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Thread: Which version of Windows do you use for development?



Permlink Replies: 117 - Last Post: Feb 23, 2016 5:29 AM Last Post By: Rudy Velthuis (... Threads: [ Previous | Next ]
John Kouraklis

Posts: 209
Registered: 3/10/01
Which version of Windows do you use for development?
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  Posted: Jan 14, 2016 5:08 PM
Hi all,

I was wondering which version of windows I should use to develop apps.

I currently use Win7 but I am temped to move to Win10.

However, I think it is better to stay with an older version as many users and (potential) customers don't upgrade to the latest win.

What do you think about this?

Thanks in advance.

John
Remy Lebeau (Te...


Posts: 9,447
Registered: 12/23/01
Re: Which version of Windows do you use for development?
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  Posted: Jan 14, 2016 5:36 PM   in response to: John Kouraklis in response to: John Kouraklis
John wrote:

I was wondering which version of windows I should use to develop apps.

That is entirely up to you. However, just note that starting with RAD Studio
Seattle, the IDE will not run without errors on XP anymore (I found that
out the hard way). The command-line compiler should work fine, though.
So, depending on which version of the IDE you use does have some say in which
OS veersion you use.

However, I think it is better to stay with an older version as many
users and (potential) customers don't upgrade to the latest win.

What you develop on does not dicate what you run your apps on. An IDE
running on XP can produce apps that run on Win10. An IDE running on Win10
can produce apps that run on XP (unless you are using libraries that depend
on newer OS APIs). What you need is older OS installations for testing
your apps. Virtual Machines are good for that, if you don't have physical
machines.

--
Remy Lebeau (TeamB)
John Kouraklis

Posts: 209
Registered: 3/10/01
Re: Which version of Windows do you use for development?
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  Posted: Jan 14, 2016 7:26 PM   in response to: Remy Lebeau (Te... in response to: Remy Lebeau (Te...
Hi Remy,

Remy Lebeau (TeamB) wrote:
John wrote:

I was wondering which version of windows I should use to develop apps.

That is entirely up to you. However, just note that starting with RAD Studio
Seattle, the IDE will not run without errors on XP anymore (I found that
out the hard way). The command-line compiler should work fine, though.
So, depending on which version of the IDE you use does have some say in which
OS veersion you use.

I don't have this case at the moment.

However, I think it is better to stay with an older version as many
users and (potential) customers don't upgrade to the latest win.

What you develop on does not dicate what you run your apps on. An IDE
running on XP can produce apps that run on Win10. An IDE running on Win10
can produce apps that run on XP (unless you are using libraries that depend
on newer OS APIs). What you need is older OS installations for testing
your apps. Virtual Machines are good for that, if you don't have physical
machines.

--

I see how it works.

Actually I am using a VM for development as well. Do you think this is a problem? So far I haven't faced any issues

Thanks
Markus Humm

Posts: 5,113
Registered: 11/9/03
Re: Which version of Windows do you use for development?
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  Posted: Jan 15, 2016 10:03 AM   in response to: John Kouraklis in response to: John Kouraklis
Am 15.01.2016 um 04:26 schrieb John Kour:


I see how it works.

Actually I am using a VM for development as well. Do you think this is a problem? So far I haven't faced any issues

Thanks

Hello,

no, a lot of the posters here use VMs for various reasons. Mostly no
issues, that VM Ware 12.1 issue I posted lately being the exception.

Greetings

Markus
Remy Lebeau (Te...


Posts: 9,447
Registered: 12/23/01
Re: Which version of Windows do you use for development?
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  Posted: Jan 15, 2016 11:20 AM   in response to: John Kouraklis in response to: John Kouraklis
John wrote:

Actually I am using a VM for development as well. Do you think
this is a problem?

No. The IDE and compiler do not care if you are running on a VM or a physical
PC. Neither does the compiled executable, for that matter. The whole point
of a VM is that the environment inside the VM does not know it is being virtualized
(unless code actively seeks out that information, and there are ways to discover
it).

--
Remy Lebeau (TeamB)
Marco A. A. San...

Posts: 22
Registered: 4/10/97
Re: Which version of Windows do you use for development?
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  Posted: Jan 15, 2016 11:01 AM   in response to: John Kouraklis in response to: John Kouraklis
Win10, no particular issues.

Kind Regards,
Marco
John Kouraklis

Posts: 209
Registered: 3/10/01
Re: Which version of Windows do you use for development?
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  Posted: Jan 16, 2016 4:31 AM   in response to: John Kouraklis in response to: John Kouraklis
Thank you all for your input.

I use Parallels 11 on Mac and everything works fine.

JK
Quentin Correll


Posts: 2,412
Registered: 12/1/99
Re: Which version of Windows do you use for development?
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  Posted: Jan 16, 2016 4:27 PM   in response to: John Kouraklis in response to: John Kouraklis
John,

| I was wondering which version of windows I should use to develop apps.
|
| I currently use Win7 but I am temped to move to Win10.

I tried Win10. I ended-up restoring my system to Win7-64 SP1.

--

Q -- XanaNews 1.19.1.372 - 2016-01-16 16:25:57
Christopher Burke

Posts: 580
Registered: 9/25/99
Re: Which version of Windows do you use for development?
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  Posted: Jan 16, 2016 5:04 PM   in response to: Quentin Correll in response to: Quentin Correll
Quentin Correll wrote:

John,

I was wondering which version of windows I should use to develop
apps.
I currently use Win7 but I am temped to move to Win10.

I tried Win10. I ended-up restoring my system to Win7-64 SP1.

Just curious why you didn't like all the increased efficiency and speed
that Windows 10 brings you ?

For me - going from Windows 7 -> 8 was a huge jump in performance on
the same hardware, and Windows 10 continued with that jump.

Compilations on a fresh Windows 7 were problematic at best, and failed
at worse for me.
Remy Lebeau (Te...


Posts: 9,447
Registered: 12/23/01
Re: Which version of Windows do you use for development?
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  Posted: Jan 16, 2016 7:23 PM   in response to: Christopher Burke in response to: Christopher Burke
Christopher wrote:

Just curious why you didn't like all the increased efficiency
and speed that Windows 10 brings you ?

For me, I use XE2 on a Win7 machine and it is fairly snappy. I have Win10
in a VM and it runs very slow. Not sure if I will dare upgrade my host Win7
to Win10 or not.

--
Remy Lebeau (TeamB)
Christopher Burke

Posts: 580
Registered: 9/25/99
Re: Which version of Windows do you use for development?
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  Posted: Jan 17, 2016 9:34 AM   in response to: Remy Lebeau (Te... in response to: Remy Lebeau (Te...
Remy Lebeau (TeamB) wrote:

Christopher wrote:

Just curious why you didn't like all the increased efficiency
and speed that Windows 10 brings you ?

For me, I use XE2 on a Win7 machine and it is fairly snappy. I have
Win10 in a VM and it runs very slow. Not sure if I will dare upgrade
my host Win7 to Win10 or not.

Everything I do in a VM is very slow. The big deal with Win8+ is the
vastly improved memory management in the OS.

There are actually some machines can't run Win7 that can run Win10 as
the requirements are a lot lower :)

But if you are still using XE2, I suppose there isn't any other big
reason to move up except performance, and if you are already running
stable and good - why fix it :)
Quentin Correll


Posts: 2,412
Registered: 12/1/99
Re: Which version of Windows do you use for development?
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  Posted: Jan 17, 2016 11:22 AM   in response to: Christopher Burke in response to: Christopher Burke
Christopher,

| ...and if you are already running stable and good - why fix it :)

Yep. "If it ain't broke, DON'T "fix" it!

--

Q -- XanaNews 1.19.1.372 - 2016-01-17 11:21:37
Quentin Correll


Posts: 2,412
Registered: 12/1/99
Re: Which version of Windows do you use for development?
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  Posted: Jan 17, 2016 11:21 AM   in response to: Remy Lebeau (Te... in response to: Remy Lebeau (Te...
Remy,

| Not sure if I will dare upgrade my host Win7 to Win10 or not.

My personal recommendation would be to NOT!

--

Q -- XanaNews 1.19.1.372 - 2016-01-17 11:20:10
Arthur Hoornweg

Posts: 414
Registered: 6/2/98
Re: Which version of Windows do you use for development?
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  Posted: Jan 18, 2016 12:31 AM   in response to: Remy Lebeau (Te... in response to: Remy Lebeau (Te...
Remy Lebeau (TeamB) wrote:

For me, I use XE2 on a Win7 machine and it is fairly snappy. I have Win10
in a VM and it runs very slow. Not sure if I will dare upgrade my host Win7
to Win10 or not.

I currently use VMWare workstation 11 which runs very well on Windows 10 host machines but it doesn't officially support Windows 10 VM's. I've read that Windows 10 VM's run slow and somewhat choppy under VMWare 11, version 12 is said to fix that.

My host machine (a Dell Latitude E6540, core i7 quad 2.7 GHz / 16 Gb) now runs Windows 10 x64. I upgraded it from Windows 8.1 and ever since, the Windows update system kept breaking things all by itself. One day I couldn't get into the control panel anymore (error: "a remote procedure call failed"), the next day the sound card stopped working, the third day the network card ceased to function. The fourth day I couldn't even execute basic applications like the calculator anymore.

Only after performing a Windows 10 "repair installation" from a thumb drive the system became usable. The only issue left was a USB3 bug that kept disconnecting my external hard drive every few minutes (I managed to fix that with a registry patch). Everything seems stable now.

What I mean is, "upgrade installations" suck IMHO, the system is never as stable as a fresh installation. If you do one, it may be worthwhile to do a "repair installation" immediately afterwards to fix any remaining issues. Also, you'll need to re-install VMWare Workstation because the virtual network ceases to work after the Windows upgrade.

My development VM is Windows 7 x64 which runs extremely well but it keeps nagging me about scheduling an upgrade to Windows 10. I'm still uncertain whether I should do it. At the very least I'll have to update my VMWare first.
Remy Lebeau (Te...


Posts: 9,447
Registered: 12/23/01
Re: Which version of Windows do you use for development?
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  Posted: Jan 18, 2016 11:34 AM   in response to: Arthur Hoornweg in response to: Arthur Hoornweg
Arthur wrote:

I currently use VMWare workstation 11 ... but it doesn't
officially support Windows 10 VM's.

I use VMWare Player 11, which does support Win10 VMs.

--
Remy Lebeau (TeamB)
Markus Humm

Posts: 5,113
Registered: 11/9/03
Re: Which version of Windows do you use for development?
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  Posted: Jan 18, 2016 11:37 AM   in response to: Arthur Hoornweg in response to: Arthur Hoornweg
Am 18.01.2016 um 09:31 schrieb Arthur Hoornweg:
Remy Lebeau (TeamB) wrote:

For me, I use XE2 on a Win7 machine and it is fairly snappy. I have Win10
in a VM and it runs very slow. Not sure if I will dare upgrade my host Win7
to Win10 or not.

