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Thread: Idera's acquisition of Embarcadero Technologies?



Permlink Replies: 167 - Last Post: May 2, 2016 5:24 AM Last Post By: eric buysse
Guenther Schoch

Posts: 13
Registered: 10/14/99
Idera's acquisition of Embarcadero Technologies?
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  Posted: Sep 21, 2015 4:43 AM
Hi

Does anyone knows more about this news.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/09/17/sponsored-mmvolume-idUSL1N11N1L820150917
"Jefferies is also leading a US$425m covenant-lite credit to back Idera's acquisition of Embarcadero Technologies. Idera is backed by TA Associates. The deal, which launches on Thursday, includes a US$25m revolving credit, a US$300m first-lien term loan and a US$100m second-lien term loan."

What would that mean for Delphi. As Idera seems to be an "only database focused company".

regards

Günther

www.gs-soft.com
Kim Madsen

Posts: 339
Registered: 12/13/99
Re: Idera's acquisition of Embarcadero Technologies?
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  Posted: Sep 21, 2015 5:00 AM   in response to: Guenther Schoch in response to: Guenther Schoch
As Idera seems to be an "only database focused company".

As Embarcadero was originally.
On one side always "interesting" what it brings to the table (and what
it takes away).
On the other side not a surprise I suppose, as the previous owners of
Embarcadero Tech. is a huge private fund, which primary purpose in
buying any companies, is to make them float and sell them with a profit.

Id say they have made a good profit out of the CodeGear buy, while
seemingly making CodeGear profitable as Embarcadero.

But I suppose we will have to get used to a new name for the products.

best regards
Kim Madsen/C4D
www.components4developers.com
n-tier products


Den 9/21/2015 kl. 13:43 skrev Guenther Schoch:

Hi

Does anyone knows more about this news.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/09/17/sponsored-mmvolume-idUSL1N11N1L820150917
"Jefferies is also leading a US$425m covenant-lite credit to back Idera's acquisition of Embarcadero Technologies. Idera is backed by TA Associates. The deal, which launches on Thursday, includes a US$25m revolving credit, a US$300m first-lien term loan and a US$100m second-lien term loan."

What would that mean for Delphi. As Idera seems to be an "only database focused company".

regards

Günther

www.gs-soft.com
Guenther Schoch

Posts: 13
Registered: 10/14/99
Re: Idera's acquisition of Embarcadero Technologies?
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  Posted: Sep 21, 2015 5:26 AM   in response to: Kim Madsen in response to: Kim Madsen
my understanding is such deals is:

Given a company producing ships and cars. This company gets sold to a company producing cars.
Then normally the car areas are merged an the ship production is sold further to pay for the acquisition.

Perhaps I am completely wrong.

regards

Günther

www.gs-soft.com
Alexandre Machado

Posts: 1,682
Registered: 8/10/13
Re: Idera's acquisition of Embarcadero Technologies?
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  Posted: Sep 21, 2015 8:09 PM   in response to: Guenther Schoch in response to: Guenther Schoch
Perhaps I am completely wrong.

I think you are. Embarcadero was a DB tools only company when it bought CodeGear from Borland. The same thing is happening now.
Michael Thuma

Posts: 102
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Re: Idera's acquisition of Embarcadero Technologies?
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  Posted: Sep 22, 2015 6:10 AM   in response to: Guenther Schoch in response to: Guenther Schoch
They will very likely buy access to the distribution channels consolidated once.

Guenther Schoch wrote:
my understanding is such deals is:

Given a company producing ships and cars. This company gets sold to a company producing cars.
Then normally the car areas are merged an the ship production is sold further to pay for the acquisition.

Perhaps I am completely wrong.

regards

Günther

www.gs-soft.com

--
Delphi Programming is fun. Hilarious.
Nick Hodges

Posts: 2,414
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: Idera's acquisition of Embarcadero Technologies?
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  Posted: Sep 21, 2015 7:45 AM   in response to: Guenther Schoch in response to: Guenther Schoch
Guenther Schoch wrote:

Hi

Does anyone knows more about this news.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/09/17/sponsored-mmvolume-idUSL1N11N1L820150917
"Jefferies is also leading a US$425m covenant-lite credit to back
Idera's acquisition of Embarcadero Technologies. Idera is backed by
TA Associates. The deal, which launches on Thursday, includes a
US$25m revolving credit, a US$300m first-lien term loan and a US$100m
second-lien term loan."

That's a really weird way to find out about it, if that is indeed what
is happening.


--
Nick
Delphi Programming is Fun

Brandon Staggs

Posts: 633
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Re: Idera's acquisition of Embarcadero Technologies?
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  Posted: Sep 21, 2015 9:30 AM   in response to: Nick Hodges in response to: Nick Hodges
"Nick Hodges" wrote on Mon, 21 Sep 2015 07:45:26 -0700:

That's a really weird way to find out about it, if that is indeed what
is happening.

Indeed.

--
Brandon Staggs
StudyLamp Software LLC
http://www.studylamp.com
Robert Dawson

Posts: 211
Registered: 7/28/00
Re: Idera's acquisition of Embarcadero Technologies?
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  Posted: Sep 21, 2015 12:22 PM   in response to: Nick Hodges in response to: Nick Hodges
"Nick Hodges" <nickhodges at gmail dot com> wrote

That's a really weird way to find out about it, if that is indeed what
is happening.

Not really--it's perhaps a 'leak' in that neither Embarcadero nor Idera's
site has a relevant press release. But the fact that it's in a story on
reuters makes a lot more sense than it showing up in some
development-related source. The doings of private capital are a different
world, and not that many people report on it.

I find it ambiguous that the deal ''launches on Thursday." That could mean a
signing, or only that formal negotiations commence (eg, its not a done
deal).

Meaning for Delphi absolutely unknowable--even assuming the deal does go
through.

bobD
Nick Hodges

Posts: 2,414
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Re: Idera's acquisition of Embarcadero Technologies?
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  Posted: Sep 21, 2015 12:25 PM   in response to: Robert Dawson in response to: Robert Dawson
Robert Dawson wrote:

I find it ambiguous that the deal ''launches on Thursday." That could
mean a signing, or only that formal negotiations commence (eg, its
not a done deal).

I tend to agree. That was a strange phrasing.

--
Nick
Delphi Programming is Fun
Robert Dawson

Posts: 211
Registered: 7/28/00
Re: Idera's acquisition of Embarcadero Technologies?
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  Posted: Sep 21, 2015 1:04 PM   in response to: Nick Hodges in response to: Nick Hodges
"Nick Hodges" wrote
Robert Dawson wrote:

I find it ambiguous that the deal ''launches on Thursday." [...]

I tend to agree. That was a strange phrasing.

Given that the jist of the story is about business picking up for deal
negotiators/financiers, I take it it probably means serious negotiations are
commencing and a deal-assembler/broker chosen. zzzzzzCould take a while.

bobD
Asbjørn Heid

Posts: 267
Registered: 11/12/12
Re: Idera's acquisition of Embarcadero Technologies?
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  Posted: Sep 21, 2015 1:57 PM   in response to: Robert Dawson in response to: Robert Dawson
Robert Dawson wrote:
I find it ambiguous that the deal ''launches on Thursday."

Maybe they want to see if the deal is a flop before signing? :P

- Asbjørn
Guenther Schoch

Posts: 13
Registered: 10/14/99
Re: Idera's acquisition of Embarcadero Technologies?
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  Posted: Sep 22, 2015 2:02 AM   in response to: Nick Hodges in response to: Nick Hodges
That's a really weird way to find out about it, if that is indeed what
is happening.

I assume as well that the deal is not yet fixed. But more of a concern is the 100% bank credit. Means later the business is controlled by the finances. Only short term success will be in the focus.

But we will see.

Günther
David Champion


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Re: Idera's acquisition of Embarcadero Technologies?
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  Posted: Sep 21, 2015 2:34 PM   in response to: Guenther Schoch in response to: Guenther Schoch
Looks like Idera are broadening their product scope beyond Application Performance Management.

This looks like the guy who's driving it
https://www.linkedin.com/pub/josh-stephens/1/21b/aa1
David Champion


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Re: Idera's acquisition of Embarcadero Technologies?
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  Posted: Sep 21, 2015 2:50 PM   in response to: David Champion in response to: David Champion
Or not, since he finished in April this year.

Chief Strategy Officer
Idera Software
December 2014 – April 2015 (5 months)Austin, Texas Area
David Champion


Posts: 9
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Re: Idera's acquisition of Embarcadero Technologies?
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  Posted: Sep 22, 2015 6:37 AM   in response to: David Champion in response to: David Champion
These are the product areas that overlap according to the Embarcadero All-Access Competitive Matrix

Idera SQL Diagnostic Manager <=> Embarcadero Performance Center
Idera SQL Change Manager <=> Embarcadero Change Manager
Idera SQL Diagnostic Manager <=> Embarcadero DB Optimizer
Robert Dawson

Posts: 211
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Re: Idera's acquisition of Embarcadero Technologies?
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  Posted: Sep 22, 2015 8:15 AM   in response to: David Champion in response to: David Champion
<David Champion> wrote in message news:733130 at forums dot embarcadero dot com...
These are the product areas that overlap according to the Embarcadero
All-Access Competitive Matrix

Idera SQL Diagnostic Manager <=> Embarcadero Performance Center
Idera SQL Change Manager <=> Embarcadero Change Manager
Idera SQL Diagnostic Manager <=> Embarcadero DB Optimizer

First thing that occured to me as well. Market consolidation for vendors of
3rd party database and data modeling tools. No real overlap on the
application development side.

bobD
Terje Bergesen

Posts: 2
Registered: 2/11/99
Re: Idera's acquisition of Embarcadero Technologies?
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  Posted: Sep 23, 2015 4:49 AM   in response to: Robert Dawson in response to: Robert Dawson
Robert Dawson wrote:

First thing that occured to me as well. Market consolidation for vendors of
3rd party database and data modeling tools. No real overlap on the
application development side.

I agree with this assessment. Idera looks to be strong on the MS SQL side, but not so on the Oracle side. I'd bet the first thing coming out of this is product re-branding, many of them to "Oracle Edition" or similar. Later a product consolidation to a single code base.

If this deals happens, It would not surprise me to see Delphi change owners in the not too distant future. Idera is a DB company, they'll probably (if they can) try to flog Delphi.
Gilbert Padilla

Posts: 315
Registered: 3/8/04
Re: Idera's acquisition of Embarcadero Technologies?
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  Posted: Sep 23, 2015 8:12 AM   in response to: Terje Bergesen in response to: Terje Bergesen
Terje Bergesen" wrote in message

If this deals happens, It would not surprise me to see Delphi change
owners in the not too distant future. Idera is a DB company, they'll
probably (if they can) try to flog Delphi.

What is the value of Delphi at this time?
Codegear was sold for 23 m.
Phillip Woon

Posts: 184
Registered: 9/30/99
Re: Idera's acquisition of Embarcadero Technologies?
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  Posted: Sep 21, 2015 10:03 PM   in response to: Guenther Schoch in response to: Guenther Schoch
Guenther Schoch wrote:
Hi

Does anyone knows more about this news.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/09/17/sponsored-mmvolume-idUSL1N11N1L820150917
"Jefferies is also leading a US$425m covenant-lite credit to back Idera's acquisition of Embarcadero Technologies. Idera is backed by TA Associates. The deal, which launches on Thursday, includes a US$25m revolving credit, a US$300m first-lien term loan and a US$100m second-lien term loan."

What would that mean for Delphi. As Idera seems to be an "only database focused company".

regards

Günther

www.gs-soft.com

Perhaps all they want is the database side of the business?
Rob Uttley

Posts: 4
Registered: 11/15/01
Re: Idera's acquisition of Embarcadero Technologies?
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  Posted: Sep 21, 2015 10:25 PM   in response to: Guenther Schoch in response to: Guenther Schoch
With any luck, given that they've 'acquired' Embarcadero, they'll keep that name too.

This regular owner-name change doesn't do Delphi any favours in the marketplace, there's no wonder a core group of people perceive it to be dead or having disappeared.

Borland, Inprise, Borland, CodeGear, Embarcadero.... now another name and another owner? sigh Let's hope this is a positive change anyway, if it comes to pass.
David Champion


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Registered: 11/29/01
Re: Idera's acquisition of Embarcadero Technologies?
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  Posted: Sep 22, 2015 3:22 AM   in response to: Rob Uttley in response to: Rob Uttley
Rob Uttley wrote:
With any luck, given that they've 'acquired' Embarcadero, they'll keep that name too.

Depends who has the stronger brand name, I dont think they will remain as 2 separate businesses

Website global ranking at Alexa

Embarcadero = 21,230 http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/embarcadero.com
Idera = 155,755 http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/idera.com
David Champion


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Re: Idera's acquisition of Embarcadero Technologies?
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  Posted: Sep 22, 2015 3:30 AM   in response to: David Champion in response to: David Champion
David Champion wrote:
Rob Uttley wrote:
With any luck, given that they've 'acquired' Embarcadero, they'll keep that name too.
How about a fusion => Embarcidera
Dominique Willems

Posts: 588
Registered: 10/26/99
Re: Idera's acquisition of Embarcadero Technologies?
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  Posted: Sep 22, 2015 4:34 AM   in response to: David Champion in response to: David Champion
David Champion wrote:
How about a fusion => Embarcidera

Sounds like the tail part of the inevitable future scornful moniker
Borincodembarcidera. ;)
Dalija Prasnikar

Posts: 2,280
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Re: Idera's acquisition of Embarcadero Technologies?
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  Posted: Sep 22, 2015 7:21 AM   in response to: Dominique Willems in response to: Dominique Willems
Dominique Willems wrote:
David Champion wrote:
How about a fusion => Embarcidera

Sounds like the tail part of the inevitable future scornful moniker
Borincodembarcidera. ;)

Good one ;-)

--
Dalija Prasnikar
Van Swofford

Posts: 389
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Re: Idera's acquisition of Embarcadero Technologies?
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  Posted: Sep 22, 2015 7:43 AM   in response to: Dominique Willems in response to: Dominique Willems
Dominique Willems wrote:

David Champion wrote:
How about a fusion => Embarcidera

Sounds like the tail part of the inevitable future scornful moniker
Borincodembarcidera. ;)

Isn't that Borincodembarcidera 10 Seattle?

