Watch, Follow, &
Connect with Us

For forums, blogs and more please visit our
Developer Tools Community.


Welcome, Guest
Guest Settings
Help

Thread: Just a thought...



Permlink Replies: 42 - Last Post: Feb 5, 2017 7:06 PM Last Post By: Rudy Velthuis (...
> Rich <

Posts: 171
Registered: 2/6/09
Just a thought...
Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this thread Reply
  Posted: Dec 15, 2016 1:09 PM
Delphi used to be THE premier application building IDE. Then it moved to a coding instead of a component based focus. Now it's really having problems in the marketplace.

Anyone here think Delphi should have STAYED focused on component based dev? I know you can still use components but how far advanced would Delphi be now if the focus would NOT have shifted to hand coding in place of component based dev?
Clement Doss

Posts: 133
Registered: 9/19/00
Re: Just a thought...
Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this thread Reply
  Posted: Dec 15, 2016 2:13 PM   in response to: > Rich < in response to: > Rich <
> Rich < wrote:
Delphi used to be THE premier application building IDE. Then it moved to a coding instead of a component based focus. Now it's really having problems in the marketplace.

IMHO Delphi evolved a lot but without loosing its roots. You can still today use component base development, and of course coding.
Depending on the application needs I use only component base, very fast, very trustworthy especially for small projects. Very fast time to market, but somwhat harder to maintain.
On the other hand, for large project I only use coding. Nothing is created at design time. Slow time to market, faster to maintain.

Again, as much as I hate to bring this up, I believe the main problem delphi have this days is the price.
A company I work for just decided to keep Delphi XE because moving to Delphi Berlin ( 4 Enterprise licenses + Subscriptions ) would cost more than doing the project in C# (Development, Debug, Test). They don't need FMX or Android or IOS, so the enviroment, in this case, would be most useless for the price. Even the professional sku with subscription wasn't worth it.

In the last Conference here in Brazil I spoke to Embarcadero and brought this delicate subject. They have a "clichet" answer : Use one environment for multi platform. They lost at least 10 sales at the conference that day because it is expensive. Those folks will keep their respective XE* and can't migrate to Berlin. Since then at least 3 companies ( 2 Enterprise developers each ) I work with will keep XE* and consider other options (Java, C#). And today another 4 enterprise licenses fadded away.

Embarcadero is doing a great job with Delphi. Berlin is amazing, but it is cheaper to get 3 free environment and hire 3 developers to do a project in 3 different platform, then purchasing the 3 Enterprise ( or Professional) licenses.

Clément
Erick Engelke

Posts: 101
Registered: 12/5/02
Re: Just a thought...
Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this thread Reply
  Posted: Dec 15, 2016 2:42 PM   in response to: Clement Doss in response to: Clement Doss
Clement Doss wrote:

Again, as much as I hate to bring this up, I believe the main problem delphi have this days is the price.

It is a huge factor. When I was researching for my new book: Enterprise Delphi Databases, I used mORMot so you could program cool web based servers with only Delphi Professional - which I think costs $1,000 per year. It's also compatible with older Delphi back to D6.

The test market said they like object pascal but not expensive Delphi. Then I found out NewPascal (a FPC derivative) supports the same mORMot code base and works on both Windows and Linux. And its IDE has come a long way.

Many of the clients indicated they had to use NewPascal for financial reasons.

I personally use the multiplatform features of Delphi Pro and can justify it, but wish they offered a Win32/64 only variant for people who are in that category.

But with mORMot middleware available, I cannot justify Delphi Architect or whatever.

Erick

--
Erick Engelke
Enterprise Delphi Databases Book
Using Elevate Web Builder Book
HTML5 Builder Book
http://www.erickengelke.com
Markus Humm

Posts: 5,113
Registered: 11/9/03
Re: Just a thought...
Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this thread Reply
  Posted: Dec 16, 2016 8:14 AM   in response to: Erick Engelke in response to: Erick Engelke
Am 15.12.2016 um 23:42 schrieb N/A Programmer:
Clement Doss wrote:

Again, as much as I hate to bring this up, I believe the main problem delphi have this days is the price.

It is a huge factor. When I was researching for my new book: Enterprise Delphi Databases,

Hello,

is this book already available?
If yes, where? Does it provide some sample chapter and the toc?

Greetings

Markus
Erick Engelke

Posts: 101
Registered: 12/5/02
Re: Just a thought...
Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this thread Reply
  Posted: Dec 19, 2016 7:04 PM   in response to: Markus Humm in response to: Markus Humm
Markus Humm wrote:
Am 15.12.2016 um 23:42 schrieb N/A Programmer:
Clement Doss wrote:

Again, as much as I hate to bring this up, I believe the main problem delphi have this days is the price.

It is a huge factor. When I was researching for my new book: Enterprise Delphi Databases,

Hello,

is this book already available?
If yes, where? Does it provide some sample chapter and the toc?

Hi, It's available on Amazon US, UK and EU as of this week. It is about 2/3rds about mORMot.
See my blog at http://erickeneglke.com for a description of the chapters.

--
Erick Engelke
Enterprise Delphi Databases Book
Using Elevate Web Builder Book
HTML5 Builder Book
Read my Delphi blog
http://www.erickengelke.com
Steven Mitchell

Posts: 16
Registered: 5/8/97
Re: Just a thought...
Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this thread Reply
  Posted: Dec 20, 2016 12:30 PM   in response to: Erick Engelke in response to: Erick Engelke
N/A Programmer wrote:

Hi, It's available on Amazon US, UK and EU as of this week. It is
about 2/3rds about mORMot. See my blog at http://erickeneglke.com
for a description of the chapters.

FTR, the blog URL is incorrect (spelling error). It should be:
http://www.erickengelke.com/

Cheers,
Steve
Brian Hamilton ...

Posts: 556
Registered: 10/14/04
Re: Just a thought...
Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this thread Reply
  Posted: Dec 15, 2016 3:40 PM   in response to: Clement Doss in response to: Clement Doss
but if there were on SA then the cost would have been much less
Rodrigo Gomez C...

Posts: 32
Registered: 3/16/00
Re: Just a thought...
Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this thread Reply
  Posted: Dec 15, 2016 6:00 PM   in response to: Brian Hamilton ... in response to: Brian Hamilton ...
On 15/12/2016 05:40 p. m., Brian Hamilton Hamilton wrote:
but if there were on SA then the cost would have been much less

I'm not sure, in this example. If they were in XE and wanted to move to Berlin, that's
what, 3 years of updates? Maybe more, I don't quite keep track of it. If it's just 3
years, I believe it would have not be cheaper but actually more expensive than just paying
the upgrade price.

