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Thread: Anyone else in this screwed situation.



Permlink Replies: 175 - Last Post: Nov 12, 2014 9:30 AM Last Post By: William Egge
Dan Ridenhour

Posts: 46
Registered: 8/21/08
Anyone else in this screwed situation.
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  Posted: Sep 12, 2014 7:44 PM
All,

First a little about me. I have been a delphi developer since there has been a delphi and going back to Turbo Pascal for CP/M before that. I also spent a good part of the 80s, 90s and beyond evangelizing Delphi when possible and pushing its use in shops I worked in. Never an easy task, but one I thought was worth the effort in those days.

Eventually I settled in with an employer and maintained to Maintenance Agreements, one for my employer and one a personal one for my independent projects.

There was a real shaky patch in my this love affair starting with Delphi 8, .NET where it always seemed like what I was needing was a dream, throught or promise for the next release, delphi was always a couple years behind a fast changing development landscape. There were also several mis-steps with Kylix for unix, FPC for iOS, etc. etc.

Through all of this maintenance was 350-450 a year and upgrades were a bit more but not a major difference. It was very consistent and predictible.

After I got XE3 and things I wanted were now still coming down the road I decided enough was enough, and dropped my personal maintenance agreement, deciding I'll pay the couple hundred more to upgrade when they actually get something done. It really had felt like I had been financing R&D mis-steps but little of use for nearly a decade. To this day my primary delphi dev projects are in D7 and D2007.

I kept my Maintenance with my employer for legacy code, and its easier to keep than justify adding it again in the future.

Here is where it gets interesting...

When i got XE3 they said that the new 'mobile tools' would be available at a nominal fee later that year. They came out at $299 which I thought more than nominal, but that turned out to be a sign of things to come.

Then the XE4 rumblings started... Android dev was coming. I got an upgrade letter to upgrade to the lastest Rad Studio Pro Sku for $499 and get the new release with android when it came out the next month. It was tempting as I wanted android dev but with 10 years of mis-steps I thought id wait... figuring the upgrade would only be $550 or so after it was released.

Then XE4 came out... $899 upgrade cost. Wow, thats a $300 jump in less than 2 weeks I thought. Nope, I pass.

The next month I got an email... special 10% off the upgrade to XE4 and thought... cool I'll take a look maybe they changed their prices... well they did... now that same upgrade was $1079 before the 10% off so still more expensive that it was offered last.

So basically between august and december the upgrade price doubled.

Fast forward to today...

The latest release XE7 hits release with a wopping $1500 rage upgrade price for pro sku rad studio. (enterprise upgrades didn't used to be that much).

I've been doing most of my independent work in Visual Studio Express and the tool i always hated isn't actually so bad these days.

I still maintain the maintenance agreement through my employer but we haven't done any new development in Delphi years, only enhancing existing code bases. We haven't upgraded anything past D2007 because its not worth the unicode conversion unless there was a definite need which we haven't had.

So I guess its sad really. Delphi is still my tool of choice but I rarely use it. I would love to do android dev in it and while I have access to it through my work mainteance since we haven't had a need I haven't touched any of it, never even installed it and wrote a hello world. I jumped ship at just the wrong time and assured I will never personally upgrade to a new edition of delphi again. And after , from my point of view essentially paying for nothing of use for years upon years I feel a little betrayed.

So now when work has a project I go other directions... delphi is never the choice anymore... Ive done all kinds of apps that are on the modern delphi features list but never even consider delphi for the job.

Now I just get reminded of this with each new release email, knowing I have it at work but not even bothering to download it.

A sad end.

Brian Hamilton ...

Posts: 556
Registered: 10/14/04
Re: Anyone else in this screwed situation.
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  Posted: Sep 12, 2014 8:12 PM   in response to: Dan Ridenhour in response to: Dan Ridenhour
and the point of this rant is?
that if you had stuck with the maintenance contract you would now have all the cool new things that XE7 can do?
> Rich <

Posts: 171
Registered: 2/6/09
Re: Anyone else in this screwed situation.
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  Posted: Sep 12, 2014 8:21 PM   in response to: Brian Hamilton ... in response to: Brian Hamilton ...
Brian Hamilton wrote:
and the point of this rant is?
that if you had stuck with the maintenance contract you would now have all the cool new things that XE7 can do?

I think Dan just wishes he could use Delphi more at work.
Dan Ridenhour

Posts: 46
Registered: 8/21/08
Re: Anyone else in this screwed situation.
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  Posted: Sep 12, 2014 8:33 PM   in response to: > Rich < in response to: > Rich <
> Rich < wrote:
Brian Hamilton wrote:
and the point of this rant is?
that if you had stuck with the maintenance contract you would now have all the cool new things that XE7 can do?

I think Dan just wishes he could use Delphi more at work.

Lol. Actually I'm in 100% control of what I use at work. But I tend to be experimental in my independent projects and bring that experience to my work projects. So since I no longer do projects on my own in Dephi (which I admittedly miss at times) I don't use it when I need to do similar work at my job. As a result Delphi is strictly a legacy code tool now... albeit it we do have alot of legacy delphi code.
Markus Humm

Posts: 5,113
Registered: 11/9/03
Re: Anyone else in this screwed situation.
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  Posted: Sep 14, 2014 8:03 AM   in response to: Dan Ridenhour in response to: Dan Ridenhour
Am 13.09.2014 05:33, schrieb Dan Ridenhour:
> Rich < wrote:
Brian Hamilton wrote:
and the point of this rant is?
that if you had stuck with the maintenance contract you would now have all the cool new things that XE7 can do?

I think Dan just wishes he could use Delphi more at work.

Lol. Actually I'm in 100% control of what I use at work. But I tend to be experimental in my independent projects and bring that experience to my work projects. So since I no longer do projects on my own in Dephi (which I admittedly miss at times) I don't use it when I need to do similar work at my job. As a result Delphi is strictly a legacy code tool now... albeit it we do have alot of legacy delphi code.

Hello,

one thing to notice: I'm not sure you know that you most likely have a
"personal licence" type of licence for your work licence.

If so that means you can install it 2 times and you can use it for your
private purposes as well, as it's more or less licenced to you and not
to your company in the first place.

You might want to discuss the implications of this with EMBT folks via
private e-amil. For example you can simply contatc David I or Marco
Cantu about it.

That might get you some updated version for at home to play around with it.

Greetings

Markus
Dan Ridenhour

Posts: 46
Registered: 8/21/08
Re: Anyone else in this screwed situation.
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  Posted: Sep 12, 2014 8:31 PM   in response to: Brian Hamilton ... in response to: Brian Hamilton ...
Brian Hamilton wrote:
and the point of this rant is?
that if you had stuck with the maintenance contract you would now have all the cool new things that XE7 can do?

I guess the point of the rant is that after nearly a decade of paying money for nothing I needed, and informed by 20 years of pricing history for their products I decided to cancel maintenance and wait until they actually produced something I needed / wanted before upgrading. Unfortunately that was the same time that embarcadero decided to double their prices and keep on raising.

In hindsight keeping the maintenance agreement would have been a good thing. Unfortunately the end result is moving away from delphi and no longer recommending it or evangelizing it as I had for most of my career.
Brian Hamilton ...

Posts: 556
Registered: 10/14/04
Re: Anyone else in this screwed situation.
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  Posted: Sep 12, 2014 8:42 PM   in response to: Dan Ridenhour in response to: Dan Ridenhour
In hindsight keeping the maintenance agreement would have been a good thing. Unfortunately the end result is moving away from delphi and no longer recommending it or evangelizing it as I had for most of my career.

I still cant see the point of posting this rant on a public forum for something you admit in hindsight was a mistake at time?
Dan Ridenhour

Posts: 46
Registered: 8/21/08
Re: Anyone else in this screwed situation.
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  Posted: Sep 12, 2014 8:45 PM   in response to: Brian Hamilton ... in response to: Brian Hamilton ...
Brian Hamilton wrote:
In hindsight keeping the maintenance agreement would have been a good thing. Unfortunately the end result is moving away from delphi and no longer recommending it or evangelizing it as I had for most of my career.

I still cant see the point of posting this rant on a public forum for something you admit in hindsight was a mistake at time?

As I said... wondering if anyone else is in a similar situation. Last time I asked a couple years back there were several. Curious if they moved on or sent their $$$ embarcaderos way... or what.
Eric Fleming Bo...

Posts: 48
Registered: 8/11/02
Re: Anyone else in this screwed situation.
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  Posted: Sep 12, 2014 10:05 PM   in response to: Dan Ridenhour in response to: Dan Ridenhour
As I said... wondering if anyone else is in a similar situation. Last time I asked a couple years back there were several. Curious if they moved on or sent their $$$ embarcaderos way... or what.

I'm really happy with my maintenance contract...
Dan Ridenhour

Posts: 46
Registered: 8/21/08
Re: Anyone else in this screwed situation.
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  Posted: Sep 12, 2014 10:17 PM   in response to: Eric Fleming Bo... in response to: Eric Fleming Bo...
Eric Fleming Bonilha wrote:
As I said... wondering if anyone else is in a similar situation. Last time I asked a couple years back there were several. Curious if they moved on or sent their $$$ embarcaderos way... or what.

I'm really happy with my maintenance contract...

Rub it in! lol.

Whats funny is I could be happy with my maintenance contract too... I do have one through my employer... but since I dropped my personal one and usually experiment on my own time first I end up not really using it. It has come in handy when I needed to reinstall Delphi 7 and we had lost the disks in a move, thats about the extent of our use of it in the past couple years. lol.
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Re: Anyone else in this screwed situation.
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  Posted: Sep 13, 2014 12:31 PM   in response to: Dan Ridenhour in response to: Dan Ridenhour
Dan Ridenhour wrote:
Brian Hamilton wrote:
In hindsight keeping the maintenance agreement would have been a good thing. Unfortunately the end result is moving away from delphi and no longer recommending it or evangelizing it as I had for most of my career.

I still cant see the point of posting this rant on a public forum for something you admit in hindsight was a mistake at time?

As I said... wondering if anyone else is in a similar situation.

Look at the ads for Delphi developers. The vast majority of them are for maintaining apps written in D6/D7/D2006/D2007.

I see very few ads for Delphi Devs that aren't where they're also looking for somone with experience in customer relations / support and other non-Dev activities.

Hardly anybody is admitting they're doing NEW product development using Delphi.

I've yet to see a single job req for ANYBODY looking for someone with experience doing Delphi Mobile development.

While most Delphi shops seem to be running 10-year old Delphi installations, very few .NET shops are running anything but the latest version of .NET, or maybe the just previous one. Who's still using .NET 2.0, for example?

A better question is ... how many devs do you see posting these same kinds of complaints about the perceived lack of innovation in .NET / C# to justify moving off of .NET 1.0 or 2.0? Are you freaking kidding me? I cannot imagine a single dev manager trying to justify sticking with a 10-year old .NET platform to his bosses!

But 10-year old Delphi? Sure, seems to be the norm.

I've yet to hear anybody say that the grind of upgrading to new .NET releases is any better or worse than upgrading to new Delphi releases.

Honestly, having worked through the D7/2006/2007 -> D2010 upgrade, it's really not as big a deal as people make it out to be. What they don't want to do is actually SCHEDULE it! They want to be able to re-compile and voila! It works! That's not usually the case. So instead of scheduling one quarter to do the upgrade, they'd rather complain and worry about the impacts of using newer versions of the compiler, because of "features we don't really need".

Yeah, as if MS never forced anybody to upgrade .NET run-time lib + SDK to accomodate the same kind of "useless" features you don't really need either.

It's the same mentality that says "Unit testing is too expensive" and "We don't trust our developers" even though the company has spent thousands of dollars implementing the management side of Agile but refuse to implement the Developer side.

When the industry stats say, "this is what we find over most development teams" and your manager says, "Well, we're the exception to the rule so we'll ignore those stats", you have to wonder about the wisdom of such a management team.

Why do companies jump through hoops to hire the "best and brightest and most highly qualified developers", and then treat them like they're the worst?

Last year I purcased SA for the FIRST TIME EVER. This year, my renewal is far cheaper than it ever has been. Do I use 100% of everything in the box? Heck no! Not even close! What I get is the latest technology and the ability to keep ahead of the curve, knowing that if I'm working at a place that's still using D6 and complaining it's "too risky" to migrate to a newer version, I may have some light to shine on the situation. (They usually don't listen or care, but ... meh.)

I like the directions Delphi is moving in. Of course, there are things I'd like to see done that aren't even on their map, and I scratch my head at things they do that appear more for "appearances sake" than anything useful. But that can be said of any product.

But as far as empathizing with companies who view sticking with 10-year old Delphi platforms because they think moving forward is "too risky", I say pull your heads out of the sand and get with the program! I have never heard anybody use this as an excuse for sticking with 10-year old .NET technology. (Windows XP, yes, but even now that's not even an option for most outfits!)

You cannot expect anybody to take you seriously complaining both that it's "too risky" to move off of a 10-year old platform and simultaneously complain that you can't move your project into directions that the latest versions support (like mobile platform support) because it's "too much effort" to upgrade.

There's a term called "technical debt" that managers in software companies like to pretend doesn't exist. That's a debt you accrue when you choose to stick with older platforms, as the rest of the industry passes you by. The interest keeps accruing year after year, and at some point you're gonna have to pay the piper. It's that simple.

Consider that the lack of your ability to use the latest features is the "interest and penalties" you're paying for 10 years of "technical debt" that has accrued.

By all means, keep ignoring this debt. It won't go away, and it won't get any less over time. But stop complaining about it as if it doesn't exist. It DOES, and it's REAL.

THAT is what you're actually complaining about here. Not Delphi.

-David
> Rich <

Posts: 171
Registered: 2/6/09
Re: Anyone else in this screwed situation.
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  Posted: Sep 13, 2014 4:22 PM   in response to: Guest in response to: Guest
David Schwartz wrote:

Look at the ads for Delphi developers. The vast majority of them are for maintaining apps written in D6/D7/D2006/D2007.

Cool. Where can I find those projects?
Bruce McGee

Posts: 1,716
Registered: 9/30/99
Re: Anyone else in this screwed situation.
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  Posted: Sep 14, 2014 7:20 AM   in response to: > Rich < in response to: > Rich <
Rich wrote:

David Schwartz wrote:

Look at the ads for Delphi developers. The vast majority of them
are for maintaining apps written in D6/D7/D2006/D2007.

Cool. Where can I find those projects?

Where do you look?

--
Regards,
Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
Bruce McGee

Posts: 1,716
Registered: 9/30/99
Re: Anyone else in this screwed situation. [Edit]
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  Posted: Sep 13, 2014 6:26 PM   in response to: Guest in response to: Guest
David Schwartz wrote:

I've yet to see a single job req for ANYBODY looking for someone with
experience doing Delphi Mobile development.

I can think of at least two. :)

--
Regards,
Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
Bruce McGee

Posts: 1,716
Registered: 9/30/99
Re: Anyone else in this screwed situation. [Edit]
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  Posted: Sep 13, 2014 6:33 PM   in response to: Guest in response to: Guest
David Schwartz wrote:

Look at the ads for Delphi developers. The vast majority of them are
for maintaining apps written in D6/D7/D2006/D2007.

Many don't mention a version, but I did just see job posting for Surrey
BC asking for Delphi 5.

--
Regards,
Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
Bruce McGee

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Registered: 9/30/99
Re: Anyone else in this screwed situation. [Edit]
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  Posted: Sep 13, 2014 6:38 PM   in response to: Bruce McGee in response to: Bruce McGee
Bruce McGee wrote:

David Schwartz wrote:

Look at the ads for Delphi developers. The vast majority of them are
for maintaining apps written in D6/D7/D2006/D2007.

Many don't mention a version, but I did just see job posting for
Surrey BC asking for Delphi 5.

I can top it. I just found another one asking for Delphi 4 in Victoria,
BC.

--
Regards,
Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
Dan Ridenhour

Posts: 46
Registered: 8/21/08
Re: Anyone else in this screwed situation. [Edit]
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  Posted: Sep 14, 2014 9:03 AM   in response to: Bruce McGee in response to: Bruce McGee
Bruce McGee wrote:
Bruce McGee wrote:

David Schwartz wrote:

Look at the ads for Delphi developers. The vast majority of them are
for maintaining apps written in D6/D7/D2006/D2007.

Many don't mention a version, but I did just see job posting for
Surrey BC asking for Delphi 5.

I can top it. I just found another one asking for Delphi 4 in Victoria,
BC.

Wow that it 'old' and very odd... its not even one of the normal stop points.... D3, D5, D7, etc. were the releases people were traditionally happy with and stayed there.


--
Regards,
Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
Bruce McGee

Posts: 1,716
Registered: 9/30/99
Re: Anyone else in this screwed situation. [Edit]
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  Posted: Sep 14, 2014 10:02 AM   in response to: Dan Ridenhour in response to: Dan Ridenhour
Dan Ridenhour wrote:

Wow that it 'old' and very odd... its not even one of the normal
stop points.... D3, D5, D7, etc. were the releases people were
traditionally happy with and stayed there.

That's what I thought.

On the bright side, most of the local (Toronto) jobs I've seen are
either for recent versions or are migrating old Delphi code to new
versions.

Progress.

--
Regards,
Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
Arthur Hoornweg

Posts: 414
Registered: 6/2/98
Re: Anyone else in this screwed situation. [Edit]
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  Posted: Sep 15, 2014 12:32 AM   in response to: Dan Ridenhour in response to: Dan Ridenhour
Dan Ridenhour wrote:

Wow that it 'old' and very odd... its not even one of the normal stop points.... D3, D5, D7, etc. were the releases people were traditionally happy with and stayed there.

D6 wasn't too bad either. The main problem I recall is that a lot of stuff was moved to different units because of CLX. But D7 was really stellar.
Bruce McGee

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Re: Anyone else in this screwed situation. [Edit]
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  Posted: Sep 15, 2014 4:35 AM   in response to: Arthur Hoornweg in response to: Arthur Hoornweg
Arthur Hoornweg wrote:

Dan Ridenhour wrote:

Wow that it 'old' and very odd... its not even one of the normal
stop points.... D3, D5, D7, etc. were the releases people were
traditionally happy with and stayed there.

D6 wasn't too bad either. The main problem I recall is that a lot of
stuff was moved to different units because of CLX. But D7 was really
stellar.

That was also the version that enforced separation of design time and
run time packages, which broke a lot of third party components.

Delphi 7 was a polish release, and even then, some people complained
bitterly about it before the first update was released.

History repeats itself.

