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Thread: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language



Permlink Replies: 170 - Last Post: Jan 18, 2018 4:34 PM Last Post By: David Jacobo Ag...
Luigi Sandon

Posts: 351
Registered: 10/15/99
StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Oct 31, 2017 6:40 AM
https://stackoverflow.blog/2017/10/31/disliked-programming-languages/

Embarcadero marketing has to work far better....
Kim Madsen

Posts: 350
Registered: 12/13/99
Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Oct 31, 2017 8:08 AM   in response to: Luigi Sandon in response to: Luigi Sandon
That has absolutely nothing to do with marketing or anything.
It has to do with incorrect statistics manipulation.

Since the majority of people use say Java or C#, the majority of people
will have less interest in anything Delphi related, why they mark that
as not of their interest.

It it should have any meaning, they magically should count the number of
actual C# developers and correlate that with the number of them that has
decided to dislike C#. Do the same with Java and Delphi, and you will
have a value that is more indicative of actual dislike of something,
based on actual choise and knowledge.

best regards
Kim/C4D

On 31/10/2017 14.40, Luigi Sandon wrote:
https://stackoverflow.blog/2017/10/31/disliked-programming-languages/

Embarcadero marketing has to work far better....
Luigi Sandon

Posts: 351
Registered: 10/15/99
Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Oct 31, 2017 11:14 AM   in response to: Kim Madsen in response to: Kim Madsen
Since the majority of people use say Java or C#, the majority of people

You would be surprised about how many Delphi developers switched to C#.... most of my old colleagues I started to work with in Delphi twenty years ago made that switch.

It would be interesting to know why Delphi got that position - because lack of curly braces? Because a job in Delphi is regarded as an elephants' graveyard? Because they don't trust the product and the owner anymore?

Anyway, if this is an existing trend, it should be something someone at Embarcadero should think about....

I'm anyway surprised Java is not in the top three....
Dalija Prasnikar

Posts: 2,324
Registered: 11/9/99
Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Oct 31, 2017 11:46 AM   in response to: Luigi Sandon in response to: Luigi Sandon
Luigi Sandon wrote:
Since the majority of people use say Java or C#, the majority of people

You would be surprised about how many Delphi developers switched to C#.... most of my old colleagues I started to work with in Delphi twenty years ago made that switch.

It would be interesting to know why Delphi got that position - because lack of curly braces? Because a job in Delphi is regarded as an elephants' graveyard? Because they don't trust the product and the owner anymore?

Anyway, if this is an existing trend, it should be something someone at Embarcadero should think about....

I'm anyway surprised Java is not in the top three....

That is because of the place from which those numbers were pulled from.

It is list of languages and technologies you put in your preference when
looking for a job. It is not plain like/dislike list.

If you know Java, you will put it on the list of technologies you want to work
with because there is plenty of Java jobs out there. You don't want to limit
your opportunities because you dislike language.

I have Java on the likes list and I really hate it. But I know Java, so...

Of course, I have Delphi first... I also have Swift there, but the last, but that is merely
because I know Java better than Swift... not because I like it more.

We can discuss why would people put Delphi on don't want to work with list...
but that would probably be quite meaningless....

--
Dalija Prasnikar
Embarcadero MVP
https://igoto.co/dalijap
Delphi Memory Management for Classic and ARC Compilers
https://igoto.co/DelphiMM
John David

Posts: 68
Registered: 9/5/16
Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Oct 31, 2017 12:02 PM   in response to: Luigi Sandon in response to: Luigi Sandon
On 31/10/2017 18:14, Luigi Sandon wrote:
Since the majority of people use say Java or C#, the majority of people

You would be surprised about how many Delphi developers switched to C#.... most of my old colleagues I started to work with in Delphi twenty years ago made that switch.

The reason for this is the price structure of Delphi and Builder
products. I used to buy Borland/Turbo Pascal and CPP products when new
versions were released because the price was just about right. I also
bought Delphi 1 and 2 because ot was still affordable.

Now it is completely out of my budget. I get free products from
Microsoft so why should I pay 500, 600 or 700 for Embarcadero products.
It is just madness.

They should bring down the prices dramatically so that the products are
affordable.

Also, their special deals have all gone. In UK Grey Matter controls the
marketing of products and I never buy anything from them. There are no
special deals these days.

For me Starter Editions are that I need and thank god they are FREE.


It would be interesting to know why Delphi got that position

Could be two reasons:

1) Price
2) Getting away from traditional pascal language.

People want something different; Something like in this research paper:

<http://people.csail.mit.edu/shanir/publications/HLS.pdf>

They are using traditional pascal and that is what Embarcadero should
have stuck with as much as possible. I know it must be difficult but
they should have kept the simplicity as the core principles like C# is
today.


I'm anyway surprised Java is not in the top three....

I think Microsoft is fighting back to grab the market on all spheres -
web and Apps. Look at the videos they keep releasing about their products.
Markus Humm

Posts: 5,062
Registered: 11/9/03
Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Oct 31, 2017 12:21 PM   in response to: John David in response to: John David
Am 31.10.2017 um 20:02 schrieb John David:
On 31/10/2017 18:14, Luigi Sandon wrote:
Since the majority of people use say Java or C#, the majority of people

You would be surprised about how many Delphi developers switched to C#.... most of my old colleagues I started to work with in Delphi twenty years ago made that switch.

The reason for this is the price structure of Delphi and Builder
products. I used to buy Borland/Turbo Pascal and CPP products when new
versions were released because the price was just about right. I also
bought Delphi 1 and 2 because ot was still affordable.

Now it is completely out of my budget. I get free products from
Microsoft so why should I pay 500, 600 or 700 for Embarcadero products.
It is just madness.

They should bring down the prices dramatically so that the products are
affordable.

Also, their special deals have all gone. In UK Grey Matter controls the
marketing of products and I never buy anything from them. There are no
special deals these days.

Hm? I do regularily get EMBT advertisements with new promos of different
sorts. But I'm not in the UK, I'm in continental Europe...
(maybe brexit related ;-) )

Greetings

Markus
Arkady Semylio

Posts: 7
Registered: 5/25/17
Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Nov 1, 2017 12:46 AM   in response to: John David in response to: John David
John David wrote:
For me Starter Editions are that I need and thank god they are FREE.

Interesting. I always thought that with the starter edition wasn't possible
to do commercial products.

Bye
John David

Posts: 68
Registered: 9/5/16
Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Nov 1, 2017 11:20 AM   in response to: Arkady Semylio in response to: Arkady Semylio
On 01/11/2017 07:46, Arkady Semylio wrote:
John David wrote:
For me Starter Editions are that I need and thank god they are FREE.

Interesting. I always thought that with the starter edition wasn't possible
to do commercial products.

Bye

I don't create any commercial Apps so this doesn't bother me. I had
some old Turbo/Borland pascal Apps/tools which I am slowly trying to
migrate to modern Windows based which can be distributed free of charge
on github with the relevant source code. That is the plan but whether
it works out is a different matter altogether.

I am spending a lot of time doing Web Apps using visual Studio. My next
ambition is to create a Web based UI for Accounting and Tax software to
integrate with MSSQL which is the main data storage for these packages.
so if there are people with these expertise then please let me know so
that we can start doing something on a small scale and then who knows we
could make a living out of it.

UK needs Apps that are affordable and easy to use.
Yogi Yang

Posts: 57
Registered: 12/23/06
Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Nov 28, 2017 8:47 PM   in response to: John David in response to: John David
John David wrote:
On 01/11/2017 07:46, Arkady Semylio wrote:
John David wrote:
For me Starter Editions are that I need and thank god they are FREE.

Interesting. I always thought that with the starter edition wasn't possible
to do commercial products.

Bye

I don't create any commercial Apps so this doesn't bother me. I had
some old Turbo/Borland pascal Apps/tools which I am slowly trying to
migrate to modern Windows based which can be distributed free of charge
on github with the relevant source code. That is the plan but whether
it works out is a different matter altogether.

I am spending a lot of time doing Web Apps using visual Studio. My next
ambition is to create a Web based UI for Accounting and Tax software to
integrate with MSSQL which is the main data storage for these packages.
so if there are people with these expertise then please let me know so
that we can start doing something on a small scale and then who knows we
could make a living out of it.

UK needs Apps that are affordable and easy to use.

John do check these out:
https://www.alpha360.biz/business-applications
https://sourceforge.net/projects/erp-crm-advant/?source=typ_redirect

They are build in C#.

In face I have found VIENNA Advantage to be really very powerful and very easy to extend as per ones need.
Eivind Bakkestuen


Posts: 436
Registered: 5/8/01
Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Nov 2, 2017 7:09 AM   in response to: Arkady Semylio in response to: Arkady Semylio
Interesting. I always thought that with the starter edition wasn't
possible to do commercial products.

Not strictly true; the license says that you need to purchase a higher
SKU if you use Starter to produce more than $1000 of revenue (if I
remember correctly).

--
Eivind Bakkestuen [NDD]
Markus Humm

Posts: 5,062
Registered: 11/9/03
Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Oct 31, 2017 12:20 PM   in response to: Luigi Sandon in response to: Luigi Sandon
Am 31.10.2017 um 19:14 schrieb Luigi Sandon:
Since the majority of people use say Java or C#, the majority of people

You would be surprised about how many Delphi developers switched to C#.... most of my old colleagues I started to work with in Delphi twenty years ago made that switch.

It would be interesting to know why Delphi got that position - because lack of curly braces? Because a job in Delphi is regarded as an elephants' graveyard? Because they don't trust the product and the owner anymore?

Anyway, if this is an existing trend, it should be something someone at Embarcadero should think about....

I'm anyway surprised Java is not in the top three....

You're not really answering to the statement made by the post: that the
way that statistic seems to be built/generated seems not to be 100%
correct way of doing this.

Greetings

Markus
Luigi Sandon

Posts: 351
Registered: 10/15/99
Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Nov 1, 2017 8:41 AM   in response to: Markus Humm in response to: Markus Humm
Markus Humm wrote:
You're not really answering to the statement made by the post: that the
way that statistic seems to be built/generated seems not to be 100%
correct way of doing this.

It's just what SO developers wrote in their profiles, and how SO processed them - OK. But it still looks there is a not so small number who explicitly say they wish to avoid to work in Delphi, instead of other tools. That means they know what Delphi is (and maybe worked with it) but prefer to not work with it any longer. As I wrote, I would like to understand the reasons behind those data. C# developers frightened of Delphi? IMHO, it's not really something alike, Delphi lost the battle with MS tools long ago. That's just my opinion, the real reasons don't surface from that data, yet it still an outcome that surprised me.
Dalija Prasnikar

Posts: 2,324
Registered: 11/9/99
Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Nov 1, 2017 9:03 AM   in response to: Luigi Sandon in response to: Luigi Sandon
Luigi Sandon wrote:
Markus Humm wrote:
You're not really answering to the statement made by the post: that the
way that statistic seems to be built/generated seems not to be 100%
correct way of doing this.

It's just what SO developers wrote in their profiles, and how SO processed them - OK. But it still looks there is a not so small number who explicitly say they wish to avoid to work in Delphi, instead of other tools. That means they know what Delphi is (and maybe worked with it) but prefer to not work with it any longer. As I wrote, I would like to understand the reasons behind those data. C# developers frightened of Delphi? IMHO, it's not really something alike, Delphi lost the battle with MS tools long ago. That's just my opinion, the real reasons don't surface from that data, yet it still an outcome that surprised me.

The only possible explanation I can think of is that those developers
have heard of Delphi but don't know how to use it.

So they put something there just because.

I have hard time imagining why would anyone even put something
he knows in "dislike" category. You can always not take job
offer you don't like, missing potential opportunity, even if you don't
particularly like some technology, is not something I would do and
I have hard time imagining who would.

--
Dalija Prasnikar
Embarcadero MVP
https://igoto.co/dalijap
Delphi Memory Management for Classic and ARC Compilers
https://igoto.co/DelphiMM
Luigi Sandon

Posts: 351
Registered: 10/15/99
Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Nov 2, 2017 2:19 AM   in response to: Dalija Prasnikar in response to: Dalija Prasnikar
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:
I have hard time imagining why would anyone even put something
he knows in "dislike" category. You can always not take job
offer you don't like, missing potential opportunity, even if you don't
particularly like some technology, is not something I would do and
I have hard time imagining who would.

Why not? You may have no longer any interest in working with some technologies, even if you used them in the past. One reason may be you see it as a dead-end, and you don't want really spend time working on something that will keep you away from more trending and maybe better paid jobs.

One thing is being an ISV - maybe even a micro one - what you use to develop your product usually is not a customer issue. Or maybe a consultant, you'll spend some time and move away anyway. Another thing is being an employee, you may not want to find yourself trapped in a job with very little chances of future improvements.
Dalija Prasnikar

Posts: 2,324
Registered: 11/9/99
Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Nov 2, 2017 2:45 AM   in response to: Luigi Sandon in response to: Luigi Sandon
Luigi Sandon wrote:
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:
I have hard time imagining why would anyone even put something
he knows in "dislike" category. You can always not take job
offer you don't like, missing potential opportunity, even if you don't
particularly like some technology, is not something I would do and
I have hard time imagining who would.

Why not? You may have no longer any interest in working with some technologies, even if you used them in the past. One reason may be you see it as a dead-end, and you don't want really spend time working on something that will keep you away from more trending and maybe better paid jobs.

One thing is being an ISV - maybe even a micro one - what you use to develop your product usually is not a customer issue. Or maybe a consultant, you'll spend some time and move away anyway. Another thing is being an employee, you may not want to find yourself trapped in a job with very little chances of future improvements.

As I said, I see no point in putting anything I know to "dislike" list.

I can understand reasons you stated. They are perfectly valid ones.
However, from my POV they are not reasons to put that technology
in "don't want to work with" list.

Even if that particular technology is not your primary interest any more,
why limit yourself from getting potentially great job offer. They are job offers,
you are free not to pursue them.

Maybe, this is just me...

--
Dalija Prasnikar
Embarcadero MVP
https://igoto.co/dalijap
Delphi Memory Management for Classic and ARC Compilers
https://igoto.co/DelphiMM
Joseph Mitzen

Posts: 388
Registered: 6/9/02
Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Nov 11, 2017 10:32 AM   in response to: Dalija Prasnikar in response to: Dalija Prasnikar
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:

The only possible explanation I can think of is that those developers
have heard of Delphi but don't know how to use it.

That's really the only explanation you can think of? How about the most obvious one? The article points out that many of the most disliked are considered old tech. People today see "Delphi" and have the same reaction I had in school to being told I was going to have to learn COBOL. Additionally, being struck in a Delphi job could be considered a career dead end if it's thought of as legacy tech.

I have hard time imagining why would anyone even put something
he knows in "dislike" category.

Are there people you know that you dislike? Have you ever had a job you disliked? I know lots of things I don't or wouldn't enjoy using today.

You can always not take job
offer you don't like, missing potential opportunity, even if you don't
particularly like some technology, is not something I would do and
I have hard time imagining who would.

The Perl users on Reddit put it this way: putting down that you dislike Perl on your profile was a good way to avoid a job offer maintaining someone's awful 1990's Perl scripts. Why waste time getting job offers or interview requests for something you know you don't want to do?
Dalija Prasnikar

Posts: 2,324
Registered: 11/9/99
Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Nov 13, 2017 4:14 AM   in response to: Joseph Mitzen in response to: Joseph Mitzen
Joseph Mitzen wrote:
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:

The only possible explanation I can think of is that those developers
have heard of Delphi but don't know how to use it.

That's really the only explanation you can think of? How about the most obvious one? The article points out that many of the most disliked are considered old tech. People today see "Delphi" and have the same reaction I had in school to being told I was going to have to learn COBOL. Additionally, being struck in a Delphi job could be considered a career dead end if it's thought of as legacy tech.

New tech, old tech... there are still COBOL programmers out there
making good money.

Point is that if you have some skill then you are not going to ignore it
unless you are not really good at it.

I have hard time imagining why would anyone even put something
he knows in "dislike" category.

Are there people you know that you dislike? Have you ever had a job you disliked? I know lots of things I don't or wouldn't enjoy using today.

Disliking particular job is one thing, connecting that particular
dislike with technology is another.

I could get lousy Delphi job just as well I could get lousy Java job.

If one cannot make distinction between technology and how it is used...
well, there is not much I can say...


You can always not take job
offer you don't like, missing potential opportunity, even if you don't
particularly like some technology, is not something I would do and
I have hard time imagining who would.

The Perl users on Reddit put it this way: putting down that you dislike Perl on your profile was a good way to avoid a job offer maintaining someone's awful 1990's Perl scripts. Why waste time getting job offers or interview requests for something you know you don't want to do?

The way I will avoid getting job offers for Perl is not putting it in
my likes list, not by putting it my dislike list.

And before I actually get job offer for Perl I cannot say for sure
whether I would be maintaining some horrible Perl codebase or
some nice Perl codebase.

--
Dalija Prasnikar
Embarcadero MVP
https://igoto.co/dalijap
Delphi Memory Management for Classic and ARC Compilers
https://igoto.co/DelphiMM
Rudy Velthuis (...


Posts: 7,684
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Nov 1, 2017 9:42 AM   in response to: Luigi Sandon in response to: Luigi Sandon
Luigi Sandon wrote:

Since the majority of people use say Java or C#, the majority of
people

You would be surprised about how many Delphi developers switched to
C#...

People switch languages all the time, away from Delphi but also toward
Delphi. Your anecdotal "evidence" doesn't mean a lot either.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"As a child I understood how to give; I have forgotten this
grace since I became civilized."
-- Ohiyesa, Sioux
Luigi Sandon

Posts: 351
Registered: 10/15/99
Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Nov 2, 2017 2:11 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
People switch languages all the time, away from Delphi but also toward
Delphi. Your anecdotal "evidence" doesn't mean a lot either.

I can assure you that my "anecdotal evidence" working in the software development business is means more than the anecdotal one of a dentist.
Mark Marks

Posts: 260
Registered: 9/11/00
Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Nov 2, 2017 7:42 AM   in response to: Luigi Sandon in response to: Luigi Sandon
Luigi Sandon wrote:

I can assure you that my "anecdotal evidence" working in the software
development business is means more than the anecdotal one of a
dentist.

HA
Rudy Velthuis (...


Posts: 7,684
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Nov 3, 2017 4:38 AM   in response to: Luigi Sandon in response to: Luigi Sandon
Luigi Sandon wrote:

People switch languages all the time, away from Delphi but also
toward Delphi. Your anecdotal "evidence" doesn't mean a lot either.

I can assure you that my "anecdotal evidence" working in the software
development business is means more than the anecdotal one of a
dentist.

You can assure whatever you like.

I don't provide anecdotal evidence, knowing that it would not mean
anything anyway. In other words: there is no "anecdotal evidence of a
dentist", so your "assurance" is a strawman.

The fact you work in "the business" doesn't mean a lot either, because
it remains anecdotal evidence, hence pretty useless.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"It is practically imposible to teach good programming to
students that have had a prior exposure to BASIC: as potential
programmers they are mentally mutilated beyond hope of
regeneration." -- Edsger Dijkstra
Joseph Mitzen

Posts: 388
Registered: 6/9/02
Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Nov 11, 2017 10:45 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB, MVP) wrote:

People switch languages all the time, away from Delphi but also toward
Delphi.

No, people don't switch to old tech. As Stack Overflow's own data shows (confirming a study I did myself on Stack Overflow data a few years prior) there has been a steady decline in percentage of questions pertaining to Delphi almost since the inception of Stack Overflow, something not observed in other major languages. If there was a net migration towards Delphi or even a neutral situation we wouldn't observe this behavior.

Your anecdotal "evidence" doesn't mean a lot either.

We've seen C# decimate the Delphi community, we've seen third party vendors survive by embracing C#, we've never met a single person here who moved to Delphi from C# but we've lost many to C# (e.g. Sean Webb). You're trying to get us to doubt what the entire world knows. Once again, we have another data point (of what - 20? 100 now?) that all confirm the "Delphi is a marginal community made up of a few legacy users with no prospect for growth and a slow bleeding off of existing users" hypothesis. Every single quantifiable measurement that's ever been made confirms this hypothesis; absolutely nothing is indicative of "Delphi is healthy/important/has three million users" hypothesis. You're not going to convince anyone that we can't trust what we can all see with our own eyes. As I've noted elsewhere, even Anton Popov in an interview stated that they don't see any demand for Delphi among young developers so they're not even looking there as a way to grow revenue. Even Idera knows what this Stack Overflow analysis tells us.