For me, for instance, it doesn't really make sense to update the IDE every time they
release a new version. It's a lot of work (depends of course from what version to what
version) and usually, there are no improvements to justify that. I could probably be
working with RAD Studio 2006 (I am amazed everytime I open it and use it of the speed,
compared to, for instance, Berlin) as I don't need yet FMX and all related stuff. Just
Win32/Win64 apps.

I finally bit the bullet with Berlin because it appears to have finally fixed some
problems I had with the Debugger (I mostly use C++, and the debugger was almost unusable
since RS 2006 IIRC), and I am happy with it and moving my old projects there, but
certainly it would had been much more expensive to pay SA for 10 years than the 2 upgrades
or so I bought. This time I had to buy SA, and apparently that's going to be the new norm,
but if I do keep paying for SA, it would be only for the promise of the support incidents,
not because I want or even can upgrade every new release.

My 2 cents.

Rodrigo Gómez
Remy Lebeau (Te...


Posts: 9,447
Registered: 12/23/01
Re: Just a thought...
Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this thread Reply
  Posted: Dec 15, 2016 6:34 PM   in response to: Rodrigo Gomez C... in response to: Rodrigo Gomez C...
Rodrigo wrote:

If they were in XE and wanted to move to Berlin, that's what,
3 years of updates?

6 years, actually. XE was released in 2010, Berlin was released in 2016.

I don't quite keep track of it.

http://delphi.wikia.com/wiki/Delphi_Release_Dates

--
Remy Lebeau (TeamB)
Markus Humm

Posts: 5,113
Registered: 11/9/03
Re: Just a thought...
Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this thread Reply
  Posted: Dec 16, 2016 8:19 AM   in response to: Rodrigo Gomez C... in response to: Rodrigo Gomez C...
Am 16.12.2016 um 03:00 schrieb Rodrigo Gomez Cordova:
On 15/12/2016 05:40 p. m., Brian Hamilton Hamilton wrote:
but if there were on SA then the cost would have been much less

I'm not sure, in this example. If they were in XE and wanted to move to Berlin, that's
what, 3 years of updates? Maybe more, I don't quite keep track of it. If it's just 3
years, I believe it would have not be cheaper but actually more expensive than just paying
the upgrade price.

For me, for instance, it doesn't really make sense to update the IDE every time they
release a new version. It's a lot of work (depends of course from what version to what
version) and usually, there are no improvements to justify that. I could probably be
working with RAD Studio 2006 (I am amazed everytime I open it and use it of the speed,
compared to, for instance, Berlin) as I don't need yet FMX and all related stuff. Just
Win32/Win64 apps.

BDS2006 sometimes ate all available memory and thus got to an halt until
the GC kicked in and gradually released the memory until the IDE could
be used again. Took a few minites and happened only ocassionally.

D2007 fixed this.

EMBT is now moving to a model of longer release cycles of approx. 1 year
instead of 1/2 year with updates in between. A move I like.

I can see why there was a need for such short release cycles, but since
that is not so much needed anymore going back to the old cycle is a good
thing.

Greetings

Markus
Clement Doss

Posts: 133
Registered: 9/19/00
Re: Just a thought...
Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this thread Reply
  Posted: Dec 20, 2016 12:54 PM   in response to: Brian Hamilton ... in response to: Brian Hamilton ...
Brian Hamilton Hamilton wrote:
but if there were on SA then the cost would have been much less

Delphi is no longer their main stream IDE. It makes no sence to go SA. They also doesn't need Mobile support as they are using other IDE.
Alexandre Machado

Posts: 1,754
Registered: 8/10/13
Re: Just a thought...
Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this thread Reply
  Posted: Dec 18, 2016 1:54 PM   in response to: Clement Doss in response to: Clement Doss
Clement Doss wrote:
> Rich < wrote:
Delphi used to be THE premier application building IDE. Then it moved to a coding instead of a component based focus. Now it's really having problems in the marketplace.

IMHO Delphi evolved a lot but without loosing its roots. You can still today use component base development, and of course coding.
Depending on the application needs I use only component base, very fast, very trustworthy especially for small projects. Very fast time to market, but somwhat harder to maintain.
On the other hand, for large project I only use coding. Nothing is created at design time. Slow time to market, faster to maintain.

Again, as much as I hate to bring this up, I believe the main problem delphi have this days is the price.
A company I work for just decided to keep Delphi XE because moving to Delphi Berlin ( 4 Enterprise licenses + Subscriptions ) would cost more than doing the project in C# (Development, Debug, Test). They don't need FMX or Android or IOS, so the enviroment, in this case, would be most useless for the price. Even the professional sku with subscription wasn't worth it.

In the last Conference here in Brazil I spoke to Embarcadero and brought this delicate subject. They have a "clichet" answer : Use one environment for multi platform. They lost at least 10 sales at the conference that day because it is expensive. Those folks will keep their respective XE* and can't migrate to Berlin. Since then at least 3 companies ( 2 Enterprise developers each ) I work with will keep XE* and consider other options (Java, C#). And today another 4 enterprise licenses fadded away.

Embarcadero is doing a great job with Delphi. Berlin is amazing, but it is cheaper to get 3 free environment and hire 3 developers to do a project in 3 different platform, then purchasing the 3 Enterprise ( or Professional) licenses.

Although I agree with your main point, i.e. Delphi is extremely expensive in some countries, I don't agree with your math.

I know how US Dollar exchange rate affects price of Delphi in Brazil, and I also know how companies tend to underpay developers there. However, only if you have a very small application the cost of a developer can be lower than the price of Delphi itself.

Even if Delphi costs BRL 15K (a little more than US$ 4K), if you hire a, say, senior Java developer, how many months can you pay him with the same 15K? 2 months? Actually less than 2 months (probably 5 weeks!), because you know how much a worker costs in Brazil, right (taxes paid by the company, social security, 13th salary, 30-day paid vacations, etc. etc. etc.)? So, actually, what a single Java developer can create in less than 2 months? A toy application, right? Nothing serious can't ever be developed at that price. You could try to use contractor workers, but it won't get you much further than that as well.
Markus Humm

Posts: 5,113
Registered: 11/9/03
Re: Just a thought... [Edit]
Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this thread Reply
  Posted: Dec 19, 2016 1:32 PM   in response to: Alexandre Machado in response to: Alexandre Machado
Am 19.12.2016 um 04:39 schrieb Alexandre Machado:
Clement Doss wrote:
> Rich < wrote:
Delphi used to be THE premier application building IDE. Then it moved to a coding instead of a component based focus. Now it's really having problems in the marketplace.

IMHO Delphi evolved a lot but without loosing its roots. You can still today use component base development, and of course coding.
Depending on the application needs I use only component base, very fast, very trustworthy especially for small projects. Very fast time to market, but somwhat harder to maintain.
On the other hand, for large project I only use coding. Nothing is created at design time. Slow time to market, faster to maintain.

