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Thread: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic)


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This question is not answered. Helpful answers available: 2. Correct answers available: 1.


Permlink Replies: 914 - Last Post: Oct 19, 2015 9:20 AM Last Post By: Bruce McGee
Hanspeter Widmer

Posts: 19
Registered: 10/14/00
Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic)  
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  Posted: Sep 13, 2015 8:06 AM
Yes, this XE10 does not made may day. Even the update and the more or less required support to get bugs fixed (not done in my hands).

Most of the developer I know used Delphi (or since Turbo Pascal) for technical tools in the production cycles. This means Intel HW & MS Windows OS and application(s) for this platform.

In the meantime we have 64 bit support and the extended math support is gone (no debugger data view too).

All that MOBILE Mac & Android stuff is really required, if you need to support the mobile platforms!

Form my, in other words, upgrading from D2007 / Rad Studio 2007 is no value even no one will pay me the upgrade (Unicode migration) and last not least the NO GO of the missing Extended math support (also not willing to deal with tweaks).

Please

1) separate Delphi Classic and Mobile
2) get old features back

Cheers

Hp
Bruce McGee

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Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic)  
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  Posted: Sep 13, 2015 8:30 AM   in response to: Hanspeter Widmer in response to: Hanspeter Widmer
Was there extended math support in D2007 that is missing in newer
versions?

Can you point me to an example?

--
Regards,
Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
Arnaud Bouchez

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Registered: 8/2/15
Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic)  
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  Posted: Sep 13, 2015 9:03 AM   in response to: Bruce McGee in response to: Bruce McGee
I guess he meant that there is no "extended" direct support in the Win64 compiler any more.
Only "single" and "double" types are natively supported - but as SSE2, so with much better performance than x87.
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Registered: 9/22/99
Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic)  
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  Posted: Sep 13, 2015 11:53 PM   in response to: Arnaud Bouchez in response to: Arnaud Bouchez
Arnaud Bouchez wrote:

I guess he meant that there is no "extended" direct support in the
Win64 compiler any more.

Oh, OK, he probably meant support for Extended.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

Rudin's Law: In a crisis that forces a choice to be made among
alternative courses of action, people tend to choose the worst
possible course.
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic)  
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  Posted: Sep 13, 2015 11:52 PM   in response to: Bruce McGee in response to: Bruce McGee
Bruce McGee wrote:

Was there extended math support in D2007 that is missing in newer
versions?

Can you point me to an example?

I was thinking exactly the same.
--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Except as its clown and jester, society does not encourage
individuality, and the State abhors it."
-- Bernard Berenson
wenjie zhou

Posts: 424
Registered: 6/28/02
Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic)  
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  Posted: Sep 17, 2015 7:03 PM   in response to: Bruce McGee in response to: Bruce McGee
Bruce McGee wrote:
Was there extended math support in D2007 that is missing in newer
versions?

Can you point me to an example?

--
Regards,
Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software

That is not the main point. The main question is EMB did not want to let them become one thing.
Think about MOBILE features: "ARC" , "0 based string" , "no AnsiString", "remove WITH", "readonly string" and etc. All these things proved that they do not the same thing.

EMB even discuss to introduce ARC in Desktop. In my view, Delphi in Mobile is just a Pascal Script, not a native language. The all features is not care efficiency.

The "cool" MOBILE features just like the self drawn controls in FireMonkey, Be flashy without substance.

The "0 based string" was criticized by many developers. And they had to add an option to go back.

The "Ansi String" routines had replaced by "UnicodeString", and we found that is very inconvenient. And they had to introduce "AnsiStrings.pas". The world need ansistring in no double. And they made a wrong decision.

EMB is too idealistic.
Bruce McGee

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Registered: 9/30/99
Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic)  
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  Posted: Sep 18, 2015 2:57 AM   in response to: wenjie zhou in response to: wenjie zhou
wenjie zhou wrote:

Bruce McGee wrote:
Was there extended math support in D2007 that is missing in newer
versions?

Can you point me to an example?

That is not the main point.

It's a pretty big point.

The main question is EMB did not want to
let them become one thing. Think about MOBILE features: "ARC" , "0
based string" , "no AnsiString", "remove WITH", "readonly string"
and etc. All these things proved that they do not the same thing.

They removed WITH?

EMB even discuss to introduce ARC in Desktop.

I'm not sure I'd mind that.

In my view, Delphi in
Mobile is just a Pascal Script, not a native language. The all
features is not care efficiency.

Lots of efficiency improvements in #10Seattle, especially on mobile.

The "Ansi String" routines had replaced by "UnicodeString", and we
found that is very inconvenient. And they had to introduce
"AnsiStrings.pas". The world need ansistring in no double. And they
made a wrong decision.

So I've heard.

EMB is too idealistic.

Maybe, but I was asking what feature the OP claimed was removed.

It looks like he was referring to the Extended type.

I'll let others judge how big a deal that is.

--
Regards,
Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
Remy Lebeau (Te...


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Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic)  
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  Posted: Sep 18, 2015 9:31 AM   in response to: Bruce McGee in response to: Bruce McGee
Bruce wrote:

The main question is EMB did not want to
let them become one thing. Think about MOBILE features: "ARC" ,
"0 based string" , "no AnsiString", "remove WITH", "readonly string"
and etc. All these things proved that they do not the same thing.

They removed WITH?

No, and strings are not read-only, either. When they were first adding mobile
support, they considered those options, but decided not to go down those
routes in the final product.

EMB even discuss to introduce ARC in Desktop.
I'm not sure I'd mind that.

A lot of people are in favor of desktop ARC, and a lot of people are against
it.

The "Ansi String" routines had replaced by "UnicodeString", and
we found that is very inconvenient. And they had to introduce
"AnsiStrings.pas". The world need ansistring in no double. And
they made a wrong decision.
So I've heard.

The deprecation and moving of the AnsiString routines into the AnsiStrings.pas
unit had nothing to do with mobile, only with the introduction of UnicodeString.

--
Remy Lebeau (TeamB)
Bruce McGee

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Registered: 9/30/99
Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic)  
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  Posted: Sep 19, 2015 5:31 AM   in response to: Remy Lebeau (Te... in response to: Remy Lebeau (Te...
Remy Lebeau (TeamB) wrote:

Bruce wrote:

The main question is EMB did not want to
let them become one thing. Think about MOBILE features: "ARC" ,
"0 based string" , "no AnsiString", "remove WITH", "readonly
string" >> and etc. All these things proved that they do not the
same thing.

They removed WITH?

No

That's a crying shame. :)

So I've heard.

The deprecation and moving of the AnsiString routines into the
AnsiStrings.pas unit had nothing to do with mobile, only with the
introduction of UnicodeString.

I've heard that some people think it's a bad decision.

Most of the rest of wenjie's complaints are more or less made up.

--
Regards,
Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
Dalija Prasnikar

Posts: 2,325
Registered: 11/9/99
Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic)  
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  Posted: Sep 19, 2015 7:01 AM   in response to: Bruce McGee in response to: Bruce McGee
Bruce McGee wrote:
Remy Lebeau (TeamB) wrote:


The deprecation and moving of the AnsiString routines into the
AnsiStrings.pas unit had nothing to do with mobile, only with the
introduction of UnicodeString.

I've heard that some people think it's a bad decision.

One of the problems with AnsiString routines is that instead of just
moving them to another unit, they also left Ansi... named routines inside
SysUtils that were no longer operating on Ansi strings. So any way you turn
you have nice mess.

function from System.AnsiStrings:

function AnsiCompareStr(const S1, S2: AnsiString): Integer;

function from SystemSysUtils:

function AnsiCompareStr(const S1, S2: String): Integer;

IMO that was one of the greatest mistakes they made with Unicode introduction.

Routines in System.Utils should have been renamed. There is no place
for word Ansi in function that has nothing to do with Ansi anymore.

--
Dalija Prasnikar
Remy Lebeau (Te...


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Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic)  
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  Posted: Sep 19, 2015 4:20 PM   in response to: Dalija Prasnikar in response to: Dalija Prasnikar
Dalija wrote:

One of the problems with AnsiString routines is that instead of just
moving them to another unit, they also left Ansi... named routines
inside SysUtils that were no longer operating on Ansi strings.

That was a conscious decision so that they would not break years and years
worth of existing code.

--
Remy Lebeau (TeamB)
Dalija Prasnikar

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Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic)  
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  Posted: Sep 20, 2015 4:05 AM   in response to: Remy Lebeau (Te... in response to: Remy Lebeau (Te...
Remy Lebeau (TeamB) wrote:
Dalija wrote:

One of the problems with AnsiString routines is that instead of just
moving them to another unit, they also left Ansi... named routines
inside SysUtils that were no longer operating on Ansi strings.

That was a conscious decision so that they would not break years and years
worth of existing code.

I know. Still doe not make it less wrong. There are different kinds of breaking code.

Also, when deciding to break or not to break, you have to consider both impact
on existing and future code as well as long term effects.

Unicode broke a lot of things. Some code more than others, but no matter what
kind of code you had, you basically had to go through most of it making small
corrections. Being able to compile did not imply that code would work properly.

When you do have to make extensive changes or should I say when you have to
go through your code making sure that it is not inadvertently broken (regardless
of changes you would need to apply), striping Ansi prefix from function calls would
be piece of cake. And in the long run it would make your code cleaner and easier
to maintain.

There is nothing worse that having function name that implies functionality that is not
there. Ansi prefix has no place in Unicode functions it just adds to confusion, and what
is even worse it becomes more confusing as the time passes.

Imagine developers that came to Delphi after the Unicode and bump into Ansi routines
in most basic System.SysUtils unit. If someone thinks that having more than one string
type is confusing then what about this.

Also in cases where you do need to call Ansi string routines, you now have to make
sure that you don't have System.SysUtils in your uses clauses, or you have to write
function calls using fully qualified names. Otherwise you may end up with wrong function
being called. Now talk about maintenance nightmare.

--
Dalija Prasnikar
Brandon Staggs

Posts: 683
Registered: 3/3/01
Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic)  
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  Posted: Sep 20, 2015 5:50 AM   in response to: Dalija Prasnikar in response to: Dalija Prasnikar
"Dalija Prasnikar" wrote on Sun, 20 Sep 2015 04:05:29 -0700:

There is nothing worse that having function name that implies functionality that is not
there. Ansi prefix has no place in Unicode functions it just adds to confusion, and what
is even worse it becomes more confusing as the time passes.

But, AnsiUpperCase is not a Unicode function even now, is it? I mean,
it functions on a Unicode string but it is not a Unicode uppercase
method.

I could be mistaken, but doesn't it account for locale and call the
operating system's upper case functionality?

A true Unicode-based uppercase would not consider locale. Seems the
function name is not optimal but not entirely wrong.

The problem is real; it is not apparent from the function name what
the actual result should be. But I expect this is the best of bad
options, like leaving FillChar to actually be FillByte.

With the absolute insanity of making the string index base a COMPILER
SWITCH, this pales in comparison. :-)

--
Brandon Staggs
StudyLamp Software LLC
http://www.studylamp.com
Dalija Prasnikar

Posts: 2,325
Registered: 11/9/99
Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic)  
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  Posted: Sep 20, 2015 6:05 AM   in response to: Brandon Staggs in response to: Brandon Staggs
Brandon Staggs wrote:
"Dalija Prasnikar" wrote on Sun, 20 Sep 2015 04:05:29 -0700:

There is nothing worse that having function name that implies functionality that is not
there. Ansi prefix has no place in Unicode functions it just adds to confusion, and what
is even worse it becomes more confusing as the time passes.

But, AnsiUpperCase is not a Unicode function even now, is it? I mean,
it functions on a Unicode string but it is not a Unicode uppercase
method.

AFAIK it is Unicode uppercase method - it calls Windows CharUpperBuff that is Unicode
as far as I can tell. Ansi version is CharUpperBuffA.

https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/ms647475(v=vs.85).aspx

I could be mistaken, but doesn't it account for locale and call the
operating system's upper case functionality?

Since it operates on Unicode string it does not consider locales.


The problem is real; it is not apparent from the function name what
the actual result should be. But I expect this is the best of bad
options, like leaving FillChar to actually be FillByte.

With the absolute insanity of making the string index base a COMPILER
SWITCH, this pales in comparison. :-)

Agreed ;-)

--
Dalija Prasnikar
Brandon Staggs

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Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic)  
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  Posted: Sep 20, 2015 7:51 AM   in response to: Dalija Prasnikar in response to: Dalija Prasnikar
"Dalija Prasnikar" wrote on Sun, 20 Sep 2015 06:05:11 -0700:

Since it operates on Unicode string it does not consider locales.

My mistake, I was probably thinking of this from the rtl:

function UpperCase(const S: string; LocaleOptions: TLocaleOptions):
string;
begin
if LocaleOptions = loUserLocale then
Result := AnsiUpperCase(S)
else
Result := UpperCase(S);
end;

That implies that locale is relevant to AnsiUpperCase but as you say,
that just calls the OS to do the work which does work on Unicode
chars.

And, a little confusing, UpperCase, though it takes a Unicode string,
doesn't really do an uppercase on the string -- it specifically adds
an offset to 'a'..'z' chars.... if you want a real uppercase don't
call UpperCase.

--
Brandon Staggs
StudyLamp Software LLC
http://www.studylamp.com

Dalija Prasnikar

Posts: 2,325
Registered: 11/9/99
Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic)  
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  Posted: Sep 20, 2015 10:25 AM   in response to: Brandon Staggs in response to: Brandon Staggs
Brandon Staggs wrote:
"Dalija Prasnikar" wrote on Sun, 20 Sep 2015 06:05:11 -0700:

Since it operates on Unicode string it does not consider locales.

My mistake, I was probably thinking of this from the rtl:

function UpperCase(const S: string; LocaleOptions: TLocaleOptions):
string;
begin
if LocaleOptions = loUserLocale then
Result := AnsiUpperCase(S)
else
Result := UpperCase(S);
end;

Holly... I wasn't aware that such thing exists... This is insane...


That implies that locale is relevant to AnsiUpperCase but as you say,
that just calls the OS to do the work which does work on Unicode
chars.

And, a little confusing, UpperCase, though it takes a Unicode string,
doesn't really do an uppercase on the string -- it specifically adds
an offset to 'a'..'z' chars.... if you want a real uppercase don't
call UpperCase.

So AnsiUpperCase is Unicode UpperCase because even though it implies
dependency on user locale, it does not have it, and UpperCase is really
ASCII UpperCase...

This is exactly kind of mess I was talking about... there is million of
functions there doing something but nobody knows what exactly, and names
are totally meaningless and misleading.

--
Dalija Prasnikar
Joseph Mitzen

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Registered: 6/9/02
Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic)  
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  Posted: Oct 3, 2015 10:07 PM   in response to: Dalija Prasnikar in response to: Dalija Prasnikar
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:

So AnsiUpperCase is Unicode UpperCase because even though it implies
dependency on user locale, it does not have it, and UpperCase is really
ASCII UpperCase...

The pellet with the poison's in the vessel with the pestle; the chalice from the palace has the brew that is true!
wenjie zhou

Posts: 424
Registered: 6/28/02
Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic)  
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  Posted: Sep 20, 2015 7:27 PM   in response to: Brandon Staggs in response to: Brandon Staggs
Have a look for "TStringList.LoadFromFile" and "TStringList.SaveToFile"

Read a ansi text from a '.txt' and then convert all context to Unicode. And finally save context with ansi.
The convertion is completely inefficient and meaningless.

I want to ask everybody a question. Ansi string will exists for how many years? My answer is at least 10 years. Maybe forever.

Lajos Juhasz

Posts: 801
Registered: 3/14/14
Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Sep 21, 2015 7:57 AM   in response to: wenjie zhou in response to: wenjie zhou
wenjie zhou wrote:

I want to ask everybody a question. Ansi string will exists for how
many years? My answer is at least 10 years. Maybe forever.

It's difficult to answer this question. Lately I usually work with
UTF-8 files instead of ANSI.
Quentin Correll


Posts: 2,412
Registered: 12/1/99
Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Sep 21, 2015 12:18 PM   in response to: Lajos Juhasz in response to: Lajos Juhasz
Lajos,

| | I want to ask everybody a question. Ansi string will exists for how
| | many years? My answer is at least 10 years. Maybe forever.

| It's difficult to answer this question. Lately I usually work with
| UTF-8 files instead of ANSI.


I'm still using ANSI. <knocking on wood ;->

--

Q -- XanaNews 1.19.1.372 - 2015-09-21 12:18:19
Lajos Juhasz

Posts: 801
Registered: 3/14/14
Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic)  
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  Posted: Sep 21, 2015 7:52 AM   in response to: Dalija Prasnikar in response to: Dalija Prasnikar
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:


Also, when deciding to break or not to break, you have to consider
both impact on existing and future code as well as long term effects.

Unicode broke a lot of things. Some code more than others, but no
matter what kind of code you had, you basically had to go through
most of it making small corrections. Being able to compile did not
imply that code would work properly.