I at least hope they give you some form of recognition for trying to get the rest of us to deny reality up until the very end. I greatly admire your persistence. I'm reminded of someone commenting on a debate with Christopher Hitchens about how powerful and eloquently he argued and "he would have won the debate too but for the fact that he was wrong". :-)
Clement Doss

Posts: 72
Registered: 3/26/00
Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Nov 1, 2017 12:28 PM   in response to: Luigi Sandon in response to: Luigi Sandon
Hi,

You would be surprised about how many Delphi developers switched to C#.... most of my old colleagues I started to work with in Delphi twenty years ago made that switch.

Some colleagues also moved to C#. More samples, more documentation, more jobs..


It would be interesting to know why Delphi got that position - because lack of curly braces? Because a job in Delphi is regarded as an elephants' graveyard? Because they don't trust the product and the owner anymore?

I would say it's a combination of things. You can rule out the syntax. Typing curly braces or begin end has no effect.
IME those points require EMB attention:
1) Delphi is OLD and yet many programmers and managers don't have the slightest idea of what Delphi can or can't do!
2) Most documentation and samples are old. Some samples displayed by Google are from 2000-2004! They still work but most of them can be rewritten in a modern syntax. And yet, who can blame someone for not willing to try a 2004 written code in 2017!!
3) School/College. No new developpers are getting in. Youngsters are turning to other languages!! (Price + Market + Availability) How many will find a company using Delphi as it mainstream IDE?
4) The price is SCARY! Emb. has to review the cost/benefit of purchasing DELPHI vs purchasing Visual Studio. Microsoft has a LOT more to offer for the price. As I said several times, more and more companies are moving away from delphi because it costs too much! Growing companies are ruling out delphi because of the price! They have moved delphi project to maintenance only because buying new licenses would cost MORE than the project itself ( I saw that happens in company with 1 developer and with 5 developers). It's useless to say that FMX is going to save EMB (Same code several platform). 2 companies I work for are using Android studio for native development. It's easier and cheaper to find Android Studio developer than a FMX developer.
5) It is getting harder and harder to find Delphi developers. Several are moving to C# because there's more jobs.

Instead of finding a way to make Delphi cheaper and stable, EMB is managing to make complex, unstable and expensive environment.

Clément
Rael Bauer

Posts: 222
Registered: 10/10/02
Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language [Edit]
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  Posted: Nov 1, 2017 6:42 PM   in response to: Clement Doss in response to: Clement Doss
On 2017/11/02 12:04 AM, Clement Doss wrote:
You can rule out the syntax. Typing curly braces or begin end has no effect.

I'm not so sure about that. I spent some time with C#, and you will
notice that for web dev, it is usually javascript on the client-side and
C# on the backend. When you know C# or a C based language, it opens up
doors for you, since then things like javascript and php, while
different, are still familiar, and easier to get into.

Delphi or pascal is quite a unique language, and look at how web dev
products like unigui, intraweb & EWB exist that allow you to stick with
pascal for an entire web based project. Why would such a need even
arise? In C# world there is no such thing. It goes without saying that
you use javascript for the front end.

Delphi is quite a closed eco-system and does not encourage integration
with other languages..

-Rael
Phillip Woon

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Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Nov 2, 2017 7:35 AM   in response to: Clement Doss in response to: Clement Doss
1) Delphi is OLD and yet many programmers and managers don't have the slightest idea of what Delphi can or can't do!

Isn't Java older? C++? Even C# is about 16-17 years old.
Kim Madsen

Posts: 350
Registered: 12/13/99
Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Nov 2, 2017 8:53 AM   in response to: Phillip Woon in response to: Phillip Woon
On 02/11/2017 15.35, Phillip Woon wrote:
1) Delphi is OLD and yet many programmers and managers don't have the slightest idea of what Delphi can or can't do!

Isn't Java older? C++? Even C# is about 16-17 years old.

Well.. it depends on how one counts.

- C++ is originally presented in 1983

- Java is originally presented in 1995

- C# is originally presented in 2000

- Delphi first appeared as Delphi in 1995

- Turbo Pascal from which Delphi originates, first appeared in 1983

- Poly Pascal and Compas Pascal from which Turbo Pascal somehow (same
author) originates, first appeared in 1980

- Original Pascal was presented by Niklaus Wirth in 1970

- Apple was behind Object Pascal from 1986, which also influenced Turbo
Pascal with Objects and thus Delphi.

No doubt the syntax has evolved since 1970, but the most of the orignal
syntax still exists.

But obviously one can make a similar road back in time with C and B,
which were the precursors for the C++, Java and C# syntax. C++ generally
still supports the old C syntax, while Java and C# dont.

- C was in its v1 in 1973
- B and BPCL originates back to late 1960's.

So I would generally that the two syntax styles have competed all the
way since 70's and its not so strange, since BPCL, B and C was invented
as a way to writer in a slightly higher than assembler abstraction
level, with reusability of source code in mind thru the compiler.

Algol and Pascal took a slightly different approach in that code was
supposed to be "readable" and unambiguous.

best regards
Kim/C4D
Rudy Velthuis (...


Posts: 7,684
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Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Nov 9, 2017 2:11 PM   in response to: Kim Madsen in response to: Kim Madsen
Kim Madsen wrote:

On 02/11/2017 15.35, Phillip Woon wrote:
1) Delphi is OLD and yet many programmers and managers don't
have the slightest idea of what Delphi can or can't do!

Isn't Java older? C++? Even C# is about 16-17 years old.

Well.. it depends on how one counts.

- C++ is originally presented in 1983

- Java is originally presented in 1995

- C# is originally presented in 2000

- Delphi first appeared as Delphi in 1995

- Turbo Pascal from which Delphi originates, first appeared in 1983

- Poly Pascal and Compas Pascal from which Turbo Pascal somehow (same
author) originates, first appeared in 1980

- Original Pascal was presented by Niklaus Wirth in 1970

- Apple was behind Object Pascal from 1986, which also influenced
Turbo Pascal with Objects and thus Delphi.

No doubt the syntax has evolved since 1970, but the most of the
orignal syntax still exists.

But obviously one can make a similar road back in time with C and B,
which were the precursors for the C++, Java and C# syntax. C++
generally still supports the old C syntax, while Java and C# dont.

- C was in its v1 in 1973
- B and BPCL originates back to late 1960's.

So I would generally that the two syntax styles have competed all the
way since 70's

BCPL had quite a different syntax. No curlies, but $( and $) instead.
And := for assignment. No semicolons. One vector for all variables.
IOW, syntax-wise not like C at all.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"The total absence of humor in the Bible is one of the most
singular things in all literature."
-- Alfred North Whitehead
Joseph Mitzen

Posts: 388
Registered: 6/9/02
Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Nov 11, 2017 1:39 PM   in response to: Phillip Woon in response to: Phillip Woon
Phillip Woon wrote:
1) Delphi is OLD and yet many programmers and managers don't have the slightest idea of what Delphi can or can't do!

Isn't Java older? C++? Even C# is about 16-17 years old.

Pascal itself is was released in 1970. Java, C++ and C# are much newer languages. They also stay more modern and pioneer features. It's not like Java or C# are borrowing new features that appear first in Delphi; it's the opposite. You don't have any computer scientists working on Delphi anymore. It still has a single-pass compiler driven design and no type inference, for goodness sake. The Hindley-Milner type inference algorithm was published in 1982 or 1983. It's not exactly cutting edge.
Markus Humm

Posts: 5,062
Registered: 11/9/03
Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Nov 12, 2017 12:39 AM   in response to: Joseph Mitzen in response to: Joseph Mitzen
Am 11.11.2017 um 22:39 schrieb Joseph Mitzen:

It still has a single-pass compiler driven design

Why would that be bad?
At least it helps the Win32 compiler to have a quite good compilation
speed. Something at least some of the other environments mentioned lack
a bit.

Greetings

Markus
Joseph Mitzen

Posts: 388
Registered: 6/9/02
Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Nov 12, 2017 12:41 PM   in response to: Markus Humm in response to: Markus Humm
Markus Humm wrote:
Am 11.11.2017 um 22:39 schrieb Joseph Mitzen:

It still has a single-pass compiler driven design

Why would that be bad?

Well, two questions to ask: first, do you know of any other mainstream language that uses a single-pass compiler design today? That leads us to the second question, what are its strengths and weaknesses? The answer to that is that single-pass was designed in an era where computer memory was measured in kilobytes. It was solely an attempt to save memory, which is not a problem today when compiling software. The problem with single-pass is that in precludes entire classes of optimizations, resulting in significantly diminished performance of the final executable. C++ compilers can potentially make dozens of passes through the code when set to maximum optimization. Heck, essentially the entire Wikipedia entry on "one-pass compiler" is dedicated to its drawbacks and why you wouldn't want to use it:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-pass_compiler

It also points out that certain language constructs are precluded by single-pass and how single-pass necessitates other language constructs, such as forward declarations.

This is one of the core reasons that C++ executables tend to perform twice as well as Delphi executables on benchmarks. It's a major drawback for negligible benefit (somewhat shortened compilation times) and why many developers are unwilling to pay that price.

At least it helps the Win32 compiler to have a quite good compilation
speed.

In today's world we have continuous integration; compilation speed really isn't an issue and it's hard to come up with a scenario where it's worth the massive performance hit. And in those few scenarios where compilation speed is much more important than performance, you can drop the compilation time down to zero by using Ruby or Python instead.
Markus Humm

Posts: 5,062
Registered: 11/9/03
Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Nov 13, 2017 1:52 PM   in response to: Joseph Mitzen in response to: Joseph Mitzen
Am 12.11.2017 um 21:41 schrieb Joseph Mitzen:
Markus Humm wrote:
Am 11.11.2017 um 22:39 schrieb Joseph Mitzen:

It still has a single-pass compiler driven design

Why would that be bad?

Well, two questions to ask: first, do you know of any other > mainstream language that uses a single-pass compiler design today?
That leads us to the second question, what are its strengths and weaknesses?
The answer to that is that single-pass was designed in an era> where computer memory was measured in kilobytes. It was solely an
attempt to save memory, > which is not a problem today when compiling
software.

Wrong. It still mis sometimes. I just tried to compile a demo for an
mobile platform and the compiler gave up telling me "out of memory".
The Win32 compiler compiled the same demo for Win32 on the same machine
without any issues.

The problem with single-pass is that in precludes entire classes of optimizations, resulting in
significantly diminished performance of the final executable. C++ compilers can potentially
make dozens of passes through the code when set to maximum optimization.

Ok, that's a point. But:

1. Delphi is no longer a true single pass compiler
2. compilation speed of the other compilers is most of the time worse,
so it seems that saving memory is not the only benefit of a signle
pass compiler ;-) There are even cartoons about what delelopers do
while waiting on C/C++ compilation... (sorry, I don't have the URL at
hand)

Heck, essentially the entire Wikipedia entry on "one-pass compiler" is dedicated to its drawbacks and why you wouldn't want to use it:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-pass_compiler

It also points out that certain language constructs are precluded by single-pass and how single-pass
necessitates other language constructs, such as forward declarations.

Be honest: how often do you need to use the forward directive in Delphi?
If I need them about twice a year (full of programming in Delphi) it's
much in my case. So this is not a big problem in my eyes.


This is one of the core reasons that C++ executables tend to perform twice as well as Delphi executables
on benchmarks. It's a major drawback for negligible benefit (somewhat shortened compilation times) and> why many developers are unwilling to pay that price.

That might be true for some apps, but there are quite a few app
categories which are not CPU bound. And other things are harder in C++
as the language design allows imho for more "unreadable" constructs than
in many other languages available.



At least it helps the Win32 compiler to have a quite good compilation
speed.

In today's world we have continuous integration; compilation speed really isn't an> issue and it's hard to come up with a scenario where it's worth the
massive performance hit.> And in those few scenarios where compilation
speed is > much more important than performance,
you can drop the compilation time down to zero by using Ruby or Python instead.

So for trying out something you always go throught he complete continous
integration chain and maybe affect other developers by doing so?

While I value speed of the resulting executables it just depends on the
kind of project whether it's really so beneficial and I don't have CI as
I'm usually working alone on projects so far. I only need to integrate
with myself and I don't need another machine just for building the
software developed.

Greetings

Markus
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Nov 14, 2017 12:18 AM   in response to: Joseph Mitzen in response to: Joseph Mitzen
Joseph Mitzen wrote:

Well, two questions to ask: first, do you know of any other
mainstream language that uses a single-pass compiler design today?

Well, different language design. <shrug>

How does that matter? The Delphi compiler seems to get by very well,
and remains terribly fast, so yes, that is an andvantage.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"I agree with the reforms, but I want nothing to change"
-- Ion Luca Caragiale, Romanian playwriter, 1880
Joseph Mitzen

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Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Nov 11, 2017 1:27 PM   in response to: Clement Doss in response to: Clement Doss
Clement, that's an excellent summation of the problems facing Delphi. The problem is that Idera's only strategy appears to be to find new ways to get the existing customer base pay more (raising prices every year, creating new "platinum" subscription tier, etc.).

Regarding #1, they don't want to modernize the language for fear of turning off the old-timers using it to maintain legacy code.

Regarding #2, few users means few people putting out blogs and articles with modern examples. Even that new Academy thing they're doing is really a private money-making venture by Marco Cantu and a few others. Heck, anytime EMBT does anything they look at ways of immediately monetizing it rather than considering it an investment to grow the user base or improve customer satisfaction.

Regarding #3, open source dominates education now. As John "Maddog" Hall puts it, it lets you learn three ways - first you learn the language. Then you can examine the source code of the compiler/interpreter and learn how it works. Third, you can actually contribute to the project and learn about working in development teams. Another problem today is that many kids run Macs or use Linux and Delphi is still stuck on Windows. One more problem with the education market is although it probably shouldn't be this way, most schools and universities don't want to teach languages that aren't in demand in industry (as you can see, a lot of Delphi's problems are interlocking).

Regarding #4, you're absolutely right - they're living in a 1990's world pre open-source revolution. The problem is that without new users coming in, lowering prices will result in lower revenue, at least in the short term. And as you can observe, points 1-3 may preclude new users even at lower prices so they may feel lowering prices is suicidal. As is they probably have to keep raising prices every year to make up for the users who leave and aren't replaced. At least for targeting the Windows desktop, Delphi was finished when Microsoft began offering Visual Studio for free up to five copies for companies making < $1 million dollars a year. That demographic probably covers almost every person or company still using Delphi. I'll never forget that the first message put out after Visual Studio Community Edition was announced that November was a reminder to upgrade now because prices were rising at the start of the new year!

Regarding #5, they have no answer to this so they often try to deny it (see Marco Cantu and Rudy). For those who use it professionally the lack of jobs is a huge disincentive. For those who use it personally, the price is a huge disincentive. I live in a densely populated state right across the water from New York City. This means that when searching on job sites even a modest distance radius covers New York City, Wall Street, my state capital, our biggest city, and the headquarters of several national companies, two international pharmaceutical giants, the U.S. headquarters of Panasonic, etc. Right now there isn't a single Delphi developer job listed within 200 miles of me on the biggest U.S. tech job site other than a 4+ month contract for a technical writer to document a piece of Delphi code (it stresses your knowledge of Delphi doesn't have to be current so it must be old code) and a job with Melissa and Doug that's been open for 3 months now. The Melissa and Doug company have their own in-house ERP written in Delphi 7 and it seems they're looking for someone to maintain it - again (they've advertised here before). Even that's over 100 miles from me in another state and would be career suicide even for a Delphi developer. This all ties in with #3 - why would a young programmer want to learn a "sunset technology" they can't find employment in?

There's another one I'd add that is caused by several of the others: a very small ecosystem. This is true for books, courses, blogs, libraries, etc. but let's concentrate on libraries. A study among developers found that the number one factor developers gave for choosing to use a programming language - by far - was number of available libraries, particularly open source libraries. Here Delphi falls down sharply. Part of it is naturally caused by lack of users, but the culture of the Delphi community itself doesn't seem to evolved past the 1990s to embrace open source. And of course the high price might be encouraging people to try to find ways to pay for their copy of Delphi.

The largest repository of Delphi code is torry.net, where we can see that there are "10,506 products", which we're assuming to mean components (it also offers applications and some other things). One can scroll through the offerings to observe that most of it is either of the Delphi 5-7 era or simply shareware/trials of commercial software, meaning the number of libraries users can download and use is far smaller. If you scroll through the listing of the last 30 days of added components or the month previous, you can see that very few files are added and one is lucky to find one new, open source component in a month's time.

Now let's look at modulecounts.com Here we can see the .NET ecosystem offering over 90K free, open source libraries! Java is over 200K! Most of the repositories listed add a few open source libraries per day while Torry is lucky to add one per month. Worse, major languages are adding tens of libraries per day. To illustrate, I complained about this here in November 2012 after having written a review/survey of development tools for a startup looking to choose a software stack. I noted that Delphi had 10K+ libraries available while Python had 18K. Five years later, Delphi is still at less than 11K while Python is now at 120K! Even worse, analyzing the raw data, Python added 22 libraries per day for 2012. This year it's 90 so far! Developers aren't going to choose an expensive language where they have to write everything themselves, slowing them down compared to competitors who can simply install some open source libraries from a list of 90K+. They're also not going to pay hundreds of dollars for libraries others are getting for free. They're going to choose a language offering them 90K+ open source libraries that's adding 90 libraries per day like C# or Python.

The challenges facing Delphi are enormous, interlinked and intrinsic. There is no sign that Idera has a plan for solving any of them. It's potentially possible to do so, but it would involve creativity and boldness as well as risk, things Idera does not seem to be known for.
Markus Humm

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Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Nov 12, 2017 12:53 AM   in response to: Joseph Mitzen in response to: Joseph Mitzen
Am 11.11.2017 um 22:27 schrieb Joseph Mitzen:
Clement, that's an excellent summation of the problems facing Delphi. The problem is that Idera's only strategy appears to be to find new ways to get the existing customer base pay more (raising prices every year, creating new "platinum" subscription tier, etc.).

Regarding #1, they don't want to modernize the language for fear of turning off the old-timers using it to maintain legacy code.

Wrong. They wouldn't have introduced enerics an anonymous methods then
and they wouldn't write such things like nullable types on their roadmap.

While you might want them to deliver more in a quicker fashion is
something else, but putting it that axiomatic doesn't make it true.

Then you can examine the source code of the compiler/interpreter and learn how it works.

Why should a beginner want to do this? He most likely wants to build his
own applications and not his own compiler/interpreter as his first projects.

There's another one I'd add that is caused by several of the others: a very small ecosystem.
This is true for books, courses, blogs, libraries, etc.

While you're true in some regards you must admit, that the number of
books (even if most are self published - but I know one case where one
reviwer of such a self publiched book had been asked by a publishing
house if he doesn't want to write a Delphi book. He declined that offer,
because he thought that there are enough books for the audience to be
targeted by the publishing house. The book should have been a book
targetet rather at beginners, while he thought that there is need for
more books for medium to advanced level Delphi developers. The book he
reviewed though was such a more beginners oriented book)

Me and some colleagues from IT were on one of the EMBT roadshows this
spring and the colleagues were positively surprised about the number of
other attendees at that roadshow.

So I do agree with some of your statements, but some are simplky too
"black and white" kind and some are simply wrong or neglect newer
developments on the Delphi side.

Greetings

Markus
Joseph Mitzen

Posts: 388
Registered: 6/9/02
Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Nov 12, 2017 5:19 PM   in response to: Markus Humm in response to: Markus Humm
Markus Humm wrote:

Regarding #1, they don't want to modernize the language for fear of turning off the old-timers using it to maintain legacy code.

Wrong. They wouldn't have introduced enerics an anonymous methods

That was done by Barry Kelly, who did want to modernize the language. Barry himself eventually left the company and wrote on his blog that he had taken the language as far as he could go without breaking compatibility.

Barry:
But more than anything else, I'd fallen out of love with Delphi, and could no longer motivate myself to try and make it better - the gap I'd try to bridge would be a gap too far for the market to bear.

On another note, would you be able to elaborate as to the "gap" you were trying to fill and can you explain why you feel that the market would not be able to bear it?

Barry:

...by gap, I mean the distance between the established product of Delphi, and a language I'd be happy and proud to continue working on.

It's a fact that Delphi has been around for long enough that changing it significantly isn't really an option. You have to give people a path forward with their existing codebase. And it's not just customers; the product itself has lots of code doing a lot of stuff,
and if the language is too different, the result would be an IDE and compiler and a few basic libraries, and that's it. Not a great business move.