Again, as much as I hate to bring this up, I believe the main problem delphi have this days is the price.
A company I work for just decided to keep Delphi XE because moving to Delphi Berlin ( 4 Enterprise licenses + Subscriptions ) would cost more than doing the project in C# (Development, Debug, Test). They don't need FMX or Android or IOS, so the enviroment, in this case, would be most useless for the price. Even the professional sku with subscription wasn't worth it.

In the last Conference here in Brazil I spoke to Embarcadero and brought this delicate subject. They have a "clichet" answer : Use one environment for multi platform. They lost at least 10 sales at the conference that day because it is expensive. Those folks will keep their respective XE* and can't migrate to Berlin. Since then at least 3 companies ( 2 Enterprise developers each ) I work with will keep XE* and consider other options (Java, C#). And today another 4 enterprise licenses fadded away.

Embarcadero is doing a great job with Delphi. Berlin is amazing, but it is cheaper to get 3 free environment and hire 3 developers to do a project in 3 different platform, then purchasing the 3 Enterprise ( or Professional) licenses.

Although I agree with your main point, i.e. Delphi is extremely expensive in some countries, I don't agree with your math.

I know how US Dollar exchange rate affects price of Delphi in Brazil, and I also know how companies tend to underpay developers there. However, only if you have a very small application the cost of a developer can be lower than the price of Delphi itself.

Even if Delphi costs BRL 15K (a little more than US$ 4K), if you hire a, say, senior Java developer, how many months can you pay him with the same 15K? 2 months? Actually less than 2 months (probably 5 weeks!), because you know how much a worker costs in Brazil, right (taxes paid by the company, social security, 13th salary, 30-day paid vacations, etc. etc. etc.)? So, actually, what a single Java developer can create in less than 2 months? A toy application, right? Nothing serious can't ever be developed
at that price. You could try to use contractor workers, but it won't get you much further than that as well.

Btw. I read some article today from Germanys biggest IT magazine where
they wrote that some parts of Java are not really free but required
licencing and that Oracle seems to start to look more and more after
people using these parts to pay for those properly.
=> can increase the cost of Java. The article didn't tell any prices
unfortunately.

Greetings

Markus
Erick Engelke

Posts: 101
Registered: 12/5/02
Re: Just a thought...
Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this thread Reply
  Posted: Dec 19, 2016 7:30 PM   in response to: Alexandre Machado in response to: Alexandre Machado
Alexandre Machado wrote:
Clement Doss wrote:
> Rich < wrote:
Delphi used to be THE premier application building IDE. Then it moved to a coding instead of a component based focus. Now it's really having problems in the marketplace.

Again, as much as I hate to bring this up, I believe the main problem delphi have this days is the price.
A company I work for just decided to keep Delphi XE because moving to Delphi Berlin ( 4 Enterprise licenses + Subscriptions ) would cost more than doing the project in C# (Development, Debug, Test). They don't need FMX or Android or IOS, so the enviroment, in this case, would be most useless for the price. Even the professional sku with subscription wasn't worth it.

Ironically, Borland originally made sales because they were inexpensive. I don't remember the price on
Turbo Pascal for CP/M, but I remember Turbo C for DOS was $99 US where MS C was around $799 and much slower to compile at the time.

There are third party tools that empower Delphi Pro to do enterprise development, some are even free, but Emb. doesn't promote them because they complete with their own.

In the last Conference here in Brazil I spoke to Embarcadero and brought this delicate subject. They have a "clichet" answer : Use one environment for multi platform. They lost at least 10 sales at the conference that day because it is expensive. Those folks will keep their respective XE* and can't migrate to Berlin. Since then at least 3 companies ( 2 Enterprise developers each ) I work with will keep XE* and consider other options (Java, C#). And today another 4 enterprise licenses fadded away.

I'm pretty sure licensing will become an issue with Java under Oracle's reign.

--
Erick Engelke
Enterprise Delphi Databases Book
Using Elevate Web Builder Book
HTML5 Builder Book
Read my Delphi blog
http://www.erickengelke.com
Rudy Velthuis (...


Posts: 7,731
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: Just a thought...
Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this thread Reply
  Posted: Dec 20, 2016 12:06 AM   in response to: Erick Engelke in response to: Erick Engelke
N/A Programmer wrote:

Alexandre Machado wrote:
Clement Doss wrote:
> Rich < wrote:
Delphi used to be THE premier application building IDE. Then it
moved to a coding instead of a component based focus. Now it's
really having problems in the marketplace.

Again, as much as I hate to bring this up, I believe the main
problem delphi have this days is the price. A company I work for
just decided to keep Delphi XE because moving to Delphi Berlin (
4 Enterprise licenses + Subscriptions ) would cost more than
doing the project in C# (Development, Debug, Test). They don't
need FMX or Android or IOS, so the enviroment, in this case,
would be most useless for the price. Even the professional sku
with subscription wasn't worth it.

Ironically, Borland originally made sales because they were
inexpensive.

They still have inexpensive products (Starter).

Note that TP 1 etc. were pretty limited. Only version 4 and above were
useful for anything better than a .com file.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Prohibition goes beyond reason in that it attempts to control
a man's appetite through legislation. A prohibition law strikes
a blow at the very principles this country was founded upon."
-- Abraham Lincoln
David Pratt

Posts: 9
Registered: 5/21/98
Re: Just a thought...
Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this thread Reply
  Posted: Jan 31, 2017 9:04 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:

Ironically, Borland originally made sales because they were
inexpensive.

They still have inexpensive products (Starter).

The Starter versions are essentially Crippleware; You can only program for Win32 using VCL and no Database connectivity either. And IIRC, you cannot add component packages either. I have better capability with my RAD Studio XE2, even if it is over 5 years old.

Markus Humm

Posts: 5,113
Registered: 11/9/03
Re: Just a thought...
Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this thread Reply
  Posted: Jan 31, 2017 10:56 AM   in response to: David Pratt in response to: David Pratt
Am 31.01.2017 um 18:04 schrieb David Pratt:
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:

Ironically, Borland originally made sales because they were
inexpensive.

They still have inexpensive products (Starter).

The Starter versions are essentially Crippleware; You can only program for Win32 using VCL and no Database connectivity either. And IIRC, you cannot add component packages either. I have better capability with my RAD Studio XE2, even if it is over 5 years old.


In comparison to your RAD Studio XE2 the starter edition costs how much
money? Yes: that's zero!
And it can control complete airplanes as well, so it's not
"underpowered" or too crippled. See this German article and do remember:
EMBT needs to make some money to fund Delphi development!

https://www.danielwolf.eu/blog/2016/1817-mit-der-delphi-starter-edition-einen-flughafen-steuern

Greetings

Markus
Dan Barclay

Posts: 889
Registered: 11/9/03
Re: Just a thought...
Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this thread Reply
  Posted: Jan 31, 2017 11:52 AM   in response to: Markus Humm in response to: Markus Humm
Markus Humm wrote:
Am 31.01.2017 um 18:04 schrieb David Pratt:
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:

Ironically, Borland originally made sales because they were
inexpensive.