This is true if your code has to support only D2009+ compilers but not
for libraries that still support compilers pre D2009. In that case you
would have to introduce ifdefs for every AnsiXXX function or to create
a helper unit with ifdefs.
Markus Humm

Posts: 5,113
Registered: 11/9/03
Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic)  
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  Posted: Sep 21, 2015 12:57 PM   in response to: Dalija Prasnikar in response to: Dalija Prasnikar
Am 20.09.2015 um 13:05 schrieb Dalija Prasnikar:
Remy Lebeau (TeamB) wrote:

When you do have to make extensive changes or should I say when you have to
go through your code making sure that it is not inadvertently broken (regardless
of changes you would need to apply), striping Ansi prefix from function calls would
be piece of cake. And in the long run it would make your code cleaner and easier
to maintain.

There is nothing worse that having function name that implies functionality that is not
there. Ansi prefix has no place in Unicode functions it just adds to confusion, and what
is even worse it becomes more confusing as the time passes.

Imagine developers that came to Delphi after the Unicode and bump into Ansi routines
in most basic System.SysUtils unit. If someone thinks that having more than one string
type is confusing then what about this.

Also in cases where you do need to call Ansi string routines, you now have to make
sure that you don't have System.SysUtils in your uses clauses, or you have to write
function calls using fully qualified names. Otherwise you may end up with wrong function
being called. Now talk about maintenance nightmare.

They could have made copies of the function declaration without the Ansi
name and just add deprecated specifiers to those Ansi named versions.

In a few releases they would be removed completely then. But that would
have been done with prior note by those deprecated warnings.

Greetings

Markus
Bruce McGee

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Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic)  
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  Posted: Sep 22, 2015 2:33 AM   in response to: Markus Humm in response to: Markus Humm
Markus Humm wrote:

In a few releases they would be removed completely then.

And someone would lose their minds.

--
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Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
Brandon Staggs

Posts: 683
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Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic)  
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  Posted: Sep 22, 2015 5:48 AM   in response to: Bruce McGee in response to: Bruce McGee
"Bruce McGee" wrote on Tue, 22 Sep 2015 02:33:29 -0700:

Markus Humm wrote:

In a few releases they would be removed completely then.

And someone would lose their minds.

Updating uses clauses shouldn't cause anyone to lose their minds.
I've had to do it over the years anyway for other things that have
changed in Delphi.

But yeah, someone would.

--
Brandon Staggs
StudyLamp Software LLC
http://www.studylamp.com
Quentin Correll


Posts: 2,412
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Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic)  
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  Posted: Sep 20, 2015 10:05 AM   in response to: Remy Lebeau (Te... in response to: Remy Lebeau (Te...
Remy,

| | One of the problems with AnsiString routines is that instead of
| | just moving them to another unit, they also left Ansi... named
| | routines inside SysUtils that were no longer operating on Ansi
| | strings.

| That was a conscious decision so that they would not break years and
| years worth of existing code.


For which I, for one, was EXTREMELY grateful!!! It wasn't a "problem"
for me.

--

Q -- XanaNews 1.19.1.372 - 2015-09-20 10:03:09

Brandon Staggs

Posts: 683
Registered: 3/3/01
Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic)  
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  Posted: Sep 20, 2015 11:37 AM   in response to: Quentin Correll in response to: Quentin Correll
"Quentin Correll" wrote on Sun, 20 Sep 2015 10:05:21 -0700:

For which I, for one, was EXTREMELY grateful!!! It wasn't a "problem"
for me.

Well, that's nice and all, but with Unicode comes the fact that
FillChar and AnsiUpperCase (etc) are a lie every time you type them.

The fact is that I work with string data ALL THE TIME and I am always
double-checking that I am calling the correct function regardless of
what the function is named, because the deceptive names cause me to
doubt my own memory. I don't think they needed to break previous
code; they could have deprecated all of the Ansi* functions in
sysutils and let us link against AnsiStrings when we actually want
Ansi functions, which, yes, DO matter because "text is not text"
despite the refrain that "text is text" from hobby programmers who
don't know any better.

--
Brandon Staggs
StudyLamp Software LLC
http://www.studylamp.com
Remy Lebeau (Te...


Posts: 9,447
Registered: 12/23/01
Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic)  
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  Posted: Sep 20, 2015 12:57 PM   in response to: Brandon Staggs in response to: Brandon Staggs
Brandon wrote:

I don't think they needed to break previous code; they could
have deprecated all of the Ansi* functions in sysutils

Sure, though that would pollute the RTL with double the number of string
functions until they eventually removed the deprecated functions (if ever).

--
Remy Lebeau (TeamB)
Brandon Staggs

Posts: 683
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Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic)  
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  Posted: Sep 21, 2015 6:24 AM   in response to: Remy Lebeau (Te... in response to: Remy Lebeau (Te...
"Remy Lebeau" wrote on Sun, 20 Sep 2015 12:57:38 -0700:

Brandon wrote:

I don't think they needed to break previous code; they could
have deprecated all of the Ansi* functions in sysutils

Sure, though that would pollute the RTL with double the number of string
functions until they eventually removed the deprecated functions (if ever).

At some point technical debt needs to be paid off. My suggestion of
deprecation just avoids instantly breaking applications that use those
functions. I wouldn't mind having them completely removed as it would
be trivial to update code to use correct functions, provided they were
simply moved to a new unit.

Although, it is complicated by the fact that UpperCase is not at all a
Unicode friendly version of AnsiUpperCase, as one would expect....

--
Brandon Staggs
StudyLamp Software LLC
http://www.studylamp.com
Joseph Mitzen

Posts: 392
Registered: 6/9/02
Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic)  
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  Posted: Oct 3, 2015 10:28 PM   in response to: Brandon Staggs in response to: Brandon Staggs
Brandon Staggs wrote:

At some point technical debt needs to be paid off.

While I'd love to agree with you, Quentin is a living example to the contrary. ;-) ;-) ;-)

My suggestion of
deprecation just avoids instantly breaking applications that use those
functions. I wouldn't mind having them completely removed as it would
be trivial to update code to use correct functions, provided they were
simply moved to a new unit.

What you and others are suggesting is the norm in many other languages.
Quentin Correll


Posts: 2,412
Registered: 12/1/99
Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic)  
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  Posted: Oct 4, 2015 11:02 AM   in response to: Joseph Mitzen in response to: Joseph Mitzen
Joseph,

| While I'd love to agree with you, Quentin is a living example to the
| contrary. ;-) ;-) ;-)

<chuckle>

--

Q -- XanaNews 1.19.1.372 - 2015-10-04 11:02:06
Quentin Correll


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Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic)  
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  Posted: Sep 20, 2015 3:16 PM   in response to: Brandon Staggs in response to: Brandon Staggs
Brandon,

| Well, that's nice and all, but with Unicode comes the fact that
| FillChar and AnsiUpperCase (etc) are a lie every time you type them.

I understand. And, you are of course right for your usage.

--

Q -- XanaNews 1.19.1.372 - 2015-09-20 15:15:26
Dan Barclay

Posts: 889
Registered: 11/9/03
Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic)  
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  Posted: Sep 21, 2015 8:38 AM   in response to: Remy Lebeau (Te... in response to: Remy Lebeau (Te...
Remy Lebeau (TeamB) wrote:

Dalija wrote:

One of the problems with AnsiString routines is that instead of just
moving them to another unit, they also left Ansi... named routines
inside SysUtils that were no longer operating on Ansi strings.

That was a conscious decision so that they would not break years and
years worth of existing code.

Unfortunatly it still does break existing code. We had corruption
explicitly caused by the back and forth from conversion.

It would have seemed even easier to overload the functions, instead of
creating a situation in which the wrong function is shoehorned into the
slot.

Dan
Joseph Mitzen

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Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic)  
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  Posted: Oct 3, 2015 9:27 PM   in response to: Remy Lebeau (Te... in response to: Remy Lebeau (Te...
Remy Lebeau (TeamB) wrote:
Dalija wrote:

One of the problems with AnsiString routines is that instead of just
moving them to another unit, they also left Ansi... named routines
inside SysUtils that were no longer operating on Ansi strings.

That was a conscious decision so that they would not break years and years
worth of existing code.

Instead, you create an environment to introduce bugs in all the Delphi code that remains to be written. :-(

This is just short-sighted and lazy. Other languages made the same transition to unicode, but they made the extra effort to support the user.

They could have set a date for transition, putting the new names in a new unit at first, allowing users to gradually update their code with the changed functionality. For instance, Python has a "future" unit where changes reside. If they change how a standard library function works in a breaking way, it goes into Future first and will become the standard in the subsequent release. To begin porting code, a user would need to write "from future import ...". Of course Delphi's namespace pollution would make it more difficult to import changes piece by piece, but still.... When you're all done getting your code to work with the new functions and the next version comes that makes the breaking changes, just remove your import lines and you're good to go.

Another option would have been to rename the functions and simply produce a tool to handle the renaming for the user. Python also did this when they broke lots of things for 3.0. "Print" was a statement but became a function. They shipped a tool, "2to3", that could automatically make several of these types of changes to existing source code (as well as produce diff files for manual inspection).

It's hard to imagine that someone thought simply leaving function names in the library that don't do what they say was a good idea. That would seem to be the one unacceptable option. The only way it makes sense is if someone thought there would be little if any new Delphi code in the future.
Lajos Juhasz

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Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic)  
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  Posted: Oct 5, 2015 9:05 AM   in response to: Joseph Mitzen in response to: Joseph Mitzen
Joseph Mitzen wrote:

You really should read my response in this thread. The procedure names
were left in order to support pre and post Delphi 2009 versions for
libraries. This way if the same code is compiled in D7 the procedure
works on (ansi) strings and when built with D2009+ it's also uses
strings but this time unicode strings. Unlike some script language
Delphi libraries support multiple versions. This was the easiest way to
not brake in those libraries support for pre-Delphi 2009.

Maybe this is a bit short-sighted and lazy for you but for Embarcadero
it was the best way to not break third party libraries.

Markus Humm

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Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic)  
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  Posted: Sep 18, 2015 11:30 AM   in response to: wenjie zhou in response to: wenjie zhou
Am 18.09.2015 um 04:03 schrieb wenjie zhou:
Bruce McGee wrote:
Was there extended math support in D2007 that is missing in newer
versions?

Can you point me to an example?

--
Regards,
Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software

That is not the main point. The main question is EMB did not want to let them become one thing.
Think about MOBILE features: "ARC" , "0 based string" , "no AnsiString", "remove WITH", "readonly string" and etc. All these things proved that they do not the same thing.

With has not been removed afaik, at least not on desktop and it could be
removed without much loss for developers, at least when they provided a
little migration tool.

Readonly strings were only thought about. Nobody implemented them yet
and I'm not sure they still thing they would be such a good idea.


EMB even discuss to introduce ARC in Desktop. In my view, Delphi in Mobile is just a Pascal Script, not a native language. The all features is not care efficiency.

The "cool" MOBILE features just like the self drawn controls in FireMonkey, Be flashy without substance.

The "0 based string" was criticized by many developers. And they had to add an option to go back.

Agreed, 0 based strings introduced years afterwards are rubbish.


The "Ansi String" routines had replaced by "UnicodeString", and we found that is very inconvenient. And they had to introduce "AnsiStrings.pas".

Moving string to Unicode was the right thing to do and to keep desktop
developers happy they didn't simply delete all former Ansi routines but
moved them into a unit of their own. No bad idea.

The world need ansistring in no double. And they made a wrong decision.

Where is AnsiString in double?

Greetings

Markus
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic)  
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  Posted: Sep 19, 2015 4:00 AM   in response to: wenjie zhou in response to: wenjie zhou
wenjie zhou wrote:

Bruce McGee wrote:
Was there extended math support in D2007 that is missing in newer
versions?

Can you point me to an example?

--
Regards,
Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software

That is not the main point. The main question is EMB did not want to
let them become one thing. Think about MOBILE features: "ARC" , "0
based string" , "no AnsiString", "remove WITH", "readonly string"
and etc.

FWIW, you can use "with" in the mobile compilers, and you can write to
strings.

And I have absolutely no idea how this reply relates to what Hanspeter
said. He does not want nor need mobile, so yours is certainly not HIS
main point. On the contrary.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Do, or do not. There is no 'try'."
-- Yoda ('The Empire Strikes Back')

Bruce McGee

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Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic)  
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  Posted: Sep 19, 2015 5:32 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:

FWIW, you can use "with" in the mobile compilers, and you can write to
strings.

Got my hopes up and everything. :)

--
Regards,
Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
wenjie zhou

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Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic)  
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  Posted: Sep 20, 2015 7:49 PM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
And I have absolutely no idea how this reply relates to what Hanspeter
said. He does not want nor need mobile, so yours is certainly not HIS
main point. On the contrary.

No i think i did. All contents I have mentioned are not all done in their products.
But all these contents are what they want to do.

The all changes is not good for Native Languages. Some are even harmful.

Just like FireMonkey UI. They want to A UI for all platforms. The result is that in all platforms can not perform best.

Now the same thing happened for compiler. Maybe some feature is better for MOBILE. And then maybe they had to remove some feature from Desktop.

I can cite an example. For X64 desktop, they use PUREPASCAL but no X64 ASM. Because PUREPASCAL is easy to compiler to multiplatform.

And then they had to soss performance.

That's the main point. Just do the best things.

Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic)  
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  Posted: Sep 21, 2015 8:47 AM   in response to: wenjie zhou in response to: wenjie zhou
wenjie zhou wrote:

And I have absolutely no idea how this reply relates to what
Hanspeter said. He does not want nor need mobile, so yours is
certainly not HIS main point. On the contrary.

No i think i did.

You did what?
--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"The ink of the scholar is holier than the blood of the
martyr."
-- Prophet Muhammad
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic)  
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  Posted: Sep 21, 2015 8:50 AM   in response to: wenjie zhou in response to: wenjie zhou
wenjie zhou wrote:

And I have absolutely no idea how this reply relates to what
Hanspeter said. He does not want nor need mobile, so yours is
certainly not HIS main point. On the contrary.

No i think i did. All contents I have mentioned are not all done in
their products. But all these contents are what they want to do.


But that was not his point. He does not care for mobile. And no one
with authority has ever said they want to do these things for the
desktop. There have been lots of assumptions, but hey, that is not new
on these groups. <g>

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Defining and analyzing humor is a pastime of humorless people."
-- Robert Benchley (1889 - 1945)
Markus Humm

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Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic)  
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  Posted: Sep 21, 2015 1:02 PM   in response to: wenjie zhou in response to: wenjie zhou
Am 21.09.2015 um 04:49 schrieb wenjie zhou:
And I have absolutely no idea how this reply relates to what Hanspeter
said. He does not want nor need mobile, so yours is certainly not HIS
main point. On the contrary.

No i think i did. All contents I have mentioned are not all done in their products.
But all these contents are what they want to do.

The all changes is not good for Native Languages. Some are even harmful.

Just like FireMonkey UI. They want to A UI for all platforms. The result is that in all platforms can not perform best.

Now the same thing happened for compiler. Maybe some feature is better for MOBILE. And then maybe they had to remove some feature from Desktop.

I can cite an example. For X64 desktop, they use PUREPASCAL but no X64 ASM. Because PUREPASCAL is easy to compiler to multiplatform.

And then they had to soss performance.

That's the main point. Just do the best things.


Hello,

the X64 compiler on the other hand can use SSE2 instructions which will
provide some speedup in certain cases.

Greetings

Markus
wenjie zhou

Posts: 424
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Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic)  
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  Posted: Sep 21, 2015 6:43 PM   in response to: Markus Humm in response to: Markus Humm
the X64 compiler on the other hand can use SSE2 instructions which will
provide some speedup in certain cases.

Yes, i know.
I don't deny that they do many good job. I just want to say that they have serious problems in the direction
The X64 is just an example, or a metaphor.

We know the self drawn components in FireMonkey. And i know the developers expecte to use the OS components instead.
Because the self drawn components is not good than the OS componets.
That's it. The thing that fits all systems must be the loss of all the specific advantages of the system.

Bruce McGee

Posts: 1,716
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Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic)  
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  Posted: Sep 22, 2015 2:36 AM   in response to: wenjie zhou in response to: wenjie zhou
wenjie zhou wrote:

We know the self drawn components in FireMonkey.

And the native ones. I understand more are being added.

http://docwiki.embarcadero.com/RADStudio/Seattle/en/FireMonkey_Native_iOS_Controls

--
Regards,
Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
John Kaster


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Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic)  
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  Posted: Sep 22, 2015 4:11 PM   in response to: Bruce McGee in response to: Bruce McGee
Bruce McGee wrote:

And the native ones. I understand more are being added.