--
Cheers,
Van

"Good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad
judgment." - Will Rogers
Dominique Willems

Posts: 588
Registered: 10/26/99
Re: Idera's acquisition of Embarcadero Technologies?
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  Posted: Sep 22, 2015 8:34 AM   in response to: Van Swofford in response to: Van Swofford
Van Swofford wrote:
Isn't that Borincodembarcidera 10 Seattle?

You forgot Delphi.
Van Swofford

Posts: 389
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Re: Idera's acquisition of Embarcadero Technologies?
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  Posted: Sep 22, 2015 8:49 AM   in response to: Dominique Willems in response to: Dominique Willems
Dominique Willems wrote:

Van Swofford wrote:
Isn't that Borincodembarcidera 10 Seattle?

You forgot Delphi.

May it rest in peace....

--
Cheers,
Van

"Good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad
judgment." - Will Rogers
Dominique Willems

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Re: Idera's acquisition of Embarcadero Technologies?
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  Posted: Sep 22, 2015 8:55 AM   in response to: Van Swofford in response to: Van Swofford
Van Swofford wrote:
May it rest in peace....

LOL!
Angel Martinez

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Re: Idera's acquisition of Embarcadero Technologies?
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  Posted: Sep 24, 2015 8:10 AM   in response to: Van Swofford in response to: Van Swofford

Isn't that Borincodembarcidera 10 Seattle?

--
Cheers,
Van

I can just imagine hearing Peyton Manning sound this off before he hikes the ball!

--
Angel
Jolyon Direnko-...

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Re: Idera's acquisition of Embarcadero Technologies?
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  Posted: Sep 22, 2015 1:08 PM   in response to: Dominique Willems in response to: Dominique Willems
Let me fix that for ya:

Borincodembarcidera*gear*

:)
Andrea Bearzi

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Re: Idera's acquisition of Embarcadero Technologies?
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  Posted: Oct 23, 2015 4:01 AM   in response to: Dominique Willems in response to: Dominique Willems
Dominique Willems wrote:
David Champion wrote:
How about a fusion => Embarcidera

Sounds like the tail part of the inevitable future scornful moniker
Borincodembarcidera. ;)

ROTFL :D
Ralf Stocker

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Re: Idera's acquisition of Embarcadero Technologies?
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  Posted: Sep 22, 2015 3:23 AM   in response to: Guenther Schoch in response to: Guenther Schoch
-Borland
-Inprise
-Borland
-Codegear
-Embarcadero
-Idera

1. Who cares? ;-)
2. Don't use company names in your namespaces / code!
Arnaud Bouchez

Posts: 137
Registered: 8/2/15
Re: Idera's acquisition of Embarcadero Technologies?
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  Posted: Sep 22, 2015 7:50 AM   in response to: Ralf Stocker in response to: Ralf Stocker
Ralf Stocker wrote:
2. Don't use company names in your namespaces / code!

Never ever!
Farshad Mohajeri

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Registered: 12/28/06
Re: Idera's acquisition of Embarcadero Technologies?
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  Posted: Sep 22, 2015 3:39 PM   in response to: Ralf Stocker in response to: Ralf Stocker
Ralf Stocker wrote:
-Borland
-Inprise
-Borland
-Codegear
-Embarcadero
-Idera

1. Who cares? ;-)
2. Don't use company names in your namespaces / code!

Also don't use company names in your registry settings.
Alexandre Machado

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Re: Idera's acquisition of Embarcadero Technologies?
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  Posted: Sep 22, 2015 4:31 PM   in response to: Farshad Mohajeri in response to: Farshad Mohajeri
Also don't use company names in your registry settings.

I think this is the Microsoft recommendation, not something that went out of nothing.
Besides that, product names also change in time as we all know well. If you can't use company names nor product names in Windows registry, what you should use instead? GUIDs? ;-)
Markus Humm

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Re: Idera's acquisition of Embarcadero Technologies?
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  Posted: Sep 23, 2015 11:16 AM   in response to: Alexandre Machado in response to: Alexandre Machado
Am 23.09.2015 um 01:31 schrieb Alexandre Machado:
Also don't use company names in your registry settings.

I think this is the Microsoft recommendation, not something that went out of nothing.
Besides that, product names also change in time as we all know well. If you can't use company names nor product names in Windows registry, what you should use instead? GUIDs? ;-)

If you want to hinder users to easily find your keys: yes! ;-)

Greetings

Markus
Eliseo Gonzalez...

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Re: Idera's acquisition of Embarcadero Technologies?
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  Posted: Sep 22, 2015 7:20 AM   in response to: Guenther Schoch in response to: Guenther Schoch
Well, this kind of news could does away with some things that had been won in the era of EMBT, more than one developers will jump of ship again and more discussions about the future of Delphi.

This will be a breeding ground for Delphi Haters. puff....

Have a good day.

PS. Sorry for my bad english.....
Nick Hodges

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  Posted: Sep 22, 2015 7:43 AM   in response to: Eliseo Gonzalez... in response to: Eliseo Gonzalez...
Eliseo Gonzalez Nieto wrote:


Well, this kind of news could does away with some things that had
been won in the era of EMBT

Let's wait to see what happens before we write off Delphi yet again.

--
Nick
Delphi Programming is Fun
Eliseo Gonzalez...

Posts: 7
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  Posted: Sep 22, 2015 8:15 AM   in response to: Nick Hodges in response to: Nick Hodges
Nick Hodges wrote:
Eliseo Gonzalez Nieto wrote:


Well, this kind of news could does away with some things that had
been won in the era of EMBT

Let's wait to see what happens before we write off Delphi yet again.

--
Nick
Delphi Programming is Fun

Of course Nick, I am with Delphi forever.

Regards
Dominique Willems

Posts: 588
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  Posted: Sep 22, 2015 8:35 AM   in response to: Eliseo Gonzalez... in response to: Eliseo Gonzalez...
Eliseo Gonzalez Nieto wrote:
Of course Nick, I am with Delphi forever.

Delphi is more like a country than a product. You're invested in it,
you're attached to it, but you rarely like its government.
Eliseo Gonzalez...

Posts: 7
Registered: 3/4/00
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  Posted: Sep 22, 2015 8:49 AM   in response to: Dominique Willems in response to: Dominique Willems
Dominique Willems wrote:
Eliseo Gonzalez Nieto wrote:
Of course Nick, I am with Delphi forever.

Delphi is more like a country than a product. You're invested in it,
you're attached to it, but you rarely like its government.

Well, it is simple, I don't like to pay taxes, if I do not pay, there is no money to city services.

But, I love my city.

Regards
Dominique Willems

Posts: 588
Registered: 10/26/99
Re: Idera's acquisition of Embarcadero Technologies?
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  Posted: Sep 22, 2015 8:56 AM   in response to: Eliseo Gonzalez... in response to: Eliseo Gonzalez...
Eliseo Gonzalez Nieto wrote:
Well, it is simple, I don't like to pay taxes, if I do not pay, there
is no money to city services.

Absolutely. But I like my taxes to be invested in the services, not the
elected officials. :)
Eliseo Gonzalez...

Posts: 7
Registered: 3/4/00
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  Posted: Sep 22, 2015 9:08 AM   in response to: Dominique Willems in response to: Dominique Willems
Dominique Willems wrote:
Eliseo Gonzalez Nieto wrote:
Well, it is simple, I don't like to pay taxes, if I do not pay, there
is no money to city services.

Absolutely. But I like my taxes to be invested in the services, not the
elected officials. :)

That is why it is a big problem, everything has two sides. The problem is, which side am I?

Regards :)
Arnaud Bouchez

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Registered: 8/2/15
Re: Idera's acquisition of Embarcadero Technologies?
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  Posted: Sep 22, 2015 7:49 AM   in response to: Guenther Schoch in response to: Guenther Schoch
When a company is acquired, it is usual to merge products and resources. It is called "market consolidation". They may cut office, marketing, accounting or HR. I hope they would focus on research (they are making software, so need to produce IP). Perhaps the set of SQL tools would be merged, but I did not find any corresponding tool like Delphi in Itera's catalog.

I guess three possibilities:

1. Management would like to focus on SQL tools, then get rid of Delphi, possibility by selling it to another company searching for a similar tool in their own catalog. I doubt they would ever release it as Open Source (what would be their benefit?).

2. Management identified Delphi as a gem, with potential (as we all are convinced, here), so they make it the first of a new software branch, dedicated to cross-platform development tools. Perhaps changing a bit the Delphi development orientation, and in this context I hope focusing on the compiler and IDE, and trusting/encouraging the Delphi community and (closed or open) ecosystem, as for most other dev platforms (even MS did change its policy, and publish a lot of source code).

3. Something else. Ask your crystal ball. ;)

See http://blog.synopse.info/post/2015/09/21/Embarcadero-bought-by
Guenther Schoch

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Registered: 10/14/99
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  Posted: Sep 22, 2015 8:12 AM   in response to: Arnaud Bouchez in response to: Arnaud Bouchez
commercially seen it makes not too much sense (get all that money from the bank to buy Embarcadero having a rather limited yearly turnover). Very strange. But for sure the bankers behind the deal do not want to invest to much into R&D.
Gilbert Padilla

Posts: 315
Registered: 3/8/04
Re: Idera's acquisition of Embarcadero Technologies?
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  Posted: Sep 22, 2015 8:25 AM   in response to: Arnaud Bouchez in response to: Arnaud Bouchez
3. Something else. Ask your crystal ball. ;)

Delphi price goes down 70% and becomes a popular development tool once again
;)
Dominique Willems

Posts: 588
Registered: 10/26/99
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  Posted: Sep 22, 2015 8:36 AM   in response to: Gilbert Padilla in response to: Gilbert Padilla
Gilbert Padilla wrote:
Delphi price goes down 70% and becomes a popular development tool
once again ;)

Gilbert for president!
cameron cole

Posts: 1
Registered: 2/21/00
Re: Idera's acquisition of Embarcadero Technologies?
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  Posted: Sep 22, 2015 9:34 AM   in response to: Dominique Willems in response to: Dominique Willems
Hard to know for sure but many deals like these tend to borrow the purchase price and attach the loan to the company being bought. Profits from said company pay its loan back all the while growing the business. If Idera is big enough, this could be a revenue multiplier situation but that seems less likely and is generally financed internally. The last type of common deal is intellectual property but not sure if Embarcadero has enough to justify a buy offer.
Dominique Willems

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Re: Idera's acquisition of Embarcadero Technologies?
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  Posted: Sep 23, 2015 2:36 PM   in response to: cameron cole in response to: cameron cole
Having just browsed their website, I'm having trouble understanding how
this company can afford EMBT and not vice versa.

Having then looked at their less than vibrant forums, I'm having even
more trouble.

Am I correct in deducing from the forum activity that SQL Diagnostic
Manager is their main product? (which is 50% off till end of the month
-- EMBT, take note!)
Cameron Hart

Posts: 2
Registered: 3/19/04
Re: Idera's acquisition of Embarcadero Technologies?
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  Posted: Sep 23, 2015 9:52 PM   in response to: Dominique Willems in response to: Dominique Willems
Dominique Willems wrote:
Having just browsed their website, I'm having trouble understanding how
this company can afford EMBT and not vice versa.

Which is presumably why they need to borrow the $'s to make the purchase, no ? ;)
Dominique Willems

Posts: 588
Registered: 10/26/99
Re: Idera's acquisition of Embarcadero Technologies?
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  Posted: Sep 24, 2015 1:44 AM   in response to: Cameron Hart in response to: Cameron Hart
Cameron Hart wrote:
Which is presumably why they need to borrow the $'s to make the
purchase, no ? ;)

D'oh.

Scary. :)
Quentin Correll


Posts: 2,390
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Re: Idera's acquisition of Embarcadero Technologies?
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  Posted: Sep 24, 2015 12:25 PM   in response to: Dominique Willems in response to: Dominique Willems
Dominique,

| | Which is presumably why they need to borrow the $'s to make the
| | purchase, no ? ;)

| D'oh.
|

| Scary. :)

Damn scary!!! <sigh>

--

Q -- XanaNews 1.19.1.372 - 2015-09-24 12:25:05

Dale Barnes

Posts: 2
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Re: Idera's acquisition of Embarcadero Technologies?
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  Posted: Dec 11, 2015 5:46 AM   in response to: Gilbert Padilla in response to: Gilbert Padilla
Gilbert Padilla wrote:
3. Something else. Ask your crystal ball. ;)

Delphi price goes down 70% and becomes a popular development tool once again
;)

I am all for that. I quit upgrading ever version due to the costs.
Luigi Sandon

Posts: 345
Registered: 10/15/99
Re: Idera's acquisition of Embarcadero Technologies?
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  Posted: Sep 22, 2015 2:30 PM   in response to: Guenther Schoch in response to: Guenther Schoch
Guenther Schoch wrote:
What would that mean for Delphi. As Idera seems to be an "only database focused company".

Moreover, a very Microsoft SQL Server focused company, and thereby very Windows focused also. Its tools looks to be mostly (or wholly) developed in .NET.

Is it trying to expand its database business beyond Windows/SQL Server?

How a development tool branch and a database fit its business and expansion plans?

Maybe we will see what part of Embarcadero business is really profitable and worth $400 million (less than 0.02 Whatsapp)..
Per Larsen, Nex...

Posts: 28
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  Posted: Sep 22, 2015 3:06 PM   in response to: Luigi Sandon in response to: Luigi Sandon
Luigi Sandon wrote:

Guenther Schoch wrote:
What would that mean for Delphi. As Idera seems to be an "only
database focused company".

Moreover, a very Microsoft SQL Server focused company, and thereby
very Windows focused also. Its tools looks to be mostly (or wholly)
developed in .NET.

Is it trying to expand its database business beyond Windows/SQL
Server?

How a development tool branch and a database fit its business and
expansion plans?

Maybe we will see what part of Embarcadero business is really
profitable and worth $400 million (less than 0.02 Whatsapp)..

What I find most surprising in all of this is that the third-party DB
add-on business apparently is so large that Delphi almost becomes a
side-show. Why hasn't Microsoft (in this case) eaten these companies'
lunch a long time ago?

