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Thread: Price increase?



Permlink Replies: 196 - Last Post: Jun 6, 2016 12:33 AM Last Post By: Michael Thuma
Jan Martin Pett...

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Registered: 12/8/02
Price increase?
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  Posted: May 1, 2016 1:41 AM
In April the introductory 10% off resulted in an upgrade price of EUR 1821.xx (full upgrade price was barely over 2K) for RAD Studio 10.1 Berlin Professional.
The May introductory price (same offer, same product) is EUR 2227, and the full upgrade price is EUR 2530 (iow, 2530-2000= +500 since april).

It seems like they sure do know how to increase their prices, even mid-offer.
Yes, I know Berlin includes 1 year SA (just like it did in April).

Just for fun, compare the new prices with XE (EUR 699), XE3 (EUR 799), XE6 (EUR 1129).
XE7 and earlier didn't require SA to get the updates/bugfixes for it, so that change was yet another price increase.

Where is the EUR1000-1400 worth of changes in RAD Studio 10.1 Berlin Professional since XE6?
(I don't do mobile nor other platforms, just windows 32/64).

Edited by: Jan Martin Pettersen on May 1, 2016 10:22 AM
Markus Ja

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Re: Price increase?
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  Posted: May 1, 2016 3:47 AM   in response to: Jan Martin Pett... in response to: Jan Martin Pett...
Where is the EUR1000-1400 worth of changes in RAD Studio 10.1 Berlin Professional since XE6?
(I don't do mobile nor other platforms, just windows 32/64).

I'm asking the same question myself. I am still on DXE, and the new version 10.1 is pretty expensive. I also just need Win32/64. Currently, for my next server project I'm going to give Lazarus a chance.
Lazarus + ZeosDB + mORMot looks promising.

It's also good to see that TMSSoftware brings some fundamental controls to Lazarus (http://www.tmssoftware.com/site/products.asp?t=fnc)

Also other important VCL component vendors offer a lazarus version:
* FastReport (Reports)
* DevArt (DB Access)
* RemObjects (n-Tier Framework)
* TMSSoftware (Chart, Grid, Planner, ...)
Jan Martin Pett...

Posts: 88
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Re: Price increase?
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  Posted: May 1, 2016 4:02 AM   in response to: Markus Ja in response to: Markus Ja
Markus Ja wrote:
Where is the EUR1000-1400 worth of changes in RAD Studio 10.1 Berlin Professional since XE6?
(I don't do mobile nor other platforms, just windows 32/64).

I'm asking the same question myself. I am still on DXE, and the new version 10.1 is pretty expensive. I also just need Win32/64. Currently, for my next server project I'm going to give Lazarus a chance.
Lazarus + ZeosDB + mORMot looks promising.

It's also good to see that TMSSoftware brings some fundamental controls to Lazarus (http://www.tmssoftware.com/site/products.asp?t=fnc)

Also other important VCL component vendors offer a lazarus version:
* FastReport (Reports)
* DevArt (DB Access)
* RemObjects (n-Tier Framework)
* TMSSoftware (Chart, Grid, Planner, ...)

Ouch, if you haven't upgraded since XE then you're even worse off.
With new user 10% off that is EUR 3286,12 (after the introductory offer it is EUR 3651.25, unless they increase it yet again).

That may be one way to go..
I've even considered MSVS Pro new user..which apparently is ~half the price of a RAD Studio Pro upgrade.
I seem to remember MSVS Pro was more expensive than a RAD Studio Pro upgrade a few years ago

Edited by: Jan Martin Pettersen on May 1, 2016 12:03 PM
Uffe Kousgaard

Posts: 218
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Re: Price increase? [Edit]
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  Posted: May 1, 2016 10:36 AM   in response to: Jan Martin Pett... in response to: Jan Martin Pett...
Jan Martin Pettersen wrote:

In April the introductory 10% off resulted in an upgrade price of EUR
1821.xx (full upgrade price was barely over 2K) for RAD Studio 10.1
Berlin Professional. The May introductory price (same offer, same
product) is EUR 2227, and the full upgrade price is EUR 2530 (iow,
2530-2000= +500 since april).

A new user for Delphi 10.1 Pro is EUR 1818.
An upgrade from XE6+ is EUR 1185.

Just checked it now.
Jan Martin Pett...

Posts: 88
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Re: Price increase? [Edit]
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  Posted: May 1, 2016 11:01 AM   in response to: Uffe Kousgaard in response to: Uffe Kousgaard
Uffe Kousgaard wrote:
Jan Martin Pettersen wrote:

In April the introductory 10% off resulted in an upgrade price of EUR
1821.xx (full upgrade price was barely over 2K) for RAD Studio 10.1
Berlin Professional. The May introductory price (same offer, same
product) is EUR 2227, and the full upgrade price is EUR 2530 (iow,
2530-2000= +500 since april).

A new user for Delphi 10.1 Pro is EUR 1818.
An upgrade from XE6+ is EUR 1185.

Just checked it now.
Maybe you should've read the post first:
upgrade price, RAD Studio 10.1 Berlin Professional

All prices I mentioned were upgrades for RAD Studio Professional.
None were Delphi Pro alone.

Btw, RAD Studio 2010 Professional upgrade price was EUR 649.
(SA was a "fraction" of the upgrade cost back then too, 200-250 or thereabout, but it wasn't needed for bugfixes etc..until XE8+)

If you thought it was prices for Delphi Pro because of the "low" prices, then you need to remember that the price for
RAD Studio have almost quadrupled between RAD Studio 2010 Pro and today.

RAD Studio 10.1 Berlin Pro was EUR 1821.xx (with the introductory 10% off) from the release of Berlin until a day or two ago.

Edited by: Jan Martin Pettersen on May 1, 2016 9:03 PM

Edited by: Jan Martin Pettersen on May 1, 2016 9:18 PM
Uffe Kousgaard

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  Posted: May 1, 2016 10:49 PM   in response to: Jan Martin Pett... in response to: Jan Martin Pett...
Jan Martin Pettersen wrote:

Maybe you should've read the post first:
upgrade price, RAD Studio 10.1 Berlin Professional

Sorry, I focused on the Pro part.

But yes, it has become a lot more expensive over the years. Especially
if you don't need all the new features.

Just checked the old accounting:
I paid €225 for Delphi 1 in 1995 and the same amount for D2 in 1996.
Next one is D5 Pro for €350 in 1999.

The good thing is the computer has become a lot cheaper. The one I
bought in 1995 was €2300, one quarter of that is sufficient today.
Jan Martin Pett...

Posts: 88
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Re: Price increase? [Edit] [Edit]
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  Posted: May 2, 2016 3:01 AM   in response to: Uffe Kousgaard in response to: Uffe Kousgaard
Uffe Kousgaard wrote:
Jan Martin Pettersen wrote:

Maybe you should've read the post first:
upgrade price, RAD Studio 10.1 Berlin Professional

Sorry, I focused on the Pro part.

But yes, it has become a lot more expensive over the years. Especially
if you don't need all the new features.

Just checked the old accounting:
I paid €225 for Delphi 1 in 1995 and the same amount for D2 in 1996.
Next one is D5 Pro for €350 in 1999.

The good thing is the computer has become a lot cheaper. The one I
bought in 1995 was €2300, one quarter of that is sufficient today.
Yes it has.. Nowadays it seems they increase the price 2-3 times a year (maybe more),
20% or thereabout each time (the change between April and May was 20%).

It seems like I won't be on this bandwagon for much longer as it is far
too expensive.. Next year the upgrade price will probably be close
to, or even above, todays new user price.

The prices of computers has been almost static in much of the last
decade, but yes, earlier on it certainly wasn't cheap to buy them.
Luigi Sandon

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Re: Price increase? [Edit] [Edit]
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  Posted: May 2, 2016 4:55 AM   in response to: Uffe Kousgaard in response to: Uffe Kousgaard
Just checked the old accounting:
I paid €225 for Delphi 1 in 1995 and the same amount for D2 in 1996.

Prices should be corrected for inflation, but still today prices are high. It is true a lot of stuff was added, but if you have no use for OSX and mobile compilers and frameworks, you end up to pay a lot for things you don't use.

Probably Embarcadero has too few users to allow for buying only what you need - it needs to make everybody pay the full expense of developing the whole product.

Maybe it should follow the Adobe CC suite, where the most used applications (Lightroom and Photoshop) come together as the cheapest option, than you can get the whole suite for more. Adobe understood if had tried to shove the whole suite down user throats, even Lightroom and Photoshop would have been at risk - and even the whole suite cost less per year (€731) than the Pro version of Delphi alone... but it has far more paying users than Delphi or RAD studio.

Let's see how a free Xamarin will also impact Delphi sales and thereby its prices.
Jan Martin Pett...

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Re: Price increase? [Edit] [Edit]
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  Posted: May 2, 2016 6:22 AM   in response to: Luigi Sandon in response to: Luigi Sandon
Luigi Sandon wrote:
Just checked the old accounting:
I paid €225 for Delphi 1 in 1995 and the same amount for D2 in 1996.

Prices should be corrected for inflation, but still today prices are high. It is true a lot of stuff was added, but if you have no use for OSX and mobile compilers and frameworks, you end up to pay a lot for things you don't use.

Probably Embarcadero has too few users to allow for buying only what you need - it needs to make everybody pay the full expense of developing the whole product.

Maybe it should follow the Adobe CC suite, where the most used applications (Lightroom and Photoshop) come together as the cheapest option, than you can get the whole suite for more. Adobe understood if had tried to shove the whole suite down user throats, even Lightroom and Photoshop would have been at risk - and even the whole suite cost less per year (€731) than the Pro version of Delphi alone... but it has far more paying users than Delphi or RAD studio.

Let's see how a free Xamarin will also impact Delphi sales and thereby its prices.
20% increase in price upto several times a year is alot more than inflation, no matter how you do calculate it.

There's also been some indirect price increases to in the later years:
First the "last 3 versions" rule, then requiring SA for bugfixes which were free until then, then SA
built into the price, and so on.

I wonder how the price will look after another four of these 20% increases..which will be in about 2 years
at this rate.

Btw, going by US inflation rates, USD 258.24 (EUR 225) in 1995 equals $403.51 (EUR 351.63) in 2016.

Edited by: Jan Martin Pettersen on May 2, 2016 2:26 PM
Luigi Sandon

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  Posted: May 3, 2016 5:51 AM   in response to: Jan Martin Pett... in response to: Jan Martin Pett...
20% increase in price upto several times a year is alot more than inflation, no matter how you do calculate it.

I never said that RAD/Delphi is cheap :) And beside being expensive I always pointed out that what really matters is the price/features ratio, and price/quality ratios, both of which are even less favorable than price alone. Adding new ill-designed features, and with an inadequate implementation (to fill a feature matrix), does not help in justifying such prices. And being force to buy expensive features you have no need for doesn't help either. Anyway, the AppMethod product (or whatever was called) has been a fiasco, hinting that the strong core of customers is not in those features.

Emb is trying to milk customers as much as it can. A fact that IMHO tells it's not expanding the paying customer base, despite what PR says. The new owner looks to have not changed approach. Probably because while dev teams members left or have been "let go", the "management" team looks to be there well glued to the chairs. Probably because unlike devs they have little chances to find another job.

There's also been some indirect price increases to in the later years:
First the "last 3 versions" rule, then requiring SA for bugfixes which were free until then, then SA
built into the price, and so on.

And even some that didn't work, like trying to forbid DB development with the Pro version.

The net result is they made RAD/Delphi extremely expensive, especially if it is not your main development tool. Today we mostly use it to develop Windows GUI applications only (we have reasons to prefer a native solution to a managed one, but for other uses the missing pieces became too many), but at these prices and conditions it's hard to justify the expense just for a specific task - especially when I have also to buy several 3rd party libraries to add the missing pieces, or develop them myself.
Jan Martin Pett...

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Re: Price increase? [Edit] [Edit]
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  Posted: May 3, 2016 7:14 AM   in response to: Luigi Sandon in response to: Luigi Sandon
Luigi Sandon wrote:
Emb is trying to milk customers as much as it can. A fact that IMHO tells it's not expanding the paying customer base, despite what PR says. The new owner looks to have not changed approach. Probably because while dev teams members left or have been "let go", the "management" team looks to be there well glued to the chairs. Probably because unlike devs they have little chances to find another job.

There's also been some indirect price increases to in the later years:
First the "last 3 versions" rule, then requiring SA for bugfixes which were free until then, then SA
built into the price, and so on.

And even some that didn't work, like trying to forbid DB development with the Pro version.

The net result is they made RAD/Delphi extremely expensive, especially if it is not your main development tool. Today we mostly use it to develop Windows GUI applications only (we have reasons to prefer a native solution to a managed one, but for other uses the missing pieces became too many), but at these prices and conditions it's hard to justify the expense just for a specific task - especially when I have also to buy several 3rd party libraries to add the missing pieces, or develop them myself.

Btw, I forgot one indirect price increase (for europeans): the fake 1:1 conversion rate between USD and EUR they
introduced around 2009-2010.

Going by their efforts in the later 6 or so years to price themselves out of the market, I would guess
the new customer base is shrinking..alot. They're probably fully dependent on those that already
were on subscription before they integrated it into the price..because getting new ones with prices
several times higher than other products is a bit unlikely. Especially everything non-Delphi.

Thankfully the usual 3rd party libraries still have a better approach to pricing than Emb/Idera.

Edited by: Jan Martin Pettersen on May 3, 2016 3:18 PM
Markus Humm

Posts: 5,113
Registered: 11/9/03
Re: Price increase? [Edit] [Edit] [Edit]
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  Posted: May 3, 2016 12:09 PM   in response to: Luigi Sandon in response to: Luigi Sandon
Am 03.05.2016 um 14:52 schrieb Luigi Sandon:

And even some that didn't work, like trying to forbid DB development with the Pro version.

You're exaggerating here. Local DB development was always allowed.

Greetings

Markus
Jan Martin Pett...

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Re: Price increase? [Edit] [Edit] [Edit]
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  Posted: May 3, 2016 1:01 PM   in response to: Markus Humm in response to: Markus Humm
Markus Humm wrote:
Am 03.05.2016 um 14:52 schrieb Luigi Sandon:

And even some that didn't work, like trying to forbid DB development with the Pro version.

You're exaggerating here. Local DB development was always allowed.

Greetings

Markus
Yes, local were allowed..and only local, regardless of 3rd party or not.
The attempt was made with XE3 onwards through the license terms.
They apparently reverted the change after some outcry about it.

Some discussion/reports about it:
http://www.deltics.co.nz/blog/posts/1097
http://www.itwriting.com/blog/6431-delphi-xe3-professional-downgraded-to-local-databases-only.html
http://blog.synopse.info/post/2012/08/28/%22Trop-c-est-trop%22-No-Client-Server-for-XE3-PRO-users

Edited by: Jan Martin Pettersen on May 3, 2016 9:01 PM
Luigi Sandon

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  Posted: May 4, 2016 3:42 AM   in response to: Markus Humm in response to: Markus Humm
You're exaggerating here. Local DB development was always allowed.

"Local" DB access only, in the XXI century, in a development tool at that price? dBase times are quite over. And why that sudden attempt to change a license that dated back to Delphi 1, when systems were far less connected than now and you had no VMs running on your "local" system? If it wasn't a tragic symptom of bad revenues and management losing touch with reality, it would have been just ridiculous. Just like the other attempted change to deny user being able to use Delphi abroad for more than thirty days...

But it looks like abusive relationship victims, many Delphi customers always attempt to minimize, justify, deny... <G>

I hoped Idera would have wiped management and tried a different approach, but it looks it won't happen, they got the DB tools (and customers) they wanted, and will let the dev tools business to be run as before, without putting the Idera name on it...
Markus Humm

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Registered: 11/9/03
Re: Price increase? [Edit] [Edit] [Edit]
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  Posted: May 4, 2016 8:55 AM   in response to: Luigi Sandon in response to: Luigi Sandon
Am 04.05.2016 um 12:42 schrieb Luigi Sandon:
You're exaggerating here. Local DB development was always allowed.

"Local" DB access only, in the XXI century, in a development tool at that price? dBase times are quite over. And why that sudden attempt to change a license that dated back to Delphi 1, when systems were far less connected than now and you had no VMs running on your "local" system? If it wasn't a tragic symptom of bad revenues and management losing touch with reality, it would have been just ridiculous. Just like the other attempted change to deny user being able to use Delphi abroad for more than thirty
days...

But it looks like abusive relationship victims, many Delphi customers always attempt to minimize, justify, deny... <G>

No. But overstating or writing things which are not 100% true won't help
us. Yes, local DB access only is in > 50% of the cases where a DB is
needed not an option today. But claiming that no DB access was allowed
was simply wrong.

Greetings

Markus
Luigi Sandon

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Re: Price increase? [Edit] [Edit] [Edit]
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  Posted: May 5, 2016 7:06 AM   in response to: Markus Humm in response to: Markus Humm
No. But overstating or writing things which are not 100% true won't help

Try to justify that other developers not using Delphi and they will laugh at you heartily.

As I said, abused people need to minimize, justify, deny....

