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Thread: i m totally disappointed about emb :(



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loki loki

Posts: 587
Registered: 7/1/02
i m totally disappointed about emb :(
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  Posted: Mar 20, 2017 4:48 AM
I just discover an already know bug in firemonkey android.

this bug is very important (and blocking) because it's create memory
leak every time you use simple java type like string, integer or even
boolean. to gave you an exemple it's like everytime you use a String, an
integer or even a boolean their are never (never) release from the memory

https://quality.embarcadero.com/browse/RSP-14187

it's even worse on android because java permit to have maximun 65000
reference to such type, so your app will crash much faster than when
it's will be out of memory

why i m disappointed it's because this bug was discover in seattle, and
it's still not corrected in berlin (update 2). it's seam this bug is not
the priority of emb because this bug not appear in any demo. in fact you
need to use your app a quite long time dependly of what the app is doing
but if you do http request it's can be just several minutes.

So emb is selling "publisher", look good on the paper but in the
reality, after 6 months of development you see bug like this that
suddenly stop all your developments (you can not see such bug at the
first view)

i don't know who is responsible of the priority at emb, but i think they
work only on new features (like linux) because new feature make sell
(and good publisher presentation) but they make bug correction at lowest
priority and the result is what we have : tones of features but a very
poor and buggy code, often unusable ! just look a question made few days
ago here Has anyone managed to complete a cross-platform app ? resume
quite well the atmosphere

i don't think it's the fault of the emb dev team, but mostly the fault
of the emb management team. these guy just detroy the reputation of
delphi :(

and to finish this bug show how stupid is ARC, without arc this bug will
never be here

steven chesser

Posts: 339
Registered: 4/13/09
Re: i m totally disappointed about emb :(
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  Posted: Mar 20, 2017 7:50 AM   in response to: loki loki in response to: loki loki
loki loki wrote:
I just discover an already know bug in firemonkey android.

this bug is very important (and blocking) because it's create memory
leak every time you use simple java type like string, integer or even
boolean. to gave you an exemple it's like everytime you use a String, an
integer or even a boolean their are never (never) release from the memory

https://quality.embarcadero.com/browse/RSP-14187

it's even worse on android because java permit to have maximun 65000
reference to such type, so your app will crash much faster than when
it's will be out of memory

why i m disappointed it's because this bug was discover in seattle, and
it's still not corrected in berlin (update 2). it's seam this bug is not
the priority of emb because this bug not appear in any demo. in fact you
need to use your app a quite long time dependly of what the app is doing
but if you do http request it's can be just several minutes.

So emb is selling "publisher", look good on the paper but in the
reality, after 6 months of development you see bug like this that
suddenly stop all your developments (you can not see such bug at the
first view)

i don't know who is responsible of the priority at emb, but i think they
work only on new features (like linux) because new feature make sell
(and good publisher presentation) but they make bug correction at lowest
priority and the result is what we have : tones of features but a very
poor and buggy code, often unusable ! just look a question made few days
ago here Has anyone managed to complete a cross-platform app ? resume
quite well the atmosphere

i don't think it's the fault of the emb dev team, but mostly the fault
of the emb management team. these guy just detroy the reputation of
delphi :(

and to finish this bug show how stupid is ARC, without arc this bug will
never be here


Another old and nasty bug @ https://quality.embarcadero.com/browse/RSP-15775

Prevents companies like TMS from supporting Android ...
Markus Humm

Posts: 4,322
Registered: 11/9/03
Re: i m totally disappointed about emb :(
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  Posted: Mar 20, 2017 1:14 PM   in response to: loki loki in response to: loki loki
Am 20.03.2017 um 12:48 schrieb loki loki:
I just discover an already know bug in firemonkey android.

this bug is very important (and blocking) because it's create memory
leak every time you use simple java type like string, integer or even
boolean. to gave you an exemple it's like everytime you use a String, an
integer or even a boolean their are never (never) release from the memory

https://quality.embarcadero.com/browse/RSP-14187

it's even worse on android because java permit to have maximun 65000
reference to such type, so your app will crash much faster than when
it's will be out of memory

why i m disappointed it's because this bug was discover in seattle, and
it's still not corrected in berlin (update 2). it's seam this bug is not
the priority of emb because this bug not appear in any demo. in fact you
need to use your app a quite long time dependly of what the app is doing
but if you do http request it's can be just several minutes.

So emb is selling "publisher", look good on the paper but in the
reality, after 6 months of development you see bug like this that
suddenly stop all your developments (you can not see such bug at the
first view)

i don't know who is responsible of the priority at emb


I'm quite sure you know the names of the product managers. Don't you?
They should at least in parts be responsible for sheduling work.

I suggest you write them about this issue to raise awarenes.

Greetings

Markus
loki loki

Posts: 587
Registered: 7/1/02
Re: i m totally disappointed about emb :(
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  Posted: Mar 20, 2017 3:07 PM   in response to: Markus Humm in response to: Markus Humm
I'm quite sure you know the names of the product managers. Don't you?

no seriously i don't know them except maybe marco cantu who say exactly
that correction of bug don't make new sell (because customer hope to
receive theses corrections for free) but new features make new sell so
they focus on new feature ... i already say to all of them (in beta
testing program forum) what i think about it, seam they decide to not
re-invite me to the beta tester program ;)
Dalija Prasnikar

Posts: 2,072
Registered: 11/9/99
Re: i m totally disappointed about emb :(
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  Posted: Mar 21, 2017 12:54 AM   in response to: loki loki in response to: loki loki
loki loki wrote:
I'm quite sure you know the names of the product managers. Don't you?

no seriously i don't know them except maybe marco cantu who say exactly
that correction of bug don't make new sell (because customer hope to
receive theses corrections for free) but new features make new sell so
they focus on new feature ... i already say to all of them (in beta
testing program forum) what i think about it, seam they decide to not
re-invite me to the beta tester program ;)

Your problem is that you don't focus on your issues which are serious but
focus on ranting instead. So people are not inclined to listen.

Again, there is a bug in Delphi, why on Earth you need to rant about ARC
again. It is not ARC that fails, but darn bug in compiler (I think, here I didn't
looked up closely)...

You can have showstopper bugs in compiler regardless of they being ARC
or non-ARC.

--
Dalija Prasnikar
https://twitter.com/dalijap
https://plus.google.com/+DalijaPrasnikar
loki loki

Posts: 587
Registered: 7/1/02
Re: i m totally disappointed about emb :(
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  Posted: Mar 21, 2017 1:50 AM   in response to: Dalija Prasnikar in response to: Dalija Prasnikar
Your problem is that you don't focus on your issues which are serious but
focus on ranting instead. So people are not inclined to listen.

yes it's sure that verity always hard to listen ! but remember even if
lies don't hurt at first view, it's will destroy you at the end, and
verity hurt but make you strong at the end ! after making strong childs
of monkey with donkey don't know if it's really possible ...
Dalija Prasnikar

Posts: 2,072
Registered: 11/9/99
Re: i m totally disappointed about emb :(
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  Posted: Mar 21, 2017 2:03 AM   in response to: loki loki in response to: loki loki
loki loki wrote:
Your problem is that you don't focus on your issues which are serious but
focus on ranting instead. So people are not inclined to listen.

yes it's sure that verity always hard to listen ! but remember even if
lies don't hurt at first view, it's will destroy you at the end, and
verity hurt but make you strong at the end ! after making strong childs
of monkey with donkey don't know if it's really possible ...

????

I have no idea what you mean... it does not matter... you are stubborn enough
and you don't want to listen to people trying to help you.

I am really sorry because of that. You seem to find new issue every few lines
of code you write and it would benefit all if you could keep focus when
reporting and/or asking about those. That includes clear description of
your problem with proper MCVE regardless of where you post about it.

And no useless ranting about unrelated stuff.

ARC is here, that part will not change. You don't have to repeat how ARC
sucks every time you have some issue.

--
Dalija Prasnikar
https://twitter.com/dalijap
https://plus.google.com/+DalijaPrasnikar
loki loki

Posts: 587
Registered: 7/1/02
Re: i m totally disappointed about emb :(
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  Posted: Mar 21, 2017 7:19 AM   in response to: Dalija Prasnikar in response to: Dalija Prasnikar
I am really sorry because of that. You seem to find new issue every few lines
of code you write and it would benefit all if you could keep focus when
reporting and/or asking about those. That includes clear description of
your problem with proper MCVE regardless of where you post about it.

yeaaa i have nothing else to do than reporting thousands or error, and
making clear sample project ... maybe it's emb that will pay me at the
end of the month (and not the opposite by the way) ?

you really think i imagine all of theses bug every day? just today
(really few hours ago) i discussed with an MVP delphi developer who
already work intensively on mobile with delphi, post some article
regarding mobile development with delphi (not like you as far as i know
who never do any serious mobile project, i repeat as far as i know), so
know very well delphi + mobile and he say me he is planning to
investigate XAMARIN ! ... Or like close to all other developpers in
french forum who say me they prefer to learn Android Studio and Xcode (2
languages, 2 codes) to make their mobile app than doing it with delphi
they already know (i don't even speak about the delphi guy who say me he
prefer windev for mobile developement than delphi) ...

you really think i invent all of this ?? i think it's a pity from you
and from delphi who don't want to see the reality

the bug of today (this memoryleak with jstring, jinteger, etc.) you
think it's cost 2 min to discover it ? First when i saw the error log
(and thanks god java did some error log in such case before to crash the
app) i was thinking it's was in my code that i forget to free something,
so i check everything (with this slow compiler) and it's cost me 1 day
to discover the bug. but what make me angry is that someone else already
discover this bug before (1 year ago) AND it's still not yet corrected,
so i really loose 1 day for nothing ! maybe i also invent it :(


ARC is here, that part will not change. You don't have to repeat how ARC
sucks every time you have some issue.

it's suck. i speak about arc because here you understand that the memory
leak is because we leave the compiler release the memory himself when he
think he don't need it anymore and you see that the compiler is not
really clever.
Dalija Prasnikar

Posts: 2,072
Registered: 11/9/99
Re: i m totally disappointed about emb :(
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  Posted: Mar 21, 2017 8:25 AM   in response to: loki loki in response to: loki loki
loki loki wrote:
I am really sorry because of that. You seem to find new issue every few lines
of code you write and it would benefit all if you could keep focus when
reporting and/or asking about those. That includes clear description of
your problem with proper MCVE regardless of where you post about it.

yeaaa i have nothing else to do than reporting thousands or error, and
making clear sample project ... maybe it's emb that will pay me at the
end of the month (and not the opposite by the way) ?

Well, if you don't report them do you think those issues will magically fix themselves?


you really think i imagine all of theses bug every day? just today
(really few hours ago) i discussed with an MVP delphi developer who
already work intensively on mobile with delphi, post some article
regarding mobile development with delphi

I know you are not imagining those issues. That is why I am trying to make
you see that you are not achieving anything with unfocused rants and
could do so much better if people would take you seriously.

I do take you seriously, but I don't work for Embarcadero so I cannot help
you much.

you really think i invent all of this ?? i think it's a pity from you
and from delphi who don't want to see the reality

I see reality quite well. I can feel your pain. In my reality Delphi does
not support my needs on mobile platforms well.

--
Dalija Prasnikar
https://twitter.com/dalijap
https://plus.google.com/+DalijaPrasnikar
loki loki

Posts: 587
Registered: 7/1/02
Re: i m totally disappointed about emb :(
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  Posted: Mar 21, 2017 9:09 AM   in response to: Dalija Prasnikar in response to: Dalija Prasnikar

Well, if you don't report them do you think those issues will magically fix themselves?

i already reported 102 issues to the quality.embarcadero.com and this
only for the last year, so with 262 work days by years mean around 1 bug
report every 3 days !!

I know you are not imagining those issues. That is why I am trying to make
you see that you are not achieving anything with unfocused rants and
could do so much better if people would take you seriously.

don't know what you mean by rants, but what sure it's limit insulting
client to hear that on berlin they focus on stuff like getit package
manager or correct bug usefull to everyone (ie access private field from
class helper) and on godzilla they focus on Linux when for example me i
report 1 bug every 3 days for mobile development and close to none of
them have even been investigated.
Van Swofford

Posts: 322
Registered: 6/28/03
Re: i m totally disappointed about emb :(
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  Posted: Mar 21, 2017 8:34 AM   in response to: loki loki in response to: loki loki
loki loki wrote:

I am really sorry because of that. You seem to find new issue every
few lines of code you write and it would benefit all if you could
keep focus when reporting and/or asking about those. That includes
clear description of your problem with proper MCVE regardless of
where you post about it.

yeaaa i have nothing else to do than reporting thousands or error,
and making clear sample project ... maybe it's emb that will pay me
at the end of the month (and not the opposite by the way) ?

you really think i imagine all of theses bug every day? just today
(really few hours ago) i discussed with an MVP delphi developer who
already work intensively on mobile with delphi, post some article
regarding mobile development with delphi (not like you as far as i
know who never do any serious mobile project, i repeat as far as i
know), so know very well delphi + mobile and he say me he is planning
to investigate XAMARIN ! ... Or like close to all other developpers
in french forum who say me they prefer to learn Android Studio and
Xcode (2 languages, 2 codes) to make their mobile app than doing it
with delphi they already know (i don't even speak about the delphi
guy who say me he prefer windev for mobile developement than delphi)
...

you really think i invent all of this ?? i think it's a pity from you
and from delphi who don't want to see the reality

the bug of today (this memoryleak with jstring, jinteger, etc.) you
think it's cost 2 min to discover it ? First when i saw the error log
(and thanks god java did some error log in such case before to crash
the app) i was thinking it's was in my code that i forget to free
something, so i check everything (with this slow compiler) and it's
cost me 1 day to discover the bug. but what make me angry is that
someone else already discover this bug before (1 year ago) AND it's
still not yet corrected, so i really loose 1 day for nothing ! maybe
i also invent it :(


ARC is here, that part will not change. You don't have to repeat
how ARC sucks every time you have some issue.

it's suck. i speak about arc because here you understand that the
memory leak is because we leave the compiler release the memory
himself when he think he don't need it anymore and you see that the
compiler is not really clever.

I believe you just proved Dalija's point quite well.

--
Cheers,
Van

"Good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad
judgment." - Will Rogers
loki loki

Posts: 587
Registered: 7/1/02
Re: i m totally disappointed about emb :(
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  Posted: Mar 21, 2017 9:09 AM   in response to: Van Swofford in response to: Van Swofford

it's suck. i speak about arc because here you understand that the
memory leak is because we leave the compiler release the memory
himself when he think he don't need it anymore and you see that the
compiler is not really clever.

I believe you just proved Dalija's point quite well.

what??
Rudy Velthuis (...


Posts: 6,446
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: i m totally disappointed about emb :(
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  Posted: Mar 21, 2017 11:24 AM   in response to: loki loki in response to: loki loki
loki loki wrote:


it's suck. i speak about arc because here you understand that the
memory leak is because we leave the compiler release the memory
himself when he think he don't need it anymore and you see that the
compiler is not really clever.

I believe you just proved Dalija's point quite well.

what??

Dalija's point was that you (needlessly) rant about how ARC sucks
everytime you write a post. And you proved her point by, well, ranting
how ARC sucks in your reply to her. <g>

Compilers are not really clever, indeed, but they are extremely good at
applying the same principle (e.g. refcounting) without ever forgetting
anything. Humans can easily forget to free an item or to refcount it
(e.g. what you had do for COM interfaces before Delphi got ARC for
interfaces). The compiler won't.

