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Thread: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition



Permlink Replies: 175 - Last Post: Oct 30, 2015 6:31 AM Last Post By: Lajos Juhasz
Jeff Overcash (...

Posts: 1,529
Registered: 9/23/99
Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 22, 2015 10:36 AM
Just got an email from them (I'm most of us are getting it) but thought I'd post
the part pertinent to Delphi

"For Embarcadero’s development tools, we acknowledge this is a new opportunity
for IDERA. I have seen some chatter on our community forums and received direct
questions from customers on IDERA’s intentions for the product line. I wish to
emphasize the tremendous value we perceive in development tools. As applications
proliferate across multiple channels and platforms, the need for tools to build
the next generation of applications will soar. Concepts such as the Internet of
Things or proximity awareness in applications did not exist several years ago.
Today, everybody recognizes the opportunity in building applications for
equipment that simplifies and advances society. We believe the winners in the
application development market will focus on the developer and differentiate
with speed to market, ease of use, and pace of change. All of these things
perfectly align with IDERA’s view of product and customer success.

To that end, we formed a new leadership team that will focus exclusively on
Embarcadero’s development tools and growing the business via innovations and
opportunistic M&A. Atanas Popov, a longtime colleague of mine, has joined
Embarcadero to lead the team. Atanas will focus his attention on growing the
business and investing to attract more customers to our solutions. We believe
there is significant opportunity in Embarcadero’s development tools and we look
forward to working with you to prioritize our investments."

--
Jeff Overcash (TeamB)
(Please do not email me directly unless asked. Thank You)
Learning is finding out what you already know. Doing is demonstrating that you
know it. Teaching is reminding others that they know it as well as you. We are
all leaners, doers, teachers. (R Bach)
Asbjørn Heid

Posts: 267
Registered: 11/12/12
Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 22, 2015 12:46 PM   in response to: Jeff Overcash (... in response to: Jeff Overcash (...
Jeff Overcash (TeamB) wrote:
Just got an email from them (I'm most of us are getting it) but thought I'd post
the part pertinent to Delphi

Thanks for sharing Jeff!

- Asbjørn
Uffe Kousgaard

Posts: 218
Registered: 2/7/00
Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 22, 2015 2:54 PM   in response to: Jeff Overcash (... in response to: Jeff Overcash (...
Jeff Overcash (TeamB) wrote:

Just got an email from them (I'm most of us are getting it) but
thought I'd post the part pertinent to Delphi

All marketing mumble-jumble.
Lets wait and see what they actually do.
Jason Sweby

Posts: 46
Registered: 5/20/00
Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 23, 2015 12:36 AM   in response to: Uffe Kousgaard in response to: Uffe Kousgaard
Uffe Kousgaard wrote:
All marketing mumble-jumble.
Lets wait and see what they actually do.

Completely agree, just a load of press-release jargon, not actually said by anybody, but sounded good by a marketing department.
Gilbert Padilla

Posts: 315
Registered: 3/8/04
Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 23, 2015 7:06 AM   in response to: Jason Sweby in response to: Jason Sweby
Completely agree, just a load of press-release jargon, not actually said
by anybody, but sounded good by a marketing department.

Well it says that they will publish and keep up today the roadmap and do
things to attract more customers, that means that things must have to change
since they were not working as expected.
Dalija Prasnikar

Posts: 2,325
Registered: 11/9/99
Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 23, 2015 5:36 AM   in response to: Uffe Kousgaard in response to: Uffe Kousgaard
Uffe Kousgaard wrote:
Jeff Overcash (TeamB) wrote:

Just got an email from them (I'm most of us are getting it) but
thought I'd post the part pertinent to Delphi

All marketing mumble-jumble.
Lets wait and see what they actually do.

It is far better marketing mumble-jumble than we are used to get.

Actually, I find it quite refreshing. We'll see what will eventually happen,
but I like new winds, for now...

--
Dalija Prasnikar
Markus Humm

Posts: 5,113
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Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 24, 2015 12:49 AM   in response to: Dalija Prasnikar in response to: Dalija Prasnikar
Am 23.10.2015 um 14:36 schrieb Dalija Prasnikar:
Uffe Kousgaard wrote:
Jeff Overcash (TeamB) wrote:

Just got an email from them (I'm most of us are getting it) but
thought I'd post the part pertinent to Delphi

All marketing mumble-jumble.
Lets wait and see what they actually do.

It is far better marketing mumble-jumble than we are used to get.

Actually, I find it quite refreshing. We'll see what will eventually happen,
but I like new winds, for now...

+1

I got it as well and it's a good statement of intent for a start at least.
Now they just need to deliver.

Greetings

Markus
Dean Hill

Posts: 16
Registered: 10/5/99
Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 23, 2015 1:50 PM   in response to: Uffe Kousgaard in response to: Uffe Kousgaard
Uffe Kousgaard wrote:
Jeff Overcash (TeamB) wrote:

Just got an email from them (I'm most of us are getting it) but
thought I'd post the part pertinent to Delphi

All marketing mumble-jumble.
Lets wait and see what they actually do.

I thought it was done well. It's not often that the CEO of a large company will give out his email address and invite you to contact him with any questions you might have.
Gilbert Padilla

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Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 22, 2015 9:11 PM   in response to: Jeff Overcash (... in response to: Jeff Overcash (...
Atanas will focus his attention on growing the
business and investing to attract more customers to our solutions.

Seems like things are going to change for the better
Arnaud Bouchez

Posts: 137
Registered: 8/2/15
Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 23, 2015 4:54 AM   in response to: Jeff Overcash (... in response to: Jeff Overcash (...
Jeff Overcash (TeamB) wrote:
Just got an email from them (I'm most of us are getting it) but thought I'd post
the part pertinent to Delphi

The letter states that they have 20,000 customers...

It sounds more realistic than the numbers given for Delphi users.
Even if it for all their tools.
:)

In our forums, we have 1,384 registered users (real humans: we do not accept bots).
It sounds like if Open Source projects are able to gather a lot of users.
And certainly because we maintain support from Delphi 6 up to Seattle (and even Delphi 5 for some part of our libraries)... we may have more users than the current number of registered Delphi users.

In the letter, the community has a special place.
I hope future of Delphi would see Open Source projects as a change, not as competition.
See http://synopse.info/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=17453#p17453
Arnaud Bouchez

Posts: 137
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Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 23, 2015 5:21 AM   in response to: Arnaud Bouchez in response to: Arnaud Bouchez
PingBack from http://blog.synopse.info/post/2015/10/23/Letters-of-Hope

I received this email as a letter of hope!
:)
Dominique Willems

Posts: 591
Registered: 10/26/99
Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 23, 2015 7:33 AM   in response to: Arnaud Bouchez in response to: Arnaud Bouchez
Arnaud Bouchez wrote:
The letter states that they have 20,000 customers...

That's odd. The letter I got states 10,000 customers (explicitly EMBT
customers).
Asbjørn Heid

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Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 23, 2015 8:02 AM   in response to: Dominique Willems in response to: Dominique Willems
Dominique Willems wrote:
Arnaud Bouchez wrote:
The letter states that they have 20,000 customers...

That's odd. The letter I got states 10,000 customers (explicitly EMBT
customers).

The letter states both. It says both Idera and EMB has 10k customers each, which together makes 20k.

Cheers
- Asbjørn
Dominique Willems

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Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 23, 2015 8:18 AM   in response to: Asbjørn Heid in response to: Asbjørn Heid
Asbjørn Heid wrote:
The letter states both. It says both Idera and EMB has 10k customers
each, which together makes 20k.

It does. Never in my wildest dreams had I expected the number to be so
very low. Never in my wildest dreams had I expected a company like
Idera to have the same amount of customers as EMBT.

10,000? Really?
Asbjørn Heid

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Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 23, 2015 8:29 AM   in response to: Dominique Willems in response to: Dominique Willems
Dominique Willems wrote:
It does. Never in my wildest dreams had I expected the number to be so
very low. Never in my wildest dreams had I expected a company like
Idera to have the same amount of customers as EMBT.

10,000? Really?

Well I guess that depends heavily on how they define "customers". Only those who bought a new version over the past year or have an active subscription?

- Asbjørn
Dominique Willems

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Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 23, 2015 8:34 AM   in response to: Asbjørn Heid in response to: Asbjørn Heid
Asbjørn Heid wrote:
Well I guess that depends heavily on how they define "customers".
Only those who bought a new version over the past year or have an
active subscription?

If I would calculate for 10,000 Enterprise subscriptions, would that be
overly optimistic or pessimistic?

In any case, that'd be about 9 million EUR revenue per year.

That's a pretty small company, no?
Asbjørn Heid

Posts: 267
Registered: 11/12/12
Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 23, 2015 9:48 AM   in response to: Dominique Willems in response to: Dominique Willems
Dominique Willems wrote:
Asbjørn Heid wrote:
Well I guess that depends heavily on how they define "customers".
Only those who bought a new version over the past year or have an
active subscription?

If I would calculate for 10,000 Enterprise subscriptions, would that be
overly optimistic or pessimistic?

In any case, that'd be about 9 million EUR revenue per year.

That's a pretty small company, no?

Well again, what is "a customer". My boss buys licenses for our team, 5 programmers in total. Is he "one customer" or are we "five customers"?

- Asbjørn
Dominique Willems

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Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 23, 2015 11:32 AM   in response to: Asbjørn Heid in response to: Asbjørn Heid
Asbjørn Heid wrote:
Well again, what is "a customer". My boss buys licenses for our team,
5 programmers in total. Is he "one customer" or are we "five
customers"?

One, of course. That's why I compensated by giving everyone an
Enterprise license instead of Pros. :)
Raul Sinimae

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Registered: 5/8/08
Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 23, 2015 9:49 AM   in response to: Dominique Willems in response to: Dominique Willems
Dominique Willems wrote:
If I would calculate for 10,000 Enterprise subscriptions, would that be
overly optimistic or pessimistic?
In any case, that'd be about 9 million EUR revenue per year.
That's a pretty small company, no?

Customer is not necessarily the same thing as a license/user - customer usually is the buying entity so while there no doubt are customer with just a single license there no doubt are some with lot more (i know for we are closer to 8 licenses and around 5 of them still with current maintenance and based on some comments on these newsgroups there are customers with 10+ active users/licenses as well).

Raul
Dominique Willems

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Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 23, 2015 11:33 AM   in response to: Raul Sinimae in response to: Raul Sinimae
Raul Sinimae wrote:
Customer is not necessarily the same thing as a license/user -
customer usually is the buying entity so while there no doubt are
customer with just a single license there no doubt are some with lot
more (i know for we are closer to 8 licenses and around 5 of them
still with current maintenance and based on some comments on these
newsgroups there are customers with 10+ active users/licenses as
well).

Absolutely. On the other hand, I calculated for 100% Enterprise
licenses. I'm sure there are quite a few Pro licenses about too. But
it's all ball park stuff, of course.
Robert Love

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Registered: 5/3/07
Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 25, 2015 7:38 PM   in response to: Dominique Willems in response to: Dominique Willems
Dominique Willems wrote:
Raul Sinimae wrote:
Customer is not necessarily the same thing as a license/user -
customer usually is the buying entity so while there no doubt are
customer with just a single license there no doubt are some with lot
more (i know for we are closer to 8 licenses and around 5 of them
still with current maintenance and based on some comments on these
newsgroups there are customers with 10+ active users/licenses as
well).

Absolutely. On the other hand, I calculated for 100% Enterprise
licenses. I'm sure there are quite a few Pro licenses about too. But
it's all ball park stuff, of course.

My employer has 10 enterprise licenses of Delphi, I know that other departments and divisions use the EMBT DB tools. So we represent far more than just pro delphi. Your numbers don't add up, it would never pay for the staffing levels that embt currently has.
Dominique Willems

Posts: 591
Registered: 10/26/99
Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 26, 2015 2:38 AM   in response to: Robert Love in response to: Robert Love
Robert Love wrote:
Your numbers don't add up, it would
never pay for the staffing levels that embt currently has.

Exactly.
david hoke

Posts: 616
Registered: 2/9/07
Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 26, 2015 5:22 AM   in response to: Robert Love in response to: Robert Love
Robert Love wrote:

Dominique Willems wrote:
Raul Sinimae wrote:
Customer is not necessarily the same thing as a license/user -
customer usually is the buying entity so while there no doubt are
customer with just a single license there no doubt are some with
lot more (i know for we are closer to 8 licenses and around 5 of
them still with current maintenance and based on some comments on
these newsgroups there are customers with 10+ active
users/licenses as well).

Absolutely. On the other hand, I calculated for 100% Enterprise
licenses. I'm sure there are quite a few Pro licenses about too. But
it's all ball park stuff, of course.

My employer has 10 enterprise licenses of Delphi, I know that other
departments and divisions use the EMBT DB tools. So we represent
far more than just pro delphi. Your numbers don't add up, it would
never pay for the staffing levels that embt currently has.

just "playing" with some #'s quoted, tossed about recently in
thread(s)...

3000000 users (licenses?) / 10000 customers
= 300 users (licenses?) per customer

1750000 users (licenses?) / 10000 customers
= 175 users (licenses?) per customer

1000000 users (licenses?) / 10000 customers
= 100 users (licenses?) per customer

3000000 users (licenses?) / (global) 2000 customers
= 1500 users (licenses?) per customer

1750000 users (licenses?) / (global) 2000 customers
= 875 users (licenses?) per customer

1000000 users (licenses?) / (global) 2000 customers
= 500 users (licenses?) per customer
Joseph Mitzen

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Registered: 6/9/02
Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 26, 2015 11:16 PM   in response to: david hoke in response to: david hoke
david hoke wrote:

3000000 users (licenses?) / (global) 2000 customers
= 1500 users (licenses?) per customer

And cue someone suggesting there are firms out there that do employ 1500 Delphi developers but they keep it a secret and in lieu of job ads they sent you a notice by owl in 3, 2, 1.... (Ok, David Intersimone does look like a wizard so there might be a wee bit of evidence for this one)
Jeff Overcash (...

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Registered: 9/23/99
Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 23, 2015 10:32 AM   in response to: Dominique Willems in response to: Dominique Willems
Dominique Willems wrote:
Asbjørn Heid wrote:
Well I guess that depends heavily on how they define "customers".
Only those who bought a new version over the past year or have an
active subscription?

If I would calculate for 10,000 Enterprise subscriptions, would that be
overly optimistic or pessimistic?

Pessimistic. A customer would be someone like Bank of America. The number of
licenses BoA has is much greater than 1. They did not say users, they are
talking about corporate customers.

In any case, that'd be about 9 million EUR revenue per year.

That's a pretty small company, no?

--
Jeff Overcash (TeamB)
(Please do not email me directly unless asked. Thank You)
Learning is finding out what you already know. Doing is demonstrating that you
know it. Teaching is reminding others that they know it as well as you. We are
all leaners, doers, teachers. (R Bach)

Dalija Prasnikar

Posts: 2,325
Registered: 11/9/99
Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 23, 2015 11:09 AM   in response to: Jeff Overcash (... in response to: Jeff Overcash (...
Jeff Overcash (TeamB) wrote:
Dominique Willems wrote:
Asbjørn Heid wrote:
Well I guess that depends heavily on how they define "customers".
Only those who bought a new version over the past year or have an
active subscription?

If I would calculate for 10,000 Enterprise subscriptions, would that be
overly optimistic or pessimistic?

Pessimistic. A customer would be someone like Bank of America. The number of
licenses BoA has is much greater than 1. They did not say users, they are
talking about corporate customers.

That is how I read it, too.

--
Dalija Prasnikar
Dominique Willems

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Registered: 10/26/99
Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 23, 2015 11:36 AM   in response to: Dalija Prasnikar in response to: Dalija Prasnikar
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:
Pessimistic. A customer would be someone like Bank of America.
The number of licenses BoA has is much greater than 1. They did
not say users, they are talking about corporate customers.