They still have inexpensive products (Starter).

The Starter versions are essentially Crippleware; You can only program for Win32 using VCL and no Database connectivity either. And IIRC, you cannot add component packages either. I have better capability with my RAD Studio XE2, even if it is over 5 years old.


In comparison to your RAD Studio XE2 the starter edition costs how much
money? Yes: that's zero!
And it can control complete airplanes as well, so it's not
"underpowered" or too crippled. See this German article and do remember:
EMBT needs to make some money to fund Delphi development!

https://www.danielwolf.eu/blog/2016/1817-mit-der-delphi-starter-edition-einen-flughafen-steuern

Hmmm... maybe I need to abandon my current apps in favor of controlling airplanes. Heck, I'm a pilot and engineer, spending many years as a manager and engineer for industrial control systems.

Dan
Eivind Bakkestuen


Posts: 447
Registered: 5/8/01
Re: Just a thought...
Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this thread Reply
  Posted: Jan 31, 2017 7:42 PM   in response to: David Pratt in response to: David Pratt
The Starter versions are essentially Crippleware; You can only
program for Win32 using VCL and no Database connectivity either. And

The base database classes are there though, so it is possible to add on
3rd party databases; eg our NexusDB Starter Edition (at only AUD100,
it's a steal).

IIRC, you cannot add component packages either. I have better
capability with my RAD Studio XE2, even if it is over 5 years old.

You can add component packages; the problem is that there is no command
line compiler for installers to use, so either the installer must come
with DCU files, or components must be installed manually using the IDE.

--
Eivind Bakkestuen [NDD]
Rudy Velthuis (...


Posts: 7,731
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: Just a thought...
Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this thread Reply
  Posted: Feb 5, 2017 7:06 PM   in response to: David Pratt in response to: David Pratt
David Pratt wrote:

Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:

Ironically, Borland originally made sales because they were
inexpensive.

They still have inexpensive products (Starter).

The Starter versions are essentially Crippleware;


Wrong. See below.

You can only program for Win32 using VCL and no Database connectivity
either. And IIRC, you cannot add component packages either.

Wrong. You can add component packages and write your own DB
functionality, or get a third party (open source?) package.

Of course a cheap product does not have all the capabilities of the
more expensive SKUs, but the Starter products are no more limited than
the early (D2 - D5 or even later) Standard SKUs. You are thinking of
the Turbo products from a few years ago. The thing I missed most in the
Standard products was that they did not come with the source code for
the libraries, so I bought the Professional SKUs.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"This isn't right, this isn't even wrong."
-- Wolfgang Pauli (1900-1958), upon reading a young physicist's
paper
Markus Humm

Posts: 5,113
Registered: 11/9/03
Re: Just a thought...
Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this thread Reply
  Posted: Dec 20, 2016 9:05 AM   in response to: Erick Engelke in response to: Erick Engelke
Am 20.12.2016 um 04:30 schrieb N/A Programmer:


I'm pretty sure licensing will become an issue with Java under Oracle's reign.

See my post from yesterday in this very same subthread.
Some renowed German IT magazine officially anticipates this already for
2017.

Greetings

Markus
Clement Doss

Posts: 133
Registered: 9/19/00
Re: Just a thought...
Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this thread Reply
  Posted: Dec 20, 2016 1:10 PM   in response to: Alexandre Machado in response to: Alexandre Machado
Although I agree with your main point, i.e. Delphi is extremely expensive in some countries, I don't agree with your math.

I know how US Dollar exchange rate affects price of Delphi in Brazil, and I also know how companies tend to underpay developers there. However, only if you have a very small application the cost of a developer can be lower than the price of Delphi itself.

Even if Delphi costs BRL 15K (a little more than US$ 4K), if you hire a, say, senior Java developer, how many months can you pay him with the same 15K? 2 months? Actually less than 2 months (probably 5 weeks!), because you know how much a worker costs in Brazil, right (taxes paid by the company, social security, 13th salary, 30-day paid vacations, etc. etc. etc.)? So, actually, what a single Java developer can create in less than 2 months? A toy application, right? Nothing serious can't ever be developed at that price. You could try to use contractor workers, but it won't get you much further than that as well.

What's wrong with my math? 4x20.000 = R$80.000 ( Enterprise license + Subscription). That's almost U$24K. The project itself will cost around U$ 20K.
In this case a Java senior developper (U$2.5K /month) for 11 months for that price.
If you hire a 3rd party developper then you skip 13th salary, 30 day paid vacation etc..
Any way.. Why should a company spend U$24K + U$20K for a delphi solution for that project? (BTW this project is for a big company that won't spend much, sound familiar, ? :) )
Alexandre Machado

Posts: 1,754
Registered: 8/10/13
Re: Just a thought...
Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this thread Reply
  Posted: Dec 20, 2016 1:38 PM   in response to: Clement Doss in response to: Clement Doss
What's wrong with my math? 4x20.000 = R$80.000 ( Enterprise license + Subscription). That's almost U$24K. The project itself will cost around U$ 20K.
In this case a Java senior developper (U$2.5K /month) for 11 months for that price.
If you hire a 3rd party developper then you skip 13th salary, 30 day paid vacation etc..
Any way.. Why should a company spend U$24K + U$20K for a delphi solution for that project? (BTW this project is for a big company that won't spend much, sound familiar, ? :) )

There are a few things wrong with your math:
- You cannot hire a senior developer for that price as an employee. I'm sure you know that - in Brazil - if you pay US$ 2.5K/month, the worker actually costs more than 5K/month to the company. So you can hire a senior Java developer for 4 months, or 4 Java devs for 1 month. Can 4 Java devs finish your project within one month? Maybe you can find contractors for that price but you know the risks involved (legal and related to project itself), right? And you know... you will probably get what you pay for....
- If you don't need 4 developers for it, why should you need 4 Delphi licenses? I'm sure that you know that in practice, 4 developers don't create anything 4 times faster than one...
- Are you sure you need the enterprise version of Delphi for a single project?

And finally: Delphi is not intended to be a tool that you buy for a single small project. If you are continually working with it, the cost per project is actually small compared to the development costs.
Clement Doss

Posts: 133
Registered: 9/19/00
Re: Just a thought...
Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this thread Reply
  Posted: Dec 21, 2016 7:00 AM   in response to: Alexandre Machado in response to: Alexandre Machado
There are a few things wrong with your math:
- You cannot hire a senior developer for that price as an employee. I'm sure you know that - in Brazil - if you pay US$ 2.5K/month, the worker actually costs more than 5K/month to the company. So you can hire a senior Java developer for 4 months, or 4 Java devs for 1 month. Can 4 Java devs finish your project within one month? Maybe you can find contractors for that price but you know the risks involved (legal and related to project itself), right? And you know... you will probably get what you pay for....
- If you don't need 4 developers for it, why should you need 4 Delphi licenses? I'm sure that you know that in practice, 4 developers don't create anything 4 times faster than one...
- Are you sure you need the enterprise version of Delphi for a single project?