Yeah, I think this is a good space to watch for that:

http://docwiki.embarcadero.com/RADStudio/Seattle/en/FireMonkey_Native_Controls

--
John Kaster http://johnkaster.wordpress.com
Software solutions

Markus Humm

Posts: 5,113
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Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic)  
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  Posted: Sep 22, 2015 9:39 AM   in response to: wenjie zhou in response to: wenjie zhou
Am 22.09.2015 um 03:43 schrieb wenjie zhou:
the X64 compiler on the other hand can use SSE2 instructions which will
provide some speedup in certain cases.

Yes, i know.
I don't deny that they do many good job. I just want to say that they have serious problems in the direction
The X64 is just an example, or a metaphor.

We know the self drawn components in FireMonkey. And i know the developers expecte to use the OS components instead.
Because the self drawn components is not good than the OS componets.
That's it. The thing that fits all systems must be the loss of all the specific advantages of the system.


Hello,

you know that for certain OS and selected components you can pick the
native ones nowadays in FMX?

Right now it's a start only, but I guess they'll continue that route
while further improving the self drawn ones. I just hope they add
Android ones in the next release!

Greetings

Markus
Robert Love

Posts: 155
Registered: 5/3/07
Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic)  
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  Posted: Sep 13, 2015 11:38 AM   in response to: Hanspeter Widmer in response to: Hanspeter Widmer
Hanspeter Widmer wrote:
2) get old features back

What features are missing? Delphi 10 Seattle looks really good so far. We skip versions as we can't keep up, we have a combination of XE6 and XE7 right now, but this one may be a version worth upgrading too.

Since Rad Studio/Delphi 2007 lots of RTL/VCL features have been added.

Granted I get that you don't want Mobile, but we (My employer) don't do mobile either and there are several improvements on the features that we use that make the upgrades compelling.
Arnaud Bouchez

Posts: 137
Registered: 8/2/15
Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic)  
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  Posted: Sep 14, 2015 5:51 AM   in response to: Hanspeter Widmer in response to: Hanspeter Widmer
If you want a light and fast "classic" IDE, try Lazarus.

It works great, and loads very fast.

My only regret is about debugging under windows: gdb behaves poorly.
But under Linux, gdb is much more stable.
Even if the Delphi debugger, and its internal expression evaluation abilities, is something I miss in Lazarus (and also in Visual Studio, BTW).
Hanspeter Widmer

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Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic)  
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  Posted: Sep 15, 2015 8:30 AM   in response to: Arnaud Bouchez in response to: Arnaud Bouchez
Hi Arnaud,

If you want a light and fast "classic" IDE, try Lazarus.

Well, on Lazarus Win64 same unsupported thing. For simple double math they use the xmm.. registers and for sin/cos the old FPU O;)

or simple rewrite the open source compiler ... geee

BTW: I already tested and asked for..

It works great, and loads very fast.

yes, with very basic components...

My only regret is about debugging under windows: gdb behaves poorly.

better than nothing... and very basic in my opinion as all register dump in one list-box!

Hp
Arnaud Bouchez

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Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic)  
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  Posted: Sep 15, 2015 10:28 AM   in response to: Hanspeter Widmer in response to: Hanspeter Widmer
Hanspeter Widmer wrote:
Well, on Lazarus Win64 same unsupported thing. For simple double math they use the xmm.. registers and for sin/cos the old FPU O;)

Did you try to force the x87 code generation?
There is a flag for the compiler AFAIR.

See https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ee418798#porting_applications_to_64-bit_platforms
The x87, MMX, and 3DNow! instruction sets are deprecated in 64-bit modes. The instructions sets are still present for backward compatibility for 32-bit mode; however, to avoid compatibility issues in the future, their use in current and future projects is discouraged.
Hanspeter Widmer

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Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic)  
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  Posted: Sep 16, 2015 12:26 PM   in response to: Arnaud Bouchez in response to: Arnaud Bouchez
Did you try to force the x87 code generation?

did not find any switches and only within the sources the FPC_HAS_TYPE_EXTENDED conditional compile ...

from [http://forum.lazarus.freepascal.org/index.php/topic,29678.0.html]

On win64 there is no extended support nor will there ever be in the rtl. It defaults to interpreting extended as double,
because afaik the ABI prescribes that. >> And that's probably because of the resolution of modern FPU's.
You are free to use any of the extended math libraries, however. There are many.
Or alternatively use win32. Or scaling: the full range +/- is rarely needed, so scaling would solve most real world issues

In other words no chance

Only on your given link about the VS2015: /fp (Specify Floating-Point Behavior)

[https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/e7s85ffb.aspx]

just my current understanding, all have to use F87 just to calculate any power / log / trigonometric cal's O;)

Cheers

hp

Chris Rolliston

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Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic)  
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  Posted: Sep 20, 2015 3:50 PM   in response to: Hanspeter Widmer in response to: Hanspeter Widmer
Did you try to force the x87 code generation?

did not find any switches and only within the sources the FPC_HAS_TYPE_EXTENDED conditional compile ...

from [http://forum.lazarus.freepascal.org/index.php/topic,29678.0.html]

Is this not a clue that the fact Delphi for Win64 doesn't support Extended is not, in fact, a perverse, unnecessary decision...
Markus Humm

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Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic)  
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  Posted: Sep 21, 2015 1:05 PM   in response to: Chris Rolliston in response to: Chris Rolliston
Am 21.09.2015 um 00:50 schrieb Chris Rolliston:
Did you try to force the x87 code generation?

did not find any switches and only within the sources the FPC_HAS_TYPE_EXTENDED conditional compile ...

from [http://forum.lazarus.freepascal.org/index.php/topic,29678.0.html]

Is this not a clue that the fact Delphi for Win64 doesn't support Extended is not, in fact, a perverse, unnecessary decision...

Hello,

that was a trade off back then: either have the extended data type which
uses the x87 FPU which has speed penalities the way it works (in
comparison to SSE) or to get BASM support intom the compiler within the
available timeframe back then.

Ok, you can argue now, that some years have passed since then. But that
time was needed to do mobile.

If you need Extended look at code central, there's some library for
exact this: 64 bit compiler and extended datatype via FPU support.
I didn't test this library though.

Greetings

Markus
Clement Doss

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Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic)  
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  Posted: Sep 16, 2015 12:41 PM   in response to: Hanspeter Widmer in response to: Hanspeter Widmer
1) separate Delphi Classic and Mobile
2) get old features back

Since EMBT naming convention followed Microsoft, we can assume they have a strategy as strong as Microsoft's one. As MS will not release Windows 11 in a foreseeable future, we can expect EMBT also to keep Delphi 10 as their last IDE for long, loooong time. That will most certainly give them time to improve and fix the RTL/VCL/FMX.

Clément
Alexandre Machado

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Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic)  
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  Posted: Sep 16, 2015 2:27 PM   in response to: Clement Doss in response to: Clement Doss
Clement Doss wrote:
1) separate Delphi Classic and Mobile
2) get old features back

Since EMBT naming convention followed Microsoft, we can assume they have a strategy as strong as Microsoft's one. As MS will not release Windows 11 in a foreseeable future, we can expect EMBT also to keep Delphi 10 as their last IDE for long, loooong time. That will most certainly give them time to improve and fix the RTL/VCL/FMX.

Clément

Seems that they will follow Apple naming convention meaning that the next RAD Studio will be probably 10.1 "Some Other City". Just like Apple with all their 10.x "Some feline"... And this does not mean that it won't be a new version.
Clement Doss

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Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic)  
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  Posted: Sep 16, 2015 2:49 PM   in response to: Alexandre Machado in response to: Alexandre Machado
Seems that they will follow Apple naming convention meaning that the next RAD Studio will be probably 10.1 "Some Other City". Just like Apple with all their 10.x "Some feline"... And this does not mean that it won't be a new version.

I see.. Well, as long as they keep their QPS program up and running I don't care.
That naming convention might lead to Rad Studio 10.x Brazil? <VBG>

Clément
Alexandre Machado

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Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic)  
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  Posted: Sep 16, 2015 4:26 PM   in response to: Clement Doss in response to: Clement Doss
I see.. Well, as long as they keep their QPS program up and running I don't care.
That naming convention might lead to Rad Studio 10.x Brazil? <VBG>

It is better to avoid ANY brazilian city name, otherwise it will be probably worse than Delphi 8 :-)
Remy Lebeau (Te...


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Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic)  
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  Posted: Sep 16, 2015 6:30 PM   in response to: Alexandre Machado in response to: Alexandre Machado
Alexandre wrote:

Seems that they will follow Apple naming convention meaning that
the next RAD Studio will be probably 10.1 "Some Other City".

Not probably - will be. That fact was mentioned in one of the announcements.

--
Remy Lebeau (TeamB)
Eivind Bakkestuen


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Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic)  
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  Posted: Sep 16, 2015 8:48 PM   in response to: Remy Lebeau (Te... in response to: Remy Lebeau (Te...
Not probably - will be. That fact was mentioned in one of the
announcements.

It is not fact until it actually happens.

--
Eivind Bakkestuen [NDD]
Markus Humm

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Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic)  
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  Posted: Sep 17, 2015 11:22 AM   in response to: Hanspeter Widmer in response to: Hanspeter Widmer
Am 13.09.2015 um 17:06 schrieb Hanspeter Widmer:
Yes, this XE10 does not made may day. Even the update and the more or less required support to get bugs fixed (not done in my hands).

Most of the developer I know used Delphi (or since Turbo Pascal) for technical tools in the production cycles. This means Intel HW & MS Windows OS and application(s) for this platform.

In the meantime we have 64 bit support and the extended math support is gone (no debugger data view too).

All that MOBILE Mac & Android stuff is really required, if you need to support the mobile platforms!

Form my, in other words, upgrading from D2007 / Rad Studio 2007 is no value even no one will pay me the upgrade (Unicode migration) and last not least the NO GO of the missing Extended math support (also not willing to deal with tweaks).

Please

1) separate Delphi Classic and Mobile
2) get old features back

Cheers

Hp

Hello,

dropping the Extended datatype on 64 bit compiler was a tradeoff,
beca<use the 64 bit compiler doesn't use x87 instructions for floating
point but the faster SSE SIMD instructions. Unfortunatelly they're 64
bit floats at maximum.

We lost Extended support in favor of BASM support on the 64 bit version.
Otherwise no BASM support.

I can understand your frustration, but as we were told back then that 80
bit Extended datatype was something internal from x87 CPU which wasn't
really meant to be consumed by us users, even if acvcessible.

Greetings

Markus
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic)  
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  Posted: Sep 19, 2015 4:08 AM   in response to: Hanspeter Widmer in response to: Hanspeter Widmer
Hanspeter Widmer wrote:

Form my, in other words, upgrading from D2007 / Rad Studio 2007 is no
value even no one will pay me the upgrade (Unicode migration) and
last not least the NO GO of the missing Extended math support (also
not willing to deal with tweaks).

Um... It is a pity you don't get what you want, but note that you still
have Extended in 32 bit code. The decision not to implement Extended is
a pity, but understandable, as SSE does not support it and that is what
Win64 generally uses.

AFAIK, the migration to Unicode was not that hard or much work at all,
for most people.

Why don't you download the latest version and see how much work the
migration is, and how bad living without a true Extended type is. Yes,
that takes some time, but that is sometimes required if you want
progess.
--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Nothing is wrong with California that a rise in the ocean level
wouldn't cure."
-- Ross MacDonald (1915-1983)
wenjie zhou

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Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic)  
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  Posted: Sep 20, 2015 8:20 PM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...

Why don't you download the latest version and see how much work the
migration is, and how bad living without a true Extended type is. Yes,
that takes some time, but that is sometimes required if you want
progess.

The work for migration is a question.

But the main question is we use AnsiString to translate, And we save AnsiString context.

Our program is a MMORPG game server. We need gread memory. We need a large amount of network data packets.
And our user data is stored as ansistring. Unicode brings us a lot of problem (More memory, Lower efficiency), and there is no good for us.

Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic)  
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  Posted: Sep 21, 2015 8:52 AM   in response to: wenjie zhou in response to: wenjie zhou
wenjie zhou wrote:


Why don't you download the latest version and see how much work the
migration is, and how bad living without a true Extended type is.
Yes, that takes some time, but that is sometimes required if you
want progess.

The work for migration is a question.

But the main question is we use AnsiString to translate, And we save
AnsiString context.


Not quite sure what you are saying, but note that "ansifying" your code
is the WRONG, much more difficult and error prone way to do this.
Leave string as string, and most of it is easy.

Our program is a MMORPG game server. We need gread memory. We need a
large amount of network data packets. And our user data is stored as
ansistring. Unicode brings us a lot of problem (More memory, Lower
efficiency), and there is no good for us.

If it is international, it is probably good for you.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Gentleman: Knows how to play the bagpipes, but doesn't."
Remy Lebeau (Te...


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Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic)  
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  Posted: Sep 21, 2015 11:29 AM   in response to: wenjie zhou in response to: wenjie zhou
wenjie wrote:

But the main question is we use AnsiString to translate, And we save
AnsiString context.

Our program is a MMORPG game server. We need gread memory. We need
a large amount of network data packets. And our user data is stored as
ansistring. Unicode brings us a lot of problem (More memory, Lower
efficiency), and there is no good for us.

What about using UTF8String instead of AnsiString, at least? You keep memory
usage down, while preserving Unicode data without ANSI getting in the way.

--
Remy Lebeau (TeamB)
wenjie zhou

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Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic)  
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  Posted: Sep 21, 2015 7:07 PM   in response to: Remy Lebeau (Te... in response to: Remy Lebeau (Te...
What about using UTF8String instead of AnsiString, at least? You keep memory
usage down, while preserving Unicode data without ANSI getting in the way.

--
Remy Lebeau (TeamB)

Thanks.
I know i can do some job to convert. If i start converting. I will replace String by AnsiString.
Our users are all use same language. We don't have this kind of scene different people in different countries in the same game world.
So ansistring is enough. Occupy less memory. When considering the network transmission. The benefits of AnsiString are more obvious.

I don't want to say UnicodeString is not good. I just want to say that AnsiString has a lot of scenes for it.
Of course, the UTF8String you had mentioned is also a good solution.
Vladimir Ulchenko

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Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic)  
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  Posted: Sep 22, 2015 6:22 AM   in response to: wenjie zhou in response to: wenjie zhou
On Mon, 21 Sep 2015 19:07:30 -0700, wenjie zhou <> wrote:

I know i can do some job to convert. If i start converting. I will replace String by AnsiString.
Our users are all use same language. We don't have this kind of scene different people in different countries in the same game world.
So ansistring is enough. Occupy less memory. When considering the network transmission. The benefits of AnsiString are more obvious.

I don't want to say UnicodeString is not good. I just want to say that AnsiString has a lot of scenes for it.

you're not the only one
I've been working with mid- to big-sized telecoms in russia for more than 15 years and keep using rs2007 and also have similar requirements
one of the reasons not to upgrade is ubiquitous unicode in newer versions which isn't really required but takes more memory than current
ansistring

--
Vladimir Ulchenko aka vavan
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic)  
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  Posted: Sep 22, 2015 9:09 AM   in response to: Vladimir Ulchenko in response to: Vladimir Ulchenko
Vladimir Ulchenko wrote:

I've been working with mid- to big-sized telecoms in russia for more
than 15 years and keep using rs2007 and also have similar
requirements one of the reasons not to upgrade is ubiquitous unicode
in newer versions which isn't really required but takes more memory
than current ansistring

I wonder how many strings you have in memory, and why memory is such a
problem. Do you keep everything in memory?

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"You can't rush good cooking, you can't rush babies out, and you
can't rush software development". -- Unknown
wenjie zhou

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Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic)  
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  Posted: Sep 22, 2015 6:04 PM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
I wonder how many strings you have in memory, and why memory is such a
problem. Do you keep everything in memory?

Assuming that memory is not a problem. But we do some effort and has no any benifit and just more memory.
I don't know why I did it. As a programer hopes better products. Such efforts are clearly unacceptable.

Moreover, use UnicodeString to communicate is a serious problem.

Please, do not solve all types of problems by only one way.

Edited by: wenjie zhou on Sep 22, 2015 6:22 PM
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Sep 23, 2015 3:57 AM   in response to: wenjie zhou in response to: wenjie zhou
wenjie zhou wrote:

I wonder how many strings you have in memory, and why memory is
such a problem. Do you keep everything in memory?

Assuming that memory is not a problem. But we do some effort and has
no any benifit and just more memory. I don't know why I did it. As a
programer hopes better products. Such efforts are clearly
unacceptable.

Nonsense. Most users wanted Unicode.

Moreover, use UnicodeString to communicate is a serious problem.

Is it? Most Windows (and OS X, iOS etc.) APIs use UTF-16. Oh, text
files often don't, but it is very easy to write such text as, say,
UTF-8 without a BOM.
--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"I've finally learned what "upward compatible" means. It means
we get to keep all our old mistakes." -- Dennie van Tassel
Vladimir Ulchenko

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Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Sep 23, 2015 5:23 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
On Wed, 23 Sep 2015 03:57:26 -0700, Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) <newsgroups at rvelthuis dot de> wrote:

Nonsense. Most users wanted Unicode.