Per
Luigi Sandon

Posts: 345
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Re: Idera's acquisition of Embarcadero Technologies?
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  Posted: Sep 23, 2015 12:24 PM   in response to: Per Larsen, Nex... in response to: Per Larsen, Nex...
Why hasn't Microsoft (in this case) eaten these companies'
lunch a long time ago?

Why should they? What could be profitable for a focused small or middle size company may not be for a very large one with a far broader portfolio. Oracle too is not interested to compete in the database tools arena, it prefers to sell expensive products built upon it.

Dell acquired Quest years ago, and its good tools some of which were written in Delphi - to expand its portfolio outside the hardware business.

BTW: the much hyped ERWin acquisition by Embarcadero from CA never materialized. Does somebody know why?
david hoke

Posts: 616
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Re: Idera's acquisition of Embarcadero Technologies?
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  Posted: Sep 23, 2015 12:34 PM   in response to: Luigi Sandon in response to: Luigi Sandon
Luigi Sandon wrote:

Why hasn't Microsoft (in this case) eaten these companies'
lunch a long time ago?

Why should they? What could be profitable for a focused small or
middle size company may not be for a very large one with a far
broader portfolio. Oracle too is not interested to compete in the
database tools arena, it prefers to sell expensive products built
upon it.

Dell acquired Quest years ago, and its good tools some of which were
written in Delphi - to expand its portfolio outside the hardware
business.

BTW: the much hyped ERWin acquisition by Embarcadero from CA never
materialized. Does somebody know why?

http://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/embarcadero-technologies-and-ca-inc-terminate-proposed-transfer-ca-incs-erwin-data-modeler
Luigi Sandon

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  Posted: Sep 29, 2015 11:04 AM   in response to: david hoke in response to: david hoke

Thanks.

It's interesting the DOJ cares about competition in the modelling tool arena, but can't see the lack of in search engines... or the like.
david hoke

Posts: 616
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  Posted: Sep 29, 2015 11:15 AM   in response to: Luigi Sandon in response to: Luigi Sandon
Luigi Sandon wrote:

http://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/embarcadero-technologies-and-ca-inc-terminate-proposed-transfer-ca-incs-erwin-data-modeler

Thanks.

It's interesting the DOJ cares about competition in the modelling
tool arena, but can't see the lack of in search engines... or the
like.

I don't know about "the like", but for search engines, there are at
least more than two, myself knowing of google, bing, and duckduckgo ...

Looking at (firefox, IE) search engine add'ins, there may be more
altho' many (the rest?) seem a bit more specialized in some respect...
Luigi Sandon

Posts: 345
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Re: Idera's acquisition of Embarcadero Technologies?
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  Posted: Sep 29, 2015 12:26 PM   in response to: david hoke in response to: david hoke
I don't know about "the like", but for search engines, there are at
least more than two, myself knowing of google, bing, and duckduckgo ...

There are also other modelling tools, PowerDesigner to start from. Wikipedia has 14.

Looking at (firefox, IE) search engine add'ins, there may be more
altho' many (the rest?) seem a bit more specialized in some respect...

How many people don't use Google outside Russia (Yandex) and China (Baidu)? Yahoo is more or less in Delphi situation, while Bing is used mostly to mock Microsoft...
Vladimir Ulchenko

Posts: 248
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  Posted: Sep 29, 2015 11:50 PM   in response to: Luigi Sandon in response to: Luigi Sandon
On Tue, 29 Sep 2015 12:26:27 -0700, Luigi Sandon <> wrote:

How many people don't use Google outside Russia (Yandex) and China (Baidu)? Yahoo is more or less in Delphi situation, while Bing is used mostly to mock Microsoft...

I'm in russia and been using google since its early days

--
Vladimir Ulchenko aka vavan
Navid Madani

Posts: 3
Registered: 4/21/12
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  Posted: Sep 22, 2015 9:38 PM   in response to: Guenther Schoch in response to: Guenther Schoch
Am I imagining or do I really see a Delphi/VCL/DevExpress look and feel to Idera's products ...
Terje Bergesen

Posts: 2
Registered: 2/11/99
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  Posted: Sep 23, 2015 4:56 AM   in response to: Navid Madani in response to: Navid Madani
Navid Madani wrote:
Am I imagining or do I really see a Delphi/VCL/DevExpress look and feel to Idera's products ...

Not really, looks like DevExpress components in many places, and their requirements include .NET 4. Probably mostly .NET and C#.
Brandon Staggs

Posts: 633
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  Posted: Sep 23, 2015 5:34 AM   in response to: Guenther Schoch in response to: Guenther Schoch
The unknowns are not good, that is obvious. It would be nice to have
stability and to have Delphi owned by someone with an interest in its
long term success.

But all of the wild speculation here is pointless and only serves to
magnify FUD.

I'll be interested in some kind of official word from Embarcadero
whenever it comes out.

--
Brandon Staggs
StudyLamp Software LLC
http://www.studylamp.com
Nick Hodges

Posts: 2,414
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  Posted: Sep 23, 2015 5:54 AM   in response to: Brandon Staggs in response to: Brandon Staggs
Brandon Staggs wrote:

I'll be interested in some kind of official word from Embarcadero
whenever it comes out.

Here's my view: This is all rumor and conjecture based on a somewhat
obscure reference in a somewhat obscure article with very little
information.

--
Nick
Delphi Programming is Fun
Arnaud Bouchez

Posts: 137
Registered: 8/2/15
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  Posted: Sep 23, 2015 6:13 AM   in response to: Nick Hodges in response to: Nick Hodges
Nick Hodges wrote:
Here's my view: This is all rumor and conjecture based on a somewhat
obscure reference in a somewhat obscure article with very little
information.

Oups...

So I did made a mistake by buying a massive number of Idera shares?

;)
Nick Hodges

Posts: 2,414
Registered: 9/22/99
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  Posted: Sep 23, 2015 7:20 AM   in response to: Arnaud Bouchez in response to: Arnaud Bouchez
Arnaud Bouchez wrote:

So I did made a mistake by buying a massive number of Idera shares?

Only time can tell. ;-)

--
Nick
Delphi Programming is Fun
Cameron Hart

Posts: 2
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  Posted: Sep 23, 2015 10:01 PM   in response to: Nick Hodges in response to: Nick Hodges
Nick Hodges wrote:
Brandon Staggs wrote:

I'll be interested in some kind of official word from Embarcadero
whenever it comes out.

Here's my view: This is all rumor and conjecture based on a somewhat
obscure reference in a somewhat obscure article with very little
information.

Yep, "reuters". I mean, come on. Who-ever paid any attention to that tin whistle rumour mill ? Wait until it's announced on reddit, that's when we need to take it seriously. :D
Luigi Sandon

Posts: 345
Registered: 10/15/99
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  Posted: Sep 26, 2015 2:13 PM   in response to: Nick Hodges in response to: Nick Hodges
Here's my view: This is all rumor and conjecture based on a somewhat
obscure reference in a somewhat obscure article with very little
information.

Another obscure rumor from an obscure company (Moody's):

"New York, September 24, 2015 -- Moody's Investors Service ("Moody's") assigned a B3 Corporate Family Rating ("CFR") and B3-PD Probability of Default Rating ("PDR") to Idera, Inc. ("Idera") while placing a B2 rating on the company's proposed first lien credit facilities and a Caa2 rating on the proposed second lien term loan. The rating action follows the announcement of the company's pending acquisition of Embarcadero Technologies, Inc. ("Embarcadero"). Proceeds of the debt financing will be used to partially fund the purchase transaction as well as refinance Idera's existing borrowings. The ratings outlook is stable."

https://www.moodys.com/research/Moodys-assigns-B3-CFR-to-Idera-Inc-outlook-stable--PR_335231

David Champion


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Re: Idera's acquisition of Embarcadero Technologies?
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  Posted: Sep 26, 2015 3:00 PM   in response to: Luigi Sandon in response to: Luigi Sandon

Another obscure rumor from an obscure company (Moody's):

"..The company's pending acquisition of Embarcadero will create a pure-play database-centric software provider with complementary performance monitoring and application development tools.."

The credit rating assumes no divestment plan by Idera
Luigi Sandon

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  Posted: Sep 27, 2015 8:36 AM   in response to: David Champion in response to: David Champion
The credit rating assumes no divestment plan by Idera

If the deal is certain - and it looks to be -, now it will be interesting to know what are Idera plans. It would also be advisable to tell customers something, right after the roll out of a new release, because otherwise I would be very careful to keep on investing in dev tools products now. Or they just believe it will stay under the radar long enough?

Other sentences, like "Furthermore, Idera's management team's demonstrated track record of realizing cost efficiencies" and "The company is also well positioned to capitalize on a number of identifiable cost reduction initiatives, although initial costs associated with the implementation of these synergies could limit margin improvement over the near term", can be read in some different ways.

The big question is what assets are valuable for Idera, and which are not, or not enough. Many scenarios are possible, from "business as usual", to other far less appealing from a Delphi perspective. Only Idera can tell...
Guenther Schoch

Posts: 13
Registered: 10/14/99
Re: Idera's acquisition of Embarcadero Technologies?
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  Posted: Sep 27, 2015 11:54 PM   in response to: Luigi Sandon in response to: Luigi Sandon
The big question is what assets are valuable for Idera, and which are not, or not enough. Many scenarios are possible, from "business as usual", to other far less appealing from a Delphi perspective. Only Idera can tell...

The story has to be looked at more deeply

Idera belongs to
http://www.ta.com/Investments/Portfolio/Current-Portfolio.aspx
http://www.idera.com/about/news/pressreleases/2014/ta-associates-announces-acquisition-of-idera-inc

The TA-Portfolio is not at all strategic in the point of view of "synergies in the software sector". It's the typical private equity company buying, "optimizing" and selling companies.
The story Idera tells is "the wonderful n billion database market ...". I do not see were Delphi fits into that (beside to be a cash cow).
Robert Dawson

Posts: 211
Registered: 7/28/00
Re: Idera's acquisition of Embarcadero Technologies?
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  Posted: Sep 29, 2015 7:55 AM   in response to: Guenther Schoch in response to: Guenther Schoch
Guenther Schoch wrote:

The TA-Portfolio is not at all strategic in the point of view of "synergies in the software sector".

Nor would one expect that. Growth/profit potential matters in this arena, not the specific industry. If the companies owned or part-owned by TA can help each other, that's encouraged, but not a deal maker/breaker.

It's the typical private equity company buying, "optimizing" and selling companies.

And that "optimizing" part needn't sound ominous. An investment capital firm is going to try to find companies that look like they have real growth potential, and it's not uncommon for the capital influx to be used to consolidate/expand/solidify the company's market position by acquisition. Doesn't really bother me that the deal is financed; we're still in a near-free money environment for business debt.

Point: "optimizing" should not be read as cash-stripping, downsizing, sacrificing anything for immediate cashflow, etc. IC firms make money by buying into and supporting growth, and then selling the larger, stronger companies for more than they paid for them.

No telling how this will work out, but the fact of the deal (assuming it goes through) doesn't bother me at all.

bobD
Brian Hamilton ...

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  Posted: Sep 29, 2015 11:32 AM   in response to: Robert Dawson in response to: Robert Dawson
Finally someone who actually talks some sense in this thread, other than the negatives that get posted
Luigi Sandon

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  Posted: Sep 23, 2015 9:37 AM   in response to: Brandon Staggs in response to: Brandon Staggs
I'll be interested in some kind of official word from Embarcadero
whenever it comes out.

They will tell you something as soon as they run away with the money...
Jacek Laskowski

Posts: 33
Registered: 8/8/10
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  Posted: Sep 23, 2015 12:07 PM   in response to: Guenther Schoch in response to: Guenther Schoch
Delphi is very unstable and buggy environment :-(
Maybe this acquisition breathes the spirit in Delphi ... or let eventually kill him... forever.

best regards
Brian Hamilton ...

Posts: 537
Registered: 10/14/04
Re: Idera's acquisition of Embarcadero Technologies?
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  Posted: Sep 23, 2015 1:42 PM   in response to: Jacek Laskowski in response to: Jacek Laskowski
Jacek Laskowski wrote:
Delphi is very unstable and buggy environment :-(
Maybe this acquisition breathes the spirit in Delphi ... or let eventually kill him... forever.

best regards

best regards?
are you using Delphi Seattle?
Jacek Laskowski

Posts: 33
Registered: 8/8/10
Re: Idera's acquisition of Embarcadero Technologies?
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  Posted: Sep 24, 2015 2:40 AM   in response to: Brian Hamilton ... in response to: Brian Hamilton ...
Brian Hamilton Hamilton wrote:
Jacek Laskowski wrote:
Delphi is very unstable and buggy environment :-(
Maybe this acquisition breathes the spirit in Delphi ... or let eventually kill him... forever.

best regards

best regards?
are you using Delphi Seattle?

No, XE8. But it's the same in each version. From 2009 to XE8. Do I have to expect that in D10 is different?
Ralf Stocker

Posts: 121
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Re: Idera's acquisition of Embarcadero Technologies?
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  Posted: Sep 24, 2015 3:28 AM   in response to: Jacek Laskowski in response to: Jacek Laskowski
No, XE8. But it's the same in each version. From 2009 to XE8. Do I have to expect that in D10 is different?

Delphi 7 (8/9/2002 ) is the most stable version. Sorry. A type of reference.
Borja Serrano

Posts: 53
Registered: 1/10/13
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  Posted: Sep 24, 2015 6:03 AM   in response to: Jacek Laskowski in response to: Jacek Laskowski
Do I have to expect that in D10 is different?
I think so. At least the memory problems are gone
Luigi Sandon

Posts: 345
Registered: 10/15/99
Re: Idera's acquisition of Embarcadero Technologies?
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  Posted: Sep 24, 2015 7:48 AM   in response to: Borja Serrano in response to: Borja Serrano
Borja Serrano wrote:
Do I have to expect that in D10 is different?
I think so. At least the memory problems are gone

It took so long to turn on a flag in the PE header...
Olivier Sannier

Posts: 415
Registered: 8/26/01
Re: Idera's acquisition of Embarcadero Technologies?
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  Posted: Sep 24, 2015 8:05 AM   in response to: Luigi Sandon in response to: Luigi Sandon
Luigi Sandon wrote:
Borja Serrano wrote:
Do I have to expect that in D10 is different?
I think so. At least the memory problems are gone

It took so long to turn on a flag in the PE header...