That is how I read it, too.

You also read 10,000 corporate customers? Amazing.
Dalija Prasnikar

Posts: 2,325
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Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 23, 2015 12:09 PM   in response to: Dominique Willems in response to: Dominique Willems
Dominique Willems wrote:
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:
Pessimistic. A customer would be someone like Bank of America.
The number of licenses BoA has is much greater than 1. They did
not say users, they are talking about corporate customers.

That is how I read it, too.

You also read 10,000 corporate customers? Amazing.

Not just corporate customers.

For some customers one customer would equal one developer/license,
and for others that would be more.

Anyway, we can kiss those millions of Delphi developers goodbye ;-)

--
Dalija Prasnikar
Bruce McGee

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Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 23, 2015 1:38 PM   in response to: Dalija Prasnikar in response to: Dalija Prasnikar
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:

For some customers one customer would equal one developer/license,
and for others that would be more.

Yes.

Anyway, we can kiss those millions of Delphi developers goodbye ;-)

I'm sure someone will use this to put Embarcadero/Idera in a bad light.

--
Regards,
Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
Gilbert Padilla

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Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 23, 2015 5:58 PM   in response to: Bruce McGee in response to: Bruce McGee
I'm sure someone will use this to put Embarcadero/Idera in a bad light.

May be, but some how I feel better knowing the true.
Dominique Willems

Posts: 591
Registered: 10/26/99
Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 23, 2015 2:20 PM   in response to: Dalija Prasnikar in response to: Dalija Prasnikar
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:
Anyway, we can kiss those millions of Delphi developers goodbye ;-)

Don't forget: that 10,000 number encompasses all EMBT customers,
including the database tools ones.
Dominique Willems

Posts: 591
Registered: 10/26/99
Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 23, 2015 11:35 AM   in response to: Jeff Overcash (... in response to: Jeff Overcash (...
Jeff Overcash (TeamB) wrote:
They did not say
users, they are talking about corporate customers.

Oh, okay. I thought they counted smaller customers too. Didn't know
they just counted corporations. 10,000 corporations is surely a whole
damn not.
Bruce McGee

Posts: 1,716
Registered: 9/30/99
Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 23, 2015 1:35 PM   in response to: Dominique Willems in response to: Dominique Willems
Dominique Willems wrote:

Oh, okay. I thought they counted smaller customers too. Didn't know
they just counted corporations.

Most likely referring to both large and small customers.

--
Regards,
Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
Dominique Willems

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Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 23, 2015 2:15 PM   in response to: Bruce McGee in response to: Bruce McGee
Bruce McGee wrote:
Most likely referring to both large and small customers.

I'm sure there's a formula somewhere that would allow us to calculate a
more accurate amount of licenses based on a probable distribution of
customer kind. But it's a very good sign that Randy Jacops has the
honesty to actually mention numbers at all. IIRC this is a first, but I
could be wrong.
Bruce McGee

Posts: 1,716
Registered: 9/30/99
Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 23, 2015 3:53 PM   in response to: Dominique Willems in response to: Dominique Willems
Dominique Willems wrote:

Bruce McGee wrote:
Most likely referring to both large and small customers.

I'm sure there's a formula somewhere that would allow us to calculate
a more accurate amount of licenses based on a probable distribution of
customer kind. But it's a very good sign that Randy Jacops has the
honesty to actually mention numbers at all. IIRC this is a first, but
I could be wrong.

And it's always possible that they are never going to tell you exactly
how many licenses have been sold or to whom.

--
Regards,
Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
Dan Barclay

Posts: 889
Registered: 11/9/03
Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 23, 2015 4:32 PM   in response to: Bruce McGee in response to: Bruce McGee
Bruce McGee wrote:

Dominique Willems wrote:

Bruce McGee wrote:
Most likely referring to both large and small customers.

I'm sure there's a formula somewhere that would allow us to
calculate a more accurate amount of licenses based on a probable
distribution of customer kind. But it's a very good sign that Randy
Jacops has the honesty to actually mention numbers at all. IIRC
this is a first, but I could be wrong.

And it's always possible that they are never going to tell you exactly
how many licenses have been sold or to whom.

Possible? Certain IMHO. They're not stupid enough to publish that
kind of proprietary info. I hope.

Dan
Jeff Overcash (...

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Registered: 9/23/99
Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 23, 2015 9:16 PM   in response to: Dominique Willems in response to: Dominique Willems
Dominique Willems wrote:
Bruce McGee wrote:
Most likely referring to both large and small customers.

I'm sure there's a formula somewhere that would allow us to calculate a
more accurate amount of licenses based on a probable distribution of
customer kind. But it's a very good sign that Randy Jacops has the
honesty to actually mention numbers at all. IIRC this is a first, but I
could be wrong.

He mentioned millions of users. No need to try and guess based on the 10,000+
customer number since he gives us a ball park size of users too. The people
that want to spin this badly want to selectively ignore that part because it
does not support their idea of things dying I guess.

--
Jeff Overcash (TeamB)
(Please do not email me directly unless asked. Thank You)
Learning is finding out what you already know. Doing is demonstrating that you
know it. Teaching is reminding others that they know it as well as you. We are
all leaners, doers, teachers. (R Bach)
Dominique Willems

Posts: 591
Registered: 10/26/99
Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 24, 2015 4:12 AM   in response to: Jeff Overcash (... in response to: Jeff Overcash (...
Jeff Overcash (TeamB) wrote:
He mentioned millions of users.

Don't want to spin anything, but users aren't current-product licenses.
You can have five trillion users and zero revenue. But this has already
been discussed to death.

Doesn't matter, his mentioning of numbers is a hopeful sign.
Dalija Prasnikar

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Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 24, 2015 6:42 AM   in response to: Dominique Willems in response to: Dominique Willems
Dominique Willems wrote:
Jeff Overcash (TeamB) wrote:
He mentioned millions of users.

Don't want to spin anything, but users aren't current-product licenses.
You can have five trillion users and zero revenue. But this has already
been discussed to death.

I maybe wrong but I read those millions of users as our customers ;-)

Doesn't matter, his mentioning of numbers is a hopeful sign.

Yep... no need to nitpick here...

Some numbers I could find Embarcadero had $100 M in revenue for 2012,
and Idera had revenue of $43.5 M for 2013.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embarcadero_Technologies

http://www.inc.com/profile/idera

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Dalija Prasnikar
Bruce McGee

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Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 24, 2015 7:44 AM   in response to: Dalija Prasnikar in response to: Dalija Prasnikar
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:

Yep... no need to nitpick here...

One can hope...

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Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
Gilbert Padilla

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Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 24, 2015 8:34 AM   in response to: Dalija Prasnikar in response to: Dalija Prasnikar
I maybe wrong but I read those millions of users as our customers ;-)

I see it as potential customers

Some numbers I could find Embarcadero had $100 M in revenue for 2012,
and Idera had revenue of $43.5 M for 2013.

$100M make sense for 10k customers.
Brandon Staggs

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Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 23, 2015 2:16 PM   in response to: Dominique Willems in response to: Dominique Willems
"Dominique Willems" wrote on Fri, 23 Oct 2015 08:18:04 -0700:

It does. Never in my wildest dreams had I expected the number to be so
very low. Never in my wildest dreams had I expected a company like
Idera to have the same amount of customers as EMBT.

10,000? Really?

I was told by someone at CodeGear a year or two after they spun off
that they had about a million licenses for their dev tools. It seems
really unlikely that they are down to just 10,000 now. Even if a
million was high (I have no reason to doubt the figure), 10,000 is
really, really tiny.

Given the focus on database tools I wonder if that number is about
database customers. That I could believe more easily.

If there are really only 10,000 "customers" of Embarcadero, with
database AND dev tools counted--- that's astonishingly low.

Now, I would be delighted to have that many customers paying me
recurring charges ever year, but I am just a one-man shop. :-)

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Brandon Staggs
StudyLamp Software LLC
http://www.studylamp.com
Brandon Staggs

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Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 23, 2015 2:21 PM   in response to: Brandon Staggs in response to: Brandon Staggs
"Brandon Staggs" wrote on Fri, 23 Oct 2015 14:16:39 -0700:

If there are really only 10,000 "customers" of Embarcadero, with
database AND dev tools counted--- that's astonishingly low.

And as someone else pointed out, customers is not the same as users,
so it's not that bad I guess. I have no idea how many "customers" one
would expect of a dev tool like Delphi -- most of the Delphi coders I
know are also individual customers, though I am also aware of Delphi
coders who only use the tools provided by their employer (the
customer)...

Anyway the letter being sent out is a good thing. I didn't read it as
a bunch of marketing nonsense as some others said it was. We still
need to see what will happen with Delphi but I am optimistic. I don't
see any of this as being "bad for Delphi."

--
Brandon Staggs
StudyLamp Software LLC
http://www.studylamp.com
Dominique Willems

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Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 23, 2015 2:26 PM   in response to: Brandon Staggs in response to: Brandon Staggs
Brandon Staggs wrote:
Now, I would be delighted to have that many customers paying me
recurring charges ever year, but I am just a one-man shop. :-)

I hear you. :)

The 10,000 is indeed for the entirety of EMBT, not just Delphi. But
some mentioned that it probably includes gigantic companies that have
hundreds of Delphi licenses each under one customer. So in license
terms the number will be maybe a factor larger.

If it were only 10,000, I think that'd just cover the payroll, if that.
Joseph Mitzen

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Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 26, 2015 1:44 AM   in response to: Dominique Willems in response to: Dominique Willems
Dominique Willems wrote:
Brandon Staggs wrote:
Now, I would be delighted to have that many customers paying me
recurring charges ever year, but I am just a one-man shop. :-)

I hear you. :)

The 10,000 is indeed for the entirety of EMBT, not just Delphi. But
some mentioned that it probably includes gigantic companies that have
hundreds of Delphi licenses each under one customer.

And what company, anywhere in the world, do you know of that employs hundreds of Delphi developers? Especially given the consensus here that Delphi's last remaining stronghold is the 1-5 developer shop? What country is it in? What does it produce? Where would I send my resume?

If it were only 10,000, I think that'd just cover the payroll, if that.

Think about it. They laid off most of the experienced developers and shift a lot of Delphi development off to Romania. They raised prices every year. They instituted mandatory subscriptions. They're hellbent on getting more users to buy Enterprise even if they have to change the EULA. They shipped whether a product was done or not. CodeGear sold for about $30 million (companies generally sell for a few times their yearly profit, 2x-5x). Even before it went private Embarcadero was called a "struggling database tools vendor" by the Motley Fool Investment Guide. They've had across-the-board 10% paycuts in the past to avoid layoffs. They went private when institutional investors demanded it before the stock dropped any lower.

They always acted like they were one failed release away from disaster. I'm sure it's higher than 10K, but not the 100x higher some people seem to imagine.
Bruce McGee

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Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 26, 2015 4:47 AM   in response to: Joseph Mitzen in response to: Joseph Mitzen
Joseph Mitzen wrote:

Think about it. They laid off most of the experienced developers and
shift a lot of Delphi development off to Romania. They raised prices
every year. They instituted mandatory subscriptions. They're hellbent
on getting more users to buy Enterprise even if they have to change
the EULA. They shipped whether a product was done or not. CodeGear
sold for about $30 million (companies generally sell for a few times
their yearly profit, 2x-5x). Even before it went private Embarcadero
was called a "struggling data base tools vendor" by the Motley Fool
Investment Guide. They've had across-the-board 10% paycuts in the
past to avoid layoffs. They went private when institutional investors
demanded it before the stock dropped any lower.

More questionable information from your "Delphi insider"?

--
Regards,
Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
Markus Humm

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Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 26, 2015 11:39 AM   in response to: Bruce McGee in response to: Bruce McGee
Am 26.10.2015 um 12:47 schrieb Bruce McGee:
Joseph Mitzen wrote:

Think about it. They laid off most of the experienced developers and
shift a lot of Delphi development off to Romania. They raised prices
every year. They instituted mandatory subscriptions. They're hellbent
on getting more users to buy Enterprise even if they have to change
the EULA. They shipped whether a product was done or not. CodeGear
sold for about $30 million (companies generally sell for a few times
their yearly profit, 2x-5x). Even before it went private Embarcadero
was called a "struggling data base tools vendor" by the Motley Fool
Investment Guide. They've had across-the-board 10% paycuts in the
past to avoid layoffs. They went private when institutional investors
demanded it before the stock dropped any lower.

More questionable information from your "Delphi insider"?

Hello,

that they shifted some of the development to Romania a few years ago is
a fact. They reduced that afaik in favour of development in Russia and
Spain.

Greetings

Markus
Bruce McGee

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Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 26, 2015 12:23 PM   in response to: Markus Humm in response to: Markus Humm
Markus Humm wrote:

that they shifted some of the development to Romania a few years ago
is a fact.

Some <> most.

And what development exactly are you referring to? Rad Studio? DB
Tools? Other?

They reduced that afaik in favour of development in Russia
and Spain.

Do you know what development is being done where and why?

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Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
Markus Humm

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Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 26, 2015 2:02 PM   in response to: Bruce McGee in response to: Bruce McGee
Am 26.10.2015 um 20:23 schrieb Bruce McGee:
Markus Humm wrote:

that they shifted some of the development to Romania a few years ago
is a fact.

Some <> most.

And what development exactly are you referring to? Rad Studio? DB
Tools? Other?

I'm only concerned with Rad Studio.
Afaik there also was a doc team in Romania.



They reduced that afaik in favour of development in Russia
and Spain.

Do you know what development is being done where and why?

Not exactly. Afaik some came in by buying the bases which form FMX and
FireDAC.

Greetings

Markus
Bruce McGee

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Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 26, 2015 3:16 PM   in response to: Markus Humm in response to: Markus Humm
Markus Humm wrote:

Am 26.10.2015 um 20:23 schrieb Bruce McGee:
And what development exactly are you referring to? Rad Studio? DB
Tools? Other?

I'm only concerned with Rad Studio.
Afaik there also was a doc team in Romania.

And some other stuff.

Do you know what development is being done where and why?

Not exactly. Afaik some came in by buying the bases which form FMX and
FireDAC.

And neither does anyone else who isn't at Embarcadero.

So maybe don't be too eager to buy Joseph's snake oil.

--
Regards,
Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
Markus Humm

Posts: 5,113
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Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 27, 2015 12:14 PM   in response to: Bruce McGee in response to: Bruce McGee
Am 26.10.2015 um 23:16 schrieb Bruce McGee:
Markus Humm wrote:

Am 26.10.2015 um 20:23 schrieb Bruce McGee:
And what development exactly are you referring to? Rad Studio? DB
Tools? Other?

I'm only concerned with Rad Studio.
Afaik there also was a doc team in Romania.

And some other stuff.

Do you know what development is being done where and why?

Not exactly. Afaik some came in by buying the bases which form FMX and
FireDAC.

And neither does anyone else who isn't at Embarcadero.

So maybe don't be too eager to buy Joseph's snake oil.

I'm not too eager, but at the time they started at those places they
laid off staff in the US afaik.And not everything they bought/started in
those countries was of stellar quality. Sorry to say, but true.

Greetings

Markus
Bruce McGee

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Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 27, 2015 12:32 PM   in response to: Markus Humm in response to: Markus Humm
Markus Humm wrote:

Am 26.10.2015 um 23:16 schrieb Bruce McGee:

So maybe don't be too eager to buy Joseph's snake oil.

I'm not too eager, but at the time they started at those places they
laid off staff in the US afaik.

That's only part of the story, and the people who know more can't say.

Which is frustrating because I'd love to see someone at Embarcadero mow
through these half-truths like a weed whacker.

But Allen Bauer did this the first time Embarcadero had a press release
about increased revenues. Some people just called him a liar.