ARC doesn't suck. On the contrary, it works very well, and incessantly.
It enver forgets an AddRef or a Release. But some of the code that was
originally designed to work without ARC sometimes does things that work
against ARC. That sucks. And not all of these situations have been
handled yet.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

Lynch's Law: When the going gets tough, everyone leaves.
Mike Margerum

Posts: 519
Registered: 12/1/99
Re: i m totally disappointed about emb :(
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  Posted: Mar 22, 2017 7:05 AM   in response to: loki loki in response to: loki loki
Why don't you just switch to swift or java instead of beating your head
against Delphi?

On 3/21/17 10:19 AM, loki loki wrote:


ARC is here, that part will not change. You don't have to repeat how ARC
sucks every time you have some issue.

it's suck. i speak about arc because here you understand that the memory
leak is because we leave the compiler release the memory himself when he
think he don't need it anymore and you see that the compiler is not
really clever.
Dalija Prasnikar

Posts: 2,072
Registered: 11/9/99
Re: i m totally disappointed about emb :(
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  Posted: Mar 22, 2017 7:11 AM   in response to: Mike Margerum in response to: Mike Margerum
Mike Margerum wrote:
Why don't you just switch to swift or java instead of beating your head
against Delphi?

I guess guy really likes Delphi ;-)

--
Dalija Prasnikar
https://twitter.com/dalijap
https://plus.google.com/+DalijaPrasnikar
loki loki

Posts: 587
Registered: 7/1/02
Re: i m totally disappointed about emb :(
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  Posted: Mar 22, 2017 7:27 AM   in response to: Dalija Prasnikar in response to: Dalija Prasnikar
On 3/22/2017 5:11 PM, Dalija Prasnikar wrote:
Mike Margerum wrote:
Why don't you just switch to swift or java instead of beating your head
against Delphi?

I guess guy really likes Delphi ;-)

No delphi is a very good choice to do multi platform development! i m
just sad that because of stupid management team of emb my 6 months
development cost me 1 year :(
Rudy Velthuis (...


Posts: 6,446
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: i m totally disappointed about emb :(
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  Posted: Mar 24, 2017 5:42 AM   in response to: loki loki in response to: loki loki
loki loki wrote:

On 3/22/2017 5:11 PM, Dalija Prasnikar wrote:
Mike Margerum wrote:
Why don't you just switch to swift or java instead of beating your
head >> against Delphi?

I guess guy really likes Delphi ;-)

No delphi is a very good choice to do multi platform development! i m
just sad that because of stupid management team of emb my 6 months
development cost me 1 year :(

I doubt it is management that causes your problems. Others manage to
write mobile apps quite well.

ISTM that your working against ARC instead of going with the flow
(i.e. working with ARC) causes your headaches. Try to understand ARC
before you fight it. <shrug>

And stop ranting. It is hard to take your problems for full if you
constantly rant about how bad the world is to you.
--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"The Pope!?! How many divisions has he got?"
-- Joseph Stalin
Dalija Prasnikar

Posts: 2,072
Registered: 11/9/99
Re: i m totally disappointed about emb :(
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  Posted: Mar 24, 2017 6:08 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:
loki loki wrote:

On 3/22/2017 5:11 PM, Dalija Prasnikar wrote:
Mike Margerum wrote:
Why don't you just switch to swift or java instead of beating your
head >> against Delphi?

I guess guy really likes Delphi ;-)

No delphi is a very good choice to do multi platform development! i m
just sad that because of stupid management team of emb my 6 months
development cost me 1 year :(

I doubt it is management that causes your problems. Others manage to
write mobile apps quite well.

To be fair, there is huge number of issues in Delphi for mobile platforms.

Of course, most of them is not ARC related, though ARC does bring
its share of the problems. Main issue with ARC in Delphi is that it
is hard to polish rough ends because there is no Windows based
ARC compiler and compiling/running/testing on mobile takes more time.

Another issue is cross-platform code that caters for non-ARC and ARC
compilers - two don't mix well and and result is sub-optimal when ARC is
concerned.

ISTM that your working against ARC instead of going with the flow
(i.e. working with ARC) causes your headaches. Try to understand ARC
before you fight it. <shrug>

That is one of the problems.

And stop ranting. It is hard to take your problems for full if you
constantly rant about how bad the world is to you.

That too.

--
Dalija Prasnikar
https://twitter.com/dalijap
https://plus.google.com/+DalijaPrasnikar
loki loki

Posts: 587
Registered: 7/1/02
Re: i m totally disappointed about emb :(
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  Posted: Mar 24, 2017 7:08 AM   in response to: Dalija Prasnikar in response to: Dalija Prasnikar
To be fair, there is huge number of issues in Delphi for mobile platforms.

Of course, most of them is not ARC related, though ARC does bring
its share of the problems. Main issue with ARC in Delphi is that it
is hard to polish rough ends because there is no Windows based
ARC compiler and compiling/running/testing on mobile takes more time.

Another issue is cross-platform code that caters for non-ARC and ARC
compilers - two don't mix well and and result is sub-optimal when ARC is
concerned.

sincerely now that i remove arc code myself it's much more easy. so i
don't have any more problem with it but can't imagine how other can code
descent software under delphi with ARC! But when i see that the memory
leak with java type like jstring is still here i guess most of the other
developper don't know (or don't care) about the memory leak they may
have on mobile

take another CONCRETE example, look at the new linux compiler with
tokyo. we have an ISAPI DLL that is a templating system for our website.
it's sad we need IIS and need to buy microsoft on each of our server and
the ability to compile this dll under linux will be very great.

BUT because linux compiler is maded under ARC it's not possible at all
to do such and the linux compiler is completely useless for us. because
we will need to redebug/redo most of our existing code for ARC, test
everything again. also as on win32 their is no ARC the futur development
and testing will be a nightmare (because we test when we developp on our
developpement desktop that is windows). and to finish ARC slow down
everything on multithread software and must be avoided

again you must understand that it's not really arc the problem (except
for the speed) but the problem is that ARC CODE <> NON ARC CODE they are
not compatible and this is the problem !

Rudy Velthuis (...


Posts: 6,446
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: i m totally disappointed about emb :(
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  Posted: Mar 24, 2017 12:05 PM   in response to: loki loki in response to: loki loki
loki loki wrote:

sincerely now that i remove arc code myself it's much more easy.

What on earth have you done? How did you "remove ARC"?

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Everybody wants to go to heaven, but nobody wants to die."
-- Joe Louis.
loki loki

Posts: 587
Registered: 7/1/02
Re: i m totally disappointed about emb :(
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  Posted: Mar 24, 2017 1:37 PM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
On 3/24/2017 10:05 PM, Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:
loki loki wrote:

sincerely now that i remove arc code myself it's much more easy.

What on earth have you done? How did you "remove ARC"?

i updated the original delphi source code ! and now i see much (much)
less bug in my app :)

i don't understand why emb stay in this stupid situation with ARC on
mobile and non ARC on desktop ! just to avoid 2 set of DCU they destroy
the reputation of delphi and make mobile development (and linux now) a
nightmare.

the only solution is arc on mobile + desktop or non arc on mobile +
desktop. no need to speak years about it, because this is the only way
to go ! make 2 set of DCU and a compiler option to choose if we want ARC
or not arc
Dave Nottage

Posts: 1,178
Registered: 1/7/00
Re: i m totally disappointed about emb :(
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  Posted: Mar 24, 2017 3:07 PM   in response to: loki loki in response to: loki loki
loki loki wrote:

i don't understand why emb stay in this stupid situation with ARC on
mobile and non ARC on desktop ! just to avoid 2 set of DCU they destroy
the reputation of delphi and make mobile development (and linux now) a
nightmare.

the only solution is arc on mobile + desktop or non arc on mobile +
desktop. no need to speak years about it, because this is the only way
to go ! make 2 set of DCU and a compiler option to choose if we want ARC
or not arc

That's just plain incorrect. Just because you're having problems with ARC does not mean that it is not possible to
develop mobile apps with Delphi, with ARC. Many already do, including myself.

--
Dave Nottage [MVP, TeamB]
Hints, tips and tricks at: http://www.delphiworlds.com/blog
loki loki

Posts: 587
Registered: 7/1/02
Re: i m totally disappointed about emb :(
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  Posted: Mar 25, 2017 2:24 AM   in response to: Dave Nottage in response to: Dave Nottage
That's just plain incorrect. Just because you're having problems with ARC does not mean that it is not possible to
develop mobile apps with Delphi, with ARC. Many already do, including myself.

Hmm, what is exactly "many" for you ? Their is some people who can play
chess and who can see thousands of thousands of combination in instant,
maybe be you are from these people, me i m not ... i m not a super
genius, i can't see fastly potential problem (like circular reference) !

the big question: how do you know that their is not memory leak or other
potential problems in your app? their is 0 descent debugging tool to say
you so !

how do you know that the code :

procedure TForm1.btnClick(Sender: TObject);
begin
TTask.Create(procedure
begin
sleep(150);
TThread.Synchronize(nil,
procedure
begin
form1.tag := 1;
end);

end).start;
end;

will create a memory leak !? how do you know all other scenario that
will create a memory leak? and i repeat the question, how do you simply
know that you have a memory leak or not ?

right now under delphi it is not descent programing, this is far west
programing ! maybe you will be lucky and everything will be fine, maybe
not and you app will crash time to time (or will be more slow) but you
will not know why! and maybe it's will be not because of arc, but again
you will not know, because again i repeat 0 descent debugging tool !

But don't say i say ARC is bad, to be honest i don't like verbosity in
the code and the possibility to write my code without any try ...
finally .free end it's so good ! i can't imagine javascript code with
all these try ... finally ! *but now be honest too, did you really
remove the try finally .free end from your code* ?? if not what the hell
is the purpose of the ARC under delphi (that the big question) ??

So can you say me the benefit of ARC ? the real benefit? say me why
your app is better with arc than without arc ! and please be honest
about arc ! i don't speak about theory, where arc is juicy, i speak
about the reality of now with delphi ! arc was introduced from ios, so
many year ago so it's not something new that you can say will improve
with time (time already show everything)

Of course if debugging under android/ios was descent (but that not the
fault of delphi, it's like this) yes maybe, if you developp only you app
for ios/android and not also for desktop/macos, yes maybe, if arc was
also in desktop/macos who have very descent debugging tool (also memory
leak report thanks to fastmm), yes maybe ... but it's a lot of if and
maybe :(

when apple introduce arc (and apple have much much more human resource
than emb to introduce such new feature that is really not easy to
introduce), they let the possibility to developer to stay on non arc,
why emb can't do so also ?

With arc, you can't import your old code from desktop to mobile, where
is the benefit here? with arc you can't remove the try finally from you
code because you still need to debug everything under desktop, where is
the benefit here? with arc you code is more slow under multithread
because of the need to threadlock to increase/decrease the refcount,
where is the benefit here?

concrete perfect example is my win32 isapi dll that i can't migrate to
linux because of arc not compatible with non arc, and that is the
reality! that is just a pity ...

all of this are fact ! you can close your eyes, fact will not change ..
and to finish many is not the number of finger i have ...
Markus Humm

Posts: 4,322
Registered: 11/9/03
Re: i m totally disappointed about emb :(
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  Posted: Mar 25, 2017 2:37 AM   in response to: loki loki in response to: loki loki
Am 25.03.2017 um 10:24 schrieb loki loki:


when apple introduce arc (and apple have much much more human resource
than emb to introduce such new feature that is really not easy to
introduce), they let the possibility to developer to stay on non arc,
why emb can't do so also ?

That one you practically answered yourself ;-)
It's due to the bigger ressources Apple has! ;-)
Maintaining 2 sets of libraries for the same platform is not free of
cost and labour!

Greetings

Markus
loki loki

Posts: 587
Registered: 7/1/02
Re: i m totally disappointed about emb :(
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  Posted: Mar 25, 2017 3:53 AM   in response to: Markus Humm in response to: Markus Humm

That one you practically answered yourself ;-)
It's due to the bigger ressources Apple has! ;-)
Maintaining 2 sets of libraries for the same platform is not free of
cost and labour!

but they already do !(!) they add ifdef everywhere to make the same code
compile on desktop and on mobile !
Markus Humm

Posts: 4,322
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Re: i m totally disappointed about emb :(
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  Posted: Mar 25, 2017 5:03 AM   in response to: loki loki in response to: loki loki
Am 25.03.2017 um 11:53 schrieb loki loki:

That one you practically answered yourself ;-)
It's due to the bigger ressources Apple has! ;-)
Maintaining 2 sets of libraries for the same platform is not free of
cost and labour!

but they already do !(!) they add ifdef everywhere to make the same code
compile on desktop and on mobile !

Hello,

issue is: if they enable ARC for FMX on Win32 then VCL needs to be fully
ARC compatible as well, otherwise a 2nd Win32 compiler is necessary.

At least this is my understanding.

Greetings

Markus
Rudy Velthuis (...


Posts: 6,446
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: i m totally disappointed about emb :(
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  Posted: Mar 25, 2017 5:52 AM   in response to: Markus Humm in response to: Markus Humm
Markus Humm wrote:

Am 25.03.2017 um 10:24 schrieb loki loki:


when apple introduce arc (and apple have much much more human
resource than emb to introduce such new feature that is really not
easy to introduce), they let the possibility to developer to stay
on non arc, why emb can't do so also ?

That one you practically answered yourself ;-)
It's due to the bigger ressources Apple has! ;-)
Maintaining 2 sets of libraries for the same platform is not free of
cost and labour!

Apple does not have to. Their objects were already refcounted, so the
switch is between manual and automatic refcounting. AFAIK, on the Mac,
you can still do it manually, if you really really want that, although
I don't know many who would do that. ARC made many things much easier
on the Mac. It also makes many things easier in Delphi, but only if you
don't work against it, like loki seems to do.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Comparing to another activity is useful if it helps you formulate
questions, it's dangerous when you use it to justify answers."
-- Martin Fowler
loki loki

Posts: 587
Registered: 7/1/02
Re: i m totally disappointed about emb :(
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  Posted: Mar 25, 2017 6:59 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Apple does not have to. Their objects were already refcounted, so the
switch is between manual and automatic refcounting. AFAIK, on the Mac,
you can still do it manually, if you really really want that, although
I don't know many who would do that. ARC made many things much easier
on the Mac. It also makes many things easier in Delphi, but only if you
don't work against it, like loki seems to do.

ok, same question than the one i ask to dave : Can you just gave me only
one advantage of using ARC in delphi right now ?
Markus Humm

Posts: 4,322
Registered: 11/9/03
Re: i m totally disappointed about emb :(
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  Posted: Mar 25, 2017 10:50 AM   in response to: loki loki in response to: loki loki
Am 25.03.2017 um 14:59 schrieb loki loki:
Apple does not have to. Their objects were already refcounted, so the
switch is between manual and automatic refcounting. AFAIK, on the Mac,
you can still do it manually, if you really really want that, although
I don't know many who would do that. ARC made many things much easier
on the Mac. It also makes many things easier in Delphi, but only if you
don't work against it, like loki seems to do.

ok, same question than the one i ask to dave : Can you just gave me only
one advantage of using ARC in delphi right now ?

Depends on whether you need to be cross platform compatible or not.
if not you can spare .free calls and try finaly blocks.