Delphi developers really deserve to pay more for less.
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: Price increase? [Edit] [Edit] [Edit]
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  Posted: May 5, 2016 7:40 AM   in response to: Luigi Sandon in response to: Luigi Sandon
Luigi Sandon wrote:

No. But overstating or writing things which are not 100% true won't
help

Try to justify that other developers not using Delphi and they will
laugh at you heartily.

Yes, because they very likely have a similar relationship with their
favourite product, and not because there is anything wrong with Delphi.

Fact is that hyperbole like yours never serves anyone well, except if
you think boosts your self esteem. <g>
--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"When a man says he approves of something in principle, it
means he hasn't the slightest intention of carrying it out in
practice."
-- Otto von Bismarck
Markus Humm

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Re: Price increase? [Edit] [Edit] [Edit]
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  Posted: May 8, 2016 8:25 AM   in response to: Luigi Sandon in response to: Luigi Sandon
Am 05.05.2016 um 16:06 schrieb Luigi Sandon:
No. But overstating or writing things which are not 100% true won't help

Try to justify that other developers not using Delphi and they will laugh at you heartily.

As I said, abused people need to minimize, justify, deny....

No.People need to present correct facts in a discussion, otherwise the
discussion is wasted time.

I like to discuss things with you, but only if you prsent the facts
correctly. You are well able to do so. The way do wrote it didn't imply
to me that it was meant to exaggerate.

Greetings

Markus
Mike Margerum

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  Posted: May 2, 2016 6:45 AM   in response to: Luigi Sandon in response to: Luigi Sandon
On 5/2/16 7:55 AM, Luigi Sandon wrote:
Just checked the old accounting:
I paid €225 for Delphi 1 in 1995 and the same amount for D2 in 1996.

Prices should be corrected for inflation, but still today prices are high. It is true a lot of stuff was added, but if you have no use for OSX and mobile compilers and frameworks, you end up to pay a lot for things you don't use.

Most of their effort has gone to mobile in the last 2 years and so they
shouldn't tax pro users for it since they cannot use it.
Jan Martin Pett...

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  Posted: May 2, 2016 6:57 AM   in response to: Mike Margerum in response to: Mike Margerum
Mike Margerum wrote:
On 5/2/16 7:55 AM, Luigi Sandon wrote:
Just checked the old accounting:
I paid €225 for Delphi 1 in 1995 and the same amount for D2 in 1996.

Prices should be corrected for inflation, but still today prices are high. It is true a lot of stuff was added, but if you have no use for OSX and mobile compilers and frameworks, you end up to pay a lot for things you don't use.

Most of their effort has gone to mobile in the last 2 years and so they
shouldn't tax pro users for it since they cannot use it.
More like just about everything after XE2.
Dominique Willems

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  Posted: May 2, 2016 6:52 AM   in response to: Luigi Sandon in response to: Luigi Sandon
Luigi Sandon wrote:

Just checked the old accounting:
I paid €225 for Delphi 1 in 1995 and the same amount for D2 in 1996.

Prices should be corrected for inflation

Here you are:

€225 in 1995 is
€327 in 2016.
Steve Jordi

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  Posted: May 2, 2016 8:51 AM   in response to: Jan Martin Pett... in response to: Jan Martin Pett...
<style type="text/css">

p.p1 {margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; line-height: 15.0px; font: 12.0px Helvetica}
p.p2 {margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; line-height: 15.0px; font: 12.0px Helvetica; min-height: 14.0px}
p.p3 {margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font: 12.0px Helvetica; color: #929292}

</style>

Well,


They seem to increase 4% per year and the IDERA acquisition is probably not good news.

Why you say IDERA around, the answer you get is "Oh boy, those are expensive, that's what they are famous for"...


My subscription upgrade just arrive from Embarcadero for Rad Studio Prof.. it's now $607 and I started at $530 a few years ago. Still manageable but for small structure, the pressure increases and may push those "small" customers out of the Embarcadero network


--  

Steve JORDI - MSc in Geophysics/Volcanology 

Geneva, Switzerland / Portland, OR, USA 


Jan Martin Pett...

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  Posted: May 2, 2016 1:21 PM   in response to: Steve Jordi in response to: Steve Jordi
Steve Jordi wrote:
Well,
They seem to increase 4% per year and the IDERA acquisition is probably not good news.
Why you say IDERA around, the answer you get is "Oh boy, those are expensive, that's what they are famous for"...

My subscription upgrade just arrive from Embarcadero for Rad Studio Prof.. it's now $607 and I started at $530 a few years ago. Still manageable but for small structure, the pressure >increases and may push those "small" customers out of the Embarcadero network

--

Steve JORDI - MSc in Geophysics/Volcanology

Geneva, Switzerland / Portland, OR, USA

Maybe you should try to run the right numbers.
The undiscounted upgrade price of RAD Studio Pro went from EUR 2024 to EUR 2530 within the last few days.

Edited by: Jan Martin Pettersen on May 2, 2016 9:26 PM
Steve Jordi

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  Posted: May 3, 2016 5:10 AM   in response to: Jan Martin Pett... in response to: Jan Martin Pett...
Maybe you should try to run the right numbers.
The undiscounted upgrade price of RAD Studio Pro went from EUR 2024 to EUR 2530 within the last few days.

Yes, I'm talking about the subscription plan, one year for $607
including 3 incidents, and all hotfixes, new versions, etc.
And I have FireDac and Mobile Add-Ons.

--
Steve JORDI - MSc in Geophysics/Volcanology
Geneva, Switzerland / Portland, OR, USA

Jan Martin Pett...

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  Posted: May 3, 2016 6:47 AM   in response to: Steve Jordi in response to: Steve Jordi
Steve Jordi wrote:
Maybe you should try to run the right numbers.
The undiscounted upgrade price of RAD Studio Pro went from EUR 2024 to EUR 2530 within the last few days.

Yes, I'm talking about the subscription plan, one year for $607
including 3 incidents, and all hotfixes, new versions, etc.
And I have FireDac and Mobile Add-Ons.

--
Steve JORDI - MSc in Geophysics/Volcanology
Geneva, Switzerland / Portland, OR, USA

So if you want to upgrade a user that aren't already on the subscription plan you'll only pay $607?

Btw, I noticed one thing when I checked the US prices to see if one of them actually were $607.
They're far cheaper. I didn't find the $607.

Emb apparently was't satisfied with 1:1 fake conversions they did between USD and EUR (since RAD Studio 2010)
anymore, so they've hiked the prices for europeans even more.

EUR prices: http://i.imgur.com/FNZemUZ.jpg
USD prices: http://imgur.com/HmSbyzb

The undiscounted upgrade price for Professional in the US is $1760, while in europe it is EUR 2530 (iow, USD 2913).

Edited by: Jan Martin Pettersen on May 3, 2016 3:35 PM

Edited by: Jan Martin Pettersen on May 3, 2016 5:23 PM
Mark Jacobs


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  Posted: May 5, 2016 7:45 AM   in response to: Jan Martin Pett... in response to: Jan Martin Pett...
Jan Martin Pettersen wrote:
EUR prices: http://i.imgur.com/FNZemUZ.jpg
USD prices: http://imgur.com/HmSbyzb
The undiscounted upgrade price for Professional in the US is $1760, while in europe it is EUR 2530 (iow, USD 2913).

Unbelievable! Why does Europe pay nearly twice what the Yanks pay, for the same product?
--
Mark Jacobs
http://www.critical.co.uk
Jan Martin Pett...

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  Posted: May 5, 2016 2:31 PM   in response to: Mark Jacobs in response to: Mark Jacobs
Mark Jacobs wrote:
Jan Martin Pettersen wrote:
EUR prices: http://i.imgur.com/FNZemUZ.jpg
USD prices: http://imgur.com/HmSbyzb
The undiscounted upgrade price for Professional in the US is $1760, while in europe it is EUR 2530 (iow, USD 2913).

Unbelievable! Why does Europe pay nearly twice what the Yanks pay, for the same product?
--
Mark Jacobs
http://www.critical.co.uk
I don't know, but I sure would like to..
$1760 (EUR 1543) is still quite alot for a RAD Pro upgrade, but its barely bearable considering SA is included.

(I use xe.com to convert between currencies, in case someone was wondering)

Edited by: Jan Martin Pettersen on May 5, 2016 11:10 PM
Christopher Burke

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  Posted: May 5, 2016 9:28 PM   in response to: Mark Jacobs in response to: Mark Jacobs
Mark Jacobs wrote:

Unbelievable! Why does Europe pay nearly twice what the Yanks pay,
for the same product?

Increased costs I guess ... that's about the only thing I can think of.
Jan Martin Pett...

Posts: 88
Registered: 12/8/02
Re: Price increase? [Edit] [Edit]
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  Posted: May 6, 2016 2:04 AM   in response to: Christopher Burke in response to: Christopher Burke
Christopher Burke wrote:
Mark Jacobs wrote:

Unbelievable! Why does Europe pay nearly twice what the Yanks pay,
for the same product?

Increased costs I guess ... that's about the only thing I can think of.
For what?
It is funny that your "only thing" is the most generic there is.
Christopher Burke

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  Posted: May 6, 2016 6:55 AM   in response to: Jan Martin Pett... in response to: Jan Martin Pett...
Jan Martin Pettersen wrote:

For what?

US - English Support
EU - English, French, German, Croatian, Swedish, Swiss.... etc etc etc
etc support.
Jan Martin Pett...

Posts: 88
Registered: 12/8/02
Re: Price increase? [Edit] [Edit]
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  Posted: May 6, 2016 7:40 AM   in response to: Christopher Burke in response to: Christopher Burke
Christopher Burke wrote:
Jan Martin Pettersen wrote:

For what?

US - English Support
EU - English, French, German, Croatian, Swedish, Swiss.... etc etc etc
etc support.
No way.

Its been English, French, German and Japanese for a decade (or at least, close to it), so..
The product doesn't have any of the other languages you mentioned..except for maybe the installer itself.
Here's the ISO download I got the above language list from: http://cc.embarcadero.com/Item/30514
..which is identical to XE's (and I guess, all the others) list of languages.
Edit: Actually, it has been those languages since at least Delphi 7.

Btw, parts of Canada use french too.
Many countries, mine included, is just fine with english..so we won't benefit from any of the other languages.

Edited by: Jan Martin Pettersen on May 6, 2016 3:51 PM
Christopher Burke

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Re: Price increase? [Edit] [Edit] [Edit]
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  Posted: May 6, 2016 8:03 AM   in response to: Jan Martin Pett... in response to: Jan Martin Pett...
Jan Martin Pettersen wrote:

Its been English, French, German and Japanese for a decade (or at
least, close to it), so.. The product doesn't have any of the other
languages you mentioned.

Talking about support for the product, not the product itself.
Jan Martin Pett...

Posts: 88
Registered: 12/8/02
Re: Price increase? [Edit] [Edit] [Edit]
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  Posted: May 6, 2016 8:33 AM   in response to: Christopher Burke in response to: Christopher Burke
Christopher Burke wrote:
Jan Martin Pettersen wrote:

Its been English, French, German and Japanese for a decade (or at
least, close to it), so.. The product doesn't have any of the other
languages you mentioned.

Talking about support for the product, not the product itself.
If that were the case, then we would've paid more for support than for the product itself.
There's a 60+% price difference after all.
Not to mention, support was until recently part of the SA, not the product..which
would mean that if that were the case, then the SA would've been priced alot higher
than the product itself.

There's three helplines for NA, Brazil, and other americas (different languages I presume).
There's 5 for europe: english only
And 3 for APAC.

http://support.embarcadero.com/contact

Edited by: Jan Martin Pettersen on May 6, 2016 4:41 PM
Christopher Burke

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Re: Price increase? [Edit] [Edit] [Edit] [Edit]
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  Posted: May 6, 2016 10:12 AM   in response to: Jan Martin Pett... in response to: Jan Martin Pett...
Jan Martin Pettersen wrote:

product..which would mean that if that were the case, then the SA
would've been priced alot higher than the product itself.

SA is a known, advance payment - vs upgrades which are sporadic.

It is the same reason you pay less for data allowances, than you do for
ad hoc data.

Anyway - the support side of the equation is the ONLY difference I
could see between EU and US/AU.

I mean in AU we are paying way less than EU as well.

EU : EUR 1818 (AU$2823.30 ex GST)
EU : EUR 1185 (AU$1840.27 ex GST)

AU : Normally AU$2,312.20 Discounted AU$2,080.10 Inc GST
AU : Normally AU$1,505.90 Discounted AU$1,355.20 Inc GST

BTW - I'm not saying the support situation IS the reason, I'm just
offering it as the only viable reason I can think of.

david hoke

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Re: Price increase? [Edit] [Edit] [Edit] [Edit]
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  Posted: May 6, 2016 10:25 AM   in response to: Christopher Burke in response to: Christopher Burke
Christopher Burke wrote:

BTW - I'm not saying the support situation IS the reason, I'm just
offering it as the only viable reason I can think of.

I'm thinking, vaguely, that somebody, maybe Nick H., said the reason
for some vendors to charge what they do, is simply because they
think/find that the 'market' involved will bear that particular cost.

Seems like another possible reason.
Jan Martin Pett...

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Re: Price increase? [Edit] [Edit] [Edit] [Edit]
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  Posted: May 6, 2016 10:47 AM   in response to: david hoke in response to: david hoke
david hoke wrote:
Christopher Burke wrote:

BTW - I'm not saying the support situation IS the reason, I'm just
offering it as the only viable reason I can think of.

I'm thinking, vaguely, that somebody, maybe Nick H., said the reason
for some vendors to charge what they do, is simply because they
think/find that the 'market' involved will bear that particular cost.

Seems like another possible reason.
Somehow I don't believe that to be true after the additional EUR 500 they
added to the price between april and may..after they also changed the
price in March (and most likely increased a bit extra at that point too).

Btw, Architect:
Price in US: USD 6326 (EUR 5547.45)
Price in Europe: EUR 9093.75 (USD 10369.94)
New user price difference of EUR 3546.30 (USD 4043.94)

You'd probably get a somewhat decent (used) car for that difference.

(Prices are from a day or two ago).
Christopher Burke

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Re: Price increase? [Edit] [Edit] [Edit] [Edit]
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  Posted: May 6, 2016 12:45 PM   in response to: Jan Martin Pett... in response to: Jan Martin Pett...
Jan Martin Pettersen wrote:

Btw, Architect:
Price in US: USD 6326 (EUR 5547.45)
Price in Europe: EUR 9093.75 (USD 10369.94)
New user price difference of EUR 3546.30 (USD 4043.94)

For reference:

Price in AU : Full $6810.19, Discount : $6128.93
(Full : AU$9247.70 Normal : AU$8322.60 Inc GST)

Mike Margerum

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Re: Price increase? [Edit] [Edit] [Edit] [Edit]
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  Posted: May 6, 2016 2:21 PM   in response to: Jan Martin Pett... in response to: Jan Martin Pett...
Btw, Architect:
Price in US: USD 6326 (EUR 5547.45)
Price in Europe: EUR 9093.75 (USD 10369.94)

Ouch

Jan Martin Pett...

Posts: 88
Registered: 12/8/02
Re: Price increase? [Edit] [Edit] [Edit] [Edit]
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  Posted: May 6, 2016 10:52 AM   in response to: Christopher Burke in response to: Christopher Burke
Christopher Burke wrote:
Jan Martin Pettersen wrote:

product..which would mean that if that were the case, then the SA
would've been priced alot higher than the product itself.

SA is a known, advance payment - vs upgrades which are sporadic.

It is the same reason you pay less for data allowances, than you do for
ad hoc data.

Anyway - the support side of the equation is the ONLY difference I
could see between EU and US/AU.

I mean in AU we are paying way less than EU as well.

EU : EUR 1818 (AU$2823.30 ex GST)
EU : EUR 1185 (AU$1840.27 ex GST)

AU : Normally AU$2,312.20 Discounted AU$2,080.10 Inc GST
AU : Normally AU$1,505.90 Discounted AU$1,355.20 Inc GST

BTW - I'm not saying the support situation IS the reason, I'm just
offering it as the only viable reason I can think of.

Basically, the only remaining reason is..greed.

Alternatively, dumping all the price increases on europeans to subsidy
US and to a lesser degree, other countries customers.

Btw, the undiscounted EU price is EUR 2530 not 1818.
It was EUR 1821 with the introductory offer (which still runs), until
May 1..or thereabout.

Edited by: Jan Martin Pettersen on May 6, 2016 6:54 PM
Michael Thuma

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Re: Price increase? [Edit] [Edit]
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  Posted: Jun 2, 2016 9:07 AM   in response to: Mark Jacobs in response to: Mark Jacobs
One observation. A pretty similar difference shows up when MS licences prices for advanced version of VS are compared between U.K. and U.S. Putting the blame on the Brits has always been a good strategy ;).

VAT plays a certain role and the price ist not 2530 its 2428.80.

Maybe on a PC with a Google Browser :). Nowadays you never know. You can have different prices for a product dependent on the device.

If you consider USD = EUR then the difference is about 300 - That's a buck for a Spartan. Since I have no access to the prices in USD don't know if USD 1760 still applies and does not include any VAT.

But in case of an RX Enterprise Upgrade it's a whole devex subscription if you include VAT. That makes a difference.