And not everything they bought/started
in those countries was of stellar quality. Sorry to say, but true.

If people keep repeating a myth, it becomes "common knowledge".

I'll just say that both crap code and some outstanding stuff were
written both domestically and abroad. The whole QPS thing was intended
to reduce the former and increase the latter.

If I could get all of the inside details on one thing, I would love to
know every single gory detail (including names) of how the streaming
code was mangled in XE3 and not fixed until XE5. I'd be willing to sign
an NDA if anyone at Embarcadero wants to take me up on it.

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Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
Lajos Juhasz

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Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 27, 2015 1:23 PM   in response to: Bruce McGee in response to: Bruce McGee
Bruce McGee wrote:

If I could get all of the inside details on one thing, I would love to
know every single gory detail (including names) of how the streaming
code was mangled in XE3 and not fixed until XE5. I'd be willing to
sign an NDA if anyone at Embarcadero wants to take me up on it.

I am also interested why TBytesStream is stil bugged. I wonder why
there isn't any test on this
(https://forums.embarcadero.com/thread.jspa?messageID=713609&tstart=0#713609):

var
   AttachedPDF: string;
   Stream : TBytesStream;
    b : TBytes ;
begin
    AttachedPDF:='D:\temp\Cake Order Form.pdf';
    Stream := TBytesStream.Create;
    Stream.LoadFromFile( AttachedPDF );
//    Stream.Size:=Stream.Size; <- This will give the correct result as 
// it changes the capacity to 84367
 
    b := Stream.Bytes ;


The file is 84367 bytes. After loading into the stream the stream
capacity is 90112 and of course b will contain that much bytes 5745
bytes more than it should. The property just returns the entire buffer
not only the first stream.size bytes that is valid in the stream.
Eivind Bakkestuen


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Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 27, 2015 5:58 PM   in response to: Lajos Juhasz in response to: Lajos Juhasz
The file is 84367 bytes. After loading into the stream the stream
capacity is 90112 and of course b will contain that much bytes 5745
bytes more than it should. The property just returns the entire buffer
not only the first stream.size bytes that is valid in the stream.

Well, that's exactly how it is documented (at least in 10 Seattle):

"The Bytes property returns the buffer in which the data is stored. Use
the Size property to find the actual amount of data in the buffer. "

It doesn't seem like a bug to me. The buffer has the size of Capacity.
WAD.

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Eivind Bakkestuen [NDD]
Lajos Juhasz

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Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 28, 2015 8:34 AM   in response to: Eivind Bakkestuen in response to: Eivind Bakkestuen
Eivind Bakkestuen wrote:

Well, that's exactly how it is documented (at least in 10 Seattle):

"The Bytes property returns the buffer in which the data is stored.
Use the Size property to find the actual amount of data in the
buffer. "

It doesn't seem like a bug to me. The buffer has the size of Capacity.
WAD.

Then I will call it a bug in design. The buffer is an implementation
detail of the Stream. The stream should return the valid bytes stored
in it.
Eivind Bakkestuen


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Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 28, 2015 3:47 PM   in response to: Lajos Juhasz in response to: Lajos Juhasz
Then I will call it a bug in design. The buffer is an implementation
detail of the Stream. The stream should return the valid bytes stored
in it.

The stream certainly does. But the buffer property is documented to
not necessarily return exactly what you want, so I don't know what
there is to discuss.

If you feel strongly that it is a design flaw/bug, then post your link
to the QP issue you have created, so others may vote if they agree.

--
Eivind Bakkestuen [NDD]
Vladimir Ulchenko

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Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 28, 2015 11:34 PM   in response to: Eivind Bakkestuen in response to: Eivind Bakkestuen
On Wed, 28 Oct 2015 15:47:09 -0700, Eivind Bakkestuen <Ieivind.bakkestuenHATE@nexusdb.comSPAM> wrote:

If you feel strongly that it is a design flaw/bug, then post your link
to the QP issue you have created, so others may vote if they agree.

and better share it in different thread

--
Vladimir Ulchenko aka vavan
Bruce McGee

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Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 29, 2015 3:43 AM   in response to: Vladimir Ulchenko in response to: Vladimir Ulchenko
Vladimir Ulchenko wrote:

On Wed, 28 Oct 2015 15:47:09 -0700, Eivind Bakkestuen
<Ieivind.bakkestuenHATE@nexusdb.comSPAM> wrote:

If you feel strongly that it is a design flaw/bug, then post your
link to the QP issue you have created, so others may vote if they
agree.

and better share it in different thread

Good idea.

More people will notice it there as opposed to it being buried in this
thread.

--
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Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
Lajos Juhasz

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Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 30, 2015 6:31 AM   in response to: Bruce McGee in response to: Bruce McGee
Bruce McGee wrote:

Vladimir Ulchenko wrote:

On Wed, 28 Oct 2015 15:47:09 -0700, Eivind Bakkestuen
<Ieivind.bakkestuenHATE@nexusdb.comSPAM> wrote:

If you feel strongly that it is a design flaw/bug, then post your
link to the QP issue you have created, so others may vote if they
agree.

and better share it in different thread

Good idea.

More people will notice it there as opposed to it being buried in this
thread.

I'm not using that class so for me it's not a problem.
Joseph Mitzen

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Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 26, 2015 11:13 PM   in response to: Bruce McGee in response to: Bruce McGee
Bruce McGee wrote:
Joseph Mitzen wrote:

Think about it. They laid off most of the experienced developers and
shift a lot of Delphi development off to Romania. They raised prices
every year. They instituted mandatory subscriptions. They're hellbent
on getting more users to buy Enterprise even if they have to change
the EULA. They shipped whether a product was done or not. CodeGear
sold for about $30 million (companies generally sell for a few times
their yearly profit, 2x-5x). Even before it went private Embarcadero
was called a "struggling data base tools vendor" by the Motley Fool
Investment Guide. They've had across-the-board 10% paycuts in the
past to avoid layoffs. They went private when institutional investors
demanded it before the stock dropped any lower.

More questionable information from your "Delphi insider"?

Bruce, why don't you read up on the history of Embarcadero before commenting on posts like this, then you'll be able to constructively contribute to the discussion. I believe I mentioned one publication, Motley Fool Investment Guide, to help you get started. If you investigate hard enough, you might also find a copy of the lawsuit in which (now former?) EMBT CEO Wayne Williams was accused of cheating another company out of millions of dollars at his last firm (which was acquired by EMBT). EMBT didn't even bother to file a reply (that I could find) before settling out of court.
Bruce McGee

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Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 27, 2015 3:28 AM   in response to: Joseph Mitzen in response to: Joseph Mitzen
Joseph Mitzen wrote:

Bruce, why don't you read up on the history of Embarcadero before
commenting on posts like this,

The real history, or the one you've cobbled together from people who
pretend to be insiders?

If half (being generous) is made up or deliberately distorted, why
would I try to figure out which half?

--
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Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
Joseph Mitzen

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Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 26, 2015 12:33 AM   in response to: Dominique Willems in response to: Dominique Willems
Dominique Willems wrote:
Asbjørn Heid wrote:
The letter states both. It says both Idera and EMB has 10k customers
each, which together makes 20k.

It does. Never in my wildest dreams had I expected the number to be so
very low.

You would have if you read any of my posts. :-)
Dominique Willems

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Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 26, 2015 2:42 AM   in response to: Joseph Mitzen in response to: Joseph Mitzen
Joseph Mitzen wrote:
You would have if you read any of my posts. :-)

They make too much sense, so I'm sticking to whatever the others are
smoking. Happy happy.
Joseph Mitzen

Posts: 392
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Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 26, 2015 1:36 AM   in response to: Dominique Willems in response to: Dominique Willems
Dominique Willems wrote:
Asbjørn Heid wrote:
The letter states both. It says both Idera and EMB has 10k customers
each, which together makes 20k.

It does. Never in my wildest dreams had I expected the number to be so
very low. Never in my wildest dreams had I expected a company like
Idera to have the same amount of customers as EMBT.

10,000? Really?

I can't resist. ;-)

https://youtu.be/lKie-vgUGdI
Dominique Willems

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Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 26, 2015 2:41 AM   in response to: Joseph Mitzen in response to: Joseph Mitzen
Joseph Mitzen wrote:

LOL!
Jeff Overcash (...

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Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 23, 2015 10:29 AM   in response to: Arnaud Bouchez in response to: Arnaud Bouchez
Arnaud Bouchez wrote:
Jeff Overcash (TeamB) wrote:
Just got an email from them (I'm most of us are getting it) but thought I'd post
the part pertinent to Delphi

The letter states that they have 20,000 customers...

Yes I know one business that is a customer of theirs that has 20 developer, so
20 licenses for a single customer. That would be a small number for a fortune
500 company.

It sounds more realistic than the numbers given for Delphi users.
Even if it for all their tools.
:)

In our forums, we have 1,384 registered users (real humans: we do not accept bots).
It sounds like if Open Source projects are able to gather a lot of users.

You are confusing a customer with a user. They are not the same thing here.

And certainly because we maintain support from Delphi 6 up to Seattle (and even Delphi 5 for some part of our libraries)... we may have more users than the current number of registered Delphi users.

In the letter, the community has a special place.
I hope future of Delphi would see Open Source projects as a change, not as competition.
See http://synopse.info/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=17453#p17453

--
Jeff Overcash (TeamB)
(Please do not email me directly unless asked. Thank You)
Learning is finding out what you already know. Doing is demonstrating that you
know it. Teaching is reminding others that they know it as well as you. We are
all leaners, doers, teachers. (R Bach)

Gilbert Padilla

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Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 23, 2015 6:04 PM   in response to: Jeff Overcash (... in response to: Jeff Overcash (...
You are confusing a customer with a user. They are not the same thing
here.

Who generates the income, the users or the customers?
Jeff Overcash (...

Posts: 1,529
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Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 23, 2015 9:15 PM   in response to: Gilbert Padilla in response to: Gilbert Padilla
Gilbert Padilla wrote:
You are confusing a customer with a user. They are not the same thing
here.

Who generates the income, the users or the customers?

Customers by in bulk, have a customer rep and other items that tend to generate
revenue above and beyond just the sale of the user license.

I do not think single user licenses are included in that 10,000 customers quote.
Earlier customer was defined in context of global 2000 companies, so much much
larger than a single off the shelf sale.

also from the email

"Embarcadero also built a roster of over 10,000 customers and millions of users,
serving nearly the entire Global 2000"

He still claims millions of users. A user <> a customer. Randy Jacops mentioned
both the customer size (in terms of over 10,000) and user base size, but for
some reason people want to ignore that he said the user base size is and guess
at the user base size based on the customer base size.

--
Jeff Overcash (TeamB)
(Please do not email me directly unless asked. Thank You)
Learning is finding out what you already know. Doing is demonstrating that you
know it. Teaching is reminding others that they know it as well as you. We are
all leaners, doers, teachers. (R Bach)
Gilbert Padilla

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Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 24, 2015 8:46 AM   in response to: Jeff Overcash (... in response to: Jeff Overcash (...
also from the email

"Embarcadero also built a roster of over 10,000 customers and millions of
users,
serving nearly the entire Global 2000"

He still claims millions of users. A user <> a customer. Randy Jacops
mentioned
both the customer size (in terms of over 10,000) and user base size, but for
some reason people want to ignore that he said the user base size is and
guess
at the user base size based on the customer base size.

I believe that customers refers to corporate and current owners of the
latest Delphi version.
While users could be anyone using a Delphi version since 1995, so users
could be potential customers.

Joseph Mitzen

Posts: 392
Registered: 6/9/02
Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 26, 2015 12:39 AM   in response to: Jeff Overcash (... in response to: Jeff Overcash (...
Jeff Overcash (TeamB) wrote:

I do not think single user licenses are included in that 10,000 customers quote.

Please don't say something like this. In the game of "Delphi telephone", this will travel through 2 or 3 forums and become gospel truth by then.

"Embarcadero also built a roster of over 10,000 customers and millions of users,
serving nearly the entire Global 2000"

He still claims millions of users. A user <> a customer. Randy Jacops mentioned
both the customer size (in terms of over 10,000) and user base size, but for
some reason people want to ignore that he said the user base size is and guess
at the user base size based on the customer base size.

That applies to the database end, but this doesn't apply to Delphi. Oracle can have one customer which has 200 employees accessing the database. There are no outfits that purchase hundreds of Delphi licenses.


--
Jeff Overcash (TeamB)
(Please do not email me directly unless asked. Thank You)
Learning is finding out what you already know. Doing is demonstrating that you
know it. Teaching is reminding others that they know it as well as you. We are
all leaners, doers, teachers. (R Bach)
Eduardo Elias

Posts: 319
Registered: 9/20/12
Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 25, 2015 4:34 PM   in response to: Arnaud Bouchez in response to: Arnaud Bouchez
Hello Arnaud,

Eventually this number is really bigger than 20,000

On my city, Campinas, there is a lot of Delphi programmers, mostly now showing
their age, however many companies using it.

Sure, I see basically stuck with Delphi 5 - 7, some with 2006.

The price of Delphi is too high down here. Basically you buy 4 good notebooks
for 1 license of Delphi + mobile pack.

So, the underground community is big and due the smartphone compilers is
now getting some life back again.

Maybe I could risk that 10,000 programmers are possible to find only in Brazil.
Sure some are shifting to other languages and just mantaining old code. But
there are a lot of them.

If I am not wrong, Russia and China is not far from this.

However Customer is those that pay, and in this category it is not frequent
that I find a legitimate Customer down here. I hope this change soon.

Eduardo

Jeff Overcash (TeamB) wrote:
Just got an email from them (I'm most of us are getting it) but
thought I'd post
the part pertinent to Delphi
The letter states that they have 20,000 customers...

It sounds more realistic than the numbers given for Delphi users.
Even if it for all their tools.
:)
In our forums, we have 1,384 registered users (real humans: we do not
accept bots).

It sounds like if Open Source projects are able to gather a lot of
users.

And certainly because we maintain support from Delphi 6 up to Seattle
(and even Delphi 5 for some part of our libraries)... we may have more
users than the current number of registered Delphi users.

In the letter, the community has a special place.
I hope future of Delphi would see Open Source projects as a change,
not as competition.
See http://synopse.info/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=17453#p17453
Luigi Sandon

Posts: 353
Registered: 10/15/99
Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 24, 2015 10:30 AM   in response to: Jeff Overcash (... in response to: Jeff Overcash (...
emphasize the tremendous value we perceive in development tools. As applications

It's good news because it should mean dev tools should be part of their plans, and was not just an "unwanted" part of the acquisition.

To that end, we formed a new leadership team that will focus exclusively on Embarcadero’s development tools

This is could also be better news if the Embarcadero managlement is reviewed and deeply changed...
Markus Humm

Posts: 5,113
Registered: 11/9/03
Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 25, 2015 1:28 AM   in response to: Luigi Sandon in response to: Luigi Sandon
Am 24.10.2015 um 19:30 schrieb Luigi Sandon:
emphasize the tremendous value we perceive in development tools. As applications

It's good news because it should mean dev tools should be part of their plans, and was not just an "unwanted" part of the acquisition.

To that end, we formed a new leadership team that will focus exclusively on Embarcadero’s development tools

This is could also be better news if the Embarcadero managlement is reviewed and deeply changed...

Do you want to mangle the management? ;-)

Greetings

Markus
Gord Pollock

Posts: 34
Registered: 12/13/03
Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 24, 2015 10:54 AM   in response to: Jeff Overcash (... in response to: Jeff Overcash (...
Hopefully they (Idera) will revisit the new policies of churning out a
new version every six months and not providing bug fix updates unless
you are on subscription.