I currently use VMWare workstation 11 which runs very well on Windows 10 host machines but it doesn't officially support Windows 10 VM's. I've read that Windows 10 VM's run slow and somewhat choppy under VMWare 11, version 12 is said to fix that.

My host machine (a Dell Latitude E6540, core i7 quad 2.7 GHz / 16 Gb) now runs Windows 10 x64. I upgraded it from Windows 8.1 and ever since, the Windows update system kept breaking things all by itself. One day I couldn't get into the control panel anymore (error: "a remote procedure call failed"), the next day the sound card stopped working, the third day the network card ceased to function. The fourth day I couldn't even execute basic applications like the calculator anymore.

Only after performing a Windows 10 "repair installation" from a thumb drive the system became usable. The only issue left was a USB3 bug that kept disconnecting my external hard drive every few minutes (I managed to fix that with a registry patch). Everything seems stable now.

What I mean is, "upgrade installations" suck IMHO, the system is never as stable as a fresh installation. If you do one, it may be worthwhile to do a "repair installation" immediately afterwards to fix any remaining issues. Also, you'll need to re-install VMWare Workstation because the virtual network ceases to work after the Windows upgrade.

My development VM is Windows 7 x64 which runs extremely well but it keeps nagging me about scheduling an upgrade to Windows 10. I'm still uncertain whether I should do it. At the very least I'll have to update my VMWare first.

Hello,

if you update VM Ware don't use 12.1 if you have USB pheripherals to
connect to the VM. That gives trouble. 12.0 is ok.

Greetings

Markus
Olaf Hess

Posts: 11
Registered: 10/10/08
Re: Which version of Windows do you use for development?
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  Posted: Jan 20, 2016 5:05 AM   in response to: Arthur Hoornweg in response to: Arthur Hoornweg
The MS Knowledge Base article "How to manage Windows 10 notification and upgrade options" explains how to silence / disable the "Get Windows 10" app: https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/kb/3080351

There's also a tool "GWX Control Panel" that does this for you: http://ultimateoutsider.com/downloads

Hope this helps,
Olaf

Arthur Hoornweg wrote:
Remy Lebeau (TeamB) wrote:

For me, I use XE2 on a Win7 machine and it is fairly snappy. I have Win10
in a VM and it runs very slow. Not sure if I will dare upgrade my host Win7
to Win10 or not.

I currently use VMWare workstation 11 which runs very well on Windows 10 host machines but it doesn't officially support Windows 10 VM's. I've read that Windows 10 VM's run slow and somewhat choppy under VMWare 11, version 12 is said to fix that.

My development VM is Windows 7 x64 which runs extremely well but it keeps nagging me about scheduling an upgrade to Windows 10. I'm still uncertain whether I should do it. At the very least I'll have to update my VMWare first.
Quentin Correll


Posts: 2,412
Registered: 12/1/99
Re: Which version of Windows do you use for development?
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  Posted: Jan 17, 2016 11:19 AM   in response to: Christopher Burke in response to: Christopher Burke
Christopher,

| Just curious why you didn't like all the increased efficiency and
| speed that Windows 10 brings you ?

It never brought me any such improvements. I had so many problems
trying to use Win10 that I never saw any such "increased efficiency."

It isn't MY responsibility to debug something that SHOULD have worked
out-of-the-box so I just went back to using Win7-64 SP1. My personal
feeling is that Win10 was/is a piece of cr*p. <grumble>

--

Q -- XanaNews 1.19.1.372 - 2016-01-17 11:09:13
Christopher Burke

Posts: 580
Registered: 9/25/99
Re: Which version of Windows do you use for development?
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  Posted: Jan 17, 2016 7:16 PM   in response to: Quentin Correll in response to: Quentin Correll
Quentin Correll wrote:

It isn't MY responsibility to debug something that SHOULD have worked
out-of-the-box so I just went back to using Win7-64 SP1. My personal
feeling is that Win10 was/is a piece of cr*p. <grumble>

The efficiency was all memory based really, certainly far better
product thatn Windows 7.

Love the 10x faster start up time on my system too :)
Madt Mallinckrodt

Posts: 6
Registered: 3/4/00
Re: Which version of Windows do you use for development?
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  Posted: Jan 19, 2016 10:10 AM   in response to: Quentin Correll in response to: Quentin Correll
| I currently use Win7 but I am temped to move to Win10.

I tried Win10. I ended-up restoring my system to Win7-64 SP1.

XE6 on Win10 64, runs without apparent issues, but...

The Win10 AppStore has crunched itself and no longer functions, and from
time to time the Start button stops working. This has happened twice, and
it was annoying to have to run
a couple of reset functions from the elevated PowerShell. Not time
consuming, but a sign that all is not perfect in the Land of Windows.

Madt M.
Quentin Correll


Posts: 2,412
Registered: 12/1/99
Re: Which version of Windows do you use for development?
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  Posted: Jan 19, 2016 10:52 AM   in response to: Madt Mallinckrodt in response to: Madt Mallinckrodt
Madt,

| I tried Win10. I ended-up restoring my system to Win7-64 SP1.

Ditto. And I'm MUCH happier now!!

--

Q -- XanaNews 1.19.1.372 - 2016-01-19 10:52:02
Markus Humm

Posts: 5,113
Registered: 11/9/03
Re: Which version of Windows do you use for development?
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  Posted: Jan 20, 2016 1:50 PM   in response to: Madt Mallinckrodt in response to: Madt Mallinckrodt
Am 19.01.2016 um 19:10 schrieb Madt Mallinckrodt:
| I currently use Win7 but I am temped to move to Win10.

I tried Win10. I ended-up restoring my system to Win7-64 SP1.

XE6 on Win10 64, runs without apparent issues, but...

The Win10 AppStore has crunched itself and no longer functions, and from
time to time the Start button stops working. This has happened twice, and
it was annoying to have to run
a couple of reset functions from the elevated PowerShell. Not time
consuming, but a sign that all is not perfect in the Land of Windows.

Madt M.

Hello,

a few days after installing it the start button didn't work for me 2
times as well, but Windows always detected that and told me it'll get
repaired on the next start, which it indeed did. But using it since a
few months now and it just works. I only ask myself why they had to mess
around with the shutdown options. The log out option to switch to a new
user has been removed. I could add that as desktop icon somehow, but why
they always have to mess around with such little items which don't bring
much value is beyond me.

Greetings

Markus
Adem Meda

Posts: 495
Registered: 12/28/98
Re: Which version of Windows do you use for development?
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  Posted: Jan 21, 2016 1:50 AM   in response to: Madt Mallinckrodt in response to: Madt Mallinckrodt
Madt Mallinckrodt wrote:

I currently use Win7 but I am temped to move to Win10.

I tried Win10. I ended-up restoring my system to Win7-64 SP1.

My experience:

When I do a fresh install, I simply hate almos all the UI.

But, if I, instead, upgrade from a Win7 to Win10, it's much more to my taste
--I hate the tablet GUI; and love the Classic Start Menu.

So, for VMs (and everything else) I do a fresh install Win7, and then upgrade
to Win10. [Actually, I have one such VM that I copy for a new VM.]

Other than that, Win10 has been rock solid, both as VM and stand-alone.
Alexander Elagin

Posts: 55
Registered: 9/18/00
Re: Which version of Windows do you use for development?
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  Posted: Jan 17, 2016 6:24 AM   in response to: John Kouraklis in response to: John Kouraklis
I use for Delphi development Windows XP SP3 in a VMWare virtual machine running on a Linux Mint host. As I see absolutely no reasons to use any Delphi version newer than XE, this configuration suits all my needs for at least the next five years.
Remy Lebeau (Te...


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Re: Which version of Windows do you use for development?
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  Posted: Jan 17, 2016 5:07 PM   in response to: Alexander Elagin in response to: Alexander Elagin
Alexander wrote:

I use for Delphi development Windows XP SP3 in a VMWare virtual
machine running on a Linux Mint host.

Most of my Delphi VMs are running XP as well. But starting with Seattle,
the IDE (or more specifically, Borland.Studio.Vcl.Design.Refactoring.dll
and delphiios32230.bpl) are throwing exceptions during the splash screen
startup. I see 3 popup errors before the code editor appears (reported as
RSP-12689, which has been closed as "Wont fix" sice XP is no longer officially
supported). After that, the IDE runs, but I wouldn't trust executables from
it at this point. I use it just to make sure code compiles.

As I see absolutely no reasons to use any Delphi version newer than
XE, this configuration suits all my needs for at least the next five years.

FWIW, I still use BCB6 for all my projects at my day job.

--
Remy Lebeau (TeamB)
Arthur Hoornweg

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Registered: 6/2/98
Re: Which version of Windows do you use for development?
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  Posted: Jan 18, 2016 1:24 AM   in response to: Remy Lebeau (Te... in response to: Remy Lebeau (Te...
Remy Lebeau (TeamB) wrote:

Most of my Delphi VMs are running XP as well.

I abandoned Delphi XP because one of my most valued tools (Finalbuilder 8) no longer supports it. Finalbuilder is my do-it-all build & release tool and I refuse to be without it.

Also, the transition forced me to finally do some serious research into Microsoft IIS7+, 64-bit ISAPI's and third-party web servers (which I use for debugging ISAPI's). This stuff is totally neglected in Delphi and also in Intraweb. BTW, there are some serious bugs lurking in Delphi ("isapithreadpool.pas"), the way it was written means it crashes in every third-party web server except Netscape (which no longer exists).
Alexandre Machado

Posts: 1,754
Registered: 8/10/13
Re: Which version of Windows do you use for development?
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  Posted: Jan 18, 2016 5:18 PM   in response to: Arthur Hoornweg in response to: Arthur Hoornweg
Arthur Hoornweg wrote:

This stuff is totally neglected in Delphi and also in Intraweb.

Could you please elaborate what is neglected in Intraweb? Win64 bit ISAPI debugging? ISAPI debugging is just like any other debugging. I do it every single day. About x64 debugging, though, you don't expect IntraWeb to fix any misbehavior of Delphi's own debugger, do you?
Arthur Hoornweg

Posts: 414
Registered: 6/2/98
Re: Which version of Windows do you use for development?
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  Posted: Jan 19, 2016 1:06 AM   in response to: Alexandre Machado in response to: Alexandre Machado
Alexandre Machado wrote:

Could you please elaborate what is neglected in Intraweb? Win64 bit ISAPI debugging? ISAPI debugging is just any other debugging. I do it every single day. About x64 debugging, though, you don't expect IntraWeb to fix any misbehavior of Delphi's own debugger, do you?

Please don't take offense. I know that you are an ISAPI expert and know all the ins and outs of them, but most users don't. For the average developer there are tons of hurdles to overcome when developing and deploying an ISAPI.