Greetings

Markus
loki loki

Posts: 587
Registered: 7/1/02
Re: i m totally disappointed about emb :(
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  Posted: Mar 25, 2017 10:53 AM   in response to: Markus Humm in response to: Markus Humm

Depends on whether you need to be cross platform compatible or not.
if not you can spare .free calls and try finaly blocks.

and if you spare, you will really debug your app only under android ??

really i can't stop smile with all of these guy defending ARC and making
their life complicated and see that none of them are enable just to gave
one simple advantage ;) maybe they are all masochist ;)

Markus Humm

Posts: 4,322
Registered: 11/9/03
Re: i m totally disappointed about emb :(
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  Posted: Mar 25, 2017 3:21 PM   in response to: loki loki in response to: loki loki
Am 25.03.2017 um 18:53 schrieb loki loki:

Depends on whether you need to be cross platform compatible or not.
if not you can spare .free calls and try finaly blocks.

and if you spare, you will really debug your app only under android ??


Yes, sure! The app I'm developing currently can only work under Android
due to APIs only available there or issues on Win32 with the required
technology (on Win32 I'd normally need external hardware and their
firmware often is not compatible with the opposide party they shall
communicate with).

So this app really is tied to Android only.

Greetings

Markus
Rudy Velthuis (...


Posts: 6,446
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: i m totally disappointed about emb :(
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  Posted: Mar 26, 2017 5:04 AM   in response to: Markus Humm in response to: Markus Humm
Markus Humm wrote:

Am 25.03.2017 um 14:59 schrieb loki loki:
Apple does not have to. Their objects were already refcounted, so
the >> switch is between manual and automatic refcounting. AFAIK, on
the Mac, >> you can still do it manually, if you really really want
that, although >> I don't know many who would do that. ARC made many
things much easier >> on the Mac. It also makes many things easier in
Delphi, but only if you >> don't work against it, like loki seems to
do.

ok, same question than the one i ask to dave : Can you just gave me
only one advantage of using ARC in delphi right now ?

Depends on whether you need to be cross platform compatible or not.

No, it doesn't. ARC has this one big advantage in any code, even in
Swift or Objective-C. Of course not in code for a compiler that doesn't
have it.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"I criticize by creation - not by finding fault."
-- Cicero (106-43 B.C.)

loki loki

Posts: 587
Registered: 7/1/02
Re: i m totally disappointed about emb :(
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  Posted: Mar 26, 2017 5:30 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
No, it doesn't. ARC has this one big advantage in any code, even in
Swift or Objective-C. Of course not in code for a compiler that doesn't
have it.

typical Rudy answer without any argument :) you must be politician not
developer !
Markus Humm

Posts: 4,322
Registered: 11/9/03
Re: i m totally disappointed about emb :(
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  Posted: Mar 26, 2017 7:37 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Am 26.03.2017 um 14:04 schrieb Rudy Velthuis (TeamB):
Markus Humm wrote:

Am 25.03.2017 um 14:59 schrieb loki loki:
Apple does not have to. Their objects were already refcounted, so
the >> switch is between manual and automatic refcounting. AFAIK, on
the Mac, >> you can still do it manually, if you really really want
that, although >> I don't know many who would do that. ARC made many
things much easier >> on the Mac. It also makes many things easier in
Delphi, but only if you >> don't work against it, like loki seems to
do.

ok, same question than the one i ask to dave : Can you just gave me
only one advantage of using ARC in delphi right now ?

Depends on whether you need to be cross platform compatible or not.

No, it doesn't. ARC has this one big advantage in any code, even in
Swift or Objective-C. Of course not in code for a compiler that doesn't
have it.

That was what I was refering to!
In Delphi you can only exploit it, if you do not need your code to stay
compatible with any of the non Nexgen compilers and you know this!
No need to go nitpicking here. Better tell us what EMBT has messed up in
their Android support in Tokyo... Because that's really severe/unuseable
in the current state. It doesn't seem to be noticeable in smallish "toy"
applications, but it's quite visible in real world sized apps.

Just came up with the idea that comparing a Berlin build of one of the
EMBT own mobile games against a Tokyo one could help, as for these EMBT
has the source code and thus a real world example and in a jump'n run or
arcade style game that effect should be visible easily... :-(

Greetings

Markus
loki loki

Posts: 587
Registered: 7/1/02
Re: i m totally disappointed about emb :(
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  Posted: Mar 26, 2017 7:49 AM   in response to: Markus Humm in response to: Markus Humm
That was what I was refering to!
In Delphi you can only exploit it, if you do not need your code to stay
compatible with any of the non Nexgen compilers and you know this!
No need to go nitpicking here. Better tell us what EMBT has messed up in
their Android support in Tokyo... Because that's really severe/unuseable
in the current state. It doesn't seem to be noticeable in smallish "toy"
applications, but it's quite visible in real world sized apps.

Just came up with the idea that comparing a Berlin build of one of the
EMBT own mobile games against a Tokyo one could help, as for these EMBT
has the source code and thus a real world example and in a jump'n run or
arcade style game that effect should be visible easily... :-(

about tokyo, the real problem is *how theses bugs did pass the quality
check* before to make tokyo in production ? i mean it's look like no one
in the dev team check any android application before to release tokyo ?
and worse as they completely refactor the plateform.android.pas (the
heart of the android support) they must be aware to even double check
all the android application and not just their hello world app !

it's scary :(

Markus Humm

Posts: 4,322
Registered: 11/9/03
Re: i m totally disappointed about emb :(
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  Posted: Mar 26, 2017 8:22 AM   in response to: loki loki in response to: loki loki
Am 26.03.2017 um 16:49 schrieb loki loki:
That was what I was refering to!
In Delphi you can only exploit it, if you do not need your code to stay
compatible with any of the non Nexgen compilers and you know this!
No need to go nitpicking here. Better tell us what EMBT has messed up in
their Android support in Tokyo... Because that's really severe/unuseable
in the current state. It doesn't seem to be noticeable in smallish "toy"
applications, but it's quite visible in real world sized apps.

Just came up with the idea that comparing a Berlin build of one of the
EMBT own mobile games against a Tokyo one could help, as for these EMBT
has the source code and thus a real world example and in a jump'n run or
arcade style game that effect should be visible easily... :-(

about tokyo, the real problem is *how theses bugs did pass the quality
check* before to make tokyo in production ? i mean it's look like no one
in the dev team check any android application before to release tokyo ?
and worse as they completely refactor the plateform.android.pas (the
heart of the android support) they must be aware to even double check
all the android application and not just their hello world app !

it's scary :(


I fully agree!
Maybe that's the reason they need Nick as new boss of development...

Greetings

Markus
loki loki

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Re: i m totally disappointed about emb :(
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  Posted: Mar 26, 2017 8:32 AM   in response to: Markus Humm in response to: Markus Humm
Maybe that's the reason they need Nick as new boss of development...

dependently if he is pro ARC or not :)
Dalija Prasnikar

Posts: 2,072
Registered: 11/9/99
Re: i m totally disappointed about emb :(
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  Posted: Mar 26, 2017 12:20 PM   in response to: loki loki in response to: loki loki
loki loki wrote:
Maybe that's the reason they need Nick as new boss of development...

dependently if he is pro ARC or not :)

I guess that his personal opinions will not matter. It is too late
to turn the ship around.

The only thing that can be "discussed" is how and when will ARC
be brought to currently non-ARC platforms.

--
Dalija Prasnikar
https://twitter.com/dalijap
https://plus.google.com/+DalijaPrasnikar
loki loki

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Re: i m totally disappointed about emb :(
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  Posted: Mar 26, 2017 12:33 PM   in response to: Dalija Prasnikar in response to: Dalija Prasnikar
On 3/26/2017 10:20 PM, Dalija Prasnikar wrote:
loki loki wrote:
Maybe that's the reason they need Nick as new boss of development...

dependently if he is pro ARC or not :)

I guess that his personal opinions will not matter. It is too late
to turn the ship around.

The only thing that can be "discussed" is how and when will ARC
be brought to currently non-ARC platforms.

yes exactly :) this why i say we don't need to think an eternity, we
need to make 2 set of dcu to have the possibility to have arc on desktop
(or not for old program and people like me who want speed)

that all ! 5 seconds on thinking and basta
Lars Fosdal


Posts: 125
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Re: i m totally disappointed about emb :(
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  Posted: Mar 27, 2017 7:13 AM   in response to: Dalija Prasnikar in response to: Dalija Prasnikar
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:
The only thing that can be "discussed" is how and when will ARC
be brought to currently non-ARC platforms.

Yesterday isn't soon enough. Two different memory life cycle models makes cross platform code a bloody mess.

--
http://plus.lars.fosdal.com
Delphi Developers Google+ Community: https://plus.google.com/communities/103113685381486591754 (8500+ members)
Dalija Prasnikar

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Re: i m totally disappointed about emb :(
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  Posted: Mar 27, 2017 7:20 AM   in response to: Lars Fosdal in response to: Lars Fosdal
Lars Fosdal wrote:
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:
The only thing that can be "discussed" is how and when will ARC
be brought to currently non-ARC platforms.

Yesterday isn't soon enough. Two different memory life cycle models makes cross platform code a bloody mess.

Agreed.

Problem is that devs working only on Windows might disagree.

They are comfy with status quo and see no reason to change.

--
Dalija Prasnikar
https://twitter.com/dalijap
https://plus.google.com/+DalijaPrasnikar
loki loki

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Re: i m totally disappointed about emb :(
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  Posted: Mar 27, 2017 7:27 AM   in response to: Dalija Prasnikar in response to: Dalija Prasnikar

Problem is that devs working only on Windows might disagree.

They are comfy with status quo and see no reason to change.

off course, who want to redo all their code ! they will never agree with
arc ... maybe they will agree for new project (maybe), this why their is
no other way that make arc as an option (and it's really easy to do)

the stupidity of arc under linux that block the migration of existing
win32 server app code to linux show how pity is the actual situation ...
Paul TOTH

Posts: 63
Registered: 1/2/17
Re: i m totally disappointed about emb :(
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  Posted: Mar 27, 2017 7:41 AM   in response to: Dalija Prasnikar in response to: Dalija Prasnikar
Le 27/03/2017 à 16:20, Dalija Prasnikar a écrit :
Lars Fosdal wrote:
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:
The only thing that can be "discussed" is how and when will ARC
be brought to currently non-ARC platforms.

Yesterday isn't soon enough. Two different memory life cycle models makes cross platform code a bloody mess.

Agreed.

Problem is that devs working only on Windows might disagree.

They are comfy with status quo and see no reason to change.

well even when they plan to use mobile dev, why should they change their
habits (and code) ?

BTW: Marco seems to like [weak] and [unsafe] for Interfaces
http://blog.marcocantu.com/blog/2016-april-weak-unsafe-interface-references.html

but not for ARC objects
<<It should be only used outside the System unit in very rare
situations. It is considered dangerous and its use is not recommended as
no code associated with reference counting is generated.>>

http://docwiki.embarcadero.com/RADStudio/Tokyo/en/Automatic_Reference_Counting_in_Delphi_Mobile_Compilers#The_Unsafe_Attribute

Delphi is getting very complex...
loki loki

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Re: i m totally disappointed about emb :(
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  Posted: Mar 27, 2017 7:52 AM   in response to: Paul TOTH in response to: Paul TOTH

Delphi is getting very complex...

yes and all of this for close to 0 gain ! no speed gain (total
opposite), no code simplification (the total of the total opposite right
now), no less memory leak (without kidding, no word to say how opposite
it is)

all of this is just for theory and maybe because swift did like this and
it's good to do like other :(
Mike Margerum

Posts: 519
Registered: 12/1/99
Re: i m totally disappointed about emb :(
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  Posted: Mar 27, 2017 9:57 AM   in response to: Dalija Prasnikar in response to: Dalija Prasnikar
Problem is that devs working only on Windows might disagree.

They are comfy with status quo and see no reason to change.

Spring4D makes non arc Delphi a pleasure to use. I dont think I would
be using Delphi if this did not exist.
Alexandre Machado

Posts: 1,430
Registered: 8/10/13
Re: i m totally disappointed about emb :(
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  Posted: Mar 27, 2017 7:14 PM   in response to: Dalija Prasnikar in response to: Dalija Prasnikar
They are comfy with status quo and see no reason to change.

Which exactly is the reason to change? I really would like to know.

If I have a 2 million LOC codebase working nicely since Delphi 5 times and then EMBT decides to force ARC down your throat. What exactly I'm gaining?

If you have a good answer to that, I suggest EMBT to hire you immediately as Chief Marketing Officer. You really deserve it.
loki loki

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Re: i m totally disappointed about emb :(
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  Posted: Mar 27, 2017 7:23 AM   in response to: Lars Fosdal in response to: Lars Fosdal
On 3/27/2017 5:13 PM, Lars Fosdal wrote:
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:
The only thing that can be "discussed" is how and when will ARC
be brought to currently non-ARC platforms.

Yesterday isn't soon enough. Two different memory life cycle models makes cross platform code a bloody mess.

We already saw how coherency went missing in the past years with the
push to adopt the ARC memory manager despite it being not the right
choice for highly parallel applications (Delphi still has too much focus
on "client" applications, even when it tries to appeal to server
applications developers, like now with the linux support).

I don't understand why they just start to add ARC in mobile without
thinking 5 min that it's not compatible with non arc code and in this
way will never arrive to desktop without a big pain like the disaster of
the unicode migration. The managing team don't have any brain or what :(

Dalija Prasnikar

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Re: i m totally disappointed about emb :(
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  Posted: Mar 25, 2017 11:03 AM   in response to: loki loki in response to: loki loki
loki loki wrote:
Apple does not have to. Their objects were already refcounted, so the
switch is between manual and automatic refcounting. AFAIK, on the Mac,
you can still do it manually, if you really really want that, although
I don't know many who would do that. ARC made many things much easier
on the Mac. It also makes many things easier in Delphi, but only if you
don't work against it, like loki seems to do.

ok, same question than the one i ask to dave : Can you just gave me only
one advantage of using ARC in delphi right now ?

Right now... no... because of cross-platform code. There are some gains
if you don't need to have your code compatible for non-ARC compiler.

But full advantages will appear only when all compilers move to ARC.

I am saying all along, that right now you are paying the price for ARC but
you don't have any gains.

--
Dalija Prasnikar
https://twitter.com/dalijap
https://plus.google.com/+DalijaPrasnikar
loki loki

Posts: 587
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Re: i m totally disappointed about emb :(
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  Posted: Mar 25, 2017 12:51 PM   in response to: Dalija Prasnikar in response to: Dalija Prasnikar
But full advantages will appear only when all compilers move to ARC.

I am saying all along, that right now you are paying the price for ARC but
you don't have any gains.

tss tss you made my laugh :) arc was introduced 6 years ago (yes 6 YEARS
ago, like an eternity in programing) and we still not see any advantage
nor any hope for the futur ... it's a pity :( pity that you don't
understand/share my point of view and stay in the deny :(
Dalija Prasnikar

Posts: 2,072
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Re: i m totally disappointed about emb :(
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  Posted: Mar 25, 2017 2:14 PM   in response to: loki loki in response to: loki loki
loki loki wrote:
But full advantages will appear only when all compilers move to ARC.

I am saying all along, that right now you are paying the price for ARC but
you don't have any gains.

tss tss you made my laugh :) arc was introduced 6 years ago (yes 6 YEARS
ago, like an eternity in programing) and we still not see any advantage
nor any hope for the futur ... it's a pity :( pity that you don't
understand/share my point of view and stay in the deny :(

It does not matter how long ago it was introduced. It cannot be used to its
fullest potential as long as you have cross-platform code for non-ARC compilers.

As long as there are two sets of compilers that will remain so. I have never stated
otherwise.

That also has nothing to do how good/bad ARC is. There is nothing wrong with
ARC as memory management model. Problem is with two compilers.

ARC works fine, and ARC could work fine. It only has to get rid of non-ARC
code that is holding it down.