I don't know where the difference really does come from. I'd simply ask for a discount. Maybe because in Europe companies simply want discounts or having to dial-in the customer service preserves a job and the job of the one who dials in - socialists :).

Due to the high pay roll taxes (social insurance costs, income tax ...) tools are not really welcome. That's the huge majority of licences sales lost. For anyone else RX/DX/CX will make sense or it doesn't matter. Believe me it does not. Potential customers like freelancer for example are wiped out long before for another reason and anyone else uses something different. The options are well know but the reason why those options are pretty limited but the only choices left is another discussion. You are pushed towards big vendors for many reasons which leaves behind many small and mid-range companies demands for software.

EMB can never compensate the fact that in Austria tax freedom day is by the middle of August. Afford every 6 months double the pay 4 times net salary.

There is a good reason why the right and the liberals are on the rise here :).

Mike


Mark Jacobs wrote:
Jan Martin Pettersen wrote:
EUR prices: http://i.imgur.com/FNZemUZ.jpg
USD prices: http://imgur.com/HmSbyzb
The undiscounted upgrade price for Professional in the US is $1760, while in europe it is EUR 2530 (iow, USD 2913).

Unbelievable! Why does Europe pay nearly twice what the Yanks pay, for the same product?
--
Mark Jacobs
http://www.critical.co.uk

--
Delphi Programming is fun. Hilarious.
Jan Martin Pett...

Posts: 88
Registered: 12/8/02
Re: Price increase? [Edit] [Edit]
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  Posted: Jun 5, 2016 12:34 AM   in response to: Michael Thuma in response to: Michael Thuma
Michael Thuma wrote:
One observation. A pretty similar difference shows up when MS licences prices for advanced version of VS are compared between U.K. and U.S. Putting the blame on the Brits has always been a good strategy ;).

VAT plays a certain role and the price ist not 2530 its 2428.80.

Maybe on a PC with a Google Browser :). Nowadays you never know. You can have different prices for a product dependent on the device.

If you consider USD = EUR then the difference is about 300 - That's a buck for a Spartan. Since I have no access to the prices in USD don't know if USD 1760 still applies and does not include any VAT.

But in case of an RX Enterprise Upgrade it's a whole devex subscription if you include VAT. That makes a difference.

I don't know where the difference really does come from. I'd simply ask for a discount. Maybe because in Europe companies simply want discounts or having to dial-in the customer service preserves a job and the job of the one who dials in - socialists :).

Due to the high pay roll taxes (social insurance costs, income tax ...) tools are not really welcome. That's the huge majority of licences sales lost. For anyone else RX/DX/CX will make sense or it doesn't matter. Believe me it does not. Potential customers like freelancer for example are wiped out long before for another reason and anyone else uses something different. The options are well know but the reason why those options are pretty limited but the only choices left is another discussion. You are pushed towards big vendors for many reasons which leaves behind many small and mid-range companies demands for software.

EMB can never compensate the fact that in Austria tax freedom day is by the middle of August. Afford every 6 months double the pay 4 times net salary.

There is a good reason why the right and the liberals are on the rise here :).

Mike


Mark Jacobs wrote:
Jan Martin Pettersen wrote:
EUR prices: http://i.imgur.com/FNZemUZ.jpg
USD prices: http://imgur.com/HmSbyzb
The undiscounted upgrade price for Professional in the US is $1760, while in europe it is EUR 2530 (iow, USD 2913).

Unbelievable! Why does Europe pay nearly twice what the Yanks pay, for the same product?
--
Mark Jacobs
http://www.critical.co.uk

--
Delphi Programming is fun. Hilarious.
It is still listed as EUR 2530 (and now it doesn't have the 10% discount it did when I wrote the main post).
Not to mention, they increased the base price by 500 during the 10% discount offer (between Apr 30 and May 1)
..and still called it discount.

If they collect VAT then they surely pay it to the respective countries they collect it for, riiight.
(I find that quite unlikely)
If they don't pay it, then labelling it VAT doesn't make it so (it is still put in their "pocket").

USD (usually) isn't even close to EUR, and when they introduced that fake currency conversion the difference was ~30-35%,
hence it was a huge price increase.

I don't have a company to pay my expenses, so all of these increases matters.
I downgraded to Delphi 10.1 Pro, iow I got half of what I had for the same price I paid for RAD XE6 Pro (April 2014).

About MS.. Their new user price for Pro w/msdn sub is less than half of RAD Studio Pro.
Without msdn it is ~ 1/4 (or free).

Edited by: Jan Martin Pettersen on Jun 5, 2016 12:36 PM
Markus Humm

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  Posted: Jun 5, 2016 10:47 AM   in response to: Jan Martin Pett... in response to: Jan Martin Pett...
Am 05.06.2016 um 13:37 schrieb Jan Martin Pettersen:


About MS.. Their new user price for Pro w/msdn sub is less than half of RAD Studio Pro.
Without msdn it is ~ 1/4 (or free).

While I'd like to see cheaper EUR prices as well that comparison to MS
dev tools is always a bit skewed as they do not need to make their
living out of them. They produce them to help their other paid products
like Windows, Office or Azure.

I'd rather like them splitt off completely, as this would require MS to
write much better documentation as without it no company could produce
decent dev tools for their platforms and thus support for their
platforms would decrease ;-)

Greetings

Markus
Michael Thuma

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Re: Price increase? [Edit] [Edit]
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  Posted: Jun 6, 2016 12:33 AM   in response to: Jan Martin Pett... in response to: Jan Martin Pett...
I'm aware of the problem with exchange rates.

Jan Martin Pettersen wrote:
Michael Thuma wrote:

It is still listed as EUR 2530 (and now it doesn't have the 10% discount it did when I wrote the main post).
Not to mention, they increased the base price by 500 during the 10% discount offer (between Apr 30 and May 1)
..and still called it discount.
Then the difference is in the VAT tax rate (between our investigations)


If they collect VAT then they surely pay it to the respective countries they collect it for, riiight.
(I find that quite unlikely)
If they don't pay it, then labelling it VAT doesn't make it so (it is still put in their "pocket").
Then call the customer service and buy another way. If not - you can claim the VAT refund in every other country anyway. The question is, does the overhead involved pay. Corporates don't have a problem concerning that..


USD (usually) isn't even close to EUR, and when they introduced that fake currency conversion the difference was ~30-35%,
hence it was a huge price increase.
No doubt about that.

I don't have a company to pay my expenses, so all of these increases matters.
I downgraded to Delphi 10.1 Pro, iow I got half of what I had for the same price I paid for RAD XE6 Pro (April 2014).
I did that at the time of XE3.


About MS.. Their new user price for Pro w/msdn sub is less than half of RAD Studio Pro.
Without msdn it is ~ 1/4 (or free).
Comparing the price of tools does not make any sense. Comparing the tools is more wise. Don't buy what you cannot afford. If I had the USD prices converted to EURO then I would buy a lot more.

If you don't have existing applications built with Delphi forget about it. I simply would not start to developing for the desktop at the moment. That's not a matter of the price.

I really appreciate what EMB provide in general but most of the new features offered are of no use here.

I don't see things connected to the internet, what is called industry 4.0 here in Austria is a joke, that's the German penny pincher version of keeping the dream alive that everyone working manually in a socialist society is awesome ... 'planned economy'.

If the income would be adjusted to productivity and I think in Sweden the story is not a lot different you'd have 35-50% higher net pay. Then we would not discuss about the price. The Europeans are simply pretty unproductive.


Edited by: Jan Martin Pettersen on Jun 5, 2016 12:36 PM

--
Delphi Programming is fun. Hilarious.
Miroslaw Rogula

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Re: Price increase? [Edit]
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  Posted: May 6, 2016 12:42 PM   in response to: Jan Martin Pett... in response to: Jan Martin Pett...
I think that at that price it is good to start to learn Microsoft C#. I
start it. I have XE6 Prof and I think it will be my last version. I do not
complain. I just simply and slowly change the language I use. And good
luck to Idera managers. They are as "wise" as Emabrcadero.


Regards
MR_FLASH
Mirosław Rogula


www.faktury-ok.pl

In April the introductory 10% off resulted in an upgrade price of EUR
1821.xx (full upgrade price was barely over 2K) for RAD Studio 10.1 Berlin
Professional.
The May introductory price (same offer, same product) is EUR 2227, and the
full upgrade price is EUR 2530 (iow, 2530-2000= +500 since april).

It seems like they sure do know how to increase their prices, even
mid-offer.
Yes, I know Berlin includes 1 year SA (just like it did in April).

Just for fun, compare the new prices with XE (EUR 699), XE3 (EUR 799), XE6
(EUR 1129).
XE7 and earlier didn't require SA to get the updates/bugfixes for it, so
that change was yet another price increase.

Where is the EUR1000-1400 worth of changes in RAD Studio 10.1 Berlin
Professional since XE6?
(I don't do mobile nor other platforms, just windows 32/64).

Edited by: Jan Martin Pettersen on May 1, 2016 10:22 AM

Christopher Burke

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Re: Price increase? [Edit]
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  Posted: May 6, 2016 12:56 PM   in response to: Miroslaw Rogula in response to: Miroslaw Rogula
Miroslaw Rogula wrote:

I think that at that price it is good to start to learn Microsoft C#.

C#, like Java, Javascript etc isn't in the same league as Delphi or C++
etc.
Jan Martin Pett...

Posts: 88
Registered: 12/8/02
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  Posted: May 6, 2016 4:33 PM   in response to: Christopher Burke in response to: Christopher Burke
Christopher Burke wrote:
Miroslaw Rogula wrote:

I think that at that price it is good to start to learn Microsoft C#.

C#, like Java, Javascript etc isn't in the same league as Delphi or C++
etc.
It is probably nice that C++ apparently is in the same package then, like several other languages.
The biggest difference, except price is..It isn't Delphi.
But then again, how long can I say that, with the prices as they are..
Gilbert Padilla

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Re: Price increase? [Edit]
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  Posted: May 6, 2016 9:05 PM   in response to: Christopher Burke in response to: Christopher Burke
Christopher Burke wrote:
C#, like Java, Javascript etc isn't in the same league as Delphi or C++
etc.

there is .NET Native
Christopher Burke

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  Posted: May 7, 2016 12:29 AM   in response to: Gilbert Padilla in response to: Gilbert Padilla
Gilbert Padilla wrote:

Christopher Burke wrote:
C#, like Java, Javascript etc isn't in the same league as Delphi
or C++ etc.

there is .NET Native

How many tools are there that natively target Win32/64/OSX/iOS and
Android ?
Gilbert Padilla

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  Posted: May 7, 2016 8:22 AM   in response to: Christopher Burke in response to: Christopher Burke
Christopher Burke wrote:
How many tools are there that natively target Win32/64/OSX/iOS and
Android ?

Xojo, Xamarin, FPC/Lazarus, QT Toolkit ...
Christopher Burke

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  Posted: May 7, 2016 5:09 PM   in response to: Gilbert Padilla in response to: Gilbert Padilla
Gilbert Padilla wrote:

Xojo, Xamarin, FPC/Lazarus, QT Toolkit ...

According to their respective sites:

Xamarain: Doesn't do desktop native (e.g. Win32 or OSX)
Xojo: Quickly becomes far more expensive than Delphi (with addons)
Lazarus: Incomplete, lacks commercial grade support, no build in mobile
development.
QT Toolkit: Not an integrated tool, pretty much just a library. Not
truly native.
Dimitrij Kowalski

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Re: Price increase? [Edit]
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  Posted: May 8, 2016 10:28 PM   in response to: Christopher Burke in response to: Christopher Burke
{quote:title=Christopher Burke wrote:}

QT Toolkit: Not an integrated tool, pretty much just a library. Not
truly native.

It is definitely way more than a library. It is fully fledged IDE - I was able to port my VCL Delphi drawing component in a few days.
Christopher Burke

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  Posted: May 9, 2016 5:43 AM   in response to: Dimitrij Kowalski in response to: Dimitrij Kowalski
Dimitrij Kowalski wrote:

{quote:title=Christopher Burke wrote:}

QT Toolkit: Not an integrated tool, pretty much just a library. Not
truly native.

It is definitely way more than a library. It is fully fledged IDE - I
was able to port my VCL Delphi drawing component in a few days.

From my understanding it is a library that ties in with a generic IDE,
but I'm only going on what google will tell me.

Either way - it isn't any match for what Delphi does.
Dimitrij Kowalski

Posts: 92
Registered: 1/6/05
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  Posted: May 9, 2016 11:28 PM   in response to: Christopher Burke in response to: Christopher Burke
Christopher Burke wrote:
Dimitrij Kowalski wrote:

{quote:title=Christopher Burke wrote:}

QT Toolkit: Not an integrated tool, pretty much just a library. Not
truly native.

It is definitely way more than a library. It is fully fledged IDE - I
was able to port my VCL Delphi drawing component in a few days.

From my understanding it is a library that ties in with a generic IDE,
but I'm only going on what google will tell me.

Either way - it isn't any match for what Delphi does.

Strange that google did not return you results such as:

https://www.qt.io/mobile-app-development/

"Write Your App Once Deploy It Everywhere" - Qt runs on Android, iOS, Windows Phone, Windows RT, BlackBerry10 and Sailfish
It also compiles under Linux and Mac.

From my (unbiased) point of view it actually does more than Delphi (Windows RT for instance). Do I need to remind you that Delphi uses external compiler to target different platforms?

As for the IDE itself, it has its own problems, you know what they say: "grass is always greener at the other side of the fence" :)
Christopher Burke

Posts: 580
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  Posted: May 10, 2016 4:43 AM   in response to: Dimitrij Kowalski in response to: Dimitrij Kowalski
Dimitrij Kowalski wrote:

Strange that google did not return you results such as:

Yeah mine returned GIT projects and stuff ... so thanks for the real
link.

From my (unbiased) point of view it actually does more than Delphi ?
(Windows RT for instance). Do I need to remind you that Delphi uses
external compiler to target different platforms?

It doesn't do Win32 - which means from my biased point of view it does
zero.

But from an unbiased perspective, not catering for Windows desktop is a
severe shortcoming indeed.

So as I said, doesn't come anywhere near Delphi.

I don't care how Delphi does what it does, it does allow common code
base to be shared across all major platforms in native compilation.

Still not to find anything close.
Cesar Romero


Posts: 462
Registered: 3/22/00
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  Posted: May 10, 2016 5:16 AM   in response to: Christopher Burke in response to: Christopher Burke
Christopher Burke wrote:

It doesn't do Win32 - which means from my biased point of view it does
zero.

Yes it does, you are only looking for the mobile platforms link, that
explains why you did not found Windows 32/64-bit reference.

https://www.qt.io/download-open-source/#section-2


[]s

Cesar Romero

Christopher Burke

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  Posted: May 10, 2016 6:50 AM   in response to: Cesar Romero in response to: Cesar Romero
Cesar Romero wrote:

Christopher Burke wrote:

It doesn't do Win32 - which means from my biased point of view it
does zero.

Yes it does, you are only looking for the mobile platforms link, that
explains why you did not found Windows 32/64-bit reference.

Ok, it doesn't really support native Win32 (i.e you can't compile a
native win32 EXE to distrubute).

As I mentioned earlier, once you head to Win32 (not sure about other
platforms) - it is just pretty much a library, the Win32 deployment
instructions show all the qt dlls you have to deploy etc.

In addiiton - it a lot more expensive than Delphi (annually), without
the streamlined devleopment/deployment across multiple platforms of
Delphi.

So no native Win32 targetting, no streamlined deployment and way more
expensive than Delphi ... not sure it is really comparible to Delphi.

Cesar Romero


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Re: Price increase? [Edit]
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  Posted: May 10, 2016 7:11 AM   in response to: Christopher Burke in response to: Christopher Burke
Christopher Burke wrote:


Ok, it doesn't really support native Win32 (i.e you can't compile a
native win32 EXE to distrubute).

What you mean by "native win32"?

The C++ compiler will generate a Win32/|Win64 app, QT is the graphic
library, as VCL is the Graphic library for Delphi.

It is the same as compile a VCL application with packages. Packages is
just a customized type of dll, once you start the application the .dll
will be linked and you will not have any penalty.

Most of VCL is just a wrapper for windows graphic library, QT is doing
the same.


As I mentioned earlier, once you head to Win32 (not sure about other
platforms) - it is just pretty much a library, the Win32 deployment
instructions show all the qt dlls you have to deploy etc.

And deploy dll's is too much for you? Just add to the installer build
process and make sure to use compatible versions, that is how to do
applications in Windows, Delphi just simplify for us.

I have been using external .dll in my projects for years, so for you it
is not a Win32 native application?

In addiiton - it a lot more expensive than Delphi (annually), without
the streamlined devleopment/deployment across multiple platforms of
Delphi.

Delphi IDE is RAD and is more produtive than most of the IDEs out
there, this is other topic than "supports win32 native"


So no native Win32 targetting, no streamlined deployment and way more
expensive than Delphi ... not sure it is really comparible to Delphi.

For windows32/64 I think Delphi is still the most productive tool.
For crossplatform development, I have to mensure how much of the code
will be reused to justify the choice of one tool for all. Here we use
Delphi for Windows Desktops, some DataSnap Servers a lot of Java
Servers, Android Studio and XCode for iOS.

