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Thread: Licensing question: Сan I use Delphi for building Delphi-like IDE?


This question is answered. Helpful answers available: 1. Correct answers available: 1.


Permlink Replies: 35 - Last Post: Nov 23, 2015 5:28 PM Last Post By: John Kaster
Nick Dee

Posts: 11
Registered: 8/1/05
Licensing question: Сan I use Delphi for building Delphi-like IDE?  
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  Posted: Nov 19, 2015 10:32 AM
1. I want to use sources from \source\ToolsAPI to make my IDE compatible with third-party components
2. Components will be linked directly to exe.
3. There will be form designer with components library, code editor and object inspector.
4. Form designer will use all property editors developed by Delphi-Team and by third-party components developers (using ToolsAPI).
5. Forms will be saved to dfm (and loaded) using standard functions

It will be something like this: [http://econtrol.ru/images/form_design_big.jpg]

Questions:
1. It is voilation of license?
2. If yes, please post details here, with concrete text from license (XE2, XE10).
Robert Love

Posts: 155
Registered: 5/3/07
Re: Licensing question: Сan I use Delphi for building Delphi-like IDE?
Helpful
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  Posted: Nov 19, 2015 10:42 AM   in response to: Nick Dee in response to: Nick Dee
Nick Dee wrote:
1. It is voilation of license?
2. If yes, please post details here, with concrete text from license (XE2, XE10).

XE10 License section: 2.2.6.1 Sublicensing of Redistributables.
If you build with packages you will not be able to redistribute the IDE packages that contain the toolsapi.
The only files you can redistribute are in the "Redist" folder.

5.2 RESTRICTIONS.
Licensee agrees not to use the Product to develop an application that is directly competitive to the Product or to any other Embarcadero products

Edited by: Robert Love on Nov 19, 2015 10:44 AM
Nick Dee

Posts: 11
Registered: 8/1/05
Re: Licensing question: Сan I use Delphi for building Delphi-like IDE?  
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  Posted: Nov 19, 2015 11:08 AM   in response to: Robert Love in response to: Robert Love
Thanks.

There is no packages at all, so section 2.2.6.1 does not applied here.
About not competition... ok, XE10 can't be used.

Robert Love wrote:
Nick Dee wrote:
1. It is voilation of license?
2. If yes, please post details here, with concrete text from license (XE2, XE10).

XE10 License section: 2.2.6.1 Sublicensing of Redistributables.
If you build with packages you will not be able to redistribute the IDE packages that contain the toolsapi.
The only files you can redistribute are in the "Redist" folder.

5.2 RESTRICTIONS.
Licensee agrees not to use the Product to develop an application that is directly competitive to the Product or to any other Embarcadero products

Edited by: Robert Love on Nov 19, 2015 10:44 AM
Jeff Overcash (...

Posts: 1,529
Registered: 9/23/99
Re: Licensing question: Сan I use Delphi for building Delphi-like IDE?  
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  Posted: Nov 19, 2015 2:14 PM   in response to: Nick Dee in response to: Nick Dee
Nick Dee wrote:
Thanks.

There is no packages at all, so section 2.2.6.1 does not applied here.

You'd have too, all the source needed is not htere in toolsapi.

About not competition... ok, XE10 can't be used.

Actually that has been in hte license since D1.

--
Jeff Overcash (TeamB)
(Please do not email me directly unless asked. Thank You)
Learning is finding out what you already know. Doing is demonstrating that you
know it. Teaching is reminding others that they know it as well as you. We are
all leaners, doers, teachers. (R Bach)
Josh Kelley

Posts: 75
Registered: 3/6/08
Re: Licensing question: Сan I use Delphi for building Delphi-like IDE?  
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  Posted: Nov 19, 2015 2:27 PM   in response to: Jeff Overcash (... in response to: Jeff Overcash (...
On 11/19/2015 5:14 PM, Jeff Overcash (TeamB) wrote:
Nick Dee wrote:
About not competition... ok, XE10 can't be used.

Actually that has been in hte license since D1.

Unless I'm missing something, the clause is not in the XE2 EULA:
http://edn.embarcadero.com/article/41512

It looks like it was added sometime between XE4 and XE7. (I don't have
the XE5 or XE6 installers handy and didn't see their EULAs online.)

--
Josh Kelley
Robert Love

Posts: 155
Registered: 5/3/07
Re: Licensing question: Сan I use Delphi for building Delphi-like IDE?  
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  Posted: Nov 19, 2015 3:34 PM   in response to: Jeff Overcash (... in response to: Jeff Overcash (...
Jeff Overcash (TeamB) wrote:
About not competition... ok, XE10 can't be used.

Actually that has been in hte license since D1.

I believe your wrong, I can't find it in the XE2 license.
http://edn.embarcadero.com/article/41512
Nick Dee

Posts: 11
Registered: 8/1/05
Re: Licensing question: Сan I use Delphi for building Delphi-like IDE?  
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  Posted: Nov 20, 2015 1:54 AM   in response to: Jeff Overcash (... in response to: Jeff Overcash (...
Jeff Overcash (TeamB) wrote:
Nick Dee wrote:
Thanks.

There is no packages at all, so section 2.2.6.1 does not applied here.

You'd have too, all the source needed is not htere in toolsapi.
You are right. "\source\Property Editors" used too. But this is does not matter. Seems that license allows to use any sources.
Packages not used at all.


About not competition... ok, XE10 can't be used.

Actually that has been in hte license since D1.
Don't see it in XE2, so It seems suitable to me.


--
Jeff Overcash (TeamB)
(Please do not email me directly unless asked. Thank You)
Learning is finding out what you already know. Doing is demonstrating that you
know it. Teaching is reminding others that they know it as well as you. We are
all leaners, doers, teachers. (R Bach)
Jeff Overcash (...