--
Dalija Prasnikar
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Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: i m totally disappointed about emb :(
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  Posted: Mar 26, 2017 5:00 AM   in response to: loki loki in response to: loki loki
loki loki wrote:

Apple does not have to. Their objects were already refcounted, so
the switch is between manual and automatic refcounting. AFAIK, on
the Mac, you can still do it manually, if you really really want
that, although I don't know many who would do that. ARC made many
things much easier on the Mac. It also makes many things easier in
Delphi, but only if you don't work against it, like loki seems to
do.

ok, same question than the one i ask to dave : Can you just gave me
only one advantage of using ARC in delphi right now ?

The fact you don't have to take care of memory management anymore. That
is the one huge advantage. I love it. It is not that I can't manage
memory manually, but it is always nice not having to do that.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Everyone likes to say Hitler did this and Hitler did that. But
the truth is Hitler did very little. He was a world class
asshole, but the evil actually done, from the death camps to
World War Two, was all done by citizens who were afraid to
question if what they were told by their government was the
truth or not, and who because they did not want to admit to
themselves that they were afraid to question the government,
refused to see the truth behind the Reichstag Fire, refused to
see the invasion by Poland was a staged fake, and followed
Hitler into national disaster."
-- Michael Rivero
loki loki

Posts: 587
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Re: i m totally disappointed about emb :(
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  Posted: Mar 26, 2017 5:32 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
On 3/26/2017 3:00 PM, Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:
loki loki wrote:

Apple does not have to. Their objects were already refcounted, so
the switch is between manual and automatic refcounting. AFAIK, on
the Mac, you can still do it manually, if you really really want
that, although I don't know many who would do that. ARC made many
things much easier on the Mac. It also makes many things easier in
Delphi, but only if you don't work against it, like loki seems to
do.

ok, same question than the one i ask to dave : Can you just gave me
only one advantage of using ARC in delphi right now ?

The fact you don't have to take care of memory management anymore. That
is the one huge advantage. I love it. It is not that I can't manage
memory manually, but it is always nice not having to do that.

but you read a little what we say before to answer ? right now their is
close to 0 lines of code without the try ... finally .free end because
on desktop (where at least we debug) their is no arc support ..
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: i m totally disappointed about emb :(
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  Posted: Mar 26, 2017 11:15 AM   in response to: loki loki in response to: loki loki
loki loki wrote:

but you read a little what we say before to answer ? right now their
is close to 0 lines of code without the try ... finally .free end
because on desktop (where at least we debug) their is no arc support
..

There is now, for Linux. As Dalija already said: the problem with
cross-platform is that you must code for both manual memory management
and for ARC. That means you keep on using try-finally, Free, etc.
unless you only compile for ARC platforms.

But ARC can generally work with such code as well. That is why Free and
DisposeOf were defined as they are.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Real Programmers always confuse Christmas and Halloween because
Oct31 == Dec25 !" -- Andrew Rutherford
loki loki

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Re: i m totally disappointed about emb :(
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  Posted: Mar 26, 2017 12:30 PM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...

There is now, for Linux. As Dalija already said: the problem with
cross-platform is that you must code for both manual memory management
and for ARC. That means you keep on using try-finally, Free, etc.
unless you only compile for ARC platforms.

But ARC can generally work with such code as well. That is why Free and
DisposeOf were defined as they are.

i stop to discuss with you, because you are just a wall and it's simply
wasting time
Markus Humm

Posts: 4,322
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Re: i m totally disappointed about emb :(
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  Posted: Mar 27, 2017 11:44 AM   in response to: loki loki in response to: loki loki
Am 26.03.2017 um 21:30 schrieb loki loki:

There is now, for Linux. As Dalija already said: the problem with
cross-platform is that you must code for both manual memory management
and for ARC. That means you keep on using try-finally, Free, etc.
unless you only compile for ARC platforms.

But ARC can generally work with such code as well. That is why Free and
DisposeOf were defined as they are.

i stop to discuss with you, because you are just a wall and it's simply
wasting time

No, this time he's not.
His point that EMBT added .free and DisposeOf to ARC is exactly to be
able to use the old coding stile until they can ARC enable the
win32/win64 platform as well.

Rome was not built in a day either!
As much as I want improvements to Delphi I want them in a good quality
either and looking at the Android debakle right now I am for not
creating new stuff too quickly!

Greetings

Markus
loki loki

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Re: i m totally disappointed about emb :(
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  Posted: Mar 27, 2017 2:34 PM   in response to: Markus Humm in response to: Markus Humm

No, this time he's not.
His point that EMBT added .free and DisposeOf to ARC is exactly to be
able to use the old coding stile until they can ARC enable the
win32/win64 platform as well.

but old code, desktop code, don't have disposeOF, so in any case you
need to rewrite all your old code, so it's useless!

if at least emb did think 5 min and put the content of .disposeOF inside
the .free maybe it's will be a little more accurate (i think 95-98% of
old code will work in arc without any change in this way).

Rome was not built in a day either!

Rome was already build, because delphi was already one of the best
developpent tool in it's time ! now i m ashame to say that i work with
delphi ...

As much as I want improvements to Delphi I want them in a good quality
either and looking at the Android debakle right now I am for not
creating new stuff too quickly!

it's what i say for years now ! i complain last year about this in beta
program forum ... maybe because of this (i speak frankly what i think, i
m not mvp so i m free to say my opinion), this year they decide to not
invite me and seam no-one else did try the android compilation and you
see now the disaster ! disaster that is still not yet admitted
officially by emb ... bug report
(https://quality.embarcadero.com/browse/RSP-17162) is still in reported
state !

we don't need new feature! we don't need more complexity! we need
quality! quality! quality! and arc it's a typical example of a great new
feature that was introducing without any thinking and that is completely
useless and fully painless right now
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: i m totally disappointed about emb :(
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  Posted: Mar 27, 2017 2:53 PM   in response to: loki loki in response to: loki loki
loki loki wrote:


There is now, for Linux. As Dalija already said: the problem with
cross-platform is that you must code for both manual memory
management and for ARC. That means you keep on using try-finally,
Free, etc. unless you only compile for ARC platforms.

But ARC can generally work with such code as well. That is why Free
and DisposeOf were defined as they are.

i stop to discuss with you, because you are just a wall

I could say the same about you. <g>

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Sometimes it pays to stay in bed on Monday, rather than
spending the rest of the week debugging Monday's code."
-- Christopher Thompson
Markus Humm

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Re: i m totally disappointed about emb :(
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  Posted: Mar 26, 2017 7:41 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Am 26.03.2017 um 14:00 schrieb Rudy Velthuis (TeamB):
loki loki wrote:

Apple does not have to. Their objects were already refcounted, so
the switch is between manual and automatic refcounting. AFAIK, on
the Mac, you can still do it manually, if you really really want
that, although I don't know many who would do that. ARC made many
things much easier on the Mac. It also makes many things easier in
Delphi, but only if you don't work against it, like loki seems to
do.

ok, same question than the one i ask to dave : Can you just gave me
only one advantage of using ARC in delphi right now ?

The fact you don't have to take care of memory management anymore. That
is the one huge advantage. I love it. It is not that I can't manage
memory manually, but it is always nice not having to do that.

Hm?
Don't take care of? And what about those situations where you need to
declare something as weak to avoid a cycle?

Coding like this led to issues like in the BDS2006 IDE which (because of
not having understood .NET string handling good enough) sometimes ate
all available memory (up to the 2 GB a normal 32 bit process gets) and
got to an halt until the GC finally kicked in and slowly released stuff.

Yes, ARC is different to GC, but that cylces thing with weak should be
known to write proper ARC programs.

Greetings

Markus
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: i m totally disappointed about emb :(
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  Posted: Mar 26, 2017 11:38 AM   in response to: Markus Humm in response to: Markus Humm
Markus Humm wrote:

Am 26.03.2017 um 14:00 schrieb Rudy Velthuis (TeamB):
loki loki wrote:

Apple does not have to. Their objects were already refcounted, so
the switch is between manual and automatic refcounting. AFAIK, on
the Mac, you can still do it manually, if you really really want
that, although I don't know many who would do that. ARC made many
things much easier on the Mac. It also makes many things easier in
Delphi, but only if you don't work against it, like loki seems to
do.

ok, same question than the one i ask to dave : Can you just gave me
only one advantage of using ARC in delphi right now ?

The fact you don't have to take care of memory management anymore.
That is the one huge advantage. I love it. It is not that I can't
manage memory manually, but it is always nice not having to do that.

Hm?
Don't take care of? And what about those situations where you need to
declare something as weak to avoid a cycle?

Well, cycles are indeed the only thing you must care about, with
reference counting. The same actually applies to interfaces, but there,
it is not often a problem. With objects, it can be. <shrug>

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Everything has been figured out, except how to live."
-- Jean Paul Sartre
Dalija Prasnikar

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Re: i m totally disappointed about emb :(
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  Posted: Mar 26, 2017 12:17 PM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:
Markus Humm wrote:


Hm?
Don't take care of? And what about those situations where you need to
declare something as weak to avoid a cycle?

Well, cycles are indeed the only thing you must care about, with
reference counting. The same actually applies to interfaces, but there,
it is not often a problem. With objects, it can be. <shrug>

In case of reference cycles you have to determine proper ownership.
Just the same you have to determine proper ownership in manual
memory management or you may end up with dangling pointers or
freeing objects you don't own.

It is just different handling of same base problem.

--
Dalija Prasnikar
https://twitter.com/dalijap
https://plus.google.com/+DalijaPrasnikar
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: i m totally disappointed about emb :(
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  Posted: Mar 27, 2017 2:55 PM   in response to: Dalija Prasnikar in response to: Dalija Prasnikar
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:

Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:
Markus Humm wrote:


Hm?
Don't take care of? And what about those situations where you
need to declare something as weak to avoid a cycle?

Well, cycles are indeed the only thing you must care about, with
reference counting. The same actually applies to interfaces, but
there, it is not often a problem. With objects, it can be. <shrug>

In case of reference cycles you have to determine proper ownership.
Just the same you have to determine proper ownership in manual
memory management or you may end up with dangling pointers or
freeing objects you don't own.

It is just different handling of same base problem.

Indeed. But cycles prevent proper AUTOMATIC memory management with
refcounting. The notion of ARC is that it makes a lot of things easier.
It does, but only if you (can) avoid cycles.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Theology is never any help; it is searching in a dark cellar
at midnight for a black cat that isn't there. Theologians can
persuade themselves of anything."
-- Robert Heinlein
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: i m totally disappointed about emb :(
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  Posted: Mar 25, 2017 5:36 AM   in response to: loki loki in response to: loki loki
loki loki wrote:

That's just plain incorrect. Just because you're having problems
with ARC does not mean that it is not possible to develop mobile
apps with Delphi, with ARC. Many already do, including myself.

Hmm, what is exactly "many" for you ?

In this context: many = a lot of people.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Early to rise, Early to bed, Makes a man healthy but socially
dead." -- The Warner Brothers (Animaniacs)
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: i m totally disappointed about emb :(
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  Posted: Mar 25, 2017 5:49 AM   in response to: loki loki in response to: loki loki
loki loki wrote:

That's just plain incorrect. Just because you're having problems
with ARC does not mean that it is not possible to develop mobile
apps with Delphi, with ARC. Many already do, including myself.

Hmm, what is exactly "many" for you ? Their is some people who can
play chess and who can see thousands of thousands of combination in
instant, maybe be you are from these people, me i m not ... i m not a
super genius, i can't see fastly potential problem (like circular
reference) !

the big question: how do you know that their is not memory leak or
other potential problems in your app? their is 0 descent debugging
tool to say you so !

how do you know that the code :

procedure TForm1.btnClick(Sender: TObject);
begin
TTask.Create(procedure
begin
sleep(150);
TThread.Synchronize(nil,
procedure
begin
form1.tag := 1;
end);

end).start;
end;

will create a memory leak !? how do you know all other scenario that
will create a memory leak? and i repeat the question, how do you
simply know that you have a memory leak or not ?

right now under delphi it is not descent programing, this is far west
programing ! maybe you will be lucky and everything will be fine,
maybe not and you app will crash time to time (or will be more slow)
but you will not know why! and maybe it's will be not because of arc,
but again you will not know, because again i repeat 0 descent
debugging tool !

But don't say i say ARC is bad, to be honest i don't like verbosity
in the code and the possibility to write my code without any try ...
finally .free end it's so good ! i can't imagine javascript code with
all these try ... finally ! *but now be honest too, did you really
remove the try finally .free end from your code* ?? if not what the
hell is the purpose of the ARC under delphi (that the big question) ??

So can you say me the benefit of ARC ? the real benefit? say me why
your app is better with arc than without arc ! and please be honest
about arc ! i don't speak about theory, where arc is juicy, i speak
about the reality of now with delphi ! arc was introduced from ios,
so many year ago so it's not something new that you can say will
improve with time (time already show everything)

Of course if debugging under android/ios was descent (but that not
the fault of delphi, it's like this) yes maybe, if you developp only
you app for ios/android and not also for desktop/macos, yes maybe, if
arc was also in desktop/macos who have very descent debugging tool
(also memory leak report thanks to fastmm), yes maybe ... but it's a
lot of if and maybe :(

when apple introduce arc (and apple have much much more human
resource than emb to introduce such new feature that is really not
easy to introduce), they let the possibility to developer to stay on
non arc, why emb can't do so also ?

Because Apple's alternative to ARC was MANUAL reference counting, IOW
MRC. That was considered a problem for many already and that is why ARC
was introduced. Most people programming for the Mac love it. Hardly
anyone I know still uses manual refcounting, although it can be done.

Delphi objects were never manually reference counted. If enough people
wanted that, I guess that could be implemented (together with
auto-release pools, etc.), but I doubt many will want it. Neither would
you, I guess.
--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"For there was never yet philosopher
That could endure the toothache patiently.
-- William Shakespeare, Much Ado About Nothing
Markus Humm

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Re: i m totally disappointed about emb :(
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  Posted: Mar 25, 2017 2:30 AM   in response to: Dave Nottage in response to: Dave Nottage
Am 24.03.2017 um 23:07 schrieb Dave Nottage (TeamB):
loki loki wrote:

i don't understand why emb stay in this stupid situation with ARC on
mobile and non ARC on desktop ! just to avoid 2 set of DCU they destroy
the reputation of delphi and make mobile development (and linux now) a
nightmare.

the only solution is arc on mobile + desktop or non arc on mobile +
desktop. no need to speak years about it, because this is the only way
to go ! make 2 set of DCU and a compiler option to choose if we want ARC
or not arc

That's just plain incorrect. Just because you're having problems with ARC does not mean that it is not possible to
develop mobile apps with Delphi, with ARC. Many already do, including myself.

+1

And I would really suggest to the OP to contact the powers at EMBT to
ask about that memory leak bug he refers to regarding Android API string
conversions!

He might learn something about this then. I already did, but since it
was in a private mail I'll not post this. (the powers could of course
publish what they wrote to me in the QP report, but it's theirs to decide)

Greetings

markus
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: i m totally disappointed about emb :(
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  Posted: Mar 25, 2017 5:36 AM   in response to: loki loki in response to: loki loki
loki loki wrote:

On 3/24/2017 10:05 PM, Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:
loki loki wrote:

sincerely now that i remove arc code myself it's much more easy.

What on earth have you done? How did you "remove ARC"?

i updated the original delphi source code ! and now i see much (much)
less bug in my app :)

I don't get it. Did you modify the compiler, or System.pas or what and
if so, how did you do that?