I cannot judge whether "most users" wanted unicode or not (can you?) but given that I'm yet to see any business task demanding global
usage of unicode across the entire system within my domain I have my doubts

that doesn't mean I'm not using unicode at all
in fact sometimes I use not only 8-bit ansi and ucs-2 but also say gsm 7-bit alphabet depending on the task

--
Vladimir Ulchenko aka vavan
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Sep 24, 2015 2:39 AM   in response to: Vladimir Ulchenko in response to: Vladimir Ulchenko
Vladimir Ulchenko wrote:

On Wed, 23 Sep 2015 03:57:26 -0700, Rudy Velthuis (TeamB)
<newsgroups at rvelthuis dot de> wrote:

Nonsense. Most users wanted Unicode.

I cannot judge whether "most users" wanted unicode or not (can you?)

I don't have to collect that kind of data myself. It is what
Embarcadero heard from their users.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"When great changes occur in history, when great principles are
involved, as a rule the majority are wrong."
-- Eugene V. Debs
Vladimir Ulchenko

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Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Sep 25, 2015 12:29 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
On Thu, 24 Sep 2015 02:39:14 -0700, Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) <newsgroups at rvelthuis dot de> wrote:

I don't have to collect that kind of data myself. It is what
Embarcadero heard from their users.

I don't think they actually listened to their users

--
Vladimir Ulchenko aka vavan
Ronald Klitsche

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Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Sep 25, 2015 1:11 AM   in response to: Vladimir Ulchenko in response to: Vladimir Ulchenko
I don't have to collect that kind of data myself. It is what
Embarcadero heard from their users.

I don't think they actually listened to their users

Well, they asking for Beacon, Kinvey, Google glass and other current hype
features.
I cant remember any survey about: ZBS, AnsiString or ARC.

Ronald
Mike Margerum

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Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Sep 25, 2015 6:47 AM   in response to: Ronald Klitsche in response to: Ronald Klitsche
Well, they asking for Beacon, Kinvey, Google glass and other current hype
features.
I cant remember any survey about: ZBS, AnsiString or ARC.

Ronald
I keep seeing this push for IOT and Delphi and i'm wondering if anyone
is actually using this stuff. I can see the beacons tech being useful.

They should be going full tilt into providing web development tools IMO
like Elevate Web Builder. A VCL for the web. Now that's something i'd
pay for.
Joseph Mitzen

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Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Oct 3, 2015 10:43 PM   in response to: Mike Margerum in response to: Mike Margerum
Mike Margerum wrote:

They should be going full tilt into providing web development tools IMO
like Elevate Web Builder. A VCL for the web. Now that's something i'd
pay for.

Really? You've got a thousand frameworks in dozens of languages for free; why would you pay hundreds of dollars for proprietary code to make a web page?

Here, here's just one option among more than I could possibly list if you want WYSIWYG:

http://www.silex.me/
Mike Margerum

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Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Oct 4, 2015 9:04 AM   in response to: Joseph Mitzen in response to: Joseph Mitzen
On 10/4/15 1:43 AM, Joseph Mitzen wrote:
Mike Margerum wrote:

They should be going full tilt into providing web development tools IMO
like Elevate Web Builder. A VCL for the web. Now that's something i'd
pay for.

Really? You've got a thousand frameworks in dozens of languages for free; why would you pay hundreds of dollars for proprietary code to make a web page?

Glad you asked :D

I use a few of these web frameworks. It's a nightmare to try and keep
up with these constantly morphing front ends: Angular (Being completely
rewritten with massive code incompatibilities), backbone, Durandal (now
a total rewrite in Aurelia), React, Ember, Knockout. Then there's the
massive tooling you have to maintain to build your app: Gulp, grunt,
NPM, webpack, TSC, browserify. What's the likeliehood the one you
choose will continue to "just work" in a year? How about 12 years? I
have 15 year old VCL apps that recompile in Delphi XE10. I have iOS
apps that were written for iPhone 2 that require very little to keep
them running.

People get bored and either abandon projects or rewrite them breaking
lots of stuff. I'm going to have to rewrite my Angular 1.x app because
Angular 2.x broke tons of crap. It's getting old. I get paid to get
stuff done quickly.

The one thing I do like about these frameworks over Delphi is the
binding system and MVVM approach. No reason though Delphi could not
support this as well.

Here's a few good reasons id rather use Delphi

* Using one language on client and server. Could potentially even
marshal objects / datasets across with 0 code. I've done this with Node
and I like it. I want to build web apps the same way I build 2 tier
Delphi apps now. It doesn't mean they are two tier but I don't really
care how the middleware does its magic. I don't work for Facebook. It
doesnt need to scale to 100,000 users. BTW, i've already written my own
middleware in GO and .Net. It's great fun and super interesting. But
it takes time. Lot's of time.

* Compile time checking and type safety. I realize TypeScript is
remedying this which is good.

* RAD component development. I don't feel the need to hand code Angular
controllers, services, Bootstrap tables and forms. I want to drag a
grid on a form and attach to to a dataset with tons of boiler plate code
for lookups, in place editors, aggregates, headers, footer already
written for me. I want to buy commercial components that I can glue
together to build LOB apps. I want to pay the guy so he doesn't get
bored :D I do not want server round tripping to render the controls.

* Reporting. I want to use fastreport to render reports on my client
app without me writing a bunch of code. Including changes i'm making on
the client. I don't want to render them from the server sometimes.

* Datasets FTW. I want FDMemtable type datasets that track changes and
let me resolve these changes to the server without writing code. Again,
i've written my own pretty sophisticated synchronization systems. Great
fun! Takes forever. I'd still rather use a cached dataset.

So this isn't the utopian vision of a perfectly architected n tier
system. I can live with that because im more interested in "Getting
Sh** done®" I keep hearing what a bad idea this is and how it cant be
maintained and yet, somehow i've managed to maintain a 2 tier system for
a client with very little effort for 12 years. It just works. all the
time.

Something like Delphi for the web obviously isn't going to work for
every situation but if you are building boring LOB apps with lots of
data entry, grids, and reporting it could be great.

Dan Barclay

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Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Oct 5, 2015 8:47 AM   in response to: Mike Margerum in response to: Mike Margerum
Mike Margerum wrote:

Well, they asking for Beacon, Kinvey, Google glass and other
current hype features.
I cant remember any survey about: ZBS, AnsiString or ARC.

Ronald
I keep seeing this push for IOT and Delphi and i'm wondering if
anyone is actually using this stuff. I can see the beacons tech
being useful.

They should be going full tilt into providing web development tools
IMO like Elevate Web Builder. A VCL for the web. Now that's
something i'd pay for.

Eh? Maybe I missed some earlier messages so if Intraweb has already
been discussed you can move on.

Intraweb is VCL for the web, and it works great. We were even able to
reuse our changes to existing VCL controls with IW controls.

Browsers have different behavior than rich clients, but if you use
Intraweb most of those differences are taken care of.

We have tons of code in use commonly between Intraweb and VCL, which is
important to us.

Dan
Mike Margerum

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Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Oct 5, 2015 9:43 AM   in response to: Dan Barclay in response to: Dan Barclay
Browsers have different behavior than rich clients, but if you use
Intraweb most of those differences are taken care of.

We have tons of code in use commonly between Intraweb and VCL, which is
important to us.

Dan
I'll have another look at it dan. Thanks. it's been a while. The last
time i looked it was mostly server rendering and I didnt see any kind of
cached dataset capability. I have the Delphi architect SA sku so I
think I do get a copy of it.
Dan Barclay

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Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Oct 6, 2015 8:49 AM   in response to: Mike Margerum in response to: Mike Margerum
Mike Margerum wrote:

Browsers have different behavior than rich clients, but if you use
Intraweb most of those differences are taken care of.

We have tons of code in use commonly between Intraweb and VCL,
which is important to us.

Dan
I'll have another look at it dan. Thanks. it's been a while. The
last time i looked it was mostly server rendering and I didnt see any
kind of cached dataset capability. I have the Delphi architect SA
sku so I think I do get a copy of it.

I'm not sure what you mean by cached dataset, but pretty much anything
you could do with Dephi data wise you can do with IW.

IW has the ability to use pooled datamodules, if you really want to get
fancy.

You'd probably want to use data components per session, or from the
pool. Some ActiveX based data (ADO) probably doesn't take kindly to
the multiple threds. Session components, or pooled, are trivial to
create.

The only downside to IW that I've found so far is that documentation is
sparse. It comes mostly in the form of demos, and online support.
Fortunately online support is outstanding. Even better, the way you do
things in IW makes sense so you usually guess right the first time.

When you get started, ask questions on the
delphi.thirdpartytools.intraweb section here, or on their own newsgroup
news.atozed.com

Dan
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Sep 25, 2015 1:40 AM   in response to: Vladimir Ulchenko in response to: Vladimir Ulchenko
Vladimir Ulchenko wrote:

On Thu, 24 Sep 2015 02:39:14 -0700, Rudy Velthuis (TeamB)
<newsgroups at rvelthuis dot de> wrote:

I don't have to collect that kind of data myself. It is what
Embarcadero heard from their users.

I don't think they actually listened to their users

You can think what you want. I know they did and do.

Oh, sure, they won't and can't do everything suggested, and there will
always be people who are disappointed that things didn't work out as
they wanted, but that is inherent to any large scale product.
--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"The most detestable wickedness, the most horrid cruelties, and
the greatest miseries that have afflicted the human race have
had their origin in this thing called revelation, or revealed
religion."
-- Thomas Paine
Vladimir Ulchenko

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Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Sep 25, 2015 2:17 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
On Fri, 25 Sep 2015 01:40:43 -0700, Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) <newsgroups at rvelthuis dot de> wrote:

You can think what you want. I know they did and do.

everyone is free to pretend he knows something :)

--
Vladimir Ulchenko aka vavan
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Sep 25, 2015 2:19 AM   in response to: Vladimir Ulchenko in response to: Vladimir Ulchenko
Vladimir Ulchenko wrote:

On Fri, 25 Sep 2015 01:40:43 -0700, Rudy Velthuis (TeamB)
<newsgroups at rvelthuis dot de> wrote:

You can think what you want. I know they did and do.

everyone is free to pretend he knows something :)

Fine, but I do not pretend. I do know.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained
by stupidity." -- Hanlon's razor
Joseph Mitzen

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Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Oct 3, 2015 11:10 PM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:

You can think what you want. I know they did and do.

When I was chatting with David I., I got the exact opposite impression, more of a "who knows?" attitude. I was discussing a survey they did and how it didn't give them a representative sample (sampling the first 500 people to buy your latest product is like Apple polling the people camped out outside its store for an iPhone launch). I talked about how this misses people who weren't happy and decided not to upgrade to the newest version and how talking to those people might be even more useful in many ways. I got a reply along the lines of "People leave Delphi for C#, people leave C# for Delphi, so we just keep on doing what we're doing". Discounting whether there's equal conversions between Delphi and C#, it was just a big shrug of the shoulders and a suggestion that they do what they do regardless of what goes on in objective external reality.

I remember when I worked for a huge company and the Director I reported to didn't want to push the VP for new reporting software. I told him how the report he wanted was impossible to do with our current software and that I'd calculated that within 3 years our data would have grown large enough that even our monthly reports would stop working. He exclaimed that we didn't need them and the company (which had about 680 stores at the time) would keep on functioning without them.

I talked about this with a co-worker (who was promoted to management after I left). He told me that what our boss had said was very troubling. If external reality changes and our actions don't, that means our actions aren't based on anything occurring in external reality. He told me that was a far more serious problem than my issues with the database software. (Oh, almost 3 years after I quit a former co-worker told me they'd just upgraded the report software)

Delphi, for quite some time, has had no connection to objective external reality. Its pricing has no relation to the external market. When VS went free, the only response from EMBT was to announce a price INCREASE. Open source has changed the world, especially the world of development (latest poll shows 4 out of 5 developers are using open source dev tools now, even C# and Swift are going open source), yet things keep right on the same. The community doesn't even discuss this or the VS bombshell. When Delphi.NET was a product people produced data showing that hardly anyone used it - no sign of users on the forums, a German language Delphi forum removed its .NET section since there were no posts, no sign of them in surveys, etc. Nick Hodges was told that if Delphi.NET users existed, the SKU was not being purchased by users on this planet :-) before being hit with a wall of facts.. Nick Hodges insisted that he had access to special, magical data that no one else could see that told him there were a huge number of Delphi.NET users who simply never posted on a forum, answered a survey, downloaded anything from Torry, etc. Of course the first thing EMBT did was kill Delphi.NET... draw your own conclusions about the quality of said data. Even in death, Delphi.NET users made not a peep. :-) Your claim, without any data to back it, doesn't mean any more to the rest of us then Nick's insistence that special internal numbers told him we're wrong.

Heck, Rudy, you yourself have insisted that Delphi is still used by major companies in major, new projects (not that anyone can name any).

Employee reviews of EMBT on Glassdoor have, as the number one employee recommendation, that managers NEED TO LISTEN TO THE USERS MORE. One recently detailed a claim about EMBT having no understanding of where their product fits in the market in terms of capabilities and price, with the CEO being the worst.

Ask yourself this... would any company that understood its users have tried that database EULA change?

So I'm sorry, but there's no evidence that EMBT even has a viable means of listening to its users (what company has a forum but doesn't read it?!?), let alone signs that the customers shape the product. Heck, remember the Delphi 7 "Special Edition"? It was a bootleg Delphi that made the torrent rounds. The creator argued that he was offering what Delphi users really wanted instead of Delphi 8: Delphi 7, with the 3rd party fixes and popular extensions added, FastMem added, bug fixes backported from later versions, and a host of useful/necessary 3rd party open source libraries included by default and installed in the palette. I'd suggest that even today there would be a lot of people who would like to see most of those steps taken with the current Delphi.

No, they haven't given the users what they really want in many, many years. They've told them what they wanted. And now with the mandatory subscription, they're forcing it on them.
Bruce McGee

Posts: 1,716
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Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Oct 4, 2015 5:35 AM   in response to: Joseph Mitzen in response to: Joseph Mitzen
Joseph Mitzen wrote:

So I'm sorry, but there's no evidence that EMBT even has a viable
means of listening to its users

"We've tried nothing and we're all out of ideas"

https://forums.embarcadero.com/message.jspa?messageID=673404&tstart=0

--
Regards,
Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software

Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Oct 4, 2015 8:30 AM   in response to: Joseph Mitzen in response to: Joseph Mitzen
Joseph Mitzen wrote:

I got a reply along the lines of "People leave Delphi for C#, people
leave C# for Delphi, so we just keep on doing what we're doing".

I sometimes give replies like that so I don't have to explain more. I'm
sure DavidI did not want to discuss their methodology with you.

Yet, I do know they listen to their customer, no matter what personal
impression you got. And yes, there will always be customers who leave
you and people who come in as new customers.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Solutions are not the answer."
-- Richard Nixon, former U.S. President
Quentin Correll


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Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Oct 4, 2015 11:15 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy,

| Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

Why is your domain for sale?

--

Q -- XanaNews 1.19.1.372 - 2015-10-04 11:15:17
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Oct 5, 2015 11:38 PM   in response to: Quentin Correll in response to: Quentin Correll
Quentin Correll wrote:

Rudy,


Why is your domain for sale?

Long story. I had problems getting the authinfo from my former ISP (I
had to switch when we moved) and exactly when I was on vacation, it all
of a sudden was sold to this domain name grabber. Their first offer was
9,900 Euro, but they're already down to 800 Euro. I'll wait until it
gets near 60 Euro (my offer) and then buy it back.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Hearing nuns' confessions is like being stoned to death with
popcorn." -- Fulton Sheen.
Achim Kalwa

Posts: 70
Registered: 10/22/99
Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Oct 6, 2015 11:04 PM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Am 06.10.2015 um 08:38 schrieb Rudy Velthuis (TeamB):


Why is your domain for sale?

Long story.

So your email-address newsgroups@... is not valid anymore?
Just in case I would like to contact you by email...

Achim

Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Oct 7, 2015 12:05 AM   in response to: Achim Kalwa in response to: Achim Kalwa
Achim Kalwa wrote:

Am 06.10.2015 um 08:38 schrieb Rudy Velthuis (TeamB):


Why is your domain for sale?

Long story.

So your email-address newsgroups@... is not valid anymore?
Just in case I would like to contact you by email...

No, it isn't. Not at the moment.

--
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"Peace is only possible if men cease to place their happiness
in the possession of things which cannot be shared."
-- Julien Benda
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Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Oct 7, 2015 1:49 PM   in response to: Achim Kalwa in response to: Achim Kalwa
Achim Kalwa wrote:

Am 06.10.2015 um 08:38 schrieb Rudy Velthuis (TeamB):


Why is your domain for sale?

Long story.

So your email-address newsgroups@... is not valid anymore?
Just in case I would like to contact you by email...

