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Thread: Open letter to all from a maybe soon to depart Delphi enthusiast


This question is not answered. Helpful answers available: 2. Correct answers available: 1.


Permlink Replies: 16 - Last Post: Nov 1, 2017 3:03 AM Last Post By: Ronald Klitsche Threads: [ Previous | Next ]
Lodge Consultan...

Posts: 1
Registered: 8/20/04
Open letter to all from a maybe soon to depart Delphi enthusiast  
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  Posted: Oct 26, 2017 1:21 PM
This is perhaps a last cry...

As a Delphi user from DBase II (to stretch a lineage perhaps!), and a user of Delphi 1, 2, 5, 7, 10, XE6, I have always extolled the virtues of Delphi as the most effective and efficient producer of Windows based applications. Its "compile to a single exe", and its fast compiler, together with the advantages of the Pascal strong typed syntax, have always seemed to me to be major plus points.
As a single person developer whose clients have normally been looking for Windows based Client/Server applications, to be developed for straight forward installs, and with the maximum flexibility of specification, and user oriented UIs, Delphi has been the "obvious" choice.
Over the years I have looked at these forums, and gained much knowledge from all those who posted. I have read assiduously, although not contributing much myself - others seemed to know much more than I. So my thanks for TeamB and many, many others.
My next move was to recognise the need to look at Android/Apple stuff, so I upgraded to include that functionality. As it happened, after a small excursion into Android, I found other tools which worked better for me - not a criticism of Delphi.

So where are we now ...

I see a platform, which is VERY expensive for people like me, whether I take a subscription route or occasional upgrades. I see bugs all over the place, with little apparent willingness to correct bugs in "older" releases, (or even in current ones!), and even accepting that the forums may reflect a lot of dissatisfaction that "ordinary" developers don't feel, a strong feeling that the current owners of the Delphi brand are more interested in adding glamorous new features, rather than maintaining a professionally competent product.

So where do I go?

I would love to stay, but I cannot justify the high cost, coupled with the apparent lack of interest in ensuring the professional quality of the "core" functionality.

As an additional comment, I indicated my worries to the UK vendor from whom I purchased my various Delphi products. I should say that they have always been extremely professional, and I have no criticism of them. My contact suggested I expressed my concern directly to Embarcadero, which I did. The fact that I cannot remember whether they replied or not perhaps indicates where their priorities are!

Please comment on this. I would hate to go. My enthusiasm for the Delphi product is long gone - I would love to get it back!
Jeff Williams

Posts: 32
Registered: 4/19/10
Re: Open letter to all from a maybe soon to depart Delphi enthusiast  
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  Posted: Oct 26, 2017 4:54 PM   in response to: Lodge Consultan... in response to: Lodge Consultan...
Lodge Consultancy Proprietor wrote:
This is perhaps a last cry...


I would love to stay, but I cannot justify the high cost, coupled with the apparent lack of interest in ensuring the professional quality of the "core" functionality.

You're not the only one. I'll be dropping off SA this term as well. Not just the high cost, but the fact that Idera will ship something that they know is broken (Android wasn't it, that doesn't work out of the box in 10.2?) and never fix it has finally done it for me. I don't use FireMonkey, or Linux, so the there really hasn't been all that much value in the Enterprise licence that I've kept up. Fix one bug, introduce two more seems to be the development strategy, presumably in the hopes that people will buy the next version to get the fixes for the last version. Too bad they don't fix those bugs either. It's a public disgrace and it should be humiliating for everyone involved that there are bugs older than three years in the product.

I guess Idera does find it humiliating which is why the Jira interface doesn't work; I'm supposed to apply to the Jira admin just so I can view bug reports ? What a load of crap. If the product is so bad now that there's no longer public access to the bug reports, well that's not a product for which I am willing to pay any longer.
Rudy Velthuis (...