On 22/10/2015 11:36 AM, Jeff Overcash (TeamB) wrote:

Just got an email from them (I'm most of us are getting it) but thought I'd post
the part pertinent to Delphi
Eli M

Posts: 1,346
Registered: 11/9/13
Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 24, 2015 1:06 PM   in response to: Gord Pollock in response to: Gord Pollock
Yes, I'd like to see them release an update once a month and do public betas.
Ole Ekerhovd

Posts: 50
Registered: 2/20/03
Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 25, 2015 10:09 AM   in response to: Gord Pollock in response to: Gord Pollock
Hopefully they (Idera) will revisit the new policies of churning out a
new version every six months and not providing bug fix updates unless
you are on subscription.

Yes, let's really hope so.

Ole

Bob Bobson

Posts: 23
Registered: 8/22/14
Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 24, 2015 3:18 PM   in response to: Jeff Overcash (... in response to: Jeff Overcash (...
Some of the responses to this thread boggle my mind. I find it incomprehensible that anyone (after 2005 or so) ever actually took the claims of "MILLIONS OF DELPHI DEVELOPERS!" seriously. There is just no possible way that there is, or has been for a long time, anywhere CLOSE to that many legally licensed Delphi developers. I would honestly find it perfectly reasonable if you told me that there were LESS than 10,000 individual worldwide users today. As much as we all may love Delphi here, we also need to be realistic and accept that it is a very, very, very niche product in the year 2015.

Edited by: Bob Bobson on Oct 24, 2015 7:42 PM
Phillip Woon

Posts: 189
Registered: 9/30/99
Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 24, 2015 11:17 PM   in response to: Bob Bobson in response to: Bob Bobson
Bob Bobson wrote:
Some of the responses to this thread boggle my mind. I find it incomprehensible that anyone (after 2005 or so) ever actually took the claims of "MILLIONS OF DELPHI DEVELOPERS!" seriously. There is just no possible way that there is, or has been for a long time, anywhere CLOSE to that many legally licensed Delphi developers. I would honestly find it perfectly reasonable if you told me that there were LESS than 10,000 individual worldwide users today. As much as we all may love Delphi here, we also need to be realistic and accept that it is a very, very, very niche product in the year 2015.

Edited by: Bob Bobson on Oct 24, 2015 7:42 PM

So what you're saying is that they're lying?
Bob Bobson

Posts: 23
Registered: 8/22/14
Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 25, 2015 12:16 AM   in response to: Phillip Woon in response to: Phillip Woon
Phillip Woon wrote:
Bob Bobson wrote:
Some of the responses to this thread boggle my mind. I find it incomprehensible that anyone (after 2005 or so) ever actually took the claims of "MILLIONS OF DELPHI DEVELOPERS!" seriously. There is just no possible way that there is, or has been for a long time, anywhere CLOSE to that many legally licensed Delphi developers. I would honestly find it perfectly reasonable if you told me that there were LESS than 10,000 individual worldwide users today. As much as we all may love Delphi here, we also need to be realistic and accept that it is a very, very, very niche product in the year 2015.

Edited by: Bob Bobson on Oct 24, 2015 7:42 PM

So what you're saying is that they're lying?

Pretty much, yes. Or at the very least heavily distorting the statistics in their own favor. It is just simply impossible for there to be that many paying Delphi developers in the world right now, period. There is no reasonable evidence that anyone will ever be able to provide that proves otherwise. If you honestly believed those ludicrous claims, then do I ever have a lovely bridge to sell you...
Bruce McGee

Posts: 1,716
Registered: 9/30/99
Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 25, 2015 7:14 AM   in response to: Bob Bobson in response to: Bob Bobson
Bob Bobson wrote:

Phillip Woon wrote:
So what you're saying is that they're lying?

Pretty much, yes.

Then there is no sense asking them anything since you can just dismiss
it as more lying.

--
Regards,
Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
Joseph Mitzen

Posts: 392
Registered: 6/9/02
Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 26, 2015 1:07 AM   in response to: Bruce McGee in response to: Bruce McGee
Bruce McGee wrote:

Then there is no sense asking them anything since you can just dismiss
it as more lying.


How about instead of asking anyone anything we look at the data that exists, which shouldn't be any different from what they're doing in the first place?
Bruce McGee

Posts: 1,716
Registered: 9/30/99
Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 26, 2015 4:04 AM   in response to: Joseph Mitzen in response to: Joseph Mitzen
Joseph Mitzen wrote:

Bruce McGee wrote:

Then there is no sense asking them anything since you can just
dismiss it as more lying.


How about instead of asking anyone anything we look at the data that
exists, which shouldn't be any different from what they're doing in
the first place?

That would be refreshing. Let me know when that begins.

--
Regards,
Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
Joseph Mitzen

Posts: 392
Registered: 6/9/02
Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 26, 2015 10:51 PM   in response to: Bruce McGee in response to: Bruce McGee
Bruce McGee wrote:
Joseph Mitzen wrote:

Bruce McGee wrote:

Then there is no sense asking them anything since you can just
dismiss it as more lying.


How about instead of asking anyone anything we look at the data that
exists, which shouldn't be any different from what they're doing in
the first place?

That would be refreshing. Let me know when that begins.

It did begin, years ago, from GitHub analyses to Stack Overflow analyses to surveys to data from popular social media sites. It was summarily ignored.

Bruce McGee

Posts: 1,716
Registered: 9/30/99
Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 27, 2015 3:30 AM   in response to: Joseph Mitzen in response to: Joseph Mitzen
Joseph Mitzen wrote:

It did begin, years ago, from GitHub analyses to Stack Overflow
analyses to surveys to data from popular social media sites.

I see you stopped quoting Tiobe as proof that Delphi was dead.

http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html

It was
summarily ignored.

With your track record, why should I take you seriously?

--
Regards,
Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
Brian Hamilton ...

Posts: 556
Registered: 10/14/04
Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 25, 2015 10:34 AM   in response to: Bob Bobson in response to: Bob Bobson
It is just simply impossible for there to be that many paying Delphi developers in the world right now, period.
I think you are misunderstanding between paying developers and people that use Delphi
Bob Bobson

Posts: 23
Registered: 8/22/14
Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 25, 2015 2:48 PM   in response to: Brian Hamilton ... in response to: Brian Hamilton ...
Brian Hamilton Hamilton wrote:
It is just simply impossible for there to be that many paying Delphi developers in the world right now, period.
I think you are misunderstanding between paying developers and people that use Delphi

Delphi certainly does have a disproportionately high number of non-paying (i.e. pirate) users amongst the users who do actually exist, but they still do not come anywhere close to adding up to millions.
Nick Hodges

Posts: 2,414
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 25, 2015 3:21 PM   in response to: Bob Bobson in response to: Bob Bobson
Bob Bobson wrote:


Delphi certainly does have a disproportionately high number of
non-paying (i.e. pirate) users amongst the users who do actually
exist, but they still do not come anywhere close to adding up to
millions.

How do you know?

--
Nick
Delphi Programming is Fun
Bob Bobson

Posts: 23
Registered: 8/22/14
Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 25, 2015 6:31 PM   in response to: Nick Hodges in response to: Nick Hodges
Nick Hodges wrote:
Bob Bobson wrote:


Delphi certainly does have a disproportionately high number of
non-paying (i.e. pirate) users amongst the users who do actually
exist, but they still do not come anywhere close to adding up to
millions.

How do you know?

--
Nick
Delphi Programming is Fun

Because it's just common sense, Nick. If there were literally millions of active individual Delphi users then there would be an exponentially, overwhelmingly higher amount of Delphi-related discussion in forums, blogs, e.t.c than there is now. There would also be way, way, way, way, way more Delphi-based projects on sites like SourceForge, GitHub, e.t.c. Finally, the amount of notable closed-source commercial applications built with Delphi would also be significantly higher. If you're going to insist on picking at semantics, though, then it is true that I cannot physically, directly prove that there are not millions of Delphi users, but at the same time there is as I have stated absolutely NO evidence to prove that there are. If they somehow exist (which again, anyone who isn't delusional knows they don't) then the VAST majority of them are not producing ANY finished applications or sharing any of their code with anyone, and they are almost entirely using pirated versions of the software.
Joseph Mitzen

Posts: 392
Registered: 6/9/02
Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 26, 2015 1:32 AM   in response to: Bob Bobson in response to: Bob Bobson
Bob Bobson wrote:
Nick Hodges wrote:
Bob Bobson wrote:


Delphi certainly does have a disproportionately high number of
non-paying (i.e. pirate) users amongst the users who do actually
exist, but they still do not come anywhere close to adding up to
millions.

How do you know?

--
Nick
Delphi Programming is Fun

Because it's just common sense, Nick. If there were literally millions of active individual Delphi users then there would be an exponentially, overwhelmingly higher amount of Delphi-related discussion in forums, blogs, e.t.c than there is now. There would
also be way, way, way, way, way more Delphi-based projects on sites like SourceForge, GitHub, e.t.c. Finally, the amount of notable closed-source commercial applications built with Delphi would also be significantly higher. If you're going to insist on picking
at semantics, though, then it is true that I cannot physically, directly prove that there are not millions of Delphi users, but at the same time there is as I have stated absolutely NO evidence to prove that there are. If they somehow exist (which again, anyone
who isn't delusional knows they don't) then the VAST majority of them are not producing ANY finished applications or sharing any of their code with anyone, and they are almost entirely using pirated versions of the software.

Sigh... we went through this same thing with Nick many years ago. :-( Some poor poster listed over half a dozen observations that showed that most Delphi users did not use Delphi.NET (including a German forum shutting down their Delphi.NET section for lack of posts, figures from Torry.net, survey data, etc.). Nick insisted that he had special internal data (I'm betting now Michael Swindell, father of "1.75 million Delphi users", generated those data too) that showed there were a great deal of Delphi.NET users. Whoever was presenting all the data then insisted that the Delphi.NET SKU must be shipping to some other planet in this solar system. :-) Of course, when another company bought CodeGear they must have seen this special data and still canceled Delphi.NET as one of their first actions.

Now we have another sale and it seems that history does indeed repeat itself. :-) Nick, I think you're trapped in Groundhog ~~Day~~ Decade! ;-) ;-) ;-)
Nick Hodges

Posts: 2,414
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Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 26, 2015 5:39 AM   in response to: Bob Bobson in response to: Bob Bobson
Bob Bobson wrote:

If there were literally millions of active individual Delphi users
then there would be an exponentially, overwhelmingly higher amount of
Delphi-related discussion in forums, blogs, e.t.c than there is now

Even if all those developers spoke only Russian and Chinese?

I cannot physically, directly prove that there are not millions of
Delphi users, but at the same time there is as I have stated
absolutely NO evidence to prove that there are.

That's a more reasonable statement.

they are almost entirely using pirated versions of the software.

That's not hard to believe.

--
Nick
Delphi Programming is Fun
Dan Barclay

Posts: 889
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Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 26, 2015 8:47 AM   in response to: Nick Hodges in response to: Nick Hodges
Nick Hodges wrote:
Bob Bobson wrote:

If there were literally millions of active individual Delphi users
then there would be an exponentially, overwhelmingly higher amount of
Delphi-related discussion in forums, blogs, e.t.c than there is now

Even if all those developers spoke only Russian and Chinese?

I cannot physically, directly prove that there are not millions of
Delphi users, but at the same time there is as I have stated
absolutely NO evidence to prove that there are.

That's a more reasonable statement.

they are almost entirely using pirated versions of the software.

That's not hard to believe.

Leading to an observation that the PITA license lock only serves to frustrate (and concern) legitimate users.

Since I can't compile without my install phoning home, my own software is behind their lock.

Dan
Bruce McGee

Posts: 1,716
Registered: 9/30/99
Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition [Edit]
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  Posted: Oct 26, 2015 9:13 AM   in response to: Dan Barclay in response to: Dan Barclay
Dan Barclay wrote:

Since I can't compile without my install phoning home,

You can't? That would be bad.

--
Regards,
Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
Dan Barclay

Posts: 889
Registered: 11/9/03
Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition [Edit]
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  Posted: Oct 26, 2015 9:19 AM   in response to: Bruce McGee in response to: Bruce McGee
Bruce McGee wrote:
Dan Barclay wrote:

Since I can't compile without my install phoning home,

You can't? That would be bad.

So, your machine crashes...

I take it you can install Delphi on a new machine, without it connecting to Emb/Codegear?

If that is supported, and there is a link to that procedure, I'd like to have it. I don't.

Thanks,
Dan
Bruce McGee

Posts: 1,716
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Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition [Edit]
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  Posted: Oct 26, 2015 9:31 AM   in response to: Dan Barclay in response to: Dan Barclay
Dan Barclay wrote:

Bruce McGee wrote:
Dan Barclay wrote:

Since I can't compile without my install phoning home,

You can't? That would be bad.

So, your machine crashes...

I take it you can install Delphi on a new machine, without it
connecting to Emb/Codegear?

That's registration.

I thought you meant that Delphi phones home every time you compile.

If that is supported, and there is a link to that procedure, I'd like
to have it. I don't.

As far as I know, you need to register your installs. I think you can
still get a registration file for a given computer, but that still
requires you to contact Embarcadero.

--
Regards,
Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
Dan Barclay

Posts: 889
Registered: 11/9/03
Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition [Edit]
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  Posted: Oct 27, 2015 10:02 AM   in response to: Bruce McGee in response to: Bruce McGee
Bruce McGee wrote:

Dan Barclay wrote:

Bruce McGee wrote:
Dan Barclay wrote:

Since I can't compile without my install phoning home,

You can't? That would be bad.

So, your machine crashes...

I take it you can install Delphi on a new machine, without it
connecting to Emb/Codegear?

That's registration.

I thought you meant that Delphi phones home every time you compile.

If that is supported, and there is a link to that procedure, I'd
like to have it. I don't.

As far as I know, you need to register your installs. I think you can
still get a registration file for a given computer, but that still
requires you to contact Embarcadero.

That is what I had understood as well. I hoped you'd tell me I was
wrong.

That being the case, I stand by my earlier response regarding high
usage counts being pirated of "... an observation that the PITA license
lock only serves to frustrate (and concern) legitimate users."

It is my observation, and opinion, not presented as polled data or fact
regarding more than this one user. YMMV.

Dan
Bruce McGee

Posts: 1,716
Registered: 9/30/99
Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition [Edit]
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  Posted: Oct 27, 2015 10:28 AM   in response to: Dan Barclay in response to: Dan Barclay
Dan Barclay wrote:

That is what I had understood as well. I hoped you'd tell me I was
wrong.

Wish I could.

If it helps, you can reinstall on the same computer without
re-activating.

Personally, I do all of my development in virtual machines, which makes
this less of an issue. I have moved the same VM with the same
registration between several computers.

That being the case, I stand by my earlier response regarding high
usage counts being pirated of "... an observation that the PITA
license lock only serves to frustrate (and concern) legitimate users."

I won't argue that.

--
Regards,
Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
Dan Barclay

Posts: 889
Registered: 11/9/03
Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition [Edit]
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  Posted: Oct 27, 2015 2:53 PM   in response to: Bruce McGee in response to: Bruce McGee
Bruce McGee wrote:

Dan Barclay wrote:

That is what I had understood as well. I hoped you'd tell me I was
wrong.

Wish I could.

If it helps, you can reinstall on the same computer without
re-activating.

Personally, I do all of my development in virtual machines, which
makes this less of an issue. I have moved the same VM with the same
registration between several computers.

That being the case, I stand by my earlier response regarding high
usage counts being pirated of "... an observation that the PITA
license lock only serves to frustrate (and concern) legitimate
users."

I won't argue that.

We've used virtual for servers but I haven't used a virtual machine for
development, but maybe I should give that a try. My next install
circus may do that.

Dan
Bruce McGee

Posts: 1,716
Registered: 9/30/99
Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition [Edit]
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  Posted: Oct 27, 2015 3:09 PM   in response to: Dan Barclay in response to: Dan Barclay
Dan Barclay wrote:

We've used virtual for servers but I haven't used a virtual machine
for development, but maybe I should give that a try. My next install
circus may do that.