If it was that simple...
The hardest thing is getting out of the "everything is Integer" habit...
Brandon Staggs

Posts: 633
Registered: 3/3/01
Re: Idera's acquisition of Embarcadero Technologies?
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  Posted: Sep 24, 2015 1:01 PM   in response to: Luigi Sandon in response to: Luigi Sandon
"Luigi Sandon" wrote on Thu, 24 Sep 2015 07:48:49 -0700:

It took so long to turn on a flag in the PE header...

I would have expected you to know better.

--
Brandon Staggs
StudyLamp Software LLC
http://www.studylamp.com
Jacek Laskowski

Posts: 33
Registered: 8/8/10
Re: Idera's acquisition of Embarcadero Technologies?
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  Posted: Oct 7, 2015 9:42 AM   in response to: Brian Hamilton ... in response to: Brian Hamilton ...
Brian Hamilton Hamilton wrote:
Jacek Laskowski wrote:
Delphi is very unstable and buggy environment :-(
Maybe this acquisition breathes the spirit in Delphi ... or let eventually kill him... forever.

best regards

best regards?
are you using Delphi Seattle?

http://blog.synopse.info/post/2015/10/05/Delphi-10-Seattle-Win64-compiler-Heisenbug%3A-unusable-target

Do you mean this Seattle? ;-)
Quentin Correll


Posts: 2,390
Registered: 12/1/99
Re: Idera's acquisition of Embarcadero Technologies?
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  Posted: Oct 7, 2015 11:32 AM   in response to: Jacek Laskowski in response to: Jacek Laskowski
Jacek,


http://blog.synopse.info/post/2015/10/05/Delphi-10-Seattle-Win64-compiler-Heisenbug%3A-unusable-target

| Do you mean this Seattle? ;-)

"...the Win64 compiler of Delphi 10 Seattle is broken."

Yep. I've un-installed it and am sticking with using XE8!

--

Q -- XanaNews 1.19.1.372 - 2015-10-07 11:31:27
Andreas Hausladen

Posts: 45
Registered: 6/5/00
Re: Idera's acquisition of Embarcadero Technologies?
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  Posted: Oct 8, 2015 5:44 AM   in response to: Quentin Correll in response to: Quentin Correll
Quentin Correll wrote:

"...the Win64 compiler of Delphi 10 Seattle is broken."

They already found the bug and it will be fixed in the next update.

--
Andreas Hausladen

Quentin Correll


Posts: 2,390
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Re: Idera's acquisition of Embarcadero Technologies?
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  Posted: Oct 8, 2015 12:26 PM   in response to: Andreas Hausladen in response to: Andreas Hausladen
Andreas,

| | "...the Win64 compiler of Delphi 10 Seattle is broken."
|
| They already found the bug and it will be fixed in the next update.

Cool!

I'll wait for the next version. RAD Studio XE8 is working just fine
for what I do.

Thanks!

--

Q -- XanaNews 1.19.1.372 - 2015-10-08 12:24:46
Clement Doss

Posts: 126
Registered: 9/19/00
Re: Idera's acquisition of Embarcadero Technologies?
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  Posted: Sep 23, 2015 2:48 PM   in response to: Jacek Laskowski in response to: Jacek Laskowski
Delphi is very unstable and buggy environment :-(
I must be really good since my very unstable and buggy environment handles all the smellyless code I throw at it! Sorry. I never write smelly code!

Maybe this acquisition breathes the spirit in Delphi ... or let eventually kill him... forever.
They keep trying to kill it. Maybe the very unstablefulness of it's buggy environment crashes before it can actually die.

Clément
Phillip Woon

Posts: 184
Registered: 9/30/99
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  Posted: Sep 29, 2015 11:19 AM   in response to: Jacek Laskowski in response to: Jacek Laskowski
Jacek Laskowski wrote:
Delphi is very unstable and buggy environment :-(
Maybe this acquisition breathes the spirit in Delphi ... or let eventually kill him... forever.

best regards

Not from where I'm standing. Not more than any other development tool. Now, XE8 had issues, but 10 Seattle is great.
Quentin Correll


Posts: 2,390
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  Posted: Sep 30, 2015 11:40 AM   in response to: Phillip Woon in response to: Phillip Woon
Phillip,

| Now, XE8 had issues, but 10 Seattle is great.

Not for me. I can't get a 3rd-Party package (Orpheus) to install!

--

Q -- XanaNews 1.19.1.372 - 2015-09-30 11:39:45
Lance Rasmussen

Posts: 40
Registered: 9/26/02
Re: Idera's acquisition of Embarcadero Technologies?
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  Posted: Sep 30, 2015 3:42 PM   in response to: Quentin Correll in response to: Quentin Correll
Do you use FinalBuilder Quentin? When I first did the GetIt, Orpheus didn't take. But when I created some actions in FB, I didn't have any problem.

Lance


Quentin Correll wrote:
Phillip,

| Now, XE8 had issues, but 10 Seattle is great.

Not for me. I can't get a 3rd-Party package (Orpheus) to install!

--

Q -- XanaNews 1.19.1.372 - 2015-09-30 11:39:45
Quentin Correll


Posts: 2,390
Registered: 12/1/99
Re: Idera's acquisition of Embarcadero Technologies?
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  Posted: Sep 30, 2015 6:11 PM   in response to: Lance Rasmussen in response to: Lance Rasmussen
Lance,

| Do you use FinalBuilder Quentin? When I first did the GetIt, Orpheus
| didn't take. But when I created some actions in FB, I didn't have
| any problem.

What's FinalBuilder?

--

Q -- XanaNews 1.19.1.372 - 2015-09-30 18:10:46

Remy Lebeau (Te...


Posts: 8,950
Registered: 12/23/01
Re: Idera's acquisition of Embarcadero Technologies?
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  Posted: Sep 30, 2015 6:24 PM   in response to: Quentin Correll in response to: Quentin Correll
Quentin wrote:

What's FinalBuilder?

https://www.finalbuilder.com/finalbuilder
https://www.finalbuilder.com/finalbuilder-delphi

--
Remy Lebeau (TeamB)
Quentin Correll


Posts: 2,390
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Re: Idera's acquisition of Embarcadero Technologies?
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  Posted: Oct 2, 2015 2:21 PM   in response to: Remy Lebeau (Te... in response to: Remy Lebeau (Te...
Remy,

| | What's FinalBuilder?
|
| https://www.finalbuilder.com/finalbuilder
| https://www.finalbuilder.com/finalbuilder-delphi

Thank you!

As a lone-wolf personal apps "hobby" coder that's WAY out of my
requirements range. <g>

--

Q -- XanaNews 1.19.1.372 - 2015-10-02 14:19:29
Lars Fosdal


Posts: 156
Registered: 10/26/99
Re: Idera's acquisition of Embarcadero Technologies?
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  Posted: Oct 5, 2015 4:13 AM   in response to: Quentin Correll in response to: Quentin Correll
Quentin Correll wrote:
| | What's FinalBuilder?
As a lone-wolf personal apps "hobby" coder that's WAY out of my
requirements range. <g>

As a hobby coder, that is understandable - but as a lone-wolf coder - FinalBuilder + Continua CI would be your sidekick, automating tedious stuff such as running unit tests, managing version numbering, building various releases, etc. - effectively unburdening you from the chores, so that most of the time - all you need to do is to code and commit.

--
http://plus.lars.fosdal.com
Delphi Developers Google+ Community: https://plus.google.com/communities/103113685381486591754 (6200+ members)
Bruce McGee

Posts: 1,716
Registered: 9/30/99
Re: Idera's acquisition of Embarcadero Technologies?
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  Posted: Oct 5, 2015 8:32 AM   in response to: Lars Fosdal in response to: Lars Fosdal
Lars Fosdal wrote:

Quentin Correll wrote:
| What's FinalBuilder?
As a lone-wolf personal apps "hobby" coder that's WAY out of my
requirements range. <g>

As a hobby coder, that is understandable - but as a lone-wolf coder -
FinalBuilder + Continua CI would be your sidekick, automating tedious
stuff such as running unit tests, managing version numbering,
building various releases, etc. - effectively unburdening you from
the chores, so that most of the time - all you need to do is to code
and commit.

For projects that you intend to keep (not throw-aways), I'm a huge
advocate of source control and automated builds, even for lone
developers.

Not only does it wind up saving me a bunch of time, it changes how I
develop projects and improves how much uninterrupted development time I
get.

None of this needs to be very formal, either. A build script could be
as simple as a batch file and there are a bunch of free source control
tools available.

--
Regards,
Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
Quentin Correll


Posts: 2,390
Registered: 12/1/99
Re: Idera's acquisition of Embarcadero Technologies?
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  Posted: Oct 5, 2015 2:38 PM   in response to: Bruce McGee in response to: Bruce McGee
Bruce,

| ... and there are a bunch of free source control tools available.

What do you use? Recommend?

--

Q -- XanaNews 1.19.1.372 - 2015-10-05 14:37:21
Bruce McGee

Posts: 1,716
Registered: 9/30/99
Re: Idera's acquisition of Embarcadero Technologies?
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  Posted: Oct 6, 2015 6:13 AM   in response to: Quentin Correll in response to: Quentin Correll
Quentin Correll wrote:

Bruce,

... and there are a bunch of free source control tools available.

What do you use? Recommend?

I use Mercurial.

I used Subversion not long ago, which is also nice, but you need to be
connected to a central repository in order to use it.

Mercurial is a so-called distributed source control system (GIT is
another one), which makes it useful for teams working apart. I don't
really care about any of that. I like that every user has their own
local repository, which means I can check in code and take advantage of
the features of source control even when I'm not connected to a central
repository. For example, when I'm working off-site or without an
Internet connection. I can then push to that central repository at some
later time.

I user TortisHG for the front end. This integrates into Windows
Explorer, which is weird at first, but you get used to it. I don't use
Delphi's built in support because I put more stuff than just Delphi
files in source control. There are also other options if you don't like
Tortise.

I strongly recommend using source control, even for lone-wolf
developers. There are lots of reasons, but that's another, longer
discussion.

Here are some links to get you started.

http://hginit.com/

http://tortoisehg.bitbucket.org/

--
Regards,
Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
Bruce McGee

Posts: 1,716
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Re: Idera's acquisition of Embarcadero Technologies?
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  Posted: Oct 6, 2015 6:21 AM   in response to: Bruce McGee in response to: Bruce McGee
Bruce McGee wrote:

Wow, my spelling sucks. It's TortiseHG.

And I forgot to mention that both Subversion and Mercurial are free.

--
Regards,
Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
Dalija Prasnikar

Posts: 2,280
Registered: 11/9/99
Re: Idera's acquisition of Embarcadero Technologies?
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  Posted: Oct 6, 2015 6:27 AM   in response to: Bruce McGee in response to: Bruce McGee
Bruce McGee wrote:
Bruce McGee wrote:

Wow, my spelling sucks. It's TortiseHG.

And I forgot to mention that both Subversion and Mercurial are free.

Try again :)

TortoiseHg

There is also Atlassian SourceTree that supports both Git and Mercurial
repositories, but for Mercurial TortoiseHg is my first choice because it is faster.

https://www.sourcetreeapp.com/

--
Dalija Prasnikar
Bruce McGee

Posts: 1,716
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Re: Idera's acquisition of Embarcadero Technologies?
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  Posted: Oct 6, 2015 6:38 AM   in response to: Dalija Prasnikar in response to: Dalija Prasnikar
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:

Try again :)

Sigh...

In my defense, I haven't made it all the way through my first coffee.

There is also Atlassian SourceTree that supports both Git and
Mercurial repositories, but for Mercurial TortoiseHg is my first
choice because it is faster.

https://www.sourcetreeapp.com/

Another reason I continue using Tortoise (hope I got it right...) is
that it works on XP, and SourceTree requires Windows 7 or higher.

I think #10Seattle might be the last version I'll reasonably be able to
use with XP. The installer is smoother, but some of the dialogs require
Vista or higher.

--
Regards,
Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
Asbjørn Heid

Posts: 267
Registered: 11/12/12
Re: Idera's acquisition of Embarcadero Technologies?
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  Posted: Oct 6, 2015 6:42 AM   in response to: Dalija Prasnikar in response to: Dalija Prasnikar
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:

TortoiseHg

There is also Atlassian SourceTree that supports both Git and Mercurial
repositories, but for Mercurial TortoiseHg is my first choice because it is faster.

For Mercurial I found the command line to be all I really needed, and very nice to work with. I used DiffMerge for diffs and merges though.

Tried TortoiseHg but never liked it. As mentioned SourceTree can be a bit sluggish but other than that it's rather nice IMO.

I absolutely agree that one should use either Mercurial, Git or a similar DVCS though, even for hobby projects. They offer a flexibility and peace of mind that is unparalleled.

- Asbjørn
Dalija Prasnikar

Posts: 2,280
Registered: 11/9/99
Re: Idera's acquisition of Embarcadero Technologies?
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  Posted: Oct 6, 2015 6:50 AM   in response to: Asbjørn Heid in response to: Asbjørn Heid
Asbjørn Heid wrote:
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:

TortoiseHg

There is also Atlassian SourceTree that supports both Git and Mercurial
repositories, but for Mercurial TortoiseHg is my first choice because it is faster.

For Mercurial I found the command line to be all I really needed, and very nice to work with. I used DiffMerge for diffs and merges though.

For me command line was cool when I was teenager. I could show off
my skills... now, life is to short and so is my memory... if I cannot click it,
it does not exists :)

--
Dalija Prasnikar
Asbjørn Heid

Posts: 267
Registered: 11/12/12
Re: Idera's acquisition of Embarcadero Technologies?
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  Posted: Oct 6, 2015 7:46 AM   in response to: Dalija Prasnikar in response to: Dalija Prasnikar
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:
Asbjørn Heid wrote:

For Mercurial I found the command line to be all I really needed, and very nice to work with. I used DiffMerge for diffs and merges though.