Posts: 1,529
Registered: 9/23/99
Re: Licensing question: Сan I use Delphi for building Delphi-like IDE?  
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  Posted: Nov 20, 2015 10:04 AM   in response to: Nick Dee in response to: Nick Dee
Nick Dee wrote:
Jeff Overcash (TeamB) wrote:
Nick Dee wrote:
Thanks.

There is no packages at all, so section 2.2.6.1 does not applied here.
You'd have too, all the source needed is not htere in toolsapi.
You are right. "\source\Property Editors" used too. But this is does not matter. Seems that license allows to use any sources.
Packages not used at all.

No it doesn't. The whole point in the changes in D6 to not ship all that code
was that none of that code is considered redistributables and people were
accidentally linking it into the executables. The changes in D6 were made
intentionally to stop people from accidentally violating the license agreement.

The design time code, in any form, is not a redistributable item. There was a
company called the Dream Company that had a component set that allowed you to
turn your app into a design time mode at run time. They used the files from the
toolsapi folder to accomplish this. This was deemed to violate the license and
also one of hte reasons for the changes made in D6 so neither accidental nor
intentional use of that code could go into an EXE. They (the Dream Company)
ended up rewriting their own code to replace the code they were not supposed to
be distributing.

The redistributables are the packages in the redist directory and the dcu's in
the lib directories. The toolsapi stiff fall in neither of those. The toolsapi
is there for learning purposes which is why they ship a subset of the files the
same goes for the property editors, some are shipped, not all for learning
purposes only. Otherwise these would be put into the lib directory for our
general use.

About not competition... ok, XE10 can't be used.
Actually that has been in hte license since D1.
Don't see it in XE2, so It seems suitable to me.

Yes looks like the language is gone for a while in some of the licenses. In the
D1-D4 ones it explicitly forbade another IDE. D6 forbids BDE or pdox clones,
but does not mention IDE's anymore. People have complained about this for as
long as I can remember though that you can't do competing products to theirs due
to the license.

--
Jeff Overcash (TeamB)
(Please do not email me directly unless asked. Thank You)
Learning is finding out what you already know. Doing is demonstrating that you
know it. Teaching is reminding others that they know it as well as you. We are
all leaners, doers, teachers. (R Bach)

Nick Dee

Posts: 11
Registered: 8/1/05
Re: Licensing question: Сan I use Delphi for building Delphi-like IDE?  
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  Posted: Nov 20, 2015 10:43 AM   in response to: Jeff Overcash (... in response to: Jeff Overcash (...
Jeff Overcash (TeamB) wrote:
Nick Dee wrote:
Jeff Overcash (TeamB) wrote:
Nick Dee wrote:
Thanks.

There is no packages at all, so section 2.2.6.1 does not applied here.
You'd have too, all the source needed is not htere in toolsapi.
You are right. "\source\Property Editors" used too. But this is does not matter. Seems that license allows to use any sources.
Packages not used at all.

No it doesn't. The whole point in the changes in D6 to not ship all that code
was that none of that code is considered redistributables and people were
accidentally linking it into the executables. The changes in D6 were made
intentionally to stop people from accidentally violating the license agreement.

The design time code, in any form, is not a redistributable item. There was a
company called the Dream Company that had a component set that allowed you to
turn your app into a design time mode at run time. They used the files from the
toolsapi folder to accomplish this. This was deemed to violate the license and
also one of hte reasons for the changes made in D6 so neither accidental nor
intentional use of that code could go into an EXE. They (the Dream Company)
ended up rewriting their own code to replace the code they were not supposed to
be distributing.

The redistributables are the packages in the redist directory and the dcu's in
the lib directories. The toolsapi stiff fall in neither of those. The toolsapi
is there for learning purposes which is why they ship a subset of the files the
same goes for the property editors, some are shipped, not all for learning
purposes only. Otherwise these would be put into the lib directory for our
general use.
Please, write concrete text from license about this. I can't find it.
I can't use any files from "source" folder for compiling? Or you say just about "ToolsApi" and "Property Editors" subfolders of "source"?

About not competition... ok, XE10 can't be used.
Actually that has been in hte license since D1.
Don't see it in XE2, so It seems suitable to me.

Yes looks like the language is gone for a while in some of the licenses. In the
D1-D4 ones it explicitly forbade another IDE. D6 forbids BDE or pdox clones,
but does not mention IDE's anymore. People have complained about this for as
long as I can remember though that you can't do competing products to theirs due
to the license.
Only license text has legal consequences, I think. And U.S. Patents (some of them placed in about box).



--
Jeff Overcash (TeamB)
(Please do not email me directly unless asked. Thank You)
Learning is finding out what you already know. Doing is demonstrating that you
know it. Teaching is reminding others that they know it as well as you. We are
all leaners, doers, teachers. (R Bach)
Jeff Overcash (...

Posts: 1,529
Registered: 9/23/99
Re: Licensing question: Сan I use Delphi for building Delphi-like IDE?  
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  Posted: Nov 20, 2015 1:01 PM   in response to: Nick Dee in response to: Nick Dee
Nick Dee wrote:
Jeff Overcash (TeamB) wrote:
Nick Dee wrote:
Jeff Overcash (TeamB) wrote:
Nick Dee wrote:
Thanks.

There is no packages at all, so section 2.2.6.1 does not applied here.
You'd have too, all the source needed is not htere in toolsapi.
You are right. "\source\Property Editors" used too. But this is does not matter. Seems that license allows to use any sources.
Packages not used at all.
No it doesn't. The whole point in the changes in D6 to not ship all that code
was that none of that code is considered redistributables and people were
accidentally linking it into the executables. The changes in D6 were made
intentionally to stop people from accidentally violating the license agreement.