Highly recommended.

I've been doing it this way for almost ten years.

I use VMWare Workstation, but there are other, free options such as
VirtualBox.

--
Regards,
Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
Markus Humm

Posts: 5,113
Registered: 11/9/03
Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition [Edit]
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  Posted: Oct 28, 2015 2:38 PM   in response to: Bruce McGee in response to: Bruce McGee
Am 27.10.2015 um 23:09 schrieb Bruce McGee:
Dan Barclay wrote:

We've used virtual for servers but I haven't used a virtual machine
for development, but maybe I should give that a try. My next install
circus may do that.

Highly recommended.

I've been doing it this way for almost ten years.

I use VMWare Workstation, but there are other, free options such as
VirtualBox.

If you can spare a complete PC VMWare's ESix is free in it's basic
variant as well, which is enough for development (no need for live
migration etc.)

Greetings

Markus
Mike Margerum

Posts: 590
Registered: 12/1/99
Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition [Edit]
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  Posted: Oct 28, 2015 8:19 AM   in response to: Dan Barclay in response to: Dan Barclay
We've used virtual for servers but I haven't used a virtual machine for
development, but maybe I should give that a try. My next install
circus may do that.

Dan
Been running windows exclusively on parallels now and this is the best
windows experience i've ever had. I highly recommend it.

Just bought a loaded iMac with 32gb of ram and an SSD that does 1800 mbs
read speeds. Everything is instant. I doubt you could buy a similar
windows machine with these specs for less and with a 5k retina display.
Joseph Mitzen

Posts: 392
Registered: 6/9/02
Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 26, 2015 11:21 PM   in response to: Nick Hodges in response to: Nick Hodges
Nick Hodges wrote:

Even if all those developers spoke only Russian and Chinese?

Chinese and Russian developers have blogs and social media services (such as Baidu) too. I can't imagine the Great Firewall screening Delphi discussions from Google indexing.

Oh, and try to map your mind around this one... check the release date....

http://www.amazon.com/Programming-Delphi-Russian-E-Markov/dp/594157116X/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1445926768&sr=1-1&keywords=delphi&refinements=p_n_feature_nine_browse-bin%3A3291441011
Joseph Mitzen

Posts: 392
Registered: 6/9/02
Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 26, 2015 1:27 AM   in response to: Nick Hodges in response to: Nick Hodges
Nick Hodges wrote:
Bob Bobson wrote:


Delphi certainly does have a disproportionately high number of
non-paying (i.e. pirate) users amongst the users who do actually
exist, but they still do not come anywhere close to adding up to
millions.

How do you know?

"It's amazing how much we know if we only ask ourselves the question instead of someone else." - Donald Shimoda in "Illusions" by Richard Bach

Nick, try asking yourself this question first. What would the world look like if there were millions of Delphi users? What would the world look like if there were not? Then try observing the world and ask yourself which of those two possibilities is the most likely based on your observations. This is the heart of the scientific method.
Joseph Mitzen

Posts: 392
Registered: 6/9/02
Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 26, 2015 1:20 AM   in response to: Brian Hamilton ... in response to: Brian Hamilton ...
Brian Hamilton Hamilton wrote:
It is just simply impossible for there to be that many paying Delphi developers in the world right now, period.
I think you are misunderstanding between paying developers and people that use Delphi

No, he isn't. JetBrains' market research before they produced a C/C++ IDE found that there was a little under 2 million C developers in the world. Million(s) of Delphi developers would mean from 1/2 to 1 Delphi developer for every C developer. Do you observe that ratio in the real world? What about C++? About 4 million. Are there 1 Delphi developer for every two C++ developers?

For the one zillionth time, there have been no commercially published Delphi books since 2005. Amazon shows 3 hardcover C books in English published in the last 90 days (22 paperback, but not all commercially published). Does this forum know something that all of the commercial publishers don't?

Stack Overflow's 2015 survey let users list their primary technical tools. Again, I actually sought a fact-based answer to this question and since I work in data analysis anyway I got ahold of the data and crunched it for free. Those who list "Delphi" or "Pascal" in their list were just under 1/2 of 1 percent of those surveyed. C was listed in just under 16.5% of responses. Do Delphi users just not use Stack Overflow? (Actually other data suggests they use it disproportionately more than other popular languages, but that's another analysis).

Another study estimated there were about 18 million developers in the world in 2013. That would put Delphi at about 90K. Something would need to be wildly, wildly wrong for there to be millions of Delphi users and there be no objective sign in the world that they exist. Note that I'm not counting here people who, as one part of their job responsibility, maintain some legacy Delphi app sitting in a corner. Those aren't active users and wouldn't be seen in the Stack Overflow survey as Delphi users. I don't think we should consider them Delphi users either.

Anyone who claims million(s) of users has to explain (away) every single observation (and I've got a lot more of them!) where Delphi doesn't come within orders of magnitude of this number. No one has tried this yet not has anyone ever crunched their own numbers. They seem to be going on faith alone and we just can't afford to do that anymore. This is a time of change and opportunity for Delphi and we have to be serious. We can't get to where we want to be if we don't know where we truly are first. There are a lot of ideas for what should be done for Delphi that make sense if we're ~100K but don't make sense if we're almost as popular as C++.
Brian Hamilton ...

Posts: 556
Registered: 10/14/04
Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 26, 2015 1:49 AM   in response to: Joseph Mitzen in response to: Joseph Mitzen
I am not claiming there are millions of users.
Bruce McGee

Posts: 1,716
Registered: 9/30/99
Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 26, 2015 4:37 AM   in response to: Joseph Mitzen in response to: Joseph Mitzen
Joseph Mitzen wrote:

For the one zillionth time

Made me chuckle...

--
Regards,
Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
Bruce McGee

Posts: 1,716
Registered: 9/30/99
Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 26, 2015 4:41 AM   in response to: Joseph Mitzen in response to: Joseph Mitzen
Joseph Mitzen wrote:

there have been no commercially published
Delphi books since 2005

http://glooscapsoftware.blogspot.ca/2014/10/book-book-book.html

http://blogs.embarcadero.com/davidi/2015/07/06/43895

--
Regards,
Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software

Markus Humm

Posts: 5,113
Registered: 11/9/03
Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 26, 2015 11:46 AM   in response to: Bruce McGee in response to: Bruce McGee
Am 26.10.2015 um 12:41 schrieb Bruce McGee:
Joseph Mitzen wrote:

there have been no commercially published
Delphi books since 2005

http://glooscapsoftware.blogspot.ca/2014/10/book-book-book.html

http://blogs.embarcadero.com/davidi/2015/07/06/43895


Hello,

I guess Joseph didn't mean "self published" books in his answer.
(some of them are quite ok, but a lone author is more likely to take the
risk of publishing a book for a niche market than a publishing house)

Greetings

Markus
Nick Hodges

Posts: 2,414
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 26, 2015 11:48 AM   in response to: Markus Humm in response to: Markus Humm
Markus Humm wrote:

I guess Joseph didn't mean "self published" books in his answer.

Which is ridiculous.

--
Nick
Delphi Programming is Fun
Bruce McGee

Posts: 1,716
Registered: 9/30/99
Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 26, 2015 12:25 PM   in response to: Markus Humm in response to: Markus Humm
Markus Humm wrote:

Am 26.10.2015 um 12:41 schrieb Bruce McGee:
Joseph Mitzen wrote:

there have been no commercially published
Delphi books since 2005

http://glooscapsoftware.blogspot.ca/2014/10/book-book-book.html

http://blogs.embarcadero.com/davidi/2015/07/06/43895


Hello,

I guess Joseph didn't mean "self published" books in his answer.

If that's the case, then his answer is meant to be misleading.

(some of them are quite ok, but a lone author is more likely to take
the risk of publishing a book for a niche market than a publishing
house)

There have been several Delphi books published recently, and I hope we
see more.

--
Regards,
Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
Markus Humm

Posts: 5,113
Registered: 11/9/03
Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 26, 2015 2:03 PM   in response to: Bruce McGee in response to: Bruce McGee
Am 26.10.2015 um 20:25 schrieb Bruce McGee:
Markus Humm wrote:

Am 26.10.2015 um 12:41 schrieb Bruce McGee:
Joseph Mitzen wrote:

there have been no commercially published
Delphi books since 2005

http://glooscapsoftware.blogspot.ca/2014/10/book-book-book.html

http://blogs.embarcadero.com/davidi/2015/07/06/43895


Hello,

I guess Joseph didn't mean "self published" books in his answer.

If that's the case, then his answer is meant to be misleading.

(some of them are quite ok, but a lone author is more likely to take
the risk of publishing a book for a niche market than a publishing
house)

There have been several Delphi books published recently, and I hope we
see more.

I especially hope to see more books not covering the language itsself
but specific libraries like FMX or FireDAC.

Greetings

Markus
Bruce McGee

Posts: 1,716
Registered: 9/30/99
Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 26, 2015 3:19 PM   in response to: Markus Humm in response to: Markus Humm
Markus Humm wrote:

Am 26.10.2015 um 20:25 schrieb Bruce McGee:
Markus Humm wrote:

Am 26.10.2015 um 12:41 schrieb Bruce McGee:
Joseph Mitzen wrote:

there have been no commercially published
Delphi books since 2005

http://glooscapsoftware.blogspot.ca/2014/10/book-book-book.html

http://blogs.embarcadero.com/davidi/2015/07/06/43895


Hello,

I guess Joseph didn't mean "self published" books in his answer.

If that's the case, then his answer is meant to be misleading.

(some of them are quite ok, but a lone author is more likely to
take >> the risk of publishing a book for a niche market than a
publishing >> house)

There have been several Delphi books published recently, and I hope
we see more.

I especially hope to see more books not covering the language itsself
but specific libraries like FMX or FireDAC.

Me too.

In the mean time, check the links. There are a couple that fit the
bill, along with some library specific webinars.

--
Regards,
Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
Van Swofford

Posts: 397
Registered: 6/28/03
Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 26, 2015 7:50 PM   in response to: Markus Humm in response to: Markus Humm
Markus Humm wrote:

I especially hope to see more books not covering the language itsself
but specific libraries like FMX or FireDAC.

+1

--
Cheers,
Van

"Good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad
judgment." - Will Rogers
Joseph Mitzen

Posts: 392
Registered: 6/9/02
Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 26, 2015 11:04 PM   in response to: Bruce McGee in response to: Bruce McGee
Bruce McGee wrote:
Joseph Mitzen wrote:

there have been no commercially published
Delphi books since 2005

http://glooscapsoftware.blogspot.ca/2014/10/book-book-book.html


These are self-published books. When I say "commercially published books" I mean published by an actual commercial publishing company like Apress or O'Reilly Media. Companies that made their revenue from book sales so are finely in tune with what can generate sales for them and what can't.

The only book that vaguely counts as commercially published in theory is Teti's, but that's Packt Publishing, which could be an entire essay itself. They're a company whose idea is to publish anything and hope something sticks. I can give you accounts of people who answered three questions on Stack Overflow and got an e-mail inviting them to write a book for Packt. I believe in one year it published over 130 titles. It tells prospective authors that it will get their book Slashdot-ted, but that same year with 130+ books it only got 2 on Slashdot. It also does no advertising despite promises to do so and people who fall victim to Packt say that they sell more copies on their personal blog sites than via online book stores - and even then, there was a "glitch" in which they received no commission for any of these sales until one author took the facts public. They're HQed in Britain but all the employees are in India. They've taken manuscripts from English speakers, given them to Indian editors, and filled them with grammatical errors. :-( To give you an idea how bad Packt books can be, I looked at one that was on the subject of financial programming. The author related that they had no programming education but had picked it up themselves. In the intro chapter they cover programming and relate on of their development methods: readers are suggested to write code, comment it all out, then uncomment line by line and run each time and see if any error messages are generated. I kid you not. Another book of theirs on computational finance was based on a library written by the authors - as many Amazon reviewers relate, it doesn't compile. There is no errata page on Packt and the authors don't respond to e-mails, making the book worthless. Nick's cat (who actually writes a blog!!!!) could get a book published with Packt.

Ok, I did write an essay on Packt afterall. :-)


Again, no commercially published books on this list. My point stands. Discounting Packt, which is a scam/glorified self-publisher, the last commercially published Delphi book was Marco Cantu's Mastering Delphi 2005.

And again, another point stands - rather than accepting data, we endlessly fight data that doesn't tell us what we want to hear.
Bruce McGee

Posts: 1,716
Registered: 9/30/99
Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 27, 2015 3:31 AM   in response to: Joseph Mitzen in response to: Joseph Mitzen
Joseph Mitzen wrote:

Bruce McGee wrote:
Joseph Mitzen wrote:

there have been no commercially published
Delphi books since 2005

http://glooscapsoftware.blogspot.ca/2014/10/book-book-book.html


These are self-published books.

Your point?

--
Regards,
Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
Dominique Willems

Posts: 591
Registered: 10/26/99
Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 27, 2015 4:16 AM   in response to: Bruce McGee in response to: Bruce McGee
Bruce McGee wrote:
These are self-published books.

Your point?

Oh come on, I think he made his point quite clearly, over and over and
over.

Publishers do market research before publishing anything. They want to
make a profit.

Self-publishers don't have the means to do any or very little research
into their potential market. Hence publishing companies' decision not
to target a certain audience, because it is too tiny, is more reliable
than a self-publisher's opinion on the matter.

He's using commercial publishers' decision not to publish as an
indicator. It's valid.
Bruce McGee

Posts: 1,716
Registered: 9/30/99
Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 27, 2015 4:18 AM   in response to: Dominique Willems in response to: Dominique Willems
Dominique Willems wrote:

It's valid.

Disagree

--
Regards,
Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
Dominique Willems

Posts: 591
Registered: 10/26/99
Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 27, 2015 4:19 AM   in response to: Bruce McGee in response to: Bruce McGee
Bruce McGee wrote:
It's valid.

Disagree

Aw okay. :)
Markus Humm

Posts: 5,113
Registered: 11/9/03
Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 27, 2015 12:22 PM   in response to: Bruce McGee in response to: Bruce McGee
Am 27.10.2015 um 12:18 schrieb Bruce McGee:
Dominique Willems wrote:

It's valid.

Disagree

Oh, only about this üpoint. So the market research part is true.
That's a start. ;-)

Greetings

Markus
Bruce McGee

Posts: 1,716
Registered: 9/30/99
Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 27, 2015 12:33 PM   in response to: Markus Humm in response to: Markus Humm
Markus Humm wrote:

Am 27.10.2015 um 12:18 schrieb Bruce McGee:
Dominique Willems wrote:

It's valid.

Disagree

Oh, only about this üpoint. So the market research part is true.
That's a start. ;-)

Not so much

--
Regards,
Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
Nick Hodges

Posts: 2,414
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 27, 2015 5:16 AM   in response to: Dominique Willems in response to: Dominique Willems
Dominique Willems wrote:

Self-publishers don't have the means to do any or very little research
into their potential market. Hence publishing companies' decision not
to target a certain audience, because it is too tiny, is more reliable
than a self-publisher's opinion on the matter.

I made a shit-ton of money on my first book. Way more than Pacheco and
Teixeira ever made on any of their books, and they probably sold many
more than I did.

Why would I accept offers to commercially publish my work? (Offers
which I received, BTW)

--
Nick
Delphi Programming is Fun
Dominique Willems

Posts: 591
Registered: 10/26/99
Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 27, 2015 7:45 AM   in response to: Nick Hodges in response to: Nick Hodges
Nick Hodges wrote:
I made a shit-ton of money on my first book.

Wasn't your book kind of a tie-in sale with some XE versions? 10,000
times 10 bucks is a lot!