Delphi is very procedural. It grew out of Pascal, a language designed in an era when memory was very expensive. So most of its core runtime is based around mutation and destructive updates.

But the longer I've been coding, the greater and greater benefit I see to more functional approaches - which pretty much require garbage collection - and persistent data structures like you see in Clojure.

I've also lost some of the object orientation religion I first picked up when I was in my teenage bedroom, figuring out how virtual method calls worked in my copy of Turbo Pascal 6. I remember the epiphanies of those days. But these days, I see the
bureaucracy and busywork involved in creating class hierarchies, how it can fool you into thinking you're doing productive work when you're filling out various idioms and "patterns". Some problems - like GUI widgets - work really really well with OO. But
others work far better with the functional approach, where the set of data structures is closed but the set of methods is open. Shoehorning these into OO results in ugly architectures with extra indirections.

Suffice it to say, if I was creating a language I was truly in love with, it would look quite different to Delphi

So there's Barry saying they couldn't do more than what he did without a break in compatibility. Even Nick Hodges, back in the CodeGear days, wrote about all the old cruft lying around in Delphi. He postulated having a "legacy" mode and a "modern" mode for Delphi, with the "modern" mode used for new code that could enable new language features and changes without having to preserve backwards compatibility. IMHO he was on to something back then and I'm sad the Embarcadero acquisition came before CodeGear could implement something like this. Imagine a Delphi that worked in legacy mode and a mode with Oxygene's features!

As for nullable types being "on the roadmap" - who knows what we'll see... or why we'll see it. There's no more chief scientist and there's no sense that anyone there has a big picture for developing a language (or any language design experience at all for that matter).

Look at how the pitchforks and torches came out when Marco released a white paper years ago about memory management on the desktop and the resistance to eliminating ANSI strings. This is not a community that tends to embrace change by definition.

Then you can examine the source code of the compiler/interpreter and learn how it works.

Why should a beginner want to do this? He most likely wants to build his
own applications and not his own compiler/interpreter as his first projects

I'm talking about students. First course, they learn to program using an open source compiler or interpreter. Next semester, they can look "under the hood" of the compiler by examining its source code and learning how it works. Finally, in a subsequent course they can learn about software development by contributing code to a project and learn about cooperation and coordination, documentation, unit testing, code review, etc. Heck, at one point the Python project made a 15-year-old the coordinator for a Python version release! The Linux kernel has also had a 15-year-old contributor, and there's been a 14-year-old Linux distro developer. I believe in Britain now kids are going to be required to learn three programming languages before they graduate high school and contribute to an open source project.

As legendary programmer and educator John "Maddog" Hall has stated in many talks:

Maddog makes some great points about the use of Free Software (which is his preferred term) for training.

Free software can be given to the students, and so there is no economic barrier to learning or to continued use outside of or after school.

Much of the technologies that drive the Internet and the Web are based on Free Software, and so teaching these programs would be much more advantageous to students.

Free software teaches you three times: once when you use the code, once when you investigate what it does and how it does it, and once when you improve it to make it better (particularly for the older students).

Free software introduces students into the world of collaborative programming.

Free software allows students to create their own computer labs (a la LTSP).

Free software allows students to investigate everything from embedded systems to supercomputers.

There's simply no advantage to closed source software in education.

Me and some colleagues from IT were on one of the EMBT roadshows this
spring and the colleagues were positively surprised about the number of
other attendees at that roadshow.

Fair enough, but when we can get 800+ Delphi developers in person at one conference let me know. :-) Delphi was created in America but there are so few Delphi developers here there hasn't been a physical conference in America for a decade or longer.


So I do agree with some of your statements, but some are simplky too
"black and white" kind and some are simply wrong or neglect newer
developments on the Delphi side.

I appreciate your insights and counterpoints!
Matthew Jones

Posts: 319
Registered: 1/25/98
Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Nov 13, 2017 8:40 AM   in response to: Joseph Mitzen in response to: Joseph Mitzen
Joseph Mitzen wrote:

about memory management on the desktop and the resistance to eliminating ANSI strings. This is not a community that tends to embrace change by definition

You are mis-characterising the resistance. Change has been welcomed a lot over the years. But when it is breaking change, and specifically breaking existing code with no good way to use it in the new way too, that's when people with working and proven code don't like it.
Find a way to have the same code base work with both memory managers. Find a way to make different string types work (like have another unit needed in uses) and it is fine. But say "you will have to throw away your existing code and start over" and you lose the benefits.
Markus Humm

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Registered: 11/9/03
Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Nov 13, 2017 1:59 PM   in response to: Matthew Jones in response to: Matthew Jones
Am 13.11.2017 um 17:40 schrieb Matthew Jones:
Joseph Mitzen wrote:

about memory management on the desktop and the resistance to eliminating ANSI strings. This is not a community that tends to embrace change by definition

You are mis-characterising the resistance. Change has been welcomed a lot over the years. But when it is breaking change, and specifically breaking existing code with no good way to use it in the new way too, that's when people with working and proven code don't like it.
Find a way to have the same code base work with both memory managers. Find a way to make different string types work (like have another unit needed in uses) and it is fine. But say "you will have to throw away your existing code and start over" and you lose the benefits.

+1 and finally they sort of found a way in my eyes by allowing some oth
the string types on mobile as well. In my eyes it's not required to
provide support for "real" ANSI strings or short strings on mobile, but
some 8 bit string can be beneficial in some cases.

I would have welcomed more if they'd stick to the 1-based strings
instead of creating that mess around zero based strings, as back then
quite a lot of languages basing their strings on 1 were named as well,
so their statement that other languages mostly use 0-based strings
doesn't really hit. And these 1-based languages were not all exotes! SQL
is surely not exotic... ;-)

I also value Joseph's contributions to the discussion, but it sometimes
would be more usefull if not written in sich a black and white manner,
as this is seldom 100% true.

Greetings

Markus
Joseph Mitzen

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Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Nov 13, 2017 4:13 PM   in response to: Matthew Jones in response to: Matthew Jones
Matthew Jones wrote:
Joseph Mitzen wrote:

about memory management on the desktop and the resistance to eliminating ANSI strings. This is not a community that tends to embrace change by definition

You are mis-characterising the resistance. Change has been welcomed a lot over the years. But when it is breaking change

Sometimes things are broken and you need to fix them. Sometimes mistakes are made and they need to be corrected. If breaking change was inherently bad BASIC would still have line numbers.

and specifically breaking existing code with no good way to use it in the new way too, that's when people with working and proven code don't like it.
Find a way to have the same code base work with both memory managers.

That's not a good idea. As the Python people put it, "There should be one - and preferably only one - obvious way in which to do it." Having multiple ways to do the same thing just creates complexity and confusion (see C++, which has every way to do everything). You can also see Java, which seems to deprecate but never remove anything.

Find a way to make different string types work (like have another unit needed in uses) and it is fine.

There shouldn't be all those string types. Other languages don't offer 4, 5, 6 string types. Python tried offering two string types when it moved to Unicode in 2000 and it was such a mess, with so many errors caused by implicit conversions, that they chose to break backwards compatibility in 2008 to give the language one string type. Embarcadero developers, not learning that lesson, decided four types (not counting char, pchar, and who knows what else) was a good idea. Now we've got all the same string problems but no one wants it fixed.

But say "you will have to throw away your existing code and start over" and you lose the benefits.

It's called technical debt. It's just a fact of life. Things change and you need to refactor old code if you're going to port it to new versions of a language. We don't live in a magical world in which you get to have all the benefits without the costs. Not paying that debt makes the language grow increasingly bloated, convoluted, complex and hard for EMBT to maintain over time. As is, there are many nice features or fixes we can't have because of backwards compatibility. Allan Bauer has told Mason Wheeler at times that everything from the 256-character limit on strings in the IDE to typeinfo not being available on custom numbered enums are caused by needing to maintain compatibility with old code in the code base.

If you don't want to have new features, freeze your old code on a certain version of Delphi. But if the language can't grow it becomes less and less attractive to potential new users and the user base shrinks.
Matthew Jones

Posts: 319
Registered: 1/25/98
Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Nov 14, 2017 1:02 AM   in response to: Joseph Mitzen in response to: Joseph Mitzen
Joseph Mitzen wrote:

It's called technical debt

I disagree with a lot of your characterisations again here, but have to pick up on this one. The compiler changing the way things work for other platforms is never technical debt. If I have code that was solid and working for 15 years, and then someone decideds that .Free is no longer needed, it is not technical debt.

Yes, things might change, but that change has to be managed well by the compiler vendor, otherwise you just break things and that means that the good solid code cannot be brought along. And as has been discussed many times, when you have to re-work everything to move to a new platform, you might as well look around.

It is also worth mentioning that one version, XE2 was it?, had full support for the existing code base. I made a good proof of concept application for the iPad with it using my existing desktop code. And then they took that away and said my existing code would never work as-is. Delphi is used by the smaller shops as a very efficient and effective tool. When you tell those developers that they cannot use the existing proven code but must modify it in extreme ways (conditional compiles or whatever) or start anew, you are taking away that advantage.

I do want new features. I just want them to work well, and not break my existing code. Different string types? Who cares, solve the real problems.
Markus Humm

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Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Nov 14, 2017 9:42 AM   in response to: Joseph Mitzen in response to: Joseph Mitzen
Am 14.11.2017 um 01:13 schrieb Joseph Mitzen:
Matthew Jones wrote:
Joseph Mitzen wrote:

That's not a good idea. As the Python people put it, "There should be one - and preferably only one - obvious way in which to do it."
Having multiple ways to do the same thing just creates complexity and confusion (see C++, which has every way to do everything).

That statement is just wrong, as it is true only if doing that thing in
that one way provided covers all cases. If that can be satisfied you're
right, otherwise you're wrong.

Yes, one should avoid to have multiple solutions for the same thing if
they exist just because different xdevelopers did it all their way not
knowing from each other or ignoring each other, but if the different
solutions also cover more than the common aspect they all cover and that
other parts covered by them cannot be easily done with the other
existing solutions they have their very right to exist!

It should be better put this way: it should be clear which of the
offered solutions to use in which situation.


Find a way to make different string types work (like have another unit needed in uses) and it is fine.

There shouldn't be all those string types. Other languages don't offer 4, 5, 6 string types.
Python tried offering two string types when it moved to Unicode in 2000 and it was such a mess,
with so many errors caused by implicit conversions, that they chose to break backwards compatibility
in 2008 to give the language one string type. Embarcadero developers, not learning that lesson,
decided four types (not counting char, pchar, and who knows what else) was a good idea.
Now we've got all the same string problems but no one wants it fixed.

The bigger string issues come from zero based strings. Yes, having a
smaller number of those type would be fine, but that would have required
that other developers of other languages/api had learned how to build
good strings way earlier ;-) Yes, PChar is a terrible string type.

But hwo said, that conversions need to be implicit in such a situation?
Make type casts a requirement and the problem will solve itsself I guess.

It's called technical debt. It's just a fact of life. Things change and you need
to refactor old code if you're going to port it to new versions of a language> We don't live in a magical world in which you get to have all the
benefits without the costs.

R>eally? Something slightly provokind: my 50 year old hammer still
drives in nails just fine ;-)

=> things should be written in such a way from the start on that they
minimize the need for further change as much as possible.

If you don't want to have new features, freeze your old code on a certain version of Delphi. > But if the language can't grow it becomes less and less attractive to
potential new users and the user base shrinks.

Oh I do want to have new features, but where possible without breaking
my stuff as this creates more work that I already have.

Greetings

Markus
Dalija Prasnikar

Posts: 2,324
Registered: 11/9/99
Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Nov 14, 2017 4:48 AM   in response to: Matthew Jones in response to: Matthew Jones
Matthew Jones wrote:
Joseph Mitzen wrote:

about memory management on the desktop and the resistance to eliminating ANSI strings. This is not a community that tends to embrace change by definition

You are mis-characterising the resistance. Change has been welcomed a lot over the years. But when it is breaking change, and specifically breaking existing code with no good way to use it in the new way too, that's when people with working and proven code don't like it.
Find a way to have the same code base work with both memory managers. Find a way to make different string types work (like have another unit needed in uses) and it is fine. But say "you will have to throw away your existing code and start over" and you lose the benefits.

Just to set the record straight.

Some features can coexist and don't get in a way of other
features and improvements, but some features are exclusive.

Having multiple string types side by side is not an issue.

Having same code base working under different memory management
systems is huge issue.

Memory management systems are not plugable feature. While you can have
code that compiles and works under both, such code actually works under
lowest common denominator. In case of manual memory management and
ARC - it basically must comply with manual memory management rules.

In other words, you pay the price of ARC but you don't get to use its benefits.

--
Dalija Prasnikar
Embarcadero MVP
https://dalija.prasnikar.info/
Delphi Memory Management for Classic and ARC Compilers
https://dalija.prasnikar.info/delphimm/
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Nov 14, 2017 6:16 AM   in response to: Dalija Prasnikar in response to: Dalija Prasnikar
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:

Matthew Jones wrote:
Joseph Mitzen wrote:

about memory management on the desktop and the resistance to
eliminating ANSI strings. This is not a community that tends to
embrace change by definition

You are mis-characterising the resistance. Change has been welcomed
a lot over the years. But when it is breaking change, and
specifically breaking existing code with no good way to use it in
the new way too, that's when people with working and proven code
don't like it. Find a way to have the same code base work with
both memory managers. Find a way to make different string types
work (like have another unit needed in uses) and it is fine. But
say "you will have to throw away your existing code and start over"
and you lose the benefits.

Just to set the record straight.

Some features can coexist and don't get in a way of other
features and improvements, but some features are exclusive.

Having multiple string types side by side is not an issue.

Having same code base working under different memory management
systems is huge issue.

Memory management systems are not plugable feature. While you can have
code that compiles and works under both, such code actually works
under lowest common denominator. In case of manual memory management
and ARC - it basically must comply with manual memory management
rules.

Hmmm... When Apple didn't use ARC yet, they used manual memory
management, but using refcounting. So the new ARC and the old manual
refcounting memory management worked nicely side by side. So the above
is not exactly true. You can have both side by side, but both must use
a similar principle.

And the rules for manual memory management with refcounting were
explained terribly well in the Apple docs. It was easy to learn and you
had to be really stupid to make mistakes. Also note that they had
autorelease pools for certain objects. That was a well though out, but
manual memory management system, compatible with the later introduced
ARC.
--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Everyone likes to say Hitler did this and Hitler did that. But
the truth is Hitler did very little. He was a world class
asshole, but the evil actually done, from the death camps to
World War Two, was all done by citizens who were afraid to
question if what they were told by their government was the
truth or not, and who because they did not want to admit to
themselves that they were afraid to question the government,
refused to see the truth behind the Reichstag Fire, refused to
see the invasion by Poland was a staged fake, and followed
Hitler into national disaster."
-- Michael Rivero
Dalija Prasnikar

Posts: 2,324
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Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Nov 14, 2017 6:21 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB, MVP) wrote:
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:

Matthew Jones wrote:
Joseph Mitzen wrote:

about memory management on the desktop and the resistance to
eliminating ANSI strings. This is not a community that tends to
embrace change by definition

You are mis-characterising the resistance. Change has been welcomed
a lot over the years. But when it is breaking change, and
specifically breaking existing code with no good way to use it in
the new way too, that's when people with working and proven code
don't like it. Find a way to have the same code base work with
both memory managers. Find a way to make different string types
work (like have another unit needed in uses) and it is fine. But
say "you will have to throw away your existing code and start over"
and you lose the benefits.

Just to set the record straight.

Some features can coexist and don't get in a way of other
features and improvements, but some features are exclusive.

Having multiple string types side by side is not an issue.

Having same code base working under different memory management
systems is huge issue.

Memory management systems are not plugable feature. While you can have
code that compiles and works under both, such code actually works
under lowest common denominator. In case of manual memory management
and ARC - it basically must comply with manual memory management
rules.

Hmmm... When Apple didn't use ARC yet, they used manual memory
management, but using refcounting. So the new ARC and the old manual
refcounting memory management worked nicely side by side. So the above
is not exactly true. You can have both side by side, but both must use
a similar principle.

And the rules for manual memory management with refcounting were
explained terribly well in the Apple docs. It was easy to learn and you
had to be really stupid to make mistakes. Also note that they had
autorelease pools for certain objects. That was a well though out, but
manual memory management system, compatible with the later introduced
ARC.

Well, Apple had manual reference counting. That is vastly different from manual
memory management in Delphi.

So in Apple's case mixing two systems works because in the background it
is really just single system. The only difference is who writes reference counting
code - compiler or developer.

--
Dalija Prasnikar
Embarcadero MVP
https://dalija.prasnikar.info/
Delphi Memory Management for Classic and ARC Compilers
https://dalija.prasnikar.info/delphimm/
Rudy Velthuis (...


Posts: 7,684
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Nov 15, 2017 11:21 PM   in response to: Dalija Prasnikar in response to: Dalija Prasnikar
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:

Well, Apple had manual reference counting. That is vastly different
from manual memory management in Delphi.

Actually no. It is different, sure, but not vastly. The same principles
apply. And these principles were laid out and explained very well in
the Apple docs.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Don't join the book burners."
-- Dwight D. Eisenhower
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Nov 16, 2017 5:23 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB, MVP) wrote:

Dalija Prasnikar wrote:

Well, Apple had manual reference counting. That is vastly different
from manual memory management in Delphi.

Actually no. It is different, sure, but not vastly. The same
principles apply. And these principles were laid out and explained
very well in the Apple docs.

Actually, similar docs would help people understand Delphi's memory
management principles too. You probably think they should rather buy
your book (<g>), but a little more help from Embarcadero would not be
bad either.
--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"I don't care to belong to a club that accepts people like me as
members." -- Groucho Marx
Yogi Yang

Posts: 57
Registered: 12/23/06
Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Nov 28, 2017 9:10 PM   in response to: Matthew Jones in response to: Matthew Jones
Matthew Jones wrote:

You are mis-characterising the resistance. Change has been welcomed a lot over the years. But when it is breaking change, and specifically breaking existing code with no good way to use it in the new way too, that's when people with working and proven code don't like it.
Find a way to have the same code base work with both memory managers. Find a way to make different string types work (like have another unit needed in uses) and it is fine. But say "you will have to throw away your existing code and start over" and you lose the benefits.

Sorry to chime in between but if a new language feature is breaking our existing code just don;t upgrade to the new version.

There are many European companies which have followed this axiom of not upgrading beyond Delphi 7.

Check out sf.net and you will find plethora of enterprise software that are open source and are still being build and maintained in D7.
Alexandre Machado

Posts: 14
Registered: 5/16/15
Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Nov 29, 2017 12:52 PM   in response to: Yogi Yang in response to: Yogi Yang
There are many European companies which have followed this axiom of not upgrading beyond Delphi 7.

Please explain me how this is good for Embarcadero - the vendor - or for Delphi and its community?
Markus Humm

Posts: 5,062
Registered: 11/9/03
Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Nov 30, 2017 9:31 AM   in response to: Alexandre Machado in response to: Alexandre Machado
Am 29.11.2017 um 21:52 schrieb Alexandre Machado:
There are many European companies which have followed this axiom of not upgrading beyond Delphi 7.

Please explain me how this is good for Embarcadero - the vendor - or for Delphi and its community?

Nobody said it was good.
And upgrading to D2007 should bring a few productivity benefits (like
rename refactoring and method extraction refactoring in the IDE) while
still being pre unicode and thus a switch would be less painfull.

Can be done by buying the newest version, as it contains licences for
older ones (if the right edition is bought).

Greetings

Markus
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Dec 2, 2017 6:51 AM   in response to: Alexandre Machado in response to: Alexandre Machado
Alexandre Machado wrote:

There are many European companies which have followed this axiom of
not upgrading beyond Delphi 7.

Please explain me how this is good for Embarcadero - the vendor - or
for Delphi and its community?

It would not be good, but I have severe doubts that it is true. Many
have upgraded after all.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Do not mind anything that anyone tells you about anyone else.
Judge everyone and everything for yourself."
-- Henry James
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Dec 2, 2017 6:50 AM   in response to: Yogi Yang in response to: Yogi Yang
Yogi Yang wrote:

Check out sf.net and you will find plethora of enterprise software
that are open source and are still being build and maintained in D7.