For starters, Delphi doesn't offer a built-in web server host process for debugging them like Visual Studio. Unfortunately Intraweb doesn't come with one either. Sure, Intraweb has a nice built-in http server for standalone exe-based apps but where's the one for ISAPI's?. Having a host process for debugging ISAPI's would be an enormous time saver to developers. To make my own life easier, I myself bought a copy of Abyss (a little web server by a company called Aprelium) which can act as a host process. Abyss can be started with command line parameters and comes in a 32 and 64 bit version. This makes debugging ISAPI's in Delphi sooo much easier because I can just hardwire the host process in the IDE settings and press "run". But this third-party web server also revealed that Delphi's unit ISAPITHREADPOOL has a fatal flaw, that one enables async i/o by default (which only IIS itself supports AFAIK).

But as you will certainly know, the biggest hoop to jump through is getting an ISAPI DLL to run at all on somebody else's web server. An Isapi is such a b#tch to deploy. You can't just hand somebody the DLL and run away. Delphi doesn't offer any installation utility for the ISAPI's it generates. Neither does Intraweb. Basically you're left with a DLL that only an expert can install, which dramatically reduces the chances of marketing such a thing. Which I find tragic, given the fact that IIS comes with Windows so a potential market is there.
Markus Humm

Posts: 5,113
Registered: 11/9/03
Re: Which version of Windows do you use for development?
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  Posted: Jan 19, 2016 9:14 AM   in response to: Arthur Hoornweg in response to: Arthur Hoornweg
Am 19.01.2016 um 10:06 schrieb Arthur Hoornweg:

But as you will certainly know, the biggest hoop to jump through
is getting an ISAPI DLL to run at all on somebody else's web server.
An Isapi is such a b#tch to deploy. You can't just hand somebody the
DLL and run away.

Just out of curiosity: what has to be done to instasll such a DLL?
Has this to be registered like COM-Server? Or is there some DCOM like
config necessary?

As for the missing host application to make testing easier: did you
already file a feature request in QP? Nowadays you finally can as they
added that issue type.

Greetings

Markus
Alexandre Machado

Posts: 1,754
Registered: 8/10/13
Re: Which version of Windows do you use for development?
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  Posted: Jan 19, 2016 12:50 PM   in response to: Markus Humm in response to: Markus Humm
Markus Humm wrote:
Am 19.01.2016 um 10:06 schrieb Arthur Hoornweg:

But as you will certainly know, the biggest hoop to jump through
is getting an ISAPI DLL to run at all on somebody else's web server.
An Isapi is such a b#tch to deploy. You can't just hand somebody the
DLL and run away.

Just out of curiosity: what has to be done to instasll such a DLL?
Has this to be registered like COM-Server? Or is there some DCOM like
config necessary?
http://docs.atozed.com/docs.dll/deployment/Deploying%20your%20application%20as%20a%20ISAPI.html

The process is not difficult, although I cannot call it a piece of cake as well.
Anyway, any professional Windows sys admin should be able to follow such instructions to install an ISAPI DLL, otherwise he should look for another area ;-)

Cheers,

Alexandre
Alexandre Machado

Posts: 1,754
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Re: Which version of Windows do you use for development?
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  Posted: Jan 19, 2016 12:59 PM   in response to: Arthur Hoornweg in response to: Arthur Hoornweg
Arthur Hoornweg wrote:
Alexandre Machado wrote:

Could you please elaborate what is neglected in Intraweb? Win64 bit ISAPI debugging? ISAPI debugging is just any other debugging. I do it every single day. About x64 debugging, though, you don't expect IntraWeb to fix any misbehavior of Delphi's own debugger, do you?

Please don't take offense. I know that you are an ISAPI expert and know all the ins and outs of them, but most users don't. For the average developer there are tons of hurdles to overcome when developing and deploying an ISAPI.

No, I didn't take it as personal.

ISAPI deployment is not simple as "next, next, next...", I agree. But is not difficult, at least it is not any more difficult than any other common server task in Windows servers (like install COM+ support, FTP server, or even install a new MS SQL Server instance). Any sys admin should be able to do it with his eyes closed, no?
I mean, PHP installation under Windows is not easier than any ISAPI app installation and I don't listen people complaining about PHP install.

For starters, Delphi doesn't offer a built-in web server host process for debugging them like Visual Studio. Unfortunately Intraweb doesn't come with one either. Sure, Intraweb has a nice built-in http server for standalone exe-based apps but where's the one for ISAPI's?. Having a host process for debugging ISAPI's would be an enormous time saver to developers. To make my own life easier, I myself bought a copy of Abyss (a little web server by a company called Aprelium) which can act as a host process. Abyss can be started with command line parameters and comes in a 32 and 64 bit version. This makes debugging ISAPI's in Delphi sooo much easier because I can just hardwire the host process in the IDE settings and press "run". But this third-party web server also revealed that Delphi's unit ISAPITHREADPOOL has a fatal flaw, that one enables async i/o by default (which only IIS itself supports AFAIK).

As a IntraWeb dev I have to debug it as ISAPI, yes, but if you are just creating a new IntraWeb application you seldom need to debug it as ISAPI. 99% of the times, using the SA server will get you there, unless you have some specific issue that only happens in ISAPI. But those are inside the 1%... And It is simple, very simple to debug ISAPI apps: http://alexandrecmachado.blogspot.co.nz/2012/04/debug-isapi-extensions-in-windows-7-and.html

Does not take 5 mins to do the proper setup and start debugging. Really.

But as you will certainly know, the biggest hoop to jump through is getting an ISAPI DLL to run at all on somebody else's web server. An Isapi is such a b#tch to deploy. You can't just hand somebody the DLL and run away. Delphi doesn't offer any installation utility for the ISAPI's it generates. Neither does Intraweb. Basically you're left with a DLL that only an expert can install, which dramatically reduces the chances of marketing such a thing. Which I find tragic, given the fact that IIS comes with Windows so a potential market is there.

I agree that things should/could be simpler, yes. But most of the issues are caused by Microsoft itself, that makes CGI and ISAPI support something hidden and not installed by default in Windows servers. So, even if you create a setup that does all the IIS configuration itself, you still have to ask your user to install and configure the basic IIS and ISAPI support, because MS decided to leave it out of the default configuration. And ASP.NET is no different from this point of view!
Andrew Law

Posts: 74
Registered: 11/6/02
Re: Which version of Windows do you use for development?
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  Posted: Jan 25, 2016 10:13 AM   in response to: Remy Lebeau (Te... in response to: Remy Lebeau (Te...
Remy Lebeau (TeamB) wrote:
Alexander wrote:

FWIW, I still use BCB6 for all my projects at my day job.


FWIW, I still also maintain a working install of BCB6 at my day job in order to maintain some legacy (~2000-2002) projects that now operate as test harnesses for later equivalents now built in BCB2010 (our current platform of choice).

We are exploring the jump directly from BCB2010 to BCB 10 Seattle in a couple of months. But I will keep my copy of BCB6 up to date just the same! :-)

Some of the third-party hardware we still use requires support libraries built using BCB6 on XP - so any ongoing support for them has to be done on PCs with this environment. We can't access this hardware from a VM, so some of our developers need two PCs under each desk.

Andrew
Alexandre Machado

Posts: 1,754
Registered: 8/10/13
Re: Which version of Windows do you use for development?
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  Posted: Jan 18, 2016 5:15 PM   in response to: John Kouraklis in response to: John Kouraklis
John Kour wrote:
Hi all,

I was wondering which version of windows I should use to develop apps.

I currently use Win7 but I am temped to move to Win10.

I use both Win 7 (desktop) and Win 8.1 (laptop). Win 10 is crap, IMO. Eventually I will be forced by reasons out of my control to move on, or just maybe, I can skip Win 10 just like I did with the other crap named Vista.

Win 10 brings nothing and you will in fact be less productive than before. Maybe that's why Erik Meijer says what he says about Microsoft, not listening to its customers. Of course 90% of people will tell you how Win 10 is great, how it has some very "cool" new features. Nothing to do with productivity, though. Only subjective opinion based stuff.
Quentin Correll


Posts: 2,412
Registered: 12/1/99
Re: Which version of Windows do you use for development? [Edit]
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  Posted: Jan 19, 2016 10:54 AM   in response to: Alexandre Machado in response to: Alexandre Machado
Alexandre,

| Win 10 is crap, IMO.

Also my opinion!!!

--

Q -- XanaNews 1.19.1.372 - 2016-01-19 10:54:03
Uros Cotman

Posts: 15
Registered: 3/27/05
Re: Which version of Windows do you use for development?
Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this thread Reply
  Posted: Jan 20, 2016 1:06 AM   in response to: John Kouraklis in response to: John Kouraklis
Hello John,

I use Windows 10 home and Windows 10 Pro. I highly recommend Win10 since MS is canceling support for older versions sooner or later. I recommend to all my customers to upgrade. Not all of them do, but I have no problems running my industrial applications on Windows 7 and up. In my experience Windows 10 are amazing. Fast, reliable and had no problems with Win10 so far. If you are bothered with automatic updates on Win10 Home edition, upgrade to Pro and you will be spared with "untimely" updates.

If you are concerned about sharing your private data, disable bunch of settings including Cortana. If you are "paranoid" about security then switch to Tails and continue with Free Pascal :) The only flaw I see in Windows is the lack of information (source code, etc) from MS to actually see what they are sending in/out and how may "government" back doors are there, if...

Kind regards

John Kour wrote:
Hi all,

I was wondering which version of windows I should use to develop apps.

I currently use Win7 but I am temped to move to Win10.

However, I think it is better to stay with an older version as many users and (potential) customers don't upgrade to the latest win.

What do you think about this?

Thanks in advance.

John
Quentin Correll


Posts: 2,412
Registered: 12/1/99
Re: Which version of Windows do you use for development?
Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this thread Reply
  Posted: Jan 20, 2016 12:16 PM   in response to: Uros Cotman in response to: Uros Cotman
Uros,

| I highly recommend Win10 since MS is canceling support for older
| versions sooner or later.

http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/lifecycle

--

Q -- XanaNews 1.19.1.372 - 2016-01-20 12:09:20
Alexandre Machado

Posts: 1,754
Registered: 8/10/13
Re: Which version of Windows do you use for development?
Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this thread Reply
  Posted: Jan 20, 2016 1:47 PM   in response to: Quentin Correll in response to: Quentin Correll
Quentin Correll wrote:
Uros,

| I highly recommend Win10 since MS is canceling support for older
| versions sooner or later.

http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/lifecycle

Oh, we have extended W7 support till 2020! And 81. till 2023! This gives me 4/7 years. I'm pretty sure I can skip that Cortana crap altogether... ;-)
Markus Humm

Posts: 5,113
Registered: 11/9/03
Re: Which version of Windows do you use for development?
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  Posted: Jan 20, 2016 1:58 PM   in response to: Alexandre Machado in response to: Alexandre Machado
Am 20.01.2016 um 22:47 schrieb Alexandre Machado:
Quentin Correll wrote:
Uros,

| I highly recommend Win10 since MS is canceling support for older
| versions sooner or later.

http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/lifecycle

Oh, we have extended W7 support till 2020! And 81. till 2023! This gives me 4/7 years. I'm pretty sure I can skip that Cortana crap altogether... ;-)

Don't be too sure ;-)

I read today that MS doesn't support older OS versions on CPUs which
came out after them anymore or something like that.