Posts: 7,731
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: Open letter to all from a maybe soon to depart Delphi enthusiast  
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  Posted: Oct 27, 2017 1:31 AM   in response to: Jeff Williams in response to: Jeff Williams
Jeff Williams wrote:

I guess Idera does find it humiliating which is why the Jira
interface doesn't work;

AFAIK, it works fine for most people. Something else must be wrong.
--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Of all the enemies to public liberty, war is perhaps the most
to be dreaded because it comprises and develops the germ of
every other." -- James Madison
Jeff Williams

Posts: 32
Registered: 4/19/10
Re: Open letter to all from a maybe soon to depart Delphi enthusiast  
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  Posted: Oct 27, 2017 6:48 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB, MVP) wrote:
Jeff Williams wrote:

I guess Idera does find it humiliating which is why the Jira
interface doesn't work;

AFAIK, it works fine for most people. Something else must be wrong.
--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Of all the enemies to public liberty, war is perhaps the most
to be dreaded because it comprises and develops the germ of
every other." -- James Madison

Well you tell me. I click on any of those rsp- links that Dave Nottage will post and I get an Atlassian page that says enter my username & pswd for Jira. It doesn't recognize my EDN account and says email my Jira admin for access. If something else was supposed to happen, I wouldn't know it.
Dalija Prasnikar

Posts: 2,325
Registered: 11/9/99
Re: Open letter to all from a maybe soon to depart Delphi enthusiast  
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  Posted: Oct 27, 2017 6:59 AM   in response to: Jeff Williams in response to: Jeff Williams
Jeff Williams wrote:
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB, MVP) wrote:
Jeff Williams wrote:

I guess Idera does find it humiliating which is why the Jira
interface doesn't work;

AFAIK, it works fine for most people. Something else must be wrong.
--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Of all the enemies to public liberty, war is perhaps the most
to be dreaded because it comprises and develops the germ of
every other." -- James Madison

Well you tell me. I click on any of those rsp- links that Dave Nottage will post and I get an Atlassian page that says enter my username & pswd for Jira. It doesn't recognize my EDN account and says email my Jira admin for access. If something else was supposed to happen, I wouldn't know it.

Your EDN account should be automatically recognized in Jira.
But you have to log in with your EDN user name, and not email address.

If you have any troubles logging in, that is not by design and you should
contact support.

--
Dalija Prasnikar
Embarcadero MVP
https://igoto.co/dalijap
Delphi Memory Management for Classic and ARC Compilers
https://igoto.co/DelphiMM
Rudy Velthuis (...


Posts: 7,731
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: Open letter to all from a maybe soon to depart Delphi enthusiast  
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  Posted: Oct 31, 2017 5:21 AM   in response to: Jeff Williams in response to: Jeff Williams
Jeff Williams wrote:

Rudy Velthuis (TeamB, MVP) wrote:
Jeff Williams wrote:

I guess Idera does find it humiliating which is why the Jira
interface doesn't work;

AFAIK, it works fine for most people. Something else must be wrong.

Well you tell me. I click on any of those rsp- links that Dave
Nottage will post and I get an Atlassian page that says enter my
username & pswd for Jira. It doesn't recognize my EDN account

It should (and does, for most people). So something else is wrong and
you might want to contact Embarcadero directly.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Don’t worry if it doesn’t work right. If everything did,
you’d be out of a job.”
-- Mosher’s Law of Software Engineering
David Taylor

Posts: 27
Registered: 9/12/08
Re: Open letter to all from a maybe soon to depart Delphi enthusiast  
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  Posted: Oct 27, 2017 12:47 AM   in response to: Lodge Consultan... in response to: Lodge Consultan...
On 26/10/2017 21:21, Lodge Consultancy Proprietor wrote:
This is perhaps a last cry...
[]
I would love to stay, but I cannot justify the high cost, coupled with the apparent lack of interest in ensuring the professional quality of the "core" functionality.

Seconded 100%. Very sad.

Because of the effort needed and low return from sales, I'm not
considering Android or iOS.