--
Regards,
Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
Dalija Prasnikar

Posts: 2,325
Registered: 11/9/99
Re: Anyone else in this screwed situation. [Edit]
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  Posted: Sep 15, 2014 10:14 AM   in response to: Bruce McGee in response to: Bruce McGee
Bruce McGee wrote:
Arthur Hoornweg wrote:

Dan Ridenhour wrote:

Wow that it 'old' and very odd... its not even one of the normal
stop points.... D3, D5, D7, etc. were the releases people were
traditionally happy with and stayed there.

D6 wasn't too bad either. The main problem I recall is that a lot of
stuff was moved to different units because of CLX. But D7 was really
stellar.

That was also the version that enforced separation of design time and
run time packages, which broke a lot of third party components.

Delphi 7 was a polish release, and even then, some people complained
bitterly about it before the first update was released.

History repeats itself.

But after it's first update was released it became the most used version ever.

While I keep being optimistic, I don't expect that happening with XE7.

--
Dalija Prasnikar
Bruce McGee

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Re: Anyone else in this screwed situation. [Edit]
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  Posted: Sep 15, 2014 10:38 AM   in response to: Dalija Prasnikar in response to: Dalija Prasnikar
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:

But after it's first update was released it became the most used
version ever.

Yes. It became the best version until Delphi 2007 came out.

While I keep being optimistic, I don't expect that happening with XE7.

Glass half empty?

It's happened before Delphi 7 (I'm looking at you, Delphi 4) and
several times since.

--
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Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
Dalija Prasnikar

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Registered: 11/9/99
Re: Anyone else in this screwed situation. [Edit]
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  Posted: Sep 16, 2014 2:17 AM   in response to: Bruce McGee in response to: Bruce McGee
Bruce McGee wrote:
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:

But after it's first update was released it became the most used
version ever.

Yes. It became the best version until Delphi 2007 came out.

While I keep being optimistic, I don't expect that happening with XE7.

Glass half empty?

Nope. Frankly, I don't see any Delphi version reaching high quality levels
with two major releases a year. There is simply not enough time to polish
the release properly.

That doesn't mean that releases will be bad or unusable. As far as XE7 is
concerned I would use it if I would have it. I would even upgrade to it, but
that doesn't make sense for me at the moment because I am currently focused
at mobile development (Android Studio and Xcode) and probably will not be
using Delphi too much in next few (or more) months.

--
Dalija Prasnikar
Bruce McGee

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Re: Anyone else in this screwed situation. [Edit]
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  Posted: Sep 16, 2014 4:50 AM   in response to: Dalija Prasnikar in response to: Dalija Prasnikar
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:

Bruce McGee wrote:
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:

But after it's first update was released it became the most used
version ever.

Yes. It became the best version until Delphi 2007 came out.

While I keep being optimistic, I don't expect that happening with
XE7.

Glass half empty?

Nope. Frankly, I don't see any Delphi version reaching high quality
levels with two major releases a year. There is simply not enough
time to polish the release properly.

This sounds like you think all development begins from scratch at the
beginning of a release instead of being a cumulative effort.

You should know better.

--
Regards,
Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
Dalija Prasnikar

Posts: 2,325
Registered: 11/9/99
Re: Anyone else in this screwed situation. [Edit]
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  Posted: Sep 16, 2014 5:00 AM   in response to: Bruce McGee in response to: Bruce McGee
Bruce McGee wrote:
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:

Bruce McGee wrote:
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:

But after it's first update was released it became the most used
version ever.

Yes. It became the best version until Delphi 2007 came out.

While I keep being optimistic, I don't expect that happening with
XE7.

Glass half empty?

Nope. Frankly, I don't see any Delphi version reaching high quality
levels with two major releases a year. There is simply not enough
time to polish the release properly.

This sounds like you think all development begins from scratch at the
beginning of a release instead of being a cumulative effort.

I am just obvserving what is happening. New features come in way too
unpolished and buggy.

You should know better.

You should too.

--
Dalija Prasnikar
Bruce McGee

Posts: 1,716
Registered: 9/30/99
Re: Anyone else in this screwed situation. [Edit]
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  Posted: Sep 16, 2014 5:11 AM   in response to: Dalija Prasnikar in response to: Dalija Prasnikar
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:

You should too.

What can I say? My glass is half full.

--
Regards,
Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
Dalija Prasnikar

Posts: 2,325
Registered: 11/9/99
Re: Anyone else in this screwed situation. [Edit]
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  Posted: Sep 16, 2014 5:16 AM   in response to: Bruce McGee in response to: Bruce McGee
Bruce McGee wrote:
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:

You should too.

What can I say? My glass is half full.

I see ;-)

--
Dalija Prasnikar
Markus Humm

Posts: 5,113
Registered: 11/9/03
Re: Anyone else in this screwed situation. [Edit]
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  Posted: Sep 16, 2014 12:59 PM   in response to: Bruce McGee in response to: Bruce McGee
Am 16.09.2014 14:11, schrieb Bruce McGee:
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:

You should too.

What can I say? My glass is half full.

Hello,

yep, and your help for new features is half empty and the other half is
auto generated (nothing bad per se but only partially helpful).

Greetings

Markus
Bruce McGee

Posts: 1,716
Registered: 9/30/99
Re: Anyone else in this screwed situation. [Edit]
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  Posted: Sep 16, 2014 1:11 PM   in response to: Markus Humm in response to: Markus Humm
Markus Humm wrote:

Am 16.09.2014 14:11, schrieb Bruce McGee:
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:

You should too.

What can I say? My glass is half full.

Hello,

yep, and your help for new features is half empty and the other half
is auto generated (nothing bad per se but only partially helpful).

My help?

Let's call the glass 9/10ths full. The help really should be more up to
date.

--
Regards,
Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
Markus Humm

Posts: 5,113
Registered: 11/9/03
Re: Anyone else in this screwed situation. [Edit]
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  Posted: Sep 17, 2014 12:02 PM   in response to: Bruce McGee in response to: Bruce McGee
Am 16.09.2014 22:11, schrieb Bruce McGee:
Markus Humm wrote:

Am 16.09.2014 14:11, schrieb Bruce McGee:
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:

You should too.

What can I say? My glass is half full.

Hello,

yep, and your help for new features is half empty and the other half
is auto generated (nothing bad per se but only partially helpful).

My help?

Let's call the glass 9/10ths full. The help really should be more up to
date.

Hello,

nice that we agree on that one.
I also value whichn new features they implemented, but 2 weeks more time
for polish would have gotten rid of quite a few of the
"children's diseases" some of these new features have and would have
improved perceived quality a lot in my eyes.

Greetings

Markus
Bruce McGee

Posts: 1,716
Registered: 9/30/99
Re: Anyone else in this screwed situation. [Edit]
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  Posted: Sep 17, 2014 12:10 PM   in response to: Markus Humm in response to: Markus Humm
Markus Humm wrote:

nice that we agree on that one.
I also value whichn new features they implemented, but 2 weeks more
time for polish would have gotten rid of quite a few of the
"children's diseases" some of these new features have and would have
improved perceived quality a lot in my eyes.

On the bright side, notice that the docwiki continues to be updated
after a release.

--
Regards,
Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
John Frazier


Posts: 726
Registered: 2/17/00
Re: Anyone else in this screwed situation. [Edit]
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  Posted: Sep 17, 2014 1:34 PM   in response to: Bruce McGee in response to: Bruce McGee
Bruce McGee wrote:
On the bright side, notice that the docwiki continues to be updated
after a release.

Yep I think this is huge. While I have talked to tons of users who equate "help working" with F1 or context-sensitive help, I don't as much anymore. I have pretty good success finding things in docwiki, it's fast, and best of all, I can deep-link to darn near anything so I can share with others. Oh and the fact that it is always the latest version of the help is a big plus to me as well.
--
John Frazier (Embarcadero Newsgroup Admin)
Markus Humm

Posts: 5,113
Registered: 11/9/03
Re: Anyone else in this screwed situation. [Edit]
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  Posted: Sep 19, 2014 12:15 AM   in response to: John Frazier in response to: John Frazier
Am 17.09.2014 22:34, schrieb John Frazier:
Bruce McGee wrote:
On the bright side, notice that the docwiki continues to be updated
after a release.

Yep I think this is huge. While I have talked to tons of users who equate "help working" with F1 or context-sensitive help, I don't as much anymore. I have pretty good success finding things in docwiki, it's fast, and best of all, I can deep-link to darn near anything so I can share with others. Oh and the fact that it is always the latest version of the help is a big plus to me as well.
--
John Frazier (Embarcadero Newsgroup Admin)

Hello,

while I agree that having docwiki is good and that this is easier to
update the online help exposes that URL as well so deep link sending to
somebody else is equally possible!

Greetings

Markus
Rudy Velthuis (...


Posts: 7,731
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: Anyone else in this screwed situation. [Edit]
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  Posted: Sep 19, 2014 4:35 AM   in response to: Markus Humm in response to: Markus Humm
Markus Humm wrote:

while I agree that having docwiki is good and that this is easier to
update the online help exposes that URL as well so deep link sending
to somebody else is equally possible!

Yeah, but only useful if the other person has the same online help
files installed. The docwiki can be reached from everywhere, by
everyone, even by those who don't have that particular version
installed.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"He is one of those people who would be enormously improved by
death." -- H. H. Munro (Saki) (1870-1916)
Brandon Staggs

Posts: 683
Registered: 3/3/01
Re: Anyone else in this screwed situation. [Edit]
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  Posted: Sep 19, 2014 5:14 AM   in response to: John Frazier in response to: John Frazier
"John Frazier" wrote on Wed, 17 Sep 2014 13:34:30 -0700:

Bruce McGee wrote:
On the bright side, notice that the docwiki continues to be updated
after a release.

Yep I think this is huge. While I have talked to tons of users who equate "help working" with F1 or context-sensitive help, I don't as much anymore. I have pretty good success finding things in docwiki, it's fast, and best of all, I can deep-link to darn near anything so I can share with others. Oh and the fact that it is always the latest version of the help is a big plus to me as well.

Is there / will there be an option to have F1 invoke the docwiki
instead of integrated help?

--
Brandon Staggs
StudyLamp Software LLC
http://www.studylamp.com
Marius Ellen

Posts: 64
Registered: 11/22/99
Re: Anyone else in this screwed situation. [Edit]
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  Posted: Sep 19, 2014 12:08 PM   in response to: Brandon Staggs in response to: Brandon Staggs
Brandon Staggs wrote:

Is there / will there be an option to have F1 invoke the docwiki
instead of integrated help?

That would be really neat idea as the dexplorer is taking up to 20
seconds to start even on our fastest computer! And to be honoust the
current distributed help is alway's miles behind the docwiki
Bruce McGee

Posts: 1,716
Registered: 9/30/99
Re: Anyone else in this screwed situation. [Edit]
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  Posted: Sep 17, 2014 1:26 PM   in response to: Markus Humm in response to: Markus Humm
Markus Humm wrote:

Am 16.09.2014 22:11, schrieb Bruce McGee:

The help really should be more
up to date.

nice that we agree on that one.

Of course I agree. There is a lot of room for improvement.

But I still wish some of the people who dismiss the help would take a
closer look at the improvements that have been made since the D2006
days.

--
Regards,
Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
Quentin Correll


Posts: 2,412
Registered: 12/1/99
Re: Anyone else in this screwed situation. [Edit]
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  Posted: Sep 17, 2014 2:59 PM   in response to: Bruce McGee in response to: Bruce McGee
Bruce,

| But I still wish some of the people who dismiss the help would take a
| closer look at the improvements that have been made since the D2006
| days.

I just wish that Help worked on my system! It stopped working with
D2007.

--

Q

1.19.1.372 (Q's Broken Toolbar.)

Bruce McGee

Posts: 1,716
Registered: 9/30/99
Re: Anyone else in this screwed situation. [Edit]
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  Posted: Sep 17, 2014 3:02 PM   in response to: Quentin Correll in response to: Quentin Correll
Quentin Correll wrote:

Bruce,

But I still wish some of the people who dismiss the help would
take a closer look at the improvements that have been made since
the D2006 days.

I just wish that Help worked on my system! It stopped working with
D2007.

Did you try reinstalling the help?

--
Regards,
Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
Quentin Correll


Posts: 2,412
Registered: 12/1/99
Re: Anyone else in this screwed situation. [Edit]
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  Posted: Sep 17, 2014 5:32 PM   in response to: Bruce McGee in response to: Bruce McGee
Bruce,

| | I just wish that Help worked on my system! It stopped working with
| | D2007.

| Did you try reinstalling the help?

More times than I can count. <g> I also opened a case with EMBT. But
it "works" for them and no one could come up with any ideas as to what
the actual issue might be.

Over the past couple of years I have found "Help" functions in other
apps that also do not work on my system. They all use the same Help
"technology" (DExplore) that EMBT uses so I have come to think that
it's a Windows issue having something to do specific with my system.

--

Q

1.19.1.372 (Q's Broken Toolbar.)

Markus Humm

Posts: 5,113
Registered: 11/9/03
Re: Anyone else in this screwed situation. [Edit]
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  Posted: Sep 19, 2014 12:16 AM   in response to: Bruce McGee in response to: Bruce McGee
Am 17.09.2014 22:26, schrieb Bruce McGee:
Markus Humm wrote:

Am 16.09.2014 22:11, schrieb Bruce McGee:

The help really should be more
up to date.

nice that we agree on that one.

Of course I agree. There is a lot of room for improvement.

But I still wish some of the people who dismiss the help would take a
closer look at the improvements that have been made since the D2006
days.

Hello,

yes, the help improved considerably in comparison with that of D2006.
But once again: 2 more weeks before release could have gotten the most
important new features some basic help coverage as well. That's at least
my feeling.

Greetings

Markus
Dan Ridenhour

Posts: 46
Registered: 8/21/08
Re: Anyone else in this screwed situation. [Edit]
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  Posted: Sep 16, 2014 8:26 PM   in response to: Dalija Prasnikar in response to: Dalija Prasnikar
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:
Bruce McGee wrote:
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:

But after it's first update was released it became the most used
version ever.

Yes. It became the best version until Delphi 2007 came out.

While I keep being optimistic, I don't expect that happening with XE7.

Glass half empty?

Nope. Frankly, I don't see any Delphi version reaching high quality levels
with two major releases a year. There is simply not enough time to polish
the release properly.

That doesn't mean that releases will be bad or unusable. As far as XE7 is
concerned I would use it if I would have it. I would even upgrade to it, but
that doesn't make sense for me at the moment because I am currently focused
at mobile development (Android Studio and Xcode) and probably will not be
using Delphi too much in next few (or more) months.

I actually don't have a problem with multiple releases a year if a maintenance agreement is in place AND just as important the tool is going in a well thought out direction. What bugged me so much about the years that disillusioned me was that things were added then dropped or changed then replaced... they were grasping at straws many of them 3rd party for their solutions to make a release and it just didn't work for me.


--
Dalija Prasnikar
Dalija Prasnikar

Posts: 2,325
Registered: 11/9/99
Re: Anyone else in this screwed situation. [Edit]
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  Posted: Sep 17, 2014 2:26 AM   in response to: Dan Ridenhour in response to: Dan Ridenhour
Dan Ridenhour wrote:
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:
Bruce McGee wrote:
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:

But after it's first update was released it became the most used
version ever.

Yes. It became the best version until Delphi 2007 came out.

While I keep being optimistic, I don't expect that happening with XE7.

Glass half empty?

Nope. Frankly, I don't see any Delphi version reaching high quality levels
with two major releases a year. There is simply not enough time to polish
the release properly.

That doesn't mean that releases will be bad or unusable. As far as XE7 is
concerned I would use it if I would have it. I would even upgrade to it, but
that doesn't make sense for me at the moment because I am currently focused
at mobile development (Android Studio and Xcode) and probably will not be
using Delphi too much in next few (or more) months.

I actually don't have a problem with multiple releases a year if a maintenance agreement is in place AND just as important the tool is going in a well thought out direction. What bugged me so much about the years that disillusioned me was that things were added then dropped or changed then replaced... they were grasping at straws many of them 3rd party for their solutions to make a release and it just didn't work for me.

I have dropped my SA for two reasons, it became impossible to expect
anything after EMB dropped mobile from Pro SKU, and Prism from Studio and
releases were going out far too often making it almost impossible to have
stable working environment.

If I am on SA, I am tempted to use new release ASAP, because it fixes bugs
that are bothering me, but at the same time new release usually breaks something
else. I would much more prefer longer periods of maintenance for each release with
only bug fix updates.

--
Dalija Prasnikar
Dalija Prasnikar

Posts: 2,325
Registered: 11/9/99
Re: Anyone else in this screwed situation. [Edit]
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  Posted: Sep 17, 2014 2:29 AM   in response to: Dan Ridenhour in response to: Dan Ridenhour
Dan Ridenhour wrote:
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:
Bruce McGee wrote:
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:

But after it's first update was released it became the most used
version ever.

Yes. It became the best version until Delphi 2007 came out.

While I keep being optimistic, I don't expect that happening with XE7.

Glass half empty?

Nope. Frankly, I don't see any Delphi version reaching high quality levels
with two major releases a year. There is simply not enough time to polish
the release properly.

That doesn't mean that releases will be bad or unusable. As far as XE7 is
concerned I would use it if I would have it. I would even upgrade to it, but
that doesn't make sense for me at the moment because I am currently focused
at mobile development (Android Studio and Xcode) and probably will not be
using Delphi too much in next few (or more) months.

I actually don't have a problem with multiple releases a year if a maintenance agreement is in place AND just as important the tool is going in a well thought out direction. What bugged me so much about the years that disillusioned me was that things were added then dropped or changed then replaced... they were grasping at straws many of them 3rd party for their solutions to make a release and it just didn't work for me.

I have dropped my SA for two reasons, it became impossible to expect
anything after EMB dropped mobile from Pro SKU, and Prism from Studio and
releases were going out far too often making it almost impossible to have
stable working environment.

If I am on SA, I am tempted to use new release ASAP, because it fixes bugs
that are bothering me, but at the same time new release usually breaks something
else. I would much more prefer longer periods of maintenance for each release with
only bug fix updates.

--
Dalija Prasnikar
Dan Ridenhour

Posts: 46
Registered: 8/21/08
Re: Anyone else in this screwed situation. [Edit]
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  Posted: Sep 15, 2014 12:42 PM   in response to: Bruce McGee in response to: Bruce McGee
Delphi 7 was a polish release, and even then, some people complained
bitterly about it before the first update was released.

Delphi 7 has the distinction If i remember right of being the first version to ship with only electronic documentation. Back in those days Borland tools were really known for their great documentation. They were the only ones really using pascal by then and their language and product manuals were really unrivaled.

They understood that when they moved to electronic... so they did an outstanding job on theri electronic doc as well.