Regards,

Cesar Romero

Christopher Burke

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Re: Price increase? [Edit]
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  Posted: May 10, 2016 10:00 PM   in response to: Cesar Romero in response to: Cesar Romero
Cesar Romero wrote:

Christopher Burke wrote:
What you mean by "native win32"?

Runs directly on win32 without additional support infrastructure.

The C++ compiler will generate a Win32/|Win64 app, QT is the graphic
library, as VCL is the Graphic library for Delphi.

VCL is a source library, QT is a support library.

Most of VCL is just a wrapper for windows graphic library, QT is doing
the same.

Then how come I have to include a bizarre recipe of additional files in
various specific places to get the EXE to run ?

And deploy dll's is too much for you?

Has been, incompatibilities between current version EXE and libraries
has been problematic in the past. So we don't do it that way any more.

I have been using external .dll in my projects for years, so for you
it is not a Win32 native application?

Can the EXE run at all without the extra DLL (i.e. load the DLL if
required) ?

Delphi IDE is RAD and is more produtive than most of the IDEs out
there, this is other topic than "supports win32 native"

It is the core topic - is anything out there competitive with Delphi
for the price (i.e same result, same or cheaper price).

For windows32/64 I think Delphi is still the most productive tool.

Well the vast majority of business still happens on Win32, simple
development on that platform is a must for any competitor for Delphi.

For crossplatform development, I have to mensure how much of the code
will be reused to justify the choice of one tool for all.

The highest value of most businesses is their business logic,
frequently codified in source code. Having to redo a decade of code
from scratch is FAR more costly than paying $1000 a year to maintain
Delphi.

Regards,
Cesar Romero

You too.

Christopher Burke
Gilbert Padilla

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Re: Price increase? [Edit]
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  Posted: May 11, 2016 6:53 AM   in response to: Christopher Burke in response to: Christopher Burke
Christopher Burke wrote:
Having to redo a decade of code
from scratch is FAR more costly than paying $1000 a year to maintain
Delphi.

It means that Embarcadero do not care to expands their market.
Dalija Prasnikar

Posts: 2,325
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Re: Price increase? [Edit]
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  Posted: May 11, 2016 7:39 AM   in response to: Gilbert Padilla in response to: Gilbert Padilla
Gilbert Padilla wrote:
Christopher Burke wrote:
Having to redo a decade of code
from scratch is FAR more costly than paying $1000 a year to maintain
Delphi.

It means that Embarcadero do not care to expands their market.

Oh, I am sure they care to expand.

Question should be is it working ;-)

--
Dalija Prasnikar
https://twitter.com/dalijap
https://plus.google.com/+DalijaPrasnikar
Jan Martin Pett...

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Re: Price increase? [Edit]
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  Posted: May 11, 2016 10:54 PM   in response to: Dalija Prasnikar in response to: Dalija Prasnikar
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:
Gilbert Padilla wrote:
Christopher Burke wrote:
Having to redo a decade of code
from scratch is FAR more costly than paying $1000 a year to maintain
Delphi.

It means that Embarcadero do not care to expands their market.

Oh, I am sure they care to expand.

Question should be is it working ;-)

--
Dalija Prasnikar
https://twitter.com/dalijap
https://plus.google.com/+DalijaPrasnikar

Most likely not.. I guess the merged price (with a possible price increase on top) and
the + ~EUR 500 increase for europeans were Idera's first and second decision.

I don't know if that was to maximize short-term gain before they resell it or something, but..
Jan Martin Pett...

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Re: Price increase? [Edit]
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  Posted: May 12, 2016 8:37 AM   in response to: Jan Martin Pett... in response to: Jan Martin Pett...
So I ended up upgrading to Delphi Pro from RAD Studio XE6 Pro, which should be ok according to the description,
the Upgrade Eligibility page, the purchase email header, etc. But nooo..
That silly registration thingy don't see the RAD Studio Pro XE6 registration at the bottom of my registered products.
Nor does it "see" it in the 10.1 licensemanager, even though it is there, along with the rest.

After waiting for a support response for about ~10 hours, I can't say I'm
impressed with their (intentional?) lack of registration support.

Edit: This would be 18 hours at this point.

Edit: After quite some time this has finally been resolved, and I'm with what I hope will be a working product (it is currently installing).

Edited by: Jan Martin Pettersen on May 13, 2016 3:21 AM

Edited by: Jan Martin Pettersen on May 13, 2016 1:05 PM
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: Price increase? [Edit]
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  Posted: May 15, 2016 7:03 PM   in response to: Jan Martin Pett... in response to: Jan Martin Pett...
Jan Martin Pettersen wrote:

Most likely not.. I guess the merged price (with a possible price
increase on top) and the + ~EUR 500 increase for europeans were
Idera's first and second decision.

I doubt it. I don't know why that is so hard to understand, but they
simply take what they think they can get away with. I would do the
same. That is the same for many other products that are sold worldwide,
including cars, burgers and softdrinks.

So, ISTM they expect they can get away with the different prices they
charge in the different markets they sell to. If this turns out to be
wrong, I guess they will correct it.
--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"The world is a tragedy to those who feel, but a comedy to those
who think." -- Horace Walpole (1717-1797)
Gilbert Padilla

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Re: Price increase? [Edit]
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  Posted: May 12, 2016 7:13 PM   in response to: Dalija Prasnikar in response to: Dalija Prasnikar
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:
Oh, I am sure they care to expand.

Question should be is it working ;-)

That’s a good question but Christopher legacy code argument doesn't seem to
show any signs of market expansion instead of a frozen market.
Christopher Burke

Posts: 580
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Re: Price increase? [Edit]
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  Posted: May 12, 2016 10:08 PM   in response to: Gilbert Padilla in response to: Gilbert Padilla
Gilbert Padilla wrote:

Dalija Prasnikar wrote:
Oh, I am sure they care to expand.

Question should be is it working ;-)

That’s a good question but Christopher legacy code argument doesn't
seem to show any signs of market expansion instead of a frozen market.

Legacy code support combined with multi-platform support is how 'today'
becomes 'the future'.
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: Price increase? [Edit]
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  Posted: May 15, 2016 6:59 PM   in response to: Gilbert Padilla in response to: Gilbert Padilla
Gilbert Padilla wrote:

Christopher Burke wrote:
Having to redo a decade of code
from scratch is FAR more costly than paying $1000 a year to
maintain Delphi.

It means that Embarcadero do not care to expands their market.

I pay much more yearly to maintain the dental software I use, and these
people are still expanding, although they already are the market
leader, much larget than any competitor.

But I pay it because I make money with it.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Assassins!"
-- Arturo Toscanini (1867-1957) to his orchestra
Dimitrij Kowalski

Posts: 92
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Re: Price increase? [Edit]
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  Posted: May 11, 2016 11:33 AM   in response to: Christopher Burke in response to: Christopher Burke
Christopher
I would never recommend to anyone rewriting the code for other "better" language. We were just merely discussing if there is any other tool that is capable of doing the same as Delphi.
It is hard to discuss that topic if you haven't tried Qt and you are googling about it. It just requires to go a little deeper into it. I am not consider myself to be advanced in Qt either but from my experience:

- It offers two modes of writing visual aplication. One is like VCL and it is called Qt Widget and other is like FMX and it is called Qt Quick. So it is very simmilar to Delphi. As for the IDE, the designer is not as good as in Delphi.
(BTW: I just got back from Delphi 10.1 presentation and I am really impressed* about possibilites of FMX in terms of GUI design. I mean, wow...) So developing forms in Qt is clumsy, Delphi is way better in that regard. But the backbone of technology is based on the same idea.

- As I've said, I've ported my Delphi visual component in a few days and it behaves exactly the same and after compilation it is native Win32 / Win64 application. It took me few days because it was my first usage of Qt. I was managed to do it with the help from guys from Qt forum. The forum which is not archaic like this one, wich offers a direct embeded chat and other features. Here, I can't even find all of my own posts!

- Is Qt better than Delphi? I don't know, some features are better some are worse. For example, sometimes you need to clean the whole project, or close and open it just to be able to rebuild with the new changes. Silly :) I just wanted to say that there is an alternative and I hope that Embarcadero is aware of that because it can only be good for us.

* - There was an access violation at the presentation :(
Christopher Burke

Posts: 580
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Re: Price increase? [Edit]
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  Posted: May 12, 2016 12:59 PM   in response to: Dimitrij Kowalski in response to: Dimitrij Kowalski
Dimitrij Kowalski wrote:

Christopher
I would never recommend to anyone rewriting the code for other
"better" language. We were just merely discussing if there is any
other tool that is capable of doing the same as Delphi. It is hard
to discuss that topic if you haven't tried Qt and you are googling
about it. It just requires to go a little deeper into it. I am not
consider myself to be advanced in Qt either but from my experience:

QT doesn't do the same as Delphi, that's obvious from just looking at
the Win32 deployment instructions.

Even if all other platforms are awesome, the fact it does poorly on
Win32 is enough to mean it doesn't compare to Delphi.
Friedrich Weste...

Posts: 11
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Re: Price increase? [Edit]
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  Posted: May 12, 2016 4:11 PM   in response to: Christopher Burke in response to: Christopher Burke
Christopher Burke wrote:

Even if all other platforms are awesome, the fact it does poorly on
Win32 is enough to mean it doesn't compare to Delphi.

Hello Christopher,
from my sight you are complete wrong. We are using QT on WIN 32/64 and MAC Desktop.
there are some small problems, but it is in a better shape as FMX. And it is working on Win32 without a problem.
at moment there are more than 12000 installations of our software around the world. I'm not aware of any problem caused by QT. Can you explain from where you have your inside about QT?
By the way i'm an Delphi user from Day one, started with TP 1.0 So i don't want to fight a war but .....

Fritz
Christopher Burke

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Re: Price increase? [Edit]
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  Posted: May 12, 2016 10:06 PM   in response to: Friedrich Weste... in response to: Friedrich Weste...
Friedrich Westermann wrote:

Christopher Burke wrote:

Even if all other platforms are awesome, the fact it does poorly on
Win32 is enough to mean it doesn't compare to Delphi.

Hello Christopher,
from my sight you are complete wrong. We are using QT on WIN 32/64
and MAC Desktop.

Then can you link me to the correct win32 deployment page, obviously
the one I found was incorrect.
Joseph Mitzen

Posts: 392
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Re: Price increase? [Edit]
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  Posted: May 14, 2016 10:05 PM   in response to: Christopher Burke in response to: Christopher Burke
Christopher Burke wrote:
Friedrich Westermann wrote:

Christopher Burke wrote:

Even if all other platforms are awesome, the fact it does poorly on
Win32 is enough to mean it doesn't compare to Delphi.

Hello Christopher,
from my sight you are complete wrong. We are using QT on WIN 32/64
and MAC Desktop.

Then can you link me to the correct win32 deployment page, obviously
the one I found was incorrect.

There is no special deployment necessary. You might be getting confused because outside of Windows/Delphi world, people don't like to statically link code.
Christopher Burke

Posts: 580
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Re: Price increase? [Edit]
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  Posted: May 14, 2016 10:39 PM   in response to: Joseph Mitzen in response to: Joseph Mitzen
Joseph Mitzen wrote:

There is no special deployment necessary.

There is on the QT pages that were provided to me... huge long list of
bizarre things you had to do.
Quentin Correll


Posts: 2,412
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Re: Price increase? [Edit]
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  Posted: May 14, 2016 11:52 AM   in response to: Friedrich Weste... in response to: Friedrich Weste...
Friedrich,

| By the way i'm an Delphi user from Day one, started with TP 1.0

Ah, another ol'timer like me, in the DOS Days, before Windows. <g>

--

Q -- XanaNews 1.19.1.372 - 2016-05-14 11:50:46
Friedrich Weste...

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Re: Price increase? [Edit]
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  Posted: May 15, 2016 8:25 AM   in response to: Quentin Correll in response to: Quentin Correll
Quentin Correll <qcorrell at pacNObell dot net> wrote:
Friedrich,

| By the way i'm an Delphi user from Day one, started with TP 1.0

Ah, another ol'timer like me, in the DOS Days, before Windows. <g>

Oh yes, its a long time;-)
Cesar Romero


Posts: 462
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Re: Price increase? [Edit]
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  Posted: May 13, 2016 9:49 AM   in response to: Christopher Burke in response to: Christopher Burke
Christopher Burke wrote:

Runs directly on win32 without additional support infrastructure.

VCL uses windows .dll, in that case you don't have to deploy, it is
there, but if the Windows version do not have the version you are
targeting, then you have the same problem, deploy or no support, IE
Windows API implemented in Windows 10, that has no equivalent before.

The C++ compiler will generate a Win32/|Win64 app, QT is the graphic
library, as VCL is the Graphic library for Delphi.

VCL is a source library, QT is a support library.

VCL can have the sources, not all SKU include the sources.
QT has no sources? Just download the sources if that is a requirement
for you.



Then how come I have to include a bizarre recipe of additional files
in various specific places to get the EXE to run ?

If you cannot handle that, them you should keep simple, use the tools
that do it for you, like Delphi do now.
Christopher Burke

Posts: 580
Registered: 9/25/99
Re: Price increase? [Edit]
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  Posted: May 14, 2016 12:59 AM   in response to: Cesar Romero in response to: Cesar Romero
Cesar Romero wrote:

Christopher Burke wrote:

Runs directly on win32 without additional support infrastructure.

VCL uses windows .dll,

LOL, VCL uses Win32, that's the ENTIRE point of my argument... QT uses
- well QT.

Th
VCL can have the sources, not all SKU include the sources.

VCL is a source library, having or not having the source doesn't alter
that.

QT has no sources? Just download the sources if that is a requirement
for you.

Sorry, the point I'm making is so obvious and true, and I can't fathom
why you can't see it.

At this point - I'm not willing to spend more effort educating you.
Gilbert Padilla

Posts: 315
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Re: Price increase? [Edit]
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  Posted: May 14, 2016 12:16 PM   in response to: Christopher Burke in response to: Christopher Burke
Christopher Burke wrote:
LOL, VCL uses Win32, that's the ENTIRE point of my argument... QT uses
- well QT.

That is the GUI library of Win32 not the core or kernel, in windows server
core looks like the GUI it's an option not requirement.
Cesar Romero


Posts: 462
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Re: Price increase? [Edit]
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  Posted: May 16, 2016 4:07 AM   in response to: Christopher Burke in response to: Christopher Burke
Christopher Burke wrote:

LOL, VCL uses Win32, that's the ENTIRE point of my argument... QT uses
- well QT.

It does not matter, GUI library isnt windows kernel, your statement is
just wrong assuming that what MS deliver with windows is native and
anything else isnt. If your statement is true, then .NET is native too,
it is just .DLL that now is built in in any windows and uses windows
.dll.


Cesar Romero

Markus Humm

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Re: Price increase? [Edit]
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  Posted: May 16, 2016 9:14 AM   in response to: Cesar Romero in response to: Cesar Romero
Am 16.05.2016 um 13:07 schrieb Cesar Romero:
Christopher Burke wrote:

LOL, VCL uses Win32, that's the ENTIRE point of my argument... QT uses
- well QT.

It does not matter, GUI library isnt windows kernel, your statement is
just wrong assuming that what MS deliver with windows is native and
anything else isnt. If your statement is true, then .NET is native too,
it is just .DLL that now is built in in any windows and uses windows
.dll.

Hello,

I guess you should decide first what native means for you:

- CPU native (which non precompiled .NET isn't)
- Plattform native (which a GUI library isn't which doesn't mostly use
the Win32 API provided GUI controls)

Greetings

Markus
Cesar Romero


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Re: Price increase? [Edit]
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  Posted: May 16, 2016 9:25 AM   in response to: Markus Humm in response to: Markus Humm
Markus Humm wrote:

I guess you should decide first what native means for you:

- CPU native (which non precompiled .NET isn't)
- Plattform native (which a GUI library isn't which doesn't mostly use
the Win32 API provided GUI controls)

CPU native, that is what I'm telling for who think that add a .dll to
one project make it not native.

Even the OP looked for C# native, then had I pointed that there is no
suck thing, only .NET native.

Of course QT is using OpenGL to draw instead of the default graphic
library, but my point is that QT is just a graphic library, the C++
compiler is the responsable to create the native application.

I know that I have about 3 QT desktops apps installed here, and it is
as fast as any VCL application, maybe there are more, just not that I
have checked.

Cesar Romero

Christopher Burke

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Re: Price increase? [Edit]
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  Posted: May 16, 2016 7:06 PM   in response to: Cesar Romero in response to: Cesar Romero
Cesar Romero wrote:

CPU native, that is what I'm telling for who think that add a .dll to
one project make it not native.

The term Win32 native is what I've used all along.

If I can't even write a 'Hello world' EXE, then it isn't native.

I don't have a problem having a few DLLs, but my main EXE can run
without them and disable that functionality, or it can download the DLL
from a central config server if required.

However - when that external DLL is part of the framework required to
even launch the ExE, then it means that the EXE isn't native Win32.
Gilbert Padilla

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Re: Price increase? [Edit]
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  Posted: May 16, 2016 8:15 PM   in response to: Cesar Romero in response to: Cesar Romero
Cesar Romero wrote:


Of course QT is using OpenGL to draw instead of the default graphic
library...