For me command line was cool when I was teenager. I could show off
my skills... now, life is to short and so is my memory... if I cannot click it,
it does not exists :)

I know what you mean, but for Mercurial it just felt very natural and fluid to use the command line.

- Asbjørn
Quentin Correll


Posts: 2,390
Registered: 12/1/99
Re: Idera's acquisition of Embarcadero Technologies?
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  Posted: Oct 7, 2015 11:38 AM   in response to: Dalija Prasnikar in response to: Dalija Prasnikar
Dalija,

| ... now, life is to short and so is my memory... if I cannot click it,
| it does not exists :)

ROFL!

--

Q -- XanaNews 1.19.1.372 - 2015-10-07 11:37:30
Brian Hamilton ...

Posts: 537
Registered: 10/14/04
Re: Idera's acquisition of Embarcadero Technologies?
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  Posted: Oct 12, 2015 12:16 PM   in response to: Dalija Prasnikar in response to: Dalija Prasnikar
For me command line was cool when I was teenager. I could show off
my skills

but check out the command line skills of the computer geeks on the TV shows today .(no mouse in sight)...LOL

Edited by: Brian Hamilton Hamilton on Oct 12, 2015 12:16 PM
Quentin Correll


Posts: 2,390
Registered: 12/1/99
Re: Idera's acquisition of Embarcadero Technologies?
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  Posted: Oct 7, 2015 11:36 AM   in response to: Bruce McGee in response to: Bruce McGee
Bruce,

Thanks for the discourse!

I used to use Subversion but gave it up for the same reason you did.
An, for reasons I don't now know or remember, I never tried anything
else.

--

Q -- XanaNews 1.19.1.372 - 2015-10-07 11:33:48
Bruce McGee

Posts: 1,716
Registered: 9/30/99
Re: Idera's acquisition of Embarcadero Technologies?
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  Posted: Oct 7, 2015 12:29 PM   in response to: Quentin Correll in response to: Quentin Correll
Quentin Correll wrote:

Bruce,

Thanks for the discourse!

I used to use Subversion but gave it up for the same reason you did.
An, for reasons I don't now know or remember, I never tried anything
else.

Let me know if you want to chat some more about it.

I strongly recommend that anyone working on non-trivial software, even
as a hobbyist, use some kind of source control.

--
Regards,
Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
Quentin Correll


Posts: 2,390
Registered: 12/1/99
Re: Idera's acquisition of Embarcadero Technologies?
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  Posted: Oct 7, 2015 4:43 PM   in response to: Bruce McGee in response to: Bruce McGee
Bruce,

| Let me know if you want to chat some more about it.

OK, I will if the urge strikes me. <g> Thanks!

| I strongly recommend that anyone working on non-trivial software, even
| as a hobbyist, use some kind of source control.

I used to believe in that as well. ;-)

--

Q -- XanaNews 1.19.1.372 - 2015-10-07 16:41:59

Josh Kelley

Posts: 72
Registered: 3/6/08
Re: Idera's acquisition of Embarcadero Technologies?
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  Posted: Oct 6, 2015 10:33 AM   in response to: Bruce McGee in response to: Bruce McGee
On 10/6/2015 9:13 AM, Bruce McGee wrote:
I used Subversion not long ago, which is also nice, but you need to be
connected to a central repository in order to use it.

Nitpick: Subversion works just fine with a local file:/// repository, so
no central server is needed.

(Mercurial and Git offer plenty of other advantages, so I'd still
recommend them over Subversion.)

--
Josh Kelley
Bruce McGee

Posts: 1,716
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Re: Idera's acquisition of Embarcadero Technologies?
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  Posted: Oct 6, 2015 10:40 AM   in response to: Josh Kelley in response to: Josh Kelley
Josh Kelley wrote:

On 10/6/2015 9:13 AM, Bruce McGee wrote:
I used Subversion not long ago, which is also nice, but you need to
be connected to a central repository in order to use it.

Nitpick: Subversion works just fine with a local file:/// repository,
so no central server is needed.

(Mercurial and Git offer plenty of other advantages, so I'd still
recommend them over Subversion.)

I didn't know that.

But it would be an either/or situation, wouldn't it? Either a local
repository or a central shared one, but not both?

--
Regards,
Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
david hoke

Posts: 616
Registered: 2/9/07
Re: Idera's acquisition of Embarcadero Technologies?
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  Posted: Oct 6, 2015 10:46 AM   in response to: Bruce McGee in response to: Bruce McGee
Bruce McGee wrote:

But it would be an either/or situation, wouldn't it? Either a local
repository or a central shared one, but not both?

A different sort of 'both...

Git does have interfaces to various foreign items, one of them being
subversion.

You can locally use git, having it interface ultimately with subversion
(assumes git was used to 'checkout' from subversion for the repository
one is working with.)
Josh Kelley

Posts: 72
Registered: 3/6/08
Re: Idera's acquisition of Embarcadero Technologies?
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  Posted: Oct 6, 2015 10:50 AM   in response to: Bruce McGee in response to: Bruce McGee
On 10/6/2015 1:40 PM, Bruce McGee wrote:
Josh Kelley wrote:
Nitpick: Subversion works just fine with a local file:/// repository,
so no central server is needed.

I didn't know that.

But it would be an either/or situation, wouldn't it? Either a local
repository or a central shared one, but not both?

Correct.

(You could, technically, have one repository that's both accessible
locally as a file:/// and served by Apache or svnserve, but there's not
much point to doing so. In particular, it wouldn't give you the DVCS
flexibility of having a local repository for working offline as well as
a central repository for working with others.)

--
Josh Kelley
Remy Lebeau (Te...


Posts: 8,950
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Re: Idera's acquisition of Embarcadero Technologies?
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  Posted: Oct 6, 2015 12:02 PM   in response to: Bruce McGee in response to: Bruce McGee
Bruce wrote:

I used Subversion not long ago, which is also nice, but you need
to be connected to a central repository in order to use it.

Unless you run your own local repository.

--
Remy Lebeau (TeamB)
Bruce McGee

Posts: 1,716
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Re: Idera's acquisition of Embarcadero Technologies?
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  Posted: Oct 6, 2015 12:22 PM   in response to: Remy Lebeau (Te... in response to: Remy Lebeau (Te...
Remy Lebeau (TeamB) wrote:

Bruce wrote:

I used Subversion not long ago, which is also nice, but you need
to be connected to a central repository in order to use it.

Unless you run your own local repository.

Yes.

I also had the unwritten assumption that there was a central repository
somewhere on the network (or in "the cloud") that could be shared and
(more importantly) backed up independently of the development machine.

The distributed version control gives me both with a lot of jumping
through hoops. It's not a shot at Subversion in any way, which I also
like.

If I wanted to get a real fight going, I'd talk about the things I
liked in Perforce. Or StarTeam. :)

--
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Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
Dalija Prasnikar

Posts: 2,280
Registered: 11/9/99
Re: Idera's acquisition of Embarcadero Technologies?
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  Posted: Oct 6, 2015 6:35 AM   in response to: Quentin Correll in response to: Quentin Correll
Quentin Correll wrote:
Bruce,

| ... and there are a bunch of free source control tools available.

What do you use? Recommend?

You can also get additional free cloud backup for your code if you
use Mercurial or Git. https://bitbucket.org/

It offers unlimited private repositories for small teams (up to 5 users).

For me, it is just in case precaution because I have backups of
backups of backups... but it is nice to know if all your local backups
go to hell, your code will still be alive in the cloud :)

--
Dalija Prasnikar
Quentin Correll


Posts: 2,390
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Re: Idera's acquisition of Embarcadero Technologies?
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  Posted: Oct 7, 2015 11:40 AM   in response to: Dalija Prasnikar in response to: Dalija Prasnikar
Dalija,

| You can also get additional free cloud backup for your code if you
| use Mercurial or Git. https://bitbucket.org/

Thanks!

--

Q -- XanaNews 1.19.1.372 - 2015-10-07 11:40:22
Quentin Correll


Posts: 2,390
Registered: 12/1/99
Re: Idera's acquisition of Embarcadero Technologies?
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  Posted: Oct 5, 2015 2:36 PM   in response to: Lars Fosdal in response to: Lars Fosdal
Lars,

| | As a lone-wolf personal apps "hobby" coder that's WAY out of my
| | requirements range. <g>

| As a hobby coder, that is understandable - but as a lone-wolf coder -
| FinalBuilder + Continua CI would be your sidekick, automating tedious

| stuff such as running unit tests, managing version numbering,
| building various releases, etc. - effectively unburdening you from

| the chores, so that most of the time - all you need to do is to code
| and commit.


I understand. I'll think about it. ;-)

--

Q -- XanaNews 1.19.1.372 - 2015-10-05 14:35:49

Robert Triest

Posts: 629
Registered: 3/24/05
Re: Idera's acquisition of Embarcadero Technologies?
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  Posted: Sep 23, 2015 11:43 PM   in response to: Guenther Schoch in response to: Guenther Schoch
Ilya S

Posts: 21
Registered: 1/8/10
Re: Idera's acquisition of Embarcadero Technologies?
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  Posted: Oct 6, 2015 7:32 AM   in response to: Guenther Schoch in response to: Guenther Schoch
Does anybody use Fossil http://www.fossil-scm.org DVCS for personal projects?

Edited by: Ilya S on Oct 6, 2015 6:33 PM
Joseph Mitzen

Posts: 359
Registered: 6/9/02
Re: Idera's acquisition of Embarcadero Technologies?
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  Posted: Oct 12, 2015 5:22 PM   in response to: Ilya S in response to: Ilya S
Ilya S wrote:
Does anybody use Fossil http://www.fossil-scm.org DVCS for personal projects?

Edited by: Ilya S on Oct 6, 2015 6:33 PM

I know Arnaud does for his Mormot projects.
Ilya S

Posts: 21
Registered: 1/8/10
Re: Idera's acquisition of Embarcadero Technologies?
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  Posted: Oct 7, 2015 12:18 PM   in response to: Guenther Schoch in response to: Guenther Schoch
Officially
Thoma Bravo Announces Sale of Embarcadero to Idera, Inc.
http://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20151007006216/en/Thoma-Bravo-Announces-Sale-Embarcadero-Idera
Kyle Miller

Posts: 117
Registered: 10/4/99
Re: Idera's acquisition of Embarcadero Technologies? [Edit]
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  Posted: Oct 7, 2015 3:13 PM   in response to: Ilya S in response to: Ilya S
On 10/07/2015 02:19 PM, Ilya S wrote:
Officially
Thoma Bravo Announces Sale of Embarcadero to Idera, Inc.
http://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20151007006216/en/Thoma-Bravo-Announces-Sale-Embarcadero-Idera

Interesting. So far, a lot of talk about database tools.
http://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20151007006223/en/INSERTING-REPLACING-Idera-Announces-Intent-Acquire-Embarcadero
Gilbert Padilla

Posts: 315
Registered: 3/8/04
Re: Idera's acquisition of Embarcadero Technologies? [Edit]
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  Posted: Oct 12, 2015 9:41 AM   in response to: Kyle Miller in response to: Kyle Miller

Delphi might not be a priority
Ilya S

Posts: 21
Registered: 1/8/10
Re: Idera's acquisition of Embarcadero Technologies?
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  Posted: Oct 7, 2015 1:00 PM   in response to: Guenther Schoch in response to: Guenther Schoch
ruben van leeuwen

Posts: 1
Registered: 11/24/07
Re: Idera's acquisition of Embarcadero Technologies?
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  Posted: Oct 9, 2015 4:01 PM   in response to: Guenther Schoch in response to: Guenther Schoch
Guenther Schoch wrote:
Hi

Does anyone knows more about this news.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/09/17/sponsored-mmvolume-idUSL1N11N1L820150917
"Jefferies is also leading a US$425m covenant-lite credit to back Idera's acquisition of Embarcadero Technologies. Idera is backed by TA Associates. The deal, which launches on Thursday, includes a US$25m revolving credit, a US$300m first-lien term loan and a US$100m second-lien term loan."

What would that mean for Delphi. As Idera seems to be an "only database focused company".

regards

Günther

www.gs-soft.com

Can't help thinking about the original price "Embarcadero" paid, around $ 200M in 2007.
How many Delphi Developers are there worldwide? Say, 1 million, then if each of us put $ 200 on the table we could've 'owned' Embarcadero/Delphi!!! All profits would be reinvested in the right developments that we are asking for and that have a future, instead of the ones fancy marketing/PE funds want.

Think about it...and contact me if you think we should organise a "worldwide buy back program", I'd be more than willing to organise it:)

Cheers,
Ruben

(ps. totally had enough of the "financial serial-abuse" the PE boys enjoyed with Borland-Codegear-Embarcadero.)

Brian Hamilton ...

Posts: 537
Registered: 10/14/04
Re: Idera's acquisition of Embarcadero Technologies?
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  Posted: Oct 9, 2015 4:21 PM   in response to: ruben van leeuwen in response to: ruben van leeuwen
already other threads about this idea
Wilfred Oluoch

Posts: 1
Registered: 3/20/09
Re: Idera's acquisition of Embarcadero Technologies?
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  Posted: Oct 12, 2015 8:50 AM   in response to: ruben van leeuwen in response to: ruben van leeuwen
I am in! Let's all buy a piece of Delphi and C++ Builder : protect the future!

ruben van leeuwen wrote:
Guenther Schoch wrote:
Hi

Does anyone knows more about this news.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/09/17/sponsored-mmvolume-idUSL1N11N1L820150917
"Jefferies is also leading a US$425m covenant-lite credit to back Idera's acquisition of Embarcadero Technologies. Idera is backed by TA Associates. The deal, which launches on Thursday, includes a US$25m revolving credit, a US$300m first-lien term loan and a US$100m second-lien term loan."

What would that mean for Delphi. As Idera seems to be an "only database focused company".

regards

Günther

www.gs-soft.com

Can't help thinking about the original price "Embarcadero" paid, around $ 200M in 2007.
How many Delphi Developers are there worldwide? Say, 1 million, then if each of us put $ 200 on the table we could've 'owned' Embarcadero/Delphi!!! All profits would be reinvested in the right developments that we are asking for and that have a future, instead of the ones fancy marketing/PE funds want.