Thats one of the things that made it so frustrating later on in the InPrise years when you would be hoping they would get the help right in the next release but knowing that the push for new half baked features was going to take priority leaving a bunch of new stuff to be ill documented along with the rest.

It seriously took from Delphi 8 to Delphi 2007 to get back to anywhere near the same usablity as Delphi 7. Thats why even today my projects are in D7 or D2007.


History repeats itself.

--
Regards,
Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
Bruce McGee

Posts: 1,716
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Re: Anyone else in this screwed situation. [Edit]
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  Posted: Sep 15, 2014 1:05 PM   in response to: Dan Ridenhour in response to: Dan Ridenhour
Dan Ridenhour wrote:

It seriously took from Delphi 8 to Delphi 2007 to get back to
anywhere near the same usablity as Delphi 7.

You won't get any argument from me on this.

--
Regards,
Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
Markus Humm

Posts: 5,113
Registered: 11/9/03
Re: Anyone else in this screwed situation. [Edit]
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  Posted: Sep 15, 2014 1:26 PM   in response to: Dan Ridenhour in response to: Dan Ridenhour
Am 15.09.2014 21:42, schrieb Dan Ridenhour:
Delphi 7 was a polish release, and even then, some people complained
bitterly about it before the first update was released.

Delphi 7 has the distinction If i remember right of being the first version to ship with only electronic documentation. Back in those days Borland tools were really known for their great documentation. They were the only ones really using pascal by then and their language and product manuals were really unrivaled.

They understood that when they moved to electronic... so they did an outstanding job on theri electronic doc as well.

Thats one of the things that made it so frustrating later on in the InPrise years when you would be hoping they would get the help right in the next release but knowing that the push for new half baked features was going to take priority leaving a bunch of new stuff to be ill documented along with the rest.

It seriously took from Delphi 8 to Delphi 2007 to get back to anywhere near the same usablity as Delphi 7. Thats why even today my projects are in D7 or D2007.

Hello,

I fear you remember some things wrong.

1. D7 was after the Inprise years when they were back as Borland
(anyone read about Microfocus, the current Borland owner, now wants
to merge with Attachmate [= Novell, Suse Linux etc. bunch of
companies]. Just got some e-mail from them today announcing this)

2. I had a thick borrowed Borland Delphi 7 manual sitting in my
cupboard for some years. I never really used it as in my eyes it
more or less contained the help's contents in printed form.

Greetings

Markus
Bruce McGee

Posts: 1,716
Registered: 9/30/99
Re: Anyone else in this screwed situation. [Edit]
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  Posted: Sep 15, 2014 1:31 PM   in response to: Markus Humm in response to: Markus Humm
Markus Humm wrote:

1. D7 was after the Inprise years when they were back as Borland
(anyone read about Microfocus, the current Borland owner, now wants
to merge with Attachmate [= Novell, Suse Linux etc. bunch of
companies]. Just got some e-mail from them today announcing this)

True, this was after Inprise changed its name back to Borland, but he
got the editions right. D8, D2005 and D2006 were substandard. D2007 is
when Delphi got back on track.

I didn't hear about the Attachmate thing, but I always got a kick out
of Borland denouncing and divesting itself of its compilers, only to be
bought by a company best known for its COBOL compiler.

Makes me chuckle every time. :)

--
Regards,
Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
Markus Humm

Posts: 5,113
Registered: 11/9/03
Re: Anyone else in this screwed situation. [Edit]
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  Posted: Sep 16, 2014 1:04 PM   in response to: Bruce McGee in response to: Bruce McGee
Am 15.09.2014 22:31, schrieb Bruce McGee:
Markus Humm wrote:

1. D7 was after the Inprise years when they were back as Borland
(anyone read about Microfocus, the current Borland owner, now wants
to merge with Attachmate [= Novell, Suse Linux etc. bunch of
companies]. Just got some e-mail from them today announcing this)

True, this was after Inprise changed its name back to Borland, but he
got the editions right. D8, D2005 and D2006 were substandard. D2007 is
when Delphi got back on track.

I didn't hear about the Attachmate thing, but I always got a kick out
of Borland denouncing and divesting itself of its compilers, only to be
bought by a company best known for its COBOL compiler.

Makes me chuckle every time. :)

Hello,

if you can read German there's some article about it in a well known
known German 7IT magazine:

http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/Micro-Focus-will-Attachmate-Group-uebernehmen-2391452.html

Greetings

Markus
Dan Ridenhour

Posts: 46
Registered: 8/21/08
Re: Anyone else in this screwed situation.
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  Posted: Sep 13, 2014 7:49 PM   in response to: Guest in response to: Guest
David Schwartz wrote:
By all means, keep ignoring this debt. It won't go away, and it won't get any less over time. But stop complaining about it as if it doesn't exist. It DOES, and it's REAL.

THAT is what you're actually complaining about here. Not Delphi.

-David

David, I understand what your talking about with staying with old releases but thats not what I'm complaining about here at all.

I'm complaining about the inopportune timing in Embarcadero breaking from a decades old pricing model just as I finally give up on funding their R&D after paying for maintenance for a decade of products I really had no use for. It was bad timing on my part I understand, but hindsight is 20/20 and there was no indication to their radical departure in pricing or that they would offer the upgrade to me at $499 then double it within 3 months and triple it within 3 years.

As I said before I do keep maintenance at my employer... but we are a small shop, wasting time upgrading to the latest release for the sake of upgrading is money lost if it does not buy us something. For example it took D2007 to get the product back to the stability and functionality it had at D7... so D8... D2006 were evaluated and put aside. D2007 didn't offer much new but refactoring and a few other things bought us some dev time gains so we upgraded. We didn't go to any later releases first because there wasn't any new feature we needed enough to spend the time debugging unicode hickups in our code... then later after i dropped my personal maintenance agreement we just moved on to other tools at my company as well. So delphi has been demoted from our primary tool to legacy code maintenance.

Its amazing how much time IT spends upgrading for the sake of upgrading... its busy work, keeps people employed and their asses covered because the latest versions are in place but its also boring as hell and impractical in a small shop where you live or die by what new things you bring to the table. Customers don't care if your code is in D7 or XE7... they only care that it does what its sold as being able to do for them.
Bruce McGee

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Re: Anyone else in this screwed situation.
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  Posted: Sep 13, 2014 10:36 AM   in response to: Dan Ridenhour in response to: Dan Ridenhour
Dan Ridenhour wrote:

Unfortunately that was the same time that embarcadero
decided to double their prices and keep on raising.

No prices doubled.

Comparing a discount offer with the regular upgrade price is
disingenuous.

--
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Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
Dan Ridenhour

Posts: 46
Registered: 8/21/08
Re: Anyone else in this screwed situation.
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  Posted: Sep 13, 2014 7:53 PM   in response to: Bruce McGee in response to: Bruce McGee
Bruce McGee wrote:
Dan Ridenhour wrote:

Unfortunately that was the same time that embarcadero
decided to double their prices and keep on raising.

No prices doubled.

Comparing a discount offer with the regular upgrade price is
disingenuous.

Actually 100% accurate. All prices mentioned were upgrade prices for Rad Studio with mobile development within the timeframe of August to December of that year.

In august right before the new release I was offered the upgrade at $499... with the new version free upon release.

3-4 weeks later in september when the new release came out I was offered the upgrade at $899.

A couple months later in nov/dec I was offered the same upgrade at 10% off their now low upgrade price of $1079.

That is all offers made to me via email.


--
Regards,
Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
Bruce McGee

Posts: 1,716
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Re: Anyone else in this screwed situation.
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  Posted: Sep 14, 2014 6:55 AM   in response to: Dan Ridenhour in response to: Dan Ridenhour
Upgrade vs upgrade plus mobile add-on.

You're complaining that mobile isn't available out of the box in the
Professional SKU. Fair enough, but it's still not an apples to apples
comparison.

Your options are to get the add-on, upgrade to Rad Studio Professional
or to Delphi or Rad Studio Enterprise.

I strongly recommend SA. There is an up front hit, but you knew that
when you cancelled your SA in the first place in order to wait for an
upgrade that you thought was worth while.

--
Regards,
Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
Dan Ridenhour

Posts: 46
Registered: 8/21/08
Re: Anyone else in this screwed situation.
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  Posted: Sep 14, 2014 9:05 AM   in response to: Bruce McGee in response to: Bruce McGee
Bruce McGee wrote:
Upgrade vs upgrade plus mobile add-on.

You're complaining that mobile isn't available out of the box in the
Professional SKU. Fair enough, but it's still not an apples to apples
comparison.

Your options are to get the add-on, upgrade to Rad Studio Professional
or to Delphi or Rad Studio Enterprise.

I strongly recommend SA. There is an up front hit, but you knew that
when you cancelled your SA in the first place in order to wait for an
upgrade that you thought was worth while.

Again bruce... no thats not what I'm complaining about... every price I was offered and my maintenance were all for RAD STUDIO which included the mobile tools. There wasn't any delphi only in there... although the $499 email I got back then did make a note of it including them mobile tools because they were new then and had only been offered previously as the $299 add-on to XE3.

--
Regards,
Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
Bruce McGee

Posts: 1,716
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Re: Anyone else in this screwed situation.
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  Posted: Sep 14, 2014 10:00 AM   in response to: Dan Ridenhour in response to: Dan Ridenhour
Mobile is not available out of the box in the Professional SKU, even
though the prematurely launched iOS support was in XE2.

Professional vs Professional with add-ons.

--
Regards,
Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
Raul Sinimae

Posts: 92
Registered: 5/8/08
Re: Anyone else in this screwed situation.
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  Posted: Sep 14, 2014 10:24 AM   in response to: Bruce McGee in response to: Bruce McGee
Bruce McGee wrote:
Mobile is not available out of the box in the Professional SKU, even
though the prematurely launched iOS support was in XE2.

Wrong info. RAD Studio Pro has always had mobile included (does not have Firedac C/S included but mobile is in) and OP kept referring to Rad Studio renewals going up

Raul
Bruce McGee

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Re: Anyone else in this screwed situation.
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  Posted: Sep 14, 2014 10:50 AM   in response to: Raul Sinimae in response to: Raul Sinimae
Raul Sinimae wrote:

Bruce McGee wrote:
Mobile is not available out of the box in the Professional SKU, even
though the prematurely launched iOS support was in XE2.

Wrong info. RAD Studio Pro has always had mobile included

You're right. I should have been specific and said Delphi Professional.

OP kept referring to
Rad Studio renewals going up

Rad Studio didn't double in price, either.

--
Regards,
Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
Dan Barclay

Posts: 889
Registered: 11/9/03
Re: Anyone else in this screwed situation.
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  Posted: Sep 14, 2014 7:01 PM   in response to: Bruce McGee in response to: Bruce McGee
Bruce McGee wrote:
Mobile is not available out of the box in the Professional SKU, even
though the prematurely launched iOS support was in XE2.

Maybe that was the problem... "prematurely launched". I've got XE2, with the mobile stuff. I even bought a Mac to play with it. I didn't go very far down that path, just some mini-apps and it was a pita. Between FireMonkey at that stage, and remote/cross/sorta/development it wasn't much fun or effective use of my time.

From your comment I presume mobile is now "ready for prime time"?

It would be good to know what code/vcl is portable between environments. As an example do iXMLDocument and friends cross platforms without code change? ClientDataset? Etc? Etc? Etc? Is all that enumerated somewhere? Sorry if it's in an obvious place and I missed it, I went down a different trail when that one looked too rocky.

Dan
Bruce McGee

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Re: Anyone else in this screwed situation.
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  Posted: Sep 15, 2014 4:46 AM   in response to: Dan Barclay in response to: Dan Barclay
Dan Barclay wrote:

From your comment I presume mobile is now "ready for prime time"?

More ready than it was in XE2.

Pretty much everything that bugged me was cleaned up by XE5, but you'd
get a better idea from people who have been using it commercially for
several versions.

It would be good to know what code/vcl is portable between
environments. As an example do iXMLDocument and friends cross
platforms without code change? ClientDataset? Etc? Etc? Etc? Is
all that enumerated somewhere? Sorry if it's in an obvious place and
I missed it, I went down a different trail when that one looked too
rocky.

I don't know about iXMLDocument, but ClientDataset works like a charm.
I'm not sure if there is a comprehensive list somewhere, but most
FireMonkey code works on all platforms, especially in recent versions.
Pay attention to your compiler hints and warnings.

The big things to watch out for are zero based strings, no 8-bit
strings and arc on mobile. You can hack around the string types, but
that's at your own risk.

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Markus Humm

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Re: Anyone else in this screwed situation.
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  Posted: Sep 15, 2014 1:30 PM   in response to: Dan Barclay in response to: Dan Barclay
Am 15.09.2014 04:01, schrieb Dan Barclay:
Bruce McGee wrote:
Mobile is not available out of the box in the Professional SKU, even
though the prematurely launched iOS support was in XE2.

Maybe that was the problem... "prematurely launched". I've got XE2, with the mobile stuff. I even bought a Mac to play with it. I didn't go very far down that path, just some mini-apps and it was a pita. Between FireMonkey at that stage, and remote/cross/sorta/development it wasn't much fun or effective use of my time.

From your comment I presume mobile is now "ready for prime time"?

It would be good to know what code/vcl is portable between environments. As an example do iXMLDocument and friends cross platforms without code change? ClientDataset? Etc? Etc? Etc? Is all that enumerated somewhere? Sorry if it's in an obvious place and I missed it, I went down a different trail when that one looked too rocky.

Dan

Hello,

for the XML stuff I think XE7 brings a new DOM vendor along which should
be cross platform.

=> you can select which XML "interpreter" you want to use.

Greetings

Markus
Bruce McGee

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Re: Anyone else in this screwed situation.
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  Posted: Sep 14, 2014 11:01 AM   in response to: Dan Ridenhour in response to: Dan Ridenhour
Dan Ridenhour wrote:

All prices mentioned were upgrade prices for
Rad Studio with mobile development within the timeframe of August to
December of that year.

I have to admit that I thought you were comparing Delphi Professional
with Delphi Professional with the mobile add-on.

In august right before the new release I was offered the upgrade at
$499... with the new version free upon release.

If this was the regular price for the same SKU, then you are right that
it's quite a jump.

If you are comparing an upgrade special with the regular upgrade price,
then it's misleading.

The listed upgrade price for Rad Studio XE3 Professional was $799 and
XE4 and XE5 were $1,079. XE6 and 7 were $1,179.

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Dan Ridenhour

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Re: Anyone else in this screwed situation.
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  Posted: Sep 14, 2014 12:37 PM   in response to: Bruce McGee in response to: Bruce McGee
Bruce McGee wrote:

The listed upgrade price for Rad Studio XE3 Professional was $799 and
XE4 and XE5 were $1,079. XE6 and 7 were $1,179.

Whats interesting is I never saw or was offered a $799 upgrade... just the $499 then $899 then $1079 before a 10% 'special' offer.

If I hadn't been so disillusioned with the mis-steps that led to my decision to drop my maintenance in the first place I would have taken the $499 upgrade as it looked good on paper but the trust had been lost by then so I waited until people actually saw it but by then it was going up up up.



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Bruce McGee

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Re: Anyone else in this screwed situation.
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  Posted: Sep 14, 2014 12:55 PM   in response to: Dan Ridenhour in response to: Dan Ridenhour
Dan Ridenhour wrote:

Bruce McGee wrote:

The listed upgrade price for Rad Studio XE3 Professional was $799
and XE4 and XE5 were $1,079. XE6 and 7 were $1,179.

Whats interesting is I never saw or was offered a $799 upgrade...
just the $499 then $899 then $1079 before a 10% 'special' offer.

I don't suppose this was a one time offer to upgrade Delphi
Professional users to Rad Studio Professional?

If I hadn't been so disillusioned with the mis-steps that led to my
decision to drop my maintenance in the first place I would have taken
the $499 upgrade as it looked good on paper but the trust had been
lost by then so I waited until people actually saw it but by then it
was going up up up.

Your choice.

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Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
Dan Ridenhour

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Re: Anyone else in this screwed situation.
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  Posted: Sep 15, 2014 12:47 PM   in response to: Bruce McGee in response to: Bruce McGee
Bruce McGee wrote:
Dan Ridenhour wrote:

Bruce McGee wrote:

The listed upgrade price for Rad Studio XE3 Professional was $799
and XE4 and XE5 were $1,079. XE6 and 7 were $1,179.

Whats interesting is I never saw or was offered a $799 upgrade...
just the $499 then $899 then $1079 before a 10% 'special' offer.

I don't suppose this was a one time offer to upgrade Delphi
Professional users to Rad Studio Professional?

All of the offers made to me were upgrading from one version of RAD studio to the next. I've had Rad studio since it was available. Even before the Rad sku there was usually usually upgrade offers that threw in C++, etc. and I usually got those. Although my use of C++ since OS/2 hs been almost nil and I think I used microsoft tools then. lol.



If I hadn't been so disillusioned with the mis-steps that led to my
decision to drop my maintenance in the first place I would have taken
the $499 upgrade as it looked good on paper but the trust had been
lost by then so I waited until people actually saw it but by then it
was going up up up.

Your choice.

--
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Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
Bruce McGee

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Re: Anyone else in this screwed situation.
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  Posted: Sep 15, 2014 12:52 PM   in response to: Dan Ridenhour in response to: Dan Ridenhour
Dan Ridenhour wrote:

Bruce McGee wrote:
Dan Ridenhour wrote:

Whats interesting is I never saw or was offered a $799 upgrade...
just the $499 then $899 then $1079 before a 10% 'special' offer.

I don't suppose this was a one time offer to upgrade Delphi
Professional users to Rad Studio Professional?

All of the offers made to me were upgrading from one version of RAD
studio to the next.

Was this a special offer with discounted pricing or not?

I've had Rad studio since it was available.

That was my mistake.

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Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
Dan Ridenhour

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Re: Anyone else in this screwed situation.
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  Posted: Sep 19, 2014 7:49 PM   in response to: Bruce McGee in response to: Bruce McGee
Bruce McGee wrote:
Dan Ridenhour wrote:

Bruce McGee wrote:
Dan Ridenhour wrote:

Whats interesting is I never saw or was offered a $799 upgrade...
just the $499 then $899 then $1079 before a 10% 'special' offer.

I don't suppose this was a one time offer to upgrade Delphi
Professional users to Rad Studio Professional?

All of the offers made to me were upgrading from one version of RAD
studio to the next.

Was this a special offer with discounted pricing or not?

the first $499 offer email I got was a pre-release special... back in those days every release like clockwork they would send out an update 'early' offer about a month before the new release... upgrade now and get the new release and/or these extras free. It had been like that for years... then if you didn't take the pre-release special the release would come along for $50-100 more in about a month or so. I needed to actually see it before buying after all the mis-steps that had me drop the SA in the first place... so I thought... ok its worth an extra $50-100 to see it before I buy and I waited. The jump to $899 for the upgrade 3 weeks later was unprecedented in my history with with delphi.