Yes and Windows 32 GUI Library uses GDI, GDI+, DirectX..... so is the same
concept
Christopher Burke

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Re: Price increase? [Edit]
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  Posted: May 16, 2016 8:26 PM   in response to: Gilbert Padilla in response to: Gilbert Padilla
Gilbert Padilla wrote:

Yes and Windows 32 GUI Library uses GDI, GDI+, DirectX..... so is the
same concept

GDI, GDI+, DirectX area all part of Win32 native.

QT isn't.

If you can get Microsoft to make it different, then QT will offer Win32
native.

Until then - it isn't.
Jan Martin Pett...

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Re: Price increase? [Edit]
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  Posted: May 16, 2016 8:37 PM   in response to: Christopher Burke in response to: Christopher Burke
Christopher Burke wrote:
Cesar Romero wrote:

CPU native, that is what I'm telling for who think that add a .dll to
one project make it not native.

The term Win32 native is what I've used all along.

If I can't even write a 'Hello world' EXE, then it isn't native.

I don't have a problem having a few DLLs, but my main EXE can run
without them and disable that functionality, or it can download the DLL
from a central config server if required.

However - when that external DLL is part of the framework required to
even launch the ExE, then it means that the EXE isn't native Win32.

..which defines Delphi non-static applications as non-native..
Example: vcl*.bpl, rtl*.bpl, and so on.

You can't really define it like that without including Delphi and just about
everything else utilizing some kind of framework. As far as I can see, the
only difference between QT and Delphi/C++ is that Delphi is shipped with
prebuilt "static libraries" and QT isn't.

Between .NET and Delphi/C++ there's normally a few more, such as
the reliance on CLR (iow, code isn't directly runnable by win32/64), and
so on.
Jan Martin Pett...

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Re: Price increase? [Edit]
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  Posted: May 16, 2016 8:44 PM   in response to: Jan Martin Pett... in response to: Jan Martin Pett...
I probably should've limited myself to the frameworks (VCL, QT, .Net).
though .NET is a slightly different kind of framework.

Delphi/C++ aren't really the problem, and is an orange among apples
in the comparision.
Gilbert Padilla

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Re: Price increase? [Edit]
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  Posted: May 16, 2016 10:33 PM   in response to: Christopher Burke in response to: Christopher Burke
Christopher Burke wrote:
Yes and Windows 32 GUI Library uses GDI, GDI+, DirectX..... so is the
same concept

GDI, GDI+, DirectX area all part of Win32 native.

So Firemonkey Applications are not Win32 native, also OpenGL is not native
either
Christopher Burke

Posts: 580
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Re: Price increase? [Edit]
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  Posted: May 16, 2016 11:23 PM   in response to: Gilbert Padilla in response to: Gilbert Padilla
Gilbert Padilla wrote:

Christopher Burke wrote:
Yes and Windows 32 GUI Library uses GDI, GDI+, DirectX..... so is
the same concept

GDI, GDI+, DirectX area all part of Win32 native.

So Firemonkey Applications are not Win32 native, also OpenGL is not
native either

I can write a Firemonkey application (EXE) that runs on Win32 can't I?

That means it is Win32 native. It requires no other infrastructure
other than Win32 to run.
Gilbert Padilla

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Re: Price increase? [Edit]
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  Posted: May 17, 2016 8:06 AM   in response to: Christopher Burke in response to: Christopher Burke
I can write a Firemonkey application (EXE) that runs on Win32 can't I?

That means it is Win32 native. It requires no other infrastructure
other than Win32 to run.

Then any .NET application do not need any other infrastructure to run on
windows, .NET is part of windows.
Cesar Romero


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Re: Price increase? [Edit]
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  Posted: May 17, 2016 9:03 AM   in response to: Gilbert Padilla in response to: Gilbert Padilla
Gilbert Padilla wrote:

Then any .NET application do not need any other infrastructure to run
on windows, .NET is part of windows.

That is exacly my point in another post, his idea of what is native is
something different.

Cesar Romero

Christopher Burke

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Re: Price increase? [Edit]
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  Posted: May 22, 2016 12:37 AM   in response to: Cesar Romero in response to: Cesar Romero
Cesar Romero wrote:

Gilbert Padilla wrote:

Then any .NET application do not need any other infrastructure to
run on windows, .NET is part of windows.

That is exacly my point in another post, his idea of what is native is
something different.

Native = runs on a Windows Win32 machine without additional
infrastructure.

Pretty straight forward definition really :)

John Treder

Posts: 349
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Re: Price increase? [Edit]
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  Posted: May 22, 2016 9:43 AM   in response to: Christopher Burke in response to: Christopher Burke
Christopher Burke wrote:

Native = runs on a Windows Win32 machine without additional
infrastructure.

Pretty straight forward definition really :)


But Native <> runs on a Windows Win64 machine without additional infrastructure?
And Native <> runs on an Apple machine without additiona infrastructure?

--
John
Christopher Burke

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Re: Price increase? [Edit]
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  Posted: May 22, 2016 7:11 PM   in response to: John Treder in response to: John Treder
John Treder wrote:

Christopher Burke wrote:

Native = runs on a Windows Win32 machine without additional
infrastructure.

Pretty straight forward definition really :)


But Native <> runs on a Windows Win64 machine without additional
infrastructure?

If you install Windows on a machine, then Win32 native stuff runs on it
without additional infrastrucutre.

I feel like I'm trying to explain to people how the earth isn't flat.

Can't be any more simple.
Cesar Romero


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Re: Price increase? [Edit]
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  Posted: May 23, 2016 4:23 AM   in response to: Christopher Burke in response to: Christopher Burke
Christopher Burke wrote:

Native = runs on a Windows Win32 machine without additional
infrastructure.

Pretty straight forward definition really :)


That is your definition, what about win64 running win32? is it native?
Christopher Burke

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Re: Price increase? [Edit]
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  Posted: May 23, 2016 5:25 AM   in response to: Cesar Romero in response to: Cesar Romero
Cesar Romero wrote:

Christopher Burke wrote:

Native = runs on a Windows Win32 machine without additional
infrastructure.

Pretty straight forward definition really :)


That is your definition, what about win64 running win32? is it native?

Win32 is a non-native adjunct to win64. That is, it a win32 app isn't a
native win64 app.

However, a native Win32 app will run on Win64 without additional
infrastructure.

Simple test: Compile a hello world application in your chosen tool,
take that EXE alone and put it on a bare bones Windows machine ... will
it run?

If the answer is YES, then you are compiling for native Win32.

I'm running out of ways to explain a trivial concept sorry.
Markus Humm

Posts: 5,113
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Re: Price increase? [Edit]
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  Posted: May 23, 2016 12:20 PM   in response to: Christopher Burke in response to: Christopher Burke
Am 23.05.2016 um 14:25 schrieb Christopher Burke:
Cesar Romero wrote:

Christopher Burke wrote:

Native = runs on a Windows Win32 machine without additional
infrastructure.

Pretty straight forward definition really :)


That is your definition, what about win64 running win32? is it native?

Win32 is a non-native adjunct to win64. That is, it a win32 app isn't a
native win64 app.

However, a native Win32 app will run on Win64 without additional
infrastructure.

Simple test: Compile a hello world application in your chosen tool,
take that EXE alone and put it on a bare bones Windows machine ... will
it run?

If the answer is YES, then you are compiling for native Win32.

I'm running out of ways to explain a trivial concept sorry.

It will run as long as MS includes all the necessary compatibility
stuff. For instance 16 bit Windows applications no logner run on 64 bit
Windows afaik as the necessary compatibility stuff is missing.

Greetings

Markus
Christopher Burke

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Re: Price increase? [Edit]
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  Posted: May 23, 2016 6:15 PM   in response to: Markus Humm in response to: Markus Humm
Markus Humm wrote:

It will run as long as MS includes all the necessary compatibility
stuff.

Indeed, that sort of is the definition - Win32 native depends entirely
on who made Win32... i.e. MS.
Christopher Burke

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Re: Price increase? [Edit]
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  Posted: May 22, 2016 12:37 AM   in response to: Gilbert Padilla in response to: Gilbert Padilla
Gilbert Padilla wrote:

I can write a Firemonkey application (EXE) that runs on Win32 can't
I?

That means it is Win32 native. It requires no other infrastructure
other than Win32 to run.

Then any .NET application do not need any other infrastructure to run
on windows, .NET is part of windows.

.NET requires .NET infrastructure, which isn't always part of Windows
installs.

Certainly isn't part of most of our target machines.
Gilbert Padilla

Posts: 315
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Re: Price increase? [Edit]
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  Posted: May 22, 2016 9:33 AM   in response to: Christopher Burke in response to: Christopher Burke
Christopher Burke wrote:
.NET requires .NET infrastructure, which isn't always part of Windows
installs.

Certainly isn't part of most of our target machines.

We could say the same about DirectX or the Windows GUI, other wise how FMX
could exist.
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: Price increase? [Edit]
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  Posted: May 22, 2016 9:53 AM   in response to: Gilbert Padilla in response to: Gilbert Padilla
Gilbert Padilla wrote:

Christopher Burke wrote:
.NET requires .NET infrastructure, which isn't always part of
Windows installs.

Certainly isn't part of most of our target machines.

We could say the same about DirectX or the Windows GUI, other wise
how FMX could exist.

AFAIK, FMX can use several technologies, not just DirectX.
--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"I'm always amazed to hear of air crash victims so badly
mutilated that they have to be identified by their dental
records. What I can't understand is, if they don't know who
you are, how do they know who your dentist is?"
-- Paul Merton
Gilbert Padilla

Posts: 315
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Re: Price increase? [Edit]
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  Posted: May 22, 2016 3:33 PM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy wrote :
We could say the same about DirectX or the Windows GUI, other wise
how FMX could exist.

AFAIK, FMX can use several technologies, not just DirectX.

Yes, we agree that switching to OpenGL for rendering doesn't make it none
native to win32
Markus Humm

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Re: Price increase? [Edit]
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  Posted: May 23, 2016 12:21 PM   in response to: Gilbert Padilla in response to: Gilbert Padilla
Am 23.05.2016 um 00:33 schrieb Gilbert Padilla:
Rudy wrote :
We could say the same about DirectX or the Windows GUI, other wise
how FMX could exist.

AFAIK, FMX can use several technologies, not just DirectX.

Yes, we agree that switching to OpenGL for rendering doesn't make it none
native to win32

Hello,

it can use GDI+ afaik as well.

Greetings

Markus
Christopher Burke

Posts: 580
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Re: Price increase? [Edit]
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  Posted: May 22, 2016 7:14 PM   in response to: Gilbert Padilla in response to: Gilbert Padilla
Gilbert Padilla wrote:

Christopher Burke wrote:
.NET requires .NET infrastructure, which isn't always part of
Windows installs.

Certainly isn't part of most of our target machines.

We could say the same about DirectX or the Windows GUI, other wise
how FMX could exist.

Indeed, but last time I checked - you didn't need DirextX in every
single application.

QT, JVM, .Net etc - are all required for their respective systems.
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: Price increase? [Edit]
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  Posted: May 22, 2016 4:48 AM   in response to: Gilbert Padilla in response to: Gilbert Padilla
Gilbert Padilla wrote:

I can write a Firemonkey application (EXE) that runs on Win32 can't
I?

That means it is Win32 native. It requires no other infrastructure
other than Win32 to run.

Then any .NET application do not need any other infrastructure to run
on windows, .NET is part of windows.

Not of all Windows.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"The people who have really made history are the martyrs."
-- Aleister Crowley
Markus Humm

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Re: Price increase? [Edit]
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  Posted: May 17, 2016 10:25 AM   in response to: Gilbert Padilla in response to: Gilbert Padilla
Am 17.05.2016 um 07:33 schrieb Gilbert Padilla:
Christopher Burke wrote:
Yes and Windows 32 GUI Library uses GDI, GDI+, DirectX..... so is the
same concept

GDI, GDI+, DirectX area all part of Win32 native.

So Firemonkey Applications are not Win32 native, also OpenGL is not native
either

Why?
O)n some of the supported platforms some of the controls can be switched
into a "une the native OS one" mode. Afaik Win32 has a few of them already.

Greetings

Markus
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: Price increase? [Edit]
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  Posted: May 18, 2016 12:23 AM   in response to: Gilbert Padilla in response to: Gilbert Padilla
Gilbert Padilla wrote:

Christopher Burke wrote:
Yes and Windows 32 GUI Library uses GDI, GDI+, DirectX..... so is
the same concept

GDI, GDI+, DirectX area all part of Win32 native.

So Firemonkey Applications are not Win32 native, also OpenGL is not
native either

Of course they are. Native, in this context, means that they produce
machine code that runs directly on the hardware, not some intermediate
code. Also, it does not need a managed environment to run in.

Don't confuse native code and native controls.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"To err is human -- and to blame it on a computer is even more
so." -- Robert Orben.
Gilbert Padilla

Posts: 315
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Re: Price increase? [Edit]
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  Posted: May 18, 2016 8:40 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy Velthuis:
Of course they are. Native, in this context, means that they produce
machine code that runs directly on the hardware, not some intermediate
code. Also, it does not need a managed environment to run in.

Don't confuse native code and native controls.

some how real native machine code should run without an OS that manage the
hardware components, I guess.
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: Price increase? [Edit]
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  Posted: May 22, 2016 11:28 PM   in response to: Gilbert Padilla in response to: Gilbert Padilla
Gilbert Padilla wrote:

Don't confuse native code and native controls.

some how real native machine code should run without an OS that
manage the hardware components, I guess.

That's a silly argument, sorry.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Real stupidity beats artificial intelligence every time."
-- Terry Pratchett (Hogfather)
Gilbert Padilla

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Re: Price increase? [Edit]
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  Posted: May 23, 2016 10:12 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy wrote: 0

Explain why a super loop architecture is native?
Markus Humm

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Re: Price increase? [Edit]
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  Posted: May 23, 2016 12:22 PM   in response to: Gilbert Padilla in response to: Gilbert Padilla
Am 23.05.2016 um 19:12 schrieb Gilbert Padilla:
Rudy wrote: 0

Explain why a super loop architecture is native?

What is a super loop architecture?
I'm just curious and too lazy tonight to look it up. ;-)

Greetings

Markus
Gilbert Padilla

Posts: 315
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Re: Price increase? [Edit]
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  Posted: May 23, 2016 8:02 PM   in response to: Markus Humm in response to: Markus Humm
Markus Humm wrote:
What is a super loop architecture?
I'm just curious and too lazy tonight to look it up. ;-)

It's a simple architecture that would not depend on an OS ;-)
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: Price increase? [Edit]
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  Posted: May 25, 2016 2:22 PM   in response to: Gilbert Padilla in response to: Gilbert Padilla
Gilbert Padilla wrote:

Markus Humm wrote:
What is a super loop architecture?
I'm just curious and too lazy tonight to look it up. ;-)

It's a simple architecture that would not depend on an OS ;-)

Huh?

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"There are two ways of constructing a software design. One
way is to make it so simple that there are obviously no
deficiencies. And the other way is to make it so complicated
that there are no obvious deficiencies.”
-- C.A.R. Hoare
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: Price increase? [Edit]
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  Posted: May 25, 2016 2:22 PM   in response to: Gilbert Padilla in response to: Gilbert Padilla
Gilbert Padilla wrote:

Rudy wrote: 0

I wrote more than that.

Explain why a super loop architecture is native?

Explain what you mean with a super loop architecture.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"If the lessons of history teach us anything it is that nobody
learns the lessons that history teaches us."
Markus Humm

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Re: Price increase? [Edit]
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  Posted: May 18, 2016 9:37 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Am 18.05.2016 um 09:23 schrieb Rudy Velthuis (TeamB):
Gilbert Padilla wrote:

Christopher Burke wrote:
Yes and Windows 32 GUI Library uses GDI, GDI+, DirectX..... so is
the same concept

GDI, GDI+, DirectX area all part of Win32 native.

So Firemonkey Applications are not Win32 native, also OpenGL is not
native either

Of course they are. Native, in this context, means that they produce
machine code that runs directly on the hardware, not some intermediate
code. Also, it does not need a managed environment to run in.

Don't confuse native code and native controls.

Simple Rudy: don't write native without specifying it further ;-)
Then it can't get confused. ;-)

Greetings

Markus
Gilbert Padilla

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Re: Price increase? [Edit]
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  Posted: May 18, 2016 1:33 PM   in response to: Markus Humm in response to: Markus Humm
Markus Humm wrote:
Simple Rudy: don't write native without specifying it further ;-)
Then it can't get confused. ;-)

Yeah, it just looks like scramble eggs
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: Price increase? [Edit]
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  Posted: May 22, 2016 11:30 PM   in response to: Markus Humm in response to: Markus Humm
Markus Humm wrote:

Don't confuse native code and native controls.

Simple Rudy: don't write native without specifying it further ;-)
Then it can't get confused. ;-)

If I write "green", people know through the context that I either mean
the colour or the political current. I never had to qualify it further.
If people don't know the difference, too bad for them.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"I have yet to meet a C compiler that is more friendly and easier
to use than eating soup with a knife." -- unknown
Gilbert Padilla

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  Posted: May 23, 2016 10:15 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy wrote:
If I write "green", people know through the context that I either mean
the colour or the political current.

or the US currency, when the discussion is about "Prices".
Rudy Velthuis (...