German article about it:
http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/Microsoft-Support-fuer-neue-Prozessoren-zukuenftig-nur-noch-beim-neuesten-Windows-3072791.html

(support for new CPOUs only with newest OS version)

Greetings

Markus
Angus Robertson

Posts: 205
Registered: 3/17/00
Re: Which version of Windows do you use for development?
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  Posted: Jan 21, 2016 12:44 AM   in response to: Alexandre Machado in response to: Alexandre Machado
Oh, we have extended W7 support till 2020! And 81. till 2023!
This gives me 4/7 years. I'm pretty sure I can skip that Cortana
crap altogether... ;-)

Technically you can keep using Windows 7, but expect Microsoft to get
even more aggressive and intrusive in it's attempts to force you to
upgrade to Windows 10. There are tools to try and stop the upgrade
process, but Microsoft keeps downloads counter measures.

I upgraded an old Windows 7 PC to 10 in the summer, and used it for
Delphi development since without any real issues. But Windows Update
was very slow due to 36GB and five years of old installers files, so I
finally got a new PC with a fresh Windows 10 installation.

The only technical issue I've seen with Windows 10 is some old
applications displaying file directories seem to refresh far too often,
Ultra Explorer in particular (an old Delphi application). I suspect the
FindFirstChangeNotification API has changed in some subtle way.

Angus
Alexandre Machado

Posts: 1,754
Registered: 8/10/13
Re: Which version of Windows do you use for development?
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  Posted: Jan 20, 2016 1:50 PM   in response to: Uros Cotman in response to: Uros Cotman
Uros Cotman wrote:
Hello John,

I use Windows 10 home and Windows 10 Pro. I highly recommend Win10 since MS is canceling support for older versions sooner or later. I recommend to all my customers to upgrade. Not all of them do, but I have no problems running my industrial applications on Windows 7 and up. In my experience Windows 10 are amazing. Fast, reliable and had no problems with Win10 so far. If you are bothered with automatic updates on Win10 Home edition, upgrade to Pro and you will be spared with "untimely" updates.

If you are concerned about sharing your private data, disable bunch of settings including Cortana. If you are "paranoid" about security then switch to Tails and continue with Free Pascal :) The only flaw I see in Windows is the lack of information (source code, etc) from MS to actually see what they are sending in/out and how may "government" back doors are there, if...

Kind regards

John Kour wrote:
Hi all,

I was wondering which version of windows I should use to develop apps.

I currently use Win7 but I am temped to move to Win10.

However, I think it is better to stay with an older version as many users and (potential) customers don't upgrade to the latest win.

What do you think about this?

Thanks in advance.

John

Besides "MS will drop support for older versions sooner or later", "I didn't have problems with it" and "I'm not paranoid about privacy", anything else? Fast and reliable, Windows XP still is. In fact any Windows XP out there flies compared to anything after Vista... You don't have idea how many companies are still running XP.
David Erbas-White

Posts: 202
Registered: 10/11/99
Re: Which version of Windows do you use for development?
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  Posted: Jan 20, 2016 2:36 PM   in response to: Alexandre Machado in response to: Alexandre Machado
On 1/20/2016 1:50 PM, Alexandre Machado wrote:

Besides "MS will drop support for older versions sooner or later", "I didn't have problems with it" and "I'm not paranoid about privacy", anything else? Fast and reliable, Windows XP still is. In fact any Windows XP out there flies compared to anything after Vista... You don't have idea how many companies are still running XP.

Until recently, our local (national) chain of gyms was running Win98
(they recently upgrade to Win7 in the past couple of months). I've been
in a number of medical offices over the past few months, some of them
seem to even be running Win95.

I have to admit being somewhat amused to see 'ultra-private' records
being held on machines with such a purportedly (and admittedly) insecure
older system, but such is the 'real world'.

David Erbas-White
Van Swofford

Posts: 397
Registered: 6/28/03
Re: Which version of Windows do you use for development?
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  Posted: Jan 21, 2016 7:52 AM   in response to: David Erbas-White in response to: David Erbas-White
David Erbas-White wrote:

Until recently, our local (national) chain of gyms was running Win98
(they recently upgrade to Win7 in the past couple of months). I've
been in a number of medical offices over the past few months, some of
them seem to even be running Win95.

I have to admit being somewhat amused to see 'ultra-private' records
being held on machines with such a purportedly (and admittedly)
insecure older system, but such is the 'real world'.

I guess it depends on whether the system is connected to the internet.
If it isn't, the only security hole is the lock on the front door. I
would think some very purpose specific devices have no need to connect
to the outside world, and will be perfectly safe running Windows 95
well into the future. Or at least until they have to replace the
hardware and Win95 won't run on it at all. :-)

--
Cheers,
Van

"Good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad
judgment." - Will Rogers
Alexandre Machado

Posts: 1,754
Registered: 8/10/13
Re: Which version of Windows do you use for development?
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  Posted: Jan 21, 2016 3:25 PM   in response to: Van Swofford in response to: Van Swofford
I guess it depends on whether the system is connected to the internet.
If it isn't, the only security hole is the lock on the front door.

Exactly. I know lots of companies running WinXP in plants, completely disconnected from the internet.
They run some web applications in IE 6, and they don't intend to upgrade. Seems that some guys, if were IT managers of such companies, would recommend to migrate everything to Win 10, so the employees could occasionally ask Cortana a question or two (the IT manager would probably get fired after that).
Arthur Hoornweg

Posts: 414
Registered: 6/2/98
Re: Which version of Windows do you use for development?
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  Posted: Jan 21, 2016 11:39 PM   in response to: Alexandre Machado in response to: Alexandre Machado
Alexandre Machado wrote:
I guess it depends on whether the system is connected to the internet.
If it isn't, the only security hole is the lock on the front door.

Exactly. I know lots of companies running WinXP in plants, completely disconnected from the internet.

You'd be surprised how many worms and viruses travel through USB thumbdrives. Remember Stuxnet?

Alexandre Machado

Posts: 1,754
Registered: 8/10/13
Re: Which version of Windows do you use for development?
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  Posted: Jan 25, 2016 1:36 PM   in response to: Arthur Hoornweg in response to: Arthur Hoornweg
Arthur Hoornweg wrote:
Alexandre Machado wrote:
I guess it depends on whether the system is connected to the internet.
If it isn't, the only security hole is the lock on the front door.

Exactly. I know lots of companies running WinXP in plants, completely disconnected from the internet.

You'd be surprised how many worms and viruses travel through USB thumbdrives. Remember Stuxnet?


I have serious doubts that XP machines used in plants for automation have any free usable USB port in it, or diskette drives. Do you know that many ATM machines around the world run Windows XP? I have seen some running Windows 2000!
You are missing the point completely: I'm not saying that you should use XP forever. I'm saying that there are still lots of companies using it. They don't care about MS dropping support for it. And there are lots of software that must run in those machines.
Arthur Hoornweg

Posts: 414
Registered: 6/2/98
Re: Which version of Windows do you use for development?
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  Posted: Jan 26, 2016 6:58 AM   in response to: Alexandre Machado in response to: Alexandre Machado
Alexandre Machado wrote:

You are missing the point completely: I'm not saying that you should use XP forever. I'm saying that there are still lots of companies using it. They don't care about MS dropping support for it. And there are lots of software that must run in those machines.

I'm not missing the point - in fact we still have lots of PC's running XP for this reason. But even on PC's that were only connected to the LAN and not to the internet (no gateway assigned) we have had massive infections with the Blaster and Slammer worms a decade ago. These travelled through UDP broadcasts.
Markus Humm

Posts: 5,113
Registered: 11/9/03
Re: Which version of Windows do you use for development?
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  Posted: Jan 26, 2016 9:49 AM   in response to: Alexandre Machado in response to: Alexandre Machado
Am 25.01.2016 um 22:36 schrieb Alexandre Machado:
Arthur Hoornweg wrote:
Alexandre Machado wrote:
I guess it depends on whether the system is connected to the internet.
If it isn't, the only security hole is the lock on the front door.

Exactly. I know lots of companies running WinXP in plants, completely disconnected from the internet.

You'd be surprised how many worms and viruses travel through USB thumbdrives. Remember Stuxnet?


I have serious doubts that XP machines used in plants for automation have any free usable USB port in it, or diskette drives. Do you know that many ATM machines around the world run Windows XP? I have seen some running Windows 2000!
You are missing the point completely: I'm not saying that you should use XP forever. I'm saying that there are still lots of companies using it. They don't care about MS dropping support for it. And there are lots of software that must run in those machines.

I've heared about a register cash manufacturer who still uses NT4, which
has no builtin USB support ;-)

And MS sells/sold? MS DOS until sometime in 2016. Yes!
And I recently saw an add for a HP laptop in 2 flowers: the cheaper one
will be delivered with FreeDOS!

Greetings

Markus
Uros Cotman

Posts: 15
Registered: 3/27/05
Re: Which version of Windows do you use for development?
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  Posted: Jan 21, 2016 8:16 AM   in response to: Alexandre Machado in response to: Alexandre Machado
I am happy for you. Good luck. You don't need more than Delphi7 and a dial up internet.^^ I am aware that many people use "good old' technology and it suits them just fine. Some people like old diesel cars from the 80's some like "newer", possibly electric cars. But I am not comparing M$ product to that, so please do not start a full on debate about that.

My first reply was to the author and my experience about Win10.You know how it goes, to each his own.

Alexandre Machado wrote:
Uros Cotman wrote:
Hello John,

I use Windows 10 home and Windows 10 Pro. I highly recommend Win10 since MS is canceling support for older versions sooner or later. I recommend to all my customers to upgrade. Not all of them do, but I have no problems running my industrial applications on Windows 7 and up. In my experience Windows 10 are amazing. Fast, reliable and had no problems with Win10 so far. If you are bothered with automatic updates on Win10 Home edition, upgrade to Pro and you will be spared with "untimely" updates.

If you are concerned about sharing your private data, disable bunch of settings including Cortana. If you are "paranoid" about security then switch to Tails and continue with Free Pascal :) The only flaw I see in Windows is the lack of information (source code, etc) from MS to actually see what they are sending in/out and how may "government" back doors are there, if...

Kind regards

John Kour wrote:
Hi all,

I was wondering which version of windows I should use to develop apps.

I currently use Win7 but I am temped to move to Win10.

However, I think it is better to stay with an older version as many users and (potential) customers don't upgrade to the latest win.

What do you think about this?

Thanks in advance.

John

Besides "MS will drop support for older versions sooner or later", "I didn't have problems with it" and "I'm not paranoid about privacy", anything else? Fast and reliable, Windows XP still is. In fact any Windows XP out there flies compared to anything after Vista... You don't have idea how many companies are still running XP.
Alexandre Machado

Posts: 1,754
Registered: 8/10/13
Re: Which version of Windows do you use for development?
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  Posted: Jan 21, 2016 3:18 PM   in response to: Uros Cotman in response to: Uros Cotman
Uros Cotman wrote:
I am happy for you. Good luck. You don't need more than Delphi7 and a dial up internet.^^ I am aware that many people use "good old' technology and it suits them just fine. Some people like old diesel cars from the 80's some like "newer", possibly electric cars. But I am not comparing M$ product to that, so please do not start a full on debate about that.