Oh? I can't find too many. And some do still support D7 but are also
available for Tokyo or Berlin. The difference between D7 and current
versions is simply too big.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"From the moment I picked your book up until I laid it down I
was convulsed with laughter. Some day I intend reading it."
-- Groucho Marx (1895-1977)
Chad Hower

Posts: 575
Registered: 3/2/07
Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Dec 3, 2017 2:36 PM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
On 12/2/2017 10:50 AM, Rudy Velthuis (TeamB, MVP) wrote:
Oh? I can't find too many. And some do still support D7 but are also
available for Tokyo or Berlin. The difference between D7 and current
versions is simply too big.

3P comps that are now dead or were never ported to Unicode are actually
the bigger obstacle. TurboPower (some were open sourced I think?),
Shoreline, many more... etc....
Chad Hower

Posts: 575
Registered: 3/2/07
Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Dec 3, 2017 2:37 PM   in response to: Chad Hower in response to: Chad Hower
On 12/3/2017 6:36 PM, Chad Hower wrote:
On 12/2/2017 10:50 AM, Rudy Velthuis (TeamB, MVP) wrote:
Oh? I can't find too many. And some do still support D7 but are also
available for Tokyo or Berlin. The difference between D7 and current
versions is simply too big.

3P comps that are now dead or were never ported to Unicode are actually
the bigger obstacle. TurboPower (some were open sourced I think?),
Shoreline, many more... etc....

BDE, Paradox..... there are so many old comps and libs....
Dan Barclay

Posts: 883
Registered: 11/9/03
Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Dec 3, 2017 8:23 PM   in response to: Chad Hower in response to: Chad Hower
Chad Hower wrote:
On 12/3/2017 6:36 PM, Chad Hower wrote:
On 12/2/2017 10:50 AM, Rudy Velthuis (TeamB, MVP) wrote:
Oh? I can't find too many. And some do still support D7 but are also
available for Tokyo or Berlin. The difference between D7 and current
versions is simply too big.

3P comps that are now dead or were never ported to Unicode are actually
the bigger obstacle. TurboPower (some were open sourced I think?),
Shoreline, many more... etc....

BDE, Paradox..... there are so many old comps and libs....

A tendency of the Cool Kids is to consider "Legacy" a four letter word. It's not just in this context/community, it's just they way it is. <shrug>.

They don't consider (or just don't care?) that legacy systems hung around long enough to become legacy because of their value. In the case of components and libraries, they are (were) part of an ecosystem that increased value of the core itself. Yea, they affect the Cool Kids even if they don't recognize it.

Dan
Markus Humm

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Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Dec 4, 2017 1:02 PM   in response to: Chad Hower in response to: Chad Hower
Am 03.12.2017 um 23:37 schrieb Chad Hower:
On 12/3/2017 6:36 PM, Chad Hower wrote:
On 12/2/2017 10:50 AM, Rudy Velthuis (TeamB, MVP) wrote:
Oh? I can't find too many. And some do still support D7 but are also
available for Tokyo or Berlin. The difference between D7 and current
versions is simply too big.

3P comps that are now dead or were never ported to Unicode are actually
the bigger obstacle. TurboPower (some were open sourced I think?),
Shoreline, many more... etc....

BDE, Paradox..... there are so many old comps and libs....

Hello,

at least a BDE installer was provided for quite some time still, if not
even today. Might not be in the product itsself any longer but then it
might be under registered user downloads in EDN.

Some Turbo Power things got open sourced and for some EMBT pays a
maintainer and some of them are even in getIt Package manager.

Do yourself a favour and download a current Delphi "trial" version so
you should be able to use GetIt as well.

Greetings

Markus
Yogi Yang

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Registered: 12/23/06
Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Dec 11, 2017 12:35 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB, MVP) wrote:
Yogi Yang wrote:

Check out sf.net and you will find plethora of enterprise software
that are open source and are still being build and maintained in D7.

Oh? I can't find too many. And some do still support D7 but are also
available for Tokyo or Berlin. The difference between D7 and current
versions is simply too big.

Just to wet your appetite:
https://sourceforge.net/projects/myerp/files/myerp/Vers0.3.4/

https://sourceforge.net/projects/bitfarm-archiv/?source=directory

https://sourceforge.net/projects/gogestionale/files/Gestionale%20Open%2010.00.00/

https://sourceforge.net/projects/clientserverapp/?source=directory

Edited by: Yogi Yang on Dec 11, 2017 12:36 AM
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language [Edit]
Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this thread Reply
  Posted: Dec 12, 2017 4:36 AM   in response to: Yogi Yang in response to: Yogi Yang
Yogi Yang wrote:

Check out sf.net and you will find plethora of enterprise software
that are open source and are still being build and maintained in
D7.

Oh? I can't find too many. And some do still support D7 but are also
available for Tokyo or Berlin. The difference between D7 and current
versions is simply too big.

Just to wet your appetite:
https://sourceforge.net/projects/myerp/files/myerp/Vers0.3.4/

That contains .lpi and .lfm files, so it is for Lazarus, not for Delphi
7. It does not contain any .dpr or .dfm files.

https://sourceforge.net/projects/gogestionale/files/Gestionale%20Open%2010.00.00/

My appetite is not whetted yet. Three projects are not "a plethora" and
what makes you think they are for D7?

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"We don't like their sound, and guitar music is on the way out."
-- Decca Recording Co. rejecting the Beatles, 1962
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Nov 14, 2017 12:51 AM   in response to: Joseph Mitzen in response to: Joseph Mitzen
Joseph Mitzen wrote:

Markus Humm wrote:

Regarding #1, they don't want to modernize the language for fear
of turning off the old-timers using it to maintain legacy code.

Wrong. They wouldn't have introduced enerics an anonymous methods

That was done by Barry Kelly, who did want to modernize the language.

Barry Kelly and all the others only got to realize what was deemed
necessary and viable by TPTB, so they must have given the green light.
Such changes are not lone wolf decisions. The same for all the other
changes and new features. These could not just be realized by a single
programmer who would like to see a feature, that was always a team and
management decision.

And there has been talk about generics since the start of this century
(this was discussed extensively with TeamB, these days). Same about
other language features. But changes to the language have not been made
lightheartedly, and that is a Good Thing(tm). It makes no sense to
(senselessly) copy everything other languages have.

Note that for generics to work, the inlining mechanism had to be there
first (and some changes in code generation, etc.). And for anonmeths
too. So one change builds upon other changes. You can't just force
features without having a certain infrastructure in place that enables
them.

For instance, you can't have classes with operator overloading (which
is possible in the newer compilers) without something like a GC or ARC.
etc.etc.
--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Basically, I no longer work for anything but the sensation I
have while working."
-- Albert Giacometti (sculptor)
Joseph Mitzen

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Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Nov 10, 2017 7:47 PM   in response to: Luigi Sandon in response to: Luigi Sandon
Luigi Sandon wrote:
Since the majority of people use say Java or C#, the majority of people

You would be surprised about how many Delphi developers switched to C#.... most of my old colleagues I started to work with in Delphi twenty years ago made that switch.

This is a painful subject for me. I remember when David Intersimone decided to conduct a poll about Delphi satisfaction. He did it by polling the first 500 people to buy the newest release of Delphi. He then basically concluded that everyone loves Delphi. I corresponded with him and pointed out that this would be like Apple polling the first 500 people to buy the new iPhone. The first purchasers are always rabid fans who camp out at stores overnight. Apple would then conclude that iPhones were perfect. Despite working as a data analyst, David then proceeded to inform me that I make lots of assumptions, etc. I tried to explain to him then that his survey methodology misses 100% of those who felt that the product didn't offer them any compelling reason to upgrade and also misses 100% of those who couldn't afford the upgrade (probably the two biggest complaints among missing users). I then observed it misses most of the market which isn't buying Delphi in the first place or left Delphi for something else and aren't getting a chance to tell you why. He then told me,

"People leave Delphi for C#; people leave C# for Delphi (?!?). That's why we just keep doing what we're doing."

That's when I really came to believe they live in their own world where outside reality doesn't matter. They're going to do what they do regardless of how customers or potential customers feel about it. Heck, the fact that none of them interact with users here shows how little value they place on what their customers are thinking.

It would be interesting to know why Delphi got that position - because lack of curly braces? Because a job in Delphi is regarded as an elephants' graveyard? Because they don't trust the product and the owner anymore?

Probably the last two combined with a perception that it's ancient technology. The funny thing is that on Reddit's Perl forum none of the posters there disputed the figure! Instead, like you, they had a very nice discussion about why they believe programmers feel that way about Perl and how likely it is to change/what they could do to change people's minds. We're going to spend all our time here denying the reality of Stack Overflow's analysis instead so we don't have to think about it. Also, since we're not a community-driven product we're powerless to do anything about it anyway.

Anyway, if this is an existing trend, it should be something someone at Embarcadero should think about....

They prefer to think they have three million users. Worse, David Millington recently claimed on another forum that "Delphi is five times as productive as Python". When asked to validate that statement (that's what happens when you post outside of a Delphi forum) he replied, "That's what our customers tell us." I'm sure those same customers, if they really exist, would smell a wheelbarrow full of horse manure and tell him it smelled like a bouquet of roses too. These people truly only see and hear how great they are - somewhat like Donald Trump. Trust me, no one is going to spend a second at Embarcadero thinking about this. Most won't believe it and the rest already know they're not getting new customers and are focused on getting more money from the existing ones.

I'm anyway surprised Java is not in the top three....
Rudy Velthuis (...


Posts: 7,684
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Nov 11, 2017 1:19 AM   in response to: Joseph Mitzen in response to: Joseph Mitzen
Joseph Mitzen wrote:

Luigi Sandon wrote:
Since the majority of people use say Java or C#, the majority of
people

You would be surprised about how many Delphi developers switched to
C#.... most of my old colleagues I started to work with in Delphi
twenty years ago made that switch.

This is a painful subject for me. I remember when David Intersimone
decided to conduct a poll about Delphi satisfaction. He did it by
polling the first 500 people to buy the newest release of Delphi. He
then basically concluded that everyone loves Delphi. I corresponded
with him and pointed out that this would be like Apple polling the
first 500 people to buy the new iPhone. The first purchasers are
always rabid fans who camp out at stores overnight. Apple would then
conclude that iPhones were perfect. De spite working as a data
analyst, David then proceeded to inform me that I make lots of
assumptions, etc. I tried to explain to him then that his survey
methodology misses 100% of those who felt that the product didn't
offer them any compelling reason to upgrade and also misses 100% of
those who couldn't afford the upgrade (probably the two biggest
complaints among missing users). I then observed it misses most of
the market which isn't buying Delphi in the first place or left
Delphi for something else a nd aren't getting a chance to tell you
why. He then told me,

"People leave Delphi for C#; people leave C# for Delphi (?!?). That's
why we just keep doing what we're doing."

That's when I really came to believe they live in their own world

I bet he is right. People do leave Delphi toward other languages, and
people leave other languages and start using Delphi. That is not
"living in an own world", that is plain reality. And your own
experience (I guess you left Delphi, but are stuck with it for some
legacy stuff?) has nothing to do with that.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Everything secret degenerates, even the administration of
justice." -- Lord Acton
Rudy Velthuis (...


Posts: 7,684
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Nov 14, 2017 12:55 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB, MVP) wrote:

Joseph Mitzen wrote:

Luigi Sandon wrote:
Since the majority of people use say Java or C#, the majority of
people

You would be surprised about how many Delphi developers switched
to C#.... most of my old colleagues I started to work with in
Delphi twenty years ago made that switch.

This is a painful subject for me. I remember when David Intersimone
decided to conduct a poll about Delphi satisfaction. He did it by
polling the first 500 people to buy the newest release of Delphi. He
then basically concluded that everyone loves Delphi. I corresponded
with him and pointed out that this would be like Apple polling the
first 500 people to buy the new iPhone. The first purchasers are
always rabid fans who camp out at stores overnight. Apple would then
conclude that iPhones were perfect. De spite working as a data
analyst, David then proceeded to inform me that I make lots of
assumptions, etc. I tried to explain to him then that his survey
methodology misses 100% of those who felt that the product didn't
offer them any compelling reason to upgrade and also misses 100% of
those who couldn't afford the upgrade (probably the two biggest
complaints among missing users). I then observed it misses most of
the market which isn't buying Delphi in the first place or left
Delphi for something else a nd aren't getting a chance to tell you
why. He then told me,

"People leave Delphi for C#; people leave C# for Delphi (?!?).
That's why we just keep doing what we're doing."

That's when I really came to believe they live in their own world

I bet he is right. People do leave Delphi toward other languages, and
people leave other languages and start using Delphi.

Anecdotal evidence: I regularly see people writing they are new biew in
Delphi (e.g. on Stack Overflow). You then see them make mistakes that
clearly show they come from another language (e.g. they treat strings
as classes -- Java, C#, etc. --, or records as classes -- C++ --, etc.,
etc.).

Yes, anecdotal evidence, but still... It shows that people switch
toward Delphi too, not just away from it.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Comedy is simply a funny way of being serious."
-- Peter Ustinov (1921-2004)
Markus Humm

Posts: 5,062
Registered: 11/9/03
Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Nov 11, 2017 4:23 AM   in response to: Joseph Mitzen in response to: Joseph Mitzen
Am 11.11.2017 um 04:47 schrieb Joseph Mitzen:

That's when I really came to believe they live in their own world where outside reality doesn't matter.> They're going to do what they do regardless of how customers or
potential customer> feel about it. Heck, the fact that none of them
interact with users here shows how little value
they place on what their customers are thinking.

With some of your statements you might be true, but that nobody is
reading here is wrong. In some of the forums you get an occassional
answer from an EMBT employee and some do read here now and then but not
comment.

It's simply that especially this forum here has often a too bad signal
to noise ratio.

When I write to Marco Cantu I ussually get an answer which mostly shows
he cares about my questions. I just yesterday had a conversation via
e-mail with him.

He also runs a blog and there he usually answers to comments placed to
the blog posts. It can just take a little bit of times now and then.

=> while I also do not 100% agree with what EMBT is doing or with their
"public relations" I do not think they're not interacting with users.

And in comparison to some years ago they quite often run webinars where
one can post questions to a chat which usually get an answer.

Greetings

Markus
Joseph Mitzen

Posts: 388
Registered: 6/9/02
Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Nov 10, 2017 8:42 AM   in response to: Kim Madsen in response to: Kim Madsen
Kim Madsen wrote:
That has absolutely nothing to do with marketing or anything.
It has to do with incorrect statistics manipulation.

Oh come on. You know, the Perl folks were dead last and not a one of them on Reddit was claiming faulty numbers, but on both Google Plus and here I knew you folks would be trying to deny reality. The Perl folks even joked "Just give Perl 6 some time and we won't be last anymore!"

My job is rooted in data analysis and I've worked in the past as a supply chain data analyst; the folks who wrote this article are data scientists. So from the professional opinion of both them and us, there's nothing wrong with the statistics - and they certainly don't have some vendetta to have engaged in "manipulation". If this community ever spent 1/10 the time facing reality that they spent in inventing creative excuses and living in 1999, perhaps Delphi would be in a lot better shape today.


Since the majority of people use say Java or C#, the majority of people
will have less interest in anything Delphi related, why they mark that
as not of their interest.

I'm not sure how that's any different than what is claimed. More importantly, it's not like the data found that people would check every single other language they don't currently use as "don't want to work with". That's a trait generally limited to Delphi users. If you read the article you'll discover that there are correlations between certain pairs of languages and also that the languages growing the most were the most favorited and that those disliked most were in decline. You wouldn't see that if people were checking off every technology they don't personally use as something they did not want to work with.

Think of it this way: Perl is used a lot more than Delphi. If what you're arguing were true, Perl would not be at the bottom of the rankings.

It it should have any meaning, they magically should count the number of
actual C# developers and correlate that with the number of them that has
decided to dislike C#.

Magically?

Do the same with Java and Delphi, and you will
have a value that is more indicative of actual dislike of something,
based on actual choise and knowledge.

You're missing the point here. What's revealed is that Delphi has a negative image and people don't want to use it. How are you going to get new users if people don't want to use your product? Apparently the answer is: "Let's just pretend people love our product and thus things will change any day now." :-(

I'm reminded of the time I tried to talk data with David Intersimone (now there's a guy who lied with data; Marco Cantu is another) and he said "People leave Delphi for C#; people leave C# for Delphi (?!?), so we just keep doing what we're doing." Translation: what we do has no connection to objective, external reality.

Edited by: Joseph Mitzen on Nov 10, 2017 8:42 AM
Mike Margerum

Posts: 583
Registered: 12/1/99
Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language [Edit]
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  Posted: Nov 11, 2017 7:16 AM   in response to: Joseph Mitzen in response to: Joseph Mitzen
On 11/10/17 11:43 AM, Joseph Mitzen wrote:
Kim Madsen wrote:
That has absolutely nothing to do with marketing or anything.
It has to do with incorrect statistics manipulation.

Oh come on. You know, the Perl folks were dead last and not a one of them on Reddit was claiming faulty numbers, but on both Google Plus and here I knew you folks would be trying to deny reality. The Perl folks even joked "Just give Perl 6 some time and we won't be last anymore!"

I suspect they are right about Perl 6. It's very powerful and well
design IMO.
Rudy Velthuis (...


Posts: 7,684
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language [Edit]
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  Posted: Nov 14, 2017 12:56 AM   in response to: Mike Margerum in response to: Mike Margerum
Mike Margerum wrote:

I suspect they are right about Perl 6. It's very powerful and well
design IMO.

Well designed or not, it is an abomination.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"The problem with people who have no vices is that
generally you can be pretty sure they're going to
have some pretty annoying virtues."
-- Elizabeth Taylor
David Jacobo Ag...

Posts: 2
Registered: 4/5/04
Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Jan 18, 2018 4:34 PM   in response to: Kim Madsen in response to: Kim Madsen
This is like the news. No matter the science what the market thinks is the "truth".
Stackoverflow has a name and what they say is highly credible.

There is no way in this world Delphi gets more users with such a bad reputation
which is very discouraging since professionals aim at adding value to their careers.

No matter what EMBT say, We want Delphi a is tool to create, to research and suitable for
a tech startup. Not only to maintain old software.

Kim Madsen wrote:
That has absolutely nothing to do with marketing or anything.
It has to do with incorrect statistics manipulation.

Since the majority of people use say Java or C#, the majority of people
will have less interest in anything Delphi related, why they mark that
as not of their interest.

It it should have any meaning, they magically should count the number of
actual C# developers and correlate that with the number of them that has
decided to dislike C#. Do the same with Java and Delphi, and you will
have a value that is more indicative of actual dislike of something,
based on actual choise and knowledge.

best regards
Kim/C4D

On 31/10/2017 14.40, Luigi Sandon wrote:
https://stackoverflow.blog/2017/10/31/disliked-programming-languages/

Embarcadero marketing has to work far better....
David Jacobo Ag...

Posts: 2
Registered: 4/5/04
Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this thread Reply
  Posted: Jan 18, 2018 4:34 PM   in response to: Kim Madsen in response to: Kim Madsen
This is like the news. No matter the science what the market thinks is the "truth".
Stackoverflow has a name and what they say is highly credible.

There is no way in this world Delphi gets more users with such a bad reputation
which is very discouraging since professionals aim at adding value to their careers.

No matter what EMBT say, We want Delphi a is tool to create, to research and suitable for
a tech startup. Not only to maintain old software.

Kim Madsen wrote:
That has absolutely nothing to do with marketing or anything.
It has to do with incorrect statistics manipulation.

Since the majority of people use say Java or C#, the majority of people
will have less interest in anything Delphi related, why they mark that
as not of their interest.

It it should have any meaning, they magically should count the number of
actual C# developers and correlate that with the number of them that has
decided to dislike C#. Do the same with Java and Delphi, and you will
have a value that is more indicative of actual dislike of something,
based on actual choise and knowledge.

best regards
Kim/C4D

On 31/10/2017 14.40, Luigi Sandon wrote:
https://stackoverflow.blog/2017/10/31/disliked-programming-languages/

Embarcadero marketing has to work far better....
John David

Posts: 68
Registered: 9/5/16
Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Oct 31, 2017 11:49 AM   in response to: Luigi Sandon in response to: Luigi Sandon
On 31/10/2017 13:40, Luigi Sandon wrote:
https://stackoverflow.blog/2017/10/31/disliked-programming-languages/

Embarcadero marketing has to work far better....