Sorry, but "I modified the original Delphi source code" doesn't make
any sense.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"As with the Christian religion, the worst advertisement for
Socialism is its adherents."
-- George Orwell

loki loki

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Re: i m totally disappointed about emb :(
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  Posted: Mar 25, 2017 6:43 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...

I don't get it. Did you modify the compiler, or System.pas or what and
if so, how did you do that?

yes the system.pas :)
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: i m totally disappointed about emb :(
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  Posted: Mar 26, 2017 5:02 AM   in response to: loki loki in response to: loki loki
loki loki wrote:


I don't get it. Did you modify the compiler, or System.pas or what
and if so, how did you do that?

yes the system.pas :)

I assume you patched it.

You are aware of the fact that that is pretty dangerous, right? And
that it might introduce not so easy to detect errors too? No problem if
you are the only user of this, but quite careless if you pas this on to
your users.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"The target suffered a terminal illness before a firing squad
in Baghdad."
-- CIA officer at US Senate hearing on 1963 overthrow of Iraqi
Prime Minister Kassem
loki loki

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Re: i m totally disappointed about emb :(
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  Posted: Mar 26, 2017 5:33 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
You are aware of the fact that that is pretty dangerous, right? And
that it might introduce not so easy to detect errors too? No problem if
you are the only user of this, but quite careless if you pas this on to
your users.

not so dangerous as updating to tokyo as as see :( :( :(
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: i m totally disappointed about emb :(
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  Posted: Mar 26, 2017 11:15 AM   in response to: loki loki in response to: loki loki
loki loki wrote:

You are aware of the fact that that is pretty dangerous, right? And
that it might introduce not so easy to detect errors too? No
problem if you are the only user of this, but quite careless if you
pas this on to your users.

not so dangerous as updating to tokyo as as see :( :( :(

Huh?

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"It's so easy to become mesmerized by the immediacy of a result
that you don't question its validity." -- Naomi Karten
Markus Humm

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Re: i m totally disappointed about emb :(
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  Posted: Mar 27, 2017 11:46 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Am 26.03.2017 um 20:15 schrieb Rudy Velthuis (TeamB):
loki loki wrote:

You are aware of the fact that that is pretty dangerous, right? And
that it might introduce not so easy to detect errors too? No
problem if you are the only user of this, but quite careless if you
pas this on to your users.

not so dangerous as updating to tokyo as as see :( :( :(

Huh?

You have seen what EMBT obviously did to the Android platform support in
Tokyo? As it currently is that platform support is useless for real
world applications.

It works mostly for simple 1 edit and 1 button kind of apps, but that's
not the kind of app you and me are usually writing, correct?

Screen rendering became noticeably and measurably slower!

Greetings

Markus
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: i m totally disappointed about emb :(
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  Posted: Mar 27, 2017 3:01 PM   in response to: Markus Humm in response to: Markus Humm
Markus Humm wrote:

Am 26.03.2017 um 20:15 schrieb Rudy Velthuis (TeamB):
loki loki wrote:

You are aware of the fact that that is pretty dangerous, right?
And >>> that it might introduce not so easy to detect errors too? No
problem if you are the only user of this, but quite careless if
you >>> pas this on to your users.

not so dangerous as updating to tokyo as as see :( :( :(

Huh?

You have seen what EMBT obviously did to the Android platform support
in Tokyo?

I have read about it. I don't like Android, I don't program for
Android, so I have not experienced anything myself. Some seem to have
big problems, some only minor ones.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Peace is only possible if men cease to place their happiness
in the possession of things which cannot be shared."
-- Julien Benda
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: i m totally disappointed about emb :(
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  Posted: Mar 24, 2017 12:05 PM   in response to: Dalija Prasnikar in response to: Dalija Prasnikar
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:

Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:
loki loki wrote:

On 3/22/2017 5:11 PM, Dalija Prasnikar wrote:
Mike Margerum wrote:
Why don't you just switch to swift or java instead of beating
your head >> against Delphi?

I guess guy really likes Delphi ;-)

No delphi is a very good choice to do multi platform development!
i m just sad that because of stupid management team of emb my 6
months development cost me 1 year :(

I doubt it is management that causes your problems. Others manage to
write mobile apps quite well.

To be fair, there is huge number of issues in Delphi for mobile
platforms.

Of course, most of them is not ARC related, though ARC does bring
its share of the problems. Main issue with ARC in Delphi is that it
is hard to polish rough ends because there is no Windows based
ARC compiler and compiling/running/testing on mobile takes more time.

Indeed. The Linux compiler should make it a little easier too.
--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid
people are conservatives."
-- John Stuart Mill
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: i m totally disappointed about emb :(
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  Posted: Mar 21, 2017 11:32 AM   in response to: loki loki in response to: loki loki
loki loki wrote:

Your problem is that you don't focus on your issues which are
serious but focus on ranting instead. So people are not inclined to
listen.

yes it's sure that verity always hard to listen ! but remember even
if lies don't hurt at first view, it's will destroy you at the end,
and verity hurt but make you strong at the end !

What "verity" and what "lies"? Who is lying?

Fact is that Dalija is right: you obviously can't simply talk about an
issue without constantly ranting about how ARC sucks. We already know
you think it sucks, so why don't you, like a professional, simply
discuss the issues, and find a way to solve them, without the constant
rants?

Add to that that, AFAICT, often (not always, but often), your "bugs"
are not really bugs in ARC, they follow from misconceptions on your
side, i.e. it looks as if you don't fully seem to understand how to
work WITH ARC (because you don't want to) instead of constantly AGAINST
it.

Your rants won't make ARC go away, so why don't you try to go with the
flow, instead of constantly trying to swim upstream? It would make your
life a lot easier, I guess.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie!'... 'til you can
find a rock." -- bumper sticker
loki loki

Posts: 587
Registered: 7/1/02
Re: i m totally disappointed about emb :(
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  Posted: Mar 21, 2017 1:19 PM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...

What "verity" and what "lies"? Who is lying?

Fact is that Dalija is right: you obviously can't simply talk about an
issue without constantly ranting about how ARC sucks.

baaah no, i rant also about unicode ... and don't even speak about zero
base string with me ;) i rant about arc when the problem is connecting
to ARC (like it is now, not really arc but interface ref counting,
anyway the same atmosphere)

We already know
you think it sucks, so why don't you, like a professional, simply
discuss the issues, and find a way to solve them, without the constant
rants?

because the solution is to remove arc ! their is no other descent
solution! it's slow, it's buggy, it's suck ...

Add to that that, AFAICT, often (not always, but often), your "bugs"
are not really bugs in ARC, they follow from misconceptions on your
side, i.e. it looks as if you don't fully seem to understand how to
work WITH ARC (because you don't want to) instead of constantly AGAINST
it.

baah yes, but strangely when i ask sample of decent mobile app made with
delphi, i can count them on the finger of my hand ... maybe everyone
also have misconception not only me :)

Your rants won't make ARC go away, so why don't you try to go with the
flow, instead of constantly trying to swim upstream? It would make your
life a lot easier, I guess.

i already remove arc from my mobile app and it's much (by much, i mean
very very very much) more stable and powerfull now. so i don't care ! i
m just sad to be the only delphi mobile developer ;) the other seam to
not have the courage to remove arc also ;)
Markus Humm

Posts: 4,322
Registered: 11/9/03
Re: i m totally disappointed about emb :(
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  Posted: Mar 21, 2017 1:29 PM   in response to: loki loki in response to: loki loki
Am 21.03.2017 um 21:19 schrieb loki loki:


Your rants won't make ARC go away, so why don't you try to go with the
flow, instead of constantly trying to swim upstream? It would make your
life a lot easier, I guess.

i already remove arc from my mobile app and it's much (by much, i mean
very very very much) more stable and powerfull now. so i don't care ! i
m just sad to be the only delphi mobile developer ;)

That's wrong! I did develop some Delphi mobile app as well. It's
currently on hold because of something else being more importantly but
as soon as that one has been finished I resume it and ARC is no real
issue for me.

the other seam to not have the courage to remove arc also ;)

Because I don't need to because for me it works.
And it's not that I don't see some issues with Delphi mobile
programming! If you carefully look at QP I have way more issues there
than you! But the issue is not really ARC. That may have some not yet
resolved issues and having a bug of that order sitting there for so long
is really bad, but the main issue is not ARC. Period.

Greetings

Markus
loki loki

Posts: 587
Registered: 7/1/02
Re: i m totally disappointed about emb :(
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  Posted: Mar 21, 2017 1:51 PM   in response to: Markus Humm in response to: Markus Humm

That's wrong! I did develop some Delphi mobile app as well. It's
currently on hold because of something else being more importantly but
as soon as that one has been finished I resume it and ARC is no real
issue for me.

i m very impatient to see it :) if you need someone to test i m here ;)
I really would like to see/try a decent app made in delphi


Because I don't need to because for me it works.
And it's not that I don't see some issues with Delphi mobile
programming! If you carefully look at QP I have way more issues there
than you! But the issue is not really ARC. That may have some not yet
resolved issues and having a bug of that order sitting there for so long
is really bad, but the main issue is not ARC. Period.

of course me too, all the issues are not connecting to arc, i guess only
10% of my issues (maybe less, say 5%) are connected to arc. but as i
removed arc from delphi mobile it's long time i didn't saw any trouble
:) except now with this jstring but it's because it's not really arc but
reference counting of interface
Markus Humm

Posts: 4,322
Registered: 11/9/03
Re: i m totally disappointed about emb :(
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  Posted: Mar 22, 2017 9:46 AM   in response to: loki loki in response to: loki loki
Am 21.03.2017 um 21:51 schrieb loki loki:

That's wrong! I did develop some Delphi mobile app as well. It's
currently on hold because of something else being more importantly but
as soon as that one has been finished I resume it and ARC is no real
issue for me.

i m very impatient to see it :) if you need someone to test i m here ;)
I really would like to see/try a decent app made in delphi

The app is not meant to be published via Google Play and you would need
out industrial devices with which the app communicates to really make
sense out of it.

But the app already has 55 KLoc and is translated into about a dozend
languages (ok, translation is not yet 100% complete but about 90% of all
texts are translated).

Greetings

Markus
Dalija Prasnikar

Posts: 2,072
Registered: 11/9/99
Re: i m totally disappointed about emb :(
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  Posted: Mar 22, 2017 5:30 AM   in response to: loki loki in response to: loki loki
loki loki wrote:

i already remove arc from my mobile app and it's much (by much, i mean
very very very much) more stable and powerfull now. so i don't care ! i
m just sad to be the only delphi mobile developer ;) the other seam to
not have the courage to remove arc also ;)

What are you talking about? You cannot remove ARC from mobile it
is a compiler feature.

--
Dalija Prasnikar
https://twitter.com/dalijap
https://plus.google.com/+DalijaPrasnikar
loki loki

Posts: 587
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Re: i m totally disappointed about emb :(
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  Posted: Mar 22, 2017 5:40 AM   in response to: Dalija Prasnikar in response to: Dalija Prasnikar
On 3/22/2017 3:30 PM, Dalija Prasnikar wrote:
loki loki wrote:

i already remove arc from my mobile app and it's much (by much, i mean
very very very much) more stable and powerfull now. so i don't care ! i
m just sad to be the only delphi mobile developer ;) the other seam to
not have the courage to remove arc also ;)

What are you talking about? You cannot remove ARC from mobile it
is a compiler feature.

but i did ;) of course at the price of updating the delphi source code
... and now i drastically reduce the number of bug in my app :)
Dalija Prasnikar

Posts: 2,072
Registered: 11/9/99
Re: i m totally disappointed about emb :(
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  Posted: Mar 22, 2017 5:48 AM   in response to: loki loki in response to: loki loki
loki loki wrote:
On 3/22/2017 3:30 PM, Dalija Prasnikar wrote:
loki loki wrote:

i already remove arc from my mobile app and it's much (by much, i mean
very very very much) more stable and powerfull now. so i don't care ! i
m just sad to be the only delphi mobile developer ;) the other seam to
not have the courage to remove arc also ;)

What are you talking about? You cannot remove ARC from mobile it
is a compiler feature.

but i did ;) of course at the price of updating the delphi source code
... and now i drastically reduce the number of bug in my app :)

Yeah, right... you have removed ARC... you have hacked up something
but you didn't removed ARC all the way...

BTW, if you have removed ARC, then why is https://quality.embarcadero.com/browse/RSP-14187
bothering you...

--
Dalija Prasnikar
https://twitter.com/dalijap
https://plus.google.com/+DalijaPrasnikar
loki loki

Posts: 587
Registered: 7/1/02
Re: i m totally disappointed about emb :(
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  Posted: Mar 22, 2017 6:35 AM   in response to: Dalija Prasnikar in response to: Dalija Prasnikar
On 3/22/2017 3:48 PM, Dalija Prasnikar wrote:
loki loki wrote:
On 3/22/2017 3:30 PM, Dalija Prasnikar wrote:
loki loki wrote:

i already remove arc from my mobile app and it's much (by much, i mean
very very very much) more stable and powerfull now. so i don't care ! i
m just sad to be the only delphi mobile developer ;) the other seam to
not have the courage to remove arc also ;)

What are you talking about? You cannot remove ARC from mobile it
is a compiler feature.

but i did ;) of course at the price of updating the delphi source code
... and now i drastically reduce the number of bug in my app :)

Yeah, right... you have removed ARC... you have hacked up something
but you didn't removed ARC all the way...

BTW, if you have removed ARC, then why is https://quality.embarcadero.com/browse/RSP-14187
bothering you...

noo this is not ARC on object, it's on Interface, this why i have this
bug too. i didn't touch recfounting of Interface.

by the way tokyo (godzilla) is available today, and this bug is still
not yet corrected in it! so it is present in seattle, berlin and
godzilla even if reported from seattle.

so in godzilla, seattle, and berlin (on android) you can not (for
exemple) use the Httpclient without having soon or late your app crash!

it's a pity :(
Dalija Prasnikar

Posts: 2,072
Registered: 11/9/99
Re: i m totally disappointed about emb :(
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  Posted: Mar 22, 2017 7:13 AM   in response to: loki loki in response to: loki loki
loki loki wrote:
On 3/22/2017 3:48 PM, Dalija Prasnikar wrote:
loki loki wrote:
On 3/22/2017 3:30 PM, Dalija Prasnikar wrote:
loki loki wrote:

i already remove arc from my mobile app and it's much (by much, i mean
very very very much) more stable and powerfull now. so i don't care ! i
m just sad to be the only delphi mobile developer ;) the other seam to
not have the courage to remove arc also ;)

What are you talking about? You cannot remove ARC from mobile it
is a compiler feature.

but i did ;) of course at the price of updating the delphi source code
... and now i drastically reduce the number of bug in my app :)

Yeah, right... you have removed ARC... you have hacked up something
but you didn't removed ARC all the way...

BTW, if you have removed ARC, then why is https://quality.embarcadero.com/browse/RSP-14187
bothering you...

noo this is not ARC on object, it's on Interface, this why i have this
bug too. i didn't touch recfounting of Interface.

by the way tokyo (godzilla) is available today, and this bug is still
not yet corrected in it! so it is present in seattle, berlin and
godzilla even if reported from seattle.

so in godzilla, seattle, and berlin (on android) you can not (for
exemple) use the Httpclient without having soon or late your app crash!

it's a pity :(

Ok, I don't even want to imagine how that code of yours looks like...

Never mind...

But have you seen this: http://docwiki.embarcadero.com/RADStudio/Tokyo/en/What%27s_New

"Unification of Delphi and Java threads on Android: CallInUIThread has been deprecated.
All code is now running in the Java UI Thread, removing the need for thread synchronization. "

That should remove some synchronization issues you had...