I've had Rad studio since it was available.

That was my mistake.

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John Frazier


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  Posted: Sep 13, 2014 9:58 AM   in response to: Brian Hamilton ... in response to: Brian Hamilton ...
Brian Hamilton wrote:
and the point of this rant is?
that if you had stuck with the maintenance contract you would now have all the cool new things that XE7 can do?

That was exactly how I read it too.

Dan, I feel for ya but you mixed terms here between maintenance and upgrades. Staying on maintenance is really the way to go and that comes from me as a consumer, not as an employee. It just makes more sense to me.
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Dan Ridenhour

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  Posted: Sep 13, 2014 8:06 PM   in response to: John Frazier in response to: John Frazier
John Frazier wrote:
Brian Hamilton wrote:
and the point of this rant is?
that if you had stuck with the maintenance contract you would now have all the cool new things that XE7 can do?

That was exactly how I read it too.

Dan, I feel for ya but you mixed terms here between maintenance and upgrades. Staying on maintenance is really the way to go and that comes from me as a consumer, not as an employee. It just makes more sense to me.

I agree 100% that staying on maintenance is the way to go. Hindsight is 20/20. At the time I had made sure my employer maintained one and I had one for myself... but with all the mis-steps, promising starts that went no where and endless bundling / unbundling of stuff I just didn't have any faith left after dumping what 10k down that hole over the past decade.

Ironically XE4 finally released with what seemed to be something I could actually use in android develpment. But by the time that looked to be true instead of vapor the upgrades had went through the roof.

I understand that I talked about maintenance and upgrades... historically (i've been buying their stuff since 84) the upgrades were within 100-200 of maintenance... and the upgrades offered right before a new release were usually $50-100 cheaper than after the new release.

So I dropped maintenance expecting to pay $500-600 for an upgrade whenever they got something out I wanted. Those had been the prices more or less for a decade.

When I got the $499 upgrade offer I thought looks good but don't trust them anymore lets see if its real... figuring id have to pay another $100 for waiting but wanting to see if it was real. So when the price jacked up to $899 that was a shock and the end of looking to delphi for new projects.

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Quentin Correll


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Re: Anyone else in this screwed situation.
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  Posted: Sep 14, 2014 11:18 AM   in response to: Dan Ridenhour in response to: Dan Ridenhour
Dan,

| So I dropped maintenance expecting to pay $500-600 for an upgrade
| whenever they got something out I wanted.

"Expecting" was an "assumption." I'm sure that you know the old saying
about "assume." ;-)

Like you, I've been with Borland/CodeGear/Embarcadero for a LONG time
(TP 1.0 CP/M). Luckily I have chosen to maintain SA since it was first
offered.

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Q

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Bruce McGee

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Re: Anyone else in this screwed situation.
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  Posted: Sep 14, 2014 11:25 AM   in response to: Quentin Correll in response to: Quentin Correll
Quentin Correll wrote:

Dan,

So I dropped maintenance expecting to pay $500-600 for an upgrade
whenever they got something out I wanted.

"Expecting" was an "assumption." I'm sure that you know the old
saying about "assume." ;-)

Like you, I've been with Borland/CodeGear/Embarcadero for a LONG time
(TP 1.0 CP/M). Luckily I have chosen to maintain SA since it was
first offered.

The first subscription options I remember Borland offering were around
Delphi 3 (small business partner kind of thing, iirc). It's evolved a
lot since then.

I think they have struck a pretty good balance.

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Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
Quentin Correll


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Re: Anyone else in this screwed situation.
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  Posted: Sep 14, 2014 3:41 PM   in response to: Bruce McGee in response to: Bruce McGee
Bruce,

| The first subscription options I remember Borland offering were around
| Delphi 3 (small business partner kind of thing, iirc). It's evolved a
| lot since then.

Yep. As I recall, Borland (They?) used to offer a lower "upgrade"
price if one was upgrading from THE immediately prior version.

| I think they have struck a pretty good balance.

Agreed.

I now only have RAD Studio Pro (Used to also have Enterprise.) but SA
has been working well for me.

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Dan Ridenhour

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Re: Anyone else in this screwed situation.
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  Posted: Sep 15, 2014 12:56 PM   in response to: Quentin Correll in response to: Quentin Correll
Quentin Correll wrote:
Dan,

| So I dropped maintenance expecting to pay $500-600 for an upgrade
| whenever they got something out I wanted.

"Expecting" was an "assumption." I'm sure that you know the old saying
about "assume." ;-)

It was an educated assumption though... There had not been a radical increase in pricing like that ever... prices were consistent year to year with minor increases from time to time. I expected minor increases as historically they had happened. I did not expect or given the information I had have any reason to expect the price increasing so radically in such a short time frame. The $499, $899, $1079 pricing in the span of a few months was like dangling something in your face and pulling it out of reach repeatedly. It was annoying, and to me at least the message it sent was 'we dont care about our loyal customers anymore, we want to make money off the new mobile customers'. I even remember a number of threads in this forum to that effect at the time... and it did start my development down non-delphi paths and picking other tools for new projects. Its actually worked out well financially as I've been able to hit new platforms much quicker.... but I miss delphi, its home in a way so hopefully someday an $400-600 upgrade will come along. probably when they run out of new customers and have to start catering to their old ones again.


Like you, I've been with Borland/CodeGear/Embarcadero for a LONG time
(TP 1.0 CP/M). Luckily I have chosen to maintain SA since it was first
offered.

Thats Cool! I've never found anyone else thats used TP on CP/M. I learned on it, wrote my first 1k Virtual Machine with a simple assembly language on it. Had the wierdest computer setup... a Commodore 128 with an 8080 cpu daughter card to boot CP/M.



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Quentin Correll


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Re: Anyone else in this screwed situation.
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  Posted: Sep 15, 2014 3:49 PM   in response to: Dan Ridenhour in response to: Dan Ridenhour
Dan,

| It was annoying, and to me at least the message it sent was 'we dont
| care about our loyal customers anymore, we want to make money off the
| new mobile customers'.

I do not disagree with that assumption. ;-)

| Thats Cool! I've never found anyone else thats used TP on CP/M. I
| learned on it, wrote my first 1k Virtual Machine with a simple
| assembly language on it. Had the wierdest computer setup... a
| Commodore 128 with an 8080 cpu daughter card to boot CP/M.

I didn't realize you were that old. ;-)

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John Frazier


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  Posted: Sep 16, 2014 12:15 AM   in response to: Quentin Correll in response to: Quentin Correll
Quentin Correll wrote:
Dan,

| It was annoying, and to me at least the message it sent was 'we dont
| care about our loyal customers anymore, we want to make money off the
| new mobile customers'.

I do not disagree with that assumption. ;-)

| Thats Cool! I've never found anyone else thats used TP on CP/M. I
| learned on it, wrote my first 1k Virtual Machine with a simple
| assembly language on it. Had the wierdest computer setup... a
| Commodore 128 with an 8080 cpu daughter card to boot CP/M.

I didn't realize you were that old. ;-)

I was CP/M user long ago myself. Originally used it on our mini computers and wrote 6809 assembly rockin' 8" floppies :) Also, I have not cracked it open in a long time but my last Apple ][ is in garage and I may still have one of the hard to find CP/M cards.
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Quentin Correll


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  Posted: Sep 16, 2014 9:57 AM   in response to: John Frazier in response to: John Frazier
John,

| I was CP/M user long ago myself. Originally used it on our mini
| computers and wrote 6809 assembly rockin' 8" floppies :)

Those were the days! When an entire OS fit on an 8" floppy! <g>

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Nick Hodges

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Re: Anyone else in this screwed situation.
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  Posted: Sep 16, 2014 10:37 AM   in response to: Quentin Correll in response to: Quentin Correll
Quentin Correll wrote:


Those were the days! When an entire OS fit on an 8" floppy! <g>

Someday we'll say "Those were the days, when an entire OS fit on a
DVD!"

:-)

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Nick
Delphi Programming is Fun
Quentin Correll


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  Posted: Sep 16, 2014 12:23 PM   in response to: Nick Hodges in response to: Nick Hodges
Nick,

| | Those were the days! When an entire OS fit on an 8" floppy! <g>
|
| Someday we'll say "Those were the days, when an entire OS fit on a
| DVD!"

| :-)

Uhhh,... don't look now but I think we may already be there! The last
few XE ISO's require dual-layer 8+GB DVD's!!! A standard DVD won't
work.

[BTW - Did you get my e-mail? ]

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Nick Hodges

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  Posted: Sep 16, 2014 1:06 PM   in response to: Quentin Correll in response to: Quentin Correll
Quentin Correll wrote:

[BTW - Did you get my e-mail? ]

I did -- I'll get to it tonight.

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Nick
Delphi Programming is Fun
Quentin Correll


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  Posted: Sep 16, 2014 2:08 PM   in response to: Nick Hodges in response to: Nick Hodges
Nick,

| I did -- I'll get to it tonight.

There is NO hurry. It is just for my own personal reading to "complete
the thought." I think it was an excellent set of articles and
references!

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John Frazier


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  Posted: Sep 16, 2014 8:19 PM   in response to: Quentin Correll in response to: Quentin Correll
Quentin Correll wrote:
Nick,

| | Those were the days! When an entire OS fit on an 8" floppy! <g>
|
| Someday we'll say "Those were the days, when an entire OS fit on a
| DVD!"

| :-)

Uhhh,... don't look now but I think we may already be there! The last
few XE ISO's require dual-layer 8+GB DVD's!!! A standard DVD won't
work.

Uhh, we're way beyond Kansas Toto. Been installing and running OS' off thumb drives for a few years now! When I have a high speed microSD now with 64GB of disposable data. Not the fastest for daily driver OS read/writes and we'll get there soon. I can see thumb drives getting to speeds of current SSDs in a couple years.
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Quentin Correll


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  Posted: Sep 17, 2014 11:04 AM   in response to: John Frazier in response to: John Frazier
John,

| Uhh, we're way beyond Kansas Toto. Been installing and running OS'
| off thumb drives for a few years now!

See?! <g>

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Dan Ridenhour

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  Posted: Sep 19, 2014 7:52 PM   in response to: Nick Hodges in response to: Nick Hodges
Nick Hodges wrote:
Quentin Correll wrote:


Those were the days! When an entire OS fit on an 8" floppy! <g>

Someday we'll say "Those were the days, when an entire OS fit on a
DVD!"

Yep, if we aren't already there. I still remember my c64 with 1541 5.25" floppy and thinking there is absolutely no way I'll fill one 174k floppy. At the time I wondered why it was a removable drive, you don't need more than one. lol.

:-)

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Nick
Delphi Programming is Fun
Nick Hodges

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  Posted: Sep 20, 2014 5:52 AM   in response to: Dan Ridenhour in response to: Dan Ridenhour
Dan Ridenhour wrote:

Yep, if we aren't already there.

As a side note, I spent a ton of money on a very large iMac for my
wife, and it doesn't have a DVD drive.

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Nick
Delphi Programming is Fun
David Clegg

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  Posted: Sep 21, 2014 7:03 PM   in response to: Nick Hodges in response to: Nick Hodges
Nick Hodges wrote:

As a side note, I spent a ton of money on a very large iMac for my
wife, and it doesn't have a DVD drive.

Ditto my top of the line Macbook Pro, which I purchased last year. And
to be honest, I can't say I've been overly bothered the ommission.

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Dalija Prasnikar

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  Posted: Sep 22, 2014 12:11 AM   in response to: David Clegg in response to: David Clegg
David Clegg wrote:
Nick Hodges wrote:

As a side note, I spent a ton of money on a very large iMac for my
wife, and it doesn't have a DVD drive.

Ditto my top of the line Macbook Pro, which I purchased last year. And
to be honest, I can't say I've been overly bothered the ommission.

My Mac Mini also doesn't have DVD drive. The only time I had to plug
in portable one was when I was installing Windows in Boot Camp.

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Nick Hodges

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  Posted: Sep 23, 2014 6:12 AM   in response to: David Clegg in response to: David Clegg
David Clegg wrote:

Ditto my top of the line Macbook Pro, which I purchased last year. And
to be honest, I can't say I've been overly bothered the ommission.

I don't think I've ever placed a CD or DVD in the drive that I do have
in this Toshiba laptop.

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Nick
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Rudy Velthuis (...


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  Posted: Sep 23, 2014 4:34 PM   in response to: Nick Hodges in response to: Nick Hodges
Nick Hodges wrote:

David Clegg wrote:

Ditto my top of the line Macbook Pro, which I purchased last year.
And to be honest, I can't say I've been overly bothered the
ommission.

I don't think I've ever placed a CD or DVD in the drive that I do have
in this Toshiba laptop.

I still buy CDs, every now and then, and I ususally rip them using the
Mac. So I am glad my iMac has a CD/DVD drive. I also sometimes read
DVDs with Linux distros.

And in my clinic, I regularly get CDs with X-rays, from other dentists
or from surgeons, in DICOM format. For that I do need a CD drive.

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David Clegg

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  Posted: Sep 23, 2014 4:58 PM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:

I still buy CDs, every now and then, and I ususally rip them using the
Mac. So I am glad my iMac has a CD/DVD drive.

We're pretty much in the same boat, and the iMac's optical drive is
primarily used for getting CDs into iTunes then onto my iPhone (and
made available to our sound system downstairs via our Apple TV).

But this is becoming less of a requirement now, as I migrate to the
"latest" format (vinyl) for my music needs. :-)

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Eivind Bakkestuen


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  Posted: Sep 23, 2014 11:38 PM   in response to: David Clegg in response to: David Clegg
But this is becoming less of a requirement now, as I migrate to the
"latest" format (vinyl) for my music needs. :-)

I hear the new LP drive for computers will have awesome sound quality,
and a requirement for a rather large cabinet. Standard model comes with
solid state DACs, while the more upmarket one will have a system built
on 32 6L6 vacuum tubes (electric guitar input optional extra).

--
Eivind Bakkestuen [NDD]
Quentin Correll


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Re: Anyone else in this screwed situation.
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  Posted: Sep 24, 2014 10:22 AM   in response to: Eivind Bakkestuen in response to: Eivind Bakkestuen
Eivind,

| the more upmarket one will have a system built
| on 32 6L6 vacuum tubes

OMG! They could have at least used only 8 5080's!

--

Q

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Quentin Correll


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Re: Anyone else in this screwed situation.
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  Posted: Sep 24, 2014 10:20 AM   in response to: David Clegg in response to: David Clegg
David,

| But this is becoming less of a requirement now, as I migrate to the
| "latest" format (vinyl) for my music needs. :-)

I have a vinyl collection going back many decades. <g>

--

Q

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David Clegg

Posts: 90
Registered: 2/11/01
Re: Anyone else in this screwed situation.
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  Posted: Sep 24, 2014 1:26 PM   in response to: Quentin Correll in response to: Quentin Correll
Quentin Correll wrote:

I have a vinyl collection going back many decades. <g>

I had a decent one from the 80s. But my Mum gave 1/2 of it away when my
wife and I moved to Australia. Lots of rare and imported quality 80s
metal (yes, that IS a thing :-))

--
Cheers,
David Clegg
dclegg at gmail dot com
http://cc.embarcadero.com/author/72299
QualityCentral. The best way to bug Embarcadero about bugs.
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Dan Ridenhour

Posts: 46
Registered: 8/21/08
Re: Anyone else in this screwed situation.
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  Posted: Sep 19, 2014 9:06 AM   in response to: John Frazier in response to: John Frazier
John Frazier wrote:
Quentin Correll wrote:
Dan,

| It was annoying, and to me at least the message it sent was 'we dont
| care about our loyal customers anymore, we want to make money off the
| new mobile customers'.

I do not disagree with that assumption. ;-)

| Thats Cool! I've never found anyone else thats used TP on CP/M. I
| learned on it, wrote my first 1k Virtual Machine with a simple
| assembly language on it. Had the wierdest computer setup... a
| Commodore 128 with an 8080 cpu daughter card to boot CP/M.

I didn't realize you were that old. ;-)

I was CP/M user long ago myself. Originally used it on our mini computers and wrote 6809 assembly rockin' 8" floppies :) Also, I have not cracked it open in a long time but my last Apple ][ is in garage and I may still have one of the hard to find CP/M cards.

The 6809 was a hell of a chip in its day. The 6809E breathed new life into radio shacks coco. Spent many an all-nighters one-upping my coco friends with my c128. fun times.


--
John Frazier (Embarcadero Newsgroup Admin)
Dan Ridenhour

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Registered: 8/21/08
Re: Anyone else in this screwed situation.
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  Posted: Sep 16, 2014 12:47 PM   in response to: Quentin Correll in response to: Quentin Correll
Quentin Correll wrote:
Dan,

| Thats Cool! I've never found anyone else thats used TP on CP/M. I
| learned on it, wrote my first 1k Virtual Machine with a simple
| assembly language on it. Had the wierdest computer setup... a
| Commodore 128 with an 8080 cpu daughter card to boot CP/M.

I didn't realize you were that old. ;-)

Yep, I started using Borland tools when it was still Philippe Kahn's company.


--

Q

1.19.1.372 (Q's Broken Toolbar.)
Dalija Prasnikar

Posts: 2,325
Registered: 11/9/99
Re: Anyone else in this screwed situation.
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  Posted: Sep 16, 2014 4:23 AM   in response to: Dan Ridenhour in response to: Dan Ridenhour
Dan Ridenhour wrote:
Quentin Correll wrote:
Dan,

| So I dropped maintenance expecting to pay $500-600 for an upgrade
| whenever they got something out I wanted.

"Expecting" was an "assumption." I'm sure that you know the old saying
about "assume." ;-)

It was an educated assumption though... There had not been a radical increase in pricing like that ever... prices were consistent year to year with minor increases from time to time. I expected minor increases as historically they had happened. I did not expect or given the information I had have any reason to expect the price increasing so radically in such a short time frame. The $499, $899, $1079 pricing in the span of a few months was like dangling something in your face and pulling it out of reach repeatedly. It was annoying, and to me at least the message it sent was 'we dont care about our loyal customers anymore, we want to make money off the new mobile customers'. I even remember a number of threads in this forum to that effect at the time... and it did start my development down non-delphi paths and picking other tools for new projects. Its actually worked out well financially as I've been able to hit new platforms much quicker.... but I miss delphi, its home in a way so hopefully someday an $400-600 upgrade will come along. probably when they run out of new customers and have to start catering to their old ones again.