The design time code, in any form, is not a redistributable item. There was a
company called the Dream Company that had a component set that allowed you to
turn your app into a design time mode at run time. They used the files from the
toolsapi folder to accomplish this. This was deemed to violate the license and
also one of hte reasons for the changes made in D6 so neither accidental nor
intentional use of that code could go into an EXE. They (the Dream Company)
ended up rewriting their own code to replace the code they were not supposed to
be distributing.

The redistributables are the packages in the redist directory and the dcu's in
the lib directories. The toolsapi stiff fall in neither of those. The toolsapi
is there for learning purposes which is why they ship a subset of the files the
same goes for the property editors, some are shipped, not all for learning
purposes only. Otherwise these would be put into the lib directory for our
general use.
Please, write concrete text from license about this. I can't find it.
I can't use any files from "source" folder for compiling? Or you say just about "ToolsApi" and "Property Editors" subfolders of "source"?

The license is very specific, only the code mentioned in the deploy.txt is
deployable with your app in any form. Since Delphi does not have a static lib
concept, just dcu's, they are not individually listed, but the packages that
make up the redistributable code is. Nowhere do you see that you have the full
redistributable rights to the copyrighted code supplied. It clearly states this
is restricted to a subset of the deliver3ed files with RAD Studio.

The open tools code and the property editors code is not included anywhere in
the deploy.txt in any form. A blanket "you can use any of the source" is also
not included. Unless you are given explicit rights to reuse their copyrighted
code you do not have it. They have clearly restricted the copyrighted code you
can deploy with your app in the license and in the referenced deploy.txt/rtf.

Because it is copyrighted code, you do not have the rights to it unless they
give you rights to it. In the case of the open tools and property editors they
do not grant you those rights anywhere.

--
Jeff Overcash (TeamB)
(Please do not email me directly unless asked. Thank You)
Learning is finding out what you already know. Doing is demonstrating that you
know it. Teaching is reminding others that they know it as well as you. We are
all leaners, doers, teachers. (R Bach)
Nick Dee

Posts: 11
Registered: 8/1/05
Re: Licensing question: Сan I use Delphi for building Delphi-like IDE?  
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  Posted: Nov 20, 2015 11:49 PM   in response to: Jeff Overcash (... in response to: Jeff Overcash (...
Jeff Overcash (TeamB) wrote:
Nick Dee wrote:
Jeff Overcash (TeamB) wrote:
Nick Dee wrote:
Jeff Overcash (TeamB) wrote:
Nick Dee wrote:
Thanks.

There is no packages at all, so section 2.2.6.1 does not applied here.
You'd have too, all the source needed is not htere in toolsapi.
You are right. "\source\Property Editors" used too. But this is does not matter. Seems that license allows to use any sources.
Packages not used at all.
No it doesn't. The whole point in the changes in D6 to not ship all that code
was that none of that code is considered redistributables and people were
accidentally linking it into the executables. The changes in D6 were made
intentionally to stop people from accidentally violating the license agreement.

The design time code, in any form, is not a redistributable item. There was a
company called the Dream Company that had a component set that allowed you to
turn your app into a design time mode at run time. They used the files from the
toolsapi folder to accomplish this. This was deemed to violate the license and
also one of hte reasons for the changes made in D6 so neither accidental nor
intentional use of that code could go into an EXE. They (the Dream Company)
ended up rewriting their own code to replace the code they were not supposed to
be distributing.

The redistributables are the packages in the redist directory and the dcu's in
the lib directories. The toolsapi stiff fall in neither of those. The toolsapi
is there for learning purposes which is why they ship a subset of the files the
same goes for the property editors, some are shipped, not all for learning
purposes only. Otherwise these would be put into the lib directory for our
general use.
Please, write concrete text from license about this. I can't find it.
I can't use any files from "source" folder for compiling? Or you say just about "ToolsApi" and "Property Editors" subfolders of "source"?

The license is very specific, only the code mentioned in the deploy.txt is
deployable with your app in any form. Since Delphi does not have a static lib
concept, just dcu's, they are not individually listed, but the packages that
make up the redistributable code is. Nowhere do you see that you have the full
redistributable rights to the copyrighted code supplied. It clearly states this
is restricted to a subset of the deliver3ed files with RAD Studio.

The open tools code and the property editors code is not included anywhere in
the deploy.txt in any form. A blanket "you can use any of the source" is also
not included. Unless you are given explicit rights to reuse their copyrighted
code you do not have it. They have clearly restricted the copyrighted code you
can deploy with your app in the license and in the referenced deploy.txt/rtf.
Ok. I found a bug in Vcl.Forms.pas, patched it, and rebuilds app with it. It is legal?
Or I extent some functionality in Vcl.Forms.pas, and rebuilds app with it.
It is legal to rebuild RTL, using sources?
I always suppose that I can legally do this things. And I suppose if I can't then it will be clearly stated anywhere.


Because it is copyrighted code, you do not have the rights to it unless they
give you rights to it. In the case of the open tools and property editors they
do not grant you those rights anywhere.

--
Jeff Overcash (TeamB)
(Please do not email me directly unless asked. Thank You)
Learning is finding out what you already know. Doing is demonstrating that you
know it. Teaching is reminding others that they know it as well as you. We are
all leaners, doers, teachers. (R Bach)
Nick Hodges

Posts: 2,414
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: Licensing question: Сan I use Delphi for building Delphi-like IDE?  
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  Posted: Nov 21, 2015 9:57 AM   in response to: Nick Dee in response to: Nick Dee
Nick Dee wrote:

Ok. I found a bug in Vcl.Forms.pas, patched it, and rebuilds app with
it. It is legal?

For your own use, yes.

It is legal to rebuild RTL, using sources?

Well, you can't quite rebuild RTL.DPK I don't think, but for your own
use, you can do anything.

What you can't do is distribute code that isn't explicitly allowed to
be distributed.