--
Dalija Prasnikar
https://twitter.com/dalijap
https://plus.google.com/+DalijaPrasnikar
loki loki

Posts: 587
Registered: 7/1/02
Re: i m totally disappointed about emb :(
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  Posted: Mar 22, 2017 7:28 AM   in response to: Dalija Prasnikar in response to: Dalija Prasnikar
But have you seen this: http://docwiki.embarcadero.com/RADStudio/Tokyo/en/What%27s_New

"Unification of Delphi and Java threads on Android: CallInUIThread has been deprecated.
All code is now running in the Java UI Thread, removing the need for thread synchronization. "

That should remove some synchronization issues you had...

ooh that sound good! with the multi thread bitmap it's seam their is
something interesting in tokyo !
Markus Humm

Posts: 4,322
Registered: 11/9/03
Re: i m totally disappointed about emb :(
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  Posted: Mar 22, 2017 9:47 AM   in response to: loki loki in response to: loki loki
Am 22.03.2017 um 14:35 schrieb loki loki:
On 3/22/2017 3:48 PM, Dalija Prasnikar wrote:


BTW, if you have removed ARC, then why is https://quality.embarcadero.com/browse/RSP-14187
bothering you...

noo this is not ARC on object, it's on Interface, this why i have this
bug too. i didn't touch recfounting of Interface.

by the way tokyo (godzilla) is available today, and this bug is still
not yet corrected in it! so it is present in seattle, berlin and
godzilla even if reported from seattle.

That may well be. But if you had taken up my suggestion you would have
most likely learned the same thing I learned. But since I learned in a
pm I'll not post it here ;-)

Sorry for that teaser ;-)

Greetings

Markus
Rudy Velthuis (...


Posts: 6,446
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: i m totally disappointed about emb :(
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  Posted: Mar 24, 2017 5:17 AM   in response to: loki loki in response to: loki loki
loki loki wrote:

On 3/22/2017 3:30 PM, Dalija Prasnikar wrote:
loki loki wrote:

i already remove arc from my mobile app and it's much (by much, i
mean >> very very very much) more stable and powerfull now. so i
don't care ! i >> m just sad to be the only delphi mobile developer
;) the other seam to >> not have the courage to remove arc also ;)

What are you talking about? You cannot remove ARC from mobile it
is a compiler feature.

but i did ;)

Yeah, sure.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

Cutler Webster's Law: There are two sides to every argument,
unless a person is personally involved, in which case there is
only one.
Rudy Velthuis (...


Posts: 6,446
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: i m totally disappointed about emb :(
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  Posted: Mar 24, 2017 5:16 AM   in response to: loki loki in response to: loki loki
loki loki wrote:


What "verity" and what "lies"? Who is lying?

Fact is that Dalija is right: you obviously can't simply talk about
an issue without constantly ranting about how ARC sucks.

baaah no, i rant also about unicode ...

Yeah, you rant a lot. Unnecessarily. And it diverts from your real
problems as well. Stay professional, and people will be much more
inclined to help you.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Women should be obscene and not heard."
-- Groucho Marx
Paul TOTH

Posts: 63
Registered: 1/2/17
Re: i m totally disappointed about emb :(
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  Posted: Mar 26, 2017 11:56 AM   in response to: Markus Humm in response to: Markus Humm
Le 20/03/2017 à 21:14, Markus Humm a écrit :
Am 20.03.2017 um 12:48 schrieb loki loki:
I just discover an already know bug in firemonkey android.

this bug is very important (and blocking) because it's create memory
leak every time you use simple java type like string, integer or even
boolean. to gave you an exemple it's like everytime you use a String, an
integer or even a boolean their are never (never) release from the memory

https://quality.embarcadero.com/browse/RSP-14187

it's even worse on android because java permit to have maximun 65000
reference to such type, so your app will crash much faster than when
it's will be out of memory

why i m disappointed it's because this bug was discover in seattle, and
it's still not corrected in berlin (update 2). it's seam this bug is not
the priority of emb because this bug not appear in any demo. in fact you
need to use your app a quite long time dependly of what the app is doing
but if you do http request it's can be just several minutes.

So emb is selling "publisher", look good on the paper but in the
reality, after 6 months of development you see bug like this that
suddenly stop all your developments (you can not see such bug at the
first view)

i don't know who is responsible of the priority at emb


I'm quite sure you know the names of the product managers. Don't you?
They should at least in parts be responsible for sheduling work.

I suggest you write them about this issue to raise awarenes.

did you receive any reply for the mails you're talking about in the
private forum about that bug ?


Greetings

Markus
Markus Humm

Posts: 4,322
Registered: 11/9/03
Re: i m totally disappointed about emb :(
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  Posted: Mar 27, 2017 11:51 AM   in response to: Paul TOTH in response to: Paul TOTH
Am 26.03.2017 um 20:56 schrieb Paul TOTH:

i don't know who is responsible of the priority at emb

I'm quite sure you know the names of the product managers. Don't you?
They should at least in parts be responsible for sheduling work.

I suggest you write them about this issue to raise awarenes.

did you receive any reply for the mails you're talking about in the
private forum about that bug ?

Yes. I did.

Greetings

Markus
Registered User

Posts: 7
Registered: 3/4/05
Re: i m totally disappointed about emb :(
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  Posted: Mar 20, 2017 6:31 PM   in response to: loki loki in response to: loki loki
Wow, why am I paying a subscription if this show stopping junk is not fixed... This tech was released years ago and should be stable by now.

My app was unstoppable until i integrated Firedac with Datasnap, now it seems my bugs are limitless. Memory Leaks, Memory corruption are inherent and bugs in this & still not patched. (even reported and self fixed ones)

Have a new business app that i need to build to work with my delphi code, thinking that Firemonkey was a good way to go, maybe not...
Rudy Velthuis (...


Posts: 6,446
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Re: i m totally disappointed about emb :(
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  Posted: Mar 25, 2017 5:59 AM   in response to: Registered User in response to: Registered User
Registered User wrote:

Wow, why am I paying a subscription if this show stopping junk

What "show stopping junk"? If there was really a show stopper (in other
words: something that makes it impossible or nearly impossible to use
the product), it would have been fixed a long time ago.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

Marge: Now, I know you haven't liked some of my past
suggestions, like switching to the metric system --
Abe: The metric system is the tool of the devil! My car
gets forty rods to the hogshead and that's the way
I likes it.
-- The Simpsons episode "A Star is Burns"
wenjie zhou

Posts: 363
Registered: 6/28/02
Re: i m totally disappointed about emb :(
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  Posted: Mar 20, 2017 7:46 PM   in response to: loki loki in response to: loki loki
When I first saw Fire Monkey, I was full of doubt. It seemed my feeling is right.
I even worry that it will pollute VCL. And now, It did happen.

Take it easy. Maybe more worse means more better. Just stand aside and watch.

So, let it be. Just wait and see.
Markus Humm

Posts: 4,322
Registered: 11/9/03
Re: i m totally disappointed about emb :( [Edit]
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  Posted: Mar 21, 2017 9:46 AM   in response to: wenjie zhou in response to: wenjie zhou
Am 21.03.2017 um 03:47 schrieb wenjie zhou:
When I first saw Fire Monkey, I was full of doubt. It seemed my feeling is right.
I even worry that it will pollute VCL. And now, It did happen.

What did happen?
This bug is on a platform where VCL is not available.
Where is the pollution please?

Greetings

Markus
loki loki

Posts: 587
Registered: 7/1/02
Re: i m totally disappointed about emb :( [Edit]
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  Posted: Mar 21, 2017 9:57 AM   in response to: Markus Humm in response to: Markus Humm
What did happen?
This bug is on a platform where VCL is not available.
Where is the pollution please?

at least on the brand reputation for sure ...
Markus Humm

Posts: 4,322
Registered: 11/9/03
Re: i m totally disappointed about emb :( [Edit]
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  Posted: Mar 21, 2017 1:30 PM   in response to: loki loki in response to: loki loki
Am 21.03.2017 um 17:57 schrieb loki loki:
What did happen?
This bug is on a platform where VCL is not available.
Where is the pollution please?

at least on the brand reputation for sure ...

Regarding that issue you initially talked about?
Yes, I can agree to that to a large extend.
But it is not related to VCL at all.

Greetings

Markus
loki loki

Posts: 587
Registered: 7/1/02
Re: i m totally disappointed about emb :( [Edit]
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  Posted: Mar 21, 2017 1:54 PM   in response to: Markus Humm in response to: Markus Humm

Regarding that issue you initially talked about?
Yes, I can agree to that to a large extend.
But it is not related to VCL at all.

no not connected to vcl, but when you try to get informations about
delphi in forum, blog, etc you only hear the ~#@#~{ in firemonkey and
this spoil the reputation of delphi ... and of the VCL unfortunatly
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: i m totally disappointed about emb :( [Edit]
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  Posted: Mar 24, 2017 5:18 AM   in response to: Markus Humm in response to: Markus Humm
Markus Humm wrote:

Am 21.03.2017 um 17:57 schrieb loki loki:
What did happen?
This bug is on a platform where VCL is not available.
Where is the pollution please?

at least on the brand reputation for sure ...

Regarding that issue you initially talked about?
Yes, I can agree to that to a large extend.

I assume you meant "extent"?

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't
go away." -- Philip K. Dick.

Markus Humm

Posts: 4,322
Registered: 11/9/03
Re: i m totally disappointed about emb :( [Edit]
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  Posted: Mar 24, 2017 9:16 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Am 24.03.2017 um 13:18 schrieb Rudy Velthuis (TeamB):
Markus Humm wrote:

Am 21.03.2017 um 17:57 schrieb loki loki:
What did happen?
This bug is on a platform where VCL is not available.
Where is the pollution please?

at least on the brand reputation for sure ...

Regarding that issue you initially talked about?
Yes, I can agree to that to a large extend.

I assume you meant "extent"?

Yes.

Greetings

Markus
wenjie zhou

Posts: 363
Registered: 6/28/02
Re: i m totally disappointed about emb :( [Edit]
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  Posted: Mar 21, 2017 7:11 PM   in response to: Markus Humm in response to: Markus Humm
What did happen?
This bug is on a platform where VCL is not available.
Where is the pollution please?

Mess references. It first happend in FMX, and then RTL. e.g. RTTI.pas and typinfo.pas.

TList<T> in classes.pas, It's slow down and bloated VCL, but no benefit for windows customers.

TObject.DisposeOf(TObject.GetDisposed TObject.CheckDisposed) in VCL. I think you may understand why it exists in VCL/RTL on Windows. Does VCL need such alias for "Free"?

and etc.

If you don't try to look at the problem from another angle. There's always many excuses to prove its necessity.

You can don't agree with me. It doesn't matter. I do not want prove any thing.
I'm just trying to comfort loki loki. For many views, I am the same with loki loki
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Registered: 9/22/99
Re: i m totally disappointed about emb :( [Edit] [Edit]
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  Posted: Mar 25, 2017 5:57 AM   in response to: wenjie zhou in response to: wenjie zhou
wenjie zhou wrote:

What did happen?
This bug is on a platform where VCL is not available.
Where is the pollution please?

Mess references. It first happend in FMX, and then RTL. e.g.
RTTI.pas and typinfo.pas.

TList<T> in classes.pas, It's slow down and bloated VCL

No, it hasn't, or at least not anymore. As I said before, take a look
at the generated code. I have done that, and because of the new
intrinsics and the modified code for TList<T>, only the code that is
required for one single type (or range of types) is compiled. No more
bloat, no more slowdown. The types are resolved at compile time. And
you have the added advantage of type safety, which TList did not offer.

Also note that TList, which stores raw pointers, can't work with ARCed
objects. That is why the change to TList<T> was required.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

Goebel's Theorem Of Software Schedules: Always multiply a
software schedule by pi. This is because you think you're going
in a straight line but always end up going full circle.
wenjie zhou

Posts: 363
Registered: 6/28/02
Re: i m totally disappointed about emb :( [Edit] [Edit]
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  Posted: Mar 27, 2017 2:12 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
And you have the added advantage of type safety, which TList did not offer.

Meaningless & Unnecessary. Especially, for me, for loki loki , and for some of us.
Ronald Klitsche

Posts: 287
Registered: 8/26/01
Re: i m totally disappointed about emb :( [Edit] [Edit]
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  Posted: Mar 27, 2017 3:21 AM   in response to: wenjie zhou in response to: wenjie zhou
wenjie zhou wrote:
And you have the added advantage of type safety, which TList did not offer.

Meaningless & Unnecessary. Especially, for me, for loki loki , and for some of us.

Nothing is in vain: You pay this "type safety" with a 2.6x memory price:

TList<TObject>.InstanceSize = 52 Bytes
TList.InstanceSize = 20 Bytes.
Dalija Prasnikar

Posts: 2,072
Registered: 11/9/99
Re: i m totally disappointed about emb :( [Edit] [Edit]
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  Posted: Mar 27, 2017 4:18 AM   in response to: Ronald Klitsche in response to: Ronald Klitsche
Ronald Klitsche wrote:
wenjie zhou wrote:
And you have the added advantage of type safety, which TList did not offer.

Meaningless & Unnecessary. Especially, for me, for loki loki , and for some of us.

Nothing is in vain: You pay this "type safety" with a 2.6x memory price:

TList<TObject>.InstanceSize = 52 Bytes
TList.InstanceSize = 20 Bytes.

That is not so simple calculation.

Generics on their own don't increase instance size. So you get type safety for free.

Where generics fail - generate exe size bloat is with classes. For every
specific class you use complete code copy of TList<T> is put in exe.
In run time nothing is changed as far as instance size is concerned.

So why TList<T> instances are bigger than TList instances?

1. old TList was just a slightly better dynamic array replacement. It
barely has any functionality.

2. TList<T> has more functionality packed in and some of that functionality
is responsible for instance size increase.

3. In order to reduce exe size bloat implemented logic resulted in instance
size increase (I am not sure if some is also ARC related, haven't checked
that source for a while)

You can create custom generic TList<T> variant with only old TList functionality
and instance size would remain the same.

Old TList instance size was 20 bytes since forever... we are talking 20 years
time span at least. So 2.6 size increase for new improved version is not huge
price comparing to the current computers processing powers.

While there is certainly room for some improvement in generics area (compiler) that
would also have influence on TList<T> instance size, all else is just nitpicking.

Yes, progress does cost, sometimes tad more than it should, but without progress
we would still be stuck at Delphi 7.

--
Dalija Prasnikar
https://twitter.com/dalijap
https://plus.google.com/+DalijaPrasnikar

Edited by: Dalija Prasnikar on Mar 27, 2017 1:19 PM
Ronald Klitsche

Posts: 287
Registered: 8/26/01
Re: i m totally disappointed about emb :( [Edit] [Edit]
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  Posted: Mar 27, 2017 5:40 AM   in response to: Dalija Prasnikar in response to: Dalija Prasnikar
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:
You can create custom generic TList<T> variant with only old TList functionality
and instance size would remain the same.

Beside the InstanceSize, the runtime memory consumption of TList<T> is different to TList.
The TList.Grows linear, during the generic double size the buffer for each TListHelper.InternalGrow

That mean, if you work with TList<T> that reach by example 10MB and the next capacity steps will be 20MB, 40MB, 80MB ...
No steps between. This might perform very well ... but see my answer below.

Old TList instance size was 20 bytes since forever... we are talking 20 years
time span at least. So 2.6 size increase for new improved version is not huge
price comparing to the current computers processing powers.

Well, you will have a different view of this "few bytes", if you work with many instances of TList<T>.