Embarcadero's priorities are all wrong. They are wasting time trying to
make products for Linux when Microsoft is trying to give away products
to Linux Communities by releasing dot.net core and MSSQL for Linux.

Microsoft went out of its way to release their Code Editor for all
platforms (called VS code) and you can now develop apps on all
platforms. I use VS code for most things these days and I can develop
C# Apps on it for free. It is light weight and very fast.

Embarcadero is making products for Linux to SELL but they should know
that Borland Kylix was a failure because Linux people don't pay for
products or if they pay then they are called donations by paying $5 or
$10 at most.

Embarcadero made a start by releasing Starter Editions for Windows, now
they should do the same for Linux and Mac and this should get them to
start making Apps. This increases the user base and then start charging
something when the number is large enough to make it viable.
Rudy Velthuis (...


Posts: 7,684
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Nov 1, 2017 9:42 AM   in response to: John David in response to: John David
John David wrote:

On 31/10/2017 13:40, Luigi Sandon wrote:
https://stackoverflow.blog/2017/10/31/disliked-programming-languages/

Embarcadero marketing has to work far better....

Embarcadero's priorities are all wrong. They are wasting time trying
to make products for Linux when Microsoft is trying to give away
products to Linux Communities by releasing dot.net core and MSSQL for
Linux.

That only shows they react to customer demand. Now you can use the same
product, using a great language, to write for Win32, Win64, OSX, iOS,
Android and Linux. Sounds like an attractive offer to me.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Denial ain't just a river in Egypt."
-- Mark Twain (1835-1910)
Mark Marks

Posts: 260
Registered: 9/11/00
Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Nov 1, 2017 10:49 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB, MVP) wrote:

That only shows they react to customer demand. Now you can use the
same product, using a great language, to write for Win32, Win64, OSX,
iOS, Android and Linux. Sounds like an attractive offer to me.

Do TeamB members get a free license and subscription?
John David

Posts: 68
Registered: 9/5/16
Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Nov 1, 2017 11:11 AM   in response to: Mark Marks in response to: Mark Marks
On 01/11/2017 17:49, Mark Marks wrote:
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB, MVP) wrote:

That only shows they react to customer demand. Now you can use the
same product, using a great language, to write for Win32, Win64, OSX,
iOS, Android and Linux. Sounds like an attractive offer to me.

Do TeamB members get a free license and subscription?

It looks like that otherwise they won't be so subservient like they are
on these newsgroups.
Rudy Velthuis (...


Posts: 7,684
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Nov 3, 2017 4:46 AM   in response to: John David in response to: John David
John David wrote:

On 01/11/2017 17:49, Mark Marks wrote:
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB, MVP) wrote:

That only shows they react to customer demand. Now you can use the
same product, using a great language, to write for Win32, Win64,
OSX, >> iOS, Android and Linux. Sounds like an attractive offer to me.

Do TeamB members get a free license and subscription?

It looks like that otherwise they won't be so subservient like they
are on these newsgroups.

Bullshit. We can say whatever we like. No one is "subservient". But we
know a little more than other users do.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"I'd stop eating chocolate, but I'm no quitter." -- Unknown
Dominique Willems

Posts: 591
Registered: 10/26/99
Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Nov 3, 2017 4:55 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB, MVP) wrote:
We can say whatever we like.

Really? No TeamB member could get banned for saying whatever they like?
I remember differently.
Rudy Velthuis (...


Posts: 7,684
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Nov 5, 2017 11:22 PM   in response to: Dominique Willems in response to: Dominique Willems
Dominique Willems wrote:

Rudy Velthuis (TeamB, MVP) wrote:
We can say whatever we like.

Really? No TeamB member could get banned for saying whatever they
like? I remember differently.

Of course. But it would have to be blatantly ugly. Everyone can be
banned.
--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"It is dangerous to be right in matters on which the
established authorities are wrong."
-- Voltaire
Dominique Willems

Posts: 591
Registered: 10/26/99
Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Nov 6, 2017 3:17 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB, MVP) wrote:
Of course. But it would have to be blatantly ugly. Everyone can be
banned.

Sure. I'm putting you down for the December rotation of White House
press secretary.
Rudy Velthuis (...


Posts: 7,684
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Nov 9, 2017 6:55 AM   in response to: Dominique Willems in response to: Dominique Willems
Dominique Willems wrote:

Rudy Velthuis (TeamB, MVP) wrote:
Of course. But it would have to be blatantly ugly. Everyone can be
banned.

Sure. I'm putting you down for the December rotation of White House
press secretary.

I didn't say "everyone can be Bannon". <g>

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Sometimes when reading Goethe I have the paralyzing suspicion
that he is trying to be funny."
-- Guy Davenport
Mark Marks

Posts: 260
Registered: 9/11/00
Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Nov 3, 2017 6:11 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB, MVP) wrote:

We can say whatever we like.

Now you are just plainly writing a falsehood. Shame, shame.
Rudy Velthuis (...


Posts: 7,684
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Nov 5, 2017 11:23 PM   in response to: Mark Marks in response to: Mark Marks
Mark Marks wrote:

Rudy Velthuis (TeamB, MVP) wrote:

We can say whatever we like.

Now you are just plainly writing a falsehood. Shame, shame.

I have said many things I like. So, no, no falsehood.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"His ignorance is encyclopedic"
-- Abba Eban (1915-2002)
Mark Marks

Posts: 260
Registered: 9/11/00
Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Nov 6, 2017 6:12 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB, MVP) wrote:

Mark Marks wrote:

Rudy Velthuis (TeamB, MVP) wrote:

We can say whatever we like.

Now you are just plainly writing a falsehood. Shame, shame.

I have said many things I like. So, no, no falsehood.

You now use a different definition of "like" .

So sad for you Rudy. That you think it is clever, another sadness.
Rudy Velthuis (...


Posts: 7,684
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Nov 9, 2017 6:56 AM   in response to: Mark Marks in response to: Mark Marks
Mark Marks wrote:

Rudy Velthuis (TeamB, MVP) wrote:

Mark Marks wrote:

Rudy Velthuis (TeamB, MVP) wrote:

We can say whatever we like.

Now you are just plainly writing a falsehood. Shame, shame.

I have said many things I like. So, no, no falsehood.

You now use a different definition of "like" .

Not at all. I know what I like. Better than anyone else. And you can
read what I have written/said.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
-- George Santayana
Mark Marks

Posts: 260
Registered: 9/11/00
Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Nov 9, 2017 7:34 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB, MVP) wrote:

Not at all. I know what I like. Better than anyone else. And you can
read what I have written/said.

So sad.
Rudy Velthuis (...


Posts: 7,684
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Nov 9, 2017 8:43 AM   in response to: Mark Marks in response to: Mark Marks
Mark Marks wrote:

Rudy Velthuis (TeamB, MVP) wrote:

Not at all. I know what I like. Better than anyone else. And you can
read what I have written/said.

So sad.

Nah, most of what I wrote was pretty lighthearted, actually.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Democracy is the process by which people choose the man who'll
get the blame." -- Bertrand Russell
Mark Marks

Posts: 260
Registered: 9/11/00
Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Nov 9, 2017 9:14 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB, MVP) wrote:

Nah, most of what I wrote was pretty lighthearted, actually.

So so sad.
Markus Humm

Posts: 5,062
Registered: 11/9/03
Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Nov 9, 2017 9:47 AM   in response to: Mark Marks in response to: Mark Marks
Am 09.11.2017 um 18:14 schrieb Mark Marks:
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB, MVP) wrote:

Nah, most of what I wrote was pretty lighthearted, actually.

So so sad.

Can you do anything else besides repeating yourself?
Or we could even formulate it like this: don't feed the trolls.
Your posts of an answer just provoke another answer from Rudy as he
sometimes simply doesn't see when to not answer (in this regards he's
like you currently).

Have a nice evening both of you

Markus
Mark Marks

Posts: 260
Registered: 9/11/00
Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Nov 9, 2017 11:48 AM   in response to: Markus Humm in response to: Markus Humm
Markus Humm wrote:

Can you do anything else besides repeating yourself?

It was not a repeat. I added another "so", and I am doing it by design.

Or we could even formulate it like this: don't feed the trolls.

I am trying to help Rudy see what others see, regarding his post. I
have failed so far but that does not mean, time to quit trying.

Your posts of an answer just provoke another answer from Rudy as he
sometimes simply doesn't see when to not answer (in this regards he's
like you currently).

I disagree.

Have a nice evening both of you

You too.
Rudy Velthuis (...


Posts: 7,684
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Nov 9, 2017 1:55 PM   in response to: Mark Marks in response to: Mark Marks
Mark Marks wrote:

I am trying to help Rudy see what others see, regarding his post.

LOL! No, you are most definitely not trying to help me. You just don't
like what I write, so you think you should make some kind of witty
comment trying to ridicule or discredit me.

Doesn't work, but hey, nice try.

And you ran out of remarks.

And "So sad" sounds so trumpy. You must be a fan. <g>

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"There is a tragic clash between truth and the world. Pure
undistorted truth burns up the world."
-- Nikolay Berdyayev
Eivind Bakkestuen


Posts: 436
Registered: 5/8/01
Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Nov 4, 2017 9:29 PM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Bullshit. We can say whatever we like. No one is "subservient". But we
know a little more than other users do.

You can say whatever you like when wearing the Team B hat, but let's
not pretend that there wouldn't be a chance of dire consequences
regarding the team membership, if public statememts were deemed to be
damaging to company or brands.

--
Eivind Bakkestuen [NDD]
Jeff Overcash (...

Posts: 1,499
Registered: 9/23/99
Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Nov 4, 2017 11:00 PM   in response to: Eivind Bakkestuen in response to: Eivind Bakkestuen
Eivind Bakkestuen wrote:
Bullshit. We can say whatever we like. No one is "subservient". But we
know a little more than other users do.

You can say whatever you like when wearing the Team B hat, but let's
not pretend that there wouldn't be a chance of dire consequences
regarding the team membership, if public statememts were deemed to be
damaging to company or brands.

In 19 years I've never seen it. Not have I been told what to say. I have been
critical of them in the past, although I also have means of communicating
disagreement more directly with people within Embarcadero so will rarely use
these public forums that won't reach them instead of using means that do reach them.

--
Jeff Overcash (TeamB)
(Please do not email me directly unless asked. Thank You)
Learning is finding out what you already know. Doing is demonstrating that you
know it. Teaching is reminding others that they know it as well as you. We are
all leaners, doers, teachers. (R Bach)
Rudy Velthuis (...


Posts: 7,684
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Nov 5, 2017 11:25 PM   in response to: Jeff Overcash (... in response to: Jeff Overcash (...
Jeff Overcash (TeamB) wrote:

Eivind Bakkestuen wrote:
Bullshit. We can say whatever we like. No one is "subservient".
But we >> know a little more than other users do.

You can say whatever you like when wearing the Team B hat, but let's
not pretend that there wouldn't be a chance of dire consequences
regarding the team membership, if public statememts were deemed to
be damaging to company or brands.

In 19 years I've never seen it. Not have I been told what to say. I
have been critical of them in the past, although I also have means of
communicating disagreement more directly with people within
Embarcadero so will rarely use these public forums that won't reach
them instead of using means that do reach them.

Exactly. But only 16 years for me. <g>

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

Goebel's Law Of Software Compatibility: A statement of absolute
functional equivalence made in bold print followed by several
pages of qualifications is fine.
Joseph Mitzen

Posts: 388
Registered: 6/9/02
Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Nov 11, 2017 1:46 PM   in response to: Jeff Overcash (... in response to: Jeff Overcash (...
Jeff Overcash (TeamB) wrote:

In 19 years I've never seen it.

Two words: Joanna Carter. I'd add Nick Hodges, and that was being fired just for something he said internally.
Markus Humm

Posts: 5,062
Registered: 11/9/03
Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Nov 12, 2017 1:11 AM   in response to: Joseph Mitzen in response to: Joseph Mitzen
Am 11.11.2017 um 22:46 schrieb Joseph Mitzen:
Jeff Overcash (TeamB) wrote:

In 19 years I've never seen it.

Two words: Joanna Carter. I'd add Nick Hodges, and that was being fired just for something he said internally.

Nick is a bit of a different case, as he came back later ;-)

Greetings

Markus
Jeff Overcash (...

Posts: 1,499
Registered: 9/23/99
Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Nov 12, 2017 10:00 AM   in response to: Markus Humm in response to: Markus Humm
Markus Humm wrote:
Am 11.11.2017 um 22:46 schrieb Joseph Mitzen:
Jeff Overcash (TeamB) wrote:
In 19 years I've never seen it.
Two words: Joanna Carter. I'd add Nick Hodges, and that was being fired just for something he said internally.

Nick is a bit of a different case, as he came back later ;-)

Greetings

Markus

I included Joanna too as the public only heard her side of why. I know both
sides and stand by my statement that no one has been canned from TeamB for
stating their opinion on here. There was much more to her story than she told
and Embarcadero never stated the reasons publicly.

Nick was not TeamB at the time (hadn't been for over 2 years) and even he
admitted he deserved to be fired at the time IIRC.

--
Jeff Overcash (TeamB)
(Please do not email me directly unless asked. Thank You)
Learning is finding out what you already know. Doing is demonstrating that you
know it. Teaching is reminding others that they know it as well as you. We are
all leaners, doers, teachers. (R Bach)
Joseph Mitzen

Posts: 388
Registered: 6/9/02
Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Nov 12, 2017 8:49 PM   in response to: Jeff Overcash (... in response to: Jeff Overcash (...
Jeff Overcash (TeamB) wrote:

I included Joanna too as the public only heard her side of why.

If no one else wants to offer another version publicly then that's the same as acquiescing to it. They've done the same with the story about Interbase going open source - they claim the account of the Starkey's is inaccurate but won't give their own version. I'm left wondering why someone wouldn't want to offer a version of history that exonerates themselves?

I know both
sides and stand by my statement that no one has been canned from TeamB for
stating their opinion on here.

Well, then I guess I'll say I know Joanna and "There are secret reasons we can't tell you about" isn't a refutation of anyone else's claims.

There was much more to her story than she told
and Embarcadero never stated the reasons publicly.

Embarcadero is the same entity that tried to claim that the EULA crisis was really about a "draft" email. This claim was ludicrous since the leaker was an ISV who had received said e-mail, which makes it no longer a draft. A second person came forward publicly (assuming the NDA no longer applied if EMBT was talking about it) to say that they had received the email and it was presented as a done deal. This means that EMBT not only lied, but they're not good liars.

Nick was not TeamB at the time (hadn't been for over 2 years) and even he
admitted he deserved to be fired at the time IIRC.

Someone who worked at Embarcadero and posted on various Delphi-related blogs as "Embarcadero Insider" told a story that the team received an email from Nick that told them to be careful about bugs because they knew that "Embarcadero would release shit". Nick was then called into an office and fired. Nick Hodges showed up to reply to that post, only objecting to the fact that he would never use the word "shit". Again, note that he objected to no other part of the story. Embarcadero Insider then corrected themselves, stating they believed the word was "crap". Nick never replied again, even with other people asking him about, to refute this version of events. That sounds like Nick got fired for standing up for we users regarding EMBT's tendency to ship products that need more bug-fixing.

I will stand corrected, though, that it was only after he was fired that he became an MVP.

The bigger problem, though, is that we've seen a copy of the MVP contract. It specifically includes a clause forbidding MVPs from "disparaging" Embarcadero or any of its products. This flat-out proves that it can happen (and makes the alternate, secret version of Carter's banishment more unlikely). It's quite possible that we don't see MVPs getting their status revoked for disparaging Embarcadero simply because they don't disparage Embarcadero as they know what will happen per their agreement.
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Registered: 9/22/99
Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Nov 14, 2017 1:28 AM   in response to: Joseph Mitzen in response to: Joseph Mitzen
Joseph Mitzen wrote:

Jeff Overcash (TeamB) wrote:

I included Joanna too as the public only heard her side of why.

If no one else wants to offer another version publicly then that's
the same as acquiescing to it.

Nonsense. A company like Embarcadero simply doesn't discuss such issues
in public. That Joanna decided to do that was her decision, but not
very professional, IMO.

Take a look at Nick: he never tried to do that. This was between him
and his employer, and none of our business. He did the right thing, and
kept it private. That is, IMO, the honourable and professional way to
handle this, from both sides.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"The first 90% of the code accounts for the first 90% of the
development time. The remaining 10% of the code accounts for
the other 90% of the development time." -- Tom Cargill
Nick Hodges

Posts: 2,414
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Nov 28, 2017 10:58 AM   in response to: Joseph Mitzen in response to: Joseph Mitzen
Joseph Mitzen wrote:

Someone who worked at Embarcadero and posted on various
Delphi-related blogs as "Embarcadero Insider" told a story that the
team received an email from Nick that told them to be careful about
bugs because they knew that "Embarcadero would release shit".

This is completely false. I did no such thing.

Or rather, the story is false. It may be true that the "story" exists.
I can't speak to what someone else did or did not say.


--
Nick Hodges

Rudy Velthuis (...


Posts: 7,684
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Nov 14, 2017 1:24 AM   in response to: Jeff Overcash (... in response to: Jeff Overcash (...
Jeff Overcash (TeamB) wrote:

Markus Humm wrote:
Am 11.11.2017 um 22:46 schrieb Joseph Mitzen:
Jeff Overcash (TeamB) wrote:
In 19 years I've never seen it.
Two words: Joanna Carter. I'd add Nick Hodges, and that was being
fired just for something he said internally.

Nick is a bit of a different case, as he came back later ;-)

Greetings

Markus

I included Joanna too as the public only heard her side of why. I
know both sides and stand by my statement that no one has been canned
from TeamB for stating their opinion on here. There was much more to
her story than she told and Embarcadero never stated the reasons
publicly.

Indeed. Embarcadero doesn't discuss such issues in public, and that is
correct. There was much more to it than Joanna stated.
--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"In any contest between power and patience, bet on patience."
-- W.B. Prescott
Rudy Velthuis (...


Posts: 7,684
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Nov 14, 2017 1:22 AM   in response to: Joseph Mitzen in response to: Joseph Mitzen
Joseph Mitzen wrote:

Jeff Overcash (TeamB) wrote:

In 19 years I've never seen it.

Two words: Joanna Carter. I'd add Nick Hodges, and that was being
fired just for something he said internally.

Nick was never thrown out of TeamB. He himself quit TeamB because he
got the job at Embarcadero. Nick was never thrown off these newsgroups
either. Not to visit here anymore was his own decision.

I'll not discuss the others. Just know that there is usually much more
going on behind the scenes than you can see on these public groups.
--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"It is not what we do, but also what we do not do, for which we
are accountable."
-- Moliere
Rudy Velthuis (...


Posts: 7,684
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Nov 9, 2017 2:02 PM   in response to: Eivind Bakkestuen in response to: Eivind Bakkestuen
Eivind Bakkestuen wrote:

Bullshit. We can say whatever we like. No one is "subservient". But
we know a little more than other users do.

You can say whatever you like when wearing the Team B hat, but let's
not pretend that there wouldn't be a chance of dire consequences
regarding the team membership, if public statememts were deemed to be
damaging to company or brands.

Everyone can be banned for being hateful, racist, offensive, rude, etc.
And I guess that people that repeatedly said bad and wrong things about
Embarcadero would not be TeamB for long. But others, non-TeamB, would
probably be banned too.

But they don't tell us what to say, and they don't tell us to praise
them or only write positive things about them or their products. If I
write things about them, it is my true opinion. If it were not my
opinion, I would simply not write anything.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Now, now my good man, this is no time for making enemies."
-- Voltaire (1694-1778) on his deathbed in response to a priest
asking that he renounce Satan.
Van Swofford

Posts: 390
Registered: 6/28/03
Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Nov 10, 2017 9:05 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB, MVP) wrote:

Everyone can be banned for being hateful, racist, offensive, rude,
etc.

Or mentioning Apple too many times. :-)

--
Cheers,
Van

"Good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad
judgment." - Will Rogers
Lajos Juhasz

Posts: 784
Registered: 3/14/14
Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Nov 10, 2017 1:02 PM   in response to: Van Swofford in response to: Van Swofford
Van Swofford wrote:

Rudy Velthuis (TeamB, MVP) wrote:

Everyone can be banned for being hateful, racist, offensive, rude,
etc.