--
Nick
Delphi Programming is Fun
Jeff Overcash (...

Posts: 1,529
Registered: 9/23/99
Re: Licensing question: Сan I use Delphi for building Delphi-like IDE?  
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  Posted: Nov 22, 2015 12:25 AM   in response to: Nick Dee in response to: Nick Dee
Nick Dee wrote:
Ok. I found a bug in Vcl.Forms.pas, patched it, and rebuilds app with it. It is legal?

Yes, that is a redistributable file according to deploy.txt and the patching
process is covered under the license agreement. You many not distribute the dcu
only form nor the .pas file of your changes. You can compile your changes into
your app, you can supply others with how to change their source.

Or I extent some functionality in Vcl.Forms.pas, and rebuilds app with it.
It is legal to rebuild RTL, using sources?

Yes, once again these are redistributable files so you are allowed to deploy
them as part of your app.

I always suppose that I can legally do this things. And I suppose if I can't then it will be clearly stated anywhere.

You can and it is covered in the license. You have been talking talking about
distributing files that are not in the deploy.txt file and which you do not have
a legal right to use in your apps. These are different topics - patching the
files you are allowed to distribute and using files you are not allowed to
distribute.

--
Jeff Overcash (TeamB)
(Please do not email me directly unless asked. Thank You)
Learning is finding out what you already know. Doing is demonstrating that you
know it. Teaching is reminding others that they know it as well as you. We are
all leaners, doers, teachers. (R Bach)
Nick Dee

Posts: 11
Registered: 8/1/05
Re: Licensing question: Сan I use Delphi for building Delphi-like IDE?  
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  Posted: Nov 22, 2015 2:11 AM   in response to: Jeff Overcash (... in response to: Jeff Overcash (...
Jeff Overcash (TeamB) wrote:
Nick Dee wrote:
Ok. I found a bug in Vcl.Forms.pas, patched it, and rebuilds app with it. It is legal?

Yes, that is a redistributable file according to deploy.txt and the patching
process is covered under the license agreement. You many not distribute the dcu
only form nor the .pas file of your changes. You can compile your changes into
your app, you can supply others with how to change their source.

Or I extent some functionality in Vcl.Forms.pas, and rebuilds app with it.
It is legal to rebuild RTL, using sources?

Yes, once again these are redistributable files so you are allowed to deploy
them as part of your app.

I always suppose that I can legally do this things. And I suppose if I can't then it will be clearly stated anywhere.

You can and it is covered in the license. You have been talking talking about
distributing files that are not in the deploy.txt file and which you do not have
a legal right to use in your apps. These are different topics - patching the
files you are allowed to distribute and using files you are not allowed to
distribute.
Ok. Let's trying from this point of view.
You say that I can use and patch Vcl.Forms.pas and it is clear to you that it is covered in license (but I don't have this clearity).
Can I use and patch ToolsAPI.pas too? If no, then how I can understand it from license.txt and deploy.txt?


--
Jeff Overcash (TeamB)
(Please do not email me directly unless asked. Thank You)
Learning is finding out what you already know. Doing is demonstrating that you
know it. Teaching is reminding others that they know it as well as you. We are
all leaners, doers, teachers. (R Bach)
Jeff Overcash (...

Posts: 1,529
Registered: 9/23/99
Re: Licensing question: Сan I use Delphi for building Delphi-like IDE?  
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  Posted: Nov 22, 2015 12:33 PM   in response to: Nick Dee in response to: Nick Dee
Nick Dee wrote:
Jeff Overcash (TeamB) wrote:
Nick Dee wrote:
Ok. I found a bug in Vcl.Forms.pas, patched it, and rebuilds app with it. It is legal?
Yes, that is a redistributable file according to deploy.txt and the patching
process is covered under the license agreement. You many not distribute the dcu
only form nor the .pas file of your changes. You can compile your changes into
your app, you can supply others with how to change their source.

Or I extent some functionality in Vcl.Forms.pas, and rebuilds app with it.
It is legal to rebuild RTL, using sources?
Yes, once again these are redistributable files so you are allowed to deploy
them as part of your app.

I always suppose that I can legally do this things. And I suppose if I can't then it will be clearly stated anywhere.
You can and it is covered in the license. You have been talking talking about
distributing files that are not in the deploy.txt file and which you do not have
a legal right to use in your apps. These are different topics - patching the
files you are allowed to distribute and using files you are not allowed to
distribute.
Ok. Let's trying from this point of view.
You say that I can use and patch Vcl.Forms.pas and it is clear to you that it is covered in license (but I don't have this clearity).

This is covered in section 2.2.2 of the license agreement. In particular this

"Licensee may modify Redistributables that are provided to Licensee in source
form, subject to all the terms of this Section 2.2 and provided that the
modified Redistributables are distributed (i) only as part of Licensee’s larger
Work (ii) the Redistributable file is renamed and (iii) only executable, non
source Redistributables may be distributed."

Note that first an foremost it has to be part of the redistributables. IOW a
file that is covered in deploy.txt, which the open tools api is not part of.

Secondly it restricts it to just your work, not redistributed in binary form
(the dcu only) or source form.

Can I use and patch ToolsAPI.pas too? If no, then how I can understand it from license.txt and deploy.txt?

It is not a deployable file in any shape or form, patched or otherwise. It is
their copyrighted code and they have not given you the right to deploy it.
Period. If it is not in the packages listed in deploy.txt, you do not have the
right to deploy the code.