Ronald
Dalija Prasnikar

Posts: 2,072
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Re: i m totally disappointed about emb :( [Edit] [Edit]
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  Posted: Mar 27, 2017 5:49 AM   in response to: Ronald Klitsche in response to: Ronald Klitsche
Ronald Klitsche wrote:
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:
You can create custom generic TList<T> variant with only old TList functionality
and instance size would remain the same.

Beside the InstanceSize, the runtime memory consumption of TList<T> is different to TList.
The TList.Grows linear, during the generic double size the buffer for each TListHelper.InternalGrow

That mean, if you work with TList<T> that reach by example 10MB and the next capacity steps will be 20MB, 40MB, 80MB ...
No steps between. This might perform very well ... but see my answer below.

File QP report if you have specific complaint that can be solved with different algorithm.

Old TList instance size was 20 bytes since forever... we are talking 20 years
time span at least. So 2.6 size increase for new improved version is not huge
price comparing to the current computers processing powers.

Well, you will have a different view of this "few bytes", if you work with many instances of TList<T>.

If you have specific needs then write your own container. I have done so.

--
Dalija Prasnikar
https://twitter.com/dalijap
https://plus.google.com/+DalijaPrasnikar
Markus Humm

Posts: 4,322
Registered: 11/9/03
Re: i m totally disappointed about emb :( [Edit] [Edit]
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  Posted: Mar 27, 2017 11:53 AM   in response to: Dalija Prasnikar in response to: Dalija Prasnikar
Am 27.03.2017 um 14:49 schrieb Dalija Prasnikar:
Ronald Klitsche wrote:
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:
You can create custom generic TList<T> variant with only old TList functionality
and instance size would remain the same.

Beside the InstanceSize, the runtime memory consumption of TList<T> is different to TList.
The TList.Grows linear, during the generic double size the buffer for each TListHelper.InternalGrow

That mean, if you work with TList<T> that reach by example 10MB and the next capacity steps will be 20MB, 40MB, 80MB ...
No steps between. This might perform very well ... but see my answer below.

File QP report if you have specific complaint that can be solved with different algorithm.

+1 for this and I'd even vote for the QP report if he presents the
number here.

Greetings

Markus
Dalija Prasnikar

Posts: 2,072
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Re: i m totally disappointed about emb :( [Edit] [Edit]
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  Posted: Mar 27, 2017 12:13 PM   in response to: Markus Humm in response to: Markus Humm
Markus Humm wrote:
Am 27.03.2017 um 14:49 schrieb Dalija Prasnikar:
Ronald Klitsche wrote:
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:
You can create custom generic TList<T> variant with only old TList functionality
and instance size would remain the same.

Beside the InstanceSize, the runtime memory consumption of TList<T> is different to TList.
The TList.Grows linear, during the generic double size the buffer for each TListHelper.InternalGrow

That mean, if you work with TList<T> that reach by example 10MB and the next capacity steps will be 20MB, 40MB, 80MB ...
No steps between. This might perform very well ... but see my answer below.

File QP report if you have specific complaint that can be solved with different algorithm.

+1 for this and I'd even vote for the QP report if he presents the
number here.

I would vote for it too.

In order to improve things we have to focus on solvable issues.

--
Dalija Prasnikar
https://twitter.com/dalijap
https://plus.google.com/+DalijaPrasnikar
Rudy Velthuis (...


Posts: 6,446
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: i m totally disappointed about emb :( [Edit] [Edit] [Edit]
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  Posted: Mar 27, 2017 3:15 PM   in response to: Ronald Klitsche in response to: Ronald Klitsche
Ronald Klitsche wrote:

Dalija Prasnikar wrote:
You can create custom generic TList<T> variant with only old TList
functionality and instance size would remain the same.

Beside the InstanceSize, the runtime memory consumption of TList<T>
is different to TList.

No, it isn't. Where did you get that notion?

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"News is what someone wants to suppress. Everything else is
advertising."
-- Ex-NBC news president Rubin Frank
Rudy Velthuis (...


Posts: 6,446
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: i m totally disappointed about emb :( [Edit] [Edit] [Edit]
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  Posted: Mar 27, 2017 3:14 PM   in response to: Dalija Prasnikar in response to: Dalija Prasnikar
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:

Ronald Klitsche wrote:
wenjie zhou wrote:
And you have the added advantage of type safety, which TList
did not offer.

Meaningless & Unnecessary. Especially, for me, for loki loki ,
and for some of us.

Nothing is in vain: You pay this "type safety" with a 2.6x memory
price:

TList<TObject>.InstanceSize = 52 Bytes
TList.InstanceSize = 20 Bytes.

That is not so simple calculation.

Generics on their own don't increase instance size. So you get type
safety for free.

Where generics fail - generate exe size bloat is with classes. For
every specific class you use complete code copy of TList<T> is put in
exe.

That used to be the case. Not anymore, because of the TListHelper,
which uses the new intrinsics to throw out a lot of code AT COMPILE
TIME. Decisions based on typeinfo don't have to be made at runtime
anymore, so the code is not bloated anymore and it is a lot faster
again.

Just take a look at, say, TListHelper<T>.Add and the code that is
generated from it. The routine looks terribly bloated, but in reality,
only one simple routine is compiled, that entirely matches the generic
parameter type. This is very slim and optimized for the type.

This is only possible because of the new intrinsics, which can remove
code at compile time. I was surprised to see the effect, but it really
works well.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Happiness is an imaginary condition, formerly attributed by
the living to the dead, now usually attributed by adults to
children, and by children to adults."
-- Thomas Szasz
Paul TOTH

Posts: 63
Registered: 1/2/17
Re: i m totally disappointed about emb :( [Edit] [Edit] [Edit]
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  Posted: Mar 27, 2017 11:46 PM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Le 28/03/2017 à 00:14, Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) a écrit :
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:

Ronald Klitsche wrote:
wenjie zhou wrote:
And you have the added advantage of type safety, which TList
did not offer.

Meaningless & Unnecessary. Especially, for me, for loki loki ,
and for some of us.

Nothing is in vain: You pay this "type safety" with a 2.6x memory
price:

TList<TObject>.InstanceSize = 52 Bytes
TList.InstanceSize = 20 Bytes.

That is not so simple calculation.

Generics on their own don't increase instance size. So you get type
safety for free.

Where generics fail - generate exe size bloat is with classes. For
every specific class you use complete code copy of TList<T> is put in
exe.

That used to be the case. Not anymore, because of the TListHelper,
which uses the new intrinsics to throw out a lot of code AT COMPILE
TIME. Decisions based on typeinfo don't have to be made at runtime
anymore, so the code is not bloated anymore and it is a lot faster
again.

Just take a look at, say, TListHelper<T>.Add and the code that is
generated from it. The routine looks terribly bloated, but in reality,
only one simple routine is compiled, that entirely matches the generic
parameter type. This is very slim and optimized for the type.

that's true, you've pointed me that out few time ago..

but seriously, do you think that having to put part of the code in a
Helper is a good practice of programming ? doesn't it look like a nasty
hack for an immature technologie ?

This is only possible because of the new intrinsics, which can remove
code at compile time. I was surprised to see the effect, but it really
works well.
Rudy Velthuis (...


Posts: 6,446
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: i m totally disappointed about emb :( [Edit] [Edit]
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  Posted: Mar 27, 2017 3:09 PM   in response to: Ronald Klitsche in response to: Ronald Klitsche
Ronald Klitsche wrote:

wenjie zhou wrote:
And you have the added advantage of type safety, which TList did
not offer.

Meaningless & Unnecessary. Especially, for me, for loki loki , and
for some of us.

Nothing is in vain: You pay this "type safety" with a 2.6x memory
price:

TList<TObject>.InstanceSize = 52 Bytes
TList.InstanceSize = 20 Bytes.

WHO the bloody hell cares about the size of a TList<T>? Unless you use
thousands of them (and who the heck does that?), it won't matter a lot.
The size of the payload has not changed, but the code bloat has been
reduced considerably, because the extra few bytes are used for a
TListHelper which only compiles that part of the code that is relevant
for the type parameter. That reduces code size considerably, and,
because many decisions based on typeinfo are now done at compile time,
it makes code faster too. Compared to that, the few extra bytes in a
TList<T> really don't matter.

And it may not matter to you, but type safety is one of the reasons
that makes Pascal-based languages so pleasant to use.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Nine out of ten doctors agree that one out of ten doctors is
an idiot."
Alexandre Machado

Posts: 1,430
Registered: 8/10/13
Re: i m totally disappointed about emb :( [Edit] [Edit]
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  Posted: Mar 27, 2017 7:44 PM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
WHO the bloody hell cares about the size of a TList<T>?

More people than people defending that you can increase every RTL base class by a 260% without even considering that it might hurt some applications.
Besides you (that will protect EMBT decisions even if they decide to change begin/end by curly braces), and Dalija who else thinks that way?
Stupid decisions one after another. It will certainly have a price. And of course you won't be affected. The same way that you are not affected if they decide to blow instance size of TObject too.
Rudy Velthuis (...


Posts: 6,446
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: i m totally disappointed about emb :( [Edit] [Edit]
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  Posted: Mar 27, 2017 3:02 PM   in response to: wenjie zhou in response to: wenjie zhou
wenjie zhou wrote:

And you have the added advantage of type safety, which TList did
not offer.

Meaningless & Unnecessary.

Meaningless? Really? Ok, then you are one of those, er, "pragmatists"
too?

Especially, for me, for loki loki , and
for some of us.

Yeah, some of you. <g>

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Before we blame, we should first see if we can excuse."
-- G. C. Lichtenberg
wenjie zhou

Posts: 363
Registered: 6/28/02
Re: i m totally disappointed about emb :( [Edit] [Edit]
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  Posted: Mar 27, 2017 11:41 PM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Meaningless & Unnecessary.

Meaningless? Really? Ok, then you are one of those, er, "pragmatists"
too?

"pragmatists". I love the word. Thanks. Haha. You are really the “pure Idealist“.
Rudy Velthuis (...


Posts: 6,446
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: i m totally disappointed about emb :( [Edit]
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  Posted: Mar 25, 2017 6:00 AM   in response to: wenjie zhou in response to: wenjie zhou
wenjie zhou wrote:

When I first saw Fire Monkey, I was full of doubt. It seemed my
feeling is right.

I had the same feeling, in the beginning. That has changed.
--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"In the begining there was nothing and God said 'Let there be
light', and there was still nothing but everybody could see it."
-- Dave Thomas.
Markus Humm

Posts: 4,322
Registered: 11/9/03
Re: i m totally disappointed about emb :( [Edit]
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  Posted: Mar 25, 2017 10:53 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Am 25.03.2017 um 14:00 schrieb Rudy Velthuis (TeamB):
wenjie zhou wrote:

When I first saw Fire Monkey, I was full of doubt. It seemed my
feeling is right.

I had the same feeling, in the beginning. That has changed.

I agree, it's gotten better at quite some places/fronts.
Will I stop complaining about certain issues because of this?
No, as it still has enough points for me to complain. But I use it never
the less, as it works well enough for me and I see they're further
fixing stuff. Just not always the stuff I'd like them to fix ;-)

Greetings

Markus
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: i m totally disappointed about emb :( [Edit]
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  Posted: Mar 26, 2017 5:06 AM   in response to: Markus Humm in response to: Markus Humm
Markus Humm wrote:

Just not always the stuff I'd like them to fix

Die Welt is nun einmal kein Ponyhof. <g>

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"The ability to simplify means to eliminate the unnecessary so
that the necessary may speak." -- Hans Hoffmann
Markus Humm

Posts: 4,322
Registered: 11/9/03
Re: i m totally disappointed about emb :( [Edit]
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  Posted: Mar 26, 2017 7:45 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Am 26.03.2017 um 14:06 schrieb Rudy Velthuis (TeamB):
Markus Humm wrote:

Just not always the stuff I'd like them to fix

Die Welt is nun einmal kein Ponyhof. <g>

No it's not. I know that sentence, but: when EMBT declars something
ready to ship I at least expect them to not nearly completely screw up
súpport for one of their platforms!

I don't know how such a hefty slowdown (see loki lokis demo app which
shows FPS and not only his, I did a short test of mine today as well and
scrolling is really slower compared to Berlin and I don't do anything in
main thread after the screen has been built up. I only do stuff if
somebody changes a value via some control, but that's a short action to
update internal representation and maybe update some label with a new
value) can happen...

Doesn't EMBT test with real world kind of apps?
I guess they'd noticed this when they would have tested their own games
they offered for Berlin via GetIt. :-(

Greetings

Markus
loki loki

Posts: 587
Registered: 7/1/02
Re: i m totally disappointed about emb :( [Edit]
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  Posted: Mar 26, 2017 7:59 AM   in response to: Markus Humm in response to: Markus Humm

No it's not. I know that sentence, but: when EMBT declars something
ready to ship I at least expect them to not nearly completely screw up
súpport for one of their platforms!

I don't know how such a hefty slowdown (see loki lokis demo app which
shows FPS and not only his, I did a short test of mine today as well and
scrolling is really slower compared to Berlin and I don't do anything in
main thread after the screen has been built up. I only do stuff if
somebody changes a value via some control, but that's a short action to
update internal representation and maybe update some label with a new
value) can happen...

Doesn't EMBT test with real world kind of apps?
I guess they'd noticed this when they would have tested their own games
they offered for Berlin via GetIt. :-(

Yes exactly what i say, it's real problem of quality control! in fact
all the app are 2x more slower (all), so how did they miss it !! off
course if the app is just doing hello world you will not notice it.
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: i m totally disappointed about emb :( [Edit]
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  Posted: Mar 26, 2017 11:36 AM   in response to: Markus Humm in response to: Markus Humm
Markus Humm wrote:

Doesn't EMBT test with real world kind of apps?
I guess they'd noticed this when they would have tested their own
games they offered for Berlin via GetIt. :-(

As they say: sh*t happens. I'm sure they'll find a solution.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"I don't really miss God, but I sure miss Santa Claus!"
-- Courtney Love
loki loki

Posts: 587
Registered: 7/1/02
Re: i m totally disappointed about emb :( [Edit]
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  Posted: Mar 26, 2017 12:39 PM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
On 3/26/2017 9:36 PM, Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:
Markus Humm wrote:

Doesn't EMBT test with real world kind of apps?
I guess they'd noticed this when they would have tested their own
games they offered for Berlin via GetIt. :-(

As they say: sh*t happens. I'm sure they'll find a solution.

I say i will not answer you anymore, but here i can't !
off course sheet happen, but generally before to sold a car you try at
the worse quality control level AT LEAST to ... START IT !!! here look
like no one try any app on android before to release tokyo, this is
crazy and scary !
steven chesser

Posts: 339
Registered: 4/13/09
Re: i m totally disappointed about emb :( [Edit]
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  Posted: Mar 27, 2017 7:46 AM   in response to: loki loki in response to: loki loki
loki loki wrote:
On 3/26/2017 9:36 PM, Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:
Markus Humm wrote:

Doesn't EMBT test with real world kind of apps?
I guess they'd noticed this when they would have tested their own
games they offered for Berlin via GetIt. :-(

As they say: sh*t happens. I'm sure they'll find a solution.

I say i will not answer you anymore, but here i can't !
off course sheet happen, but generally before to sold a car you try at
the worse quality control level AT LEAST to ... START IT !!! here look
like no one try any app on android before to release tokyo, this is
crazy and scary !

Mobile being a very volatile universe, there is room or time to be behind... let alone just not working.

VCL being very well behaved, all things considering... If EMB was to damage VCL bad enough, you could fall back a version of Delphi and
probably be 99.99% fine.