I see you found my main e-mail address. <g>

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"The public is wonderfully tolerant. It forgives everything
except genius."
-- Oscar Wilde
Quentin Correll


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Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Oct 7, 2015 11:09 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy,

Wow!

Good luck with your buy-back!!!

--

Q -- XanaNews 1.19.1.372 - 2015-10-07 11:09:08
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Oct 7, 2015 1:50 PM   in response to: Quentin Correll in response to: Quentin Correll
Quentin Correll wrote:

Rudy,

Wow!

Good luck with your buy-back!!!

Thanks.

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"Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything
that counts can be counted." -- Albert Einstein
Markus Humm

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Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Oct 5, 2015 2:08 PM   in response to: Joseph Mitzen in response to: Joseph Mitzen
Am 04.10.2015 um 08:10 schrieb Joseph Mitzen:

So I'm sorry, but there's no evidence that EMBT even has a viable means of listening to its users (what company has a forum but doesn't read it?!?), let alone signs that the customers shape the product. Heck, remember the Delphi 7 "Special Edition"? It was a bootleg Delphi that made the torrent rounds. The creator argued that he was offering what Delphi users really wanted instead of Delphi 8: Delphi 7, with the 3rd party fixes and popular extensions added, FastMem added, bug fixes backported from later v
ersions, and a host of useful/necessary 3rd party open source libraries included by default and installed in the palette. I'd suggest that even today there would be a lot of people who would like to see most of those steps taken with the current Delphi.

Hello,

about those popular extensions: have you already looked at how easy it
is in XE8 or D10 to add some of the popular free 3rd party libraries
nowdays?

The new function's name is GetIt and it's in the tools menu. Now if more
projects would provide their stuff via that mechanism, installation
could be easier for users who lack the knowledge and patience to find
out how to do this for each component.

Greetings

Markus
Joseph Mitzen

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Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Oct 3, 2015 10:38 PM   in response to: Vladimir Ulchenko in response to: Vladimir Ulchenko
Vladimir Ulchenko wrote:
On Wed, 23 Sep 2015 03:57:26 -0700, Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) <newsgroups at rvelthuis dot de> wrote:

Nonsense. Most users wanted Unicode.

I cannot judge whether "most users" wanted unicode or not (can you?)

It's the international standard so it makes sense that people would want it. Without it you're isolated from the rest of the world in terms of data transfer.
Vladimir Ulchenko

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Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Oct 5, 2015 2:49 AM   in response to: Joseph Mitzen in response to: Joseph Mitzen
On Sat, 3 Oct 2015 22:38:24 -0700, Joseph Mitzen <> wrote:

It's the international standard so it makes sense that people would want it. Without it you're isolated from the rest of the world in terms of data transfer.

rs2007 (and below) doesn't restrict ones right to use unicode whenever required for data transfer
but when all you need is national+latin alphabet covered by 8-bit ansistring in 99% of daily business tasks it doesn't make sense to waste
more space when it isn't needed

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Vladimir Ulchenko aka vavan
Markus Humm

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Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Oct 5, 2015 12:58 PM   in response to: Vladimir Ulchenko in response to: Vladimir Ulchenko
Am 05.10.2015 um 11:49 schrieb Vladimir Ulchenko:
On Sat, 3 Oct 2015 22:38:24 -0700, Joseph Mitzen <> wrote:

It's the international standard so it makes sense that people would want it. Without it you're isolated from the rest of the world in terms of data transfer.

rs2007 (and below) doesn't restrict ones right to use unicode whenever required for data transfer
but when all you need is national+latin alphabet covered by 8-bit ansistring in 99% of daily business tasks it doesn't make sense to waste
more space when it isn't needed

But the underlying OS uses it anyway and provides the Ansi versions of
the APIs just for backwards compatibility.

Greetings

Markus
Vladimir Ulchenko

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Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Oct 5, 2015 11:03 PM   in response to: Markus Humm in response to: Markus Humm
On Mon, 5 Oct 2015 12:58:39 -0700, Markus Humm <markus dot humm at freenet dot de> wrote:

But the underlying OS uses it anyway and provides the Ansi versions of

yes it does. so what? OS internals are invariant but I can choose what to use in user space

the APIs just for backwards compatibility.

which is great

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Markus Humm

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Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Oct 6, 2015 11:22 AM   in response to: Vladimir Ulchenko in response to: Vladimir Ulchenko
Am 06.10.2015 um 08:03 schrieb Vladimir Ulchenko:
On Mon, 5 Oct 2015 12:58:39 -0700, Markus Humm <markus dot humm at freenet dot de> wrote:

But the underlying OS uses it anyway and provides the Ansi versions of

yes it does. so what? OS internals are invariant but I can choose what to use in user space

the APIs just for backwards compatibility.

which is great

But no long time stragtegy: those APIs might not provided in the future
and some new APIs afaik already come without such ANSI versions.

Greetings

Markus
Vladimir Ulchenko

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Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Oct 7, 2015 2:07 AM   in response to: Markus Humm in response to: Markus Humm
On Tue, 6 Oct 2015 11:22:48 -0700, Markus Humm <markus dot humm at freenet dot de> wrote:

But no long time stragtegy: those APIs might not provided in the future
and some new APIs afaik already come without such ANSI versions.

using OS API is only part of everyday application duties and in some corner cases where ANSI version is missing one is free to convert ansi
to unicode whenever required. btw I never encountered such obstacles

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Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Oct 7, 2015 7:24 AM   in response to: Vladimir Ulchenko in response to: Vladimir Ulchenko
Vladimir Ulchenko wrote:

But no long time stragtegy: those APIs might not provided in the
future and some new APIs afaik already come without such ANSI
versions.

using OS API is only part of everyday application duties and in some
corner cases where ANSI version is missing one is free to convert
ansi to unicode whenever required.

Not only are there Windows APIs that do not support Ansi, once you move
to other platforms, you will see a severe lack of Ansi. <g>
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"The death of dogma is the birth of morality."
-- Immanuel Kant
Vladimir Ulchenko

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Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Oct 8, 2015 1:33 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
On Wed, 7 Oct 2015 07:24:49 -0700, Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) <newsgroups at rvelthuis dot de> wrote:

Not only are there Windows APIs that do not support Ansi, once you move
to other platforms, you will see a severe lack of Ansi. <g>

that's not going to happen hence pointless

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Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Oct 8, 2015 11:45 AM   in response to: Vladimir Ulchenko in response to: Vladimir Ulchenko
Vladimir Ulchenko wrote:

On Wed, 7 Oct 2015 07:24:49 -0700, Rudy Velthuis (TeamB)
<newsgroups at rvelthuis dot de> wrote:

Not only are there Windows APIs that do not support Ansi, once you
move to other platforms, you will see a severe lack of Ansi. <g>

that's not going to happen hence pointless

Ah, you don't get out much. <g>

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Assassins!"
-- Arturo Toscanini (1867-1957) to his orchestra
Vladimir Ulchenko

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Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Oct 12, 2015 1:40 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
On Thu, 8 Oct 2015 11:45:44 -0700, Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) <newsgroups at rvelthuis dot de> wrote:

Ah, you don't get out much. <g>

I meant those apps I was talking about aren't making their ways for other platforms

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Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Oct 12, 2015 2:40 AM   in response to: Vladimir Ulchenko in response to: Vladimir Ulchenko
Vladimir Ulchenko wrote:

On Thu, 8 Oct 2015 11:45:44 -0700, Rudy Velthuis (TeamB)
<newsgroups at rvelthuis dot de> wrote:

Ah, you don't get out much. <g>

I meant those apps I was talking about aren't making their ways for
other platforms

Yeah, that is what wenjie zhou says too. So you don't care if your apps
are future proof. OK.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. The
opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth."
-- Niels Bohr (1885-1962)
Vladimir Ulchenko

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Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Oct 12, 2015 3:12 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
On Mon, 12 Oct 2015 02:40:06 -0700, Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) <newsgroups at rvelthuis dot de> wrote:

Yeah, that is what wenjie zhou says too. So you don't care if your apps
are future proof. OK.

breaking existing apps goes against our future-proofing concept
spending/wasting resources to gain nothing useful in return isn't especially attractive either

unless and until windows will stop supporting existing apis thus break all ansi oriented apps and on condition that my clients willing to
cover expenses to migrate software to newer platforms it's hard to justify such useless moves

if that will happen someday then I'll revisit my choices

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Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Oct 12, 2015 5:31 AM   in response to: Vladimir Ulchenko in response to: Vladimir Ulchenko
Vladimir Ulchenko wrote:

On Mon, 12 Oct 2015 02:40:06 -0700, Rudy Velthuis (TeamB)
<newsgroups at rvelthuis dot de> wrote:

Yeah, that is what wenjie zhou says too. So you don't care if your
apps are future proof. OK.

breaking existing apps goes against our future-proofing concept

So you failed to make it future proof and now you declare that a
future-proofing concept?

Sheesh.

And who said anything about breaking existing apps? You don't have to
break anything to make it future-proof.

Sheesh again.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"I'm Jewish. I don't work out. If God had wanted us to bend over,
He would have put diamonds on the floor." -- Joan Rivers.
Vladimir Ulchenko

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Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Oct 12, 2015 6:17 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
On Mon, 12 Oct 2015 05:31:46 -0700, Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) <newsgroups at rvelthuis dot de> wrote:

So you failed to make it future proof and now you declare that a

I didn't but feel free to let your imagination fly further away :)

And who said anything about breaking existing apps? You don't have to

I did
I don't need the risk of being hit by new bugs, regression problems and reduced capabilities induced by switching to newer unicode based
d/bcb and other lib versions

end users won't take updated/renewed app version capable of handling only half of typical workload of previous version other than broken

Sheesh again.

those users indeed will find their stronger words to express their feelings

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Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Oct 12, 2015 7:08 AM   in response to: Vladimir Ulchenko in response to: Vladimir Ulchenko
Vladimir Ulchenko wrote:

On Mon, 12 Oct 2015 05:31:46 -0700, Rudy Velthuis (TeamB)
<newsgroups at rvelthuis dot de> wrote:

So you failed to make it future proof and now you declare that a

I didn't but feel free to let your imagination fly further away :)

Yes, you did. See your post before that.

And who said anything about breaking existing apps? You don't have
to

I did
I don't need the risk of being hit by new bugs

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Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"I am become death, shatterer of worlds."
-- Robert J. Oppenheimer (1904-1967) (citing from the
Bhagavad Gita, after witnessing the world's first nuclear
explosion)

Vladimir Ulchenko

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Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Oct 12, 2015 7:26 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
On Mon, 12 Oct 2015 07:08:36 -0700, Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) <newsgroups at rvelthuis dot de> wrote:

Yes, you did. See your post before that.

not sure what you're implying with that

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Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Oct 12, 2015 7:10 AM   in response to: Vladimir Ulchenko in response to: Vladimir Ulchenko
Vladimir Ulchenko wrote:

end users won't take updated/renewed app version capable of handling
only half of typical workload

So you fill the available memory to the brim?

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Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"It is better to be feared than loved, if you cannot be both."
-- Niccolo Machiavelli (1469-1527), "The Prince"
Vladimir Ulchenko

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Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Oct 12, 2015 7:26 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
On Mon, 12 Oct 2015 07:10:28 -0700, Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) <newsgroups at rvelthuis dot de> wrote:

So you fill the available memory to the brim?

application doesn't impose any artifical constraints on memory usage so end user is free to push it to its limits and as soon as memory is
exhausted one will get infamous out of memory error

the point is with unicode strings their limit is roughly speaking twice as closer as compared to ansi

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Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Oct 12, 2015 8:14 AM   in response to: Vladimir Ulchenko in response to: Vladimir Ulchenko
Vladimir Ulchenko wrote:

On Mon, 12 Oct 2015 07:10:28 -0700, Rudy Velthuis (TeamB)
<newsgroups at rvelthuis dot de> wrote:

So you fill the available memory to the brim?

application doesn't impose any artifical constraints on memory usage
so end user is free to push it to its limits and as soon as memory is
exhausted one will get infamous out of memory error

That can also happen with 8 bit strings. It just happens a little
earlier with 16 bit strings, if you really fill all your memory with
them.

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Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

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Bruce McGee

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Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Oct 12, 2015 8:25 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:

That can also happen with 8 bit strings. It just happens a little
earlier with 16 bit strings, if you really fill all your memory with
them.

Keeping so many strings in memory that you worry about running out of
address space might be considered a questionable design decision.

--
Regards,
Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
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Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Oct 12, 2015 8:29 AM   in response to: Bruce McGee in response to: Bruce McGee
Bruce McGee wrote:

Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:

That can also happen with 8 bit strings. It just happens a little
earlier with 16 bit strings, if you really fill all your memory with
them.

Keeping so many strings in memory that you worry about running out of
address space might be considered a questionable design decision.

Indeed. I had some stronger wording, but deleted it before posting. <g>

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"I agree with the reforms, but I want nothing to change"
-- Ion Luca Caragiale, Romanian playwriter, 1880
Vladimir Ulchenko

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Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Oct 12, 2015 8:42 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
On Mon, 12 Oct 2015 08:29:24 -0700, Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) <newsgroups at rvelthuis dot de> wrote:

Indeed. I had some stronger wording, but deleted it before posting. <g>

why, feel free to use it and we'll ban you :)

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Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Oct 12, 2015 8:43 AM   in response to: Vladimir Ulchenko in response to: Vladimir Ulchenko
Vladimir Ulchenko wrote:

On Mon, 12 Oct 2015 08:29:24 -0700, Rudy Velthuis (TeamB)
<newsgroups at rvelthuis dot de> wrote:

Indeed. I had some stronger wording, but deleted it before posting.
<g>

why, feel free to use it and we'll ban you :)

You can't ban me. But OTOH, I could ban you. <g>

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Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake."
-- Napoleon
Vladimir Ulchenko

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Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Oct 12, 2015 11:48 PM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
On Mon, 12 Oct 2015 08:43:45 -0700, Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) <newsgroups at rvelthuis dot de> wrote:

You can't ban me. But OTOH, I could ban you. <g>

it is a pity I can't ;)

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Bruce McGee

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Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Oct 12, 2015 8:52 AM   in response to: Vladimir Ulchenko in response to: Vladimir Ulchenko
Vladimir Ulchenko wrote:

On Mon, 12 Oct 2015 08:29:24 -0700, Rudy Velthuis (TeamB)
<newsgroups at rvelthuis dot de> wrote:

Indeed. I had some stronger wording, but deleted it before posting.
<g>

why, feel free to use it and we'll ban you :)

"we"?

--
Regards,
Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
Vladimir Ulchenko

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Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Oct 12, 2015 11:48 PM   in response to: Bruce McGee in response to: Bruce McGee
On Mon, 12 Oct 2015 08:52:03 -0700, Bruce McGee <bmcgee at glooscap dot com> wrote:

"we"?

I believe I'm not the only one ;)

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Vladimir Ulchenko aka vavan
Vladimir Ulchenko

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Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Oct 12, 2015 8:39 AM   in response to: Bruce McGee in response to: Bruce McGee
On Mon, 12 Oct 2015 08:25:13 -0700, Bruce McGee <bmcgee at glooscap dot com> wrote:

Keeping so many strings in memory that you worry about running out of
address space might be considered a questionable design decision.

life is tough and careless memory handling is commonplace of most libs implementation (including standard vcl/rtl and thirdparties)
I already had to implement my own versions of some libs in order to alleviate at least some memory related problems and push those limits
further

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Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Oct 12, 2015 8:44 AM   in response to: Vladimir Ulchenko in response to: Vladimir Ulchenko
Vladimir Ulchenko wrote:

On Mon, 12 Oct 2015 08:25:13 -0700, Bruce McGee <bmcgee at glooscap dot com>
wrote:

Keeping so many strings in memory that you worry about running out
of address space might be considered a questionable design decision.

life is tough and careless memory handling is commonplace of most
libs implementation

Not IME. And I have seen the source code of quite a lot of good libs,
lately.
--
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revolutionary is guided by great feelings of love. It is
impossible to think of a genuine revolutionary lacking this
quality."
-- Ernesto 'Che' Guevara
Vladimir Ulchenko

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Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Oct 12, 2015 11:48 PM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
On Mon, 12 Oct 2015 08:44:41 -0700, Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) <newsgroups at rvelthuis dot de> wrote:

Not IME. And I have seen the source code of quite a lot of good libs,

undoubtedly being from different realities we have very different experiences
oh and glancing at the sources of lib cannot always supersede field tests in real-world apps ;)

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Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Oct 13, 2015 12:19 AM   in response to: Vladimir Ulchenko in response to: Vladimir Ulchenko
Vladimir Ulchenko wrote:

On Mon, 12 Oct 2015 08:44:41 -0700, Rudy Velthuis (TeamB)
<newsgroups at rvelthuis dot de> wrote:

Not IME. And I have seen the source code of quite a lot of good
libs,

undoubtedly being from different realities

Or you just chose crappy libs.