Like you, I've been with Borland/CodeGear/Embarcadero for a LONG time
(TP 1.0 CP/M). Luckily I have chosen to maintain SA since it was first
offered.

Thats Cool! I've never found anyone else thats used TP on CP/M. I learned on it, wrote my first 1k Virtual Machine with a simple assembly language on it. Had the wierdest computer setup... a Commodore 128 with an 8080 cpu daughter card to boot CP/M.

I have learned TP on CP/M in school. I also had C128 but only with tape
recorder because I didn't have enough money to buy disk drive at first.

By the time I managed to save enough money to puchase disk drive, my
teacher told me to get rid of C128 and go for PC XT.

--
Dalija Prasnikar
Quentin Correll


Posts: 2,412
Registered: 12/1/99
Re: Anyone else in this screwed situation.
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  Posted: Sep 16, 2014 9:58 AM   in response to: Dalija Prasnikar in response to: Dalija Prasnikar
Dalija,

| By the time I managed to save enough money to puchase disk drive, my
| teacher told me to get rid of C128 and go for PC XT.

Good recommendation by your teacher! ;-)

--

Q

1.19.1.372 (Q's Broken Toolbar.)

Dalija Prasnikar

Posts: 2,325
Registered: 11/9/99
Re: Anyone else in this screwed situation.
Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this thread Reply
  Posted: Sep 16, 2014 12:09 PM   in response to: Quentin Correll in response to: Quentin Correll
Quentin Correll wrote:
Dalija,

| By the time I managed to save enough money to puchase disk drive, my
| teacher told me to get rid of C128 and go for PC XT.

Good recommendation by your teacher! ;-)

Yep.

--
Dalija Prasnikar
Dan Ridenhour

Posts: 46
Registered: 8/21/08
Re: Anyone else in this screwed situation.
Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this thread Reply
  Posted: Sep 16, 2014 12:52 PM   in response to: Dalija Prasnikar in response to: Dalija Prasnikar
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:
Dan Ridenhour wrote:
Quentin Correll wrote:
Dan,

| So I dropped maintenance expecting to pay $500-600 for an upgrade
| whenever they got something out I wanted.

"Expecting" was an "assumption." I'm sure that you know the old saying
about "assume." ;-)

It was an educated assumption though... There had not been a radical increase in pricing like that ever... prices were consistent year to year with minor increases from time to time. I expected minor increases as historically they had happened. I did not expect or given the information I had have any reason to expect the price increasing so radically in such a short time frame. The $499, $899, $1079 pricing in the span of a few months was like dangling something in your face and pulling it out of reach repeatedly. It was annoying, and to me at least the message it sent was 'we dont care about our loyal customers anymore, we want to make money off the new mobile customers'. I even remember a number of threads in this forum to that effect at the time... and it did start my development down non-delphi paths and picking other tools for new projects. Its actually worked out well financially as I've been able to hit new platforms much quicker.... but I miss delphi, its home in a way so hopefully someday an $400-600 upgrade will come along. probably when they run out of new customers and have to start catering to their old ones again.


Like you, I've been with Borland/CodeGear/Embarcadero for a LONG time
(TP 1.0 CP/M). Luckily I have chosen to maintain SA since it was first
offered.

Thats Cool! I've never found anyone else thats used TP on CP/M. I learned on it, wrote my first 1k Virtual Machine with a simple assembly language on it. Had the wierdest computer setup... a Commodore 128 with an 8080 cpu daughter card to boot CP/M.

I have learned TP on CP/M in school. I also had C128 but only with tape
recorder because I didn't have enough money to buy disk drive at first.

By the time I managed to save enough money to puchase disk drive, my
teacher told me to get rid of C128 and go for PC XT.

Sounds like we are from about the same timeframe. I cut lawns for the 128+8080 card and used it for about a year... by then some friends and I had started a nice little business upgrading computers... carried around tubes of NECV20 (later V30) chips and offered $50 upgrades to anyones PC. Instantly go from 4.77 to 10mhz was huge. I bought my first PC clone with that money and bought TP3 which was my friend for quite some time. Whats funny is TP had the same odd numbered editions being better as delphi. 3, 5, 7. 5.5 was also a huge release adding OOP. they couldn't make it 6 because then it wouldn't have been a good release I guess. lol.


--
Dalija Prasnikar
Marius Ellen

Posts: 64
Registered: 11/22/99
Re: Anyone else in this screwed situation.
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  Posted: Sep 18, 2014 12:34 AM   in response to: Dan Ridenhour in response to: Dan Ridenhour
Dan Ridenhour wrote:

I've never found anyone else thats used TP on CP/M. I learned on
it, wrote my first 1k Virtual Machine with a simple assembly
language on it. Had the wierdest computer setup... a Commodore 128
with an 8080 cpu daughter card to boot CP/M.

I learned it the same way and loved my C128 ;)
Arthur Hoornweg

Posts: 414
Registered: 6/2/98
Re: Anyone else in this screwed situation.
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  Posted: Sep 15, 2014 12:39 AM   in response to: John Frazier in response to: John Frazier
John Frazier wrote:

Dan, I feel for ya but you mixed terms here between maintenance and upgrades. Staying on maintenance is really the way to go and that comes from me as a consumer, not as an employee. It just makes more sense to me.

I don't know about you, but installing a new Delphi version and verifying that all the applications I maintain still work (+ updating whatever 3rd party libs they use) is a process that takes weeks, possibly months. There's no way I can afford to do that every 6 months. Lots of 3rd party libs and tools introduce breaking changes in new releases, too. The whole tool chain is involved.

Dan Barclay

Posts: 889
Registered: 11/9/03
Re: Anyone else in this screwed situation.
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  Posted: Sep 15, 2014 10:05 AM   in response to: Arthur Hoornweg in response to: Arthur Hoornweg
Arthur Hoornweg wrote:
John Frazier wrote:

Dan, I feel for ya but you mixed terms here between maintenance and upgrades. Staying on maintenance is really the way to go and that comes from me as a consumer, not as an employee. It just makes more sense to me.

I don't know about you, but installing a new Delphi version and verifying that all the applications I maintain still work (+ updating whatever 3rd party libs they use) is a process that takes weeks, possibly months. There's no way I can afford to do that every 6 months. Lots of 3rd party libs and tools introduce breaking changes in new releases, too. The whole tool chain is involved.


Well said. When you have a lot of code it doesn't take many "minor" <cough> issues to create months of angst. It's not the problems you find, it's concern of problems that got by you!

FWIW, frequency of release is not the primary concern to me... it's the prevalence of "improvements" <cough> that cause code to behave differently. I don't want to start another flamefest regarding binary data in 8 bit strings, but that is a big deal to a lot of us "idiots who don't know wtf we are doing". That capability is needed in Delphi (and other languages) and could easily be added or retained. Wrapping byte arrays, overload functions, language concatenation... heck even I could do that. If Delphi had overloaded operators I'd do it myself, though it might take nearly a month.

Dan

Edited by: Dan Barclay on Sep 15, 2014 12:05 PM
Markus Humm

Posts: 5,113
Registered: 11/9/03
Re: Anyone else in this screwed situation. [Edit]
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  Posted: Sep 15, 2014 1:45 PM   in response to: Dan Barclay in response to: Dan Barclay
Am 15.09.2014 19:06, schrieb Dan Barclay:
Arthur Hoornweg wrote:
John Frazier wrote:

Dan, I feel for ya but you mixed terms here between maintenance and upgrades. Staying on maintenance is really the way to go and that comes from me as a consumer, not as an employee. It just makes more sense to me.

I don't know about you, but installing a new Delphi version and verifying that all the applications I maintain still work (+ updating whatever 3rd party libs they use) is a process that takes weeks, possibly months. There's no way I can afford to do that every 6 months. Lots of 3rd party libs and tools introduce breaking changes in new releases, too. The whole tool chain is involved.


Well said. When you have a lot of code it doesn't take many "minor" <cough> issues to create months of angst. It's not the problems you find, it's concern of problems that got by you!

FWIW, frequency of release is not the primary concern to me... it's the prevalence of "improvements" <cough> that cause code to behave differently. I don't want to start another flamefest regarding binary data in 8 bit strings, but that is a big deal to a lot of us "idiots who don't know wtf we are doing". That capability is needed in Delphi (and other languages) and could easily be added or retained. Wrapping byte arrays, overload functions, language concatenation... heck even I could do that. If De
lphi had overloaded operators I'd do it myself, though it might take nearly a month.

Dan

Hello,

I didn't intensively test this yet (I only tested concatenation), but
XE7 now offers dynamic arrays with concatenation and deletion support.

Greetings

Markus
Quentin Correll


Posts: 2,412
Registered: 12/1/99
Re: Anyone else in this screwed situation. [Edit]
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  Posted: Sep 15, 2014 3:51 PM   in response to: Markus Humm in response to: Markus Humm
Markus,

| I didn't intensively test this yet (I only tested concatenation), but
| XE7 now offers dynamic arrays with concatenation and deletion support.

Interesting!

I understand concatenation but what does "deletion support" mean?

--

Q

1.19.1.372 (Q's Broken Toolbar.)

Bruce McGee

Posts: 1,716
Registered: 9/30/99
Re: Anyone else in this screwed situation. [Edit]
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  Posted: Sep 15, 2014 4:41 PM   in response to: Quentin Correll in response to: Quentin Correll
Quentin Correll wrote:

Markus,

I didn't intensively test this yet (I only tested concatenation),
but XE7 now offers dynamic arrays with concatenation and deletion
support.

Interesting!

I understand concatenation but what does "deletion support" mean?

See the third example.

http://docwiki.embarcadero.com/RADStudio/XE7/en/What%27s_New_in_Delphi_and_C%2B%2BBuilder_XE7#String-Like_Operations_Supported_on_Dynamic_Arrays

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Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
Quentin Correll


Posts: 2,412
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Re: Anyone else in this screwed situation. [Edit]
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  Posted: Sep 15, 2014 7:50 PM   in response to: Bruce McGee in response to: Bruce McGee
John Treder

Posts: 349
Registered: 8/2/02
Re: Anyone else in this screwed situation. [Edit]
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  Posted: Sep 15, 2014 8:17 PM   in response to: Bruce McGee in response to: Bruce McGee
Bruce McGee wrote:

Quentin Correll wrote:

Markus,

I didn't intensively test this yet (I only tested concatenation),
but XE7 now offers dynamic arrays with concatenation and deletion
support.

Interesting!

I understand concatenation but what does "deletion support" mean?

See the third example.

http://docwiki.embarcadero.com/RADStudio/XE7/en/What%27s_New_in_Delphi_and_C%2B%2BBuilder_XE7#String-Like_Operations_Supported_on_Dynamic_Arrays

That's reason enough for me to jump.

--
Tredmill
David Erbas-White

Posts: 202
Registered: 10/11/99
Re: Anyone else in this screwed situation. [Edit]
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  Posted: Sep 15, 2014 9:30 PM   in response to: John Treder in response to: John Treder
On 9/15/2014 8:17 PM, John Treder wrote:

That's reason enough for me to jump.

No, John, please don't jump. You're to young to die. C'mon we can talk
this out... <G>

David Erbas-White
Bruce McGee

Posts: 1,716
Registered: 9/30/99
Re: Anyone else in this screwed situation. [Edit]
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  Posted: Sep 16, 2014 6:05 AM   in response to: John Treder in response to: John Treder
John Treder wrote:

Bruce McGee wrote:

http://docwiki.embarcadero.com/RADStudio/XE7/en/What%27s_New_in_Delphi_and_C%2B%2BBuilder_XE7#String-Like_Operations_Supported_on_Dynamic_Arrays

That's reason enough for me to jump.

If you like, you might get a kick out of these, too.

TArray<T> has been around since Delphi 2009, but I'm not sure how many
people take advantage of it.

http://docwiki.embarcadero.com/Libraries/XE7/en/System.Generics.Collections.TArray.Sort

http://docwiki.embarcadero.com/Libraries/XE7/en/System.Generics.Collections.TArray.BinarySearch

--
Regards,
Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software

Bruce McGee

Posts: 1,716
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Re: Anyone else in this screwed situation. [Edit]
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  Posted: Sep 16, 2014 6:58 AM   in response to: Bruce McGee in response to: Bruce McGee
Bruce McGee wrote:

TArray<T> has been around since Delphi 2009, but I'm not sure how many
people take advantage of it.

While we're on the topic...

Generic arrays made populating dynamic arrays easier before XE7 (added
in D2009), and there was an array pseudo-constructor before that (added
in D2005).

http://stackoverflow.com/a/4071196/19183

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Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
Asbjørn Heid

Posts: 267
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Re: Anyone else in this screwed situation. [Edit]
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  Posted: Sep 16, 2014 7:47 AM   in response to: Bruce McGee in response to: Bruce McGee

Keep in mind that this performs a basic QuickSort with a single fixed pivot, and is thus suceptible to run in O(n^2) on certain inputs.

I really wish the guys working on the RTL paid a bit more attention to worst-case behavior.

- Asbjørn
Bruce McGee

Posts: 1,716
Registered: 9/30/99
Re: Anyone else in this screwed situation. [Edit]
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  Posted: Sep 16, 2014 7:50 AM   in response to: Asbjørn Heid in response to: Asbjørn Heid
Asbjørn Heid wrote:

Bruce McGee wrote:
http://docwiki.embarcadero.com/Libraries/XE7/en/System.Generics.Collections.TArray.Sort

Keep in mind that this performs a basic QuickSort with a single fixed
pivot, and is thus suceptible to run in O(n^2) on certain inputs.

This is outside of my expertise. What would the solution be?

I really wish the guys working on the RTL paid a bit more attention
to worst-case behavior.

If you file a bug or know of one that exists, I'd vote for it.

--
Regards,
Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
Asbjørn Heid

Posts: 267
Registered: 11/12/12
Re: Anyone else in this screwed situation. [Edit]
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  Posted: Sep 16, 2014 8:33 AM   in response to: Bruce McGee in response to: Bruce McGee
Bruce McGee wrote:
Asbjørn Heid wrote:
Keep in mind that this performs a basic QuickSort with a single fixed
pivot, and is thus suceptible to run in O(n^2) on certain inputs.

This is outside of my expertise. What would the solution be?

Sticking with QuickSort (which can do in-place sorting which is attractive), then at the very least they should pick the median several items (such as the first, middle and last element, or more for larger inputs). This avoids the most obvious cases. Once you reach about 16 or so elements they should switch to an insertion sort anyway.

This isn't just theoretical, if you have a public-facing server, carefully constructed input can trigger this quadratic behavior thus leading to a DOS attack. Good details to be found in this article: http://calmerthanyouare.org/2014/06/11/algorithmic-complexity-attacks-and-libc-qsort.html

I really wish the guys working on the RTL paid a bit more attention
to worst-case behavior.

If you file a bug or know of one that exists, I'd vote for it.

I'll try to get around to that :)

- Asbjørn
Graham Stratford

Posts: 20
Registered: 10/23/99
Re: Anyone else in this screwed situation. [Edit]
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  Posted: Sep 16, 2014 10:53 AM   in response to: Asbjørn Heid in response to: Asbjørn Heid
Asbjørn Heid wrote:
Sticking with QuickSort (which can do in-place sorting which is attractive), then at the very least they should pick the median several items (such as the first, middle and last element, or more for larger inputs). This avoids the most obvious cases. Once you reach about 16 or so elements they should switch to an insertion sort anyway.
- Asbjørn

You mean that they should switch to a mergesort, not an insertion sort, right? Mergesort is O(n log n), whereas insertion sort is O(n^2).

I remember having to determine the optimum crossover point as homework in one of my algorithm courses.
Asbjørn Heid

Posts: 267
Registered: 11/12/12
Re: Anyone else in this screwed situation. [Edit]
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  Posted: Sep 16, 2014 2:19 PM   in response to: Graham Stratford in response to: Graham Stratford
Graham Stratford wrote:
You mean that they should switch to a mergesort, not an insertion sort, right? Mergesort is O(n log n), whereas insertion sort is O(n^2).

I remember having to determine the optimum crossover point as homework in one of my algorithm courses.

No. Insertion sort is O(n^2), but the constants are so low that it makes sense for very small arrays. Cross-over varies, but around 8 to 16 elements seems to be a good spot for most element types I've tried at least.

IMO they should add merge sort as well, as a separate StableSort<T>, and use this by default unless for very large arrays where the O(n) working memory becomes an issue. Switching to insertion should be done regardless.

- Asbjørn
Rudy Velthuis (...


Posts: 7,731
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: Anyone else in this screwed situation. [Edit]
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  Posted: Sep 18, 2014 8:54 AM   in response to: Asbjørn Heid in response to: Asbjørn Heid
Asbjørn Heid wrote:

Graham Stratford wrote:
You mean that they should switch to a mergesort, not an insertion
sort, right? Mergesort is O(n log n), whereas insertion sort is
O(n^2).

I remember having to determine the optimum crossover point as
homework in one of my algorithm courses.

No. Insertion sort is O(n^2), but the constants are so low that it
makes sense for very small arrays. Cross-over varies, but around 8 to
16 elements seems to be a good spot for most element types I've tried
at least.

Agreed.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"A model is done when nothing else can be taken out." -- Dyson

John Treder

Posts: 349
Registered: 8/2/02
Re: Anyone else in this screwed situation. [Edit]
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  Posted: Sep 16, 2014 1:16 PM   in response to: Bruce McGee in response to: Bruce McGee
Bruce McGee wrote:

Asbjørn Heid wrote:

Bruce McGee wrote:
http://docwiki.embarcadero.com/Libraries/XE7/en/System.Generics.Collections.TArray.Sort

Keep in mind that this performs a basic QuickSort with a single fixed
pivot, and is thus suceptible to run in O(n^2) on certain inputs.

This is outside of my expertise. What would the solution be?

I really wish the guys working on the RTL paid a bit more attention
to worst-case behavior.

If you file a bug or know of one that exists, I'd vote for it.

The problem arises when an array is already (almost) sorted. It isn't a bug that they don't implement an alternative, but it doesn't show a whole lot of regard for a good solution rather than one that just works.
The tricky part is to discern when to go to another sort. (Insertion sort is faster in those situations.)

--
Tredmill
Asbjørn Heid

Posts: 267
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Re: Anyone else in this screwed situation. [Edit]
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  Posted: Sep 16, 2014 2:30 PM   in response to: John Treder in response to: John Treder
John Treder wrote:
The problem arises when an array is already (almost) sorted. It isn't a bug that they don't implement an alternative, but it doesn't show a whole lot of regard for a good solution rather than one that just works.