My first reply was to the author and my experience about Win10.You know how it goes, to each his own.

Sorry! I didn't know that I should not ask you what Win 10 brought to you in terms of productivity, a genuine curiosity, besides "it works for me" and "your OS is old"...
I don't use Delphi 7, BTW. For development I use XE2 in one project and Delphi 10 Seattle in all others. I have testing VMs from WinXP to Win10. Again, sorry for not trading privacy and productivity by new fancy stuff from Redmond (which you refers to as M$).
A side note, invoking Hodges law: car comparisons loose! ;-)
Arthur Hoornweg

Posts: 414
Registered: 6/2/98
Re: Which version of Windows do you use for development?
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  Posted: Jan 21, 2016 11:43 PM   in response to: Alexandre Machado in response to: Alexandre Machado
Alexandre Machado wrote:

Sorry! I didn't know that I should not ask you what Win 10 brought to you in terms of productivity, a genuine curiosity


Well, since Windows 10 is supposed to be the last version of Windows, isn't now the perfect time to upgrade and get it over with once and for all?

Alexandre Machado

Posts: 1,754
Registered: 8/10/13
Re: Which version of Windows do you use for development?
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  Posted: Jan 25, 2016 1:29 PM   in response to: Arthur Hoornweg in response to: Arthur Hoornweg

Well, since Windows 10 is supposed to be the last version of Windows, isn't now the perfect time to upgrade and get it over with once and for all?

Is it?
Markus Humm

Posts: 5,113
Registered: 11/9/03
Re: Which version of Windows do you use for development?
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  Posted: Jan 25, 2016 1:36 PM   in response to: Alexandre Machado in response to: Alexandre Machado
Am 25.01.2016 um 22:29 schrieb Alexandre Machado:

Well, since Windows 10 is supposed to be the last version of Windows, isn't now the perfect time to upgrade and get it over with once and for all?

Is it?

Afaik MS has set a support end date for it as well, so it either can't
be the last or there will be no Windows after that date anymore ;-)

Greetings

Markus
Uros Cotman

Posts: 15
Registered: 3/27/05
Re: Which version of Windows do you use for development?
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  Posted: Jan 22, 2016 2:18 AM   in response to: Alexandre Machado in response to: Alexandre Machado
Alexandre,

no one is forcing anyone to do anything. Do whatever you please as I do. Car comparison was there to illustrate, that it is up to a personal preference. I tried to use short sentences to avoid confusion and misunderstanding.

Kind regards :)

Alexandre Machado wrote:
Uros Cotman wrote:
I am happy for you. Good luck. You don't need more than Delphi7 and a dial up internet.^^ I am aware that many people use "good old' technology and it suits them just fine. Some people like old diesel cars from the 80's some like "newer", possibly electric cars. But I am not comparing M$ product to that, so please do not start a full on debate about that.

My first reply was to the author and my experience about Win10.You know how it goes, to each his own.

Sorry! I didn't know that I should not ask you what Win 10 brought to you in terms of productivity, a genuine curiosity, besides "it works for me" and "your OS is old"...
I don't use Delphi 7, BTW. For development I use XE2 in one project and Delphi 10 Seattle in all others. I have testing VMs from WinXP to Win10. Again, sorry for not trading privacy and productivity by new fancy stuff from Redmond (which you refers to as M$).
A side note, invoking Hodges law: car comparisons loose! ;-)
Mike Margerum

Posts: 590
Registered: 12/1/99
Re: Which version of Windows do you use for development? [Edit]
Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this thread Reply
  Posted: Jan 22, 2016 6:54 AM   in response to: Alexandre Machado in response to: Alexandre Machado
Sorry! I didn't know that I should not ask you what Win 10 brought to you in terms of productivity, a genuine curiosity, besides "it works for me" and "your OS is old"...
I don't use Delphi 7, BTW. For development I use XE2 in one project and Delphi 10 Seattle in all others. I have testing VMs from WinXP to Win10. Again, sorry for not trading privacy and productivity by new fancy stuff from Redmond (which you refers to as M$).
A side note, invoking Hodges law: car comparisons loose! ;-)

Assuming a comparison to XP

Some of these were before windows 10

Mounting ISO files. Super useful to me.
Built in malware protection
Centralized wireless support
SSD Trim support
Better hardware detection / driver handling

Thats about it.
Alexandre Machado

Posts: 1,754
Registered: 8/10/13
Re: Which version of Windows do you use for development? [Edit]
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  Posted: Jan 25, 2016 1:27 PM   in response to: Mike Margerum in response to: Mike Margerum
Assuming a comparison to XP

Who said that I'm using XP?

Some of these were before windows 10

Mounting ISO files. Super useful to me.

Not important. I've always used better 3rd party software. Just like Windows build in zip file support (a bad joke).

Built in malware protection

I don't trust Windows machines with MS built in protection only. Do you? So, a 3rd party software is also required.

Centralized wireless support

Not important to me

SSD Trim support
Yes, nice.

Better hardware detection / driver handling
If your hardware is not supported by Win 8.1, yes

Thats about it.

Thanks!
John Kouraklis

Posts: 209
Registered: 3/10/01
Re: Which version of Windows do you use for development?
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  Posted: Jan 24, 2016 7:56 AM   in response to: John Kouraklis in response to: John Kouraklis
I installed Win10 to test and it is very fast. The IDE is very fast too and it's on a VM.

Something that happens, however, is when I run and debug an app, the IDE freezes and causes the whole system to stuck. I have to reset the VM.

Maybe I need to unstall Update 1 (Seattle)

John
Markus Humm

Posts: 5,113
Registered: 11/9/03
Re: Which version of Windows do you use for development?
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  Posted: Jan 25, 2016 1:37 PM   in response to: John Kouraklis in response to: John Kouraklis
Am 24.01.2016 um 16:56 schrieb John Kour:
I installed Win10 to test and it is very fast. The IDE is very fast too and it's on a VM.

Something that happens, however, is when I run and debug an app, the IDE freezes and causes the whole system to stuck. I have to reset the VM.

Maybe I need to unstall Update 1 (Seattle)

John

Hello,

what VM product and what platform is the app for?

Greetings

Markus
Rudy Velthuis (...


Posts: 7,731
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: Which version of Windows do you use for development?
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  Posted: Jan 26, 2016 6:06 PM   in response to: John Kouraklis in response to: John Kouraklis
John Kour wrote:

Hi all,

I was wondering which version of windows I should use to develop apps.

I currently use Win7 but I am temped to move to Win10.

Both are fine. I needed some time getting used to the rather blinding
looks of Win10, though, until I found a way of making everything a
little less white.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

Denniston's Law: Virtue is its own punishment.
Achim Kalwa

Posts: 70
Registered: 10/22/99
Re: Which version of Windows do you use for development?
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  Posted: Jan 27, 2016 4:15 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:

Both are fine. I needed some time getting used to the rather blinding
looks of Win10, though, until I found a way of making everything a
little less white.

And how did you do that? Please explain.

Achim
Rudy Velthuis (...


Posts: 7,731
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Re: Which version of Windows do you use for development?
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  Posted: Jan 27, 2016 12:44 PM   in response to: Achim Kalwa in response to: Achim Kalwa
Achim Kalwa wrote:

Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:

Both are fine. I needed some time getting used to the rather
blinding looks of Win10, though, until I found a way of making
everything a little less white.

And how did you do that? Please explain.

Hmmm... I can't remember exactly. I searched for ways to colour parts
in Win10 (frame, title bar, etc.), and found some hints on Google. I
actually forgot what it was (and can't currently look back either,
since that computer is not here).

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Let us change our traditional attitude to the construction of
programs. Instead of imagining that our main task is to
instruct a computer what to do, let us concentrate rather on
explaining to human beings what we want a computer to do."
-- Donald Knuth
John Kouraklis

Posts: 209
Registered: 3/10/01
Re: Which version of Windows do you use for development?
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  Posted: Jan 27, 2016 1:18 PM   in response to: Achim Kalwa in response to: Achim Kalwa
Achim Kalwa wrote:
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:

Both are fine. I needed some time getting used to the rather blinding
looks of Win10, though, until I found a way of making everything a
little less white.

And how did you do that? Please explain.

Achim

Yes, I'd like to know as well. It seems that on Win10 Pro, I can't change the color of the windows border. Any help please???
Van Swofford

Posts: 397
Registered: 6/28/03
Re: Which version of Windows do you use for development?
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  Posted: Jan 27, 2016 7:37 PM   in response to: John Kouraklis in response to: John Kouraklis
John Kour wrote:

Yes, I'd like to know as well. It seems that on Win10 Pro, I can't
change the color of the windows border. Any help please???

Right click on the desktop, select Personalize from the popup menu,
then select Colors from the menu on the left of the setting dialog.
Select an accent color for your title bar, then below the color
selector switch on the "Show color on Start, taskbar, action center,
and title bar". That'll get rid of a lot of whiteness. The blue that
is third column, second row, seems to be fairly close to the standard
blue from Windows past.

--
Cheers,
Van

"Good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad
judgment." - Will Rogers
Carl-Henrik Nil...

Posts: 53
Registered: 3/26/02
Re: Which version of Windows do you use for development?
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  Posted: Jan 28, 2016 12:05 AM   in response to: Van Swofford in response to: Van Swofford
Van Swofford wrote:
Select an accent color for your title bar, then below the color
selector switch on the "Show color on Start, taskbar, action center,
and title bar". That'll get rid of a lot of whiteness.

The thing is that it seems that everybody doesn't have the "title bar" part and
the darn whiteness still persists. I don't have that part, and yes - my Windows Home is fully updated.
--
C-H
Achim Kalwa

Posts: 70
Registered: 10/22/99
Re: Which version of Windows do you use for development?
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  Posted: Jan 28, 2016 12:34 AM   in response to: Carl-Henrik Nil... in response to: Carl-Henrik Nil...
Hello,

The thing is that it seems that everybody doesn't have the "title bar" part and
the darn whiteness still persists. I don't have that part, and yes - my Windows Home is fully updated.

You need Windows 10 Version 1511 (Build 10586) or higher to have the
"title bar" color option.

Achim
John Kouraklis

Posts: 209
Registered: 3/10/01
Re: Which version of Windows do you use for development?
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  Posted: Jan 28, 2016 4:25 AM   in response to: Achim Kalwa in response to: Achim Kalwa
Achim Kalwa wrote:
Hello,

The thing is that it seems that everybody doesn't have the "title bar" part and
the darn whiteness still persists. I don't have that part, and yes - my Windows Home is fully updated.

You need Windows 10 Version 1511 (Build 10586) or higher to have the
"title bar" color option.

Achim

That's the trick. I have 10240.