Or mentioning Apple too many times. :-)

You forgot to mention Oxygene in your post?
Van Swofford

Posts: 390
Registered: 6/28/03
Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Nov 10, 2017 9:09 PM   in response to: Lajos Juhasz in response to: Lajos Juhasz
Lajos Juhasz wrote:

Van Swofford wrote:

Rudy Velthuis (TeamB, MVP) wrote:

Everyone can be banned for being hateful, racist, offensive, rude,
etc.

Or mentioning Apple too many times. :-)

You forgot to mention Oxygene in your post?

That too!

--
Cheers,
Van

"Good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad
judgment." - Will Rogers
Rudy Velthuis (...


Posts: 7,684
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Nov 11, 2017 1:20 AM   in response to: Lajos Juhasz in response to: Lajos Juhasz
Lajos Juhasz wrote:

Van Swofford wrote:

Rudy Velthuis (TeamB, MVP) wrote:

Everyone can be banned for being hateful, racist, offensive, rude,
etc.

Or mentioning Apple too many times. :-)

You forgot to mention Oxygene in your post?

I don't think that mentioning Oxygene is per se a problem. But it
depends a little on how it is done, and who is doing it. <g>

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to public
office."
-- Aesop
Rudy Velthuis (...


Posts: 7,684
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Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Nov 11, 2017 1:00 AM   in response to: Van Swofford in response to: Van Swofford
Van Swofford wrote:

Rudy Velthuis (TeamB, MVP) wrote:

Everyone can be banned for being hateful, racist, offensive, rude,
etc.

Or mentioning Apple too many times. :-)

Nah, because then I would have been banned for life. And I'm still
here.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"I don't feel good." -- Luther Burbank, dying words
Van Swofford

Posts: 390
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Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Nov 13, 2017 7:12 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB, MVP) wrote:

Van Swofford wrote:

Rudy Velthuis (TeamB, MVP) wrote:

Everyone can be banned for being hateful, racist, offensive, rude,
etc.

Or mentioning Apple too many times. :-)

Nah, because then I would have been banned for life. And I'm still
here.

Could be you're just one short. :-)

--
Cheers,
Van

"Good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad
judgment." - Will Rogers
Rudy Velthuis (...


Posts: 7,684
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Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Nov 14, 2017 1:29 AM   in response to: Van Swofford in response to: Van Swofford
Van Swofford wrote:

Rudy Velthuis (TeamB, MVP) wrote:

Van Swofford wrote:

Rudy Velthuis (TeamB, MVP) wrote:

Everyone can be banned for being hateful, racist, offensive,
rude, etc.

Or mentioning Apple too many times. :-)

Nah, because then I would have been banned for life. And I'm still
here.

Could be you're just one short. :-)

Let's try: Apple Apple Apple. I like some Apple products. An Apple a
day keeps the dentist... er...

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"To err is human -- and to blame it on a computer is even more
so." -- Robert Orben.
Van Swofford

Posts: 390
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Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Nov 14, 2017 7:36 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB, MVP) wrote:

Van Swofford wrote:

Rudy Velthuis (TeamB, MVP) wrote:

Van Swofford wrote:

Rudy Velthuis (TeamB, MVP) wrote:

Everyone can be banned for being hateful, racist, offensive,
rude, etc.

Or mentioning Apple too many times. :-)

Nah, because then I would have been banned for life. And I'm still
here.

Could be you're just one short. :-)

Let's try: Apple Apple Apple. I like some Apple products. An Apple a
day keeps the dentist... er...

Okay, maybe 10. :-) An Apple a day keeps the dentist busy playing
with his new toys?

--
Cheers,
Van

"Good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad
judgment." - Will Rogers
Rudy Velthuis (...


Posts: 7,684
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Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Nov 15, 2017 11:23 PM   in response to: Van Swofford in response to: Van Swofford
Van Swofford wrote:

Rudy Velthuis (TeamB, MVP) wrote:

Van Swofford wrote:

Rudy Velthuis (TeamB, MVP) wrote:

Van Swofford wrote:

Rudy Velthuis (TeamB, MVP) wrote:

Everyone can be banned for being hateful, racist, offensive,
rude, etc.

Or mentioning Apple too many times. :-)

Nah, because then I would have been banned for life. And I'm
still here.

Could be you're just one short. :-)

Let's try: Apple Apple Apple. I like some Apple products. An Apple a
day keeps the dentist... er...

Okay, maybe 10. :-) An Apple a day keeps the dentist busy playing
with his new toys?

They don't stay new. Actually, my iMac is a 2009 model and my iPhone is
a 5s (but I will get the new X soon and my iPad is the latest Pro). <g>

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"There Ought to be Limits to Freedom!"
-- George W. Bush, commenting on gwbush.com (05/21/1999)
Van Swofford

Posts: 390
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Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Nov 16, 2017 4:17 PM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB, MVP) wrote:

Van Swofford wrote:

Rudy Velthuis (TeamB, MVP) wrote:

Van Swofford wrote:

Rudy Velthuis (TeamB, MVP) wrote:

Van Swofford wrote:

Rudy Velthuis (TeamB, MVP) wrote:

Everyone can be banned for being hateful, racist,
offensive, rude, etc.

Or mentioning Apple too many times. :-)

Nah, because then I would have been banned for life. And I'm
still here.

Could be you're just one short. :-)

Let's try: Apple Apple Apple. I like some Apple products. An
Apple a day keeps the dentist... er...

Okay, maybe 10. :-) An Apple a day keeps the dentist busy playing
with his new toys?

They don't stay new. Actually, my iMac is a 2009 model and my iPhone
is a 5s (but I will get the new X soon and my iPad is the latest
Pro). <g>

Yeah, mine tend to go a while between upgrades, too. Had to move from
a 2010 Mac Pro to a 2015 iMac 2 years ago, and still using the 2013
Macbook Air and iPad 4 from whenever that was, 2014 I think. Good
quality hardware lasts a while!

--
Cheers,
Van

"Good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad
judgment." - Will Rogers
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Nov 14, 2017 7:44 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB, MVP) wrote:

Van Swofford wrote:

Rudy Velthuis (TeamB, MVP) wrote:

Van Swofford wrote:

Rudy Velthuis (TeamB, MVP) wrote:

Everyone can be banned for being hateful, racist, offensive,
rude, etc.

Or mentioning Apple too many times. :-)

Nah, because then I would have been banned for life. And I'm still
here.

Could be you're just one short. :-)

Let's try: Apple Apple Apple. I like some Apple products. An Apple a
day keeps the dentist... er...

... at bay. <g>

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"An organisation that treats its programmers as morons will soon
have programmers that are willing and able to act like morons
only." -- Bjarne Stroustrup
Markus Humm

Posts: 5,062
Registered: 11/9/03
Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Nov 14, 2017 9:47 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Am 14.11.2017 um 10:29 schrieb Rudy Velthuis (TeamB, MVP):
Van Swofford wrote:

Rudy Velthuis (TeamB, MVP) wrote:

Van Swofford wrote:

Rudy Velthuis (TeamB, MVP) wrote:

Everyone can be banned for being hateful, racist, offensive,
rude, etc.

Or mentioning Apple too many times. :-)

Nah, because then I would have been banned for life. And I'm still
here.

Could be you're just one short. :-)

Let's try: Apple Apple Apple. I like some Apple products. An Apple a
day keeps the dentist... er...

Are you maybe sponsored by a in Germany available certain brand of tooth
paste? ;-)

Greetings

Markus
Rudy Velthuis (...


Posts: 7,684
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Nov 15, 2017 11:24 PM   in response to: Markus Humm in response to: Markus Humm
Markus Humm wrote:

Am 14.11.2017 um 10:29 schrieb Rudy Velthuis (TeamB, MVP):
Van Swofford wrote:

Rudy Velthuis (TeamB, MVP) wrote:

Van Swofford wrote:

Rudy Velthuis (TeamB, MVP) wrote:

Everyone can be banned for being hateful, racist, offensive,
rude, etc.

Or mentioning Apple too many times. :-)

Nah, because then I would have been banned for life. And I'm still
here.

Could be you're just one short. :-)

Let's try: Apple Apple Apple. I like some Apple products. An Apple a
day keeps the dentist... er...

Are you maybe sponsored by a in Germany available certain brand of
tooth paste? ;-)

No comment. This should be stopped at the call gate. <g>
--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Truth is for the minority."
-- Baltasar Gracián
Markus Humm

Posts: 5,062
Registered: 11/9/03
Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Nov 16, 2017 10:28 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Am 16.11.2017 um 08:24 schrieb Rudy Velthuis (TeamB, MVP):
Markus Humm wrote:

Am 14.11.2017 um 10:29 schrieb Rudy Velthuis (TeamB, MVP):
Van Swofford wrote:

Rudy Velthuis (TeamB, MVP) wrote:

Van Swofford wrote:

Rudy Velthuis (TeamB, MVP) wrote:

Everyone can be banned for being hateful, racist, offensive,
rude, etc.

Or mentioning Apple too many times. :-)

Nah, because then I would have been banned for life. And I'm still
here.

Could be you're just one short. :-)

Let's try: Apple Apple Apple. I like some Apple products. An Apple a
day keeps the dentist... er...

Are you maybe sponsored by a in Germany available certain brand of
tooth paste? ;-)

No comment. This should be stopped at the call gate. <g>

That's another brand... ;-)
Remy Lebeau (Te...


Posts: 9,211
Registered: 12/23/01
Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Nov 1, 2017 12:00 PM   in response to: Mark Marks in response to: Mark Marks
Mark Marks wrote:

Do TeamB members get a free license and subscription?

Yes, we do. If it wasn't for that, I wouldn't have been able to keep
using Delphi/C++Builder for as long as I have.

--
Remy Lebeau (TeamB)
Rudy Velthuis (...


Posts: 7,684
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Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Nov 3, 2017 4:45 AM   in response to: Mark Marks in response to: Mark Marks
Mark Marks wrote:

Rudy Velthuis (TeamB, MVP) wrote:

That only shows they react to customer demand. Now you can use the
same product, using a great language, to write for Win32, Win64,
OSX, iOS, Android and Linux. Sounds like an attractive offer to me.

Do TeamB members get a free license and subscription?

When you've seen one non-sequitur, the price of tea in China.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Style distinguishes excellence from accomplishment."
-- James Coplien
Mark Marks

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Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Nov 3, 2017 6:08 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB, MVP) wrote:

When you've seen one non-sequitur, the price of tea in China.

So myopic.

I am certain you have some issue with the cost of a product in your
practice and for me, it "Sounds like an attractive offer to me."

As you see, my opinion is worthless; I have no skin in the game. Just
as your opinion, concerning the cost/value of Delphi, is worthless.
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Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Nov 5, 2017 11:26 PM   in response to: Mark Marks in response to: Mark Marks
Mark Marks wrote:

Rudy Velthuis (TeamB, MVP) wrote:

When you've seen one non-sequitur, the price of tea in China.

So myopic.

And another one.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"You need only reflect that one of the best ways to get
yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to
go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers
used in the great struggle for independence."
-- Attributed to Charles Austin Beard

Mark Marks

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Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Nov 6, 2017 6:08 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB, MVP) wrote:

Mark Marks wrote:

Rudy Velthuis (TeamB, MVP) wrote:

When you've seen one non-sequitur, the price of tea in China.

So myopic.

And another one.

It really is sad.
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Nov 9, 2017 1:57 PM   in response to: Mark Marks in response to: Mark Marks
Mark Marks wrote:

When you've seen one non-sequitur, the price of tea in China.

So myopic.

And another one.

It really is sad.

Yes, it is indeed sad how you try to get the last word. A good, proper
remark would have made it a lot better, of course. Now it just looks,
well, childish. <g>

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"More computing sins are committed in the name of efficiency
(without necessarily achieving it) than for any other single
reason - including blind stupidity." -- W.A. Wulf
Mark Marks

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Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Nov 9, 2017 2:15 PM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB, MVP) wrote:

LOL! No, you are most definitely not trying to help me

You have no idea what is in my mind.

Yes, it is indeed sad how you try to get the last word.

Liberals, always accusing others of what they ARE doing.

And I guess that people that repeatedly said bad and wrong things about
Embarcadero would not be TeamB for long.

You "guess"? You know it is true and what you wrote earlier is false.

Thanks for coming clean.

But they don't tell us what to say...

Red herring. No one said you were told what to say.

<shrug>
<so sad>
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Nov 9, 2017 2:23 PM   in response to: Mark Marks in response to: Mark Marks
Mark Marks wrote:

Rudy Velthuis (TeamB, MVP) wrote:

LOL! No, you are most definitely not trying to help me

You have no idea what is in my mind.

<shudder> And I don't want to know either.

But I do know what you are certainly not trying to do: help me.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored
by little statesmen and philosophers and divines."
-- Ralph Waldo Emerson
Mark Marks

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Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Nov 9, 2017 2:50 PM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB, MVP) wrote:

But I do know what you are certainly not trying to do: help me.

<shaking head>
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Nov 10, 2017 5:04 AM   in response to: Mark Marks in response to: Mark Marks
Mark Marks wrote:

Rudy Velthuis (TeamB, MVP) wrote:

But I do know what you are certainly not trying to do: help me.

<shaking head>

But you do try to copy me, obviously. That is, somehow, in an awkward
way, flattering, but don't try it. You're not good at it.

Or, as your great example would tweet: SAD! <vbg>

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and
the intelligent are full of doubt."
-- Bertrand Russell
Mark Marks

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Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Nov 10, 2017 6:36 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB, MVP) wrote:

That is, somehow, in an awkward way, flattering...

That you "think" it is flattering speaks volumes.

Still trying to help.

It is interesting, to me, you do not inquire what I am attempting to
help you with/accomplish. You just assert I am not trying to help.
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Nov 11, 2017 1:02 AM   in response to: Mark Marks in response to: Mark Marks
Mark Marks wrote:

Rudy Velthuis (TeamB, MVP) wrote:

That is, somehow, in an awkward way, flattering...

That you "think" it is flattering speaks volumes.

Even Oscar Wilde said: "Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery
that mediocrity can pay to greatness."

So your mediocrity paid the sincerest form of flattery to my greatness.
<g>

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle.
Then I realised that the Lord doesn't work that way so I stole
one and asked Him to forgive me." -- Emo Philips.
Mark Marks

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Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Nov 11, 2017 6:06 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB, MVP) wrote:

Even Oscar Wilde said:...

Quoting Oscar Wilde speaks volumes.

<shaking head>

I know that Mark Marks (or whatever his real name is) doesn't
want to help me

#1 You do not "know" my intent to be other than what I stated.

#2 You can only surmise (incorrectly) based on your viewpoint.

#3 Again with the "real name" button. You, I and others have discussed
it before. You appeared (at the time, from what you wrote) to
understand why and now you are back sliding. Confusing. It is just one
of those, not so subtle, ways you lash out.
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Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Nov 14, 2017 5:13 AM   in response to: Mark Marks in response to: Mark Marks
Mark Marks wrote:

Rudy Velthuis (TeamB, MVP) wrote:

Even Oscar Wilde said:...

Quoting Oscar Wilde speaks volumes.

Yes, indeed, thanks.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"I refuse to be labeled immoral merely because I am godless."
-- Peter Walker
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Nov 14, 2017 5:15 AM   in response to: Mark Marks in response to: Mark Marks
Mark Marks wrote:

#1 You do not "know" my intent to be other than what I stated.

I know you don't and didn't want to help me.

And frankly, I don't want to know much more about you. <g>

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Trying to get into the details seems to be a religious issue --
nearly everybody is convinced that every style but their own is
ugly and unreadable. Leave out the "but their own" and they're
probably right..." -- Jerry Coffin on indentation
Mark Marks

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Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Nov 14, 2017 6:27 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB, MVP) wrote:


I know you don't and didn't want to help me.

There you go again, thinking your opinion is fact.
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Nov 15, 2017 11:26 PM   in response to: Mark Marks in response to: Mark Marks
Mark Marks wrote:

Rudy Velthuis (TeamB, MVP) wrote:


I know you don't and didn't want to help me.

There you go again, thinking your opinion is fact.

Well, yes, I am very sure you don't and didn't want to help me. So I
don't "go again". I simply maintain what I said before.
--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"The man who accumulates, whether money or knowledge, can never
be free."
-- J. Krishnamurthi
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Nov 14, 2017 5:21 AM   in response to: Mark Marks in response to: Mark Marks
Mark Marks wrote:

#3 Again with the "real name" button. You, I and others have discussed
it before. You appeared (at the time, from what you wrote) to
understand why and now you are back sliding. Confusing. It is just one
of those, not so subtle, ways you lash out.

I have a strng suspicion that Mark Marks is not your real name. So I
wrote what I wrote. That is not a valuation of using real or fake names.

I really don't care whether people do that, because there can be many
valid reasons (fear for problems with employers or customers, for
instance, or when hiding for stalkers, or other valid reasons).

But I don't like it if they merely do it to lash out at others and are
too cowardly to stand for it with their real names.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"A language is a dialect with an army and a navy."
-- Max Weinreich
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Nov 11, 2017 1:05 AM   in response to: Mark Marks in response to: Mark Marks
Mark Marks wrote:

Rudy Velthuis (TeamB, MVP) wrote:

That is, somehow, in an awkward way, flattering...

That you "think" it is flattering speaks volumes.

Still trying to help.

It is interesting, to me, you do not inquire what I am attempting to
help you with/accomplish. You just assert I am not trying to help.

I don't really care what reason you give when you pretend you want to
help me.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education."
-- Albert Einstein
Markus Humm

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Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Nov 11, 2017 4:11 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Am 11.11.2017 um 10:05 schrieb Rudy Velthuis (TeamB, MVP):
Mark Marks wrote:

Rudy Velthuis (TeamB, MVP) wrote:

That is, somehow, in an awkward way, flattering...

That you "think" it is flattering speaks volumes.

Still trying to help.

It is interesting, to me, you do not inquire what I am attempting to
help you with/accomplish. You just assert I am not trying to help.

I don't really care what reason you give when you pretend you want to
help me.

So you do not want to know why others think you need help?
But from your reading history this was to be expected to be honest...

Greetings

Markus
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Nov 11, 2017 4:16 AM   in response to: Markus Humm in response to: Markus Humm
Markus Humm wrote:

Am 11.11.2017 um 10:05 schrieb Rudy Velthuis (TeamB, MVP):
Mark Marks wrote:

Rudy Velthuis (TeamB, MVP) wrote:

That is, somehow, in an awkward way, flattering...

That you "think" it is flattering speaks volumes.

Still trying to help.

It is interesting, to me, you do not inquire what I am attempting
to >> help you with/accomplish. You just assert I am not trying to
help.

I don't really care what reason you give when you pretend you want
to help me.

So you do not want to know why others think you need help?

What others?

I know that Mark Marks (or whatever his real name is) doesn't want to
help me, so I don't care about his pretended reasons.
--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"If there was anything that depressed him more than his own
cynicism, it was that quite often it still wasn't as cynical as
real life."
-- Terry Pratchett (Guards! Guards!)
Markus Humm

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Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Nov 9, 2017 11:24 PM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Am 09.11.2017 um 23:23 schrieb Rudy Velthuis (TeamB, MVP):
Mark Marks wrote:

Rudy Velthuis (TeamB, MVP) wrote:

LOL! No, you are most definitely not trying to help me

You have no idea what is in my mind.

<shudder> And I don't want to know either.

But I do know what you are certainly not trying to do: help me.

Rudy, that's most likely wrong. he is trying, but not succeeding as his
attempt is made the wrong way. But that's different than "ot trying"
which is what you claim.

Greetings

Markus
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Nov 10, 2017 5:01 AM   in response to: Markus Humm in response to: Markus Humm
Markus Humm wrote:

Am 09.11.2017 um 23:23 schrieb Rudy Velthuis (TeamB, MVP):
Mark Marks wrote:

Rudy Velthuis (TeamB, MVP) wrote:

LOL! No, you are most definitely not trying to help me

You have no idea what is in my mind.

<shudder> And I don't want to know either.

But I do know what you are certainly not trying to do: help me.

Rudy, that's most likely wrong. he is trying, but not succeeding

Nah. He is certainly not trying to help me. He is very likely trying to
do something, but helping me is certainly not it.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"A single death is a tragedy, a million deaths is a statistic."
-- Joseph Stalin.
Markus Humm

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Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Nov 10, 2017 6:53 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Am 10.11.2017 um 14:01 schrieb Rudy Velthuis (TeamB, MVP):
Markus Humm wrote:

Am 09.11.2017 um 23:23 schrieb Rudy Velthuis (TeamB, MVP):
Mark Marks wrote:

Rudy Velthuis (TeamB, MVP) wrote:

LOL! No, you are most definitely not trying to help me

You have no idea what is in my mind.