--
Jeff Overcash (TeamB)
(Please do not email me directly unless asked. Thank You)
Learning is finding out what you already know. Doing is demonstrating that you
know it. Teaching is reminding others that they know it as well as you. We are
all leaners, doers, teachers. (R Bach)
Nick Dee

Posts: 11
Registered: 8/1/05
Re: Licensing question: Сan I use Delphi for building Delphi-like IDE?  
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  Posted: Nov 23, 2015 6:36 AM   in response to: Jeff Overcash (... in response to: Jeff Overcash (...
Jeff Overcash (TeamB) wrote:
Nick Dee wrote:
Jeff Overcash (TeamB) wrote:
Nick Dee wrote:
Ok. I found a bug in Vcl.Forms.pas, patched it, and rebuilds app with it. It is legal?
Yes, that is a redistributable file according to deploy.txt and the patching
process is covered under the license agreement. You many not distribute the dcu
only form nor the .pas file of your changes. You can compile your changes into
your app, you can supply others with how to change their source.

Or I extent some functionality in Vcl.Forms.pas, and rebuilds app with it.
It is legal to rebuild RTL, using sources?
Yes, once again these are redistributable files so you are allowed to deploy
them as part of your app.

I always suppose that I can legally do this things. And I suppose if I can't then it will be clearly stated anywhere.
You can and it is covered in the license. You have been talking talking about
distributing files that are not in the deploy.txt file and which you do not have
a legal right to use in your apps. These are different topics - patching the
files you are allowed to distribute and using files you are not allowed to
distribute.
Ok. Let's trying from this point of view.
You say that I can use and patch Vcl.Forms.pas and it is clear to you that it is covered in license (but I don't have this clearity).

This is covered in section 2.2.2 of the license agreement. In particular this

"Licensee may modify Redistributables that are provided to Licensee in source
form, subject to all the terms of this Section 2.2 and provided that the
modified Redistributables are distributed (i) only as part of Licensee’s larger
Work (ii) the Redistributable file is renamed and (iii) only executable, non
source Redistributables may be distributed."
I will distribute only one exe (say MyIDE.exe). No pas-files, no packages (bpl or dpk), no dcu-s, no dfm-s. Just single compiled exe:
program MyIDE;
 
uses
  System.SysUtils,
  ToolsAPI in 'D:\Develop\DelphiXE2\source\ToolsAPI\ToolsAPI.pas',
  DesignEditors in 'D:\Develop\DelphiXE2\source\ToolsAPI\DesignEditors.pas',
  DesignIntf in 'D:\Develop\DelphiXE2\source\ToolsAPI\DesignIntf.pas',
  ........
begin
  ...........
end.


It is allowed?

Note that first an foremost it has to be part of the redistributables. IOW a
file that is covered in deploy.txt, which the open tools api is not part of.

Secondly it restricts it to just your work, not redistributed in binary form
(the dcu only) or source form.

Can I use and patch ToolsAPI.pas too? If no, then how I can understand it from license.txt and deploy.txt?

It is not a deployable file in any shape or form, patched or otherwise. It is
their copyrighted code and they have not given you the right to deploy it.
Period. If it is not in the packages listed in deploy.txt, you do not have the
right to deploy the code.

--
Jeff Overcash (TeamB)
(Please do not email me directly unless asked. Thank You)
Learning is finding out what you already know. Doing is demonstrating that you
know it. Teaching is reminding others that they know it as well as you. We are
all leaners, doers, teachers. (R Bach)

Edited by: Nick Dee on Nov 23, 2015 6:42 AM

Edited by: Nick Dee on Nov 23, 2015 6:43 AM
Jeff Overcash (...

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Re: Licensing question: Сan I use Delphi for building Delphi-like IDE? [Edit]  
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  Posted: Nov 23, 2015 10:16 AM   in response to: Nick Dee in response to: Nick Dee
Nick Dee wrote:
Jeff Overcash (TeamB) wrote:
Nick Dee wrote:
Jeff Overcash (TeamB) wrote:
Nick Dee wrote:
Ok. I found a bug in Vcl.Forms.pas, patched it, and rebuilds app with it. It is legal?
Yes, that is a redistributable file according to deploy.txt and the patching
process is covered under the license agreement. You many not distribute the dcu
only form nor the .pas file of your changes. You can compile your changes into
your app, you can supply others with how to change their source.

Or I extent some functionality in Vcl.Forms.pas, and rebuilds app with it.
It is legal to rebuild RTL, using sources?
Yes, once again these are redistributable files so you are allowed to deploy
them as part of your app.

I always suppose that I can legally do this things. And I suppose if I can't then it will be clearly stated anywhere.
You can and it is covered in the license. You have been talking talking about
distributing files that are not in the deploy.txt file and which you do not have
a legal right to use in your apps. These are different topics - patching the
files you are allowed to distribute and using files you are not allowed to
distribute.
Ok. Let's trying from this point of view.
You say that I can use and patch Vcl.Forms.pas and it is clear to you that it is covered in license (but I don't have this clearity).
This is covered in section 2.2.2 of the license agreement. In particular this

"Licensee may modify Redistributables that are provided to Licensee in source
form, subject to all the terms of this Section 2.2 and provided that the
modified Redistributables are distributed (i) only as part of Licensee’s larger
Work (ii) the Redistributable file is renamed and (iii) only executable, non
source Redistributables may be distributed."
I will distribute only one exe (say MyIDE.exe). No pas-files, no packages (bpl or dpk), no dcu-s, no dfm-s. Just single compiled exe:
program MyIDE;
 
uses
  System.SysUtils,
  ToolsAPI in 'D:\Develop\DelphiXE2\source\ToolsAPI\ToolsAPI.pas',
  DesignEditors in 'D:\Develop\DelphiXE2\source\ToolsAPI\DesignEditors.pas',
  DesignIntf in 'D:\Develop\DelphiXE2\source\ToolsAPI\DesignIntf.pas',</div>
 
This violate the license agreement.  Those three files are not contained in the 
list deploy.txt bpls.  That list of bpls, and their corresponding dcu's for 
static linking are the only things you can link into your exe.  You are not 
giving rights to reuse the copyrighted code in your own exe's unless they are in 
that directory.
 