But I don't get it....my windows is genuine so I would expect it to be up to date.
Lajos Juhasz

Posts: 801
Registered: 3/14/14
Re: Which version of Windows do you use for development?
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  Posted: Jan 28, 2016 7:58 AM   in response to: John Kouraklis in response to: John Kouraklis
John Kour wrote:

That's the trick. I have 10240.

But I don't get it....my windows is genuine so I would expect it to
be up to date.

I know the feeling. On two computers I have had to click to install
some windows updates (check for updates and click to install them).

A fair warning on my laptop without SSD took almost 2 hours to
complete, on a desktop with SSD only about 45 minutes.

david hoke

Posts: 616
Registered: 2/9/07
Re: Which version of Windows do you use for development?
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  Posted: Jan 28, 2016 8:05 AM   in response to: Lajos Juhasz in response to: Lajos Juhasz
Lajos Juhasz wrote:

A fair warning on my laptop without SSD took almost 2 hours to
complete, on a desktop with SSD only about 45 minutes.

For Win7(sp1 without any previous updates) in the past few days, it
took about 22 hours - and then most of them failed and were apparently
reverted. (I had a colleague report a similar experience in recent
weeks.) And only about 2 hours of that was download time. This is a
fairly beefy machine with 64Gb and an SSD as primary drive...

IIRC, it indicated 1221229 update actions to be applied (it did not
tell me how many wound up being reverted, but reviewing the history of
updates, quite a few failed.)
Rudy Velthuis (...


Posts: 7,731
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Re: Which version of Windows do you use for development?
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  Posted: Jan 28, 2016 3:43 PM   in response to: Achim Kalwa in response to: Achim Kalwa
Achim Kalwa wrote:

Hello,

The thing is that it seems that everybody doesn't have the "title
bar" part and the darn whiteness still persists. I don't have that
part, and yes - my Windows Home is fully updated.

You need Windows 10 Version 1511 (Build 10586) or higher to have the
"title bar" color option.

I had to enter something in the registry to get the colours. Does that
build have a UI for that, or do I have that build you mean? I can't
check right now, because that computer is not here.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

Lieberman's Law: Everybody lies; but it doesn't matter, since
nobody listens.
Adem Meda

Posts: 495
Registered: 12/28/98
Re: Which version of Windows do you use for development?
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  Posted: Jan 29, 2016 9:47 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:

Achim Kalwa wrote:

You need Windows 10 Version 1511 (Build 10586) or higher to have the
"title bar" color option.

I had to enter something in the registry to get the colours. Does that
build have a UI for that, or do I have that build you mean? I can't
check right now, because that computer is not here.

I recommend 'Winaero Tweaker'

http://winaero.com/comment.php?comment.news.1836

Quite useful.
Adem Meda

Posts: 495
Registered: 12/28/98
Re: Which version of Windows do you use for development?
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  Posted: Jan 29, 2016 9:43 AM   in response to: Achim Kalwa in response to: Achim Kalwa
Achim Kalwa wrote:

Hello,

The thing is that it seems that everybody doesn't have the "title bar" part
and the darn whiteness still persists. I don't have that part, and yes - my
Windows Home is fully updated.

You need Windows 10 Version 1511 (Build 10586) or higher to have the
"title bar" color option.

Thank you for sharing this.

It took me half an hour to upgrade install but I finally got rid of an
annoyance.
Quentin Correll


Posts: 2,412
Registered: 12/1/99
Re: Which version of Windows do you use for development?
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  Posted: Jan 27, 2016 11:21 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy,

| | I currently use Win7 but I am temped to move to Win10.
|
| Both are fine.

Not the case for me. Win10 was a minor disaster on/in my
system-environment. I ended up restoring to Win7-64.

I'm MUCH happier now! <g>

[Hi! Haven't seen your sig for a while. How are the boys doing?]

--

Q -- XanaNews 1.19.1.372 - 2016-01-27 11:18:37
Rudy Velthuis (...


Posts: 7,731
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Re: Which version of Windows do you use for development?
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  Posted: Jan 27, 2016 12:45 PM   in response to: Quentin Correll in response to: Quentin Correll
Quentin Correll wrote:

Rudy,

| I currently use Win7 but I am temped to move to Win10.

Both are fine.

Not the case for me. Win10 was a minor disaster on/in my
system-environment. I ended up restoring to Win7-64.

Ok. I guess I had the TeamB version (the original one, without the
bugs). <g>

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

Rudin's Law: In a crisis that forces a choice to be made among
alternative courses of action, people tend to choose the worst
possible course.

Alexandre Machado

Posts: 1,754
Registered: 8/10/13
Re: Which version of Windows do you use for development?
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  Posted: Jan 27, 2016 12:55 PM   in response to: Quentin Correll in response to: Quentin Correll
Not the case for me. Win10 was a minor disaster on/in my
system-environment. I ended up restoring to Win7-64.

I'm MUCH happier now! <g>

By the way, the bad taste of designers at Microsoft is something. They really should hire some ex-Apple designers.
MacOS and all Apple stuff get prettier at each version. Win 7 is much more elegant and well designed than Win 8 and it can't even be compared to the horrific Win 10.

Look at this masterpiece of design: http://s11.postimg.org/ggs3kgwtf/w104.png

This was probably created by a 3 y.o. MS designer son. This plague just took control of MS: Visual Studio looks terrible, TFS is awful. A few MS software still resist.
John Kouraklis

Posts: 209
Registered: 3/10/01
Re: Which version of Windows do you use for development?
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  Posted: Jan 27, 2016 1:16 PM   in response to: Alexandre Machado in response to: Alexandre Machado
Alexandre Machado wrote:
Not the case for me. Win10 was a minor disaster on/in my
system-environment. I ended up restoring to Win7-64.

I'm MUCH happier now! <g>

By the way, the bad taste of designers at Microsoft is something. They really should hire some ex-Apple designers.
MacOS and all Apple stuff get prettier at each version. Win 7 is much more elegant and well designed than Win 8 and it can't even be compared to the horrific Win 10.

Look at this masterpiece of design: http://s11.postimg.org/ggs3kgwtf/w104.png

This was probably created by a 3 y.o. MS designer son. This plague just took control of MS: Visual Studio looks terrible, TFS is awful. A few MS software still resist.

It's the madness about the flat-UI designs. Apple introduced this I believe with the iOS
Rudy Velthuis (...


Posts: 7,731
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Re: Which version of Windows do you use for development?
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  Posted: Jan 28, 2016 3:32 PM   in response to: John Kouraklis in response to: John Kouraklis
John Kour wrote:

It's the madness about the flat-UI designs. Apple introduced this I
believe with the iOS

Flat UI is already slowly being replaced by almost-flat, which combines
the advantages of flat design (a clean UI) with something a little less
minimalistic.

Example: http://speckyboy.com/2015/08/05/almost-flat-design-web-trend/

I bet we'll see that in new versions of Win10 too.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

Nixon's Theorem: The man who can smile when things go wrong has
thought of someone he can blame it on.
Anders Isaksson


Posts: 30
Registered: 4/15/00
Re: Which version of Windows do you use for development?
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  Posted: Jan 29, 2016 2:44 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:


I must be too old for this - all the articles about 'flat design' read
like sarcasm to me.

It reminds me of an art critic writing a lyrical two-page essay on a
motorcycle driving chain hanging on two nails from the roof...

What is wrong with being able to identify action elements in a
dialog/web page? Why do I have to go 'link hunting' to get something
done?

Why, oh why, should every new computer program look like a [badly
designed] web page?

OK, I'll creep back into my hole now...
Adem Meda

Posts: 495
Registered: 12/28/98
Re: Which version of Windows do you use for development?
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  Posted: Jan 29, 2016 9:59 AM   in response to: Anders Isaksson in response to: Anders Isaksson
Anders Isaksson wrote:

What is wrong with being able to identify action elements in a
dialog/web page? Why do I have to go 'link hunting' to get something
done?

I suspect it is because as they are targetting less and less powerful platforms
(handhelds etc. where GPU power is never as good as a good PC), they are trying
to use UIs that are less demanding on that front --what's worse, they are
selling it as new fashion.
Quentin Correll


Posts: 2,412
Registered: 12/1/99
Re: Which version of Windows do you use for development?
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  Posted: Jan 29, 2016 11:45 AM   in response to: Anders Isaksson in response to: Anders Isaksson
Anders,

| Why, oh why, should every new computer program look like a [badly
| designed] web page?

Distressing, isn't it?!

--

Q -- XanaNews 1.19.1.372 - 2016-01-29 11:45:17
John Kouraklis

Posts: 209
Registered: 3/10/01
Re: Which version of Windows do you use for development?
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  Posted: Jan 29, 2016 3:24 PM   in response to: Anders Isaksson in response to: Anders Isaksson
Anders Isaksson wrote:

Why, oh why, should every new computer program look like a [badly
designed] web page?

Haha...and I would add...why every desktop pc should look like a tablet?

Although I like Apple, I must say they created lots of troubles on this :-)
Dan Barclay

Posts: 889
Registered: 11/9/03
Re: Which version of Windows do you use for development?
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  Posted: Jan 29, 2016 3:41 PM   in response to: Anders Isaksson in response to: Anders Isaksson
Anders Isaksson wrote:

Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:


I must be too old for this - all the articles about 'flat design' read
like sarcasm to me.

It reminds me of an art critic writing a lyrical two-page essay on a
motorcycle driving chain hanging on two nails from the roof...

What is wrong with being able to identify action elements in a
dialog/web page? Why do I have to go 'link hunting' to get something
done?

Why, oh why, should every new computer program look like a [badly
designed] web page?

OK, I'll creep back into my hole now...

I'm pretty sure it's because you have to "change something" in order to
"have something new" and be able to call the last stuff "old
technology". Sometimes you can even get by with just changing waht you
call it.

It's the only thing that keeps "technology leaders" leading <cough>.

Everything is data and procedures... even objects.

(psssst... don't tell anybody that Windows "programs" are just
subroutines with a couple of parameters)

How many ways can you design a word processor? Generic user interface?

Put a different shape do-dad on the hood of a car and you've got a new
model.

Dan
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: Which version of Windows do you use for development?
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  Posted: Feb 1, 2016 2:03 PM   in response to: Anders Isaksson in response to: Anders Isaksson
Anders Isaksson wrote:


I must be too old for this - all the articles about 'flat design' read
like sarcasm to me.

It reminds me of an art critic writing a lyrical two-page essay on a
motorcycle driving chain hanging on two nails from the roof...

What is wrong with being able to identify action elements in a
dialog/web page? Why do I have to go 'link hunting' to get something
done?

I actually think that a rather simple design makes sense, but (as so
often), not too simple. Navigation elements should still be
recognizable as such, but they don't have to look like a (skeuomorphic)
button with rounded edges, shadows, highlights, etc.

In other words: skeuomorphic elements often look a bit too much. The
reaction was flat design, which is often a bit too much in the opposite
direction. I guess that in the end, we will see something simple, but
not too simple, IOW the golden middle between too flat and too
realistic.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Science is the great antidote to the poison of enthusiasm and
superstition."
-- Adam Smith
Anders Isaksson


Posts: 30
Registered: 4/15/00
Re: Which version of Windows do you use for development?
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  Posted: Feb 23, 2016 3:02 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:

I guess that in the end, we will see something
simple, but not too simple, IOW the golden middle between too flat
and too realistic.