--
David
Web: http://www.satsignal.eu
Brandon Staggs

Posts: 683
Registered: 3/3/01
Re: Open letter to all from a maybe soon to depart Delphi enthusiast  
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  Posted: Oct 29, 2017 5:47 AM   in response to: Lodge Consultan... in response to: Lodge Consultan...
"Lodge Consultancy Proprietor" wrote on Thu, 26 Oct 2017 13:21:43
-0700:

I see bugs all over the place, with little apparent willingness to correct bugs in "older" releases, (or even in current ones!),

On this, I agree completely. When they switched to requiring the
subscription model I thought it was a good idea, but the impression I
had was that one of the justifications for it was that they would
provide updates for older products longer. But here we are, and the
DLL loading issues in the debugger still affect every recent Delphi
release except the current one.

And each new update brings with it a bunch of important fixes and
inevitable a whole new set of regressions with things like DPI.

But with regard to price, I think it is obvious that Delphi is not an
enthusiast tool, unless you are an enthusiast with a good deal of
spare change to spend on it. Despite its many flaws, I really still
love using Delphi, but it is far, far too expensive for "hobby" use
with a few dental exceptions.

We really don't have private information to work on, so it is all
guesswork, but the feeling many of us have is that Embarcadero is
all-in on the idea of selling a product as long as they can to their
existing, if dwindling, user-base. It does seem to think they regard
FMX as their only way to grow their user-base, but then there is the
dichotomy of having to maintain legacy Win32 (with new features and
improvements as well) and this almost completely different xPlat thing
with limited resources, all the while their publicly shared survey
data says most of us are on Win32, an API even Microsoft doesn't seem
happy to be supporting.

I don't know how long they can maintain this, but I know that I still
need Delphi professionally and will be using it for the foreseeable
future. So my guess is they think they have -- hope? -- enough people
like me (well, Enterprises, I guess, I am just a one-license shop on
Professional) who need the legacy dev tools to be maintained.

I just don't know how you bring new people into the Delphi world.
They can't just give it all away. (And anyone who compares
Embarcadero to Microsoft in this regard isn't really thinking
straight.)

--
Brandon Staggs
StudyLamp Software LLC
http://www.studylamp.com
Roy Lambert

Posts: 1,063
Registered: 8/7/01
Re: Open letter to all from a maybe soon to depart Delphi enthusiast  
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  Posted: Oct 29, 2017 6:50 AM   in response to: Brandon Staggs in response to: Brandon Staggs
Brandon

You have made some excellent points. When I first bought into Delphi (16bit v1) it was probably the most productive PC development out there. In addition it produced compiled code which ran faster than other systems.

Now we have an IDE that seems to be getting slower and buggier, and is more difficult to configure and use. Over the years executable size have grown and code execution has slowed down a bit. There seems to be some reliance of "PCs are getting faster" rather than producing optimised, high performace code.

Some of the changes and "improvements" have been warmly welcomed by all, others not so much, and some have broken existing code. Some features have just been plain broken since they were introduced.

This is against a background of lots of new languages, IDEs and hardware platforms being introduced.

Whoever owns Delphi has a tough market to operate in. They haven't made it easy for themselves.

Overpriced: no they can't give it away for free since they're not a startup looking for an IPO to make their money, and, as you say are not Microsoft or anyone else with massive revenue streams from other products

Buggy: I'm used to the problems with dear old D2006. I would hate having to cope with new ones every six months. I don't think users particularly wanted updates that frequently.

Lack of interest in the users: I know this is a user supported forum, but I'm sure some of the threads would have been brought to the owners notice, but they don't seem to care even when there's massive criticism

I'm sure you're right. Delphi is being treated as a cash cow, but I think they need to call in a vet.

Roy Lambert

Brian Hamilton ...