You're thinking of the traditional QuickSort pivot choice which was the first element in the partition (sub-array). The Delphi implementation picks the middle item, which is somewhat better, however it has issues if the input consists of two equal-sized parts which are sorted (think appending the first 50 odd numbers to the list of the first 50 even numbers).

By sampling many elements in order to estimate the true median, it's harder to find inputs for which the QuickSort breaks down to quadratic runtime, but it's possible (and thus can also occur by chance).

It would be best if the default algorithm was one with good worst-case performance as well.

Btw TDictionary<K, V> in Generics.Collections suffers of the same issue: they use linear probing which can deteriorate to quadratic performance unless you have a very good hash function. This is not documented and thus the user can unwittingly implement a poor hash function for custom types or similar. Given that many users are not familiar with implementing hash functions, this is not unlikely in my view...

FWIW I'm working on getting an improved dictionary included in Spring4D. It has somewhat lower performance in the average case, but should be significantly less prone to "breakdowns".

- Asbjørn
John Treder

Posts: 349
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Re: Anyone else in this screwed situation. [Edit]
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  Posted: Sep 16, 2014 1:13 PM   in response to: Bruce McGee in response to: Bruce McGee
Bruce McGee wrote:


I've used the sort, but no need at present for the binary search.

--
Tredmill
Dan Barclay

Posts: 889
Registered: 11/9/03
Re: Anyone else in this screwed situation. [Edit]
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  Posted: Sep 15, 2014 9:04 PM   in response to: Bruce McGee in response to: Bruce McGee
Bruce McGee wrote:
Quentin Correll wrote:

Markus,

I didn't intensively test this yet (I only tested concatenation),
but XE7 now offers dynamic arrays with concatenation and deletion
support.

Interesting!

I understand concatenation but what does "deletion support" mean?

See the third example.

http://docwiki.embarcadero.com/RADStudio/XE7/en/What%27s_New_in_Delphi_and_C%2B%2BBuilder_XE7#String-Like_Operations_Supported_on_Dynamic_Arrays

Thanks Bruce. It's certainly a move in the right direction, and most of the wrapper work should be easy to do given the concatenation and deletion functions. Unfortunately I think it's still pretty far short of what we're doing, unless I've misunderstood. I confess up front that in current versions (without the operators) I haven't explored this very far since I knew it wasn't going to work for me as it stood.

It may seem trivial, but it appears they still consider the "TBytes" type as a simple declaration of "array of bytes" rather than a datatype. If so, that seems to preclude using syntax now available for code using ansistring. Ex: SomeTBytes: TBytes; MyTBytes: TBytes; MyStuff: array of TBytes; ... somecode ... MyStuff[20]:=SomeTBytes; MyTBytes:=MyStuff[20];

If this syntax is not available it means touching a LOT of lines of code. Adding to that an apparent change in the base, I'm not sure I'm ready to jump on it (though I've changed bases before).

Have I misunderstood, particularly regarding treatment of TBytes? That is, is TBytes just a redeclaration of an array, or is it treated as an underlying datatype?

Again, going on just a little information, it almost appears as if they "solved the wrong problem" if they focused on operators for all dynamic arrays. I'll be looking and listening for solutions, hopefully they will be listening.

Dan
Dan Barclay

Posts: 889
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Re: Anyone else in this screwed situation. [Edit]
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  Posted: Sep 15, 2014 4:04 PM   in response to: Markus Humm in response to: Markus Humm
Markus Humm wrote:

I didn't intensively test this yet (I only tested concatenation), but
XE7 now offers dynamic arrays with concatenation and deletion support.

I hadn't heard that. Everything I've seen in advertising is, of course, about mobile.stuff. We sling a ton of binary data around and the old ansistring was beautiful for that. Fact is, there was no other way to do what we do very easily.

How about arrays of those? Or, do I have to treat them as just another dimension on an array in my own code? (e.g. "array of ThisNewThing)" is "array of ansistring" equivalent).

Is there some (public) documentation with limitations and examples?

FWIW, I really love developing in Delphi but they have nearly lost me over this kind of change. It almost makes it worthwhile to use c++ and create my own types. Almost, he said. Tools vendors need to understand that not everybody develops the same application (seems obvious, huh?), nor do they use the tool in the same way. Vendors start trying to "fix" things after behavior is established and they invariably apply fixes that meet their own idea of what people should be doing, not what they are actually doing. You can't trust that kind of tool, because it continually breaks your working/tested code.

Thanks,
Dan

Edited by: Dan Barclay on Sep 15, 2014 6:04 PM

Edited by: Dan Barclay on Sep 15, 2014 6:05 PM

Quentin Correll


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Re: Anyone else in this screwed situation.
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  Posted: Sep 15, 2014 1:09 PM   in response to: Arthur Hoornweg in response to: Arthur Hoornweg
Arthur,

| I don't know about you, but installing a new Delphi version and
| verifying that all the applications I maintain still work (+ updating
| whatever 3rd party libs they use) is a process that takes weeks,
| possibly months. There's no way I can afford to do that every 6
| months.

One does NOT have to install and populate every version!!!

I have maintained my SA and to this point have only "used" D5, D7,
D2007, XE2 and XE5 as my "main" development environment. But I have
had EVERY version IF I see that it makes sense FOR ME to invest in all
of my 3rd-party components for a "new" updated development environment.

--

Q

1.19.1.372 (Q's Broken Toolbar.)

Dan Ridenhour

Posts: 46
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Re: Anyone else in this screwed situation.
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  Posted: Sep 16, 2014 12:58 PM   in response to: Arthur Hoornweg in response to: Arthur Hoornweg
Arthur Hoornweg wrote:
John Frazier wrote:

I don't know about you, but installing a new Delphi version and verifying that all the applications I maintain still work (+ updating whatever 3rd party libs they use) is a process that takes weeks, possibly months. There's no way I can afford to do that every 6 months. Lots of 3rd party libs and tools introduce breaking changes in new releases, too. The whole tool chain is involved.

I ran into those delays a few times... waiting on vendor lag to get their components working or having to dig into it and fix it yourself. Smaller vendors that either die or don't upgrade their tools are a bigger problem. As time wore on I started using 3rd party components less and less unless they were home grown or from someone like TMS that is quick about getting updates out. I love the component model of delphi but it does prove a double edge sword at times when upgrading.
> Rich <

Posts: 171
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Re: Anyone else in this screwed situation.
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  Posted: Sep 12, 2014 8:19 PM   in response to: Dan Ridenhour in response to: Dan Ridenhour
Dan Ridenhour wrote:

A sad end.

The software development industry has changed much over the years. A person used to be able to make enough money to laugh at the cost of dev tools. I can remember times when I'd spend the same amount of money at a bar in one night that a Delphi upgrade cost. The truly sad part is that you don't get to choose which tool you want to use. I remember when being in software development was fun and exciting.

Today things are idiotic in this industry. Companies complain they can't find good developers. But when people try to help them they are met with resistance. I don't know why this industry has changed so much.
Dan Ridenhour

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Re: Anyone else in this screwed situation.
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  Posted: Sep 12, 2014 8:44 PM   in response to: > Rich < in response to: > Rich <
> Rich < wrote:
Dan Ridenhour wrote:

A sad end.

The software development industry has changed much over the years. A person used to be able to make enough money to laugh at the cost of dev tools. I can remember times when I'd spend the same amount of money at a bar in one night that a Delphi upgrade cost. The truly sad part is that you don't get to choose which tool you want to use. I remember when being in software development was fun and exciting.

Today things are idiotic in this industry. Companies complain they can't find good developers. But when people try to help them they are met with resistance. I don't know why this industry has changed so much.

Yep things have changed alot, and continue to change. One of the big gripes I had about the 'lost decade' of delphi upgrades that never quite gave me what I needed was how fast things were moving and that it usually took delphi a couple years to catch up. Each new platform is an opportunity for an independent developer... For a long time I was frustrated with Delphi about that but since ive been tool agnostic so to speak I've found that its better to chase the platform than the tool... By the time Delphi support iOS or Android there were 1000s of apps available. They still don't support windows store apps... and coincidentally just as they supported Arm based android apps, a slew of intel based android machines hit the market.

As an independent developer I could justify $500-600 a year for tool upgrades but it would be nice to get something I needed each time and for far to long I wasn't. Each year there was a bunch of shuffling... this 3rd party tool got added, this one got pulled, the help was better but still not as good as it was in D7... the year they got rid of printed doc so actually made the online doc good. After a decade of that its what $5000 and I was still using the version from 10 years ago while the others sat unused. Then they finally come out with something new and usable, not the bailing wire FPC compiler fix or firemonkey 1.0 stuff... and double then triple their price. Well I don't think i got my 5k worth let along willing to spend another 1500 for one release or alot more to go back on the SA. Now that was a rant. lol.
Bruce McGee

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Re: Anyone else in this screwed situation.
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  Posted: Sep 13, 2014 11:59 AM   in response to: > Rich < in response to: > Rich <
Rich wrote:

Dan Ridenhour wrote:

A sad end.

A person used to be able to make enough money to laugh at the cost of
dev tools.

SA for Rad Studio Enterprise is $936 per year. For the sake of
argument, let's double that to allow for third party tools and
components.

As en employer, that's a very small fraction of what a good developer
costs. If you're independent, it's the equivalent of under a week of
billable time, even at moderate rates.

If this is the difference between a business (or consultant) making it
or not, then the choice of development tools is the least of their
problems.

--
Regards,
Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
Mike Margerum

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Re: Anyone else in this screwed situation.
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  Posted: Sep 13, 2014 2:04 PM   in response to: Bruce McGee in response to: Bruce McGee
If this is the difference between a business (or consultant) making it
or not, then the choice of development tools is the least of their
problems.
Up until XE6 i didn't think SA was worth it. I can see now EMB is
serious about putting a lot of r&d into Delphi so I upgraded to
enterprise and SA.
John Frazier


Posts: 726
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Re: Anyone else in this screwed situation.
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  Posted: Sep 13, 2014 4:47 PM   in response to: Mike Margerum in response to: Mike Margerum
Mike Margerum wrote:
If this is the difference between a business (or consultant) making it
or not, then the choice of development tools is the least of their
problems.
Up until XE6 i didn't think SA was worth it. I can see now EMB is
serious about putting a lot of r&d into Delphi so I upgraded to
enterprise and SA.

Yeah and we used to release one major release a year so there was potential for stagnation in a given market. Now we are updating at breakneck speeds with 2 major releases a year (technically 4 if you count Appmethod) and there is mucho value in M&S.
--
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Quentin Correll


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Re: Anyone else in this screwed situation.
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  Posted: Sep 14, 2014 11:21 AM   in response to: John Frazier in response to: John Frazier
John,

[Thread Hi-Jack]

Nice to see you hanging around!

The NNTP Forums seems to be working well lately. Kudos!!!

--

Q

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John Frazier


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Re: Anyone else in this screwed situation.
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  Posted: Sep 16, 2014 12:32 AM   in response to: Quentin Correll in response to: Quentin Correll
Quentin Correll wrote:
John,

[Thread Hi-Jack]

Nice to see you hanging around!

The NNTP Forums seems to be working well lately. Kudos!!!

Thanks. Like I mentioned things may be bumpy for a bit and I am having to pedal the hamster wheel due to some unforeseen issues on the server. Without boring you guys with details I can tell you I am executing a plan that should get very long life and better stability of this server. If all goes well there should hopefully not be any more messageID resets with NNTP though I make no guarantees. Once I have actual progress I will be sure to let y'all know.

/threadjack, sorry Dan :)
--
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Markus Humm

Posts: 5,113
Registered: 11/9/03
Re: Anyone else in this screwed situation.
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  Posted: Sep 16, 2014 2:09 PM   in response to: John Frazier in response to: John Frazier
Am 16.09.2014 09:32, schrieb John Frazier:
Quentin Correll wrote:
John,

[Thread Hi-Jack]

Nice to see you hanging around!

The NNTP Forums seems to be working well lately. Kudos!!!

Thanks. Like I mentioned things may be bumpy for a bit and I am having to pedal the hamster wheel due to some unforeseen issues on the server. Without boring you guys with details I can tell you I am executing a plan that should get very long life and better stability of this server. If all goes well there should hopefully not be any more messageID resets with NNTP though I make no guarantees. Once I have actual progress I will be sure to let y'all know.

/threadjack, sorry Dan :)
--
John Frazier (Embarcadero Newsgroup Admin)

Hello,

no need to be sorry if the news you're posting is about something which
hight have a positive outcome.

Greetings

Markus
Arthur Hoornweg

Posts: 414
Registered: 6/2/98
Re: Anyone else in this screwed situation.
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  Posted: Sep 15, 2014 12:42 AM   in response to: John Frazier in response to: John Frazier
John Frazier wrote:

Yeah and we used to release one major release a year so there was potential for stagnation in a given market. Now we are updating at breakneck speeds with 2 major releases a year (technically 4 if you count Appmethod) and there is mucho value in M&S.

I would feel much more at ease if mobile and desktop were fully separate products. I would install them on separate VM's. On my "desktop" machine stability is of the utmost importance.

John Frazier


Posts: 726
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Re: Anyone else in this screwed situation.
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  Posted: Sep 16, 2014 12:26 AM   in response to: Arthur Hoornweg in response to: Arthur Hoornweg
Arthur Hoornweg wrote:
John Frazier wrote:

Yeah and we used to release one major release a year so there was potential for stagnation in a given market. Now we are updating at breakneck speeds with 2 major releases a year (technically 4 if you count Appmethod) and there is mucho value in M&S.

I would feel much more at ease if mobile and desktop were fully separate products. I would install them on separate VM's. On my "desktop" machine stability is of the utmost importance.


Appmethod is truly SKUd and sold by platform. However, if you want all plats ultimately, Delphi Ent or RAD Studio are likely better value. Then it only comes down to your personal discipline of where you install, how you use, what you develop where. You know you as the licensed user are completely allowed to do that, right?
--
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Bruce McGee

Posts: 1,716
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Re: Anyone else in this screwed situation.
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  Posted: Sep 13, 2014 5:39 PM   in response to: Mike Margerum in response to: Mike Margerum
Mike Margerum wrote:

If this is the difference between a business (or consultant) making
it or not, then the choice of development tools is the least of
their problems.
Up until XE6 i didn't think SA was worth it. I can see now EMB is
serious about putting a lot of r&d into Delphi so I upgraded to
enterprise and SA.

I thought is was very worth while before XE3 and essential afterwards.

imho, of course.

--
Regards,
Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
Dan Ridenhour

Posts: 46
Registered: 8/21/08
Re: Anyone else in this screwed situation.
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  Posted: Sep 16, 2014 1:01 PM   in response to: Bruce McGee in response to: Bruce McGee
Bruce McGee wrote:
Mike Margerum wrote:

If this is the difference between a business (or consultant) making
it or not, then the choice of development tools is the least of
their problems.
Up until XE6 i didn't think SA was worth it. I can see now EMB is
serious about putting a lot of r&d into Delphi so I upgraded to
enterprise and SA.

I thought is was very worth while before XE3 and essential afterwards.

I felt like it was the ever dangling carrot by XE3 (ie, always what you needed dangled out for the next release, only to be be too buggy to use and/or pulled for re-implementation)... I do agree that after XE3 it became essential to continued use of the tool. Hindsight 20/20.


imho, of course.

--
Regards,
Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
Dan Ridenhour

Posts: 46
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Re: Anyone else in this screwed situation.
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  Posted: Sep 19, 2014 9:11 AM   in response to: Mike Margerum in response to: Mike Margerum
Mike Margerum wrote:
If this is the difference between a business (or consultant) making it
or not, then the choice of development tools is the least of their
problems.
Up until XE6 i didn't think SA was worth it. I can see now EMB is
serious about putting a lot of r&d into Delphi so I upgraded to
enterprise and SA.

That was the thing with me and why I dropped the SA when I did... for quite some time every release seemed to follow the pattern of... whatever was talked about for this release got moved to next release and/or some 3rd party bundled tool that I used got dropped and/or a few 3rd party tools I saw no use for would be added. When we hit XE3 and I hadn't seen a compelling reason to upgrade past D2007... combined with the frustration of what always seemed like the ever moving carrot dangled for the 'future' but never quite materializing. I got fed up, pure and simple. In hindsight (like most things) i picked just the wrong moment to jump ship.
> Rich <

Posts: 171
Registered: 2/6/09
Re: Anyone else in this screwed situation.
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  Posted: Sep 13, 2014 5:09 PM   in response to: Bruce McGee in response to: Bruce McGee
Bruce McGee wrote:

If this is the difference between a business (or consultant) making it
or not, then the choice of development tools is the least of their
problems.

Right. But when rates were at $150/hr it wasn't even a thought. Today some places are paying $50/hr or less. That makes tool cost a concern for some. One guy told me he had people offering to work at $20/hr. If that's true then they wouldn't laugh at a couple grand a year in tool costs.

I like quality stuff. I want a belt made out of leather and hand stitched. Not made out of paper and glued together on a machine. I also want good tools that automate mundane tasks. Those tools cost more.
Bruce McGee

Posts: 1,716
Registered: 9/30/99
Re: Anyone else in this screwed situation. [Edit]
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  Posted: Sep 13, 2014 5:36 PM   in response to: > Rich < in response to: > Rich <
Rich wrote:

Bruce McGee wrote:

If this is the difference between a business (or consultant) making
it or not, then the choice of development tools is the least of
their problems.

Right. But when rates were at $150/hr it wasn't even a thought. Today
some places are paying $50/hr or less. That makes tool cost a concern
for some.

Well, if someone is pinching pennies, there are free tools available. I
use some of them.

That doesn't mean that free tools are always cheaper in the long run.

One guy told me he had people offering to work at $20/hr.
If that's true then they wouldn't laugh at a couple grand a year in
tool costs.

That's a ridiculous rate, at least in Canada.

I like quality stuff. I want a belt made out of leather and hand
stitched. Not made out of paper and glued together on a machine. I
also want good tools that automate mundane tasks. Those tools cost
more.

Exactly my point.

--
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Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
Dan Ridenhour

Posts: 46
Registered: 8/21/08
Re: Anyone else in this screwed situation.
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  Posted: Sep 17, 2014 3:26 PM   in response to: Bruce McGee in response to: Bruce McGee
Bruce McGee wrote:
Rich wrote:

Dan Ridenhour wrote:

A sad end.

A person used to be able to make enough money to laugh at the cost of
dev tools.

SA for Rad Studio Enterprise is $936 per year. For the sake of
argument, let's double that to allow for third party tools and
components.

As en employer, that's a very small fraction of what a good developer
costs. If you're independent, it's the equivalent of under a week of
billable time, even at moderate rates.