You sound like a Swede - we have this word "lagom" which means "not too
much and not too little", and in every debate about anything thinkable
you can be sure that "lagom" will be used in describing the goal.

The problem with that word is that it really doesn't mean anything at
all, as each person has his own definition of what "lagom" is, for the
subject at hand...
Rudy Velthuis (...


Posts: 7,731
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Re: Which version of Windows do you use for development?
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  Posted: Feb 23, 2016 5:29 AM   in response to: Anders Isaksson in response to: Anders Isaksson
Anders Isaksson wrote:

Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:

I guess that in the end, we will see something
simple, but not too simple, IOW the golden middle between too flat
and too realistic.

You sound like a Swede - we have this word "lagom" which means "not
too much and not too little", and in every debate about anything
thinkable you can be sure that "lagom" will be used in describing the
goal.

The problem with that word is that it really doesn't mean anything at
all, as each person has his own definition of what "lagom" is, for the
subject at hand...

Good, but I and not a Swede, and I don't use the word.

We will see something inbetween, sometimes closer to flat, sometimes
closer to skeuo.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"There are two ways of constructing a software design. One
way is to make it so simple that there are obviously no
deficiencies. And the other way is to make it so complicated
that there are no obvious deficiencies.”
-- C.A.R. Hoare
Achim Kalwa

Posts: 70
Registered: 10/22/99
Re: Which version of Windows do you use for development?
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  Posted: Jan 28, 2016 12:43 AM   in response to: Alexandre Machado in response to: Alexandre Machado
Hello,

Look at this masterpiece of design: http://s11.postimg.org/ggs3kgwtf/w104.png

Not only the design is ugly and takes several seconds to start, the app
also has problems with simple math:

Just a simple case:

1 + 2 x 3 =

should give 7 (respecting order of operations), but it results to 9.
Now switch the mode to "Scientific" and try again:

1 + 2 x 3 =

Now the result is 7.

Not very reliable.

Achim
Lajos Juhasz

Posts: 801
Registered: 3/14/14
Re: Which version of Windows do you use for development?
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  Posted: Jan 28, 2016 7:46 AM   in response to: Achim Kalwa in response to: Achim Kalwa
Achim Kalwa wrote:

Hello,

Look at this masterpiece of design:
http://s11.postimg.org/ggs3kgwtf/w104.png

Not only the design is ugly and takes several seconds to start, the
app also has problems with simple math:

Just a simple case:

1 + 2 x 3 =

should give 7 (respecting order of operations), but it results to 9.
Now switch the mode to "Scientific" and try again:

1 + 2 x 3 =

Now the result is 7.

Not very reliable.

Achim

I managed to reproduce the bug on Windows 8.1. Maybe in the USA this is
the correct result?
david hoke

Posts: 616
Registered: 2/9/07
Re: Which version of Windows do you use for development?
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  Posted: Jan 28, 2016 7:57 AM   in response to: Lajos Juhasz in response to: Lajos Juhasz
Lajos Juhasz wrote:

I managed to reproduce the bug on Windows 8.1. Maybe in the USA this
is the correct result?

Win 7 also (standard = 9, scientific = 7 for 1+2*3)

and WinXP SP2...

interesting...

a very non-thorough check suggests that standard mode executes each
operation and displays result at entry of next operator, whereas
scientific mode delays if next operator is of higher precedence...
david hoke

Posts: 616
Registered: 2/9/07
Re: Which version of Windows do you use for development?
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  Posted: Jan 28, 2016 9:52 AM   in response to: david hoke in response to: david hoke
david hoke wrote:

Lajos Juhasz wrote:

I managed to reproduce the bug on Windows 8.1. Maybe in the USA this
is the correct result?

Win 7 also (standard = 9, scientific = 7 for 1+2*3)

and WinXP SP2...

interesting...

a very non-thorough check suggests that standard mode executes each
operation and displays result at entry of next operator, whereas
scientific mode delays if next operator is of higher precedence...

And FWIW, very similar to what happens on
a)my tradeshow freebie basic calculator (standard... 1+2*3 = 9)
b)my casio fx-260 (scientific?... 1+2*3 = 7)

I doubt either of them was made in the USA...
casio packaging says made in China, probably a good guess that the
trade show freebie was too.
Rudy Velthuis (...


Posts: 7,731
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Re: Which version of Windows do you use for development?
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  Posted: Feb 2, 2016 8:04 AM   in response to: david hoke in response to: david hoke
david hoke wrote:

Lajos Juhasz wrote:

I managed to reproduce the bug on Windows 8.1. Maybe in the USA this
is the correct result?

Win 7 also (standard = 9, scientific = 7 for 1+2*3)

When is the last time you people used a simple pocket calculator?
standard producing 9 is expected, and scientific producing 7 is
expected as well. If this worked differently, it would be a bug.

The current behaviour is exactly as it should be! It is NOT A BUG! It
mimics a real (standard) pocket calculator and produces exactly what it
should.

Simple calculator:

Type 3 --> 3 is displayed
type + --> 3 is displayed
type 4 --> 4 is displayed (and perhaps 3 + in an extra small display)
type x --> 3 + 4 is calculated, 7 is displayed
type 5 --> 5 is displayed (and perhaps 7 x in an extra small display)
type = --> 7 x 5 is calculated, 35 is displayed.

That is how most standard calculators work. But scientific ones can use
proper expressions, and they understand operator precedence. So then,
you expect 23, not 35.
--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"A computer once beat me at chess, but it was no match for me at
kick boxing." -- Emo Philips
david hoke

Posts: 616
Registered: 2/9/07
Re: Which version of Windows do you use for development?
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  Posted: Feb 2, 2016 8:28 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:

When is the last time you people used a simple pocket calculator?

For me, shortly after the post you replied to, as reflected in a
subsequent post.
Quentin Correll


Posts: 2,412
Registered: 12/1/99
Re: Which version of Windows do you use for development?
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  Posted: Feb 2, 2016 10:18 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy,

| The current behaviour is exactly as it should be! It is NOT A BUG!

+1 !

--

Q -- XanaNews 1.19.1.372 - 2016-02-02 10:18:36
David Erbas-White

Posts: 202
Registered: 10/11/99
Re: Which version of Windows do you use for development?
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  Posted: Jan 28, 2016 8:18 AM   in response to: Lajos Juhasz in response to: Lajos Juhasz
On 1/28/2016 7:46 AM, Lajos Juhasz wrote:

I managed to reproduce the bug on Windows 8.1. Maybe in the USA this is
the correct result?

Only in public schools... And only after asking the numbers how they
'feel' about it...<G>

David Erbas-White
Van Swofford

Posts: 397
Registered: 6/28/03
Re: Which version of Windows do you use for development?
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  Posted: Jan 28, 2016 12:33 PM   in response to: David Erbas-White in response to: David Erbas-White
David Erbas-White wrote:

Only in public schools... And only after asking the numbers how they
'feel' about it...<G>

LOL! Ain't it the truth!

--
Cheers,
Van

"Good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad
judgment." - Will Rogers
Dan Barclay

Posts: 889
Registered: 11/9/03
Re: Which version of Windows do you use for development?
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  Posted: Jan 28, 2016 1:18 PM   in response to: David Erbas-White in response to: David Erbas-White
David Erbas-White wrote:

On 1/28/2016 7:46 AM, Lajos Juhasz wrote:

I managed to reproduce the bug on Windows 8.1. Maybe in the USA
this is the correct result?

Only in public schools... And only after asking the numbers how they
'feel' about it...<G>

Be careful how you ask the odd numbers.
There could be trouble in it for you.

Dan
Rudy Velthuis (...


Posts: 7,731
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Re: Which version of Windows do you use for development?
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  Posted: Feb 2, 2016 8:07 AM   in response to: David Erbas-White in response to: David Erbas-White
David Erbas-White wrote:

On 1/28/2016 7:46 AM, Lajos Juhasz wrote:

I managed to reproduce the bug on Windows 8.1. Maybe in the USA
this is the correct result?

Only in public schools...

Actually, it is correct everywhere on earth. IT IS NOT A BUG. Have you
guys never used a normal pocket calculator? They don't "do"
expressions, they simply take operators as they come.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Look at you in war. There has never been a just one, never
an honorable one, on the part of the instigator of the war."
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Lajos Juhasz

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Re: Which version of Windows do you use for development?
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  Posted: Feb 2, 2016 9:55 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:

David Erbas-White wrote:

On 1/28/2016 7:46 AM, Lajos Juhasz wrote:

I managed to reproduce the bug on Windows 8.1. Maybe in the USA
this is the correct result?

Only in public schools...

Actually, it is correct everywhere on earth. IT IS NOT A BUG. Have you
guys never used a normal pocket calculator? They don't "do"
expressions, they simply take operators as they come.

All the smple pocket calculator I've used doesn't allowed me to enter
the expression as windows calculator allows. There every operation
displays the result and I don't see what is entered previously. Then
that is the expected result. Here calc doesn't display the intermediate
results. I believe calc in XP worked as an old fashioned pocket
calculator.
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: Which version of Windows do you use for development?
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  Posted: Jan 28, 2016 3:39 PM   in response to: Lajos Juhasz in response to: Lajos Juhasz
Lajos Juhasz wrote:

I managed to reproduce the bug on Windows 8.1.

It is not a bug, it is correct. The answer of 9 is expected from a
simple pocket calculator (standard view), but not from a scientific
calculator which allows entire expressions to be entered.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Statistics is like a bikini. What they reveal is suggestive.
What they conceal is vital."
-- Arthur Koestler
Quentin Correll


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Re: Which version of Windows do you use for development?
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  Posted: Jan 29, 2016 11:47 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy,

| The answer of 9 is expected from a
| simple pocket calculator (standard view), but not from a scientific
| calculator which allows entire expressions to be entered.

RPN.

--

Q -- XanaNews 1.19.1.372 - 2016-01-29 11:47:37
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: Which version of Windows do you use for development?
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  Posted: Feb 1, 2016 2:04 PM   in response to: Quentin Correll in response to: Quentin Correll
Quentin Correll wrote:

Rudy,

The answer of 9 is expected from a
simple pocket calculator (standard view), but not from a scientific
calculator which allows entire expressions to be entered.

RPN.

That is yet another kind of calculator (e.g. HP). They remind me too
much of Forth.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who
inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing
government, they can exercise their constitutional right of
amending it, or exercise their revolutionary right to overthrow
it."
-- Abraham Lincoln
John Kaster


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Re: Which version of Windows do you use for development?
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  Posted: Feb 1, 2016 3:51 PM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:

They remind me too
much of Forth

Go, Forth! And multiply.