I'm, of course, yanking your chain, and don't get me wrong; I'm quite
happy in this bubble. Delphi ought to stay a well-kept secret what I'm
concerned. A quaint little village of smart developers. Excellent.
Nick Hodges

Posts: 2,414
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 27, 2015 7:57 AM   in response to: Dominique Willems in response to: Dominique Willems
Dominique Willems wrote:

Wasn't your book kind of a tie-in sale with some XE versions? 10,000
times 10 bucks is a lot!

Even apart from the sales tie-in I did very well.

You can ask Marco as well -- I guarantee he's self-publishing because
it is way more profitable.

The book business is changing a lot.


--
Nick
Delphi Programming is Fun

Dominique Willems

Posts: 591
Registered: 10/26/99
Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 27, 2015 8:10 AM   in response to: Nick Hodges in response to: Nick Hodges
Nick Hodges wrote:
You can ask Marco as well -- I guarantee he's self-publishing because
it is way more profitable.

The book business is changing a lot.

No argument there!

It just proves again how stupid all these authors for other programming
languages are. Running to Addison-Wesley, O'Reilly, Prentice Hall, etc.

Go Delphi! :)
Nick Hodges

Posts: 2,414
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 27, 2015 8:25 AM   in response to: Dominique Willems in response to: Dominique Willems
Dominique Willems wrote:

It just proves again how stupid all these authors for other
programming languages are. Running to Addison-Wesley, O'Reilly,
Prentice Hall, etc.

Fewer and fewer are.

--
Nick
Delphi Programming is Fun
Mike Margerum

Posts: 590
Registered: 12/1/99
Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 27, 2015 8:36 AM   in response to: Nick Hodges in response to: Nick Hodges
On 10/27/15 11:25 AM, Nick Hodges wrote:
Dominique Willems wrote:

It just proves again how stupid all these authors for other
programming languages are. Running to Addison-Wesley, O'Reilly,
Prentice Hall, etc.

Fewer and fewer are.
I'm glad it's changing. I'm glad more of the money is going directly to
the Authors. Like you for instance :D Your first book was really good.
Haven't gotten to the second one yet.
Nick Hodges

Posts: 2,414
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 27, 2015 8:38 AM   in response to: Mike Margerum in response to: Mike Margerum
Mike Margerum wrote:

Haven't gotten to the second one yet

Oh, you definitely should. :-)

Thanks for the kind words.

--
Nick
Delphi Programming is Fun
Bruce McGee

Posts: 1,716
Registered: 9/30/99
Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 27, 2015 10:31 AM   in response to: Mike Margerum in response to: Mike Margerum
Mike Margerum wrote:

Haven't gotten to the second one yet.

Hurry up. I read somewhere that a third one is in the works.

--
Regards,
Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
Mike Margerum

Posts: 590
Registered: 12/1/99
Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 28, 2015 8:22 AM   in response to: Bruce McGee in response to: Bruce McGee
On 10/27/15 1:31 PM, Bruce McGee wrote:
Mike Margerum wrote:

Haven't gotten to the second one yet.

Hurry up. I read somewhere that a third one is in the works.

hehe i'll try to get nicks second book this weekend. I'm juggling a lot
of languages unfortunately. go, swift, delphi, objC, c#

Of all of them I have to say Delphi and Go are the easiest to grok when
reading your old code or someone else's code.
Luigi Sandon

Posts: 353
Registered: 10/15/99
Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 28, 2015 4:04 AM   in response to: Nick Hodges in response to: Nick Hodges
I made a shit-ton of money on my first book. Way more than Pacheco and

Thereby you can tell us the order of magnitude of the copies you sold, we don't need the exact number, just the order of magnitude. You may not tell us what you learned at Embarcadero, of course, but about your own business you're free, aren't you?

1,000? 5,000? 10,000? 50,000? 100,000? 500,000? 1,000,000?

Otherwise you're just a sort of "reverse FUD".
Bruce McGee

Posts: 1,716
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Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 28, 2015 4:32 AM   in response to: Luigi Sandon in response to: Luigi Sandon
Luigi Sandon wrote:

Otherwise you're just a sort of "reverse FUD".

Reverse FUD is a bad thing?

I think the word you are looking for is "reassurance".

--
Regards,
Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
Dominique Willems

Posts: 591
Registered: 10/26/99
Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 28, 2015 6:55 AM   in response to: Bruce McGee in response to: Bruce McGee
Bruce McGee wrote:
Otherwise you're just a sort of "reverse FUD".

Reverse FUD is a bad thing?

I think he means propaganda. Yes, that'd be bad, of course.

I think the word you are looking for is "reassurance".

I think he was looking for "deceitful reassurance."
Bruce McGee

Posts: 1,716
Registered: 9/30/99
Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 28, 2015 12:45 PM   in response to: Dominique Willems in response to: Dominique Willems
Dominique Willems wrote:

Bruce McGee wrote:
Otherwise you're just a sort of "reverse FUD".

Reverse FUD is a bad thing?

I think he means propaganda. Yes, that'd be bad, of course.

I think countering FUD is a good thing.

I think the word you are looking for is "reassurance".

I think he was looking for "deceitful reassurance."

If so, then he was being disingenuous.

--
Regards,
Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
Nick Hodges

Posts: 2,414
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 28, 2015 4:50 AM   in response to: Luigi Sandon in response to: Luigi Sandon
Luigi Sandon wrote:

"reverse FUD".

What's "reverse FUD"? ACc? Assurance, confidence, and certainty?

How many books I sold is none of your business. I'll just say "I sold
a lot, and am still selling a lot."

--
Nick
Delphi Programming is Fun
Don Abel

Posts: 49
Registered: 7/22/11
Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 28, 2015 9:02 AM   in response to: Nick Hodges in response to: Nick Hodges
Nick Hodges wrote:

Luigi Sandon wrote:

"reverse FUD".

What's "reverse FUD"? ACc? Assurance, confidence, and certainty?

How many books I sold is none of your business. I'll just say "I sold
a lot, and am still selling a lot."

And keep writing more because they're great.

Nick Hodges

Posts: 2,414
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 28, 2015 10:10 AM   in response to: Don Abel in response to: Don Abel
Don Abel wrote:

And keep writing more because they're great.

Thanks very much.

--
Nick
Delphi Programming is Fun
Brian Hamilton ...

Posts: 556
Registered: 10/14/04
Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 29, 2015 1:20 AM   in response to: Nick Hodges in response to: Nick Hodges
a lot, and am still selling a lot."
you should be able to get to 1.75 million copies (that being the number of Delphi users)
(tongue is in my cheek) :)
Nick Hodges

Posts: 2,414
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 29, 2015 4:46 AM   in response to: Brian Hamilton ... in response to: Brian Hamilton ...
Brian Hamilton Hamilton wrote:

you should be able to get to 1.75 million copies (that being the
number of Delphi users) (tongue is in my cheek) :)

I'm working on it. ;-)

--
Nick
Delphi Programming is Fun
Gilbert Padilla

Posts: 315
Registered: 3/8/04
Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 29, 2015 8:09 AM   in response to: Nick Hodges in response to: Nick Hodges
you should be able to get to 1.75 million copies (that being the
number of Delphi users) (tongue is in my cheek) :)

I'm working on it. ;-)

I just wish I could sell them something even for a dollar a year ;-)

-Teach me how to fish and I'll take care of my self-
~ Me
Nick Hodges

Posts: 2,414
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 27, 2015 5:15 AM   in response to: Joseph Mitzen in response to: Joseph Mitzen
Joseph Mitzen wrote:

And again, another point stands - rather than accepting data, we
endlessly fight data that doesn't tell us what we want to hear.

I wonder if the publishing business has changed over the last ten years.

I had multiple offers to "commercially" publish my book, but refused
them because self-publishing is vastly more profitable.

There's a fact for you to put in your pipe and smoke.

--
Nick
Delphi Programming is Fun
Bruce McGee

Posts: 1,716
Registered: 9/30/99
Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 27, 2015 5:30 AM   in response to: Nick Hodges in response to: Nick Hodges
Nick Hodges wrote:

There's a fact for you to put in your pipe and smoke.

I had a more colourful phrase in mind, but maybe best not to post it...

--
Regards,
Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
Markus Humm

Posts: 5,113
Registered: 11/9/03
Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 27, 2015 12:21 PM   in response to: Joseph Mitzen in response to: Joseph Mitzen
Am 27.10.2015 um 07:04 schrieb Joseph Mitzen:
Bruce McGee wrote:
Joseph Mitzen wrote:

there have been no commercially published
Delphi books since 2005

http://glooscapsoftware.blogspot.ca/2014/10/book-book-book.html


These are self-published books. When I say "commercially published books" I mean published by an actual commercial publishing company like Apress or O'Reilly Media. Companies that made their revenue from book sales so are finely in tune with what can generate sales for them and what can't.

The only book that vaguely counts as commercially published in theory is Teti's, but that's Packt Publishing, which could be an entire essay itself. They're a company whose idea is to publish anything and hope something sticks. I can give you accounts of people who answered three questions on Stack Overflow and got an e-mail inviting them to write a book for Packt. I believe in one year it published over 130 titles. It tells prospective authors that it will get their book Slashdot-ted, but that same yea
r with 130+ books it only got 2 on Slashdot. It also does no advertising despite promises to do so and people who fall victim to Packt say that they sell more copies on their personal blog sites than via online book stores - and even then, there was a "glitch" in which they received no commission for any of these sales until one author took the facts public. They're HQed in Britain but all the employees are in India. They've taken manuscripts from English speakers, given them to Indian editors, and filled
them with grammatical errors. :-( To give you an idea how bad Packt books can be, I looked at one that was on the subject of financial programming. The author related that they had no programming education but had picked it up themselves. In the intro chapter they cover programming and relate on of their development methods: readers are suggested to write code, comment it all out, then uncomment line by line and run each time and see if any error messages are generated. I kid you not. Another book of t
heirs on computational finance was based on a library written by the authors - as many Amazon reviewers relate, it doesn't compile. There is no errata page on Packt and the authors don't respond to e-mails, making the book worthless. Nick's cat (who actually writes a blog!!!!) could get a book published with Packt.

Ok, I did write an essay on Packt afterall. :-)


Again, no commercially published books on this list. My point stands. Discounting Packt, which is a scam/glorified self-publisher, the last commercially published Delphi book was Marco Cantu's Mastering Delphi 2005.

That might be correct for the English speaking countries. In Germany
there was one about Delüphi .NET from two authors who had already
written a number of Delphi books.

One of their others about Delphi 7 got republished in 2009 or so thrown
together with their Delphi receipes book. While not too bad as a whole
their multimediaTimer implementation they used as demo for creating non
visual components still had the same bugs (afair the enable property was
not really "connected" ;-) ) and their website for erratas etc. didn't
exist, but was mentioned in the book. No reply ever via e-mail about
their component bugs.

Greetings

Markus

Nick Hodges

Posts: 2,414
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 26, 2015 5:44 AM   in response to: Joseph Mitzen in response to: Joseph Mitzen
Joseph Mitzen wrote:

Anyone who claims million(s) of users

I'm not making such a claim.

Nor is anyone else here, I believe.

So who, exactly, are you ranting against?

--
Nick
Delphi Programming is Fun
Joseph Mitzen

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Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 26, 2015 11:52 PM   in response to: Nick Hodges in response to: Nick Hodges
Nick Hodges wrote:
Joseph Mitzen wrote:

Anyone who claims million(s) of users

I'm not making such a claim.

Nor is anyone else here, I believe.

So who, exactly, are you ranting against?

Everyone Nick, EVERYONE is making that claim. You yourself once wrote on your blog that there may be more Delphi developers than C/C++ developers, "we just can't know". One David Heffernan replied that one would have to be delusional to believe that and explained how we can know. On TheRegister.co.uk's article about the acquisition a Delphi user claimed there are as many Delphi developers as Python. This was probably inspired by Marco Cantu's statement on his blog that he believes that Delphi had far more impact on the business world than Python ever did. Michael Swindell in 2007 claimed 1.75 million users. And I could cite post, after post, after post, after post from this very forum in which the million number is used. Now everyone's pretending they didn't believe there were one million plus Delphi developers? This is one of the biggest Myths Of Delphi.

Here, it's being debated on Stack Overflow, where Swindell decided a year later there were now more than two million Delphi developers.... Rezlog used the figure too.

http://stackoverflow.com/questions/2418435/how-many-delphi-users-over-the-world

Cantu blindly repeated it....

http://blog.marcocantu.com/blog/1.75_millions_delphi.html

So yes, lots of CodeGear/EMBT (or eventual EMBT) employees threw around numbers in the 1.75 to 2 million range. Don't try to gaslight me.

And since people were pulling numbers out of their you-know-what, why not go bigger? From an August 31 Embarcadero press release....

"RAD Studio 10 Seattle brings Embarcadero’s three million strong community of C++ and Delphi developers"
https://www.embarcadero.com/press-releases/million-developers

Now it's three million!

So stop. Just stop. Stop pretending no one ever said this. Just acknowledge the fact that the community bandied about numbers that were trivially possible to demonstrate were absurd. Now that we have a (somewhat) clearer picture, we can get to the important stuff of discussing where Delphi needs to go from here. That's a far different answer for a something with 100K users vs. 3M users.

And if no one believed there were even one million developers, why did these no ones not tear apart the 3M figure in the Seattle press release. As far as I know, I'm the only one who did so, on Reddit. I'm the only one who analyzes any data, period, but that's another sad story.
Luigi Sandon

Posts: 353
Registered: 10/15/99
Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 27, 2015 3:52 AM   in response to: Joseph Mitzen in response to: Joseph Mitzen
IMHO the price Embarcadero was sold, gave us some hints.

Let's take three million users, and an average $1000 new license/upgrade/subscription price every year, which is very conservative given actual prices. It's a $3 billions revenue each year from Delphi alone - excluding others Embarcadero products. Even $500 per year would be a billion and a half.

Would you sell that company for less than $500 millions? I don't think so.

In 2008, before the sale last time data are available, CodeGear revenue were $12 millions (http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/853273/000129993308002384/exhibit2.htm) Sure, sales could have gone a little up from $12 millions, but whoever had turned them into the billions range in a few years would have been probably "executive of the year" a few times.

Also, would you need to devise plan to stop DB development with the Pro edition unless you also buy an additional license, or have to force subscriptions or updates? Those are symptoms that revenue nor new customers were enough, and actual customers needed to be "milked" more.

It's far easier to make up numbers when you're a private company and you have not to publish your balance sheets...
Brandon Staggs

Posts: 683
Registered: 3/3/01
Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 27, 2015 5:31 AM   in response to: Luigi Sandon in response to: Luigi Sandon
"Luigi Sandon" wrote on Tue, 27 Oct 2015 03:52:34 -0700:

Let's take three million users, and an average $1000 new license/upgrade/subscription price every year,

Why would you do that? I've been paying a subscription for a decade
or so and never spent that much in a year. I know Delphi shops that
buy the professional sku for their developers without subscriptions.
$1000 is not going to be a reasonable average, and neither is $500.

Besides, the claims are about users, not active annual subscriptions.
Read SO; there are definitely a LOT of users stuck on old versions of
Delphi. They are still licensed users.

There are only a few people I have ever talked to who were in a
position to actually know the answers to these questions, and you
and Joseph aren't among them, and your wild theories are no more valid
than anyone else's.

--
Brandon Staggs
StudyLamp Software LLC
http://www.studylamp.com
Nick Hodges

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Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 27, 2015 5:41 AM   in response to: Brandon Staggs in response to: Brandon Staggs
Brandon Staggs wrote:

There are only a few people I have ever talked to who were in a
position to actually know the answers to these questions, and you
and Joseph aren't among them, and your wild theories are no more valid
than anyone else's.

The interesting thing is I actually do know, or did. I can make a good
guess based on reasonable growth numbers. But discretio prevents me
from saying anything.

I'll just say that Mitzen is full of it.