I work for a small subsidiary in a much larger corp, bought up and transferred hands a number of time. Your statement makes sense but the general attitude in my corporation is... buy development tools? thats what we hire programmers for... use free stuff its out there.

And there is some validity to that thinking... the fastest way to get going on any new platform is with their SDK which is almost always free. Support only gets added to delphi much later, and doing that at all is a fairly recent development.

I do have a pro level SA maintained through my employer but I'm the exception... across all units I can't think of another single developer that is using paid development tools.


If this is the difference between a business (or consultant) making it
or not, then the choice of development tools is the least of their
problems.

--
Regards,
Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
Bruce McGee

Posts: 1,716
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Re: Anyone else in this screwed situation.
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  Posted: Sep 17, 2014 3:42 PM   in response to: Dan Ridenhour in response to: Dan Ridenhour
Dan Ridenhour wrote:

I work for a small subsidiary in a much larger corp, bought up and
transferred hands a number of time. Your statement makes sense but
the general attitude in my corporation is... buy development tools?
thats what we hire programmers for... use free stuff its out there.

Penny wise but pound foolish?

As long as they don't apply the same logic to how they pay their people.

--
Regards,
Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
Dan Ridenhour

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Re: Anyone else in this screwed situation.
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  Posted: Sep 17, 2014 6:48 PM   in response to: Bruce McGee in response to: Bruce McGee
Bruce McGee wrote:
Dan Ridenhour wrote:

I work for a small subsidiary in a much larger corp, bought up and
transferred hands a number of time. Your statement makes sense but
the general attitude in my corporation is... buy development tools?
thats what we hire programmers for... use free stuff its out there.

Penny wise but pound foolish?

As long as they don't apply the same logic to how they pay their people.

Around 2000-2001 they felt the pince of the economy hard... cut out most licensed software, went to freeBSD servers, booted oracle for MySQL database, open office, etc. we do license indesign and photoshop still though. It kept the unix folks employed replacing things that cost money with free stuff.

As for paying people... the last decade has been a slow pruning... we probably have 25% of the workforce we had in 2000. Although as far as tech I went from having 2 people working for me to just me. As for pay, its been stagnant for a long time... but i take advantage, no set hours, work from home alot, etc. I could definitely find something with more advancement and money but had that before, not a suit and tie fan and while pay has been stagnant for a while my salary tripled right before the dot.com bubble burst as they kept paying me more to fend off job offers. Now if I could find a telecommute that I could do from anywhere I'd go in a heartbeat. my retirement land in florida is calling me. lol.


--
Regards,
Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
Quentin Correll


Posts: 2,412
Registered: 12/1/99
Re: Anyone else in this screwed situation.
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  Posted: Sep 17, 2014 5:34 PM   in response to: Dan Ridenhour in response to: Dan Ridenhour
Dan,

| buy development tools? thats what we hire programmers for... use
| free stuff its out there.

| And there is some validity to that thinking...

Not a bit!!!

--

Q

1.19.1.372 (Q's Broken Toolbar.)

Dan Ridenhour

Posts: 46
Registered: 8/21/08
Re: Anyone else in this screwed situation.
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  Posted: Sep 17, 2014 6:35 PM   in response to: Quentin Correll in response to: Quentin Correll
Quentin Correll wrote:
Dan,

| buy development tools? thats what we hire programmers for... use
| free stuff its out there.

| And there is some validity to that thinking...

Not a bit!!!

I don't really think so either but around 2000-2001 they dropped all their commercial software development tools in all groups across the company... of course they were big in lotus notes so i didn't see that as a bad trade. We are a small group so I quietly kept delphi because honestly it would take years to re-develop everything in something else. Now they use only free tools. It did save the company gobs of cash... they also moved off windows and on to freeBSD, moved off oracle to MySQL, etc. etc. I'm the only group doing windows dev with commercial tools.



--

Q

1.19.1.372 (Q's Broken Toolbar.)
Quentin Correll


Posts: 2,412
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Re: Anyone else in this screwed situation.
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  Posted: Sep 19, 2014 1:36 PM   in response to: Dan Ridenhour in response to: Dan Ridenhour
Dan,

| I'm the only group doing windows dev with commercial tools.

And paying your own way, eh?

--

Q

1.19.1.372 (Q's Broken Toolbar.)
Dan Ridenhour

Posts: 46
Registered: 8/21/08
Re: Anyone else in this screwed situation.
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  Posted: Sep 19, 2014 8:14 PM   in response to: Quentin Correll in response to: Quentin Correll
Quentin Correll wrote:
Dan,

| I'm the only group doing windows dev with commercial tools.

And paying your own way, eh?

Well not really... My department maintains a Rad studio Pro level SA.... but I was also maintaining one for myself for independent projects until the FPC iOS stuff was added then dropped and the whole .NET then prism then gone. So I dropped my SA... as it turned out, at just the wrong time as things got on a better track after that.


--

Q

1.19.1.372 (Q's Broken Toolbar.)
Markus Humm

Posts: 5,113
Registered: 11/9/03
Re: Anyone else in this screwed situation.
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  Posted: Oct 1, 2014 12:24 PM   in response to: Dan Ridenhour in response to: Dan Ridenhour
Am 20.09.2014 05:14, schrieb Dan Ridenhour:
Quentin Correll wrote:
Dan,

| I'm the only group doing windows dev with commercial tools.

And paying your own way, eh?

Well not really... My department maintains a Rad studio Pro level SA.... but I was also maintaining one for myself for independent projects until the FPC iOS stuff was added then dropped and the whole .NET then prism then gone. So I dropped my SA... as it turned out, at just the wrong time as things got on a better track after that.

Hello,

but I'm sure you know that Delphi is licenced per user and not to your
company? It's valid (at least if your employer agrees) to install it at
home on a 2nd PC as well and use it.

Greetings

Markus
Dan Ridenhour

Posts: 46
Registered: 8/21/08
Re: Anyone else in this screwed situation.
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  Posted: Oct 1, 2014 4:55 PM   in response to: Markus Humm in response to: Markus Humm
Markus Humm wrote:
Am 20.09.2014 05:14, schrieb Dan Ridenhour:
Quentin Correll wrote:
Dan,

| I'm the only group doing windows dev with commercial tools.

And paying your own way, eh?

Well not really... My department maintains a Rad studio Pro level SA.... but I was also maintaining one for myself for independent projects until the FPC iOS stuff was added then dropped and the whole .NET then prism then gone. So I dropped my SA... as it turned out, at just the wrong time as things got on a better track after that.

Hello,

but I'm sure you know that Delphi is licenced per user and not to your
company? It's valid (at least if your employer agrees) to install it at
home on a 2nd PC as well and use it.

I'm the only developer in my shop and really the only tech person... they keep the SA because I tell them to and we keep it more to have access to old versions and in case we want a trouble ticket (i think i used 1 ever, lol). So they wouldnt' know or care what used it for... in fact I work from home about 1/2 the time... although I'm using my licensed versions at home. I just always kept a separate license for myself.

In hindsight I know it was bad timing dropping my SA when I did, but the way their pricing offers went after that was like a kick in the teeth that has definitely left me less than thrilled with embarcadero.


Greetings

Markus
Markus Humm

Posts: 5,113
Registered: 11/9/03
Re: Anyone else in this screwed situation.
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  Posted: Oct 2, 2014 10:47 AM   in response to: Dan Ridenhour in response to: Dan Ridenhour
Am 02.10.2014 01:55, schrieb Dan Ridenhour:
Markus Humm wrote:

and in case we want a trouble ticket (i think i used 1 ever, lol).

The first time I wanted to use such a ticket a few weeks ago I found
out, that they just had closed my QC report one day ago! Comment: cannot
fix, as it's Windows behaviour :-(

Stupid Windows! Nobody told it to draw that divider, but it simply does! ;-)

Greetings

Markus
Jeff Overcash (...

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Re: Anyone else in this screwed situation.
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  Posted: Sep 12, 2014 10:51 PM   in response to: Dan Ridenhour in response to: Dan Ridenhour
Dan Ridenhour wrote:

The latest release XE7 hits release with a wopping $1500 rage upgrade price for pro sku rad studio. (enterprise upgrades didn't used to be that much).

You are looking at the Starter to Pro upgrade price. The Pro upgrade price from
non starter SKU's (pro and up of previous versions) is currently $1016 (non sale
price $1120).
https://store.embarcadero.com/542/purl-rbanner

You also have the recharge option of only $536 if coming from XE6.
https://store.embarcadero.com/542/purl-RechargeUpgradeFromRADStudioX6Professional

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Gilbert Padilla

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Re: Anyone else in this screwed situation.
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  Posted: Sep 13, 2014 9:15 AM   in response to: Jeff Overcash (... in response to: Jeff Overcash (...
You also have the recharge option of only $536 if coming from XE6.

The recharge fee should be a yearly fee, doing it 2 times a year won't yell
any savings.
Jeff Overcash (...

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  Posted: Sep 13, 2014 9:39 AM   in response to: Gilbert Padilla in response to: Gilbert Padilla
Gilbert Padilla wrote:
You also have the recharge option of only $536 if coming from XE6.

The recharge fee should be a yearly fee, doing it 2 times a year won't yell
any savings.

No the recharge fee is a little less than skipping every other release and
paying the upgrade cost ($1072 recharge cost to $1120 non sale upgrade cost).
Realistically if you want every version you are being stupid if you are not
staying on maintenance.

Maintenance IS the yearly fee version and cheaper than either of the other two
options.

They basically are offering 3 options.

Upgrade - for those that do not upgrade every version. Highest cost.

Recharge - for those that do tend to skip some releases but have the previous
version and want to upgrade to the current version. A little more than 1/2 the
normal upgrade cost.

Maintenance - Yearly option for those that tend to upgrade to each release.
Cheapest option.

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And so I patrol in the valley of the shadow of the tricolor
I must fear evil. For I am but mortal and mortals can only die.
Asking questions, pleading answers from the nameless
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Gilbert Padilla

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Re: Anyone else in this screwed situation.
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  Posted: Sep 13, 2014 10:08 AM   in response to: Jeff Overcash (... in response to: Jeff Overcash (...
The yearly recharge option is 1072, what is the cost of the yearly
maintenance option?
Bruce McGee

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  Posted: Sep 13, 2014 10:14 AM   in response to: Gilbert Padilla in response to: Gilbert Padilla
Gilbert Padilla wrote:

The yearly recharge option is 1072, what is the cost of the yearly
maintenance option?

SA is roughly the same price as a single recharge.

If you upgrade frequently, SA is the most cost effective option by far.
The drawback is that there is an initial hit because you pay for the
upgrade and the first time along with the first year's SA.

Recharge is intended to be a middle ground between paying the upgrade
price and getting SA without making a commitment.

The stock prices are on shop.embarcadero.com, but there are frequent
special offers as well.

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John Frazier


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  Posted: Sep 13, 2014 10:14 AM   in response to: Gilbert Padilla in response to: Gilbert Padilla
Gilbert Padilla wrote:
The yearly recharge option is 1072, what is the cost of the yearly
maintenance option?

It is based on some percentage of the full product price. I never keep track of what that is and usually have folks call sales cause those folks know this stuff. In North America it is(888)233-2224x1. I do know that it is considerably less than recharge or upgrades by design.
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  Posted: Sep 13, 2014 10:17 AM   in response to: John Frazier in response to: John Frazier
Oh yeah and as Bruce alluded to, You can go to shop site and stick stuff in cart and see how much it is since we add M&S to cart by default.

http://store.embarcadero.com
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Bruce McGee

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  Posted: Sep 13, 2014 10:34 AM   in response to: John Frazier in response to: John Frazier
John Frazier wrote:

It is based on some percentage of the full product price. I never
keep track of what that is and usually have folks call sales cause
those folks know this stuff. In North America it is(888)233-2224x1.
I do know that it is considerably less than recharge or upgrades by
design.

As a rule of thumb, pricing is a percentage of the full purchase price
across all SKUs, give or take.

Upgrade - 60% per upgrade
Recharge - 30% per upgrade - only eligible if upgrading from the most
recent version
SA - 30% per year

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Leif Uneus

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Re: Anyone else in this screwed situation.
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  Posted: Sep 13, 2014 12:09 AM   in response to: Dan Ridenhour in response to: Dan Ridenhour
Dan Ridenhour wrote:
All,

Eventually I settled in with an employer and maintained to Maintenance Agreements, one for my employer and one a personal one for my independent projects.

The license would permit you to use a copy of your employers license at home (if your employer agrees), as long as you are the only user.

A quote from Nick Hodges some years ago:

The license allows you to install the product on a "reasonable number
of machines" as long as you are the only one that uses the different
installations and as long as you don't use them both at the same time.

/Leif
Christopher Burke

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  Posted: Sep 13, 2014 8:42 AM   in response to: Leif Uneus in response to: Leif Uneus
Leif Uneus <> wrote in news:691010 at forums dot embarcadero dot com:

Dan Ridenhour wrote:
All,

Eventually I settled in with an employer and maintained to
Maintenance Agreements, one for my employer and one a personal one
for my independent projects.

The license would permit you to use a copy of your employers license
at home (if your employer agrees), as long as you are the only user.

But then the Employer would would own any software you wrote at home. Or at
least have a damned good right to a say over it.

You use your Employer's resources, be they time, money or tools - the
Employer will have some recall over your product.
John Frazier


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  Posted: Sep 13, 2014 10:33 AM   in response to: Christopher Burke in response to: Christopher Burke
Christopher Burke wrote:
Leif Uneus <> wrote in news:691010 at forums dot embarcadero dot com:

Dan Ridenhour wrote:
All,

Eventually I settled in with an employer and maintained to
Maintenance Agreements, one for my employer and one a personal one
for my independent projects.

The license would permit you to use a copy of your employers license
at home (if your employer agrees), as long as you are the only user.

But then the Employer would would own any software you wrote at home. Or at
least have a damned good right to a say over it.

You use your Employer's resources, be they time, money or tools - the
Employer will have some recall over your product.

I was going to mention all this too but you are not completely correct. It all depends on the employment agreement and what kind of employer you work for. Many employers won't care about using their tools if it is not conflicting with their hours and duties they pay you for. Some employers are strict, some are cool. It comes down to the coder keeping an accurate log of their private dev hours and making darn sure they don't mix the two because when the presumed productivity drops off with the main job, the employers will always point blame to side projects.

Nick's old statement is still correct. The license is licensed to an individual for their use. While it may be owned by the employer and they can transfer it to your replacement when terminated, it is your license to use whilst you remain employed there or your company has you assigned to use that product. What you do with the license at 11 o'clock in the morning versus 11 o'clock at night is up to you and your employer to hash out per your employment agreement. If an employer is smart, they will understand the more time you write code and hone your craft, the better you will be at your day job.

FYI, I have just a few licenses of our products... I can develop and deploy mobile stuff to AppStore, Play store, whatever as long as it is on MY time. Also, my Apple and Play accounts used for private development are paid for with my money :)
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Dan Ridenhour

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  Posted: Sep 17, 2014 6:30 PM   in response to: John Frazier in response to: John Frazier
John Frazier wrote:
Christopher Burke wrote:
Leif Uneus <> wrote in news:691010 at forums dot embarcadero dot com:

Dan Ridenhour wrote:
All,

Eventually I settled in with an employer and maintained to
Maintenance Agreements, one for my employer and one a personal one
for my independent projects.

The license would permit you to use a copy of your employers license
at home (if your employer agrees), as long as you are the only user.

But then the Employer would would own any software you wrote at home. Or at
least have a damned good right to a say over it.

You use your Employer's resources, be they time, money or tools - the
Employer will have some recall over your product.

I was going to mention all this too but you are not completely correct. It all depends on the employment agreement and what kind of employer you work for. Many employers won't care about using their tools if it is not conflicting with their hours and duties they pay you for. Some employers are strict, some are cool. It comes down to the coder keeping an accurate log of their private dev hours and making darn sure they don't mix the two because when the presumed productivity drops off with the main job, the employers will always point blame to side projects.

Nick's old statement is still correct. The license is licensed to an individual for their use. While it may be owned by the employer and they can transfer it to your replacement when terminated, it is your license to use whilst you remain employed there or your company has you assigned to use that product. What you do with the license at 11 o'clock in the morning versus 11 o'clock at night is up to you and your employer to hash out per your employment agreement. If an employer is smart, they will understand the more time you write code and hone your craft, the better you will be at your day job.

FYI, I have just a few licenses of our products... I can develop and deploy mobile stuff to AppStore, Play store, whatever as long as it is on MY time. Also, my Apple and Play accounts used for private development are paid for with my money :)

Interesting. Honestly my company would likely not care, while everything from datacollection to publishing and indesign document generation is is done with apps I've written in delphi they are not a tech company, I'm the only developer in my group, they keep the maintenance current because I say I need it, and i've been there 30 years next month.

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Bruce McGee

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  Posted: Sep 13, 2014 11:28 AM   in response to: Dan Ridenhour in response to: Dan Ridenhour
I'll put this as gently as I can.

If you're in a screwed position, it's because you screwed up, not
because Embarcadero or anyone else screwed you.

On the other hand, if you're looking for ways to continue using Delphi,
then you have options. Just ask.

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Dan Ridenhour

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  Posted: Sep 13, 2014 8:30 PM   in response to: Bruce McGee in response to: Bruce McGee
Bruce McGee wrote:
I'll put this as gently as I can.

If you're in a screwed position, it's because you screwed up, not
because Embarcadero or anyone else screwed you.

Hindsight is 20/20. You are right that I screwed up, I actually screwed up twice.

The first time was in maintaining my maintenance agreements year after year during the Inprise years, especially the years when there wasn't even a release at all. Back then I thought so highly of delphi I evangelized it to other developers and my 'hope' of what it could be overshadowed the reality that it really wasn't going anywhere. I wasted alot of money during that time. I'm sure there are others that got what they needed out of the new releases, I'm sure there were people dying for unicode.

During that time there was always something coming just around the corner that I really wanted... but the next release would come and it had been pushed to the next or they released a hacked together way of doing it that would be going away with the next release so why invest in a codebase with it. (FPC iOS anyone).

After XE3 I decided I needed to stop paying for hope and wait for a product I could use. so I dropped my Maintenance, as it turns out right before Delphi started getting interesting again.


On the other hand, if you're looking for ways to continue using Delphi,
then you have options. Just ask.

Right again, I haven't even talked to my rep about options. I just look at the upgrade pricing with each release and get annoyed all over again that its more than I'm willing to pay. I'm ticked off about how the price kept flying higher and higher on me with the XE4 upgrade and know that even if I wrangled the expensive upgrade price once If i didn't get back into maintenace I'd just be back in the same boat a year from now and really don't have 1500-2000 to throw at it, and while it really doesn't matter I feel like I paid my dues in all those years of maintenance.