And finally: Delphi is not intended to be a tool that you buy for a single small project. If you are continually working with it, the cost per project is actually small compared to the development costs.

Up to delphi XE all 4 programmers were using Delphi enterprise edition. It was their mainstream IDE since Delphi 4. They were in SA.
Thing changed and Delphi no longer became the main IDE. As consequence they no longer paid the SA.
A few weeks back they contacted EMB here in brazil for a delphi update (XE to Berlin) simply because a legacy application would benefit from it.
They were very interrested in Delphi Berlin until they heard the price. The cost of "re-entry" the subscription scared them for good. They will keep developping in XE as long as they can while migrating everything else to other "more cost/effective" IDE ( Visual studio, Android Studio, and another one i do recall right now).
What happened here is very simple: They gave up for good delphi upgrade. For them nothing justified the high price (even with the amnesty discount).
All they needed was good old Object Pascal Enterprise compiler with Database support. (Enterprise is required because the application uses high end databases)

To keep this post in the subject, all they wanted was to keep developing with Components and/or coding as they did since Delphi 4 (No mobile at that time, no need for mobile today).
The price scared them away. That's all.
Markus Humm

Posts: 5,113
Registered: 11/9/03
Re: Just a thought...
Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this thread Reply
  Posted: Dec 21, 2016 11:59 AM   in response to: Clement Doss in response to: Clement Doss
Am 21.12.2016 um 16:00 schrieb Clement Doss:
There are a few things wrong with your math:
- You cannot hire a senior developer for that price as an employee. I'm sure you know that - in Brazil - if you pay US$ 2.5K/month, the worker actually costs more than 5K/month to the company. So you can hire a senior Java developer for 4 months, or 4 Java devs for 1 month. Can 4 Java devs finish your project within one month? Maybe you can find contractors for that price but you know the risks involved (legal and related to project itself), right? And you know... you will probably get what you pay for.
..
- If you don't need 4 developers for it, why should you need 4 Delphi licenses? I'm sure that you know that in practice, 4 developers don't create anything 4 times faster than one...
- Are you sure you need the enterprise version of Delphi for a single project?

And finally: Delphi is not intended to be a tool that you buy for a single small project. If you are continually working with it, the cost per project is actually small compared to the development costs.

Up to delphi XE all 4 programmers were using Delphi enterprise edition. It was their mainstream IDE since Delphi 4. They were in SA.
Thing changed and Delphi no longer became the main IDE. As consequence they no longer paid the SA.
A few weeks back they contacted EMB here in brazil for a delphi update (XE to Berlin) simply because a legacy application would benefit from it.
They were very interrested in Delphi Berlin until they heard the price. The cost of "re-entry" the subscription scared them for good. They will keep developping in XE as long as they can while migrating everything else to other "more cost/effective" IDE ( Visual studio, Android Studio, and another one i do recall right now).
What happened here is very simple: They gave up for good delphi upgrade. For them nothing justified the high price (even with the amnesty discount).
All they needed was good old Object Pascal Enterprise compiler with Database support. (Enterprise is required because the application uses high end databases)

To keep this post in the subject, all they wanted was to keep developing with Components and/or coding as they did since Delphi 4 (No mobile at that time, no need for mobile today).
The price scared them away. That's all.

Your last sentence "no need for mobile" contradicts with "Android
studio" further up in your post.

Greetings

Markus
Clement Doss

Posts: 133
Registered: 9/19/00
Re: Just a thought...
Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this thread Reply
  Posted: Dec 22, 2016 7:16 AM   in response to: Markus Humm in response to: Markus Humm
Your last sentence "no need for mobile" contradicts with "Android
studio" further up in your post.

Hi Markus,

Sorry I didn't express myself clearly. When they acquired XE there was no FMX, so they forked their development and added Android Studio for their mobile development.
They are still maintaining their Delphi app with XE, and also continuing to develop their mobile solution with Android Studio.
Berlin come with a LOT more features than they need. They don't have required mobile support from Delphi IDE, since they are using Android Studio since XE ( 2011? )

Since EMB considered an App Method alternative and a RAD Server product why not a new Delphi personality for Desktop Only ( Professional and Enterprise ) ?
They already have a Database Pack. So I guess a Desktop personality with Database Pack support would be cost effective.

Clement

Alexandre Machado

Posts: 1,754
Registered: 8/10/13
Re: Just a thought...
Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this thread Reply
  Posted: Dec 21, 2016 1:17 PM   in response to: Clement Doss in response to: Clement Doss
I definitely agree that R$ 20K is extremely expensive and just a few companies can afford that.
Erick Engelke

Posts: 101
Registered: 12/5/02
Re: Just a thought...
Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this thread Reply
  Posted: Dec 21, 2016 7:21 PM   in response to: Alexandre Machado in response to: Alexandre Machado
Alexandre Machado wrote:
Clement Doss wrote:
Again, as much as I hate to bring this up, I believe the main problem delphi have this days is the price.

Although I agree with your main point, i.e. Delphi is extremely expensive in some countries, I don't agree with your math.

Until I read your post I didn't really think about costs.

Today I did a short (3.5 minute) video looking at RAD Server and comparing with both mORMot (with delphi client and server) and mORMot Server + Elevate Web Builder for Pascal based compiled web HTML+JavaScript applications

If you have an investment in Object Pascal code and training, this may be the way to move forward, much easier than migrating to .NET or Java, neither of which offer great web options.

https://youtu.be/__BoOxUHWoU

My 2 cents.
Erick

--
Erick Engelke
Enterprise Delphi Databases Book
Using Elevate Web Builder Book
HTML5 Builder Book
Read my Delphi blog
http://www.erickengelke.com
loki loki

Posts: 787
Registered: 7/1/02
Re: Just a thought...
Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this thread Reply
  Posted: Dec 15, 2016 10:32 PM   in response to: > Rich < in response to: > Rich <
Anyone here think Delphi should have STAYED focused on component based dev?

no i don't think so ... the last app i do (on mobile) i even remove all
the component (firemonkey)

i also developped an entire website (isapi) without any controls (off
course)
Chris Rolliston

Posts: 332
Registered: 4/6/00
Re: Just a thought...
Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this thread Reply
  Posted: Dec 17, 2016 9:09 AM   in response to: > Rich < in response to: > Rich <
> Rich < wrote:
Delphi used to be THE premier application building IDE. Then it moved to a coding instead of a component based focus. Now it's really having problems in the marketplace.