--
John Kaster http://johnkaster.wordpress.com
Software solutions
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: Which version of Windows do you use for development?
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  Posted: Feb 2, 2016 7:32 AM   in response to: John Kaster in response to: John Kaster
John Kaster wrote:

Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:

They remind me too
much of Forth

Go, Forth! And multiply.

: twenty 4 5 * ;

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"A non-virtual function says, you have to do this and you must
do it this way. A virtual function says you have to do this,
but you don't have to do it this way. That's their fundamental
difference." -- Scott Meyers
John Kaster


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Re: Which version of Windows do you use for development?
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  Posted: Feb 2, 2016 8:38 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:

: twenty 4 5 * ;

;)

--
John Kaster http://johnkaster.wordpress.com
Software solutions
Quentin Correll


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Re: Which version of Windows do you use for development?
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  Posted: Feb 2, 2016 10:19 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy,

| That is yet another kind of calculator (e.g. HP). They remind me too
| much of Forth.

<chuckle>

--

Q -- XanaNews 1.19.1.372 - 2016-02-02 10:19:35
Dan Barclay

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Registered: 11/9/03
Re: Which version of Windows do you use for development?
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  Posted: Feb 1, 2016 3:19 PM   in response to: Quentin Correll in response to: Quentin Correll
Quentin Correll wrote:

Rudy,

The answer of 9 is expected from a
simple pocket calculator (standard view), but not from a scientific
calculator which allows entire expressions to be entered.

RPN.

RPN is the notation for stack based evaluation.

I haven't made a study of calculators, but HP is the one that first
comes to mind that used RPN as input. The HP35 came out when I was in
college... some of us couldn't exactly afford the $395USD for what is
now a $10 calculator.

EE problems (lots of trig) could be done quite easily with a slide rule
if you knew the shortcuts, and much faster, though with less precision.
Our batteries didn't die on us either.

Dan
David Erbas-White

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Re: Which version of Windows do you use for development?
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  Posted: Feb 1, 2016 3:47 PM   in response to: Dan Barclay in response to: Dan Barclay
On 2/1/2016 3:19 PM, Dan Barclay wrote:
Quentin Correll wrote:

Rudy,

The answer of 9 is expected from a
simple pocket calculator (standard view), but not from a scientific
calculator which allows entire expressions to be entered.

RPN.

RPN is the notation for stack based evaluation.

On the other hand, I owe pretty much my entire career to HP calculators.
Started using them in the 70's, I was heavily involved with
customizing a lot of their machines in the 80's and 90's, and to this
day am doing work that sprang forth from my work with the HP-41.

David Erbas-White
Van Swofford

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Re: Which version of Windows do you use for development?
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  Posted: Feb 2, 2016 9:12 AM   in response to: David Erbas-White in response to: David Erbas-White
David Erbas-White wrote:

On the other hand, I owe pretty much my entire career to HP
calculators. Started using them in the 70's, I was heavily
involved with customizing a lot of their machines in the 80's and
90's, and to this day am doing work that sprang forth from my work
with the HP-41.

Cool. I bought an HP 45 when I started college. Took $400 that would
otherwise have been spent on flying, but it was a great tool. Had to
dump it in the mid-80s when the battery wouldn't charge and I couldn't
find a replacement. Bought an HP 15C, which is still my main
calculator today. I got an emulator for my iPhone so now I'm never
without it. :-)

--
Cheers,
Van

"Good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad
judgment." - Will Rogers
Quentin Correll


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Re: Which version of Windows do you use for development?
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  Posted: Feb 2, 2016 10:29 AM   in response to: Van Swofford in response to: Van Swofford
Van,

| Bought an HP 15C, which is still my main calculator today.

Ditto!

[Doing any flying these days?]

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Q -- XanaNews 1.19.1.372 - 2016-02-02 10:28:41

Van Swofford

Posts: 397
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Re: Which version of Windows do you use for development?
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  Posted: Feb 2, 2016 12:24 PM   in response to: Quentin Correll in response to: Quentin Correll
Quentin Correll wrote:

Van,

Bought an HP 15C, which is still my main calculator today.

Ditto!

[Doing any flying these days?]

I wish, but no. I'm afraid I might be done. :-(

--
Cheers,
Van

"Good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad
judgment." - Will Rogers
Quentin Correll


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Re: Which version of Windows do you use for development?
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  Posted: Feb 3, 2016 11:35 AM   in response to: Van Swofford in response to: Van Swofford
Van,

| I'm afraid I might be done. :-(

Me too. Flying has gotten much too expensive for me. <sigh>

--

Q -- XanaNews 1.19.1.372 - 2016-02-03 11:34:51
Quentin Correll


Posts: 2,412
Registered: 12/1/99
Re: Which version of Windows do you use for development?
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  Posted: Feb 2, 2016 10:27 AM   in response to: David Erbas-White in response to: David Erbas-White
David,

| and to this day am doing work that sprang forth from my work with the
HP-41.

My HP-41 is in a box in the closet somewhere.

I'm still using my HP 15C, daily.

--

Q -- XanaNews 1.19.1.372 - 2016-02-02 10:25:15

Quentin Correll


Posts: 2,412
Registered: 12/1/99
Re: Which version of Windows do you use for development?
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  Posted: Feb 2, 2016 10:24 AM   in response to: Dan Barclay in response to: Dan Barclay
Dan,

| HP is the one that first comes to mind that used RPN as input.
| The HP35 came out when I was in college...

I still have mine, bought when they were FIRST announced. I had to go
by HP in Cupertino (R.I.P.) to get it. And it still works!

--

Q -- XanaNews 1.19.1.372 - 2016-02-02 10:20:44
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: Which version of Windows do you use for development?
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  Posted: Jan 28, 2016 3:38 PM   in response to: Achim Kalwa in response to: Achim Kalwa
Achim Kalwa wrote:

Just a simple case:

1 + 2 x 3 =

should give 7 (respecting order of operations), but it results to 9.

Well, that also happens on almsot every other calculator. If you type 1
+ 2 and then the next operator, no matter which, 1 + 2 is calculated
and becomes the new left operand. Try it on other calculators and
you'll see what I mean.

So no, on a pocket calculator it should give 9. That is expected.

Only on calculators in which you can enter entire expressions, with
mathematical operator precedence, it should give 7.
--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"I really hate this damned machine
I wish that they would sell it.
It never does quite what I want
But only what I tell it."
Quentin Correll


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Re: Which version of Windows do you use for development?
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  Posted: Jan 29, 2016 11:50 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy,

| Only on calculators in which you can enter entire expressions, with
| mathematical operator precedence, it should give 7.

Somewhere I have a very old calculator that allows one to chose between
using "Normal" or RPN.

--

Q -- XanaNews 1.19.1.372 - 2016-01-29 11:48:51
John Kouraklis

Posts: 209
Registered: 3/10/01
Re: Which version of Windows do you use for development?
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  Posted: Jan 27, 2016 1:15 PM   in response to: Quentin Correll in response to: Quentin Correll
Quentin Correll wrote:
Rudy,

| | I currently use Win7 but I am temped to move to Win10.
|
| Both are fine.

Not the case for me. Win10 was a minor disaster on/in my
system-environment. I ended up restoring to Win7-64.

I'm MUCH happier now! <g>

[Hi! Haven't seen your sig for a while. How are the boys doing?]

--

Q -- XanaNews 1.19.1.372 - 2016-01-27 11:18:37

For me Win10 works perfectly and there are no bugs.

The problem I have is with the D10 IDE on Win10---That is buggy.
Quentin Correll


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Re: Which version of Windows do you use for development?
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  Posted: Jan 27, 2016 3:21 PM   in response to: John Kouraklis in response to: John Kouraklis
John,

| For me Win10 works perfectly and there are no bugs.

Good for you! Unfortunately that wasn't my experience.

--

Q -- XanaNews 1.19.1.372 - 2016-01-27 15:21:02
Markus Humm

Posts: 5,113
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Re: Which version of Windows do you use for development?
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  Posted: Jan 28, 2016 10:11 AM   in response to: John Kouraklis in response to: John Kouraklis
Am 27.01.2016 um 22:15 schrieb John Kour:
Quentin Correll wrote:
Rudy,

| | I currently use Win7 but I am temped to move to Win10.
|
| Both are fine.

Not the case for me. Win10 was a minor disaster on/in my
system-environment. I ended up restoring to Win7-64.

I'm MUCH happier now! <g>

[Hi! Haven't seen your sig for a while. How are the boys doing?]

--

Q -- XanaNews 1.19.1.372 - 2016-01-27 11:18:37

For me Win10 works perfectly and there are no bugs.

The problem I have is with the D10 IDE on Win10---That is buggy.

Hello,

what is buggy about that one?

Greetings

Markus
John Kouraklis

Posts: 209
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Re: Which version of Windows do you use for development?
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  Posted: Jan 28, 2016 12:47 PM   in response to: Markus Humm in response to: Markus Humm
Markus Humm wrote:
Am 27.01.2016 um 22:15 schrieb John Kour:
Quentin Correll wrote:
Rudy,

| | I currently use Win7 but I am temped to move to Win10.
|
| Both are fine.

Not the case for me. Win10 was a minor disaster on/in my
system-environment. I ended up restoring to Win7-64.

I'm MUCH happier now! <g>

[Hi! Haven't seen your sig for a while. How are the boys doing?]

--

Q -- XanaNews 1.19.1.372 - 2016-01-27 11:18:37

For me Win10 works perfectly and there are no bugs.

The problem I have is with the D10 IDE on Win10---That is buggy.

Hello,

what is buggy about that one?

Greetings

Markus

When I run with debug, many times IDE freezes randomly (while trying to load a dll or when starting threads) and the whole system becomes unstable. I can't even open the task manager to end IDE's process.

I have to restart the machine.
Carl-Henrik Nil...

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Registered: 3/26/02
Re: Which version of Windows do you use for development?
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  Posted: Jan 28, 2016 2:53 PM   in response to: John Kouraklis in response to: John Kouraklis
John Kour wrote:
When I run with debug, many times IDE freezes randomly (while trying to load a dll or when starting threads) and the whole system becomes unstable. I can't even open the task manager to end IDE's process.
I have to restart the machine.

And it's not just D10 Seattle that has this problem. See for example:
https://forums.embarcadero.com/thread.jspa?threadID=119617&tstart=15

A real toughie to resolve I imagine, since only some users are affected.
--
C-H
John Kouraklis

Posts: 209
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Re: Which version of Windows do you use for development?
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  Posted: Jan 28, 2016 5:56 PM   in response to: Carl-Henrik Nil... in response to: Carl-Henrik Nil...
Carl-Henrik Nilsson wrote:
John Kour wrote:
When I run with debug, many times IDE freezes randomly (while trying to load a dll or when starting threads) and the whole system becomes unstable. I can't even open the task manager to end IDE's process.
I have to restart the machine.

And it's not just D10 Seattle that has this problem. See for example:
https://forums.embarcadero.com/thread.jspa?threadID=119617&tstart=15

A real toughie to resolve I imagine, since only some users are affected.
--
C-H

Thanks Carl-Henrik for point this out. I've posted a question to that forum :-)
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