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  Posted: May 25, 2016 2:22 PM   in response to: Gilbert Padilla in response to: Gilbert Padilla
Gilbert Padilla wrote:

Rudy wrote:
If I write "green", people know through the context that I either
mean the colour or the political current.

or the US currency, when the discussion is about "Prices".

Indeed.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Style distinguishes excellence from accomplishment."
-- James Coplien
Markus Humm

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  Posted: May 23, 2016 12:24 PM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Am 23.05.2016 um 08:30 schrieb Rudy (TeamB):
Markus Humm wrote:

Don't confuse native code and native controls.

Simple Rudy: don't write native without specifying it further ;-)
Then it can't get confused. ;-)

If I write "green", people know through the context that I either mean
the colour or the political current. I never had to qualify it further.
If people don't know the difference, too bad for them.

You could afaik also mean the lawn golf is being played on.
And I guess if we look closely enough we find even more meanings of that
word. Why is it too hard to fully qualify it by addinng a short word to
it? Avoids quite a lot of discussions and is easy to do.

Greetings

Markus
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: Price increase? [Edit]
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  Posted: May 25, 2016 2:23 PM   in response to: Markus Humm in response to: Markus Humm
Markus Humm wrote:

You could afaik also mean the lawn golf is being played on.

Indeed. Thanks for making my argument. <g>
--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Chaos Theory is a new theory invented by scientists panicked
by the thought that the public were beginning to understand
the old ones." -- Mike Barfield.
Markus Humm

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  Posted: May 28, 2016 9:27 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Am 25.05.2016 um 23:23 schrieb Rudy (TeamB):
Markus Humm wrote:

You could afaik also mean the lawn golf is being played on.

Indeed. Thanks for making my argument. <g>

So Rudy is going to be precise in the future by always adding the right
specifiers when writing things which some folks (not necessarily Rudy
himself) might be able to misinterpret it otherwise. That's great! ;-)

Greetings

Markus
Quentin Correll


Posts: 2,412
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Re: Price increase? [Edit]
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  Posted: May 28, 2016 11:05 AM   in response to: Markus Humm in response to: Markus Humm
Markus,

| So Rudy is going to be precise in the future by always adding the
| right specifiers when writing things which some folks (not
| necessarily Rudy himself) might be able to misinterpret it otherwise.
| That's great! ;-)

Don't hold your breath. ;-)

--

Q -- XanaNews 1.19.1.372 - 2016-05-28 11:05:03
Markus Humm

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  Posted: May 29, 2016 2:37 AM   in response to: Quentin Correll in response to: Quentin Correll
Am 28.05.2016 um 20:05 schrieb Quentin Correll:
Markus,

| So Rudy is going to be precise in the future by always adding the
| right specifiers when writing things which some folks (not
| necessarily Rudy himself) might be able to misinterpret it otherwise.
| That's great! ;-)

Don't hold your breath. ;-)

No, I won't. But doing what I suggest would things improve and cut down
a few unnecessary conversations.

Greetings

Markus
Rudy Velthuis (...


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  Posted: May 30, 2016 12:16 AM   in response to: Markus Humm in response to: Markus Humm
Markus Humm wrote:

Am 25.05.2016 um 23:23 schrieb Rudy (TeamB):
Markus Humm wrote:

You could afaik also mean the lawn golf is being played on.

Indeed. Thanks for making my argument. <g>

So Rudy is going to be precise in the future

Only if that is necessary. Here, it wasn't. There will always be people
who don't get the full picture. Sorry for them.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Computers are useless. They can only give you answers."
-- Pablo Picasso
Markus Humm

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  Posted: May 31, 2016 6:08 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Am 30.05.2016 um 09:16 schrieb Rudy (TeamB):
Markus Humm wrote:

Am 25.05.2016 um 23:23 schrieb Rudy (TeamB):
Markus Humm wrote:

You could afaik also mean the lawn golf is being played on.

Indeed. Thanks for making my argument. <g>

So Rudy is going to be precise in the future

Only if that is necessary. Here, it wasn't. There will always be people
who don't get the full picture.

Wrong: just because you have a different view it's not that they don't
get the full picture. If the picture can be misunderstood it can and
will. But if you're not willing to do so little for making things 100%
precise and clear (and no: just because this is an EMBT forum not
everybody is discussing things from the EMBT marketing view point on!)
that's bad. But if it generates unnecessary discussions it's not because
of me.

Greetings

Markus
Rudy Velthuis (...


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  Posted: May 31, 2016 7:36 AM   in response to: Markus Humm in response to: Markus Humm
Markus Humm wrote:

Am 30.05.2016 um 09:16 schrieb Rudy (TeamB):
Markus Humm wrote:

Am 25.05.2016 um 23:23 schrieb Rudy (TeamB):
Markus Humm wrote:

You could afaik also mean the lawn golf is being played on.

Indeed. Thanks for making my argument. <g>

So Rudy is going to be precise in the future

Only if that is necessary. Here, it wasn't. There will always be
people who don't get the full picture.

Wrong: just because you have a different view it's not that they don't
get the full picture.

<sigh>

This is not a matter of view, this is a matter of definition. If people
don't understand the difference between native components and native
compilation, that is their problem.

If the context is native compilation, then the word "native", if not
specified otherwise, does of course refer to native compilation.

If people don't get this, then they obviously don't get the picture.
This is not a matter of point of view, period.
--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Measuring programming progress by lines of code is like
measuring aircraft building progress by weight."
-- Bill Gates
Markus Humm

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  Posted: May 31, 2016 12:32 PM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Am 31.05.2016 um 16:36 schrieb Rudy (TeamB):


<sigh>

<yes, sigh!>


This is not a matter of view, this is a matter of definition. If people
don't understand the difference between native components and native
compilation, that is their problem.

If the context is native compilation, then the word "native", if not
specified otherwise, does of course refer to native compilation.

But that context is often not spelled out clearly enoug in the first
place and then it creates confusion. Just properly spell it out in the
first post and things will run smooth.

What I'm after is: just because EMBT marketing is so keen on native
compilation not every poster starting a thread here must also mean that
when just refering to "native" instead of "native <specifyier>".
And that is a point of view.

Greetings

Markus
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: Price increase? [Edit]
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  Posted: Jun 1, 2016 3:00 AM   in response to: Markus Humm in response to: Markus Humm
Markus Humm wrote:

If the context is native compilation, then the word "native", if not
specified otherwise, does of course refer to native compilation.

But that context is often not spelled out clearly enoug in the first
place

Usually, it is. People don't start talking about native controls if the
topic is native compilation, unless they have absolutely no clue. Their
problem.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"If you give me six lines written by the hand of the most
honest of men, I will find something in them which will hang
him."
-- Cardinal Richelieu

Joseph Mitzen

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Re: Price increase? [Edit]
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  Posted: May 14, 2016 10:00 PM   in response to: Christopher Burke in response to: Christopher Burke
Christopher Burke wrote:
Cesar Romero wrote:

Christopher Burke wrote:
What you mean by "native win32"?

Runs directly on win32 without additional support infrastructure.


You keep insisting Qt is some sort of managed framework; it's not. Do yourself a favor - download Google Earth and install it if you don't have it already. Google Earth is written with Qt and runs on Linux, OS X and Windows. Try it and then maybe you'll believe it.
Christopher Burke

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  Posted: May 14, 2016 10:43 PM   in response to: Joseph Mitzen in response to: Joseph Mitzen
Joseph Mitzen wrote:

You keep insisting Qt is some sort of managed framework;

No, that's why I distinguished Java and .NEt from QT.

However - it is a non-native binary framework. That's the issue.

The question remains - can you create a "Hello world" in QT and deploy
as a single EXE ?

Or in other words, can an Executable run at all in the native operating
system?
Friedrich Weste...

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  Posted: May 15, 2016 12:55 AM   in response to: Christopher Burke in response to: Christopher Burke
Christopher Burke <newsgroups at craznar dot com> wrote:


The question remains - can you create a "Hello world" in QT and deploy
as a single EXE ?

Or in other words, can an Executable run at all in the native operating
system?

https://wiki.qt.io/Build_Standalone_Qt_Application_for_Windows
Rudy Velthuis (...


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  Posted: May 15, 2016 7:11 PM   in response to: Friedrich Weste... in response to: Friedrich Weste...
Friedrich Westermann wrote:

Christopher Burke <newsgroups at craznar dot com> wrote:


The question remains - can you create a "Hello world" in QT and
deploy as a single EXE ?

Or in other words, can an Executable run at all in the native
operating system?

https://wiki.qt.io/Build_Standalone_Qt_Application_for_Windows

In other words: no, not out of the box. You will have to find a
compiler that can recompile Qt to static libraries to which you can
link your code.

This is a trick, like, say, hosting FMX forms in a VCL page. It is
possible, but not out of the box and not without quite some extra work
or some clever extra-library.

Quote:
"Please note that reconfiguring and building Qt is a time consuming
procedure. The duration may vary depending on the hardware of your
computer."

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"You get what anyone gets; you get a lifetime."
-- Death, Neil Gaiman Comic Sandman
Jan Martin Pett...

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  Posted: May 15, 2016 9:24 PM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:
Friedrich Westermann wrote:

Christopher Burke <newsgroups at craznar dot com> wrote:


The question remains - can you create a "Hello world" in QT and
deploy as a single EXE ?

Or in other words, can an Executable run at all in the native
operating system?

https://wiki.qt.io/Build_Standalone_Qt_Application_for_Windows

In other words: no, not out of the box. You will have to find a
compiler that can recompile Qt to static libraries to which you can
link your code.

This is a trick, like, say, hosting FMX forms in a VCL page. It is
possible, but not out of the box and not without quite some extra work
or some clever extra-library.

Quote:
"Please note that reconfiguring and building Qt is a time consuming
procedure. The duration may vary depending on the hardware of your
computer."

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"You get what anyone gets; you get a lifetime."
-- Death, Neil Gaiman Comic Sandman
Find? Mingw isn't hard to find.. I'd say that one is more or less readily available to anyone.

Trick? If that is a trick, the same "trick" applies to just about every static-linked C/C++
application ever released.

You or somebody else (such as Embarcadero) would have to build the static libraries before
someone can use them to make the static-linked application.
The dynamically linked thingies was the "trick" a decade or three ago.
So, not really a trick.

But yes, some initial work would be required.

Btw, I haven't really tested QT myself, but Wikipedia says it written in C++, so...

Edited by: Jan Martin Pettersen on May 16, 2016 5:34 AM
Markus Humm

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  Posted: May 16, 2016 12:23 AM   in response to: Jan Martin Pett... in response to: Jan Martin Pett...
Am 16.05.2016 um 06:34 schrieb Jan Martin Pettersen:

Find? Mingw isn't hard to find.. I'd say that one is more or less readily available to anyone.

Trick? If that is a trick, the same "trick" applies to just about every static-linked C/C++
application ever released.

You or somebody else (such as Embarcadero) would have to build the static libraries before
someone can use them to make the static-linked application.
The dynamically linked thingies was the "trick" a decade or three ago.
So, not really a trick.

But yes, some initial work would be required.

That's the difference I think between such an integration delivered out
of the box by the vendor and between the user needing to fetch and
combine several tools on his own. It costs his time and it's often more
error prone than an integrated out of the box solution.

Greetings

Markus
Jan Martin Pett...

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  Posted: May 16, 2016 1:00 AM   in response to: Markus Humm in response to: Markus Humm
Markus Humm wrote:
Am 16.05.2016 um 06:34 schrieb Jan Martin Pettersen:

Find? Mingw isn't hard to find.. I'd say that one is more or less readily available to anyone.

Trick? If that is a trick, the same "trick" applies to just about every static-linked C/C++
application ever released.

You or somebody else (such as Embarcadero) would have to build the static libraries before
someone can use them to make the static-linked application.
The dynamically linked thingies was the "trick" a decade or three ago.
So, not really a trick.

But yes, some initial work would be required.

That's the difference I think between such an integration delivered out
of the box by the vendor and between the user needing to fetch and
combine several tools on his own. It costs his time and it's often more
error prone than an integrated out of the box solution.

Greetings

Markus
Yes, that is more or less what it boils down to.
However, it may be time/cost/whatever-saving in the long run..or not.

Thankfully, libraries for just about any language quite often comes with some kind of guide to how to
build them, but it is undoubtedly a bit more error-prone than a ready-made solution anyway.
It is the difference between premade and not, whether it is c++ libraries or burgers.
Rudy Velthuis (...


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  Posted: May 17, 2016 8:28 AM   in response to: Jan Martin Pett... in response to: Jan Martin Pett...
Jan Martin Pettersen wrote:

Markus Humm wrote:
Am 16.05.2016 um 06:34 schrieb Jan Martin Pettersen:

Find? Mingw isn't hard to find.. I'd say that one is more or less
readily available to anyone.

Trick? If that is a trick, the same "trick" applies to just about
every static-linked C/C++ application ever released.

You or somebody else (such as Embarcadero) would have to build
the static libraries before someone can use them to make the
static-linked application. The dynamically linked thingies was
the "trick" a decade or three ago. So, not really a trick.

But yes, some initial work would be required.

That's the difference I think between such an integration delivered
out of the box by the vendor and between the user needing to fetch
and combine several tools on his own. It costs his time and it's
often more error prone than an integrated out of the box solution.

Greetings

Markus
Yes, that is more or less what it boils down to.
However, it may be time/cost/whatever-saving in the long run..or not.

Thankfully, libraries for just about any language quite often comes
with some kind of guide to how to build them

Yes, but it should not be necessary. Fortunately, in Delphi, you don't
have to.
--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"I've just learned about his illness. Let's hope it's nothing
trivial." -- Irvin S. Cobb
Rudy Velthuis (...


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  Posted: May 17, 2016 8:28 AM   in response to: Markus Humm in response to: Markus Humm
Markus Humm wrote:

But yes, some initial work would be required.

That's the difference I think between such an integration delivered
out of the box by the vendor and between the user needing to fetch and
combine several tools on his own. It costs his time and it's often
more error prone than an integrated out of the box solution.

Exactly. It is a bit like modifying and then recompiling FMX or the VCL.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and
the intelligent are full of doubt."
-- Bertrand Russell
Rudy Velthuis (...


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  Posted: May 17, 2016 8:28 AM   in response to: Jan Martin Pett... in response to: Jan Martin Pett...
Jan Martin Pettersen wrote:

In other words: no, not out of the box. You will have to find a
compiler that can recompile Qt to static libraries to which you can
link your code.

This is a trick, like, say, hosting FMX forms in a VCL page. It is
possible, but not out of the box and not without quite some extra
work or some clever extra-library.

Find? Mingw isn't hard to find.. I'd say that one is more or less
readily available to anyone.

You'll have to get it first.

Trick? If that is a trick, the same "trick" applies to just about
every static-linked C/C++ application ever released.

You don't have to rebuild entire libraries to do static linking. So
yes, it is a trick, like the one with FMX I mentioned. This is
something a clever user devised, it is not something that comes with Qt.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Don't let it end like this. Tell them I said something."
-- last words of Pancho Villa (1877-1923)
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  Posted: May 15, 2016 7:07 PM   in response to: Joseph Mitzen in response to: Joseph Mitzen
Joseph Mitzen wrote:

You keep insisting Qt is some sort of managed framework; it's not. Do
yourself a favor - download Google Earth and install it if you don't
have it already. Google Earth is written with Qt and runs on Linux,
OS X and Windows. Try it and then maybe you'll believe it.

Hoe does that show it is not a managed framework? Java is a managed
framework and it runs on many platforms.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Plato was a bore."
-- Friedrich Nietzsche (1844-1900)
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  Posted: May 11, 2016 5:33 AM   in response to: Cesar Romero in response to: Cesar Romero
Cesar Romero wrote:

Christopher Burke wrote:


Ok, it doesn't really support native Win32 (i.e you can't compile a
native win32 EXE to distrubute).

What you mean by "native win32"?

Native Win32, as opposed to .NET on Win32, or Java on Win32, etc.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"It is part of the general pattern of misguided policy that our
country is now geared to an arms economy which was bred in an
artificially induced psychosis of war hysteria and nurtured
upon an incessant propaganda of fear."
-- General Douglas MacArthur

Cesar Romero


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  Posted: May 13, 2016 9:59 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:

Native Win32, as opposed to .NET on Win32, or Java on Win32, etc.

Very interesting that you know what he considere native or not.
My question was because I found his opinion controversial.

[]s

Cesar Romero

Christopher Burke

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  Posted: May 14, 2016 1:01 AM   in response to: Cesar Romero in response to: Cesar Romero
Cesar Romero wrote:

Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:

Native Win32, as opposed to .NET on Win32, or Java on Win32, etc.

Very interesting that you know what he considere native or not.

Native means you target a platform.

So Native Java means you target a Java VM
Native .Net means you target a .NET 'VM'.

Native Win32 means you target a Win32 machine. VCL does this.

QT does not. QT targets a QT machine, now luckily you can get QT for a
number of platforms (as you can get .NET, Java etc).