Think about it...and contact me if you think we should organise a "worldwide buy back program", I'd be more than willing to organise it:)

Cheers,
Ruben

(ps. totally had enough of the "financial serial-abuse" the PE boys enjoyed with Borland-Codegear-Embarcadero.)


Edited by: Wilfred Oluoch on Oct 12, 2015 8:55 AM
John Kaster


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Re: Idera's acquisition of Embarcadero Technologies?
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  Posted: Oct 12, 2015 3:50 PM   in response to: ruben van leeuwen in response to: ruben van leeuwen
ruben van leeuwen wrote:

Can't help thinking about the original price "Embarcadero" paid,
around $ 200M in 2007.

Do you have a source for that amount?

--
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Joseph Mitzen

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Re: Idera's acquisition of Embarcadero Technologies?
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  Posted: Oct 12, 2015 6:35 PM   in response to: ruben van leeuwen in response to: ruben van leeuwen
ruben van leeuwen wrote:

Can't help thinking about the original price "Embarcadero" paid, around $ 200M in 2007.

That's what was paid to purchase Embarcadero itself. Embarcadero then paid about $30 million for CodeGear.

How many Delphi Developers are there worldwide? Say, 1 million,

That's a wildly high estimation, as a recent report by JetBrains concluded there were 4.4 million C++ developers in the world and 2.4 million C developers. One does not generally find one Delphi developer for every four C++ developers or every two C developers.

Embarcadero Insider suggested that it's between 50K and 150K worldwide, with much, much less actively buying 3rd party components (which may be as low as 8K based on leaked mailing lists of former 3rd party component companies).

Recently I realized I could obtain the raw data for StackOverflow's 2015 developer survey, a chance I immediately jumped at. Out of the 26,087 respondents, the total who had "Delphi" or "Pascal" in their list of primary tech tools was 121, for a little under 1/2 of 1 percent of respondents. Studies from 2013 suggested about 18 million software developers worldwide. 1/2 of 1 percent would be 90,000, meshing rather nicely with Embarcadero Insider's range. Perhaps you add more to account for those who still use Delphi solely to maintain legacy applications and 150K becomes a plausible high-end figure.

then if each of us put $ 200 on the table we could've 'owned' Embarcadero/Delphi!!! All profits would be reinvested in the right developments that we are asking for and that have a future, instead of the ones fancy marketing/PE funds want.

Using 90K and $30million, we'd have needed $333 to buy it away from EMBT. Double that in 2015 to give EMBT a nice profit. However, you'd need operating funding for the company too. Maybe if everyone paid the price of one new copy of Delphi....

Think about it...and contact me if you think we should organise a "worldwide buy back program", I'd be more than willing to organise it:)

It might be too late now though... we have to see what Idera's going to do first. It's unbelievable that Marco or David won't even say "We cant' tell you anything right now" or "Idera asked to be the one handling all the public statements about the merger". That's better than nothing at all. It's surreal to watch David and Marco tweet and blog away happily as if nothing ever happened... Meanwhile, Allen Bauer's told us nothing but he's already gone onto LinkedIn and changed his employer to Idera. Maybe that's a sign they're brushing up their resumes in anticipation of needing new jobs? :-(

(ps. totally had enough of the "financial serial-abuse" the PE boys enjoyed with Borland-Codegear-Embarcadero.)

Since Idera borrowed $450 million, they're going to be looking to pay that off with EMBT earnings so an Idera acquisition is unlikely to change the obsession with next quarter's profits. :-(
Bruce McGee

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Re: Idera's acquisition of Embarcadero Technologies?
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  Posted: Oct 13, 2015 3:35 AM   in response to: Joseph Mitzen in response to: Joseph Mitzen
Joseph Mitzen wrote:

Embarcadero Insider suggested that it's between 50K and 150K
worldwide, with much, much less actively buying 3rd party components
(which may be as low as 8K based on leaked mailing lists of former
3rd party component companies).

Did they, now?

Reference?

--
Regards,
Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
Brandon Staggs

Posts: 633
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Re: Idera's acquisition of Embarcadero Technologies?
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  Posted: Oct 13, 2015 6:31 AM   in response to: Bruce McGee in response to: Bruce McGee
"Bruce McGee" wrote on Tue, 13 Oct 2015 03:35:08 -0700:

Joseph Mitzen wrote:

Embarcadero Insider suggested that it's between 50K and 150K
worldwide, with much, much less actively buying 3rd party components
(which may be as low as 8K based on leaked mailing lists of former
3rd party component companies).

Did they, now?

Reference?

Indeed.

I was told in person by someone who would know, who was with CodeGear,
and who is still very prominent at Embarcadero with Delphi, that there
were about a million licenses (assumed this is all CodeGear dev tools,
not just Delphi). This was back in 2007 or so. I have no reason to
think that number is smaller but certainly not 1/10th what it was. I
also don't think this person was making an outright lie, and have no
reason to trust Joseph's blind estimates over that information.

"About a million" is not an unreasonable estimate at all.

--
Brandon Staggs
StudyLamp Software LLC
http://www.studylamp.com
Joseph Mitzen

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Re: Idera's acquisition of Embarcadero Technologies?
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  Posted: Oct 24, 2015 3:23 PM   in response to: Brandon Staggs in response to: Brandon Staggs
Brandon Staggs wrote:
I was told in person by someone who would know, who was with CodeGear,
and who is still very prominent at Embarcadero with Delphi, that there
were about a million licenses (assumed this is all CodeGear dev tools,
not just Delphi). This was back in 2007 or so.

This is one of the most recurring urban legends about Delphi. Many years ago, someone at EMBT made a guestimate (including estimating piracy) and concluded that a million total copies of Delphi were sold, going back to 1995. People here and elsewhere misinterpreted this and began claiming that there were a million Delphi users, and the legend has continued ever since.

I have no reason to
think that number is smaller but certainly not 1/10th what it was.

You have lots and lots and lots of reasons. :-)

Simple math is one. If there were one million Delphi customers today, and they a paid $400 subscription upgrade, that would be $400 million dollars a year in upgrade revenue to EMBT! Keep in mind EMBT bought Codegear for about $30 million dollars. Is it even remotely realistic to believe that Borland sold a company with that much revenue for that little money? Keep in mind that Idera borrowed $460 million to buy all of EMBT. Those numbers don't even remotely reconcile with the idea of one million active customers (or even semi-active).

You also have figures for other languages. JetBrains released a C/C++ compiler recently and also released the research they'd done to determine what the C/C++ communities looked like. Their figures concluded that there were 1.9 million C developers worldwide and 4.4 million C++ developers (8.x million has also been given via other sources for Java).

Do you think it remotely plausible that there is one Delphi user for every 2 C developers or every 5 C++ developers? No? Then again, this million active Delphi user idea is ridiculous.

I
also don't think this person was making an outright lie,

It's not a lie; it's a misunderstanding that's also based upon John K.'s (I think) back-of-the-envelope estimation. Through a game of telephone the original claim has been wildly distorted.

Let's also remember that CodeGear at the time was... well... delusional. :-( They continued to insist that Delphi.NET was popular when figures here showed it wasn't, when a German forum shut down their .NET section due to lack of activity, when Torry.Net showed little .NET uploads, when surveys showed few Delphi.NET users compared to VCL, etc. A certain someone claimed access to internal numbers that were in complete contrast to all of measurable reality. What happened? The first thing EMBT did was cancel Delphi.NET, which suggests if such internal numbers existed they were not convincing, to put it politely.

and have no
reason to trust Joseph's blind estimates over that information.

I didn't make a blind estimate; Embarcadero Insider revealed the estimate inside EMBT.

Here's my non-blind estimate. I recently crunched the raw data for the Stack Overflow 2015 survey. The number who listed "Delphi" or "Pascal" in their list of primary, currently used technology was 121 out of 26,087, or a little under 1/2 of 1 percent. A 2013 estimate gave the number of developers world wide as approximately 18 million. 1/2 of 1 percent of 18M comes out to 90K, which is nicely in Embarcadero Insider's 50K-150K figure. Toss in those who are maintaining legacy applications with Delphi and it's quite possible to get to 150K total users (not all current paying customers).

By no conceivable manipulation of the Stack Overflow numbers can we get to 1 million or anything close.


"About a million" is not an unreasonable estimate at all.

Brandon, it's completely inconsistent with everything we know about external, objective reality. :-( Think about it - if there were a million users, why would no commercial publisher find it profitable to publish Delphi books in the last 10 years? That's not even taking into account the missing Delphi jobs. Post this figure to a non-Delphicentric forum and you'll be able to gauge how unreasonable that estimate is by the reaction.

Guys, we have to join the fact-based community. We are not one million strong, we are not "as popular as Python" (another claim I recently heard, probably another misconstruing of a ridiculous comment Marco made), we are not "the fastest growing language", etc. We can't fix or improve the language if we don't start from an honest assessment of where we are today.
John Kaster


Posts: 913
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: Idera's acquisition of Embarcadero Technologies?
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  Posted: Oct 29, 2015 11:52 AM   in response to: Joseph Mitzen in response to: Joseph Mitzen
Joseph Mitzen wrote:

it's a misunderstanding that's also based upon John K.'s (I think)
back-of-the-envelope estimation.

I don't recall making any estimates on my own, when Embarcadero has
actual registration numbers for every version. As an employee, I would
have provided officially released numbers. One conveniently available
metric is the download stats for CodeCentral, which has always tracked
unique downloads by each user.

http://cc.embarcadero.com/Stats.aspx

Unfortunately, it looks like the stats updates were broken some time in
the last 60 days, so the numbers are getting further and further out of
date.

--
John Kaster http://johnkaster.wordpress.com
Software solutions
david hoke

Posts: 616
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Re: Idera's acquisition of Embarcadero Technologies?
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  Posted: Oct 29, 2015 12:03 PM   in response to: John Kaster in response to: John Kaster
John Kaster wrote:

unique downloads by each user.

http://cc.embarcadero.com/Stats.aspx

Unfortunately, it looks like the stats updates were broken some time
in the last 60 days, so the numbers are getting further and further
out of date.

That's a fairly interesting metric, 'New Users'...

I'd say 100,788 in the past year would be fairly impressive growth...

Don't suppose you know whether those are 'unique' new users or not...

Or how that number is derived?
John Kaster


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  Posted: Oct 29, 2015 6:29 PM   in response to: david hoke in response to: david hoke
david hoke wrote:

Don't suppose you know whether those are 'unique' new users or not...

It's derived from the accounts people create to download things. It's
possible someone could create multiple accounts, but that was
relatively rare back when I used to look at that data, particularly
since CodeCentral has a view that tells you when something you've
downloaded has been updated. If you download an item after it's been
update, that's the only time your download count for that item
increases.

CodeCentral has a subset of all accounts Embarcadero has in the
membership database.

--
John Kaster http://johnkaster.wordpress.com
Software solutions
Joseph Mitzen

Posts: 359
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Re: Idera's acquisition of Embarcadero Technologies?
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  Posted: Oct 24, 2015 4:38 PM   in response to: Brandon Staggs in response to: Brandon Staggs
Brandon Staggs wrote:

I was told in person by someone who would know, who was with CodeGear,
and who is still very prominent at Embarcadero with Delphi, that there
were about a million licenses (assumed this is all CodeGear dev tools,
not just Delphi). This was back in 2007 or so.

It was Michael Swindell, wasn't it? I did some checking and he was claiming 1.75 million users (note - MORE than current estimates for C developers) back in 2006. He never showed his work and suggested that it was all one big guestimation, e.g. "Actually its not licenses, it's unique users in 2006 not necessarily licenses or more specifically not necessarily paid licenses- ie there is some piracy in there and free editions as well. 1.75m is # of activedevelopers using Delphi.". So, not licenses or people actually paying them. For all we know he may have gone with the original (John k. ?) one million ever sold, assumed they were all unique users and still being used, and then started adding guestimates onto it for Turbo Editions and piracy.

The number has no rational foundation and everyone ate it up at the time (ironically, only Bruce McGee asked a clarifying question and not one soul asked for the methodology). One person pointed out that CodeGear could make almost a billion dollars a year in revenue in upgrade fees from that number, and it still never hit them that the number was absurd. Remember, CodeGear sold for about $30M.

Farshad Mohajeri

Posts: 118
Registered: 12/28/06
Re: Idera's acquisition of Embarcadero Technologies?
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  Posted: Oct 31, 2015 9:12 PM   in response to: Joseph Mitzen in response to: Joseph Mitzen
Joseph Mitzen wrote:
Brandon Staggs wrote:

I was told in person by someone who would know, who was with CodeGear,
and who is still very prominent at Embarcadero with Delphi, that there
were about a million licenses (assumed this is all CodeGear dev tools,
not just Delphi). This was back in 2007 or so.

It was Michael Swindell, wasn't it? I did some checking and he was claiming 1.75 million users (note - MORE than current estimates for C developers) back in 2006. He never showed his work and suggested that it was all one big guestimation, e.g. "Actually its not licenses, it's unique users in 2006 not necessarily licenses or more specifically not necessarily paid licenses- ie there is some piracy in there and free editions as well. 1.75m is # of activedevelopers using Delphi.". So, not licenses or people actually paying them. For all we know he may have gone with the original (John k. ?) one million ever sold, assumed they were all unique users and still being used, and then started adding guestimates onto it for Turbo Editions and piracy.

The number has no rational foundation and everyone ate it up at the time (ironically, only Bruce McGee asked a clarifying question and not one soul asked for the methodology). One person pointed out that CodeGear could make almost a billion dollars a year in revenue in upgrade fees from that number, and it still never hit them that the number was absurd. Remember, CodeGear sold for about $30M.

A. According to this study there are ~11M professional software developers worldwide.

http://www.infoq.com/news/2014/01/IDC-software-developers

B. According to TIOBE Delphi/Object Pascal usage is 1.637%.

A * B = 180.000 Delphi/Object Pascal developers. (Including Free Pascal)

Farshad Mohajeri

Posts: 118
Registered: 12/28/06
Re: Idera's acquisition of Embarcadero Technologies?
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  Posted: Oct 31, 2015 9:38 PM   in response to: Farshad Mohajeri in response to: Farshad Mohajeri
Farshad Mohajeri wrote:
Joseph Mitzen wrote:
Brandon Staggs wrote:

I was told in person by someone who would know, who was with CodeGear,
and who is still very prominent at Embarcadero with Delphi, that there
were about a million licenses (assumed this is all CodeGear dev tools,
not just Delphi). This was back in 2007 or so.