But then, now I see that Julian Bucknall corrected you, it may well be
that you simply don't use them properly. So, indeed, we seem to live in
different realities. <g>

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Know all and you will pardon all."
-- Thomas à Kempis
Vladimir Ulchenko

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Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Oct 13, 2015 12:32 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
On Tue, 13 Oct 2015 00:19:07 -0700, Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) <newsgroups at rvelthuis dot de> wrote:

that you simply don't use them properly. So, indeed, we seem to live in
different realities. <g>

sure, full time pro developing and maintaining mission critical 24x7 services and dilettante, hobbyist and moderator indeed live in
different worlds

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Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Oct 13, 2015 12:57 AM   in response to: Vladimir Ulchenko in response to: Vladimir Ulchenko
Vladimir Ulchenko wrote:

On Tue, 13 Oct 2015 00:19:07 -0700, Rudy Velthuis (TeamB)
<newsgroups at rvelthuis dot de> wrote:

that you simply don't use them properly. So, indeed, we seem to
live in different realities. <g>

sure, full time pro developing and maintaining mission critical 24x7
services and dilettante, hobbyist and moderator indeed live in
different worlds

Indeed. But it was not me who said you used things the wrong way. It
was the writer of the library you criticized. So I seem to be in the
real world.

And I think I started programming earlier than you (more than 30 years
ago), so calling me a dilettante is, well, a hoot.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"A hen is only an egg's way of making another egg."
-- Samuel Butler
Vladimir Ulchenko

Posts: 248
Registered: 1/12/00
Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Oct 13, 2015 1:28 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
On Tue, 13 Oct 2015 00:57:22 -0700, Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) <newsgroups at rvelthuis dot de> wrote:

Indeed. But it was not me who said you used things the wrong way. It
was the writer of the library you criticized. So I seem to be in the

I believe devex CTO stopped writing their delphi libs years ago and just doesn't know what I was talking about

anyway it doesn't really matter what libs were party at fault
the point is that without redesigning apps and/or switching to another libs mere upgrade to excess unicode string won't bring anything
besides disaster
and no sane business will sponsor that

And I think I started programming earlier than you (more than 30 years
ago), so calling me a dilettante is, well, a hoot.

occasional hobby programming is quite different from producing mission critical systems serious business is dependent on
that didn't made you pro
try to start to earn your living with your software and become personally liable and responsible for you results to your clients and we'll
see what you're made of :)

--
Vladimir Ulchenko aka vavan
Rudy Velthuis (...


Posts: 7,731
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Oct 13, 2015 2:07 AM   in response to: Vladimir Ulchenko in response to: Vladimir Ulchenko
Vladimir Ulchenko wrote:

Indeed. But it was not me who said you used things the wrong way. It
was the writer of the library you criticized. So I seem to be in the

I believe devex CTO stopped writing their delphi libs years ago and
just doesn't know what I was talking about

Yeah, right. And you always get the crappy libraries.

Different realities, indeed.
--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"The most overlooked advantage of owning a computer is that if
they foul up there's no law against whacking them around a bit."
-- Eric Porterfield
Mike Margerum

Posts: 590
Registered: 12/1/99
Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Oct 13, 2015 5:04 AM   in response to: Vladimir Ulchenko in response to: Vladimir Ulchenko
occasional hobby programming is quite different from producing mission critical systems serious business is dependent on
that didn't made you pro
try to start to earn your living with your software and become personally liable and responsible for you results to your clients and we'll
see what you're made of :)

This. So much.

Until you have written mission critical apps that cost real $$$ if they
do not work, you really can't appreciate how important it is that your
vendors do not break your code under any circumstances. EMB had a
pretty good track record with this until recently.

Vladimir, stop banging your head against a wall. Rudy is a prolog
application that was written to argue with everyone on the NG so they
will leave and EMB can finally close this forum.
Vladimir Ulchenko

Posts: 248
Registered: 1/12/00
Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Oct 13, 2015 5:15 AM   in response to: Mike Margerum in response to: Mike Margerum
On Tue, 13 Oct 2015 05:04:56 -0700, Mike Margerum <noemail at me dot com> wrote:

Vladimir, stop banging your head against a wall. Rudy is a prolog
application that was written to argue with everyone on the NG so they

I stopped taking him seriously years ago but you just made my day, thank you :)

--
Vladimir Ulchenko aka vavan
Bruce McGee

Posts: 1,716
Registered: 9/30/99
Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Oct 13, 2015 5:17 AM   in response to: Mike Margerum in response to: Mike Margerum
Mike Margerum wrote:

occasional hobby programming is quite different from producing
mission critical systems serious business is dependent on that
didn't made you pro try to start to earn your living with your
software and become personally liable and responsible for you
results to your clients and we'll see what you're made of :)

This. So much.

He also suggested that Julian Bucknall didn't understand his own
product, so take his dismissals with a grain of salt.

Until you have written mission critical apps that cost real $$$ if
they do not work, you really can't appreciate how important it is
that your vendors do not break your code under any circumstances.
EMB had a pretty good track record with this until recently.

They still do.

I migrate software for each release.

And I'm not an "occasional hobby programmer".

--
Regards,
Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
Vladimir Ulchenko

Posts: 248
Registered: 1/12/00
Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Oct 13, 2015 5:20 AM   in response to: Bruce McGee in response to: Bruce McGee
On Tue, 13 Oct 2015 05:17:44 -0700, Bruce McGee <bmcgee at glooscap dot com> wrote:

He also suggested that Julian Bucknall didn't understand his own

I didn't

They still do.

I migrate software for each release.

do you like the pain? :)

--
Vladimir Ulchenko aka vavan
Bruce McGee

Posts: 1,716
Registered: 9/30/99
Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Oct 13, 2015 5:30 AM   in response to: Vladimir Ulchenko in response to: Vladimir Ulchenko
Vladimir Ulchenko wrote:

On Tue, 13 Oct 2015 05:17:44 -0700, Bruce McGee <bmcgee at glooscap dot com>
wrote:

He also suggested that Julian Bucknall didn't understand his own

I didn't

You didn't write the following about Julian?

nobody can know every aspect of devex libs, including CTO
it's end users who suffer and report their bugs

And this to Rudy?

you know nothing about devex libs, their working modes, bugs and
problems, yet dare to open your mouth and judge in your typical way,
not surprised ;)

Seems pretty dismissive to me.

I migrate software for each release.

do you like the pain? :)

No pain.

Some (very) occasional changes, but migration is almost always really
smooth.

The biggest issue I've had recently was when the FireDAC components
were renamed.

I made the changes manually, and it took about an hour, including
testing.

There are benefits to refactoring code for maintainability.

--
Regards,
Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
Vladimir Ulchenko

Posts: 248
Registered: 1/12/00
Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Oct 13, 2015 5:40 AM   in response to: Bruce McGee in response to: Bruce McGee
On Tue, 13 Oct 2015 05:30:42 -0700, Bruce McGee <bmcgee at glooscap dot com> wrote:

You didn't write the following about Julian?

can't you see the difference between "understand his own product" and "know every aspect"?
feel free no to answer

anyway we digressed and I didn't want to name and discuss any specific libs because it isn't my point

Seems pretty dismissive to me.

truth is scary? :)

Some (very) occasional changes, but migration is almost always really
smooth.

you never hit by regression? oh lucky you

--
Vladimir Ulchenko aka vavan
Bruce McGee

Posts: 1,716
Registered: 9/30/99
Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Oct 13, 2015 5:45 AM   in response to: Vladimir Ulchenko in response to: Vladimir Ulchenko
Vladimir Ulchenko wrote:

On Tue, 13 Oct 2015 05:30:42 -0700, Bruce McGee <bmcgee at glooscap dot com>
wrote:

You didn't write the following about Julian?

can't you see the difference between "understand his own product" and
"know every aspect"?

I suggest that he might have a better handle on the product and this
particular criticism than you do.

feel free no to answer

I don't mind.

Seems pretty dismissive to me.

truth is scary? :)

So is made up stuff. It's called FUD.

you never hit by regression? oh lucky you

Luck isn't a big factor here.

"The harder I work, the luckier I get."

--
Regards,
Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
david hoke

Posts: 616
Registered: 2/9/07
Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Oct 13, 2015 5:57 AM   in response to: Bruce McGee in response to: Bruce McGee
Bruce McGee wrote:

you never hit by regression? oh lucky you

Luck isn't a big factor here.

"The harder I work, the luckier I get."

Is that not a non sequitur?

I fail to see how hard anyone works has anything to do with being
affected by a regression in code/tools that they use but have
absolutely no direct control over.
Bruce McGee

Posts: 1,716
Registered: 9/30/99
Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Oct 13, 2015 6:10 AM   in response to: david hoke in response to: david hoke
david hoke wrote:

Bruce McGee wrote:

you never hit by regression? oh lucky you

Luck isn't a big factor here.

"The harder I work, the luckier I get."

Is that not a non sequitur?

I fail to see how hard anyone works has anything to do with being
affected by a regression in code/tools that they use but have
absolutely no direct control over.

Not really.

It's a reference back to the idea that there's a certain amount of
value in refactoring and keeping my code clean and maintainable.
Especially for long lived projects.

I think of it as working clean. A friend of mine refers to it as not
accumulating technical debt.

One example: If Borland/Embarcadero suggests avoiding a certain
practice because it might cause trouble later on, paying attention
might help avoid some pain (and risk) down the road.

--
Regards,
Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
david hoke

Posts: 616
Registered: 2/9/07
Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Oct 13, 2015 6:19 AM   in response to: Bruce McGee in response to: Bruce McGee
Bruce McGee wrote:

david hoke wrote:

Bruce McGee wrote:

you never hit by regression? oh lucky you

Luck isn't a big factor here.

"The harder I work, the luckier I get."

Is that not a non sequitur?

I fail to see how hard anyone works has anything to do with being
affected by a regression in code/tools that they use but have
absolutely no direct control over.

Not really.
<snip>
I think of it as working clean. A friend of mine refers to it as not
accumulating technical debt.
<snip>

So, you're saying that keeping your code clean, avoids being affected
by any regressions (i.e. bugs that were not previously present), that
toolset may acquire in subsequent releases?

Have you had sufficient coffee yet today?

If so, then what am I not understanding?
Because I find that rather unbelievable...
Vladimir Ulchenko

Posts: 248
Registered: 1/12/00
Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Oct 13, 2015 6:27 AM   in response to: david hoke in response to: david hoke
On Tue, 13 Oct 2015 06:19:20 -0700, david hoke <dhoke@east-shore.com> wrote:

So, you're saying that keeping your code clean, avoids being affected
by any regressions (i.e. bugs that were not previously present), that
toolset may acquire in subsequent releases?

Have you had sufficient coffee yet today?

If so, then what am I not understanding?
Because I find that rather unbelievable...

you're not alone and I decided that I'm fed up with this great thread :)

--
Vladimir Ulchenko aka vavan
Bruce McGee

Posts: 1,716
Registered: 9/30/99
Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Oct 13, 2015 6:33 AM   in response to: Vladimir Ulchenko in response to: Vladimir Ulchenko
Vladimir Ulchenko wrote:

you're not alone and I decided that I'm fed up with this great thread
:)

Yet you keep posting.

--
Regards,
Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
Vladimir Ulchenko

Posts: 248
Registered: 1/12/00
Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Oct 13, 2015 6:52 AM   in response to: Bruce McGee in response to: Bruce McGee
On Tue, 13 Oct 2015 06:33:36 -0700, Bruce McGee <bmcgee at glooscap dot com> wrote:

Yet you keep posting.

I'm sorry I'll try not to reply to you anymore ;)

--
Vladimir Ulchenko aka vavan
Bruce McGee

Posts: 1,716
Registered: 9/30/99
Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Oct 13, 2015 7:57 AM   in response to: Vladimir Ulchenko in response to: Vladimir Ulchenko
Vladimir Ulchenko wrote:

On Tue, 13 Oct 2015 06:33:36 -0700, Bruce McGee <bmcgee at glooscap dot com>
wrote:

Yet you keep posting.

I'm sorry I'll try not to reply to you anymore ;)

We'll see...

--
Regards,
Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
Bruce McGee

Posts: 1,716
Registered: 9/30/99
Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Oct 13, 2015 6:29 AM   in response to: david hoke in response to: david hoke
david hoke wrote:

Bruce McGee wrote:

david hoke wrote:

Bruce McGee wrote:

you never hit by regression? oh lucky you

Luck isn't a big factor here.

"The harder I work, the luckier I get."

Is that not a non sequitur?

I fail to see how hard anyone works has anything to do with being
affected by a regression in code/tools that they use but have
absolutely no direct control over.

Not really.
<snip>
I think of it as working clean. A friend of mine refers to it as not
accumulating technical debt.
<snip>

So, you're saying that keeping your code clean, avoids being affected
by any regressions (i.e. bugs that were not previously present), that
toolset may acquire in subsequent releases?

I'm saying that keeping my code clean and trying not to do dumb things
makes migration much easier.

Have you had sufficient coffee yet today?

In the process...

If so, then what am I not understanding?
Because I find that rather unbelievable...

If I don't have to run around putting out fires caused by easily
avoidable problems, it leaves more time for other things. For example,
fixing the occasional problem that's outside of my control.

But to be honest, I don't remember the last big thing I ran in to like
this. I'm sure there's been something, but it didn't cause big enough
of a problem to make much of an impression.

Lucky me.

--
Regards,
Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
Rudy Velthuis (...


Posts: 7,731
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Oct 13, 2015 9:43 AM   in response to: Vladimir Ulchenko in response to: Vladimir Ulchenko
Vladimir Ulchenko wrote:

On Tue, 13 Oct 2015 05:30:42 -0700, Bruce McGee <bmcgee at glooscap dot com>
wrote:

You didn't write the following about Julian?

can't you see the difference between "understand his own product" and
"know every aspect"?

You are saying he doesn't fully understand his own product.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Why do we kill people who are killing people to show that
killing people is wrong?"
-- Holly Near
Mark Marks

Posts: 269
Registered: 9/11/00
Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Oct 13, 2015 2:16 PM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
"Why do we kill people who are killing people to show that
killing people is wrong?"
-- Holly Near

Most ignorant statement I have read in long spell.
Dan Barclay

Posts: 889
Registered: 11/9/03
Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Oct 13, 2015 4:47 PM   in response to: Mark Marks in response to: Mark Marks
Mark Marks wrote:
"Why do we kill people who are killing people to show that
killing people is wrong?"
-- Holly Near

Most ignorant statement I have read in long spell.

I have suggested to those using that file that they should get rid of it. Most likely it's from the Xananews tag file.

Report the post/poster when you see that kind of stuff. It doesn't belong here, and I came close to erasing the entire Xananews on account of it. Instead I only deleted the file.

Dan
Rudy Velthuis (...


Posts: 7,731
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Oct 13, 2015 11:10 PM   in response to: Dan Barclay in response to: Dan Barclay
Dan Barclay wrote:

Report the post/poster when you see that kind of stuff. It doesn't
belong here, and I came close to erasing the entire Xananews on
account of it. Instead I only deleted the file.

You can have your own sig file. But currently, they seem to distribute
the one from my website.

Noting to get your chuddies in a knot about.
--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Cholesterol is your natural defence against excessive
circulation of blood, which can carry venoms, poisons and other
toxins around your body." -- Michael Warner, in bpot
Rudy Velthuis (...


Posts: 7,731
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Oct 13, 2015 11:06 PM   in response to: Mark Marks in response to: Mark Marks
Mark Marks wrote:

"Why do we kill people who are killing people to show that
killing people is wrong?"
-- Holly Near

Most ignorant statement I have read in long spell.

Are you trying to nitpick, but can only find something in my signature,
or what is this?

And it is not ignorant at all.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"It is part of the general pattern of misguided policy that our
country is now geared to an arms economy which was bred in an
artificially induced psychosis of war hysteria and nurtured
upon an incessant propaganda of fear."
-- General Douglas MacArthur
Dan Barclay

Posts: 889
Registered: 11/9/03
Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Oct 14, 2015 8:18 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:

Mark Marks wrote:

"Why do we kill people who are killing people to show that
killing people is wrong?"
-- Holly Near

Most ignorant statement I have read in long spell.

Are you trying to nitpick, but can only find something in my
signature, or what is this?

And it is not ignorant at all.

You are the one that posted it, and it does not belong here. You,
personally, are in control of the content of your posts and are
responsible for them.

That you are apparently a moderator does not excuse your statements,
here or in the past. If you post something political here, it does not
belong and others can (and should) complain. That is, unless you want
the rest of us to follow your example.

Dan
Rudy Velthuis (...


Posts: 7,731
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Oct 15, 2015 4:14 AM   in response to: Dan Barclay in response to: Dan Barclay
Dan Barclay wrote:

That is, unless you want the rest of us to follow your example.

If you only put quotes in your signature, no problem.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"If you want to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first
create the universe." -- Carl Sagan
Dan Barclay

Posts: 889
Registered: 11/9/03
Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Oct 15, 2015 9:58 AM   in response to: Dan Barclay in response to: Dan Barclay
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:

Dan Barclay wrote:

You are the one that posted it, and it does not belong here.

It is only a sig. <shrug>

So, you are saying that the policy of this newsgroup is that I can post
anything I please in the sig... without being held responsibile.