<shudder> And I don't want to know either.

But I do know what you are certainly not trying to do: help me.

Rudy, that's most likely wrong. he is trying, but not succeeding

Nah. He is certainly not trying to help me. He is very likely trying to
do something, but helping me is certainly not it.

You don't even ask him why he thinks you need help...

Greetings

Markus
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Nov 11, 2017 1:03 AM   in response to: Markus Humm in response to: Markus Humm
Markus Humm wrote:

Am 10.11.2017 um 14:01 schrieb Rudy Velthuis (TeamB, MVP):
Markus Humm wrote:

Am 09.11.2017 um 23:23 schrieb Rudy Velthuis (TeamB, MVP):
Mark Marks wrote:

Rudy Velthuis (TeamB, MVP) wrote:

LOL! No, you are most definitely not trying to help me

You have no idea what is in my mind.

<shudder> And I don't want to know either.

But I do know what you are certainly not trying to do: help me.

Rudy, that's most likely wrong. he is trying, but not succeeding

Nah. He is certainly not trying to help me. He is very likely
trying to do something, but helping me is certainly not it.

You don't even ask him why he thinks you need help...

I know that he doesn't care if I need help. He is not trying to help me.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

Bo Diddeley's Observation On The Law: Always take a lawyer with
you, and bring another lawyer to watch him.
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Nov 9, 2017 2:32 PM   in response to: Mark Marks in response to: Mark Marks
Mark Marks wrote:

<so sad>

So Trump (and that is not meant as a compliment). <g>
--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Good teaching is one-fourth preparation and three-fourths
theater." -- Gail Godwin
Joseph Mitzen

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Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Nov 10, 2017 7:18 PM   in response to: John David in response to: John David
John David wrote:
On 31/10/2017 13:40, Luigi Sandon wrote:
https://stackoverflow.blog/2017/10/31/disliked-programming-languages/

Embarcadero marketing has to work far better....

Embarcadero's priorities are all wrong. They are wasting time trying to
make products for Linux
when Microsoft is trying to give away products
to Linux Communities by releasing dot.net core and MSSQL for Linux.

I don't think they're making products for Linux....

Back in the days of Kylix almost every developer was developing on Windows with Windows as their main target. They wanted a button on their Windows Delphi IDEs labeled "Export to Linux" that would produce a server/CLI version of their program to run on Linux-running mainframes. Instead, we got a Linux desktop GUI that needed to be run on Linux when the Linux desktop was in early days and very poor shape. I tried running one back then - no 3D graphics support, no driver for my sound card, and with read-only support for NTFS and no Linux file system support in Windows it meant whatever you made in Linux stayed in Linux. Linux developers were firmly entrenched in C++ and had a state-of-the-art C++ compiler. Delphi also required shipping a proprietary binary blog with your open source code or statically linking it in (both no-nos in the Linux world). It failed.

Fast forward to today, when Linux dominates in enterprise and servers, when cross-platform is the norm, when Stack Overflow surveys show 50% of developers do their work on either OS X or Linux and even Microsoft supports Linux now. Now instead of getting a cross-platform GUI to create Linux apps or create cross-platform apps while working in Linux we finally get the "Export to Linux" button in a Windows-only IDE. :-(

They've always been out of step.

Embarcadero is making products for Linux to SELL but they should know
that Borland Kylix was a failure because Linux people don't pay for
products or if they pay then they are called donations by paying $5 or
$10 at most.

Linux users do indeed pay for products - JetBrains' IDEs and Sublime Text come to mind. Linux users generally don't need to pay for software because of the plethora of high-caliber open source software available to them. Heck, I'm typing this right now from a Linux desktop that I believe has 100% open source software on it minus a driver or two and Flash. Kylix failed because Linux users had higher-quality solutions available and Kylix's licensing restrictions made using it to produce true open source software highly problematic (you needed to include a proprietary binary runtime blob with your code). Also, Delphi Enterprise isn't targeted at the Linux user - no Linux user is going to pay $3500 to then need to run a Windows-only IDE to produce server-only code whose codegen is 50% slower than Delphi on Windows. They can use gcc or clang and Qt and produce cross-platform GUI code for free or use FreePascal if they must program in Pascal.

Embarcadero made a start by releasing Starter Editions for Windows

It wasn't even a start; it was too little, too late. More than a year and a half had gone by after Microsoft released Visual Studio Community Edition for free. A crippled IDE that is limited to producing 32bit Windows code wasn't even a response (in fact, the first announcement EMBT made after VSCE was announced was a message saying to upgrade now before prices rose at the start of the year!).

now
they should do the same for Linux and Mac and this should get them to
start making Apps. This increases the user base and then start charging
something when the number is large enough to make it viable.

The problem, as you seemed to touch on with VS Code, is that there already is a massive amount of enterprise quality open source software available. Even free versions of Delphi for Linux and Macs won't be enough to get people to put down the free, uncrippled software they're already using now.

Today if a kid wants to program he or she plugs in a flash drive, installs a copy of Arch Linux, and in short order has every compiler/interpreter for every language they're interested in for free, along with IDEs, GUI toolkits, DVCS software, bug-tracking software, wikis, documentation generator, continuous integration software, databases from the tiny (SQLite) to the massively scalable (PostgreSQL), etc. A tool collection like Phabricator is a good example of everything you need in one open source toolbox - https://phacility.com/phabricator/ . Borland saw this coming - no one needs to pay for development tools anymore.

Now, I fully agree with you that building an ecosystem of users first and monetizing later is the way to go today - in fact, it's required when there are already established players in the marketplace. But in Embarcadero's case it may be too late to simply drop a free sawed-off copy. They also need to offer compelling features to make up for the niche nature and lack of ecosystem of their product. In short, they need to be bold, which is the exact opposite of what their existing, legacy software-maintaining customers want. They're really between a rock and a hard place here. If they'd never fought with RemObjects and bought/partnered/imitated JetBrains it would be a completely different product today. JetBrains was able to snatch up ex-Borland employees and find great success selling (very cheap but class-leading) IDEs and RemObjects was able to reimagine Pascal for the 21st century and evolve a product that runs on JVM, .NET or bare metal. Put those two together and that could have been Delphi. Maybe an acquisition of Qt would have given them a stable, mature cross-platform GUI toolkit superior to FireMonkey that fully supported Linux too. Instead they've spent their time acquiring third-party library vendors and now a dying Javascript framework.

Edited by: Joseph Mitzen on Nov 10, 2017 7:19 PM
Yogi Yang

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Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Dec 11, 2017 6:49 AM   in response to: John David in response to: John David
John David wrote:
On 31/10/2017 13:40, Luigi Sandon wrote:

Embarcadero is making products for Linux to SELL but they should know
that Borland Kylix was a failure because Linux people don't pay for
products or if they pay then they are called donations by paying $5 or
$10 at most.
I don't think Delphi is developed for Linux developers. It is primarily developed for Windows developers who wants to compile their software for other platforms all the while working on Windows platform. So price is not a concern. Almost all serious developers working in Delphi will surely pay (complaining like hippocrates) for being able to build applications for multiple platforms from one code base.

It is a kind of Nirvana they are dreaming about and hoping for.

In this area Delphi is not the only player there are many other tools that allow one to build cross platform applications like for example Xojo, WinDev, Lianja (https://www.lianja.com/), LiveApps (https://liveapps.center/), etc.
Michael Thuma

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Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Nov 2, 2017 6:12 AM   in response to: Luigi Sandon in response to: Luigi Sandon
I'd guess that people dislike what they have to implement or better said what to maintain. Think of PERL being the No. 1.

If a language used for XYZ and you don't want to do XYZ then simply say, 'Dislike the language' and you don't get such jobs.

That's the simple reason or one reason among many.

The more older a software gets there is still a tendency to invest less and less (which was not a bad idea in the 90s) and more and more the piece of software tends to involve into ear cactus solution or kind Wolpertinger.

A solid rework from scratch no one really wants to afford. Better the devil you know ...


Luigi Sandon wrote:
https://stackoverflow.blog/2017/10/31/disliked-programming-languages/

Embarcadero marketing has to work far better....

--
Delphi Programming is fun. Hilarious.
Alexandre Machado

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Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Nov 6, 2017 1:39 PM   in response to: Luigi Sandon in response to: Luigi Sandon
Luigi Sandon wrote:
https://stackoverflow.blog/2017/10/31/disliked-programming-languages/

Embarcadero marketing has to work far better....

Quote from the original post:

"To keep our analysis consistent with the last few posts, we’ll limit the statistics to high-income countries (such as the US, UK, Germany, and Canada)."

What does it mean? For me, means that the numbers are useless at least.
Joseph Mitzen

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Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Nov 10, 2017 7:34 PM   in response to: Alexandre Machado in response to: Alexandre Machado
Alexandre Machado wrote:

What does it mean? For me, means that the numbers are useless at least.

If you read the last few posts, you would learn why they were doing that. This is the key post and it's fascinating:

https://stackoverflow.blog/2017/08/29/tale-two-industries-programming-languages-differ-wealthy-developing-countries/

I dare suggest that for obvious reasons you shouldn't expect Delphi to be more popular in the poorest nations given its high price tag (and lack of sales infrastructure for those nations; I doubt Embarcadero has a big sales presence in Eritrea, Malawi or Burundi. I think this data presented here is more of a "best case scenario" already for Delphi.

Edited by: Joseph Mitzen on Nov 10, 2017 7:34 PM
Alexandre Machado

Posts: 14
Registered: 5/16/15
Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Nov 12, 2017 12:10 PM   in response to: Joseph Mitzen in response to: Joseph Mitzen
Joseph Mitzen wrote:
Alexandre Machado wrote:

What does it mean? For me, means that the numbers are useless at least.

If you read the last few posts, you would learn why they were doing that. This is the key post and it's fascinating:

https://stackoverflow.blog/2017/08/29/tale-two-industries-programming-languages-differ-wealthy-developing-countries/

I dare suggest that for obvious reasons you shouldn't expect Delphi to be more popular in the poorest nations given its high price tag (and lack of sales infrastructure for those nations; I doubt Embarcadero has a big sales presence in Eritrea, Malawi or Burundi. I think this data presented here is more of a "best case scenario" already for Delphi.

Edited by: Joseph Mitzen on Nov 10, 2017 7:34 PM

I'm not interested in why they are doing that. Really.
Delphi/Pascal are more popular in Russia and Brazil than in US. That's a fact. It has always been like that, even in mid-90's.
The price tag is not a problem for people using pirated copies. Has never been. You don't need to purchase a licensed copy to hate or love a language.
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Nov 14, 2017 5:24 AM   in response to: Alexandre Machado in response to: Alexandre Machado
Alexandre Machado wrote:

Joseph Mitzen wrote:
Alexandre Machado wrote:

What does it mean? For me, means that the numbers are useless at
least.

If you read the last few posts, you would learn why they were doing
that. This is the key post and it's fascinating:

https://stackoverflow.blog/2017/08/29/tale-two-industries-programming-languages-differ-wealthy-developing-countries/

I dare suggest that for obvious reasons you shouldn't expect Delphi
to be more popular in the poorest nations given its high price tag
(and lack of sales infrastructure for those nations; I doubt
Embarcadero has a big sales presence in Eritrea, Malawi or Burundi.
I think this data presented here is more of a "best case scenario"
already for Delphi.

Edited by: Joseph Mitzen on Nov 10, 2017 7:34 PM

I'm not interested in why they are doing that. Really.
Delphi/Pascal are more popular in Russia and Brazil than in US.

Also still very popular in Europe. Perhaps not as popular as in the
beginning, but there will always be newer, more "interesting" and
better hyped toys around. Doesn't mean they are better languages, just
that they are more popular. Just like pop music is generally more
popular than classical music, or Coke more popular than proper drinks.
<g

--
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"Before we blame, we should first see if we can excuse."
-- G. C. Lichtenberg
Ede Csanádi

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Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Nov 11, 2017 5:24 PM   in response to: Luigi Sandon in response to: Luigi Sandon
Type inference is not needed. Delphi is a strongly typed language and that's what it is. That's why it's Delphi. The problems are the bugs and the price. The starter edition should contain all the platforms with the only exception that money making use is not allowed. For money making use for example one should have to buy the Professional version which again should contain all the platforms including the mobile pack and Linux, and the price should be at least half, I would say €500 for it would be reasonable. Beginners could start using Delphi and that would mean more customers for the paid versions in the future.
Joseph Mitzen

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Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Nov 12, 2017 8:55 PM   in response to: Ede Csanádi in response to: Ede Csanádi
Ede Csanádi wrote:
Type inference is not needed. Delphi is a strongly typed language and that's what it is.

Type inference involves static typing, but removes the pedantic declarations. You get the power of static types with most of the ease and boilerplate reduction of dynamic types at no extra cost. There hasn't been a statically typed language introduced this century that didn't have type inference and it's even been backported to some older languages such as C++/
Kim Madsen

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Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Nov 13, 2017 1:12 AM   in response to: Joseph Mitzen in response to: Joseph Mitzen
I cant say Im fond of type inference in general.

Id way better prefer actually being able to see what the intended type
is, than the compiler dreaming up one for me depending on what the
variable has been used for.

In fact its very close to variants in functionality (I know ... I
know... not in actual generated code), if one extended the variant with
a check for if the value type was already determined at next assignment.

For few scenarios, I suppose type inference can be good, because it
actually solves a problem. Perhaps in combination with anonymous methods
and generics and such, type inference could assist.

But in others, its a solution looking for a problem, and imo actually
creating a problem of its own.

Many of these "new inventions" really are not new. Actually the
predecessor for BCPL named CPL, had type inference.

You may now know what BCPL is, but its the predecessor to B, which is
the predecessor to C, which is the predecessor to C++, Java and C# syntaxes.

In fact Visual Basic had type inference from v9, and so did other
various versions of BASIC.

The last couple of years it has been Javascript (and its standardized
cousin Ecmascript) that has been popular. It was from start a very type
loose language, with very few rules to what one is allowed to do.

Too loose for some... in fact it reminds me of the good old spaghetti in
the old days.

No. In general type inference is not a great new invention. It is imo
not even of great use today.

best regards
Kim/C4D

On 13/11/2017 05.55, Joseph Mitzen wrote:

Ede Csanádi wrote:
Type inference is not needed. Delphi is a strongly typed language and that's what it is.

Type inference involves static typing, but removes the pedantic declarations. You get the power of static types with most of the ease and boilerplate reduction of dynamic types at no extra cost. There hasn't been a statically typed language introduced this century that didn't have type inference and it's even been backported to some older languages such as C++/
Markus Humm

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Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Nov 13, 2017 2:06 PM   in response to: Kim Madsen in response to: Kim Madsen
Am 13.11.2017 um 10:12 schrieb Kim Madsen:
I cant say Im fond of type inference in general.

Id way better prefer actually being able to see what the intended type
is, than the compiler dreaming up one for me depending on what the
variable has been used for.

Isn't this a bit like if the compiler would warn about unused public
methods? Who can he know who's goint to use that class in the future or
in another project?

Now how can he know how a variable is being used in the future or by
somebody else he doesn't know about yet? Ok, in another project he might
select a different type then, but maybe that's going to be incompatible.

I'm not sure type inference is being used too much in strongly typed
languages, even if it is available in that language.

Greetings

Markus
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Nov 14, 2017 6:10 AM   in response to: Markus Humm in response to: Markus Humm
Markus Humm wrote:

Am 13.11.2017 um 10:12 schrieb Kim Madsen:
I cant say Im fond of type inference in general.

Id way better prefer actually being able to see what the intended
type is, than the compiler dreaming up one for me depending on what
the variable has been used for.

Isn't this a bit like if the compiler would warn about unused public
methods? Who can he know who's goint to use that class in the future
or in another project?

Now how can he know how a variable is being used in the future or by
somebody else he doesn't know about yet?

That is not what type inference is about. It is more like:

var
A = 17;
B = 'Hello';

Type inference makes much more sense when a variable is declared and
defined in the same spot. In the above, it is pretty clear that A is an
integral value (probably a Shortint or Byte - shouldn't matter, and if
it matters, you can always give it an explicit type) and that B is a
string.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"If Stupidity got us into this mess, then why can't it get us
out?" -- Will Rogers (1879-1935)

Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Nov 14, 2017 6:07 AM   in response to: Kim Madsen in response to: Kim Madsen
Kim Madsen wrote:

I cant say Im fond of type inference in general.

Id way better prefer actually being able to see what the intended type
is, than the compiler dreaming up one for me depending on what the
variable has been used for.

It is a bit like for constants in Delphi now, and hardly anyone has any
problems with true constants.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"If computers get too powerful, we can organize them into a
committee - that will do them in."
Kim Madsen

Posts: 350
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Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Nov 14, 2017 6:43 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
With the difference that it is assuming inline variable declaration.
Something supported in C since its inception, but also loathed for years
by C++ purists, why they now have the (ugly) variable declaration and
initialization section as part for the constructor.

For simple loops, I can somehow see that declaring a variable with type
is slightly cumbersome. However even though, I still prefer seeing what
local variables Im using in a method up front, in the var section,
rather than having to browse thru the code to locate the inline defined
ones.

So type inference not only require the type inference itself, but also
inline definition to be somewhat useful. And that messes with my simple
overview of what variables are on my stack.

soooo... Im back to not liking type inference :)

It is a bit like for constants in Delphi now, and hardly anyone has any
problems with true constants.

best regards
Kim/C4D

Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Nov 15, 2017 11:30 PM   in response to: Kim Madsen in response to: Kim Madsen
Kim Madsen wrote:

With the difference that it is assuming inline variable declaration.

No, not necessarily, although that would make certain things easier.
But it just assumes the possibility of initialization at declaration,
as I gave as an example. That is still in the var section of a
function, so not inline.

Alternatively:

var
X: auto;
begin
X := 'Hello, world!';

Heck, this is not rocket science and it would not rock the Delphi boat
too much either.
--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Whatever the natural cause, sin is the true cause of all
earthquakes."
-- John Wesley
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Nov 15, 2017 11:34 PM   in response to: Kim Madsen in response to: Kim Madsen
Kim Madsen wrote:

With the difference that it is assuming inline variable declaration.

No, see my other reply.

The main purpose of type inference is DRY.

type
X: TList<MyOwnType>;
begin
X := TList<MyOwnType>.Create;

You have to specify TList<MyOwnType> twice. But the compiler can easily
infer from the assignment line what type X is supposed to be:

type
X: auto;
begin
X := TList<MyOwnType>.Create;

No repetition required. And just as type safe. And no inline
declaration required.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"There's a door."
"Where does it go?"
"It stays where it is, I think."
-- Terry Pratchett (Eric)

Kim Madsen

Posts: 350
Registered: 12/13/99
Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Nov 16, 2017 4:05 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
True, thats a way to do it, still having somewhat of an overview of the
variables. But I still can't see from it, how much space it is taking up
on the stack.

And using that syntax imo mostly voids the actual reason to using
typeinference, namely limiting verboseness and thus typing, which
require putting it inline.

A better option would be to be able to go the other way around:

var
x:TList<MyOwnType>;
begin
x.Create(....); // Or x.New(....) to differentiate between
// class proc and old constructor.
.... now x is initialized
end;

Thus saving slightly on the typing.

But honestly.. it doesnt bother me much to having to write
TList<MyOwnType>.Create.

It is clean and shows exactly what I want to do without any potential
ambiguity.

So... still no good reason for type inference or the reverse has been
shown ;)

best regards
Kim/C4D

On 16/11/2017 08.34, Rudy Velthuis (TeamB, MVP) wrote:

Kim Madsen wrote:

With the difference that it is assuming inline variable declaration.

No, see my other reply.

The main purpose of type inference is DRY.

type
X: TList<MyOwnType>;
begin
X := TList<MyOwnType>.Create;

You have to specify TList<MyOwnType> twice. But the compiler can easily
infer from the assignment line what type X is supposed to be:

type
X: auto;
begin
X := TList<MyOwnType>.Create;

No repetition required. And just as type safe. And no inline
declaration required.

Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Nov 16, 2017 5:47 AM   in response to: Kim Madsen in response to: Kim Madsen
Kim Madsen wrote:

True, thats a way to do it, still having somewhat of an overview of
the variables. But I still can't see from it, how much space it is
taking up on the stack.

You should not care. After all, the compiler can tell and that is what
matters. It would make the compiler a little more complicated, but I
don't think it would matter a lot.