It was Michael Swindell, wasn't it? I did some checking and he was claiming 1.75 million users (note - MORE than current estimates for C developers) back in 2006. He never showed his work and suggested that it was all one big guestimation, e.g. "Actually its not licenses, it's unique users in 2006 not necessarily licenses or more specifically not necessarily paid licenses- ie there is some piracy in there and free editions as well. 1.75m is # of activedevelopers using Delphi.". So, not licenses or people actually paying them. For all we know he may have gone with the original (John k. ?) one million ever sold, assumed they were all unique users and still being used, and then started adding guestimates onto it for Turbo Editions and piracy.

The number has no rational foundation and everyone ate it up at the time (ironically, only Bruce McGee asked a clarifying question and not one soul asked for the methodology). One person pointed out that CodeGear could make almost a billion dollars a year in revenue in upgrade fees from that number, and it still never hit them that the number was absurd. Remember, CodeGear sold for about $30M.

A. According to this study there are ~11M professional software developers worldwide.

http://www.infoq.com/news/2014/01/IDC-software-developers

B. According to TIOBE Delphi/Object Pascal usage is 1.637%.

A * B = 180.000 Delphi/Object Pascal developers. (Including Free Pascal)


Again, there are things that doesn't quite fit in above picture.

For instance, according to TIOBE index JavaScript usage is 2.292%. Multiply it by 11M and you'll get 252.000 JavaScript developers.

Now, look at Sencha web site, a leading developer of Java Script web app tools (*Ext JS* and *Sencha Touch*):

https://www.sencha.com/

They claim that they have 500K active forum members which is twice the 252K total number of JS developers which we calculated above! Also don't forget that there are lots of other popular GUI tools for JavaScript such as AngularJS.

It seems that we should be more careful when trying to estimate number of developers based on raw statistics.
Kim Madsen

Posts: 339
Registered: 12/13/99
Re: Idera's acquisition of Embarcadero Technologies?
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  Posted: Nov 1, 2015 2:29 AM   in response to: Farshad Mohajeri in response to: Farshad Mohajeri
I dont know about others, but I for one regularly program in:

- C++
- C#
- Delphi
- Java
- Javascript

And occationally in others like:

- C
- PHP
- Python
- Shell scripts
- Other scripting

And have programmed in many many more over time.

So the chances are that a developer counts in multiple categories,
why its not completely unreasonable that a fairly large percentage of
C++ and Java developers also code in Delphi for particular projects.

best regards
Kim Madsen
Components4Developers
www.components4developers.com

Den 11/1/2015 kl. 05:38 skrev Farshad Mohajeri:
Farshad Mohajeri wrote:
Joseph Mitzen wrote:
Brandon Staggs wrote:

I was told in person by someone who would know, who was with CodeGear,
and who is still very prominent at Embarcadero with Delphi, that there
were about a million licenses (assumed this is all CodeGear dev tools,
not just Delphi). This was back in 2007 or so.

It was Michael Swindell, wasn't it? I did some checking and he was claiming 1.75 million users (note - MORE than current estimates for C developers) back in 2006. He never showed his work and suggested that it was all one big guestimation, e.g. "Actually its not licenses, it's unique users in 2006 not necessarily licenses or more specifically not necessarily paid licenses- ie there is some piracy in there and free editions as well. 1.75m is # of activedevelopers using Delphi.". So, not licenses or p

eople actually paying them. For all we know he may have gone with the original (John k. ?) one million ever sold, assumed they were all unique users and still being used, and then started adding guestimates onto it for Turbo Editions and piracy.

The number has no rational foundation and everyone ate it up at the time (ironically, only Bruce McGee asked a clarifying question and not one soul asked for the methodology). One person pointed out that CodeGear could make almost a billion dollars a year in revenue in upgrade fees from that number, and it still never hit them that the number was absurd. Remember, CodeGear sold for about $30M.

A. According to this study there are ~11M professional software developers worldwide.

http://www.infoq.com/news/2014/01/IDC-software-developers

B. According to TIOBE Delphi/Object Pascal usage is 1.637%.

A * B = 180.000 Delphi/Object Pascal developers. (Including Free Pascal)


Again, there are things that doesn't quite fit in above picture.

For instance, according to TIOBE index JavaScript usage is 2.292%. Multiply it by 11M and you'll get 252.000 JavaScript developers.

Now, look at Sencha web site, a leading developer of Java Script web app tools (*Ext JS* and *Sencha Touch*):

https://www.sencha.com/

They claim that they have 500K active forum members which is twice the 252K total number of JS developers which we calculated above! Also don't forget that there are lots of other popular GUI tools for JavaScript such as AngularJS.

It seems that we should be more careful when trying to estimate number of developers based on raw statistics.
Farshad Mohajeri

Posts: 118
Registered: 12/28/06
Re: Idera's acquisition of Embarcadero Technologies?
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  Posted: Nov 1, 2015 3:38 AM   in response to: Kim Madsen in response to: Kim Madsen
Kim Madsen wrote:
I dont know about others, but I for one regularly program in:

- C++
- C#
- Delphi
- Java
- Javascript

And occationally in others like:

- C
- PHP
- Python
- Shell scripts
- Other scripting

And have programmed in many many more over time.

So the chances are that a developer counts in multiple categories,
why its not completely unreasonable that a fairly large percentage of
C++ and Java developers also code in Delphi for particular projects.

best regards
Kim Madsen
Components4Developers
www.components4developers.com

Your observation is correct. I mainly work with Delphi, C, C++ and JavaScript.

This is the basic flaw in TIOBE index. They have a list which adds up to 100% with items that each show usage percentage for a specific language ignoring the fact that each developer may use actively more than one language.
A real list must contain items where each item overlaps with other items.

Den 11/1/2015 kl. 05:38 skrev Farshad Mohajeri:
Farshad Mohajeri wrote:
Joseph Mitzen wrote:
Brandon Staggs wrote:

I was told in person by someone who would know, who was with CodeGear,
and who is still very prominent at Embarcadero with Delphi, that there
were about a million licenses (assumed this is all CodeGear dev tools,
not just Delphi). This was back in 2007 or so.

It was Michael Swindell, wasn't it? I did some checking and he was claiming 1.75 million users (note - MORE than current estimates for C developers) back in 2006. He never showed his work and suggested that it was all one big guestimation, e.g. "Actually its not licenses, it's unique users in 2006 not necessarily licenses or more specifically not necessarily paid licenses- ie there is some piracy in there and free editions as well. 1.75m is # of activedevelopers using Delphi.". So, not licenses or p

eople actually paying them. For all we know he may have gone with the original (John k. ?) one million ever sold, assumed they were all unique users and still being used, and then started adding guestimates onto it for Turbo Editions and piracy.

The number has no rational foundation and everyone ate it up at the time (ironically, only Bruce McGee asked a clarifying question and not one soul asked for the methodology). One person pointed out that CodeGear could make almost a billion dollars a year in revenue in upgrade fees from that number, and it still never hit them that the number was absurd. Remember, CodeGear sold for about $30M.

A. According to this study there are ~11M professional software developers worldwide.

http://www.infoq.com/news/2014/01/IDC-software-developers

B. According to TIOBE Delphi/Object Pascal usage is 1.637%.

A * B = 180.000 Delphi/Object Pascal developers. (Including Free Pascal)


Again, there are things that doesn't quite fit in above picture.

For instance, according to TIOBE index JavaScript usage is 2.292%. Multiply it by 11M and you'll get 252.000 JavaScript developers.

Now, look at Sencha web site, a leading developer of Java Script web app tools (*Ext JS* and *Sencha Touch*):

https://www.sencha.com/

They claim that they have 500K active forum members which is twice the 252K total number of JS developers which we calculated above! Also don't forget that there are lots of other popular GUI tools for JavaScript such as AngularJS.

It seems that we should be more careful when trying to estimate number of developers based on raw statistics.
Asbjørn Heid

Posts: 267
Registered: 11/12/12
Re: Idera's acquisition of Embarcadero Technologies?
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  Posted: Nov 2, 2015 1:40 AM   in response to: Farshad Mohajeri in response to: Farshad Mohajeri
Farshad Mohajeri wrote:
This is the basic flaw in TIOBE index. They have a list which adds up to 100% with items that each show usage percentage for a specific language ignoring the fact that each developer may use actively more than one language.

The basic flaw with TIOBE is that everyone seems to think it measures something different than what it does.

- Asbjørn
Rudy Velthuis (...


Posts: 7,591
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Re: Idera's acquisition of Embarcadero Technologies?
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  Posted: Nov 2, 2015 2:48 AM   in response to: Asbjørn Heid in response to: Asbjørn Heid
Asbjørn Heid wrote:

The basic flaw with TIOBE is that everyone seems to think it measures
something different than what it does.

Indeed.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"In ancient times they had no statistics so they had to fall back
on lies." -- Stephen Leacock.
Bruce McGee

Posts: 1,716
Registered: 9/30/99
Re: Idera's acquisition of Embarcadero Technologies?
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  Posted: Nov 4, 2015 3:36 AM   in response to: Asbjørn Heid in response to: Asbjørn Heid
Asbjørn Heid wrote:

The basic flaw with TIOBE is that everyone seems to think it measures
something different than what it does.

Exactly.

--
Regards,
Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
Rudy Velthuis (...


Posts: 7,591
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Re: Idera's acquisition of Embarcadero Technologies?
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  Posted: Nov 2, 2015 2:55 AM   in response to: Farshad Mohajeri in response to: Farshad Mohajeri
Farshad Mohajeri wrote:

This is the basic flaw in TIOBE index. They have a list which adds up
to 100% with items that each show usage percentage for a specific
language

As Asbjørn said, TIOBE does not seem to measure what you probably think
it does. It merely measures what they say it measures. Deriving any
other meaning from that is pure speculation.

And well, percentages should add up to 100%.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Can anything be stupider than that a man has the right to kill
me because he lives on the other side of a river and his ruler
has a quarrel with mine, though I have not quarreled with him?"
-- Blaise Pascal
Farshad Mohajeri

Posts: 118
Registered: 12/28/06
Re: Idera's acquisition of Embarcadero Technologies?
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  Posted: Nov 2, 2015 10:38 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:

And well, percentages should add up to 100%.

Not necessarily.

Consider that there are 10 developers in a conference. Among them there are seven C++ developers and five Delphi developers. (70% and 50% respectively)
Rudy Velthuis (...


Posts: 7,591
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: Idera's acquisition of Embarcadero Technologies?
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  Posted: Nov 3, 2015 7:54 AM   in response to: Farshad Mohajeri in response to: Farshad Mohajeri
Farshad Mohajeri wrote:

Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:

And well, percentages should add up to 100%.

Not necessarily.

Yes, they should.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"I wouldn't mind dying - it's the business of having to stay
dead that scares the shit out of me." -- R. Geis.
Markus Humm

Posts: 4,978
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Re: Idera's acquisition of Embarcadero Technologies?
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  Posted: Nov 3, 2015 9:28 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Am 03.11.2015 um 16:54 schrieb Rudy Velthuis (TeamB):
Farshad Mohajeri wrote:

Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:

And well, percentages should add up to 100%.

Not necessarily.

Yes, they should.

Only for question which allow for a single answer.

Greetings

Markus
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Re: Idera's acquisition of Embarcadero Technologies?
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  Posted: Nov 3, 2015 9:41 AM   in response to: Markus Humm in response to: Markus Humm
Markus Humm wrote:

Am 03.11.2015 um 16:54 schrieb Rudy Velthuis (TeamB):
Farshad Mohajeri wrote:

Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:

And well, percentages should add up to 100%.

Not necessarily.

Yes, they should.

Only for question which allow for a single answer.

Percentages should add up to 100%. That has nothing to do with
questions.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Moral indignation is jealousy with a halo."
-- H. G. Wells (1866-1946)
Gregg Redford

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Re: Idera's acquisition of Embarcadero Technologies?
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  Posted: Nov 3, 2015 10:15 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:
Markus Humm wrote:

Am 03.11.2015 um 16:54 schrieb Rudy Velthuis (TeamB):
Farshad Mohajeri wrote:

Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:

And well, percentages should add up to 100%.

Not necessarily.

Yes, they should.

Only for question which allow for a single answer.
.

Percentages should add up to 100%. That has nothing to do with
questions.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Moral indignation is jealousy with a halo."
-- H. G. Wells (1866-1946)
It is perfectly reasonable to have a situation where they don't add up to 100, because the percentage is actually relevant to the question i.e.
20% using product A (80% don't)
40% use product B (60% don't)
40% use product C (60% don't)
50% use product D (50% don't)
The individual question add up 100%, adding the usage % together = 150% which implies that 50% of the respondents used more than one product. To force a situation where the totals add up to 100% suggests that the questions allow for only one answer, so would ignore multiple product usage.

Edited by: Gregg Redford on Nov 3, 2015 6:16 PM
Asbjørn Heid

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Re: Idera's acquisition of Embarcadero Technologies?
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  Posted: Nov 3, 2015 11:32 AM   in response to: Gregg Redford in response to: Gregg Redford
Gregg Redford wrote:
It is perfectly reasonable to have a situation where they don't add up to 100, because the percentage is actually relevant to the question i.e.
20% using product A (80% don't)
40% use product B (60% don't)
40% use product C (60% don't)
50% use product D (50% don't)
The individual question add up 100%, adding the usage % together = 150% which implies that 50% of the respondents used more than one product.

But you can't draw that conclusion from just looking at the percentage figures alone.

To make the numbers easier, assume all respondents use at least one product, and that when asked they answered like this:
20% using product A (80% don't)
40% use product B (60% don't)
40% use product C (60% don't)
60% use product D (40% don't)

Using your logic, then 160%-100% = 60% use more than one product. Except it's entirely possible the respondents consists of the following sub-populations:
Group X (200 people): Uses A, B, C, D
Group Y (200 people): Uses B
Group Z (200 people): Uses C
Group W (400 people): Uses D

In that case, only 20% of the respondents actually use more than one product.