<div class="jive-quote">  ........
begin
  ...........
end.


It is allowed?

No it is not. Only that code contained in the bpl's listed in deploy.txt, which
non of those units are, is allowed to be statically linked into your app. Those
are not redistributable units under the license agreement.

Only those units that make up the deployable bpl's are allowed to be used. This
is why I said only those dcu's in the lib directories are usable as those are
the units that make up the deployable bpls. The non deployable bpl's only have
their dcp (import library basically) for linking your design time packages to
the design time code in the lib directories and not their static linking counter
part dcu.

The lib directory basically contains

.dcp - from the deploy.txt packages for dynamically linking to your app
.lib/.a/.o - for static library linkage in c++ apps from the deploy.txt
.dcu - for statically linking the units that are in the deploy.txt packages
to your app.
.dfm/.res - the resources from the deploy.txt needed in statically linking to
your app

finally the non deployable code is there
.dcp - the design time import libraries for dynamically linking your design
time code to be installed into the ide (non deployable) No corresponding dcu as
it is not needed for design time work.

What is deployable is only what is in the redist (deploy.txt) directory or their
static counterparts in the lib directory. Those are the only units that
Embarcadero has granted you distribution rights on their copyrighted code.

No where in the license agreement nor the deploy.txt are you given rights to all
the code in the source directories. If you see such a clause please post it
here. If such a clause does not exist you are not given the rights just because
they included the copyrighted code with the distribution for the purpose mainly
of learning from it.

The OTA has always been poorly documented, the best documentation is the code
itself which is why it has always been shipped. But it is shipped as
copyrighted code which means you can not use it without permission of the
copyright owner. The license agreement no where give you that permission.

You can not get around this, unless you can post the clause in the license
agreement or in deploy.txt that indicates all the source is usable in your app,
you do not have rights to it unless explicitly given to you.

All this code is copyrighted. You keep asking the wrong question. It is not
"where has it been restricted" because by the fact it is copyrighted it is ALL
restricted from your use. The question is "what have I been given permission to
use". That list is deploy.txt which is a subset of the copyrighted code in the
sources directory.

--
Jeff Overcash (TeamB)
(Please do not email me directly unless asked. Thank You)
Learning is finding out what you already know. Doing is demonstrating that you
know it. Teaching is reminding others that they know it as well as you. We are
all leaners, doers, teachers. (R Bach)
John Kaster


Posts: 913
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Re: Licensing question: Сan I use Delphi for building Delphi-like IDE? [Edit]  
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  Posted: Nov 23, 2015 5:28 PM   in response to: Nick Dee in response to: Nick Dee
Nick Dee wrote:

It is allowed?

Apologies to Jeff if he's already referenced this in another post and I
missed it, but:

What ever happened to Proxies.pas?
http://edn.embarcadero.com/article/27717

--
John Kaster http://johnkaster.wordpress.com
Software solutions

Nick Dee

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Registered: 8/1/05
Re: Licensing question: Сan I use Delphi for building Delphi-like IDE?  
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  Posted: Nov 23, 2015 7:00 AM   in response to: Jeff Overcash (... in response to: Jeff Overcash (...
Jeff Overcash (TeamB) wrote:
Nick Dee wrote:
Thanks.

There is no packages at all, so section 2.2.6.1 does not applied here.

You'd have too, all the source needed is not htere in toolsapi.
I did not notice this sentence.
EControl contains all needed sources. So bpl-s not needed at all.


About not competition... ok, XE10 can't be used.

Actually that has been in hte license since D1.

--
Jeff Overcash (TeamB)
(Please do not email me directly unless asked. Thank You)
Learning is finding out what you already know. Doing is demonstrating that you
know it. Teaching is reminding others that they know it as well as you. We are
all leaners, doers, teachers. (R Bach)
Jeff Overcash (...

Posts: 1,529
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Re: Licensing question: Сan I use Delphi for building Delphi-like IDE?  
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  Posted: Nov 23, 2015 9:55 AM   in response to: Nick Dee in response to: Nick Dee
Nick Dee wrote:
Jeff Overcash (TeamB) wrote:
Nick Dee wrote:
Thanks.

There is no packages at all, so section 2.2.6.1 does not applied here.
You'd have too, all the source needed is not htere in toolsapi.
I did not notice this sentence.
EControl contains all needed sources. So bpl-s not needed at all.

You DO NOT HAVE DISTRIBUTION RIGHTS TO THAT CODE. Period. Proxies.pas for one
is missing to stop recompiling it.

--
Jeff Overcash (TeamB)
(Please do not email me directly unless asked. Thank You)
Learning is finding out what you already know. Doing is demonstrating that you
know it. Teaching is reminding others that they know it as well as you. We are
all leaners, doers, teachers. (R Bach)
Christopher Burke

Posts: 580
Registered: 9/25/99
Re: Licensing question: Сan I use Delphi for building Delphi-like IDE? [Edit]  
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  Posted: Nov 19, 2015 12:00 PM   in response to: Robert Love in response to: Robert Love
Robert Love wrote:

5.2 RESTRICTIONS.
Licensee agrees not to use the Product to develop an application that
is directly competitive to the Product or to any other Embarcadero
products

Since Embarcadero has aquired Raize (Konopka) components - does this
now mean that TMS can no longer use Delphi to develop component sets?

I mean - we are using TMS as a replacement for Raize, that clearly
makes it a competitor to Konopka.
Robert Love

Posts: 155
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Re: Licensing question: Сan I use Delphi for building Delphi-like IDE? [Edit]  
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  Posted: Nov 19, 2015 12:47 PM   in response to: Christopher Burke in response to: Christopher Burke
Christopher Burke wrote:
Since Embarcadero has aquired Raize (Konopka) components - does this
now mean that TMS can no longer use Delphi to develop component sets?