FMX doesn't have that luxury... and probably never will. With the ever changing world, this stuff has to be near perfection for it to be taken seriously.
The whole testing process for FMX has to be 100x more strict and 100x more indepth in their testing, to show it can be taken seriously as a business solution and not a hobby tool.

I am sure there will never be a way to make sure 100% works 100% across the board... but being 40% works across 40% across the board isn't acceptable either.

I myself, i am in 100% panic mode now... as my app for the company I work for, is now out. It works... it runs... but for how long? Eventually I will have to rely on EMB having a new
version that works so I can upgrade and move on... and the fact that stuff like this is still happening is a bit scary.. Imagine having to tell a CEO your app has to be re-written twice now
and 8 months of DEV and Test has to be 100% redone... because the dev tools you used just can't cut the mustard. This maybe my future.
loki loki

Posts: 587
Registered: 7/1/02
Re: i m totally disappointed about emb :( [Edit]
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  Posted: Mar 27, 2017 8:06 AM   in response to: steven chesser in response to: steven chesser
I myself, i am in 100% panic mode now... as my app for the company I work for, is now out. It works... it runs... but for how long? Eventually I will have to rely on EMB having a new
version that works so I can upgrade and move on... and the fact that stuff like this is still happening is a bit scary.. Imagine having to tell a CEO your app has to be re-written twice now
and 8 months of DEV and Test has to be 100% redone... because the dev tools you used just can't cut the mustard. This maybe my future.

phuuu and me ! i m also in panic mode ... now i m just currious how many
time they will make to correct the bug
(https://quality.embarcadero.com/browse/RSP-17162) ... in normal world,
must be days or week max.

here the problem is in the method of work, not really on the code
himself (because they do coding with can not say the opposite) but test
and debugging it's disaster ! maybe they must recruit more mvp and beta
tester if they don't have the resource to do it themselves ....
steven chesser

Posts: 339
Registered: 4/13/09
Re: i m totally disappointed about emb :( [Edit]
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  Posted: Mar 27, 2017 8:17 AM   in response to: loki loki in response to: loki loki
loki loki wrote:
I myself, i am in 100% panic mode now... as my app for the company I work for, is now out. It works... it runs... but for how long? Eventually I will have to rely on EMB having a new
version that works so I can upgrade and move on... and the fact that stuff like this is still happening is a bit scary.. Imagine having to tell a CEO your app has to be re-written twice now
and 8 months of DEV and Test has to be 100% redone... because the dev tools you used just can't cut the mustard. This maybe my future.

phuuu and me ! i m also in panic mode ... now i m just currious how many
time they will make to correct the bug
(https://quality.embarcadero.com/browse/RSP-17162) ... in normal world,
must be days or week max.

here the problem is in the method of work, not really on the code
himself (because they do coding with can not say the opposite) but test
and debugging it's disaster ! maybe they must recruit more mvp and beta
tester if they don't have the resource to do it themselves ....

I did have very high hopes... as Berlin while not perfect, was so far, best of the bunch. What didn't work well, was able to code around it. But it looked like
things were on the up and up ...

This.... I can't work around .... having Android app that can't paint it self or respond to user input in a timely fashion... iOS controls that disappear now ....

My only hope is Berlin takes me far enough that maybe Update 1 fixes all these issues.
loki loki

Posts: 587
Registered: 7/1/02
Re: i m totally disappointed about emb :( [Edit]
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  Posted: Mar 27, 2017 8:21 AM   in response to: steven chesser in response to: steven chesser
I did have very high hopes... as Berlin while not perfect, was so far, best of the bunch. What didn't work well, was able to code around it. But it looked like
things were on the up and up ...

yes berlin was not so bad, with bug of course but ok, i even didn't
install the update 1 and 2 (even if i feel the pain with xcode 10)


My only hope is Berlin takes me far enough that maybe Update 1 fixes all these issues.

we will see, and in the meantime don't forget to vote, i think they
start to work aggressively on an issue when it's reach a number of vote
Mike Margerum

Posts: 519
Registered: 12/1/99
Re: i m totally disappointed about emb :( [Edit]
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  Posted: Mar 27, 2017 10:02 AM   in response to: steven chesser in response to: steven chesser
I myself, i am in 100% panic mode now... as my app for the company I work for, is now out. It works... it runs... but for how long? Eventually I will have to rely on EMB having a new
version that works so I can upgrade and move on... and the fact that stuff like this is still happening is a bit scary.. Imagine having to tell a CEO your app has to be re-written twice now
and 8 months of DEV and Test has to be 100% redone... because the dev tools you used just can't cut the mustard. This maybe my future.

It finally occurred to me that the time I would be taking to massage FMX
/ Delphi to work and the time i'd spend upgrading to keep the ship
moving was probably going to be greater than just porting my Delphi code
to Swift for iOS and Mac. Swift is a terrific language. I'm glad I
chose this path.

Now I can keep my VCL app on Berlin and get off the hamster wheel.
Right tool. Right job.
Markus Humm

Posts: 4,322
Registered: 11/9/03
Re: i m totally disappointed about emb :( [Edit]
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  Posted: Mar 27, 2017 11:58 AM   in response to: Mike Margerum in response to: Mike Margerum
Am 27.03.2017 um 19:02 schrieb Mike Margerum:
I myself, i am in 100% panic mode now... as my app for the company I work for, is now out. It works... it runs... but for how long? Eventually I will have to rely on EMB having a new
version that works so I can upgrade and move on... and the fact that stuff like this is still happening is a bit scary.. Imagine having to tell a CEO your app has to be re-written twice now
and 8 months of DEV and Test has to be 100% redone... because the dev tools you used just can't cut the mustard. This maybe my future.

It finally occurred to me that the time I would be taking to massage FMX
/ Delphi to work and the time i'd spend upgrading to keep the ship
moving was probably going to be greater than just porting my Delphi code
to Swift for iOS and Mac. Swift is a terrific language. I'm glad I
chose this path.

Now I can keep my VCL app on Berlin and get off the hamster wheel.
Right tool. Right job.

Only if you do not want to support several platforms.
It may be that swift is available on different platforms now, but what
about GUi development with it for non iOS?
And didn't Swift get some incompatible changes in language in its short
life already?

I'd be for this one: a platform maker shall never create or maintain the
development tools for this platform. That would lead to ultimatively
better documentation of stuff, as the makers would really need to rely
on this and the platform maker cannot dictate so much.
As you can see I'm for free market and free platforms ;-)

Greetings

Markus
Dalija Prasnikar

Posts: 2,072
Registered: 11/9/99
Re: i m totally disappointed about emb :( [Edit]
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  Posted: Mar 27, 2017 12:30 PM   in response to: Markus Humm in response to: Markus Humm
Markus Humm wrote:
Am 27.03.2017 um 19:02 schrieb Mike Margerum:
I myself, i am in 100% panic mode now... as my app for the company I work for, is now out. It works... it runs... but for how long? Eventually I will have to rely on EMB having a new
version that works so I can upgrade and move on... and the fact that stuff like this is still happening is a bit scary.. Imagine having to tell a CEO your app has to be re-written twice now
and 8 months of DEV and Test has to be 100% redone... because the dev tools you used just can't cut the mustard. This maybe my future.

It finally occurred to me that the time I would be taking to massage FMX
/ Delphi to work and the time i'd spend upgrading to keep the ship
moving was probably going to be greater than just porting my Delphi code
to Swift for iOS and Mac. Swift is a terrific language. I'm glad I
chose this path.

Now I can keep my VCL app on Berlin and get off the hamster wheel.
Right tool. Right job.

Only if you do not want to support several platforms.
It may be that swift is available on different platforms now, but what
about GUi development with it for non iOS?
And didn't Swift get some incompatible changes in language in its short
life already?

Swift has in state of constant flux. It has changed do much I cannot
even remember what is current syntax for some most basic stuff.

Also latest compiler changes (beta) have broken so much that you have
Swift compiler engineers wondering if anyone has project that actually
compiles....

But overall, I am satisfied with using native tools for mobile. Android
Studio and Xcode.

I develop Android side first, and when that is polished I translate
to iOS. That process works well for me since there are lot of changes
during development process, and Android has extremely flexible GUI
xml system that enables me to make changes and combine things
in a way I could never do in Delphi or in anything else (I haven't tried
Xamarin, yet). So time lost in translation to iOS and fighting against Java
is gained in other places.

So grass is not greener on the other side, all tools are buggy as hell,
and each platform has it's own nuisances. I can see how Delphi can be
good solution for some, but I also see how it can be bad one. It just
does not fit all use cases well. One thing is for sure, it has to be better
in order to compete. And most serious issues it has are not exactly
related to ARC, as you already know.

--
Dalija Prasnikar
https://twitter.com/dalijap
https://plus.google.com/+DalijaPrasnikar
Mike Margerum

Posts: 519
Registered: 12/1/99
Re: i m totally disappointed about emb :( [Edit]
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  Posted: Mar 27, 2017 4:52 PM   in response to: Markus Humm in response to: Markus Humm

Only if you do not want to support several platforms.
It may be that swift is available on different platforms now, but what
about GUi development with it for non iOS?
And didn't Swift get some incompatible changes in language in its short
life already?

I'd be for this one: a platform maker shall never create or maintain the
development tools for this platform. That would lead to ultimatively
better documentation of stuff, as the makers would really need to rely
on this and the platform maker cannot dictate so much.
As you can see I'm for free market and free platforms ;-)

Greetings

Markus

If I had to target android, i'd probably just learn Java/Kotlin and the
SDK. I don't think Swift on Android is going to be any better than
Delphi on Android for the same reasons.

Swift did have breaking changes that were not insignificant, but didn't
take me that long to patch up. About a day. I think the breaking
changes were necessary and in the end a good thing. They have promised
to stop doing that. Fingers crossed.

Like Dalija said every platform has its issues. I guess i'd rather pay
the up front development cost of using the native tools to have an
easier time during the support phase.
Rudy Velthuis (...


Posts: 6,446
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: i m totally disappointed about emb :( [Edit]
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  Posted: Mar 27, 2017 2:57 PM   in response to: loki loki in response to: loki loki
loki loki wrote:

On 3/26/2017 9:36 PM, Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:
Markus Humm wrote:

Doesn't EMBT test with real world kind of apps?
I guess they'd noticed this when they would have tested their own
games they offered for Berlin via GetIt. :-(

As they say: sh*t happens. I'm sure they'll find a solution.

I say i will not answer you anymore, but here i can't !
off course sheet happen, but generally before to sold a car you try
at the worse quality control level AT LEAST to ... START IT

Yeah, and you make a test drive. I got it.

As I said, shit happens (sheets probably too, but not what I meant.
<g>).

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"The graveyards are full of indispensable men."
-- Charles de Gaulle (1890-1970)
loki loki

Posts: 587
Registered: 7/1/02
Re: i m totally disappointed about emb :( [Edit]
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  Posted: Mar 27, 2017 3:20 PM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
I say i will not answer you anymore, but here i can't !
off course sheet happen, but generally before to sold a car you try
at the worse quality control level AT LEAST to ... START IT

Yeah, and you make a test drive. I got it.

heuu when i speak about car seller i speak about brand like bmw who
start to produce a new car (like xn for example) and before to start the
production and sell the car i hope they try at least to see if the car
they just design start ...
wenjie zhou

Posts: 363
Registered: 6/28/02
Re: i m totally disappointed about emb :( [Edit]
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  Posted: Mar 27, 2017 2:18 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
I had the same feeling, in the beginning. That has changed.

No change. I can hardly see the app(General application) build with delphi on mobile.

No Internet vendors dare to use Delphi build app on mobile.
The enterprise oriented wider customers, the less willing to use Delphi.
Do it changed? No, Just the opposite.
Rudy Velthuis (...


Posts: 6,446
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: i m totally disappointed about emb :( [Edit] [Edit]
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  Posted: Mar 27, 2017 3:16 PM   in response to: wenjie zhou in response to: wenjie zhou
wenjie zhou wrote:

I had the same feeling, in the beginning. That has changed.

No change. I can hardly see the app(General application) build with
delphi on mobile.

I can't see it either, from here. <g>

Or what exactly did you mean? ISTM that quite a few people are using
Delphi to build mobile apps, and probably most of them for Android.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"If you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into
you." -- Friedrich Nietzsche (1844-1900)
wenjie zhou

Posts: 363
Registered: 6/28/02
Re: i m totally disappointed about emb :( [Edit] [Edit]
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  Posted: Mar 27, 2017 6:24 PM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Or what exactly did you mean?
Just like FacebookMessenger, YouTube , Gmail, Pandora, Yahoo Stocks, Instagram ....

ISTM that quite a few people are using
Delphi to build mobile apps, and probably most of them for Android.

For small groups customers, not so high quality requirements. That is the reality
Andrey Efimov

Posts: 3
Registered: 11/1/08
Re: i m totally disappointed about emb :(
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  Posted: Mar 24, 2017 2:45 PM   in response to: loki loki in response to: loki loki
https://quality.embarcadero.com/browse/RSP-16800

Edited by: Andrey Efimov on Mar 24, 2017 2:46 PM
loki loki

Posts: 587
Registered: 7/1/02
Re: i m totally disappointed about emb :( [Edit]
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  Posted: Mar 24, 2017 2:50 PM   in response to: Andrey Efimov in response to: Andrey Efimov
On 3/25/2017 12:46 AM, Andrey Efimov wrote:
https://quality.embarcadero.com/browse/RSP-16800

Edited by: Andrey Efimov on Mar 24, 2017 2:46 PM

Andrey, can you say me how you take the memory dump ?
Markus Humm

Posts: 4,322
Registered: 11/9/03
Re: i m totally disappointed about emb :( [Edit]
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  Posted: Mar 25, 2017 2:42 AM   in response to: loki loki in response to: loki loki
Am 24.03.2017 um 22:50 schrieb loki loki:
On 3/25/2017 12:46 AM, Andrey Efimov wrote:
https://quality.embarcadero.com/browse/RSP-16800

Edited by: Andrey Efimov on Mar 24, 2017 2:46 PM

Andrey, can you say me how you take the memory dump ?

Hello,

yes that would be interesting.
Besides voting for the report I asked to describe the method used in
detail there as well.

Might also be well worth for an EMBT blog post.

Greetings

Markus
Andrey Efimov

Posts: 3
Registered: 11/1/08
Re: i m totally disappointed about emb :( [Edit]
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  Posted: Mar 25, 2017 4:03 AM   in response to: Markus Humm in response to: Markus Humm
I have the status of the MVP.
Unfortunately, I'm not sure I can write the instructions publicly.
Markus Humm

Posts: 4,322
Registered: 11/9/03
Re: i m totally disappointed about emb :( [Edit]
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  Posted: Mar 25, 2017 5:05 AM   in response to: Andrey Efimov in response to: Andrey Efimov
Am 25.03.2017 um 12:03 schrieb Andrey Efimov:
I have the status of the MVP.
Unfortunately, I'm not sure I can write the instructions publicly.

What does this mean exactly?
You might not be allowed to tell us how you did this memory dump as it
uses methods which shall not get public?

Or does it simply mean: I might not be able to write some EMBT blog post
as I lack permission to do so?

Just curious and I'm also keen to finally get something like FastMM
memory leak checking on mobile! That would be really important I think
and it could help EMBT as well because we might find the one or other
leak/issue with such a help as well which only happens in some certain
combination nobody tested yet.

Greetings

Markus
Andrey Efimov

Posts: 3
Registered: 11/1/08
Re: i m totally disappointed about emb :( [Edit]
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  Posted: Mar 25, 2017 9:20 AM   in response to: Markus Humm in response to: Markus Humm
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