- Asbjørn
Gregg Redford

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Re: Idera's acquisition of Embarcadero Technologies?
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  Posted: Nov 4, 2015 3:21 AM   in response to: Asbjørn Heid in response to: Asbjørn Heid
Asbjørn Heid wrote:
Gregg Redford wrote:
It is perfectly reasonable to have a situation where they don't add up to 100, because the percentage is actually relevant to the question i.e.
20% using product A (80% don't)
40% use product B (60% don't)
40% use product C (60% don't)
50% use product D (50% don't)
The individual question add up 100%, adding the usage % together = 150% which implies that 50% of the respondents used more than one product.

But you can't draw that conclusion from just looking at the percentage figures alone.

To make the numbers easier, assume all respondents use at least one product, and that when asked they answered like this:
20% using product A (80% don't)
40% use product B (60% don't)
40% use product C (60% don't)
60% use product D (40% don't)

Using your logic, then 160%-100% = 60% use more than one product. Except it's entirely possible the respondents consists of the following sub-populations:
Group X (200 people): Uses A, B, C, D
Group Y (200 people): Uses B
Group Z (200 people): Uses C
Group W (400 people): Uses D

In that case, only 20% of the respondents actually use more than one product.

- Asbjørn

You are right, serves me right for not testing the statistical viability of my example. My point that 'Adding up to 100%' can be relevant to the individual questions is still valid.
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: Idera's acquisition of Embarcadero Technologies? [Edit]
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  Posted: Nov 3, 2015 11:28 PM   in response to: Gregg Redford in response to: Gregg Redford
Gregg Redford wrote:

It is perfectly reasonable to have a situation where they don't add
up to 100, because the percentage is actually relevant to the
question

No, not at all. Percentages have nothing to do with questions. By
definition, they add up to 100%.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Do you see now that your self-righteousness was nothing more
than breeding and years of privilege? You know, we are one
nation under a god. Yes, you were right. An angry, crack
slinging god who decorates with bullets and spent condoms, a
blind god whose eyes are just like yours."
-- Solipsist by Henry Rollins
Brandon Staggs

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Re: Idera's acquisition of Embarcadero Technologies? [Edit]
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  Posted: Nov 4, 2015 5:50 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
"Rudy Velthuis" wrote on Tue, 3 Nov 2015 23:28:07 -0800:

No, not at all. Percentages have nothing to do with questions. By
definition, they add up to 100%.

Are you just messing with us?

Ask 100 developers: "What languages do you use?"

Guaranteed the percentages reported on those languages will add up to
more than 100%.

--
Brandon Staggs
StudyLamp Software LLC
http://www.studylamp.com
Asbjørn Heid

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Re: Idera's acquisition of Embarcadero Technologies? [Edit]
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  Posted: Nov 4, 2015 6:16 AM   in response to: Brandon Staggs in response to: Brandon Staggs
Brandon Staggs wrote:
Ask 100 developers: "What languages do you use?"

Guaranteed the percentages reported on those languages will add up to
more than 100%.

You could also take the geometric mean of the percentages. It would make about as much sense...

- Asbjørn
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: Idera's acquisition of Embarcadero Technologies? [Edit]
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  Posted: Nov 5, 2015 2:34 AM   in response to: Brandon Staggs in response to: Brandon Staggs
Brandon Staggs wrote:

"Rudy Velthuis" wrote on Tue, 3 Nov 2015 23:28:07 -0800:

No, not at all. Percentages have nothing to do with questions. By
definition, they add up to 100%.

Are you just messing with us?

No. Percentages add up to 100% by definition.

Ask 100 developers: "What languages do you use?"

Guaranteed the percentages reported on those languages will add up to
more than 100%.

If you add up the percentages for different languages, you add up
apples and oranges. That's a bit like undefined behaviour.

For each single language, there will be categories, like "all the
time", "frequently", "sometimes" and "never", or more or fewer
categories. These, by definition, must add up to 100%.

You can add up the number of people who answered, and those who didn't.
The percentages will add up to 100% again.


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Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"If a person is to get to the meaning of life, he must learn to
like the facts about himself, ugly as they may seem to his
sentimental vanity, before he can learn the truth behind the
facts. And the truth is never ugly."
-- Eugene O'Neill

Brandon Staggs

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Re: Idera's acquisition of Embarcadero Technologies? [Edit]
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  Posted: Nov 5, 2015 6:35 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
"Rudy Velthuis" wrote on Thu, 5 Nov 2015 02:34:45 -0800:

If you add up the percentages for different languages, you add up
apples and oranges. That's a bit like undefined behaviour.

No. You're being absurdly pedantic. Yes, we all know the definition
of "percent." We also all know that it is perfectly valid to report
percentages that go over the ratio of 1.0. This is so basic and
obvious and just part of real life that it is hopeless for you if you
can't understand it.

--
Brandon Staggs
StudyLamp Software LLC
http://www.studylamp.com
Bruce McGee

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Re: Idera's acquisition of Embarcadero Technologies? [Edit]
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  Posted: Nov 5, 2015 6:55 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:

No. Percentages add up to 100% by definition.

I think you're backing yourself into a corner on this one, Rudy.

--
Regards,
Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
Markus Humm

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Re: Idera's acquisition of Embarcadero Technologies?
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  Posted: Nov 3, 2015 12:30 PM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Am 03.11.2015 um 18:41 schrieb Rudy Velthuis (TeamB):
Markus Humm wrote:

Am 03.11.2015 um 16:54 schrieb Rudy Velthuis (TeamB):
Farshad Mohajeri wrote:

Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:

And well, percentages should add up to 100%.

Not necessarily.

Yes, they should.

Only for question which allow for a single answer.

Percentages should add up to 100%. That has nothing to do with
questions.

Hello,

and how to represent that case where one person uses more than one language?

You cannot say x % of the programmers develop in y then.

Greetings

Markus
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: Idera's acquisition of Embarcadero Technologies?
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  Posted: Nov 5, 2015 3:07 AM   in response to: Markus Humm in response to: Markus Humm
Markus Humm wrote:

Percentages should add up to 100%. That has nothing to do with
questions.

and how to represent that case where one person uses more than one
language?

TIOBE does not measure anything of the kind. It measures how often a
certain string, usually denoting a language, is being used on the netz,
i.e. in one or more well known search engines. You could do exactly the
same, if you wanted to.

I know that many people think that TIOBE measures popularity, but it
actually just measures what it measures. This may be a vague indication
of popularity, or perhaps not, but it certainly does not answer, nor
care to answer, how many people use which language how often.

In other words: it does not matter how many people use multiple
languages or which languages, since that is not being measured anyway.

If you want to measure that, you will have to ask people. How you
present the data, including multiple languages, is your problem.

But that has nothing, really nothing to do with the fact that, by
definition, percentages OF THE SAME THING add up to 100%. You can of
course compare percentages of DIFFERENT THINGS, but that usually makes
no sense whatsoever.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Imagine if every Thursday your shoes exploded if you tied them
the usual way. This happens to us all the time with computers,
and nobody thinks of complaining." -- Jeff Raskin.
Bruce McGee

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Re: Idera's acquisition of Embarcadero Technologies?
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  Posted: Nov 5, 2015 7:09 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:

Markus Humm wrote:

and how to represent that case where one person uses more than one
language?

TIOBE does not measure anything of the kind. It measures how often a
certain string, usually denoting a language, is being used on the
netz, i.e. in one or more well known search engines. You could do
exactly the same, if you wanted to.

I know that many people think that TIOBE measures popularity, but it
actually just measures what it measures. This may be a vague
indication of popularity, or perhaps not, but it certainly does not
answer, nor care to answer, how many people use which language how
often.

In other words: it does not matter how many people use multiple
languages or which languages, since that is not being measured anyway.

If you want to measure that, you will have to ask people. How you
present the data, including multiple languages, is your problem.

All of this I agree with.

But that has nothing, really nothing to do with the fact that, by
definition, percentages OF THE SAME THING add up to 100%. You can of
course compare percentages of DIFFERENT THINGS, but that usually makes
no sense whatsoever.

This not so much.

If you are explicitly talking about parts of a whole, then those parts
will add up to 100%.

If I pour more than a litre of coffee into my 1 litre coffee mug, then
I will have more than 100% of the coffee capacity of that mug. And
cleaning up a mess.

If I drive at 120 km/h on the highway, then I will be travelling at
120% of the posted speed limit. And people will still be passing me.

You have to clarify your terms or there might be misunderstanding.

--
Regards,
Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
Van Swofford

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Re: Idera's acquisition of Embarcadero Technologies?
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  Posted: Nov 3, 2015 1:23 PM   in response to: Farshad Mohajeri in response to: Farshad Mohajeri
Farshad Mohajeri wrote:

Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:

And well, percentages should add up to 100%.

Not necessarily.

Consider that there are 10 developers in a conference. Among them
there are seven C++ developers and five Delphi developers. (70% and
50% respectively)

But in the case of the TIOBE index, they do add up to 100%, because
there is no "question". It is simply a measure of the amount of
internet chatter about particular languages. There is no indication of
how many people actually program in any language, or if they also
program in another. It is simply the percentage of the total chatter
that contains the name of a given programming language.

--
Cheers,
Van

"Good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad
judgment." - Will Rogers
Asbjørn Heid

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Re: Idera's acquisition of Embarcadero Technologies?
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  Posted: Nov 3, 2015 3:37 PM   in response to: Van Swofford in response to: Van Swofford
Van Swofford wrote:

But in the case of the TIOBE index, they do add up to 100%, because
there is no "question". It is simply a measure of the amount of
internet chatter about particular languages. There is no indication of
how many people actually program in any language, or if they also
program in another. It is simply the percentage of the total chatter
that contains the name of a given programming language.

And that's what makes the index useless.

If they had at least normalized it so that the top spot was 1, or say last years top spot was 1, then at least you could see some interesting trends.

- Asbjørn
Van Swofford

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Re: Idera's acquisition of Embarcadero Technologies?
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  Posted: Nov 3, 2015 3:49 PM   in response to: Asbjørn Heid in response to: Asbjørn Heid
Asbjørn Heid wrote:

Van Swofford wrote:

But in the case of the TIOBE index, they do add up to 100%, because
there is no "question". It is simply a measure of the amount of
internet chatter about particular languages. There is no
indication of how many people actually program in any language, or
if they also program in another. It is simply the percentage of
the total chatter that contains the name of a given programming
language.

And that's what makes the index useless.

If they had at least normalized it so that the top spot was 1, or say
last years top spot was 1, then at least you could see some
interesting trends.

- Asbjørn

Yeah, I don't put much stock in it. It is pretty much the same as a
Twitter "what's trending" indicator, which is fine as far as it goes,
but doesn't give much real guidance.

--
Cheers,
Van

"Good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad
judgment." - Will Rogers
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: Idera's acquisition of Embarcadero Technologies?
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  Posted: Nov 3, 2015 11:33 PM   in response to: Van Swofford in response to: Van Swofford
Van Swofford wrote:

But in the case of the TIOBE index, they do add up to 100%, because
there is no "question". It is simply a measure of the amount of
internet chatter about particular languages. There is no indication
of how many people actually program in any language, or if they also
program in another. It is simply the percentage of the total chatter
that contains the name of a given programming language.

Exactly. Deriving any other meaning from that is pure speculation.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"We're going to turn this team around 360 degrees."
-- Jason Kidd, upon his drafting to the Dallas Mavericks
Enrico Pergola

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Re: Idera's acquisition of Embarcadero Technologies?
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  Posted: Oct 24, 2015 10:34 AM   in response to: Guenther Schoch in response to: Guenther Schoch
Embarcadero’s award-winning software tools help application developers and database professionals design systems correctly, accelerate delivery and improve ongoing performance, regardless of platform or programming language. Ninety of the Fortune 100 and a community of more than three million global users rely on Embarcadero software products to increase productivity, reduce costs, simplify change management, and support security and compliance.

“Embarcadero is really two great businesses,” said Randy Jacops, CEO of Idera. “Embarcadero’s database product portfolio expands Idera’s focus on world-class solutions to simplify and accelerate DBA productivity. The application performance tools deliver similar business benefits to an entirely new community of users working to build great solutions for customers. Together, Idera and Embarcadero focus on driving value for users on the front lines of innovation.”

http://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20151007006223/en/INSERTING-REPLACING-Idera-Announces-Intent-Acquire-Embarcadero

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E.P.
Bob Bobson

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Re: Idera's acquisition of Embarcadero Technologies?
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  Posted: Oct 24, 2015 5:10 PM   in response to: Guenther Schoch in response to: Guenther Schoch
I just posted this in the "Letter From Idera" thread as well, but I believe it's relevant here too...

Some of the responses to this thread boggle my mind. I find it incomprehensible that anyone (after 2005 or so) ever actually took the claims of "MILLIONS OF DELPHI DEVELOPERS!" seriously. There is just no possible way that there is, or has been for a long time, anywhere CLOSE to that many legally licensed Delphi developers. I would honestly find it perfectly reasonable if you told me that there were LESS than 10,000 individual worldwide users today. As much as we all may love Delphi here, we also need to be realistic and accept that it is a very, very, very niche product in the year 2015.

Edited by: Bob Bobson on Oct 24, 2015 7:42 PM
eric buysse

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Re: Idera's acquisition of Embarcadero Technologies?
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  Posted: May 2, 2016 5:24 AM   in response to: Bob Bobson in response to: Bob Bobson
Bob Bobson wrote:
I just posted this in the "Letter From Idera" thread as well, but I believe it's relevant here too...

Some of the responses to this thread boggle my mind. I find it incomprehensible that anyone (after 2005 or so) ever actually took the claims of "MILLIONS OF DELPHI DEVELOPERS!" seriously. There is just no possible way that there is, or has been for a long time, anywhere CLOSE to that many legally licensed Delphi developers. I would honestly find it perfectly reasonable if you told me that there were LESS than 10,000 individual worldwide users today. As much as we all may love Delphi here, we also need to be realistic and accept that it is a very, very, very niche product in the year 2015.

Edited by: Bob Bobson on Oct 24, 2015 7:42 PM

There is no reason why Delphi should be a niche program ...In microsoft's hands this would definitly be in the millions.
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