I mean - we are using TMS as a replacement for Raize, that clearly
makes it a competitor to Konopka.

Interesting thought. My employer currently uses SmartInspect instead of CodeSite and it's developed in Delphi.

Several years ago I put in a request to have CodeSite implement security features that my employer needed. None of those
occurred so we switch to SmartInspect. SmartInspect has not had a major update in years and is showing it's age.

So recently we debated creating a new product that is open source that meets our needs to replace both. Initially I doubt it
would be better than either but I don't think it would take long for it to catch up and maybe pass them.

Do we need to move away from Delphi to produce this tool? If we have to use a different tool will this start
a virus like movement for my employer applications and have them slowly move to a new tool.
Never even realized this line might impact my employer who does not even sell software.
Nick Hodges

Posts: 2,414
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Re: Licensing question: Сan I use Delphi for building Delphi-like IDE? [Edit]  
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  Posted: Nov 19, 2015 1:30 PM   in response to: Robert Love in response to: Robert Love
Robert Love wrote:

Interesting thought.

This was discussed that the time of the acquisition, and while Marco
chimed in that there isn't a problem, the legal documents have not
caught up with this.

--
Nick
Delphi Programming is Fun
Robert Love

Posts: 155
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Re: Licensing question: Сan I use Delphi for building Delphi-like IDE? [Edit]  
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  Posted: Nov 19, 2015 3:32 PM   in response to: Nick Hodges in response to: Nick Hodges
Nick Hodges wrote:
Robert Love wrote:

Interesting thought.

This was discussed that the time of the acquisition, and while Marco
chimed in that there isn't a problem, the legal documents have not
caught up with this.

Considering the new manager Atanas Popov over development tools and our history with one of his previous companies he manged we will need it in writing.
Nick Hodges

Posts: 2,414
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Re: Licensing question: Сan I use Delphi for building Delphi-like IDE? [Edit]  
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  Posted: Nov 20, 2015 5:11 AM   in response to: Robert Love in response to: Robert Love
Robert Love wrote:


Considering the new manager Atanas Popov over development tools and
our history with one of his previous companies he manged we will need
it in writing.

Agreed.

--
Nick
Delphi Programming is Fun
Joseph Mitzen

Posts: 392
Registered: 6/9/02
Re: Licensing question: Сan I use Delphi for building Delphi-like IDE? [Edit]  
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  Posted: Nov 19, 2015 2:08 PM   in response to: Robert Love in response to: Robert Love
Robert Love wrote:
Do we need to move away from Delphi to produce this tool? If we have to use a different tool will this start
a virus like movement for my employer applications and have them slowly move to a new tool.
Never even realized this line might impact my employer who does not even sell software.

I had a conversation with Marco in which he began claiming that if you write Embarcadero they'll give you a legal document promising not to sue you. He was basically arguing that 1) This clause will never be used against anybody, ever, 2) they'll go through the hassle of promising it in writing, but 3) they won't even consider changing it. Marco claimed it was normal boilerplate but when i produced licenses from competitors, including Microsoft, showing it wasn't, Marco declared that he saw no point in continuing this discussion with me. :-(

I've since formed my own independent theory: Embarcadero sells database tools. At least one of their competitors is (or was now?) using Delphi to produce their product. This clause may have been specifically written to screw them over and Marco won't admit it, leading to his confounding position.

That said - there's no way in heck I'd recommend any professional client risk it. As we've seen, Embarcadero changed hands and there's no guarantee a new owner (or yet another one in the future) won't choose to enforce it. This clause is well beyond the norm by covering any product Embarcadero sells. That means that they could buy a new product tomorrow and suddenly you're in violation of the license. They're so intent on screwing their competition they won't restore trust by changing this clause to something more industry-standard.

Keep in mind they excluded Mormot framework from their app store by declaring it a "competitor". We used to have "by the book" licensing; now one has to worry they'll throw the book at you! :-)
Robert Love

Posts: 155
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Re: Licensing question: Сan I use Delphi for building Delphi-like IDE? [Edit]  
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  Posted: Nov 19, 2015 3:27 PM   in response to: Joseph Mitzen in response to: Joseph Mitzen
Joseph Mitzen wrote:
Keep in mind they excluded Mormot framework from their app store by declaring it a "competitor".

This is sad.
Eli M

Posts: 1,346
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Re: Licensing question: Сan I use Delphi for building Delphi-like IDE? [Edit]  
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  Posted: Nov 19, 2015 3:41 PM   in response to: Joseph Mitzen in response to: Joseph Mitzen
Joseph Mitzen wrote:
Keep in mind they excluded Mormot framework from their app store by declaring it a "competitor".

This was the response you received to your GetIt app submission?

GetIt will only ever thrive if it is self serve. On the other hand both Apple and Google restrict competitors from their app stores. For example, if you build an app just like an Apple app they will not accept it.
Markus Humm

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Re: Licensing question: Сan I use Delphi for building Delphi-like IDE? [Edit]  
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  Posted: Nov 20, 2015 8:16 AM   in response to: Eli M in response to: Eli M
Am 20.11.2015 um 00:41 schrieb Eli M:
Joseph Mitzen wrote:
Keep in mind they excluded Mormot framework from their app store by declaring it a "competitor".

This was the response you received to your GetIt app submission?

GetIt will only ever thrive if it is self serve. On the other hand both Apple and Google restrict competitors from their app stores. For example, if you build an app just like an Apple app they will not accept it.

The behaviour of Apple doesn't make anything better. If the other app
does things better than Apple's it deserves to be put into the app
store. If not they may enforce their rule - I've no problem with it
then. But since it's often debatable whether some app is better than the
original or not it would be better to let them in.

They might automatically add a note to the app's description telling the
visitor that an Apple own app exists for that purpose as well.