It isn't rocket surgery :)
Joseph Mitzen

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  Posted: May 14, 2016 9:57 PM   in response to: Christopher Burke in response to: Christopher Burke
Christopher Burke wrote:
Dimitrij Kowalski wrote:

Either way - it isn't any match for what Delphi does.

Have you ever used Qt? It's more than a match for what Delphi does. It also does more, such as targeting embedded devices and real-time operating systems for same.
Christopher Burke

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  Posted: May 14, 2016 10:41 PM   in response to: Joseph Mitzen in response to: Joseph Mitzen
Joseph Mitzen wrote:

Christopher Burke wrote:
Dimitrij Kowalski wrote:

Either way - it isn't any match for what Delphi does.

Have you ever used Qt?

Yes... but a long time ago. Deployment was a huge problem on Linux.
Never tried any significant Windows deployment.
Rudy Velthuis (...


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  Posted: May 17, 2016 8:28 AM   in response to: Christopher Burke in response to: Christopher Burke
Christopher Burke wrote:

Joseph Mitzen wrote:

Christopher Burke wrote:
Dimitrij Kowalski wrote:

Either way - it isn't any match for what Delphi does.

Have you ever used Qt?

Yes... but a long time ago. Deployment was a huge problem on Linux.
Never tried any significant Windows deployment.

Using Qt also means you must do soe extra passes to generate the
meta-code, i.e. the code that a normal compiler can't generate. This is
done more or less transparently by the tools, but the entire
signal/slot thing is a bit of a an inelegant kludge. Events are much,
much more elegant.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Happiness is your dentist telling you it won't hurt and then
having him catch his hand in the drill." -- Johnny Carson
Raul Sinimae

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  Posted: May 9, 2016 10:57 AM   in response to: Christopher Burke in response to: Christopher Burke
Christopher Burke wrote:
Xamarain: Doesn't do desktop native (e.g. Win32 or OSX)

No but you would also have full Visual Studio which can target pretty much everything there is on windows (in one form or another).

If you already know delphi then it's an interesting proposition but otherwise IMHO it's a tricky sell - specially for developers starting out with a concept (and no income yet) price is a significant roadblock.

Raul
Christopher Burke

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  Posted: May 9, 2016 6:43 PM   in response to: Raul Sinimae in response to: Raul Sinimae
Raul Sinimae wrote:

Christopher Burke wrote:
Xamarain: Doesn't do desktop native (e.g. Win32 or OSX)

No but you would also have full Visual Studio which can target pretty
much everything there is on windows (in one form or another).

Which Visual studio language targets all platform - just out of
curiousity ?
Raul Sinimae

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  Posted: May 10, 2016 6:01 AM   in response to: Christopher Burke in response to: Christopher Burke
Which Visual studio language targets all platform - just out of
curiousity ?

C# for one

VS with Xamarin (full features included in the free edition) can target Windows, iOS, Android and Mac. Windows mobile is supported and VS also lets you do web development on MS stack (latter two not in delphi today).

Monodevelop can target linux, mac and windows - alternate IDE at this point but very similar to VS and has linux support today.

Delphi provides a good integrated solution but cost is one of the barriers for somebody not profitable today with new project.

Raul
Christopher Burke

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  Posted: May 10, 2016 6:51 AM   in response to: Raul Sinimae in response to: Raul Sinimae
Raul Sinimae wrote:

Which Visual studio language targets all platform - just out of
curiousity ?

C# for one

I couldn't find any native C# compilation in Visual Studio targetting
Win32/Win64/OSX/Android and iOS.

Seemed to be all .NET based.
Cesar Romero


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  Posted: May 10, 2016 7:17 AM   in response to: Christopher Burke in response to: Christopher Burke
Christopher Burke wrote:

I couldn't find any native C# compilation in Visual Studio targetting
Win32/Win64/OSX/Android and iOS.

Seemed to be all .NET based.

That is the .NET Native compilation, the language is not important.

https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/dn600165(v=vs.110).aspx
https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/dn584397(v=vs.110).aspx
https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/dn807190(v=vs.110).aspx

You develop for .NET, the code will be compiled for intermediate format.

.NET Native, is a step done after compile for intermediate format, kind
of what Delphi does with .DCU, and then linking with dependencies (the
.net libraries).

For generic .NET, when the application run in the customer machine for
the first time, the JIT compiler will recompile the intermediate format
to optimize for the current processor.

Regards,

Cesar Romero

Christopher Burke

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  Posted: May 10, 2016 10:01 PM   in response to: Cesar Romero in response to: Cesar Romero
Cesar Romero wrote:

Christopher Burke wrote:

I couldn't find any native C# compilation in Visual Studio
targetting Win32/Win64/OSX/Android and iOS.

Seemed to be all .NET based.

That is the .NET Native compilation, the language is not important.


Yeah - but .NET isn't native Win32.

Matter of fact, .NET Executables won't even run on the vast majority of
our Windows targets. They don't have .NET.
Joseph Mitzen

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  Posted: May 14, 2016 10:07 PM   in response to: Christopher Burke in response to: Christopher Burke
Christopher Burke wrote:

Matter of fact, .NET Executables won't even run on the vast majority of
our Windows targets. They don't have .NET.

What are you targeting?!?!?!? Embedded devices?
Christopher Burke

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  Posted: May 14, 2016 10:38 PM   in response to: Joseph Mitzen in response to: Joseph Mitzen
Joseph Mitzen wrote:

Christopher Burke wrote:

Matter of fact, .NET Executables won't even run on the vast
majority of our Windows targets. They don't have .NET.

What are you targeting?!?!?!? Embedded devices?

Effectively ... POSReady point of sale terminals.
Gilbert Padilla

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  Posted: May 15, 2016 4:15 PM   in response to: Christopher Burke in response to: Christopher Burke
Yu can do that with DOS/32, TurboVision or Technojocks graphical interfaces.
Rudy Velthuis (...


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  Posted: May 17, 2016 8:28 AM   in response to: Gilbert Padilla in response to: Gilbert Padilla
Gilbert Padilla wrote:

Yu can do that with DOS/32, TurboVision or Technojocks graphical
interfaces.

<sarcasm>
Sure, or with Turbo Pascal.
</sarcasm>

I think that most POS can run Windows, these days.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"The tongue is ever turning to the aching tooth."
-- Thomas Fuller
Markus Humm

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  Posted: May 17, 2016 10:27 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Am 17.05.2016 um 17:28 schrieb Rudy Velthuis (TeamB):
Gilbert Padilla wrote:

Yu can do that with DOS/32, TurboVision or Technojocks graphical
interfaces.

<sarcasm>
Sure, or with Turbo Pascal.
</sarcasm>

I think that most POS can run Windows, these days.

TurboVision was based on Turbo pascal (ok, afaik there existed a C++
version of it as well). And if you have some Turbo Vision app you want
to have as graphicsl GUI: there was GraphicsVision by some other author
which mimicked the API but provided graphics.

Greetings

Markus
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  Posted: May 18, 2016 12:19 AM   in response to: Markus Humm in response to: Markus Humm
Markus Humm wrote:

Am 17.05.2016 um 17:28 schrieb Rudy Velthuis (TeamB):
Gilbert Padilla wrote:

Yu can do that with DOS/32, TurboVision or Technojocks graphical
interfaces.

<sarcasm>
Sure, or with Turbo Pascal.
</sarcasm>

I think that most POS can run Windows, these days.

TurboVision was based on Turbo pascal (ok, afaik there existed a C++
version of it as well). And if you have some Turbo Vision app you want
to have as graphicsl GUI: there was GraphicsVision by some other
author which mimicked the API but provided graphics.

I know TV. I have written programs with it, in the DOS days, using TP6
and BP7.
--
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"Never express yourself more clearly than you think."
-- Neils Bohr
Raul Sinimae

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  Posted: May 10, 2016 1:55 PM   in response to: Christopher Burke in response to: Christopher Burke
Christopher Burke wrote:
I couldn't find any native C# compilation in Visual Studio targetting
Win32/Win64/OSX/Android and iOS.
Seemed to be all .NET based.

That is correct. It also means you get all the language constructs that exist in c# and .net .

Native IMHO provides little direct benefit that i have seen and outside of embarcadero marketing is not a feature that anybody seems to care about. On windows i would argue that FM is not native - that would be VCL.

Delphi value is single RAD approach for multiple platforms - FM that makes it happen can also result in in some liabilities (in terms of accessing what one would call platform native aspects including native controls ,libraries etc).

If you're an existing delphi user with profitable product line then delphi mobile makes sense to look at. However if you're not then alternatives have heck a easier barrier of entry.

Raul
Christopher Burke

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  Posted: May 10, 2016 10:02 PM   in response to: Raul Sinimae in response to: Raul Sinimae
Raul Sinimae wrote:

Christopher Burke wrote:
I couldn't find any native C# compilation in Visual Studio
targetting Win32/Win64/OSX/Android and iOS.
Seemed to be all .NET based.

That is correct. It also means you get all the language constructs
that exist in c# and .net .

But you don't get native Win32/Win64/OsX/iOS/Android targetting which
was the point of my comment.
Raul Sinimae

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  Posted: May 11, 2016 5:36 AM   in response to: Christopher Burke in response to: Christopher Burke
Christopher Burke wrote:
But you don't get native Win32/Win64/OsX/iOS/Android targetting which
was the point of my comment.

If that's something that you have found as a benefit to you and your customers then that is fantastic.

Delphi+VCL is still great but once you go multi-platform the native aspect does not appear to add value - we have found no interest from customers or other developers when talking about native dev (yes, small subset of populace but other tools come up lot more often).

RAD multi-platform aspect of delphi IMHO is the the key valuable feature here.

It gets people interested but price is a problem if goal is to get more new developers to the platform.

Raul
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  Posted: May 15, 2016 11:17 AM   in response to: Raul Sinimae in response to: Raul Sinimae
Raul Sinimae wrote:

Christopher Burke wrote:
But you don't get native Win32/Win64/OsX/iOS/Android targetting
which was the point of my comment.

If that's something that you have found as a benefit to you and your
customers then that is fantastic.

It means you can have standalone executables that do not rely on the
installation of something like .NET or Mono. That is indeed fantastic
ans quite a big benefit, in several respects.

It is exactly what Delphi provides and other languages don't.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"The Six Phases of a Project:"
o Enthusiasm
o Disillusionment
o Panic
o Search for the Guilty
o Punishment of the Innocent
o Praise for non-participants"
Asbjørn Heid

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  Posted: May 15, 2016 3:26 PM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:

It means you can have standalone executables that do not rely on the
installation of something like .NET or Mono.

By that definition, the majority of Visual C++ applications are "not native"...

Doesn't seem like a good definition.

- Asbjørn
Rudy Velthuis (...


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  Posted: May 15, 2016 7:21 PM   in response to: Asbjørn Heid in response to: Asbjørn Heid
Asbjørn Heid wrote:

Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:

It means you can have standalone executables that do not rely on the
installation of something like .NET or Mono.

By that definition, the majority of Visual C++ applications are "not
native"...

Indeed. Most of them are managed .NET applications, or at least rely on
.NET.

That is one of the big advantages that Delphi has over the competition:
native compilation to all platforms it supports.
--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Whatever is begun in anger ends in shame."
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Asbjørn Heid

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Re: Price increase? [Edit]
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  Posted: May 16, 2016 3:22 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:
Asbjørn Heid wrote:

Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:

It means you can have standalone executables that do not rely on the
installation of something like .NET or Mono.

By that definition, the majority of Visual C++ applications are "not
native"...

Indeed. Most of them are managed .NET applications, or at least rely on
.NET.

Not at all. I meant of course all the pure C++ applications which rely on the MSVC runtime libraries.

Your definition would classify Delphi apps using BPLs as non-native as well.

- Asbjørn
Markus Humm

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Re: Price increase? [Edit]
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  Posted: May 16, 2016 9:16 AM   in response to: Asbjørn Heid in response to: Asbjørn Heid
Am 16.05.2016 um 12:22 schrieb Asbjørn Heid:
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:
Asbjørn Heid wrote:

Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:

It means you can have standalone executables that do not rely on the
installation of something like .NET or Mono.

By that definition, the majority of Visual C++ applications are "not
native"...

Indeed. Most of them are managed .NET applications, or at least rely on
.NET.

Not at all. I meant of course all the pure C++ applications which rely on the MSVC runtime libraries.

Your definition would classify Delphi apps using BPLs as non-native as well.

- Asbjørn

That's once again a case of CPU native vs. plattform native. BPLs can
still be both, if they do use the Win32 API provided GUI controls and
are compiled for Intel x86/x64 CPU code.

But I doubt that this kind of discussion will provide much new insight
to most of us...

Greetings

Markus
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: Price increase? [Edit]
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  Posted: May 17, 2016 8:28 AM   in response to: Markus Humm in response to: Markus Humm
Markus Humm wrote:

That's once again a case of CPU native vs. plattform native.

Indeed. I mean CPU native, i.e. the generated executables are generally
compiled to native machine code (and not some intermediate code) AND do
not require a managed environment to run.

Platform native means that you use CONTROLS that are provided and
supported by the OS. That is something totally different. That can be
done by natively compiled as well as by managed languages. .NET's
WinForms does that. The other libraries not so much.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

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Violets are #0000FF
All my base are belong to you!"
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Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: Price increase? [Edit]
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  Posted: May 17, 2016 8:28 AM   in response to: Asbjørn Heid in response to: Asbjørn Heid
Asbjørn Heid wrote:

Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:
Asbjørn Heid wrote:

Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:

It means you can have standalone executables that do not rely
on the installation of something like .NET or Mono.

By that definition, the majority of Visual C++ applications are
"not native"...

Indeed. Most of them are managed .NET applications, or at least
rely on .NET.

Not at all. I meant of course all the pure C++ applications which
rely on the MSVC runtime libraries.

Oh indeed, but MSVC products are not managed, hence native. .NET is not
native, nor is Java and its VM.

Your definition would classify Delphi apps using BPLs as non-native
as well.

I am not talking about apps, I am talking about languages. Delphi
produces native apps.

No, because you CAN develop standalone apps too. But Delphi is native
becuse it does not require a managed environment, like e.g. Java or C#.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Nothing exists except atoms and empty space; everything else
is opinion."
-- Democritus
Joseph Mitzen

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Re: Price increase? [Edit]
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  Posted: May 14, 2016 10:08 PM   in response to: Christopher Burke in response to: Christopher Burke
Christopher Burke wrote:
Raul Sinimae wrote:

Christopher Burke wrote:
I couldn't find any native C# compilation in Visual Studio
targetting Win32/Win64/OSX/Android and iOS.
Seemed to be all .NET based.

That is correct. It also means you get all the language constructs
that exist in c# and .net .

But you don't get native Win32/Win64/OsX/iOS/Android targetting which
was the point of my comment.

Your code runs on Windows, OS X, iOS, Android, Linux, probably BSD.
Christopher Burke

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Re: Price increase? [Edit]
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  Posted: May 15, 2016 4:37 AM   in response to: Joseph Mitzen in response to: Joseph Mitzen
Joseph Mitzen wrote:

Your code runs on Windows, OS X, iOS, Android, Linux, probably BSD.

Java, Javascript, Perl and a stack of other things meet that definition.

However - it doesn't make it native Win32.
Van Swofford

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Re: Price increase? [Edit]
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  Posted: May 15, 2016 10:10 AM   in response to: Christopher Burke in response to: Christopher Burke
Christopher Burke wrote:

Joseph Mitzen wrote:

Your code runs on Windows, OS X, iOS, Android, Linux, probably BSD.

Java, Javascript, Perl and a stack of other things meet that
definition.

However - it doesn't make it native Win32.

And your customers have no idea what the words "native Win32" mean, so
what difference does it make?

--
Cheers,
Van

"Good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad
judgment." - Will Rogers
Christopher Burke

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Re: Price increase? [Edit]
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  Posted: May 16, 2016 12:48 AM   in response to: Van Swofford in response to: Van Swofford
Van Swofford wrote:

And your customers have no idea what the words "native Win32" mean, so
what difference does it make?

It makes practical differences to support, and deployment...especially
on the machines we are targetting.
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: Price increase? [Edit]
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  Posted: May 17, 2016 8:28 AM   in response to: Van Swofford in response to: Van Swofford
Van Swofford wrote:

Christopher Burke wrote:

Joseph Mitzen wrote:

Your code runs on Windows, OS X, iOS, Android, Linux, probably
BSD.

Java, Javascript, Perl and a stack of other things meet that
definition.

However - it doesn't make it native Win32.

And your customers have no idea what the words "native Win32" mean, so
what difference does it make?

Embarcadero's customers are programmers, and one would hope that they
do.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Plato was a bore."
-- Friedrich Nietzsche (1844-1900)
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: Price increase? [Edit]
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  Posted: May 17, 2016 8:28 AM   in response to: Christopher Burke in response to: Christopher Burke
Christopher Burke wrote:

Joseph Mitzen wrote:

Your code runs on Windows, OS X, iOS, Android, Linux, probably BSD.

Java, Javascript, Perl and a stack of other things meet that
definition.

However - it doesn't make it native Win32.