Posts: 556
Registered: 10/14/04
Re: Open letter to all from a maybe soon to depart Delphi enthusiast  
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  Posted: Oct 29, 2017 2:43 PM   in response to: Brandon Staggs in response to: Brandon Staggs
the latest ide fix pack will patch older versions re the windows update dll load problem I think you will find
Brandon Staggs

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Registered: 3/3/01
Re: Open letter to all from a maybe soon to depart Delphi enthusiast  
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  Posted: Oct 31, 2017 5:58 AM   in response to: Brian Hamilton ... in response to: Brian Hamilton ...
"Brian Hamilton Hamilton" wrote on Sun, 29 Oct 2017 14:43:55 -0700:

the latest ide fix pack will patch older versions re the windows update dll load problem I think you will find

Yuep, saw this. So that is good for those of us who have to use an
older version of Delphi for some reason. (In my case, I have one
project that I simply have no control over the Delphi IDE that is
used.)

But why couldn't Embarcadero create and test their own hotfix for this
months ago? I am not minimizing the work involved -- obviously
patching your own code for which you have support contracts (etc) is
not as straightforward as hacking out an unsupported freeware patch.
But, on a VM I use specifically for working with an older Delphi IDE
for which I have no control over the Delphi version, I had to mess
with my OS to prevent an update so that I would not be hit by this
issue. Why after months could they not release at least some kind of
unsupported hotfix? I am sure there are reasons, but it gives the
impression that they simply do not have the resources to support their
product fully. That impression is only compounded by regressions in
new releases and closed QA reports that are incorrectly labeled as
fixed when even the smallest amount of testing proves they are still
broken....

--
Brandon Staggs
StudyLamp Software LLC
http://www.studylamp.com
Fred Schetterer

Posts: 83
Registered: 5/20/99
Re: Open letter to all from a maybe soon to depart Delphi enthusiast  
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  Posted: Oct 29, 2017 1:52 PM   in response to: Lodge Consultan... in response to: Lodge Consultan...
Lodge Consultancy Proprietor wrote:
This is perhaps a last cry...

I can agree with nearly all of that having been in since D2.

This by comparison is Andreas for free:

Windows 10 Creators Update 1703 caused issues with all Delphi programs, libraries and packages because it changed how Windows loads imported DLLs in such a way that it causes performance issues and can crash the debugger. Delphi 10.2 Tokyo Update 2 fixed this by not producing multiple dll import sections for one DLL anymore. IDE Fix Pack 6.1 implements that “feature” for all previous Delphi versions (*2009-10.1 Berlin*) and extends it to not only eliminate duplicate dll imports but also duplicate delay dll imports.
This patch changes the generated binary, the Win32 and Win64 compiler outputs, and it can be disabled by using the new “-x-fdi-“ option.

http://andy.jgknet.de/blog/2017/10/ide-fix-pack-6-1-released/
Ronald Klitsche

Posts: 326
Registered: 8/26/01
Re: Open letter to all from a maybe soon to depart Delphi enthusiast  
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  Posted: Oct 30, 2017 3:43 AM   in response to: Fred Schetterer in response to: Fred Schetterer
Fred Schetterer wrote:
Lodge Consultancy Proprietor wrote:
This is perhaps a last cry...

I can agree with nearly all of that having been in since D2.

This by comparison is Andreas for free:

Windows 10 Creators Update 1703 caused issues with all Delphi programs, libraries and packages because it changed how Windows loads imported DLLs in such a way that it causes performance issues and can crash the debugger. Delphi 10.2 Tokyo Update 2 fixed this by not producing multiple dll import sections for one DLL anymore. IDE Fix Pack 6.1 implements that “feature” for all previous Delphi versions (*2009-10.1 Berlin*) and extends it to not only eliminate duplicate dll imports but also duplicate delay dll imports.
This patch changes the generated binary, the Win32 and Win64 compiler outputs, and it can be disabled by using the new “-x-fdi-“ option.

http://andy.jgknet.de/blog/2017/10/ide-fix-pack-6-1-released/

It's hard to understand that Andreas is able to fix problems by debuging and patching the binary,
where Emba isn't able to do it in their source code.