These days I do the occasional odd project, mostly niche stuff and very rarely take on contact anymore... so there is not alot of money in it to justify the expense... and recently most of it has been windows store apps and apps for a clients Dell android tablets which are intel based so neither of those would benefit from Delphi anyway.

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Bruce McGee

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  Posted: Sep 14, 2014 8:46 AM   in response to: Dan Ridenhour in response to: Dan Ridenhour
Dan Ridenhour wrote:

Bruce McGee wrote:
I'll put this as gently as I can.

If you're in a screwed position, it's because you screwed up, not
because Embarcadero or anyone else screwed you.

Hindsight is 20/20. You are right that I screwed up, I actually
screwed up twice.

Three times if you include blaming Embarcadero for your own actions. :)

Screwing up isn't such a problem. It's what you do after that matters.

especially the years when there
wasn't even a release at all.

It's an annual subscription, for crying out loud!

Anyone that nit-picks about two releases that are more than exactly
twelve months apart aren't using it right and should never pay for a
subscription.

Imagine owning a Visual Studio subscription with two years between
releases sometimes.

Back then I thought so highly of
delphi I evangelized it to other developers and my 'hope' of what it
could be overshadowed the reality that it really wasn't going
anywhere.

I disagree with your perception of "reality" here.

I wasted alot of money during that time.

This was your real mistake.

The only reason someone should buy Delphi is if it's valuable to them.
The only reason someone should buy an upgrade is if there is something
in that upgrade that's worth paying for. And the only reason someone
should get a subscription is if they intend to upgrade often enough
that it will be less expensive and/or grief than buying the upgrades
separately.

I'm a pretty big fan of Delphi, but I'm also cheap. This only works if
there is mutual benefit.

I'm sure
there are others that got what they needed out of the new releases,
I'm sure there were people dying for unicode.

I'm one of them.

btw, I was doing Unicode in Delphi before D2009 using WideStrings and
the excellent TnT controls in Delphi 7. D2005 was the first version
that had Unicode support for databases without jumping through hoops.
When I eventually converted these big string handling apps to Delphi
2009, I stripped out a huge amount of code and the speed improved many
times.

The point being that I have found something interesting and useful in
every single version of Delphi. Even some the ones that wouldn't be
considered very successful.

(FPC iOS anyone).

Yeah, that was a little bizarre. I personally think this was released
too soon.

After XE3 I decided I needed to stop paying for hope and wait for a
product I could use. so I dropped my Maintenance, as it turns out
right before Delphi started getting interesting again.

It's like switching lanes while driving and then the lane you were just
in speeds up.

Definitely frustrating.

I'm ticked off
about how the price kept flying higher and higher on me with the XE4
upgrade

That's hyperbolic. Prices have gone up, but marginally. Especially if
you are on maintenance.

And again, comparing an upgrade with an upgrade plus add-ons isn't a
fair comparison.

and know that even if I wrangled the expensive upgrade price
once If i didn't get back into maintenace I'd just be back in the
same boat a year from now

I strongly recommend getting maintenance.

and really don't have 1500-2000 to throw at
it, and while it really doesn't ma tter I feel like I paid my dues
in all those years of maintenance.

On the one hand, I think this is kind of self inflicted.

On the other, I'd like to think that Embarcadero would take something
like this into consideration when upgrading.

These days I do the occasional odd project, mostly niche stuff and
very rarely take on contact anymore... so there is not alot of money
in it to justify the expense...

Fair enough.

I hope you change your mind, but if it's not worth while TO YOU, then
there's no sense.

and recently most of it has been
windows store apps and apps for a clients Dell android tablets which
are intel based so neither of those would benefit from Delphi anyway.

Not yet, anyway.

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Raul Sinimae

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  Posted: Sep 14, 2014 12:48 PM   in response to: Dan Ridenhour in response to: Dan Ridenhour
Dan Ridenhour wrote:
So I guess its sad really. Delphi is still my tool of choice but I rarely use it. I would love to do android dev in it and while I have access to it through my work mainteance since we haven't had a need I haven't touched any of it, never even installed it and wrote a hello world. I jumped ship at just the wrong time and assured I will never personally upgrade to a new edition of delphi again. And after , from my point of view essentially paying for nothing of use for years upon years I feel a little betrayed.

Not in the same boat as you but i do think delphi of today has become a commercial only dev tool. It's definitely less affordable choice than before for hobby and/or internal use app development (especially if internal use app is not for core business). There are lot of free and very capable other choices these days for this type of development (including of course ability for web development which delphi is not really in at all).

In terms of product and pricing there was a definite rough patch it went thru but i do believe the pricing does reflect the reality of keeping the company profitable and alive (and viable based on whatever business requirements were by various owners). From outside some of it did seem bit aggressive and i do personally think there was some experimentation there also with prices and to see what customers were willing to pay). If you use Delphi for a commercial product the cost is really insignificant, for personal use it's trickier.

My only suggestion is to look at what XE7 is capable of (mostly mobile capability as it sounds like you use VCL side already at work) and whether it's moving in the direction you will or want to use. We all have to make our own business decisions on tools and what they are worth to us.

If answer is yes to delphi then i'd suggest think of upgrade cost as future investment in more R&D (and you get to start using it right away) - and definitely get maintenance and you will need it with the current release cycle.

Raul

Dan Ridenhour

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  Posted: Sep 15, 2014 1:25 PM   in response to: Raul Sinimae in response to: Raul Sinimae
Raul Sinimae wrote:
Not in the same boat as you but i do think delphi of today has become a commercial only dev tool. It's definitely less affordable choice than before for hobby and/or internal use app development (especially if internal use app is not for core business). There are lot of free and very capable other choices these days for this type of development (including of course ability for web development which delphi is not really in at all).

I agree. Unfortunately its use as a commercial dev tool by any companies in my area has always been nil, my employer uses it because I brought with me and evangelized it, we have a full time development staff (me) that writes and maintains the systems used in our core business but the business is not software at all so we are not developing commercial software. So updates for the sake of updating never get alot of traction, its only when it brings something new that we want/need. For a long time the need was mobile but I stopped looking at delphi to support mobile after half baked semi-features to support Windows CF were dropped... so we went to other tools for mobile long before iOS and Android even existed.

My independent projects teen to be more niche or special interest... occasionally one makes good money but more often than not they just ad a bit of funds here and there. I could justify $500 a year for that amount of return as long as the tool was giving me something. When I got XE3 and realized I still had no reason to move past D2007 and the mobile support previously introduced had been pulled in favor of 'to be released later' tools YET AGAIN. I couldn't see the value in it anymore. Now if they had said... hey in 6 months we are doubling our prices and you will never be able to justify the product again I may have renewed. but hindsight is 20/20.


In terms of product and pricing there was a definite rough patch it went thru but i do believe the pricing does reflect the reality of keeping the company profitable and alive (and viable based on whatever business requirements were by various owners). From outside some of it did seem bit aggressive and i do personally think there was some experimentation there also with prices and to see what customers were willing to pay). If you use Delphi for a commercial product the cost is really insignificant, for personal use it's trickier.

My only suggestion is to look at what XE7 is capable of (mostly mobile capability as it sounds like you use VCL side already at work) and whether it's moving in the direction you will or want to use. We all have to make our own business decisions on tools and what they are worth to us.

If answer is yes to delphi then i'd suggest think of upgrade cost as future investment in more R&D (and you get to start using it right away) - and definitely get maintenance and you will need it with the current release cycle.

Raul
Borja Serrano

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  Posted: Sep 16, 2014 5:49 AM   in response to: Dan Ridenhour in response to: Dan Ridenhour
What about Appmethod (http://www.appmethod.com/pricing)? If you only want to test Delphi with Android it could be a good choice for you.
John Frazier


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  Posted: Sep 16, 2014 11:37 AM   in response to: Borja Serrano in response to: Borja Serrano
Borja Serrano wrote:
What about Appmethod (http://www.appmethod.com/pricing)? If you only want to test Delphi with Android it could be a good choice for you.

Most excellent suggestion IMO. Not to mention it includes M&S for the year.
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Dan Ridenhour

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  Posted: Sep 16, 2014 1:05 PM   in response to: John Frazier in response to: John Frazier
John Frazier wrote:
Borja Serrano wrote:
What about Appmethod (http://www.appmethod.com/pricing)? If you only want to test Delphi with Android it could be a good choice for you.

Most excellent suggestion IMO. Not to mention it includes M&S for the year.

I looked at the appmethod website a while back when looking at available tools but didn't even connect this was embarcadero or delphi. What is this?

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  Posted: Sep 16, 2014 9:27 PM   in response to: Dan Ridenhour in response to: Dan Ridenhour
Dan Ridenhour wrote:
John Frazier wrote:
Borja Serrano wrote:
What about Appmethod (http://www.appmethod.com/pricing)? If you only want to test Delphi with Android it could be a good choice for you.

Most excellent suggestion IMO. Not to mention it includes M&S for the year.

I looked at the appmethod website a while back when looking at available tools but didn't even connect this was embarcadero or delphi. What is this?

It is multi-platform RAD Studio in an ala carte platform delivery. Core difference is it is designed to be multi-platform so yes to FireMonkey and there is no VCL or Win-only baggage. However we give you Enterprise functionality even at the lower SKU price which is something I see a lot of folks miss. Yep, you get Datasnap by default, just you will notice with Windows tied wizards and components are gone. We even offer a "free forever" option that is C++ only and Android phones. Check it out at http://appmethod.com
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Dan Ridenhour

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  Posted: Sep 16, 2014 9:38 PM   in response to: John Frazier in response to: John Frazier
John Frazier wrote:
Dan Ridenhour wrote:
John Frazier wrote:
Borja Serrano wrote:
What about Appmethod (http://www.appmethod.com/pricing)? If you only want to test Delphi with Android it could be a good choice for you.

Most excellent suggestion IMO. Not to mention it includes M&S for the year.

I looked at the appmethod website a while back when looking at available tools but didn't even connect this was embarcadero or delphi. What is this?

It is multi-platform RAD Studio in an ala carte platform delivery. Core difference is it is designed to be multi-platform so yes to FireMonkey and there is no VCL or Win-only baggage. However we give you Enterprise functionality even at the lower SKU price which is something I see a lot of folks miss. Yep, you get Datasnap by default, just you will notice with Windows tied wizards and components are gone. We even offer a "free forever" option that is C++ only and Android phones. Check it out at http://appmethod.com

Thanks for the info. I checked out the site earlier today and talked to someone in their online chat for a while about it. Its funny though that you gave a better description of the differences in that paragraph than I got in a 20 minute chat. lol. They were informative though just not about differences between the two.

I haven't used C++ by choice since I stopped doing OS/2 development so the android free has little interest. I like the enterprise level functionality but hate the lack of windows or VCL in it. One reason I would like to come back to delphi is to consolidate a bit. Im using alot of great, good and ok tools now but would like to consolidate more of it under the same IDE not add more ides.

After talking in chat today I figured it would be at least 2 platforms (android + windows) which is 50 a month or 600 a year and its not actually a monthly pay but a yearly one so it didn't sound like the best of solutions. For android only its 300 a year but not sure if its worth spending $300 to lose intel compatibility and gain native compilation. Especially when it really doesn't address getting me back into the delphi fold so to speak.

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  Posted: Sep 17, 2014 9:45 PM   in response to: Dan Ridenhour in response to: Dan Ridenhour
Dan Ridenhour wrote:
Thanks for the info. I checked out the site earlier today and talked to someone in their online chat for a while about it. Its funny though that you gave a better description of the differences in that paragraph than I got in a 20 minute chat. lol. They were informative though just not about differences between the two.

Sorry bout that. 'Tis the difference between 21+ years of being a tech here versus a sales person who may be new. :) We do our best to train but ya gotta admit these product families are DEEP and takes a lot to comprehend everything they can do. I'm pretty sure I've spoken to you on the phone at least once too so you always have the ability to create a web case or call and one of us will get you the right info.
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Dan Ridenhour

Posts: 46
Registered: 8/21/08
Re: Anyone else in this screwed situation.
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  Posted: Sep 18, 2014 4:26 PM   in response to: John Frazier in response to: John Frazier
John Frazier wrote:
Dan Ridenhour wrote:
Thanks for the info. I checked out the site earlier today and talked to someone in their online chat for a while about it. Its funny though that you gave a better description of the differences in that paragraph than I got in a 20 minute chat. lol. They were informative though just not about differences between the two.

Sorry bout that. 'Tis the difference between 21+ years of being a tech here versus a sales person who may be new. :) We do our best to train but ya gotta admit these product families are DEEP and takes a lot to comprehend everything they can do. I'm pretty sure I've spoken to you on the phone at least once too so you always have the ability to create a web case or call and one of us will get you the right info.

No problem whatsoever... it was actually cool hearing two completely different perspectives and they did actually realize I probably needed to talk to someone else and asked for my contact info, etc.

I don't think the appmethod setup works for me though... I wan't windows and android dev and VCL on the windows side. I think im the same place I was last year... dropped my personal SA when prices become unreasonable for my independent usage and they have stayed that way since then. When I dropped my SA i was extremely frustrated with the missteps and false starts... for years what i wanted was always pushed to the next release then the next... but today with the way you are releasing product it doesn't make sense to even buy it unless your on the SA going forward otherwise you will quickly be back in the same boat... see when i canceled the maintenance and upgrades were only about $100 different in price but the updates are alot more expensive, even the recharges are more. So I'm looking at at least $1500 to 'get back in' to the delphi ecosystem and I can't justify that for my usage. Which unfortunately keeps me on the same course at work as well with delphi being legacy only as I tend to use at work what I experiment with at home.

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Bruce McGee

Posts: 1,716
Registered: 9/30/99
Re: Anyone else in this screwed situation.
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  Posted: Sep 16, 2014 6:16 AM   in response to: Dan Ridenhour in response to: Dan Ridenhour
Dan Ridenhour wrote:

doubling our prices

The price never doubled between releases.

Please show us exactly what you are comparing. I maintain that you are
calling the difference between a special upgrade offer and the regular
upgrade price a big increase. If I'm wrong, I'll eat my words.

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Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
John Frazier


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Registered: 2/17/00
Re: Anyone else in this screwed situation.
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  Posted: Sep 16, 2014 11:35 AM   in response to: Bruce McGee in response to: Bruce McGee
Bruce McGee wrote:
Dan Ridenhour wrote:

doubling our prices

The price never doubled between releases.

Please show us exactly what you are comparing. I maintain that you are
calling the difference between a special upgrade offer and the regular
upgrade price a big increase. If I'm wrong, I'll eat my words.

You are correct, we have never doubled prices between releases. This is an apples/oranges comparison. FTR, just use this simple logic... if we did something as crazy as doubling prices between releases, what do you think would happen to our phone lines? They would blow the heck up with screaming people and that simply has never happened... I answer said phone lines and sit next to, and hear others who do the same. :)
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Dan Ridenhour

Posts: 46
Registered: 8/21/08
Re: Anyone else in this screwed situation.
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  Posted: Sep 16, 2014 1:19 PM   in response to: John Frazier in response to: John Frazier
John Frazier wrote:
Bruce McGee wrote:
Dan Ridenhour wrote:

doubling our prices

The price never doubled between releases.

Please show us exactly what you are comparing. I maintain that you are
calling the difference between a special upgrade offer and the regular
upgrade price a big increase. If I'm wrong, I'll eat my words.

You are correct, we have never doubled prices between releases. This is an apples/oranges comparison. FTR, just use this simple logic... if we did something as crazy as doubling prices between releases, what do you think would happen to our phone lines? They would blow the heck up with screaming people and that simply has never happened... I answer said phone lines and sit next to, and hear others who do the same. :)

John,

All of the prices I quoted and where I got the doubling of price in 3 months were from the normal email upgrade offers sent out to me before and after the XE4 release. I had gotten XE3 with my Maintenance and was waiting for mobile to come out at its 'nominal fee'.

I had an XE3 Rad Studio license (going back forever either on maintenance or before that upgrades).

First mobile came out at $299 with iOS and (android in the future). So I passed as android was my primary interest.

In august I got the pre-release upgrade offer. Update for $499 now and get the mobile tools AND XE4 Rad studio free once its released. I had seen so many false starts that I wanted to see if first so I waited.

Three weeks later in september (a week early I believe) XE4 was released and I got an upgrade special offer for $899 for rad studio XE4 from XE3. $400 more than it was offered 3 weeks earlier which I thought excessive. Typically after release the upgrade offers go up $50-100 and I was prepared for that but not nearly double. So I passed.

Next I got an email in november, with a special offer from embarcadero for 10% off upgrading to XE4, no prices were listed in the email just a link to your order site. So i checked it out and found that the upgrade price was now $1079 so the 10% off still made it higher than the $499 I was offered 3 months earlier... and $1079 is over double the $499 I was originally offered.

If the $499 email had stated... last chance, prices are going crazy soon I may have went for it and hoped android panned out.

As it turned out, that little event changed the course of my delphi use. I use other tools for my independent projects these days and since I'm not using delphi on my work I'm no longer evangelizing its use or using it for new projects at work. I still make sure my employer keeps their maintenance agreement current but the only thing we have used it for in years is to re-download Delphi 7 so we could work with an older project. While ive likely become much more marketable being more tool agnostic, I do miss delphi so every new release bugs me a bit and I post a message about it. If you look back there is likely one last september and the one before. lol.

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Quentin Correll


Posts: 2,412
Registered: 12/1/99
Re: Anyone else in this screwed situation.
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  Posted: Sep 16, 2014 2:15 PM   in response to: Dan Ridenhour in response to: Dan Ridenhour
Dan,

| I d o miss delphi so every new release bugs me a bit and I post a
| message| about it. If you look back there is likely one last
september
| and the one before. lol.

John can't look back...
the NNTP newsgroups database has gone bye-bye. ;-)

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William Egge

Posts: 98
Registered: 11/29/06
Re: Anyone else in this screwed situation.
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  Posted: Nov 12, 2014 9:30 AM   in response to: Dan Ridenhour in response to: Dan Ridenhour
Hi Dan, I actually did the reverse of you. I had D2007 Enterprise forever, then bought the professional version. I never bought Maintenance for.. well forever. With all the new things they are doing, and language features, I made the decision to fork out the 1500 for Enterprise upgrade along with the 780 Maintenance. It was fun buying a new and shiny toy. So now I am just going to keep up the Maintenance.

I still do all of my work in Delphi and like you, I promote it wherever I go with success (It is hard though because people do not know what Delphi can do or have a 30 year old memory of seeing pascal in school).

I think you can turn this around, just bite the bullet and get the maintenance and then make sure you "use" Delphi.
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