And using that syntax imo mostly voids the actual reason to using
typeinference, namely limiting verboseness and thus typing, which
require putting it inline.

Not at all. The main reason is to prevent having to repeat yourself.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Foreign aid is when the poor people of a rich country give
money to the rich people of a poor country."
-- Gary Hart, BC Comic Strip

Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Nov 14, 2017 5:34 AM   in response to: Ede Csanádi in response to: Ede Csanádi
Ede Csanádi wrote:

Type inference is not needed. Delphi is a strongly typed language and
that's what it is.

type inference is not the same as dynamic typing or weak typing. Type
inference can be a big help in strongly typed languages, and it doesn't
make them less strongly typed. Heck, even C++ has it, these days.

Type inference merely means that a type can often (not always) be
inferred from the data. It is in fact already done, in Delphi, e.g.
when defining true constants:

const
MyConst = 12345;
MyStr = 'Hello';

MyConst is now an integer (and not e.g. a string or Char or Single).
The type is inferred from the data, from the value 12345. MyStr is
obviously a string (and not e.g. a Char, Integer or Extended).

It can also be done for variables, using the same rules.
--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Radioactive cats have 18 half-lives."
Kim Madsen

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Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Nov 14, 2017 6:45 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Basically, except for the missing inlined typing, you could create type
infered variables by allowing updatable constants by using
{$WRITEABLECONST ON}

http://docs.embarcadero.com/products/rad_studio/delphiAndcpp2009/HelpUpdate2/EN/html/devcommon/compdirswriteabletypedconstants_xml.html

I still dont like type inference ;)


const
MyConst = 12345;
MyStr = 'Hello';

MyConst is now an integer (and not e.g. a string or Char or Single).
The type is inferred from the data, from the value 12345. MyStr is
obviously a string (and not e.g. a Char, Integer or Extended).

It can also be done for variables, using the same rules.
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Nov 16, 2017 5:20 AM   in response to: Kim Madsen in response to: Kim Madsen
Kim Madsen wrote:

Basically, except for the missing inlined typing, you could create
type infered variables by allowing updatable constants by using
{$WRITEABLECONST ON}

http://docs.embarcadero.com/products/rad_studio/delphiAndcpp2009/HelpUpdate2/EN/html/devcommon/compdirswriteabletypedconstants_xml.html

I still dont like type inference ;)

As I wrote before, I think it makes a lot of sense. It keeps you from
repeating the type, as it can be inferred from the assignment.

Sure, I would personally like to combine it with inlined declaration
and initialization. That combination would make it much more useful:

begin
// some code
var I := 17;
// Now I is an integral type with value 17, valid until the end of
the block.

This would make block-local variables a lot easier to define too.,
including stuff like:

for I := 1 to 100 do

No need to predeclare I, it would follow from the assignment. It would
only be valid during the for-statement. The IDE already provides
something like it, and it would then be part of the language, making
certain things a lot easier while NOT reducing the readability.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"That is the saving grace of humor, if you fail no one is laughing
at you." -- A. Whitney Brown
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Nov 14, 2017 7:46 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB, MVP) wrote:

Ede Csanádi wrote:

Type inference is not needed. Delphi is a strongly typed language
and that's what it is.

type inference is not the same as dynamic typing or weak typing.

FWIW, Delphi is also weakly typed (and dynamically typed), e.g. when it
uses variants.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"As nightfall does not come at once, neither does oppression. In
both instances, there is a twilight when everything remains
unchanged. And it is in such twilight that we all must be most
aware of change in the air - however slight - lest we become
unwitting victims of the darkness."
-- Supreme Court Justice William O. Douglas
Denville Longhu...

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Registered: 3/4/06
Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Dec 8, 2017 9:07 AM   in response to: Luigi Sandon in response to: Luigi Sandon
Luigi Sandon wrote:
https://stackoverflow.blog/2017/10/31/disliked-programming-languages/

Embarcadero marketing has to work far better....

Well, I'm new to the forum, arrived here looking at Intraweb stuff, and stumbled indirectly on this interesting thread.

To be honest, I started speed reading a quarter of the way through but I felt moved to add my own little rant.

I worry (no actually I am sorry to think) that E (and thus Delphi and C++ Builder) are definitely dead in the water. It seems to me that the only thing going for it is its ambition to develop once for the variety of platforms now out there; they may well have an edge here but it won't last. And I am so sorry. I speak as a veteran since the first days - I actually program in c++ so the discourse about Delphi and Pascal is outside my competence. But C++ builder change my life (well almost!). And I still maintain and develop anew using my trusty C++ builder version 6 from who knows how many years ago. Yes, I have upgraded twice, the first remains what they call ShelfWare, having looked at it and decided it offered nowt new and a steep (for me) learning curve trying to do it. The second time was XE7 and that sat on the same shelf for years until a few weeks ago I was set a challenge to write some Webby stuff and it quickly became clear that Intrweb was, for me, the goose that laid the golden egg, so I dusted off XE7 and jumped in. And I am in awe of Intraweb, almost to the same extent as I am frustrated by their documentation (but great personal service, I just don't like having to ask).

So where is this leading - well, the biggest reason E and D and CPB are or soon will be dead is simple and inevitable - Microsoft. They invented the Emperor's New Clothes (sorry, dot net c sharp) and, like the biggest supermarkets, they set up stall next to the competitors and drove them out of business. And we have all been taken in - although virtually retired I have lost count of my former clients who have voiced the same sentiment - "We've seen the future - it's C Sharp Dot Net - we are introducing a corporate policy that everything now has to be thus". (As a musician I think c sharp (do you know, I can't find the sharp character on this my son's Apple keyboard) is the most difficult key of all to play in.)

And that's it, really. I don't see what anybody can do do about it. I use VS quite a bit out of necessity and I note E's drive to make the UI as bad (sorry as much) like Microsoft's as possible, but that's not going to make a hap'orth of difference. Your contributors who say that NOBODY is going to learn Delphi after they have been taught another language or two (probably c sharp) at school / college are quite right, simply because they will go with the emperor. I sometimes wonder if it might have been better to develop a sort of C sharp Builder (this sharp thing is a nuisance) and to include Linux Desktop among the supported platforms, then at least the programming skills would be across the board and perhaps they could concentrate on selling the variety of platforms - but I doubt it in the long term. Which is a very great shame because without lively competition Microsoft's product will just stagnate - that's the way of things.
Mark Wallin

Posts: 9
Registered: 2/8/01
Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Dec 10, 2017 5:55 PM   in response to: Denville Longhu... in response to: Denville Longhu...
Denville Longhurst wrote:

I sometimes wonder if it might have been better to develop a sort of C sharp Builder (this sharp thing is a nuisance) and to include Linux Desktop among the supported platforms, then at least the programming skills would be across the board and perhaps they could concentrate on selling the variety of platforms - but I doubt it in the long term.

They did: 2003-2005 I believe, then it was discontinued like so many other offerings.

Edited by: Mark Wallin on Dec 10, 2017 5:56 PM

Edited by: Mark Wallin on Dec 10, 2017 5:58 PM
Mike Margerum

Posts: 583
Registered: 12/1/99
Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Dec 12, 2017 11:16 AM   in response to: Denville Longhu... in response to: Denville Longhu...
Well, you are right that m$ may drive them out of business but not
because Visual Studio is good or because it's free. m$ destroyed the
windows desktop development when they killed off VB6 and stopped
development of C++/MFC/WTL. This accelerated the move to web front ends
and now I would argue toolkits like Vue are actually superior to
traditional desktops for most app types. Obviously there are some
problem domains where a real GUI would be better.

On 12/8/17 12:07 PM, Denville Longhurst wrote:
Luigi Sandon wrote:
https://stackoverflow.blog/2017/10/31/disliked-programming-languages/

Embarcadero marketing has to work far better....

Well, I'm new to the forum, arrived here looking at Intraweb stuff, and stumbled indirectly on this interesting thread.

To be honest, I started speed reading a quarter of the way through but I felt moved to add my own little rant.

I worry (no actually I am sorry to think) that E (and thus Delphi and C++ Builder) are definitely dead in the water. It seems to me that the only thing going for it is its ambition to develop once for the variety of platforms now out there; they may well have an edge here but it won't last. And I am so sorry. I speak as a veteran since the first days - I actually program in c++ so the discourse about Delphi and Pascal is outside my competence. But C++ builder change my life (well almost!). And I stil
l maintain and develop anew using my trusty C++ builder version 6 from who knows how many years ago. Yes, I have upgraded twice, the first remains what they call ShelfWare, having looked at it and decided it offered nowt new and a steep (for me) learning curve trying to do it. The second time was XE7 and that sat on the same shelf for years until a few weeks ago I was set a challenge to write some Webby stuff and it quickly became clear that Intrweb was, for me, the goose that laid the golden egg, so I
dusted off XE7 and jumped in. And I am in awe of Intraweb, almost to the same extent as I am frustrated by their documentation (but great personal service, I just don't like having to ask).

So where is this leading - well, the biggest reason E and D and CPB are or soon will be dead is simple and inevitable - Microsoft. They invented the Emperor's New Clothes (sorry, dot net c sharp) and, like the biggest supermarkets, they set up stall next to the competitors and drove them out of business. And we have all been taken in - although virtually retired I have lost count of my former clients who have voiced the same sentiment - "We've seen the future - it's C Sharp Dot Net - we are introducing
a corporate policy that everything now has to be thus". (As a musician I think c sharp (do you know, I can't find the sharp character on this my son's Apple keyboard) is the most difficult key of all to play in.)

And that's it, really. I don't see what anybody can do do about it. I use VS quite a bit out of necessity and I note E's drive to make the UI as bad (sorry as much) like Microsoft's as possible, but that's not going to make a hap'orth of difference. Your contributors who say that NOBODY is going to learn Delphi after they have been taught another language or two (probably c sharp) at school / college are quite right, simply because they will go with the emperor. I sometimes wonder if it might have bee
n better to develop a sort of C sharp Builder (this sharp thing is a nuisance) and to include Linux Desktop among the supported platforms, then at least the programming skills would be across the board and perhaps they could concentrate on selling the variety of platforms - but I doubt it in the long term. Which is a very great shame because without lively competition Microsoft's product will just stagnate - that's the way of things.
Steve Jordi

Posts: 110
Registered: 4/19/98
Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Dec 10, 2017 7:38 AM   in response to: Luigi Sandon in response to: Luigi Sandon
On 2017-10-31 13:40:44 +0000, Luigi Sandon said:

https://stackoverflow.blog/2017/10/31/disliked-programming-languages/

Embarcadero marketing has to work far better....

Well, Delphi may be #2 most hated language but isn't Stack Overflow
the #1 hated web interface for its... so-called non-sense interface ?
:-)

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Steve JORDI - MSc in Geophysics/Volcanology

Geneva, Switzerland / Portland, OR, USA
Chad Hower

Posts: 575
Registered: 3/2/07
Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Dec 10, 2017 9:28 AM   in response to: Steve Jordi in response to: Steve Jordi
On 12/10/2017 11:38 AM, Steve Jordi wrote:
Well, Delphi may be #2 most hated language but isn't Stack Overflow
the #1 hated web interface for its... so-called non-sense interface ?

And its infamous hostile trolls who are "rewarded" for being so it seems.
Rudy Velthuis (...


Posts: 7,684
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Dec 12, 2017 4:45 AM   in response to: Steve Jordi in response to: Steve Jordi
Steve Jordi wrote:

On 2017-10-31 13:40:44 +0000, Luigi Sandon said:

https://stackoverflow.blog/2017/10/31/disliked-programming-languages/

Embarcadero marketing has to work far better....

Well, Delphi may be #2 most hated language but isn't Stack Overflow
the #1 hated web interface for its... so-called non-sense interface ?
:-)

I hate web interfaces (prefer NNTP), but Stack Overflow is one of the
interfaces I can live with. What is non-sense about it?

And the trolls Chad mentions? Yes, they exist, but in the Delphi tags
on S.O. I don't find many. S.O. is a very helpful site and I have found
many many answers on questions I had there.

I do however doubt that Delphi is one of the most disliked languages.
Another survey found out (also on S.O. using some kind of other
metrics) that Delphi users are the most satisfied.

All that shows that such statistics are not really very expressive, and
usually severely flawed. They can simply not be trusted. They measure
something, sure, but not necessarily what people think they do. The
same goes for sites like TIOBE etc. They certainly measure something,
but not necessarily what people claim they measure.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"If one were to take the bible seriously one would go mad. But
to take the bible seriously, one must be already mad."
-- Aleister Crowley
Denville Longhu...

Posts: 57
Registered: 3/4/06
Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Dec 12, 2017 6:25 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB, MVP) wrote:
Steve Jordi wrote:

On 2017-10-31 13:40:44 +0000, Luigi Sandon said:

https://stackoverflow.blog/2017/10/31/disliked-programming-languages/

Embarcadero marketing has to work far better....

Well, Delphi may be #2 most hated language but isn't Stack Overflow
the #1 hated web interface for its... so-called non-sense interface ?
:-)

I hate web interfaces (prefer NNTP), but Stack Overflow is one of the
interfaces I can live with. What is non-sense about it?

And the trolls Chad mentions? Yes, they exist, but in the Delphi tags
on S.O. I don't find many. S.O. is a very helpful site and I have found
many many answers on questions I had there.

I do however doubt that Delphi is one of the most disliked languages.
Another survey found out (also on S.O. using some kind of other
metrics) that Delphi users are the most satisfied.

All that shows that such statistics are not really very expressive, and
usually severely flawed. They can simply not be trusted. They measure
something, sure, but not necessarily what people think they do. The
same goes for sites like TIOBE etc. They certainly measure something,
but not necessarily what people claim they measure.

Much as I hate the idea, it is all down to that irresistable force called FASHION. Delphi programmers were at one time the happiest people on the planet (along with C++ programmers like me). I have lost count of how many colleigues I converted to one or the other just by dropping three components on a form, entering a table name, and - voila, no need even to compile it ! How I remember our smiling faces as we put Petzold back on the shelf for the last time. But fashion changes, the next generation are taken in by the emperor's new clothes, and NOTHING you can do will alter that, no matter how much harder the job becomes.

Only recently I demonstrated how a simple job could be done, I even wrote 90% of the code in a day. I later heard that the job was currently projected to take over a year, require a couple of servers, IIS, dot this c that, continual maintenance and an almost impossible security audit.

The problem with Delphi is that all us happy souls are the previous generation; sooner of later we will be phased out, and the next generation will want to abide by their trendy fashion. Don't believe me ? Who would have believed that Jeans with artificial tears and mends would become the must-have of today?
Clement Doss

Posts: 72
Registered: 3/26/00
Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Dec 12, 2017 7:51 AM   in response to: Denville Longhu... in response to: Denville Longhu...

Much as I hate the idea, it is all down to that irresistable force called FASHION. Delphi programmers were at one time the happiest people on the planet (along with C++ programmers like me). I have lost count of how many colleigues I converted to one or the other just by dropping three components on a form, entering a table name, and - voila, no need even to compile it ! How I remember our smiling faces as we put Petzold back on the shelf for the last time. But fashion changes, the next generation are taken in by the emperor's new clothes, and NOTHING you can do will alter that, no matter how much harder the job becomes.

Same movie different actors. Customer wants their project in a budget on time. If delphi can deliver it, it can be used. If another language fits better the project then that language will be use. Who decide which one to use? Fashion? a seriously doubt that!
If you know 10 languages you will stick to those 10 for any project. If someone suggest an unknown language he will be toasted! That's the problem with Delphi. Most still think it's unsuitable for a job because they don't have experience with it.


Only recently I demonstrated how a simple job could be done, I even wrote 90% of the code in a day. I later heard that the job was currently projected to take over a year, require a couple of servers, IIS, dot this c that, continual maintenance and an almost impossible security audit.

The problem with Delphi is that all us happy souls are the previous generation; sooner of later we will be phased out, and the next generation will want to abide by their trendy fashion. Don't believe me ? Who would have believed that Jeans with artificial tears and mends would become the must-have of today?

I give you that it's very hard to compete with IIS, dot this c that... but it's still doable. And it very simple actually. A simple cost/benefit will do it. For example: In a cloud structure I demonstrated to my customer that my Delphi solution (RestServer 100% written by me (no RAD this or DataSnap that)) is faster, uses less memory, less Disk and less processors that his IIS based solution. They ask to reduce their cloud server resources ( namely the monthly fee) and it's still faster and resource friendly! My problem is still with delphi price and maintain my solution competitive (price wise).

Clément
Denville Longhu...

Posts: 57
Registered: 3/4/06
Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Dec 13, 2017 2:52 AM   in response to: Clement Doss in response to: Clement Doss
Clement Doss wrote:

Much as I hate the idea, it is all down to that irresistable force called FASHION. Delphi programmers were at one time the happiest people on the planet (along with C++ programmers like me). I have lost count of how many colleigues I converted to one or the other just by dropping three components on a form, entering a table name, and - voila, no need even to compile it ! How I remember our smiling faces as we put Petzold back on the shelf for the last time. But fashion changes, the next generation are taken in by the emperor's new clothes, and NOTHING you can do will alter that, no matter how much harder the job becomes.

Same movie different actors. Customer wants their project in a budget on time. If delphi can deliver it, it can be used. If another language fits better the project then that language will be use. Who decide which one to use? Fashion? a seriously doubt that!
If you know 10 languages you will stick to those 10 for any project. If someone suggest an unknown language he will be toasted! That's the problem with Delphi. Most still think it's unsuitable for a job because they don't have experience with it.


Only recently I demonstrated how a simple job could be done, I even wrote 90% of the code in a day. I later heard that the job was currently projected to take over a year, require a couple of servers, IIS, dot this c that, continual maintenance and an almost impossible security audit.

The problem with Delphi is that all us happy souls are the previous generation; sooner of later we will be phased out, and the next generation will want to abide by their trendy fashion. Don't believe me ? Who would have believed that Jeans with artificial tears and mends would become the must-have of today?

I give you that it's very hard to compete with IIS, dot this c that... but it's still doable. And it very simple actually. A simple cost/benefit will do it. For example: In a cloud structure I demonstrated to my customer that my Delphi solution (RestServer 100% written by me (no RAD this or DataSnap that)) is faster, uses less memory, less Disk and less processors that his IIS based solution. They ask to reduce their cloud server resources ( namely the monthly fee) and it's still faster and resource friendly! My problem is still with delphi price and maintain my solution competitive (price wise).

Clément

I should have written "I recently demonstrated -in C++ Builder- (but might just have well been Delphi) .... But it fell on deaf ears. Corporate policy was Microsoft. Nowt else considered. I am now coming across this mantra as if it were the new religion.
Roy Lambert

Posts: 1,063
Registered: 8/7/01
Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Dec 13, 2017 5:26 AM   in response to: Denville Longhu... in response to: Denville Longhu...
Denville

I should have written "I recently demonstrated -in C++ Builder- (but might just have well been Delphi) .... But it fell on deaf ears. Corporate policy was Microsoft. Nowt else considered. I am now coming across this mantra as if it were the new religion.

Obviously a youngster <G>. It changed from "you can't be fired for buying IBM" to "you can't be fired for buying MIcrosoft" a few decades back.

Roy
Roy Lambert

Posts: 1,063
Registered: 8/7/01
Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Dec 12, 2017 7:42 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy

I hate web interfaces (prefer NNTP), but Stack Overflow is one of the
interfaces I can live with. What is non-sense about it?

And the trolls Chad mentions? Yes, they exist, but in the Delphi tags
on S.O. I don't find many. S.O. is a very helpful site and I have found
many many answers on questions I had there.

I may have to go and shoot myself, on these two I find myself in full agreement with you.

Roy
Markus Humm

Posts: 5,062
Registered: 11/9/03
Re: StackOverflow: Delphi 2nd most disliked language
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  Posted: Dec 12, 2017 10:05 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Am 12.12.2017 um 13:45 schrieb Rudy Velthuis (TeamB, MVP):


All that shows that such statistics are not really very expressive, and
usually severely flawed. They can simply not be trusted. They measure
something, sure, but not necessarily what people think they do. The
same goes for sites like TIOBE etc. They certainly measure something,
but not necessarily what people claim they measure.

Now that you mention Tiobe:

In November Delphi was at 9th place, compared with place 16 in November
2016:

https://volkuz.pro/2017/11/27/tiobe-index-november-2017/

In December it's back on place 16:

https://www.tiobe.com/tiobe-index/

Quite volatile...

Greetings

Markus
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