--
Nick
Delphi Programming is Fun
Joseph Mitzen

Posts: 392
Registered: 6/9/02
Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 27, 2015 7:32 PM   in response to: Nick Hodges in response to: Nick Hodges
Nick Hodges wrote:

I'll just say that Mitzen is full of it.

You also said that there were lots of Delphi.NET developers too. I don't think you've got a good track record on judging the reliability of data you're presented. I work as a data analyst. I think I'll stick with my own projections, which are aligned with Idera's press release, and every objectively measurable source of outside data. They also align with common sense, which is often (but not always!) a good sign.

Nick Hodges

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Registered: 9/22/99
Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 28, 2015 4:51 AM   in response to: Joseph Mitzen in response to: Joseph Mitzen
Joseph Mitzen wrote:

You also said that there were lots of Delphi.NET developers too.

I did? When? Where?

You like to say I said that I'm pretty sure I didn't say. Then you
can't ever back them up with the data you claim to love so much.

--
Nick
Delphi Programming is Fun
Luigi Sandon

Posts: 353
Registered: 10/15/99
Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 27, 2015 7:30 AM   in response to: Brandon Staggs in response to: Brandon Staggs
Why would you do that? I've been paying a subscription for a decade

It was an educated guess among the prices of licenses/upgrades/subscriptions across all edition, not just the Pro - the prices starting from the Enterprise are well above the $1000 tag. Or do you mean nobody buys the higher SKUs?

When I was updating Delphi constantly my yearly expense was well above $1000 per developer. It was all Enterprise SKUs.

$1000 is not going to be a reasonable average, and neither is $500.

$300, less than your Pro subscription? It's still one billion/year. $200? It's still 600 millions, fifty times the revenue of CodeGear, and well above the whole Embarcadero value. What business grows 5000% without anybody noticing? Or maybe Delphi brings a meagre $4/year per customer, or little more, giving how much prices increased since 2008? Let's apply a 300% increase in revenues, it's $12/year/customer. A bit hard to believe, isn't it?

Delphi. They are still licensed users

Sure, especially if you count each and every licenses, maybe from the same user upgrading. If they bought Delphi 7 thirteen years ago, and quit there, or anybody who dowloaded a trial... are they actual users? Think otherwise how many users Visual Basic still has, and even DOS! You can also count whoever started a copy of Delphi at school, and never used it afterwards... is that statistic useful from a business perspective? Not at all.

There are only a few people I have ever talked to who were in a
position to actually know the answers to these questions, and you

Sure. That's why I pointed out the latest SEC filing available. It was $12 million then.... of course, because public data are not available, I can't know the "exact" answer, I can only infere an upper limit them from available data. Sure, I can't exactly calculate how many active paying users there are, but I can tell for sure they are far less than 3 millions.

These are not "wild theories", it's simple math, and knowing business, a company value is strictly tied to its actual revenue and future ones.

And why devise new plans to force actual customers to spend more in higher SKUs, forced upgrades, add-ons packs and subscription unless your cash flow is not adequate, and probably diminishing? Trying to extract more money from current customers is something healthy business rarely do, because usually it's not appreciated very much. It's something business in dire condition do, especially when their customers are enough locked-in they have little choice but to swallow the bitter pill.

Hope Idera will change business model.
Joseph Mitzen

Posts: 392
Registered: 6/9/02
Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 27, 2015 7:57 PM   in response to: Luigi Sandon in response to: Luigi Sandon
Luigi Sandon wrote:
Or do you mean nobody buys the higher SKUs?

When I was updating Delphi constantly my yearly expense was well above $1000 per developer. It was all Enterprise SKUs.

Embarcadero Insider has said in the past that most developers do, in fact, buy the Pro SKU but I can't remember the exact distribution he cited and it might be different now thanks to mobile.

$300, less than your Pro subscription? It's still one billion/year. $200? It's still 600 millions, fifty times the revenue of CodeGear, and well above the whole Embarcadero value. What business grows 5000% without anybody noticing? Or maybe Delphi brings >a meagre $4/year per customer, or little more, giving how much prices increased since 2008? Let's apply a 300% increase in revenues, it's $12/year/customer. A bit hard to believe, isn't it?

Stop with these "wild theories!" ;-) The law of multiplication is obviously trolling Delphi. As Stephen Colbert's right-wing character once complained, "Reality has a decidedly left-wing bias!"

Delphi. They are still licensed users

Sure, especially if you count each and every licenses, maybe from the same user upgrading. If they bought Delphi 7 thirteen years ago, and quit there, or anybody who dowloaded a trial... are they actual users?

This is like the Catholic Church, which claims over a billion members by counting every person ever baptized, even if they haven't been to mass in 15 years or left and joined another religion (under the belief they may yet come back).

Think otherwise how many users Visual Basic still has, and even DOS! You can also count whoever started a copy of Delphi at school, and never used it afterwards... is that statistic useful from a business perspective? Not at all.

This is a crucial point. If a developer is just patching a legacy application from time to time, they're not giving money to EMBT or contributing open source Delphi code (for modern versions) or buying (modern) Delphi components. As such, they're functionally equivalent to non-existent users; they have no impact on the Delphi community at all. They're the neutrinos of Delphi development. :-)

Sure. That's why I pointed out the latest SEC filing available. It was $12 million then....

This was a fantastic find! Expect it to be ignored as a result. :-( Interestingly it shows that Borland was right - Delphi was their least revenue-generating product by that time. It also shows that CodeGear's $30 million dollar sale price wasn't a bargain.

of course, because public data are not available, I can't know the "exact" answer, I can only infere an upper limit them from available data. Sure, I can't exactly calculate how many active paying users there are, but I can tell for sure they are far less than 3
millions.

They're using a "God Of the Gaps" strategy on you. If you can't prove beyond any doubt how something works, "God does it!" which of course doesn't logically follow.

These are not "wild theories", it's simple math

Math is a fan of Haskell and is thus trolling Delphi. ;-)

Hope Idera will change business model.

They seem like a good company. I just hope the person they sent to EMBT to figure things out has a good head on their shoulders and doesn't get bamboozled by the gang over there.
Brandon Staggs

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Registered: 3/3/01
Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 28, 2015 6:04 AM   in response to: Luigi Sandon in response to: Luigi Sandon
"Luigi Sandon" wrote on Tue, 27 Oct 2015 07:30:48 -0700:

Or do you mean nobody buys the higher SKUs?

No, I mean your average is unreasonable.

Frankly, this is a stupid thing to debate. You and Joseph are setting
up estimates that confirm your bias and then arguing as if those
estimates are proof of your other claims about Delphi and the company
that owns it. The whole thing is absurd.

--
Brandon Staggs
StudyLamp Software LLC
http://www.studylamp.com
Joseph Mitzen

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Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 27, 2015 7:27 PM   in response to: Brandon Staggs in response to: Brandon Staggs
Brandon Staggs wrote:
"Luigi Sandon" wrote on Tue, 27 Oct 2015 03:52:34 -0700:

Besides, the claims are about users, not active annual subscriptions.
Read SO; there are definitely a LOT of users stuck on old versions of
Delphi. They are still licensed users.

They're generally not active developers; they're people maintaining old legacy code and will disappear when their code is retired.

There are only a few people I have ever talked to who were in a
position to actually know the answers to these questions, and you
and Joseph aren't among them, and your wild theories are no more valid
than anyone else's.

No, that's called the "fallacy of false equivalence". First of all, we don't have "wild theories"; we have "common knowledge". Go into any general programming forum - say "programming" on Google+ or /r/programming on Reddit - and tell them that there are millions of Delphi developers. You'll start seeing jokes like this one:

https://thequickword.wordpress.com/2014/02/23/delphi-programming-job-opportunity-could-be-a-hoax/

Our analysis - not "theories" - is far, far more valid than anyone else's. We're the only people who have, well, cited actual facts and done actual research. We're the only ones then that have any credibility on this issue. Heck, I've personally queried GitHub data via Google's BigQuery Engine, queried Stack Overflow's database system to examine every single tag for every single question from the first available day through 2013, analyzed the Stack Overflow 2015 survey, hand-compiled Torry.net file totals via archive.org, etc. all to get some idea of where Delphi stands. (1) What has ANYONE else here done other than personally insult people and call them trolls or claim they have "wild theories"?

If you think Delphi is popular, you need to present actual facts, facts that have charts and numbers behind them. No one has presented anything. Barring that, you need to refute all of the evidence presented; no one EVER does that either. They just dismiss anything they don't want to believe. It's like watching biologist Richard Dawkins debate a young earth creationist. It's facts vs. faith.

No quantifiable measurement in objective, external reality supports the idea of a significant number of Delphi developers. Until such exists, claiming otherwise meets Carl Sagan's definition of an "extraordinary claim" and requires extraordinary evidence - in this case, evidence that can explain how these Delphi developers remain invisible to all known forms of detection, the Dark Matter of development.

Our hypothesis conforms to all known observations; the "there are lots of Delphi users - for some definition of users" hypothesis can't even pass a simple multiplication test. Hence it is a fallacy to equate the two as if they were equally probable; that are demonstrably not.

(1) No one will ask about any of this research they haven't seen either, because they have the revealed truth already.


--
Brandon Staggs
StudyLamp Software LLC
http://www.studylamp.com
Henrick Hellström

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Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 28, 2015 2:23 AM   in response to: Joseph Mitzen in response to: Joseph Mitzen
Joseph Mitzen wrote:

Besides, the claims are about users, not active annual
subscriptions. Read SO; there are definitely a LOT of users stuck
on old versions of Delphi. They are still licensed users.

They're generally not active developers; they're people maintaining
old legacy code and will disappear when their code is retired.

As a third party component developer, I regularly encounter users who
are still doing active development, despite using older version of
Delphi.

Even old projects might be updated with new features. If the company
started using, say Delphi 7, for version 1.0 of their software, there
might be a lot of reasons they are still using Delphi 7 for later
releases of the same software.

Some of those users might have licenses for later releases of Delphi
(and others don't), but still do all development in an older release of
Delphi, e.g. because their code for some reason doesn't migrate well.
Luigi Sandon

Posts: 353
Registered: 10/15/99
Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 28, 2015 3:55 AM   in response to: Henrick Hellström in response to: Henrick Hellström
As a third party component developer, I regularly encounter users who
are still doing active development, despite using older version of
Delphi.

The issue, from a business perspective, is how many customer purchase your products (new licenses, upgrades, subscription, whatever), each year. Those who don't, don't bring revenues, and don't sustain your business. From a component developer perspective, users of old releases are good as long as they still upgrade your components, even if they don't upgrade Delphi itself. From BorInCodEmbera perspective, users of old release are not that good if they don't bring in revenues.

I know, for example, many people still using Office 2003 (because of the ribbon issue...) - guess MS is not that happy at all them didn't upgrade to recent releases, especially the lucrative subscription one. And why a lot of companies are moving to subscription models? To counters user not upgrading, or upgrading slowly, and ensure a constant cash flow. Otherwise, just counting users of old releases doesn't tell much about the health of your business. Nokia could still count how many (bi?)millions Nokia devices are abandoned in drawers around the world, but it didn't help it to stand against Apple and Android.

Also, I don't know how to read the recent components acquisition by Embarcadero - was it a "strategic" move to reinforce components availability, or was it developers willingly to offload no longer remunerative products? IMHO, frankly, Delphi needs little more UI widgests libraries, it has fairly bigger needs in other areas, for example network communication, RPC protocols, encryption, and so on. It's a while I don't check Indy, but instead of adding another separate third party library, investing in such a basic need would have been a far better option - a little has been done lately, at least now it supports Windows native HTTP APIs - long after they've been introduced.
Henrick Hellström

Posts: 144
Registered: 12/18/00
Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 28, 2015 4:10 AM   in response to: Luigi Sandon in response to: Luigi Sandon
Luigi Sandon wrote:

The issue, from a business perspective, is how many customer purchase
your products (new licenses, upgrades, subscription, whatever), each
year. Those who don't, don't bring revenues, and don't sustain your
business. From a component developer perspective, users of old
releases are good as long as they still upgrade your components, even
if they don't upgrade Delphi itself. From BorInCodEmbera perspective,
users of old release are not that good if they don't bring in
revenues.

All true, but still, having customers who rarely upgrade is much better
than having customers who never upgrade.
Brandon Staggs

Posts: 683
Registered: 3/3/01
Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 28, 2015 6:11 AM   in response to: Joseph Mitzen in response to: Joseph Mitzen
"Joseph Mitzen" wrote on Tue, 27 Oct 2015 19:27:09 -0700:

If you think Delphi is popular

It's not (although you are not defining what "popular" is). Didn't
say it is, don't need it to be. I am also not making a claim as to
how many people use it. You are, and you are JUST GUESSING.

Why aren't you using the TOIBE index as proof of how Delphi is getting
less and less popular? Could it be because it no longer backs up your
claim? That should tell you all you need to know about the "evidence"
you are presenting to back up your theories.

I am still wondering why you are even here. I am no Delphi or
Embarcadero cheerleader. Read my criticisms here. But you seem to be
nothing more than an AI experiment set on repeating anti-Delphi drivel
with some kind of loop with no exit condition. What are you written
in? Probably Haskell or some other barely-used script.

--
Brandon Staggs
StudyLamp Software LLC
http://www.studylamp.com
Nick Hodges

Posts: 2,414
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Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 27, 2015 5:03 AM   in response to: Joseph Mitzen in response to: Joseph Mitzen
Joseph Mitzen wrote:

Everyone Nick, EVERYONE is making that claim.

Point to one person outside of EMBT/Idera who says "I believe there are
millions of Delphi developers".

You yourself once wrote on your blog that there may be more Delphi
developers than C/C++ developers, "we just can't know".

I don't believe I did. Link please.


--
Nick
Delphi Programming is Fun

Joseph Mitzen

Posts: 392
Registered: 6/9/02
Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 27, 2015 10:13 PM   in response to: Nick Hodges in response to: Nick Hodges
Nick Hodges wrote:
Joseph Mitzen wrote:

Everyone Nick, EVERYONE is making that claim.

Point to one person outside of EMBT/Idera who says "I believe there are
millions of Delphi developers".

You yourself once wrote on your blog that there may be more Delphi
developers than C/C++ developers, "we just can't know".

I don't believe I did. Link please.

Ahh, the "deny everything" defense yet again.

Before I get to point #1: are you positing that no one believes what EMBT claims? When did THAT happen? And why don't I get credit? ;-)

And one other thing: isn't this moving the goalposts after the original claim was that no one was saying there were millions of users?

And one more quibble: Marco was outside EMBT when he repeated the claim.

But anyway, if I only need one:

Vintagedave on The Register's article about Idera purchasing EMBT:
http://forums.theregister.co.uk/forum/containing/2658657

"Delphi is much more widely used that many people think - I have heard reasonable estimates, which I believe, that it's about on par with Python."

Assuming it's the same vintagedave, he also made the claim a few years ago at Ars Technica:
http://arstechnica.com/civis/viewtopic.php?p=28039913&sid=7c7661f9b9d7b9b86a16dc430689a9d8#p28039913

(Now, despite asking for one, I'm sure someone will claim: you only cite one person!)

As for point #2:

Hey, Delphi ended up really well in the #code2014 survey. Sure, it’s self-selected and thus statistically dubious, but it definitely is nice to see Delphi in ninth position with a prominent circle. (If you add Delphi and Pascal together, we’d be in sixth place. Yes,
I can see the comments already…)

If I were part of EMBT’s marketing team, I’d be shouting this one from the mountain tops. I know that technically it’s not statistically significant, but the whole chart “feels” right. The languages at the very top seem like the right ones. And Delphi at the ninth
position seems right too. Why? Because I think there are a lot more Delphi developers out there than people know. Is it more popular than C/C++? Maybe not, but then again, maybe it is. No way to know.

http://www.codingindelphi.com/blog/delphi-and-code2014/

So, interestingly enough, it's good enough for you to endorse numbers because they "feel right". Those of us here can produce actual measurements and data but we "can't prove" that Delphi doesn't have millions of users, so we have "wild theories".