Anyone here think Delphi should have STAYED focused on component based dev? I know you can still use components but how far advanced would Delphi be now if the focus would NOT have shifted to hand coding in place of component based dev?

I'm confused at how Delphi Berlin is any less (or for that matter, any more) 'component based' than Delphi 1... Can you expand?
> Rich <

Posts: 171
Registered: 2/6/09
Re: Just a thought...
Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this thread Reply
  Posted: Jan 5, 2017 9:25 AM   in response to: Chris Rolliston in response to: Chris Rolliston
Chris Rolliston wrote:

I'm confused at how Delphi Berlin is any less (or for that matter, any more) 'component based' than Delphi 1... Can you expand?

Well Delphi used to be viewed as an IDE for putting together apps quickly via drag-n-drop. I used to stomp a mud hole in VisualStudio developer's asses with Delphi. Coders used to say "It's not for REAL coders", etc. Then for a while the focus was on the language and typing in code. Everyone was talking code code code instead of RAD. At CodeRage we were seeing more and more tracks about coding not RAD.
David Schwartz

Posts: 137
Registered: 8/28/00
Re: Just a thought...
Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this thread Reply
  Posted: Dec 19, 2016 7:33 AM   in response to: > Rich < in response to: > Rich <
> Rich < wrote:
Delphi used to be THE premier application building IDE. Then it moved to a coding instead of a component based focus. Now it's really having problems in the marketplace.

Anyone here think Delphi should have STAYED focused on component based dev? I know you can still use components but how far advanced would Delphi be now if the focus would NOT have shifted to hand coding in place of component based dev?

I'm not sure what you're referring to here.

Persoally, I'd point to two things: (1) the price is WAY too high relative to other options; and (2) Delphi has evolved by expanding its borders into areas that are of use to fewer and fewer people each release, rather than enhancing the core features that benefit everybody.

I don't care how the math works out, Visual Studio and Java dev platforms are effectively zero cost per seat in terms of their acquisition cost. (You can argue that MS tools have a price tag, but MS has so many ways to bundle them for free into other stuff that their prices are meaningless.) Embt has nothing they can offer of similar value, so the cost per seat is fixed.

As far as #2, Delphi might be the best thing since sliced bread for n-tier apps, but everywhere I've been Delphi is only used for UI stuff. Middle tier is typically Java, and back-end is MS tech. Also, the components have not really evolved. Personally, I think that the features of Raize Components / Konopka tools should replace the basic components. There's stuff still missing in the current base components that makes me wonder what the designers have in mind. You can build a REST consumer in minutes, but you can't set an Alignment property in a TEdit field because it's still not there yet!

Delphi's original approach was to provide basic compnents and let 3rd-parties supply enhancements. That's fine, except I've seen steadily increasing resistance to using 3rd-party components for projects over time. In fact, the use of 3rd-party components is perhaps the single biggest inhibitor of upgrades that I've seen, because project managers don't want to waste time manually upgrading important component libraries that have been abandoned. It's a very real measure of "risk" that Borland/Inprise/CodeGear/Embt have consistently denied exists.

As a consequence, projects will typically embrace 3rd-party components for large complex needs (like fancy grids) but not simple stuff like enhanced TEdits and labels -- things that Raize Components focused on almost exclusively.

So while I don't know what the OP's point regarding a deemphasis on component-based design might relate to, I'd say that the lack of improvement of core components over the years has only left the base configuration looking old and stale. The assumed use of 3rd-party components is at odds with practices that have evolved over the years that are based on very real perceived risks around choosing this platform, where their use is being avoided.

Embt might want to do a survey and see what kind of correlation exists between 3rd-party component use and what version of Delphi is being used for production needs. I'd bet they'd find that the more libraries a project uses, the more likely it is that the project is using an older version of Dephi, and the less likely they are to upgrade to the latest version. (Maybe they're paying for it, but are they using it?)
Dan Barclay

Posts: 889
Registered: 11/9/03
Re: Just a thought...
Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this thread Reply
  Posted: Dec 19, 2016 9:51 AM   in response to: David Schwartz in response to: David Schwartz
David Schwartz wrote:
Persoally, I'd point to two things: (1) the price is WAY too high relative to other options; and (2) Delphi has evolved by expanding its borders into areas that are of use to fewer and fewer people each release, rather than enhancing the core features that benefit everybody.

I don't care how the math works out, Visual Studio and Java dev platforms are effectively zero cost per seat in terms of their acquisition cost. (You can argue that MS tools have a price tag, but MS has so many ways to bundle them for free into other stuff that their prices are meaningless.) Embt has nothing they can offer of similar value, so the cost per seat is fixed.

Ding. Ding. Ding.

Correct answer.

The cost comparison is against other options, not against the cost of developers or anything else. That is especially true for new developers "entering the pipeline". They are going to gain their expertise with something that doesnt' cost them thousands of dollars. "Free" is a perfect solution for them, "cheap" comes in a close second, "affordable" is in play as well. "too expensive" doesn't have a chance.

If you can't get an individual in the pipeline in the first place, they're never going to come out the other end as a developer/user.

Dan
Markus Humm

Posts: 5,113
Registered: 11/9/03
Re: Just a thought...
Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this thread Reply
  Posted: Dec 19, 2016 1:38 PM   in response to: Dan Barclay in response to: Dan Barclay
Am 19.12.2016 um 18:51 schrieb Dan Barclay:
David Schwartz wrote:
Persoally, I'd point to two things: (1) the price is WAY too high relative to other options; and (2) Delphi has evolved by expanding its borders into areas that are of use to fewer and fewer people each release, rather than enhancing the core features that benefit everybody.

I don't care how the math works out, Visual Studio and Java dev platforms are effectively zero cost per seat in terms of their acquisition cost. (You can argue that MS tools have a price tag, but MS has so many ways to bundle them for free into other stuff that their prices are meaningless.) Embt has nothing they can offer of similar value, so the cost per seat is fixed.

Ding. Ding. Ding.

Correct answer.

The cost comparison is against other options, not against the cost of developers or anything else. That is especially true for new developers "entering the pipeline". They are going to gain their expertise with something that doesnt' cost them thousands of dollars. "Free" is a perfect solution for them, "cheap" comes in a close second, "affordable" is in play as well. "too expensive" doesn't have a chance.

If you can't get an individual in the pipeline in the first place, they're never going to come out the other end as a developer/user.

While I agree I have to point to the starter edition which is a vailable
for free again.

I just recently read an article that the guy developing the control
software of the worlds largest model train in Hamburg (you can visit
that one as it was built for this) just checked if the current starter
edition would be enough. He took their Delphi application (written afaik
in FMX on Win32 and in an older version), recompiled it and run it. It
just worked. So the feature set is not too shabby as it looks like as
that application afaik has quite a few visualization and drives quite a
lot of stuff like a few dozend automatic cars, lighting effects etc.