Wow.

Anything?

Really?

How useful!

Or, does that only apply to Special People like yourself?

Strange, I always held the view that when I posted something, I was
responsible.

Dan
Rudy Velthuis (...


Posts: 7,731
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Oct 15, 2015 10:47 AM   in response to: Dan Barclay in response to: Dan Barclay
Dan Barclay wrote:

Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:

Dan Barclay wrote:

You are the one that posted it, and it does not belong here.

It is only a sig. <shrug>

So, you are saying that the policy of this newsgroup is that I can
post anything I please in the sig...

No, you can't. Neither can I. But I don't think that any of the ones I
posted are a problem. I already removed the problematic ones.
--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"In the 1980s capitalism triumphed over communism. In the 1990s
it triumphed over democracy."
-- David Korten
Brandon Staggs

Posts: 683
Registered: 3/3/01
Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Oct 15, 2015 5:15 PM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
"Rudy Velthuis" wrote on Thu, 15 Oct 2015 10:47:26 -0700:

No, you can't. Neither can I. But I don't think that any of the ones I
posted are a problem. I already removed the problematic ones.
--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"In the 1980s capitalism triumphed over communism. In the 1990s
it triumphed over democracy."
-- David Korten

And more idiotic inflammatory (and ignorant) quotes in your sig, right
after having "removed the problematic ones." Why not just remove all
of the political, religious, and philosophically charged quotes from
your sig used here? Problem solved. You can replace them with quotes
about Unicode and how 8 bit strings weren't removed from mobile.

--
Brandon Staggs
StudyLamp Software LLC
http://www.studylamp.com
Dominique Willems

Posts: 591
Registered: 10/26/99
Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Oct 15, 2015 5:57 PM   in response to: Brandon Staggs in response to: Brandon Staggs
Brandon Staggs wrote:
And more idiotic inflammatory (and ignorant) quotes in your sig

You think so? I always thought the sig quotes were the only thing worth
reading. ;)
Mark Marks

Posts: 269
Registered: 9/11/00
Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Oct 15, 2015 6:39 PM   in response to: Dominique Willems in response to: Dominique Willems
You think so? I always thought the sig quotes were the only thing
worth reading. ;)

HA
Dalija Prasnikar

Posts: 2,325
Registered: 11/9/99
Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Oct 16, 2015 1:29 AM   in response to: Dominique Willems in response to: Dominique Willems
Dominique Willems wrote:
Brandon Staggs wrote:
And more idiotic inflammatory (and ignorant) quotes in your sig

You think so? I always thought the sig quotes were the only thing worth
reading. ;)

Be careful, or you might start a sig war here ;-)

--
Dalija Prasnikar
Dominique Willems

Posts: 591
Registered: 10/26/99
Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Oct 16, 2015 2:28 AM   in response to: Dalija Prasnikar in response to: Dalija Prasnikar
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:
Be careful, or you might start a sig war here ;-)

Somehow that sounds a bit Star Warsy.
Dalija Prasnikar

Posts: 2,325
Registered: 11/9/99
Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Oct 16, 2015 11:36 AM   in response to: Dominique Willems in response to: Dominique Willems
Dominique Willems wrote:
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:
Be careful, or you might start a sig war here ;-)

Somehow that sounds a bit Star Warsy.

Yeah, we'll have bunch of sequels and prequels ;-)

--
Dalija Prasnikar
Rudy Velthuis (...


Posts: 7,731
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Oct 19, 2015 12:17 AM   in response to: Dominique Willems in response to: Dominique Willems
Dominique Willems wrote:

Brandon Staggs wrote:
And more idiotic inflammatory (and ignorant) quotes in your sig

You think so? I always thought the sig quotes were the only thing
worth reading. ;)

Hmmm... don't interfere. This is a concerted attack on me. <g>
--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"I do not believe that any type of religion should ever be
introduced into the public schools of the United States."
-- Thomas Edison
Mike Margerum

Posts: 590
Registered: 12/1/99
Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Oct 15, 2015 7:10 PM   in response to: Brandon Staggs in response to: Brandon Staggs
your sig used here? Problem solved. You can replace them with quotes
about Unicode and how 8 bit strings weren't removed from mobile.

I'd rather read offensive quotes.

I mean is anyone seriously getting offended by sig quotes?
Dominique Willems

Posts: 591
Registered: 10/26/99
Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Oct 16, 2015 1:36 AM   in response to: Mike Margerum in response to: Mike Margerum
Mike Margerum wrote:
I mean is anyone seriously getting offended by sig quotes?

Only those where the shoe fits. ;)
Brandon Staggs

Posts: 683
Registered: 3/3/01
Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Oct 16, 2015 6:20 AM   in response to: Mike Margerum in response to: Mike Margerum
"Mike Margerum" wrote on Thu, 15 Oct 2015 19:10:01 -0700:

I mean is anyone seriously getting offended by sig quotes?

Maybe someone, not I.

The problem is that political discussions are SUPPOSED to go in
.off-topic but Rudy has decided his signature file doesn't count.

I don't really care, except that people are told to take their
off-topic conversations elsewhere, while Rudy continues to make his
remarks through his sigfile.

--
Brandon Staggs
StudyLamp Software LLC
http://www.studylamp.com
Mike Margerum

Posts: 590
Registered: 12/1/99
Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Oct 17, 2015 10:59 AM   in response to: Brandon Staggs in response to: Brandon Staggs
I don't really care, except that people are told to take their
off-topic conversations elsewhere, while Rudy continues to make his
remarks through his sigfile.

Good point he should disable it since he's always so keen to deem other
people's conversations off topic.

I couldn't care less about anyone's politics. I'm here to talk about
Delphi and CS in general.
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Oct 19, 2015 1:47 AM   in response to: Mike Margerum in response to: Mike Margerum
Mike Margerum wrote:

I don't really care, except that people are told to take their
off-topic conversations elsewhere, while Rudy continues to make his
remarks through his sigfile.

Good point he should disable it since he's always so keen to deem
other people's conversations off topic.

WTF? There is so much far more off-topic and - to me - offensive
political stuff posted here, even by people who now complain about my
quotes, and yes, I could have cancelled all of that. I didn't. So no,
that is not what I do.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Truthful words are not beautiful; beautiful words are not
truthful. Good words are not persuasive; persuasive words are
not good."
-- Lao tzu
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Oct 19, 2015 12:19 AM   in response to: Brandon Staggs in response to: Brandon Staggs
Brandon Staggs wrote:

"Mike Margerum" wrote on Thu, 15 Oct 2015 19:10:01 -0700:

I mean is anyone seriously getting offended by sig quotes?

Maybe someone, not I.

The problem is that political discussions are SUPPOSED to go in
.off-topic but Rudy has decided his signature file doesn't count.

I am not discussing any of the quotes. Others are. I don't take them
seriously, I merely quote what others have said.
--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Woman was God's second mistake."
-- Friedrich Nietzsche (1844-1900)
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Oct 19, 2015 1:54 AM   in response to: Brandon Staggs in response to: Brandon Staggs
Brandon Staggs wrote:

I don't really care, except that people are told to take their
off-topic conversations elsewhere

When was the last time that happened? Many years ago.

And a full blown discussion in a large off-topic subthread is not the
same as a simple quote. Discussions should be moved. Quotes are just
quotes, so don't get your knickers in a knot about them. I have a
feeling that my quotes are not what really bothers you.

There have been large political threads recently, and they were started
by some of those who now complain about my quotes. Sheesh!
--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"If you would be a real seeker after truth, it is necessary
that at least once in your life you doubt, as far as possible,
all things."
-- Rene Descartes
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Oct 19, 2015 12:18 AM   in response to: Mike Margerum in response to: Mike Margerum
Mike Margerum wrote:

I'd rather read offensive quotes.

I mean is anyone seriously getting offended by sig quotes?

Exactly.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Is it not a strange blindness on our part to teach publicly the
techniques of warfare and to reward with medals those who prove
to be the most adroit killers?" -- Marquis de Sade
Dalija Prasnikar

Posts: 2,325
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Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Oct 16, 2015 1:27 AM   in response to: Brandon Staggs in response to: Brandon Staggs
Brandon Staggs wrote:
"Rudy Velthuis" wrote on Thu, 15 Oct 2015 10:47:26 -0700:

No, you can't. Neither can I. But I don't think that any of the ones I
posted are a problem. I already removed the problematic ones.
--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"In the 1980s capitalism triumphed over communism. In the 1990s
it triumphed over democracy."
-- David Korten

And more idiotic inflammatory (and ignorant) quotes in your sig, right
after having "removed the problematic ones." Why not just remove all
of the political, religious, and philosophically charged quotes from
your sig used here? Problem solved. You can replace them with quotes
about Unicode and how 8 bit strings weren't removed from mobile.

ROFL

--
Dalija Prasnikar
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Oct 19, 2015 1:44 AM   in response to: Brandon Staggs in response to: Brandon Staggs
Brandon Staggs wrote:

-- David Korten

And more idiotic inflammatory (and ignorant) quotes in your sig,

They are quotes. They are snippets of reality. If you don't agree with
what they say (I myself don't agree with quite a few of them and they
are in the file just to show their silliness) then ignore them.

There is nothing inflammatory about them, unless you think there might
be some truth in them. The fact that you quote them duplicates them. <g>

Why on earth does this bother you, all of a sudden? Trying to find
fault with me because I do not always support your opinion?
--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Pity the warrior that kills all his foe."
-- Star Trek
Brandon Staggs

Posts: 683
Registered: 3/3/01
Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Oct 19, 2015 6:38 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
"Rudy Velthuis" wrote on Mon, 19 Oct 2015 01:44:57 -0700:

Why on earth does this bother you, all of a sudden?

"Bother" is overstating it. I don't mind off-topic discussions that
evolve naturally from on-topic posts. That's just conversation. But
you put these quotes into every topic -- topics that are just about
Delphi and could stay that way -- for no benefit to anyone, and they
can only serve to generate more off-topic discussion. And then you
suggest to people that they move off-topic discussions to other
groups, as if those discussions are any less off-topic than the quotes
you stick in your sigs. No, you are not quick to cancel posts, and
that is appreciated.

--
Brandon Staggs
StudyLamp Software LLC
http://www.studylamp.com
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Oct 13, 2015 9:41 AM   in response to: Vladimir Ulchenko in response to: Vladimir Ulchenko
Vladimir Ulchenko wrote:

On Tue, 13 Oct 2015 05:17:44 -0700, Bruce McGee <bmcgee at glooscap dot com>
wrote:

He also suggested that Julian Bucknall didn't understand his own

I didn't

Yes, you did. Would you like me to quote it?
--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people
are conservatives" -- John Stuart Mill
Nick Hodges

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Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Oct 15, 2015 10:50 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:

"Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people
are conservatives" -- John Stuart Mill

This one is okay?

--
Nick
Delphi Programming is Fun
Bruce McGee

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Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Oct 15, 2015 11:07 AM   in response to: Nick Hodges in response to: Nick Hodges
Nick Hodges wrote:

Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:

"Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people
are conservatives" -- John Stuart Mill

This one is okay?

Do you really want an answer?

--
Regards,
Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
Nick Hodges

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Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Oct 15, 2015 11:18 AM   in response to: Bruce McGee in response to: Bruce McGee
Bruce McGee wrote:

Do you really want an answer?

Sure, I'd love to see Rudy say that more or less calling a large swath
of people stupid is okay.


--
Nick
Delphi Programming is Fun

Bruce McGee

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Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Oct 15, 2015 11:47 AM   in response to: Nick Hodges in response to: Nick Hodges
Nick Hodges wrote:

Bruce McGee wrote:

Do you really want an answer?

Sure, I'd love to see Rudy say that more or less calling a large swath
of people stupid is okay.

I think political discussions belong elsewhere.

--
Regards,
Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Oct 19, 2015 12:23 AM   in response to: Nick Hodges in response to: Nick Hodges
Nick Hodges wrote:

Bruce McGee wrote:

Do you really want an answer?

Sure, I'd love to see Rudy say that more or less calling a large swath
of people stupid is okay.

No one did, not even the quote. It said that most stupid people are
conservatives, not that conservatives are stupid. Big difference.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Theory is when you know something, but it doesn't work. Practice
is when something works, but you don't know why. Programmers combine
theory and practice: Nothing works and they don't know why."
Nick Hodges

Posts: 2,414
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Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Oct 19, 2015 7:53 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:

No one did, not even the quote. It said that most stupid people are
conservatives, not that conservatives are stupid. Big difference.

Rudy, I'm not going to argue with you. Your quote was insulting, and I
believe it was meant to be.

You can split hairs if you want, but that sig was out of line.

--
Nick
Delphi Programming is Fun
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Oct 19, 2015 1:55 AM   in response to: Nick Hodges in response to: Nick Hodges
Nick Hodges wrote:

Bruce McGee wrote:

Do you really want an answer?

Sure, I'd love to see Rudy say that more or less calling a large swath
of people stupid is okay.

Rudy didn't say that. And the quote in his sig didn't say that either.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"The only way to combat criminals is by not voting for them."
-- Dayton Allen
Nick Hodges

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Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Oct 19, 2015 7:54 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:

Rudy didn't say that. And the quote in his sig didn't say that either.

I know it's pointless to tell you to get off your high horse, so I
won't.

And I know it's pointless to try to convince you that, despite several
people saying so, your sig was insulting.

You are impervious to reason, so I won't try.

--
Nick
Delphi Programming is Fun
Dan Barclay

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Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Oct 15, 2015 11:42 AM   in response to: Bruce McGee in response to: Bruce McGee
Bruce McGee wrote:
Nick Hodges wrote:

Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:

"Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people
are conservatives" -- John Stuart Mill

This one is okay?

Do you really want an answer?

I'd like you to say whether the topic and post is legitimate for this newsgroup.

Dan
Bruce McGee

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Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Oct 15, 2015 11:46 AM   in response to: Dan Barclay in response to: Dan Barclay
Dan Barclay wrote:

Bruce McGee wrote:
Nick Hodges wrote:

Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:

"Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid
people are conservatives" -- John Stuart Mill

This one is okay?

Do you really want an answer?

I'd like you to say whether the topic and post is legitimate for this
newsgroup.

I didn't have any luck stemming the climate change discussion, so I
doubt my opinion on this would do much good, either.

--
Regards,
Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
Nick Hodges

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Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Oct 15, 2015 12:09 PM   in response to: Bruce McGee in response to: Bruce McGee
Bruce McGee wrote:

I didn't have any luck stemming the climate change discussion, so I
doubt my opinion on this would do much good, either.

I don't much care if we have a climate discussion. I do care if I or
others are directly insulted.

--
Nick
Delphi Programming is Fun
Bruce McGee

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Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Oct 15, 2015 12:26 PM   in response to: Nick Hodges in response to: Nick Hodges
Nick Hodges wrote:

Bruce McGee wrote:

I didn't have any luck stemming the climate change discussion, so I
doubt my opinion on this would do much good, either.

I don't much care if we have a climate discussion. I do care if I or
others are directly insulted.

That's the problem. Someone is always going to get their feelings hurt.

Politics should be discussed elsewhere.

--
Regards,
Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
Dan Barclay

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Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Oct 15, 2015 4:51 PM   in response to: Bruce McGee in response to: Bruce McGee
Bruce McGee wrote:

Nick Hodges wrote:

Bruce McGee wrote:

I didn't have any luck stemming the climate change discussion, so
I doubt my opinion on this would do much good, either.

I don't much care if we have a climate discussion. I do care if I
or others are directly insulted.

That's the problem. Someone is always going to get their feelings
hurt.

Politics should be discussed elsewhere.

I agree. I don't approve of those kinds of posts and have not been
making them, though I am quite capable.

What is so difficult about saying that you disapprove of something?
Have we got to the point that we think it is our obligation to tolerate
statements, or behavior, that is out of line?

I have not. YMMV.

Dan
Bruce McGee

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Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Oct 16, 2015 3:56 AM   in response to: Dan Barclay in response to: Dan Barclay
Dan Barclay wrote:

What is so difficult about saying that you disapprove of something?

I'm trying to refrain from getting in to this particular slap fight.

You should, too.

And if I did answer, I'd go out of my way to not get cornered in to
answering one self serving question.

So maybe we should drop it and talk more about Delphi here.

"I never believe that the options available to a creative person are
ever limited by the choices offered by a philosopher"
- Neil deGrasse Tyson

--
Regards,
Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
Dan Barclay

Posts: 889
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Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Oct 16, 2015 10:52 AM   in response to: Bruce McGee in response to: Bruce McGee
Bruce McGee wrote:

Dan Barclay wrote:

What is so difficult about saying that you disapprove of something?

I'm trying to refrain from getting in to this particular slap fight.

You should, too.

And if I did answer, I'd go out of my way to not get cornered in to
answering one self serving question.

So maybe we should drop it and talk more about Delphi here.

"I never believe that the options available to a creative person are
ever limited by the choices offered by a philosopher"
- Neil deGrasse Tyson

The issue is:
(1) whether or not you disapprove of off topic posts here.
(2) whether you believe the content of sig lines "doesn't count"

What is self serving about that issue?