Greetings

Markus
Vincent Parrett

Posts: 397
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Re: Licensing question: Сan I use Delphi for building Delphi-like IDE? [Edit]  
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  Posted: Nov 21, 2015 5:53 PM   in response to: Eli M in response to: Eli M
On 20/11/2015 10:41 AM, Eli M wrote:
Joseph Mitzen wrote:
Keep in mind they excluded Mormot framework from their app store by declaring it a "competitor".

This was the response you received to your GetIt app submission?

GetIt will only ever thrive if it is self serve. On the other hand both Apple and Google restrict competitors from their app stores. For example, if you build an app just like an Apple app they will not accept it.

GetIt has an identity crisis, is it a store or a package manager? I
think it fails badly at both.

--
Regards

Vincent Parrett

VSoft Technologies Pty Ltd
https://www.finalbuilder.com
Blog: https://www.finalbuilder.com/resources/blogs
Automate your Software builds with FinalBuilder.

Markus Humm

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Re: Licensing question: Сan I use Delphi for building Delphi-like IDE? [Edit]  
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  Posted: Nov 22, 2015 12:39 AM   in response to: Vincent Parrett in response to: Vincent Parrett
Am 22.11.2015 um 02:53 schrieb Vincent Parrett:
On 20/11/2015 10:41 AM, Eli M wrote:
Joseph Mitzen wrote:
Keep in mind they excluded Mormot framework from their app store by declaring it a "competitor".

This was the response you received to your GetIt app submission?

GetIt will only ever thrive if it is self serve. On the other hand both Apple and Google restrict competitors from their app stores. For example, if you build an app just like an Apple app they will not accept it.

GetIt has an identity crisis, is it a store or a package manager? I
think it fails badly at both.


Hello,

while this identity crisis might be there I still think it's better than
not having it. I only hope it will set all search paths properly in the
future so I don't need to figure them out for adding them manuially.

Greetings

Markus
Alexandre Machado

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Re: Licensing question: Сan I use Delphi for building Delphi-like IDE? [Edit]  
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  Posted: Nov 19, 2015 7:37 PM   in response to: Joseph Mitzen in response to: Joseph Mitzen
That means that they could buy a new product tomorrow and suddenly you're in violation of the license.

Of course this is not true, and you could never win such a case in court. This is absurd.

When you created your product (in the past) you were not violating any license. The fact that they bought your competitor doesn't change that in any way. It is just like saying that Firebird guys are now violating Interbase copyrights because they started with an Interbase fork years ago... this is absurd. When Firebird was forked, Interbase was open source, period. If Borland decided to close IB sources again, it's their problem, but they can't do anything about the old open sourced code!
You are just spreading FUD.
Alexandre Palme...

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Re: Licensing question: Сan I use Delphi for building Delphi-like IDE? [Edit]  
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  Posted: Nov 19, 2015 8:19 PM   in response to: Alexandre Machado in response to: Alexandre Machado
If I remember correctly, Codegear "close sourced" TPNGImage and told people that they could no longer distribute the original code, although the original license allowed it.

Alexandre Machado wrote:
That means that they could buy a new product tomorrow and suddenly you're in violation of the license.

Of course this is not true, and you could never win such a case in court. This is absurd.

When you created your product (in the past) you were not violating any license. The fact that they bought your competitor doesn't change that in any way. It is just like saying that Firebird guys are now violating Interbase copyrights because they started with an Interbase fork years ago... this is absurd. When Firebird was forked, Interbase was open source, period. If Borland decided to close IB sources again, it's their problem, but they can't do anything about the old open sourced code!
You are just spreading FUD.
Eivind Bakkestuen


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Re: Licensing question: Сan I use Delphi for building Delphi-like IDE? [Edit]  
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  Posted: Nov 21, 2015 4:10 AM   in response to: Alexandre Machado in response to: Alexandre Machado
When you created your product (in the past) you were not violating
any license. The fact that they bought your competitor doesn't change
that in any way. It is just like saying that Firebird guys are now

I doubt that it would matter if your product was created before or
after the competitor was bought. It's a bit like having the speed limit
in your residential area lowered, and then you keep driving at the old
higher speed because that was the limit when you first settled there.

Unless the license agreement would explicitly make an exception for
pre-existing tools, you'd be in violation after the competitor was
bought.

--
Eivind Bakkestuen [NDD]

P Tytgat

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Re: Licensing question: Сan I use Delphi for building Delphi-like IDE? [Edit]  
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  Posted: Nov 23, 2015 4:22 PM   in response to: Eivind Bakkestuen in response to: Eivind Bakkestuen
Eivind Bakkestuen wrote:
When you created your product (in the past) you were not violating
any license. The fact that they bought your competitor doesn't change
that in any way. It is just like saying that Firebird guys are now

I doubt that it would matter if your product was created before or
after the competitor was bought.

Embarcadero and its successor in rights have the freedom to
(i) use vision and imagination and develop and market any software product, by themselves, as "Embarcadero product"
(ii) through acquisition of the assets /of the shares of a company obtain all necessary intellectual property and trade secrets to label an acquired product "Embarcadero product"

This is what Nick calls "companies are there to make $$$".

If your interpretation of the contractual clause is correct, it means that the licensor, at any point in time, can convert the agreement into an empty box, at its sole discretion, without court intervention and without payment of any damages to licensee.

it goes without saying that there is more than one forum in the world which will hold such interpretation contrary to the intention of parties when entering into the agreement…even under the applicable law when combined with the overriding mandatory provisions of that forum.
Nick Dee

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Re: Licensing question: Сan I use Delphi for building Delphi-like IDE?  
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  Posted: Nov 23, 2015 1:44 PM   in response to: Nick Dee in response to: Nick Dee
Thanks to all for conversation.
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