Greetings

Markus
Dan Barclay

Posts: 889
Registered: 11/9/03
Re: Just a thought...
Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this thread Reply
  Posted: Dec 19, 2016 8:27 PM   in response to: Markus Humm in response to: Markus Humm
Markus Humm wrote:
Am 19.12.2016 um 18:51 schrieb Dan Barclay:
David Schwartz wrote:
Persoally, I'd point to two things: (1) the price is WAY too high relative to other options; and (2) Delphi has evolved by expanding its borders into areas that are of use to fewer and fewer people each release, rather than enhancing the core features that benefit everybody.

I don't care how the math works out, Visual Studio and Java dev platforms are effectively zero cost per seat in terms of their acquisition cost. (You can argue that MS tools have a price tag, but MS has so many ways to bundle them for free into other stuff that their prices are meaningless.) Embt has nothing they can offer of similar value, so the cost per seat is fixed.

Ding. Ding. Ding.

Correct answer.

The cost comparison is against other options, not against the cost of developers or anything else. That is especially true for new developers "entering the pipeline". They are going to gain their expertise with something that doesnt' cost them thousands of dollars. "Free" is a perfect solution for them, "cheap" comes in a close second, "affordable" is in play as well. "too expensive" doesn't have a chance.

If you can't get an individual in the pipeline in the first place, they're never going to come out the other end as a developer/user.

While I agree I have to point to the starter edition which is a vailable
for free again.

I just recently read an article that the guy developing the control
software of the worlds largest model train in Hamburg (you can visit
that one as it was built for this) just checked if the current starter
edition would be enough. He took their Delphi application (written afaik
in FMX on Win32 and in an older version), recompiled it and run it. It
just worked. So the feature set is not too shabby as it looks like as
that application afaik has quite a few visualization and drives quite a
lot of stuff like a few dozend automatic cars, lighting effects etc.

OK, that's one. <shrug>

More seriously, the "free" seems to come and go over time and, for whatever reason, has not been accepted in the market. For nearly everyone, so far as I can tell, the product is very expensive in comparison to alternatives. Updates, as well, are expensive. I don't know if that is because of the feature set in the "free" version, or some other reason. The result, however, is fairly clear.

A number of folks have pointed out the problem for a long time. I've seen short term "swats" at the problem, but not a longer term strategy.

Dan
Markus Humm

Posts: 5,113
Registered: 11/9/03
Re: Just a thought...
Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this thread Reply
  Posted: Dec 20, 2016 9:06 AM   in response to: Dan Barclay in response to: Dan Barclay
Am 20.12.2016 um 05:27 schrieb Dan Barclay:


More seriously, the "free" seems to come and go over time and, for whatever reason, has not been accepted in the market. For nearly everyone, so far as I can tell, the product is very expensive in comparison to alternatives. Updates, as well, are expensive. I don't know if that is because of the feature set in the "free" version, or some other reason. The result, however, is fairly clear.

A number of folks have pointed out the problem for a long time. I've seen short term "swats" at the problem, but not a longer term strategy.

Dan

If you're on maintenance updates are a lot cheaper.
The biggest hurdle afaik for quite a lot people is the first time fee to
get on the maintenance bandwagon.

Greetings

Markus
Dan Barclay

Posts: 889
Registered: 11/9/03
Re: Just a thought...
Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this thread Reply
  Posted: Dec 20, 2016 11:32 AM   in response to: Markus Humm in response to: Markus Humm
Markus Humm wrote:
Am 20.12.2016 um 05:27 schrieb Dan Barclay:


More seriously, the "free" seems to come and go over time and, for whatever reason, has not been accepted in the market. For nearly everyone, so far as I can tell, the product is very expensive in comparison to alternatives. Updates, as well, are expensive. I don't know if that is because of the feature set in the "free" version, or some other reason. The result, however, is fairly clear.

A number of folks have pointed out the problem for a long time. I've seen short term "swats" at the problem, but not a longer term strategy.

Dan

If you're on maintenance updates are a lot cheaper.
The biggest hurdle afaik for quite a lot people is the first time fee to
get on the maintenance bandwagon.

That's probably right, so there are two problems for two different segments.

I was talking about the "new developers" that EMB needs to get started, get "in the pipeline" to sustain the product. ANY long term strategy has to solve that problem. If they are looking quarter to quarter, or even year to year, they will continue to overlook that.

I'm personally in the segment you describe, not the one I described.

Dan
Erick Engelke

Posts: 101
Registered: 12/5/02
Re: Just a thought...
Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this thread Reply
  Posted: Dec 21, 2016 7:04 AM   in response to: Dan Barclay in response to: Dan Barclay
Dan Barclay wrote:
Markus Humm wrote:
Am 19.12.2016 um 18:51 schrieb Dan Barclay:
David Schwartz wrote:
Persoally, I'd point to two things: (1) the price is WAY too high relative to other options; and (2) Delphi has evolved by expanding its borders into areas that are of use to fewer and fewer people each release, rather than enhancing the core features that benefit everybody.

The core always increasing by a lot, but the online documentation has not kept up since 2007, so most of us don't know what all the core can do. The help has become a royal pain, many functions are excellent but undocumented.

I don't care how the math works out, Visual Studio and Java dev platforms are effectively zero cost per seat in terms of their acquisition cost. (You can argue that MS tools have a price tag, but MS has so many ways to bundle them for free into other stuff that their prices are meaningless.) Embt has nothing they can offer of similar value, so the cost per seat is fixed.

Last time I checked, my Microsoft MSDN was not free. The bundling presumes you have bought lots, often including expensive MS-SQL server.

"Free" is a perfect solution for them, "cheap" comes in a close second, "affordable" is in play as well. "too expensive" doesn't have a chance.

If you can't get an individual in the pipeline in the first place, they're never going to come out the other end as a developer/user.

While I agree I have to point to the starter edition which is a vailable
for free again.

I would argue they should sell Starter it at a permanent price of $100, or $150 rather than temporarily free.
Low enough that interested people can try it, AND use it, but permanent so they aren't afraid to tell their friends.

I pay $100 a year for an Apple license to sign Apple iOS code, I don't know how much to GlobalSign to sign PC code, I forget how much android costs, MSDN for writing drivers, a couple hundred for Elevate Web Builder for web pascal, may $900 for Delphi Pro, something for MariaDB,

But because I made these choices I'm not paying outrageous sums for MS-SQL, Oracle DB, etc. and have flexibility in how I deploy.

Heck, Windows server costs enough with CALs, so FPC and Delphi will support Linux and drop my costs again.