Native means that the compiler generates CPU-native machine code, and
not some intermediate code. But it also means that the generated code
DOES NOT NEED a managed environment to run. .NET/Mono and the Java VM
are such managed environments.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"A belligerent state permits itself every such misdeed, every
such act of violence, as would disgrace the individual."
-- Sigmund Freud
Markus Humm

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  Posted: May 17, 2016 10:29 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Am 17.05.2016 um 17:28 schrieb Rudy Velthuis (TeamB):
Christopher Burke wrote:

Joseph Mitzen wrote:

Your code runs on Windows, OS X, iOS, Android, Linux, probably BSD.

Java, Javascript, Perl and a stack of other things meet that
definition.

However - it doesn't make it native Win32.

Native means that the compiler generates CPU-native machine code,

Not necessarily. In EMBT marketing speech yes, but only talking about
native is "error prone" as it can be missinterpreted as "platform
native". Better talk about "CPU native" if you mean it.

Greetings

Markus
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: Price increase? [Edit]
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  Posted: May 18, 2016 12:22 AM   in response to: Markus Humm in response to: Markus Humm
Markus Humm wrote:

Am 17.05.2016 um 17:28 schrieb Rudy Velthuis (TeamB):
Christopher Burke wrote:

Joseph Mitzen wrote:

Your code runs on Windows, OS X, iOS, Android, Linux, probably
BSD.

Java, Javascript, Perl and a stack of other things meet that
definition.

However - it doesn't make it native Win32.

Native means that the compiler generates CPU-native machine code,

Not necessarily. In EMBT marketing speech yes

Not only in Embarcadero marketing speech. That is the generally
accepted meaning of native compilation. The use of the word "native"
for controls is a totally different matter.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

Bible, Dijkstra 5:15
"and the clueless shall spend their time reinventing the wheel
while the elite merely use the Wordstar key mappings"
-- Ed Mulroy

Markus Humm

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  Posted: May 18, 2016 9:38 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Am 18.05.2016 um 09:22 schrieb Rudy Velthuis (TeamB):
Markus Humm wrote:

Am 17.05.2016 um 17:28 schrieb Rudy Velthuis (TeamB):
Christopher Burke wrote:

Joseph Mitzen wrote:

Your code runs on Windows, OS X, iOS, Android, Linux, probably
BSD.

Java, Javascript, Perl and a stack of other things meet that
definition.

However - it doesn't make it native Win32.

Native means that the compiler generates CPU-native machine code,

Not necessarily. In EMBT marketing speech yes

Not only in Embarcadero marketing speech. That is the generally
accepted meaning of native compilation. The use of the word "native"
for controls is a totally different matter.


But it's the same word if not used without any other specifier. It is
a source of confusion if not written along with the specifier "CPU" or
"control". How hard is it to write CPU before it?

Greetings

Markus
Rudy Velthuis (...


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  Posted: May 18, 2016 10:35 AM   in response to: Markus Humm in response to: Markus Humm
Markus Humm wrote:

Am 18.05.2016 um 09:22 schrieb Rudy Velthuis (TeamB):
Markus Humm wrote:

Am 17.05.2016 um 17:28 schrieb Rudy Velthuis (TeamB):
Christopher Burke wrote:

Joseph Mitzen wrote:

Your code runs on Windows, OS X, iOS, Android, Linux, probably
BSD.

Java, Javascript, Perl and a stack of other things meet that
definition.

However - it doesn't make it native Win32.

Native means that the compiler generates CPU-native machine code,

Not necessarily. In EMBT marketing speech yes

Not only in Embarcadero marketing speech. That is the generally
accepted meaning of native compilation. The use of the word "native"
for controls is a totally different matter.


But it's the same word if not used without any other specifier.

Well yes, words can have different meanings in different contexts. That
happens.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"I have often regretted my speech, never my silence."
-- Xenocrates (396-314 B.C.)

Markus Humm

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  Posted: May 19, 2016 9:03 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Am 18.05.2016 um 19:35 schrieb Rudy Velthuis (TeamB):

But it's the same word if not used without any other specifier.

Well yes, words can have different meanings in different contexts. That
happens.


Yes thzat happens. In case of this one it can be avoided by adding the
context defining word CPU or platform, depending on the context.
Isn't hard to do and doesn't need to be further discussed. Just do it! ;-)

Greetings

Markus
Rudy Velthuis (...


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  Posted: May 20, 2016 3:05 AM   in response to: Markus Humm in response to: Markus Humm
Markus Humm wrote:

Am 18.05.2016 um 19:35 schrieb Rudy Velthuis (TeamB):

But it's the same word if not used without any other specifier.

Well yes, words can have different meanings in different contexts.
That happens.


Yes thzat happens. In case of this one it can be avoided by adding the
context defining word CPU or platform

If the context is clear, there is no need for that. Even the
competition recognizes what it means, even if they call it
insignificant (because they don't <g>).

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Secular schools can never be tolerated because such schools
have no religious instruction, and a general moral instruction
without a religious foundation is built on air; consequently,
all character training and religion must be derived from faith
... we need believing people."
-- Adolf Hitler

Markus Humm

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  Posted: May 20, 2016 1:33 PM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Am 20.05.2016 um 12:05 schrieb Rudy Velthuis (TeamB):
Markus Humm wrote:

Am 18.05.2016 um 19:35 schrieb Rudy Velthuis (TeamB):

But it's the same word if not used without any other specifier.

Well yes, words can have different meanings in different contexts.
That happens.


Yes thzat happens. In case of this one it can be avoided by adding the
context defining word CPU or platform

If the context is clear, there is no need for that. Even the
competition recognizes what it means, even if they call it
insignificant (because they don't <g>).


If the context would always be clear parts of this discussion here
wouldn't have happened and this part of the discussion wouldn't have
taken part at all. => just do it, will not do you any harm but avoid
quite some unnecessary discussion.

Greetings

Markus
Rudy Velthuis (...


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  Posted: May 20, 2016 1:50 PM   in response to: Markus Humm in response to: Markus Humm
Markus Humm wrote:

If the context would always be clear parts of this discussion here
wouldn't have happened

The context was and is pretty clear, but some people obviously don't
read very carefully. Their problem, not mine.

Or they don't quite understand the difference between native (machine)
code and managed code that requires a managed environment like
.NET/Mono or the Java VM.

Or they think it is insignificant, which is of course wrong.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"If you are going through hell, keep going."
- Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)
Markus Humm

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Re: Price increase? [Edit]
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  Posted: May 11, 2016 9:37 AM   in response to: Raul Sinimae in response to: Raul Sinimae
Am 10.05.2016 um 22:55 schrieb Raul Sinimae:
Christopher Burke wrote:
I couldn't find any native C# compilation in Visual Studio targetting
Win32/Win64/OSX/Android and iOS.
Seemed to be all .NET based.

That is correct. It also means you get all the language constructs that exist in c# and .net .

Native IMHO provides little direct benefit that i have seen and outside of embarcadero marketing is not a feature that anybody seems to care about. On windows i would argue that FM is not native - that would be VCL.

Ah, somebody starting the old discussion of what native is once again.
Plattform native (like FMX vs. VCL) or CPU native (e.g. DCC32 vs. Java
JVM). ;-)

Greetings

Markus
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: Price increase? [Edit]
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  Posted: May 11, 2016 5:35 AM   in response to: Raul Sinimae in response to: Raul Sinimae
Raul Sinimae wrote:

Which Visual studio language targets all platform - just out of
curiousity ?

C# for one

C# is a managed language, and that means it is not native. There is no
native C# compiler. It requires .NET to run (or Mono, if you wish).

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Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"All religions are founded on the fear of the many and the
cleverness of the few."
-- Stendhal
Raul Sinimae

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Re: Price increase? [Edit]
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  Posted: May 11, 2016 5:56 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:
C# is a managed language, and that means it is not native. There is no
native C# compiler. It requires .NET to run (or Mono, if you wish).

On windows .net native is included in visual studio 2015 which compiles your app down to native.

Xamarin iOS and Android similarly compile down to native (or at least APK runtime on android)..

They all use also native controls on the platforms.

Unless native provides some tangible benefits why does it matter how the tech underneath works ?

I know for us, our customers and developers i talk to it's of little value by itself.

Main value of Delphi IMHO is the RAD multi-platform dev aspect.

Raul
Christopher Burke

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  Posted: May 11, 2016 6:01 AM   in response to: Raul Sinimae in response to: Raul Sinimae
Raul Sinimae wrote:

Main value of Delphi IMHO is the RAD multi-platform dev aspect.

And Win32 native development.
Raul Sinimae

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  Posted: May 11, 2016 6:10 AM   in response to: Christopher Burke in response to: Christopher Burke
Christopher Burke wrote:
And Win32 native development.

Definitely - i was too focused on multi-platform discussion :-)

For us it's the VCL and both Win32/Win64 (latter since we need to load 3rd partly DLLs and almost none are 32-bit anymore).

Raul
Quentin Correll


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  Posted: May 11, 2016 11:22 AM   in response to: Christopher Burke in response to: Christopher Burke
Christopher,

| And Win32 native development.

+1000 !!!

--

Q -- XanaNews 1.19.1.372 - 2016-05-11 11:21:54
Rudy Velthuis (...


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  Posted: May 15, 2016 6:45 PM   in response to: Raul Sinimae in response to: Raul Sinimae
Raul Sinimae wrote:

Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:
C# is a managed language, and that means it is not native. There is
no native C# compiler. It requires .NET to run (or Mono, if you
wish).

On windows .net native

That is an oxymoron. .NET is managed, so it is by definition not native.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"War is hell and all that, but it has a good deal to recommend
it. It wipes out all the small nuisances of peacetime."
-- Ian Hay

Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: Price increase? [Edit]
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  Posted: May 15, 2016 6:48 PM   in response to: Raul Sinimae in response to: Raul Sinimae
Raul Sinimae wrote:

Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:
C# is a managed language, and that means it is not native. There is
no native C# compiler. It requires .NET to run (or Mono, if you
wish).

On windows .net native is included in visual studio 2015 which
compiles your app down to native.

Xamarin iOS and Android similarly compile down to native (or at least
APK runtime on android)..

They all use also native controls on the platforms.

"Native controls" and "native compling" are two totally different pairs
of shoes.

.NET executables are not native, since in this context, "native" means
the opposite of "managed".

"Native controls" means that the controls are supported or provided by
the platform. That is something totally different.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Take only memories; leave nothing but footprints."
-- Chief Seattle
Rudy Velthuis (...


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  Posted: May 17, 2016 8:28 AM   in response to: Raul Sinimae in response to: Raul Sinimae
Raul Sinimae wrote:

On windows .net native is included in visual studio 2015 which
compiles your app down to native.

To machine code, yes, but it still requires a MANAGED ENVIRONMENT to
run. So C# remains a managed language, even if it can be pre-compiled
to native machine code.

If it is managed, it is not native. Pure and simple.
--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"A mathematician is a machine for turning coffee into theorems."
-- Alfréd Rényi (also attributed to Paul Erdös)
Joseph Mitzen

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  Posted: May 14, 2016 9:54 PM   in response to: Christopher Burke in response to: Christopher Burke
Christopher Burke wrote:
Gilbert Padilla wrote:

Xojo, Xamarin, FPC/Lazarus, QT Toolkit ...

According to their respective sites:

Xamarain: Doesn't do desktop native (e.g. Win32 or OSX)

Xamarin is .NET for iOS and Android. Regular .NET handles Win32 and OS X. So it's still .NET for all platforms.

QT Toolkit: Not an integrated tool, pretty much just a library. Not
truly native.

This is incorrect. But first, why are you moving the goalposts? What does it mean that QT is not an "integrated tool"? It's a framework. You target frameworks today. That said, QT does offer the QT Creator IDE, but you're not locked into it. It's a framework, not "a library", that offers far more than FireMonkey actually, such as a complete ORM. And it certainly is "truly native"; the official language for Qt is C++. It also uses native controls.
Markus Humm

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  Posted: May 8, 2016 8:29 AM   in response to: Christopher Burke in response to: Christopher Burke
Am 07.05.2016 um 09:29 schrieb Christopher Burke:
Gilbert Padilla wrote:

Christopher Burke wrote:
C#, like Java, Javascript etc isn't in the same league as Delphi
or C++ etc.

there is .NET Native

How many tools are there that natively target Win32/64/OSX/iOS and
Android ?

How much of a plus is native compilation on mobile?
e.g. has somebody compared speed of different algorithms between say a
Delphi FMX Android app vs. a Java built Android app doing the same?

Where are those benchmark numbers?

Greetings

Markus
Dimitrij Kowalski

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Re: Price increase? [Edit]
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  Posted: May 8, 2016 10:32 PM   in response to: Markus Humm in response to: Markus Humm
{quote:title=Markus Humm wrote:}
How much of a plus is native compilation on mobile?
e.g. has somebody compared speed of different algorithms between say a
Delphi FMX Android app vs. a Java built Android app doing the same?

Where are those benchmark numbers?

Greetings

Markus

I don't have any benchmarks but read the comment section for this post: http://www.tatukgis.com/Blogs/General/October-2013/Developer-Kernel-11-for-mobile-development-sneak-p.aspx
Markus Humm

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  Posted: May 9, 2016 11:07 AM   in response to: Dimitrij Kowalski in response to: Dimitrij Kowalski
Am 09.05.2016 um 07:32 schrieb Dimitrij Kowalski:
{quote:title=Markus Humm wrote:}
How much of a plus is native compilation on mobile?
e.g. has somebody compared speed of different algorithms between say a
Delphi FMX Android app vs. a Java built Android app doing the same?

Where are those benchmark numbers?

Greetings

Markus

I don't have any benchmarks but read the comment section for this post: http://www.tatukgis.com/Blogs/General/October-2013/Developer-Kernel-11-for-mobile-development-sneak-p.aspx

Hello,

ok, but that's only a rough comparison and I didn't see that the FMX
based version is already for sale? The video is from 2013, correct?

Greetings

Markus
Dimitrij Kowalski

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  Posted: May 9, 2016 11:16 PM   in response to: Markus Humm in response to: Markus Humm
{quote:title=Markus Humm wrote:}
Hello,

ok, but that's only a rough comparison and I didn't see that the FMX
based version is already for sale? The video is from 2013, correct?

Yes.
Arthur Hoornweg

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  Posted: May 23, 2016 12:12 AM   in response to: Markus Humm in response to: Markus Humm
Markus Humm wrote:

How much of a plus is native compilation on mobile?
e.g. has somebody compared speed of different algorithms between say a
Delphi FMX Android app vs. a Java built Android app doing the same?

IMHO on a mobile device the single most important factor is battery life. Only in games and in applications having to do with video speed is paramount.

CPU-Native code may actually be a disadvantage given the multitude of platforms. According to this page ( https://developer.android.com/ndk/guides/abis.html ) the Android platform is available on 7 different CPU architectures and counting. I just checked the Android devices in my own household, some are Arm V7 and some are Intel. So if I wanted to use Delphi for developing Android apps, I couldn't even target all of my own devices. From a compatibility point of view, it would be much better if Delphi emitted bytecode and did the final compilation step on the target platform.

Markus Humm

Posts: 5,113
Registered: 11/9/03
Re: Price increase? [Edit]
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  Posted: May 23, 2016 12:27 PM   in response to: Arthur Hoornweg in response to: Arthur Hoornweg
Am 23.05.2016 um 09:12 schrieb Arthur Hoornweg:
Markus Humm wrote:

How much of a plus is native compilation on mobile?
e.g. has somebody compared speed of different algorithms between say a
Delphi FMX Android app vs. a Java built Android app doing the same?

IMHO on a mobile device the single most important factor is battery life. Only in games and in applications having to do with video speed is paramount.

CPU-Native code may actually be a disadvantage given the multitude of platforms. According to this page ( https://developer.android.com/ndk/guides/abis.html ) the Android platform is available on 7 different CPU architectures and counting. I just checked the Android devices in my own household, some are Arm V7 and some are Intel. So if I wanted to use Delphi for developing Android apps, I couldn't even target all of my own devices. From a compatibility point of view, it would be much better if Delphi emit
ted bytecode and did the final compilation step on the target platform.


Hello,

as for targetting Intel based Android devices you might even be wrong ;-)
newer Android versions have some emulation technology integrated named
Houdini and comming from Intel. They can run ARM based apps and what
I've read so far (haven't had opportunity to test that yet) speed is
comparable to ARM based devices of same speed.

Afaik Delphi Android apps do principally run using this, even if Marco
once wrote somewhere that they want to improve support for this. You
might want to ask Marco about it and report back what he tells you then.
Specifically ask about what improvements are needed as that sheds good
light on the state of things in that area.

Greetings

Markus
Arthur Hoornweg

Posts: 414
Registered: 6/2/98
Re: Price increase? [Edit]
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  Posted: May 23, 2016 11:47 PM   in response to: Markus Humm in response to: Markus Humm
Markus Humm wrote:

as for targetting Intel based Android devices you might even be wrong ;-)
newer Android versions have some emulation technology integrated named
Houdini and comming from Intel. They can run ARM based apps and what
I've read so far (haven't had opportunity to test that yet) speed is
comparable to ARM based devices of same speed.

Thanks, but I'm only just beginning mobile development (purely hobby wise) so it's not an issue for me. I intend to try out several development platforms and languages just for the fun of learning.

Kind regards,
Arthur

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