To quote David Heffernan:

In my view, a person would have to be delusional to believe that the Delphi community was of a similar size of the C++ or C communities. There are plenty of online communities that attract developers of these languages, and report the sizes of them. For
instance consider the communities on Stack Overflow, or on Google+. I'm quite sure there are more. The differences in size are orders of magnitude.

The thing about talking with David H is that, despite being "Mr. Stack Overflow", he doesn't feel like he has to be a zealot or "loyal" to the language, so he has no problem conceding the obvious. And once we get PAST the obvious (which never, ever, ever happens here) we can get to the important stuff, e.g. how to fix a problem or change a situation. And that's why being a fanboy hurts rather than helps. David raises the point:

I don't see any reason why Delphi needs a community as big as C or C++ to succeed. So far as I can tell, Delphi has been around a long time and is currently doing rather well. And is managing to do so without a community the size of C or C++.

It's certainly a valid point and we could indeed talk about how large the community needs to be to do what we want to do with it, then if we're not there discuss how we can get there. But none of that will ever happen so long as people can't wrap their heads around the fact that no, there aren't 2 or 3 million Delphi users, and no, you're not as big as Python or C.
Dalija Prasnikar

Posts: 2,325
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Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 28, 2015 2:18 AM   in response to: Joseph Mitzen in response to: Joseph Mitzen
Joseph Mitzen wrote:

To quote David Heffernan:

In my view, a person would have to be delusional to believe that the Delphi community was of a similar size of the C++ or C communities. There are plenty of online communities that attract developers of these languages, and report the sizes of them. For
instance consider the communities on Stack Overflow, or on Google+. I'm quite sure there are more. The differences in size are orders of magnitude.

The thing about talking with David H is that, despite being "Mr. Stack Overflow", he doesn't feel like he has to be a zealot or "loyal" to the language, so he has no problem conceding the obvious. And once we get PAST the obvious (which never, ever, ever happens here) we can get to the important stuff, e.g. how to fix a problem or change a situation. And that's why being a fanboy hurts rather than helps. David raises the point:

I don't see any reason why Delphi needs a community as big as C or C++ to succeed. So far as I can tell, Delphi has been around a long time and is currently doing rather well. And is managing to do so without a community the size of C or C++.

It's certainly a valid point and we could indeed talk about how large the community needs to be to do what we want to do with it, then if we're not there discuss how we can get there. But none of that will ever happen so long as people can't wrap their heads around the fact that no, there aren't 2 or 3 million Delphi users, and no, you're not as big as Python or C.

Well said.

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Dalija Prasnikar
Asbjørn Heid

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Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 28, 2015 2:54 AM   in response to: Joseph Mitzen in response to: Joseph Mitzen
Joseph Mitzen wrote:
As for point #2:

Hey, Delphi ended up really well in the #code2014 survey. Sure, it’s self-selected and thus statistically dubious, but it definitely is nice to see Delphi in ninth position with a prominent circle. (If you add Delphi and Pascal together, we’d be in sixth place. Yes,
I can see the comments already…)

If I were part of EMBT’s marketing team, I’d be shouting this one from the mountain tops. I know that technically it’s not statistically significant, but the whole chart “feels” right. The languages at the very top seem like the right ones. And Delphi at the ninth
position seems right too. Why? Because I think there are a lot more Delphi developers out there than people know. Is it more popular than C/C++? Maybe not, but then again, maybe it is. No way to know.

http://www.codingindelphi.com/blog/delphi-and-code2014/

No way to know if C/C++ is more popular than Delphi? Really Nick? I mean, +really+?

Linux itself and the vast majority of applications for Linux are written in C or C++. Windows itself and the majority of applications for Windows are written in C or C++. Huge, popular frameworks such as Boost, KDE, GTK, Qt are written in C or C++.

Heck Boost alone has been downloaded almost 1.7 million times off Sourceforge in the past +year+[1]. And that ignores all those Linux developers who simply use the version of Boost from their distro.

Or say, look at the cppcon. Which Delphi conference comes closed to such a program[2] and with such an attendance (700-800)[3]? And that's just the C++ community.

That said, I agree with Joseph and David, Delphi can still be successful without being the most used tool.

[1]: http://sourceforge.net/projects/boost/files/stats/timeline?dates=2014-10-22+to+2015-10-28
[2]: http://cppcon.org/2015program/
[3]: http://cppcon.org/sponsorship/

Cheers
- Asbjørn
Nick Hodges

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Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 28, 2015 5:00 AM   in response to: Asbjørn Heid in response to: Asbjørn Heid
Asbjørn Heid wrote:

No way to know if C/C++ is more popular than Delphi? Really Nick? I
mean, +really+?

Yup, really.

Windows itself and the majority of applications for Windows are
written in C or C++.

Really?

That said, I agree with Joseph and David, Delphi can still be
successful without being the most used tool.

And you think I disagree with this point?

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Nick
Delphi Programming is Fun
Asbjørn Heid

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Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 28, 2015 5:24 AM   in response to: Nick Hodges in response to: Nick Hodges
Nick Hodges wrote:
Asbjørn Heid wrote:

No way to know if C/C++ is more popular than Delphi? Really Nick? I
mean, +really+?

Yup, really.

Well that explains a few things.

- Asbjørn
Nick Hodges

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Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 28, 2015 5:28 AM   in response to: Asbjørn Heid in response to: Asbjørn Heid
Asbjørn Heid wrote:

Yup, really.

Well that explains a few things.

You can estimage, you can guess, you can analyze, but you can't know.

Now, ask me if I think there are more Delphi developers or C/C++
developers in the world. Go on, ask. ;-)

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Nick
Delphi Programming is Fun
Asbjørn Heid

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Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 28, 2015 5:51 AM   in response to: Nick Hodges in response to: Nick Hodges
Nick Hodges wrote:
Asbjørn Heid wrote:

Yup, really.

Well that explains a few things.

You can estimage, you can guess, you can analyze, but you can't know.

Only in the sense that you can't know that you're not just a brain in a jar. While certainly a valid argument, it is the "trivial solution"[1] and hence completely uninteresting.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triviality_(mathematics)

- Asbjørn
Nick Hodges

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Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 28, 2015 6:09 AM   in response to: Asbjørn Heid in response to: Asbjørn Heid
Asbjørn Heid wrote:


Only in the sense that you can't know that you're not just a brain in
a jar. While certainly a valid argument, it is the "trivial
solution"[1] and hence completely uninteresting.

Okay, fair enough.

You didn't ask me the question, so I'll ask for you:

Asbjørn: Hey Nick, do you think there are more Delphi developers or
C/C++ developers in the world?

Nick: Well I think it is likely that there are at least an order of
magnitude more C/C++ developers than Delphi developers. But you never
can tell for sure. ;-)


--
Nick
Delphi Programming is Fun

Nick Hodges

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Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 28, 2015 4:58 AM   in response to: Joseph Mitzen in response to: Joseph Mitzen
Joseph Mitzen wrote:

I should know better.....

Before I get to point #1: are you positing that no one believes what
EMBT claims? When did THAT happen? And why don't I get credit? ;-)

No, I'm positing what I posited: The I haven't seen anyone in this
newsgroup say that they believe the number.

And you point to one guy not using his real name and accuse the
entire community of believing this.

That's "data analysis"?

And I note you provided no link to what you accused me of saying.

And yup, I talked about a survey that I noted was statistically
dubious and said it was nice to see. I do believe there are more
Delphi developers than people -- including you -- think there are.
That's just my opinion, and I stated it as such.

Your point?

I don't necessarily disagree with anything David Heffernan said.

But again, I ask: Who or what are you railing against? It can't be
me, because I haven't asserted anything other than a reasonable opinion.

Or put another way, what is your freaking problem?

--
Nick
Delphi Programming is Fun

Dalija Prasnikar

Posts: 2,325
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Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 27, 2015 3:02 AM   in response to: Joseph Mitzen in response to: Joseph Mitzen
Joseph Mitzen wrote:
Brian Hamilton Hamilton wrote:
It is just simply impossible for there to be that many paying Delphi developers in the world right now, period.
I think you are misunderstanding between paying developers and people that use Delphi

No, he isn't. JetBrains' market research before they produced a C/C++ IDE found that there was a little under 2 million C developers in the world. Million(s) of Delphi developers would mean from 1/2 to 1 Delphi developer for every C developer. Do you observe that ratio in the real world? What about C++? About 4 million. Are there 1 Delphi developer for every two C++ developers?

For the one zillionth time, there have been no commercially published Delphi books since 2005. Amazon shows 3 hardcover C books in English published in the last 90 days (22 paperback, but not all commercially published). Does this forum know something that all of the commercial publishers don't?

Stack Overflow's 2015 survey let users list their primary technical tools. Again, I actually sought a fact-based answer to this question and since I work in data analysis anyway I got ahold of the data and crunched it for free. Those who list "Delphi" or "Pascal" in their list were just under 1/2 of 1 percent of those surveyed. C was listed in just under 16.5% of responses. Do Delphi users just not use Stack Overflow? (Actually other data suggests they use it disproportionately more than other popular languages, but that's another analysis).

Another study estimated there were about 18 million developers in the world in 2013. That would put Delphi at about 90K. Something would need to be wildly, wildly wrong for there to be millions of Delphi users and there be no objective sign in the world that they exist. Note that I'm not counting here people who, as one part of their job responsibility, maintain some legacy Delphi app sitting in a corner. Those aren't active users and wouldn't be seen in the Stack Overflow survey as Delphi users. I don't think we should consider them Delphi users either.

Anyone who claims million(s) of users has to explain (away) every single observation (and I've got a lot more of them!) where Delphi doesn't come within orders of magnitude of this number. No one has tried this yet not has anyone ever crunched their own numbers. They seem to be going on faith alone and we just can't afford to do that anymore. This is a time of change and opportunity for Delphi and we have to be serious. We can't get to where we want to be if we don't know where we truly are first. There are a lot of ideas for what should be done for Delphi that make sense if we're ~100K but don't make sense if we're almost as popular as C++.

Pretty good analysis.

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Dalija Prasnikar
Dominique Willems

Posts: 591
Registered: 10/26/99
Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 27, 2015 3:26 AM   in response to: Dalija Prasnikar in response to: Dalija Prasnikar
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:
Pretty good analysis.

All of his analyses are pretty good, I say. Look how he wiped the floor
with Nick's goofy "no one ever claimed millions" statement. Excellent.
Bruce McGee

Posts: 1,716
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Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 27, 2015 3:35 AM   in response to: Dominique Willems in response to: Dominique Willems
Dominique Willems wrote:

Dalija Prasnikar wrote:
Pretty good analysis.

All of his analyses are pretty good, I say.

Seriously?

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Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
Dominique Willems

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Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 27, 2015 4:11 AM   in response to: Bruce McGee in response to: Bruce McGee
Bruce McGee wrote:
Seriously?

Absolutely. It's cosy in the bubble, though. :)
Bruce McGee

Posts: 1,716
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Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 27, 2015 4:15 AM   in response to: Dominique Willems in response to: Dominique Willems
Dominique Willems wrote:

Bruce McGee wrote:
Seriously?

Absolutely. It's cosy in the bubble, though. :)

Just low tolerance for deliberate trolls.

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Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
Dalija Prasnikar

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Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 27, 2015 4:47 AM   in response to: Bruce McGee in response to: Bruce McGee
Bruce McGee wrote:
Dominique Willems wrote:

Bruce McGee wrote:
Seriously?

Absolutely. It's cosy in the bubble, though. :)

Just low tolerance for deliberate trolls.

I see that you have no good arguments left, since you
have resorted to name calling.

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Dalija Prasnikar
Bruce McGee

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Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 27, 2015 5:00 AM   in response to: Dalija Prasnikar in response to: Dalija Prasnikar
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:

I see that you have no good arguments left, since you
have resorted to name calling.

Your tolerance (appreciation?) for trolls is higher than mine.

As for my arguments, please feel free to read them in other threads,
where more effort is warranted.

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Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
Nick Hodges

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Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 27, 2015 5:19 AM   in response to: Dominique Willems in response to: Dominique Willems
Dominique Willems wrote:

Look how he wiped the floor
with Nick's goofy "no one ever claimed millions" statement.

I didn't say that. Read what I did say again, this time more carefully

--
Nick
Delphi Programming is Fun
Joseph Mitzen

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Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 26, 2015 1:06 AM   in response to: Phillip Woon in response to: Phillip Woon
Phillip Woon wrote:

So what you're saying is that they're lying?

No one needs to lie. Data analysis is my job. Trust me, many people tend to reach the conclusions they want to believe. And lying assumes they know how to derive an accurate number in the first place.

But on top of inaccuracy and faith, you do get spin. Last year an American broadcast TV network put out a press release touting one of their comedies as "One of the top 10 new comedies of the 2014 Fall broadcast season!"

Sounds good, right? The folks at the TV By the Numbers website dug into it a bit. How many new sitcoms were there? 13. Hmmm. But maybe this show was ranked high, right? 10th. Hmmm. We're 10th out of 13 doesn't sound so good. It gets worse. 2 of those shows had already been canceled and one was expected to simply not come back after winter break (it didn't). That meant this show in question was the lowest-rated new sitcom that hadn't been canceled yet. And yet this was spun into "One of the top 10 new comedies!" Technically true, completely misleading to someone who doesn't know the numbers. And when you hear what you want to hear, you tend not to look at the numbers (say, fans of this show).
Joseph Mitzen

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Re: Letter from IDERA outlining hte aquisition
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  Posted: Oct 26, 2015 12:55 AM   in response to: Bob Bobson in response to: Bob Bobson
Bob Bobson wrote:
Some of the responses to this thread boggle my mind. I find it incomprehensible that anyone (after 2005 or so) ever actually took the claims of "MILLIONS OF DELPHI DEVELOPERS!" seriously. There is just no possible way that there is, or has been for a >?>long time, anywhere CLOSE to that many legally licensed Delphi developers.

There's an American wireless carrier commercial in which two representatives are talking.

Rep from company A: "Wait! You charge more for less minutes?"
Rep from company B: "It makes sense if you don't think about it!"

That sums up this millions of Delphi developers thing. People desperately wanted to believe it, so they never thought about it. It's a phenomenon not unique to Delphi. Those of us who actually crunched data (which would be me.. and um... just me, actually, although Nick once posted a link to RedMonk's language ranking chart if that counts) were dismissed as trolls.

The essence of the scientific method is to take a proposition and ask: "What would the world look like if this were true? What it would it look like if it were false?" and then make observations. No one ever asked "What would a world look like in which there 1.5 - 3 million Delphi developers? Otherwise, they would have realized it wasn't the world in which there are no commercially published Delphi books and people ask "Delphi? That's still a thing?"

I would honestly find it perfectly reasonable if you told me that there were LESS than 10,000 individual worldwide users today. As much as we all may love Delphi here, we also need to be realistic and accept that it is a very, very, very niche product in the
year 2015.

Good luck with that. Personally I'm sticking with ~90K but not close to that many paying customers based on Stack Overflow surveys.

Incidentally, Delphi Haters Blog once reported about leaked Delphi 3rd party mailing lists and that when filtered for unique names, there were only about 8000. People howled in rage. The site's gone, but that tidbit may have been closer to the mark than anyone ever thought. Embarcadero Insider, the person who was denounced and hated here although every piece of information he/she ever leaked, from Marco's appointment to a bad quarter, all turned out to be true, told Delphi Haters that inside Embarcadero they figured it was between 50K and 150K users worldwide. Again, that figure is plausible given this e-mail too.
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