Hardly imaginable, what extensions it would be if Andreas could change the original IDE and compiler source code ...
Jeff Williams

Posts: 32
Registered: 4/19/10
Re: Open letter to all from a maybe soon to depart Delphi enthusiast  
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  Posted: Oct 31, 2017 5:50 AM   in response to: Ronald Klitsche in response to: Ronald Klitsche
Ronald Klitsche wrote:
Fred Schetterer wrote:
Lodge Consultancy Proprietor wrote:
This is perhaps a last cry...

I can agree with nearly all of that having been in since D2.

This by comparison is Andreas for free:

Windows 10 Creators Update 1703 caused issues with all Delphi programs, libraries and packages because it changed how Windows loads imported DLLs in such a way that it causes performance issues and can crash the debugger. Delphi 10.2 Tokyo Update 2 fixed this by not producing multiple dll import sections for one DLL anymore. IDE Fix Pack 6.1 implements that “feature” for all previous Delphi versions (*2009-10.1 Berlin*) and extends it to not only eliminate duplicate dll imports but also duplicate delay dll imports.
This patch changes the generated binary, the Win32 and Win64 compiler outputs, and it can be disabled by using the new “-x-fdi-“ option.

http://andy.jgknet.de/blog/2017/10/ide-fix-pack-6-1-released/

It's hard to understand that Andreas is able to fix problems by debuging and patching the binary,
where Emba isn't able to do it in their source code.

Hardly imaginable, what extensions it would be if Andreas could change the original IDE and compiler source code ...

Of course they could fix it. Embarcadero -chooses- not to fix the IDE (or much of anything else) because they deem it not to be in their best interest. If there's no bugs, why would you buy an update I imagine is their reasoning. As long as it's a bug-fest that mostly works, that'll keep people on subscription. For a while anyway.
Brandon Staggs

Posts: 683
Registered: 3/3/01
Re: Open letter to all from a maybe soon to depart Delphi enthusiast  
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  Posted: Oct 31, 2017 6:06 AM   in response to: Jeff Williams in response to: Jeff Williams
"Jeff Williams" wrote on Tue, 31 Oct 2017 05:50:52 -0700:

As long as it's a bug-fest that mostly works, that'll keep people on subscription. For a while anyway.

Except that they could release fixes only to current subscribers if
they choose. And in fact, this is what I had thought they were
implying they would eventually do. Releasing a bug fix update to
older Delphi versions to current subscribers would justify
subscription costs. But I suspect (just a guess, of course) that they
just do not want to devote the resources to updating old versions of
Delphi with fixes like this.

I hate to complain so much. I really do like using Delphi.

--
Brandon Staggs
StudyLamp Software LLC
http://www.studylamp.com
Dalija Prasnikar

Posts: 2,325
Registered: 11/9/99
Re: Open letter to all from a maybe soon to depart Delphi enthusiast  
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  Posted: Oct 31, 2017 3:53 PM   in response to: Brandon Staggs in response to: Brandon Staggs

I hate to complain so much. I really do like using Delphi.

Complaining is the way forward ;-)

If nobody complains, nothing gets better...

--
Dalija Prasnikar
Embarcadero MVP
https://igoto.co/dalijap
Delphi Memory Management for Classic and ARC Compilers
https://igoto.co/DelphiMM
Ronald Klitsche

Posts: 326
Registered: 8/26/01
Re: Open letter to all from a maybe soon to depart Delphi enthusiast  
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  Posted: Nov 1, 2017 3:03 AM   in response to: Jeff Williams in response to: Jeff Williams
Jeff Williams wrote:
Of course they could fix it. Embarcadero -chooses- not to fix the IDE (or much of anything else)
because they deem it not to be in their best interest.
If there's no bugs, why would you buy an update I imagine is their reasoning.

These patches from Andreas are less bugfixes, but rather improvements.

As long as it's a bug-fest that mostly works, that'll keep people on subscription. For a while anyway.

Why should a customer stay on subscription, when bugs aren't fixed?

I would expect that these improvements in the IDE and even Win32/x64 compilers, will lead many customers to update their Delphi version.
Maybe more than ever came through the mobile development.
Legend
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