who ever bought a copy of Delphi, with some inflationary estimates thrown in, much as the Catholic Church counts everyone baptized, until they die, as a Catholic. People who stop practicing or leave the faith are just "lapsed Catholics".


He shows no ability to sanity check his incredible figures:

Think of it this way, 15% of developers use a Delphi IDE in 2006 - but some
developers use more than one IDE so there is duplication, and the total is
higher than 100%. Normalized to 100% share, Delphi is about 7.7% (population
totaling 100%).

Meanwhile, I read about the question of how many developers in the world recently that focused on a presentation by the CEO of Github. He rejected the 20 million figure because he said there were 21 million Github accounts "and we can't have more users than there are programmers". Unlike Mr. Swindell, he noted that last year they had 1 million Atom users and this year 2 million and dismissed it as absurd that 10% of the world's developers used their editor. His observations of reality have led him to believe the number of developers is much higher, possibly as high as 35 million.

Others have pointed out that Swindell appears to be estimating developers and not license holders, which requires even more guesswork. Again I'm reminded of the Catholic League, which found a unique way to inflate its membership numbers. It decided that the spouses of each of its members are members too, despite not paying dues and possibly not even being Catholic. Since they had no data on which members were married they simply assumed they all were and multiplied their actual dues-paying membership by two and published the inflated figure instead. :-)

Embarcadero's PR division originally worded their marketing with a diplomatic "Over 3.2 million developers worldwide use our tools". Once people began claiming they said there were 3 million Delphi developers, the press releases changed the wording to then claim 3 million Delphi developers. Idera's initial statement about "over 10,000 customers" really took the wind out of their sails. They did try to add the claim again to the web page, I complained and (coincidentally?) it got removed again.

Delphi presence in the Stack Overflow survey, even with heavy promotion of it from EMBT in 2016, was only 0.78%. Embarcadero Insider said the real figure used inside EMBT is 50K - 150K worldwide, and the Stack Overflow survey results agree with the lower range of that figure. How many of those are paying customers is another question. CodeGear sold for $30 million. If we very charitably assume it's doubled in value since then, $60 million / $400 Delphi PRO subscription = 150K, which again is within Embarcadero Insider's figure.

Also, I'm guessing Swindell's numbers are off based on the fact that poor Marco and Nick were never able to retire on book sales to those three million users. ;-)

Edited by: Joseph Mitzen on Jun 11, 2017 6:11 PM

Edited by: Joseph Mitzen on Jun 11, 2017 6:12 PM