Erick

--
Erick Engelke
Enterprise Delphi Databases Book
Using Elevate Web Builder Book
HTML5 Builder Book
Read my Delphi blog
http://www.erickengelke.com
> Rich <

Posts: 171
Registered: 2/6/09
Re: Just a thought...
Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this thread Reply
  Posted: Jan 5, 2017 9:28 AM   in response to: David Schwartz in response to: David Schwartz
David Schwartz wrote:

I'm not sure what you're referring to here.

"Also, the components have not really evolved. Personally, I think that the features of Raize Components / Konopka tools should replace the basic components. There's stuff still missing in the current base components that makes me wonder what the designers have in mind. You can build a REST consumer in minutes, but you can't set an Alignment property in a TEdit field because it's still not there yet! "
Brian Hamilton ...

Posts: 556
Registered: 10/14/04
Re: Just a thought...
Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this thread Reply
  Posted: Jan 6, 2017 1:02 PM   in response to: > Rich < in response to: > Rich <
> Rich < wrote:
David Schwartz wrote:

I'm not sure what you're referring to here.

"Also, the components have not really evolved. Personally, I think that the features of Raize Components / Konopka tools should replace the basic components. There's stuff still missing in the current base components that makes me wonder what the designers have in mind. You can build a REST consumer in minutes, but you can't set an Alignment property in a TEdit field because it's still not there yet! "
but tedit has alignment setting in the properties
Christophe LACH

Posts: 37
Registered: 12/2/01
Re: Just a thought...
Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this thread Reply
  Posted: Feb 2, 2017 6:21 AM   in response to: > Rich < in response to: > Rich <
> Rich < wrote:
Delphi used to be THE premier application building IDE. Then it moved to a coding instead of a component based focus. Now it's really having problems in the marketplace.

Anyone here think Delphi should have STAYED focused on component based dev? I know you can still use components but how far advanced would Delphi be now if the focus would NOT have shifted to hand coding in place of component based dev?

Hi Rich,

I partially agree with you. The reason why it happened is because the VCL was ingeneered as a windows API WRAPPER. While the VCL is fantactic and great, considering it as a WRAPPER was the initial mistake that prevented evolution. Because once the warpper matches the underlying API job is done ... end of the show.

And the frustrating feeling that you have (and that all customers have) is because Delphi customers never considered the VCL as a wrapper but instead as an ABSTRACTION LAYER .. and the big difference between an ABSTRACTION LAYER and a WRAPPER is that the abstraction layer definition is not finite; it will EVOLVE with available underlying architectures and bridge them to a common architecture.

As an exemple, if the VCL was an abstraction layer then the Embarcadero ingeneers would have (ten years ago) replaced the windows API calls by REST calls to a web frontend.

And thats why today you have to code yourself for REST etc ... They won't do it for you, because their vision is limited, so you get limited too.

Sad thing is that web frontend SPA (Single Page Application) purpose is to exactly behave as a native desktop application from inside a browser. But we VCL users won't have access to it because VCL is considered as a WRAPPER.

And like the jump from coding with Turbo pascal 7 (only with windows manual APi calls) to Delphi 1 (with 0 API calls) was a revolution with a VCL WRAPPER, jumping from Delphi XE VCL WRAPPER to Delphi VCL ABSTRACTION LAYER could be the second jump that leaps DELPHI forward again ... But I doubt they see the opportunity. because they are @$!'"{ ingeneers focused on API's and trying to mimic what other languages currently do; without creativity and without a vision of what a visual VCL component based ABSTRACTION LAYER could be. It's not because they can't, it's because they don't see, they have no vision, they need a genius with ideas to lead them like the guy who designed the VCL in 1995 starting with TP7 .

The hope (because I want to finish with hope) is that web frontends like Angular or Polymer offers them 50% of the job allready done ! Will they realize the opportunity and see how the VCL could benefit from it ? Ok it's a huge job ... but the guys that transformed TP7 to Delphi 1 did such a big job before; time to do it again ?
Matthew Jones

Posts: 337
Registered: 1/25/98
Re: Just a thought... [Edit]
Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this thread Reply
  Posted: Feb 2, 2017 7:38 AM   in response to: Christophe LACH in response to: Christophe LACH
Christophe LACH wrote:

The reason why it happened is ...

Hmm, not sure I agree with your reasoning there. As with a lot of things, hindsight is marvellous, but back when VB was the king, Delphi was a really good solution. Being too abstract would just add overhead, and that would make it slow like VB. Delphi was exactly the right mix for the time.

As for SPA and Delphi, here in today, any Delphi developer would do well to look at Elevate WebBuilder. It can access your Delphi (or other) back-end service, and you programme it just like Delphi. I have been amazed at the power and complexity of the code that I can do, just like in Delphi. Like having a List which you can give a class type to, so it can create new members of the right type. And then serialise themselves appropriately, and all sorts. And I know the JavaScript is going to be top quality. Anyway, it is an option for those looking to expand their capabilities while staying with Delphi.
Christophe LACH

Posts: 37
Registered: 12/2/01
Re: Just a thought... [Edit]
Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this thread Reply
  Posted: Feb 2, 2017 8:05 AM   in response to: Matthew Jones in response to: Matthew Jones
Matthew Jones wrote:
Being too abstract would just add overhead

Not necessarily, the same VCL components could just have another implementation in web mode. This code would not be called or compiled in desktop mode so there would be no slowdown or overhead.

As with a lot of things, hindsight is marvellous, but back when VB was the king, Delphi was a really good solution. Delphi was exactly the right mix for the time.
I agree, that's exactly the question of the thread. It was great in 1998 ... but should it not evolve in 2017 ? Rich wanted to know why it did not evolve, the answer is it was designed to be a wrapper. A smart wrapper, great by the time, but in 1998 nobody could imagine internet, web browsers and web frontends, so it's not their fault they were still genius by the time. If you take the same guys who did the vcl in 1998 and tell them to do it again today, I'm 100% sure they would find a new genius way to do it in a way compatible with today's possiblities, they would certainly not rewrite the same VCL as it was designed in 1998.

As for SPA and Delphi, here in today, any Delphi developer would do well to look at Elevate WebBuilder. It can access your Delphi (or other) back-end service, and you programme it just like Delphi. I have been amazed at the power and complexity of the code that I can do, just like in Delphi. Like having a List which you can give a class type to, so it can create new members of the right type. And then serialise themselves appropriately, and all sorts. And I know the JavaScript is going to be top quality. Anyway, it is an option for those looking to expand their capabilities while staying with Delphi.
It's good to have smart third party RAD alternatives, but Delphi should provide his own RAD solution for the main cases because only CORE included features will attract newcomers. Noboby buys a new programming language by starting to make a list of required addons to do the job. Third party tools are extensions or alternatives, but Delphi should be able to do the job in the first place for better advertising.
Legend
Helpful Answer (5 pts)
Correct Answer (10 pts)

Server Response from: ETNAJIVE02