It is not unreasonable to ask one of the people who affects and/or
controls in some way what is legitimate.

More to the point, I have a ton of stuff I can post in my sig line that
is factual and non personal... but completely off topic and (I think)
does not belong here. So I don't do it. If it does belong here, fine,
maybe my assessment was wrong.

If either of us, but particularly an "insider", chooses not to take a
position and correct misbehavior then it will continue. More, I can
assure you, it will get worse.

Dan

Bruce McGee

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Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Oct 16, 2015 11:42 AM   in response to: Dan Barclay in response to: Dan Barclay
Dan Barclay wrote:

The issue is:

And here we go...

Please take note as I continue to refrain...

--
Regards,
Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
Bruce McGee

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Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Oct 16, 2015 11:46 AM   in response to: Dan Barclay in response to: Dan Barclay
Dan Barclay wrote:

Sigh...

If either of us, but particularly an "insider", chooses not to take a
position and correct misbehavior then it will continue. More, I can
assure you, it will get worse.

What makes you think I could affect things? I can't even yell at trolls
without someone taking offence.

But I'll try...

Rudy,
Please try not to provoke conservatives in this group. It is
(apparently) a disproportionate distraction.

Thanks

--
Regards,
Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
Nick Hodges

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Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Oct 16, 2015 1:33 PM   in response to: Bruce McGee in response to: Bruce McGee
Bruce McGee wrote:

Please try not to provoke conservatives in this group. It is
(apparently) a disproportionate distraction.

LOL -- apparently you can't even ask him to stop without doing it. ;-)

--
Nick
Delphi Programming is Fun
Bruce McGee

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Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Oct 16, 2015 1:40 PM   in response to: Nick Hodges in response to: Nick Hodges
Nick Hodges wrote:

Bruce McGee wrote:

Please try not to provoke conservatives in this group. It is
(apparently) a disproportionate distraction.

LOL -- apparently you can't even ask him to stop without doing it.
;-)

Think of it as an equal opportunity jab at everyone.

--
Regards,
Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
Bruce McGee

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Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Oct 16, 2015 5:06 PM   in response to: Bruce McGee in response to: Bruce McGee
Bruce McGee wrote:

Nick Hodges wrote:

Bruce McGee wrote:

Please try not to provoke conservatives in this group. It is
(apparently) a disproportionate distraction.

LOL -- apparently you can't even ask him to stop without doing it.
;-)

Think of it as an equal opportunity jab at everyone.

Good humoured jab.

Everyone needs to lighten up.

--
Regards,
Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
Nick Hodges

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Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Oct 17, 2015 5:13 AM   in response to: Bruce McGee in response to: Bruce McGee
Bruce McGee wrote:

Everyone needs to lighten up.

And Rudy needs to stop insulting people.

--
Nick
Delphi Programming is Fun
Dalija Prasnikar

Posts: 2,325
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Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Oct 17, 2015 10:41 AM   in response to: Nick Hodges in response to: Nick Hodges
Nick Hodges wrote:
Bruce McGee wrote:

Everyone needs to lighten up.

And Rudy needs to stop insulting people.

Rudy insulted someone? As far as I can tell that was Terry Pratchett :)

--
Dalija Prasnikar
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Oct 19, 2015 2:25 AM   in response to: Dalija Prasnikar in response to: Dalija Prasnikar
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:

Nick Hodges wrote:
Bruce McGee wrote:

Everyone needs to lighten up.

And Rudy needs to stop insulting people.

Rudy insulted someone? As far as I can tell that was Terry Pratchett
:)

He also insulted my country, and it is still in my quotes. Pratchett
was a writer of comedy, so who takes things he said seriously should
check their sarcastometer.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp-posts...
for support rather than illumination."
-- Andrew Lang (1844-1912)
Bruce McGee

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Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Oct 17, 2015 12:20 PM   in response to: Nick Hodges in response to: Nick Hodges
Nick Hodges wrote:

Bruce McGee wrote:

Everyone needs to lighten up.

And Rudy needs to stop insulting people.

And everyone needs to stop trolling.

Or talking about climate change or Ayn Rand or whatever.

Let's talk about Delphi instead.

--
Regards,
Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
Asbjørn Heid

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Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Oct 17, 2015 3:10 PM   in response to: Bruce McGee in response to: Bruce McGee
Bruce McGee wrote:

Let's talk about Delphi instead.

There's hardly enough controversy for this forum for that...

- Asbjørn
Bruce McGee

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Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Oct 17, 2015 3:39 PM   in response to: Asbjørn Heid in response to: Asbjørn Heid
Asbjørn Heid wrote:

Bruce McGee wrote:

Let's talk about Delphi instead.

There's hardly enough controversy for this forum for that...

Then I'll try to make it controversial.

--
Regards,
Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
Bruce McGee

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Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Oct 17, 2015 3:47 PM   in response to: Bruce McGee in response to: Bruce McGee
Bruce McGee wrote:

Asbjørn Heid wrote:

Bruce McGee wrote:

Let's talk about Delphi instead.

There's hardly enough controversy for this forum for that...

Then I'll try to make it controversial.

Saying good things about Delphi, for example.

That usually gets someone's goat.

--
Regards,
Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
Brandon Staggs

Posts: 683
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Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Oct 17, 2015 4:59 PM   in response to: Bruce McGee in response to: Bruce McGee
"Bruce McGee" wrote on Sat, 17 Oct 2015 15:47:12 -0700:

Saying good things about Delphi, for example.

LOL

--
Brandon Staggs
StudyLamp Software LLC
http://www.studylamp.com
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Oct 19, 2015 1:58 AM   in response to: Nick Hodges in response to: Nick Hodges
Nick Hodges wrote:

Bruce McGee wrote:

Everyone needs to lighten up.

And Rudy needs to stop insulting people.

Whom did Rudy insult?

If you think the quote I posted insulted conservatives then you did not
understand it and the quote was apparently right. <g>

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Usually when people are sad, they don't do anything. They just
cry over their condition. But when they get angry, they bring
about a change."
-- Malcolm X
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Oct 19, 2015 2:22 AM   in response to: Bruce McGee in response to: Bruce McGee
Bruce McGee wrote:

Rudy,
Please try not to provoke conservatives in this group. It is
(apparently) a disproportionate distraction.

LOL! Some here are good at indignation. <g>

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"He who knows nothing is closer to the truth than he whose mind
is filled with falsehoods and errors."
-- Thomas Jefferson
Eivind Bakkestuen


Posts: 447
Registered: 5/8/01
Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Oct 15, 2015 5:14 PM   in response to: Nick Hodges in response to: Nick Hodges
I don't much care if we have a climate discussion. I do care if I or
others are directly insulted.

Take it up with John Stuart Mill.

I'm sure we are all posting things at are insulting to somebody out
there. For instance, I'm sure there are people out there who do
Delphi programming, but who would strenuously deny that there was any
fun in it.

--
Eivind Bakkestuen [NDD]
Nick Hodges

Posts: 2,414
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Oct 16, 2015 6:42 AM   in response to: Eivind Bakkestuen in response to: Eivind Bakkestuen
Eivind Bakkestuen wrote:

Take it up with John Stuart Mill.

No, I'm taking it up with Rudy. He's being insulting and he doesn't
care. That's wrong.

I'm sure we are all posting things at are insulting to somebody out
there. For instance, I'm sure there are people out there who do
Delphi programming, but who would strenuously deny that there was any
fun in it.

But they can't be insulted by it, because it isn't a statement of a
personal nature.

--
Nick
Delphi Programming is Fun
Eivind Bakkestuen


Posts: 447
Registered: 5/8/01
Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Oct 16, 2015 5:10 PM   in response to: Nick Hodges in response to: Nick Hodges
But they can't be insulted by it, because it isn't a statement of a
personal nature.

Sorry, but that doesn't fly. Who are you to tell somebody what they
should perceive as personal or not? :) It's simply not your call to
make.

If your statement (sig) resonates with somebody, it has the potential
to be perceived as something personal.

If your statement (sig) was so bland as to not resonate with anybody,
why have it in the first place?

Hey, how about a sig related challenge? Before the web was king (ie
long long time ago), I used to have a sig that would likely have
resonated with most americans (and others too), and not necessarily in
a good way. If you can manage to search up my sig, let me know how
personal it was.

--
Eivind Bakkestuen [NDD]

Rudy Velthuis (...


Posts: 7,731
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Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Oct 19, 2015 1:59 AM   in response to: Nick Hodges in response to: Nick Hodges
Nick Hodges wrote:

Eivind Bakkestuen wrote:

Take it up with John Stuart Mill.

No, I'm taking it up with Rudy. He's being insulting

No, I am not, objectively spoken. I can't help if it you misunderatand
what was quoted.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"The difference between pornography and erotica is lighting."
-- Gloria Leonard
Dan Barclay

Posts: 889
Registered: 11/9/03
Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Oct 15, 2015 4:49 PM   in response to: Bruce McGee in response to: Bruce McGee
Bruce McGee wrote:

Dan Barclay wrote:

Bruce McGee wrote:
Nick Hodges wrote:

Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:

"Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid
people are conservatives" -- John Stuart Mill

This one is okay?

Do you really want an answer?

I'd like you to say whether the topic and post is legitimate for
this newsgroup.

I didn't have any luck stemming the climate change discussion, so I
doubt my opinion on this would do much good, either.

A response without an answer. Or, should I read that as you approve?

The question isn't complicated. Neither is the answer.

Dan
Bruce McGee

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Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Oct 16, 2015 3:50 AM   in response to: Dan Barclay in response to: Dan Barclay
Dan Barclay wrote:

Bruce McGee wrote:

Dan Barclay wrote:

Bruce McGee wrote:
Nick Hodges wrote:

Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:

"Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid
people are conservatives" -- John Stuart Mill

This one is okay?

Do you really want an answer?

I'd like you to say whether the topic and post is legitimate for
this newsgroup.

I didn't have any luck stemming the climate change discussion, so I
doubt my opinion on this would do much good, either.

A response without an answer. Or, should I read that as you approve?

The question isn't complicated. Neither is the answer.

Pressing me for an answer to your loaded question just continues this
off-topic discussion even further.

--
Regards,
Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
Van Swofford

Posts: 397
Registered: 6/28/03
Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Oct 15, 2015 12:07 PM   in response to: Nick Hodges in response to: Nick Hodges
Nick Hodges wrote:

Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:

"Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people
are conservatives" -- John Stuart Mill

This one is okay?

Of course, to a liberal. :-)

--
Cheers,
Van

"Good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad
judgment." - Will Rogers
Rudy Velthuis (...


Posts: 7,731
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Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Oct 19, 2015 12:22 AM   in response to: Nick Hodges in response to: Nick Hodges
Nick Hodges wrote:

Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:

"Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people
are conservatives" -- John Stuart Mill

This one is okay?

I only quote it. See for yourself what you think of it. I often quote
things to which I object, just to show the silliness of these
statements.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"I have often regretted my speech, never my silence."
-- Xenocrates (396-314 B.C.)
Brandon Staggs

Posts: 683
Registered: 3/3/01
Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Oct 19, 2015 6:40 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
"Rudy Velthuis" wrote on Mon, 19 Oct 2015 00:22:05 -0700:

I often quote
things to which I object, just to show the silliness of these
statements.

Me too. It's a basic feature of my newsreader.

--
Brandon Staggs
StudyLamp Software LLC
http://www.studylamp.com
Nick Hodges

Posts: 2,414
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Oct 19, 2015 8:13 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:

I only quote it.

So it's okay?

I give up. You rule the roost here, Rudy. You do what you please.
You'll quote whomever you like saying whatever you like. A polite,
reasonable person would say "Oh wow, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to
offend, I'll remove that quote.". But you, apparently, are neither.

Never mind that you offend customers, and drive them away. And yes, I
know people for whom this is true.

EMBT is apparently okay with your offensive behavior. I'm not even
going to bother complaining to them about you. I know others that
don't even bother to complain as well.

I should know better, really. People tell you to your face that you
are out of line, and you have always been utterly impervious to it.

--
Nick
Delphi Programming is Fun
Mike Margerum

Posts: 590
Registered: 12/1/99
Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Oct 13, 2015 7:34 AM   in response to: Bruce McGee in response to: Bruce McGee
EMB had a pretty good track record with this until recently.

They still do.

I migrate software for each release.

Glad it's working for you. XE8 broke ADO stuff for me. I use sequences
in SQL Server and some other things stopped working.

They break Firemonkey in just about every release. I'm done trying to
use Firemonkey in any capacity. I have to have mac and ipad support and
Firemonkey is not the answer.

I have the feeling XE10 is my last upgrade for a while. I'll keep SA
for now but i'm EOLing delphi for anything new.
Bruce McGee

Posts: 1,716
Registered: 9/30/99
Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Oct 13, 2015 8:02 AM   in response to: Mike Margerum in response to: Mike Margerum
Mike Margerum wrote:

EMB had a pretty good track record with this until recently.

They still do.

I migrate software for each release.

Glad it's working for you. XE8 broke ADO stuff for me. I use
sequences in SQL Server and some other things stopped working.

I used dbExpress and now FireDAC for MSSQL.

No problems to speak of. Except that FireDAC component renaming thing.

They break Firemonkey in just about every release. I'm done trying
to use Firemonkey in any capacity. I have to have mac and ipad
support and Firemonkey is not the answer.

FireMonkey actually improves in every release.

It suffers from what I'd describe as a shaky start, though.

I have the feeling XE10 is my last upgrade for a while. I'll keep
SA for now but i'm EOLing delphi for anything new.

If you're going to freeze on a given release, #10Seattle is a excellent
choice.

I suspect 10.1 will be even better, though.

--
Regards,
Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Oct 13, 2015 9:40 AM   in response to: Mike Margerum in response to: Mike Margerum
Mike Margerum wrote:

Vladimir, stop banging your head against a wall. Rudy is a prolog
application that was written to argue with everyone on the NG so they
will leave and EMB can finally close this forum.

LOL! If that is so, then I wonder why so many people are still here. <g>

But what code was broken?
--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"You have not converted a man because you have silenced him."
-- John Morley
Bruce McGee

Posts: 1,716
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Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Oct 12, 2015 8:53 AM   in response to: Vladimir Ulchenko in response to: Vladimir Ulchenko
Vladimir Ulchenko wrote:

On Mon, 12 Oct 2015 08:25:13 -0700, Bruce McGee <bmcgee at glooscap dot com>
wrote:

Keeping so many strings in memory that you worry about running out
of address space might be considered a questionable design decision.

life is tough and careless memory handling is commonplace of most
libs implementation (including standard vcl/rtl and thirdparties)

I doubt it's as widespread as that, but I've written some naive code of
my own.

I
already had to implement my own versions of some libs in order to
alleviate at least some memory related problems and push those limits
further

I also try to be less naive about my own code as time goes on.

--
Regards,
Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
Vladimir Ulchenko

Posts: 248
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Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Oct 12, 2015 11:48 PM   in response to: Bruce McGee in response to: Bruce McGee
On Mon, 12 Oct 2015 08:53:32 -0700, Bruce McGee <bmcgee at glooscap dot com> wrote:

I doubt it's as widespread as that, but I've written some naive code of

I believe only few libs won't exhibit similar problems under stress conditions

I also try to be less naive about my own code as time goes on.

unfortunately one cannot afford to use only his own libs free from such implementation defects
well, some brilliant developers can but I'm not one of them

--
Vladimir Ulchenko aka vavan
Bruce McGee

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Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Oct 13, 2015 2:41 AM   in response to: Vladimir Ulchenko in response to: Vladimir Ulchenko
Vladimir Ulchenko wrote:

On Mon, 12 Oct 2015 08:53:32 -0700, Bruce McGee <bmcgee at glooscap dot com>
wrote:

I doubt it's as widespread as that, but I've written some naive
code of

I believe only few libs won't exhibit similar problems under stress
conditions

Based on what exactly?

It isn't an exhaustive list, but most of the libraries I've used over
the years perform well under stress conditions.

I'm specifically thinking of server applications that "just work" for
months at a time.

--
Regards,
Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
Vladimir Ulchenko

Posts: 248
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Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Oct 13, 2015 2:57 AM   in response to: Bruce McGee in response to: Bruce McGee
On Tue, 13 Oct 2015 02:41:20 -0700, Bruce McGee <bmcgee at glooscap dot com> wrote:

Based on what exactly?

as I already explained as soon as I see thoughtless usage of memory structures growing using realloc based strategy I know that sooner or
later this place might become bottleneck under stress conditions during handling of large volumes of data

It isn't an exhaustive list, but most of the libraries I've used over
the years perform well under stress conditions.

may be you used really efficient libs or just didn't push them to their limits, who knows

I'm specifically thinking of server applications that "just work" for
months at a time.

in the past I had to switch from DCOM based remoting to my own midas and socket transport implementation in order to alleviate fragmentation
problems and OOM errors during producing, processing and transferring big amounts of data

some of my services also exhibit months of uptime in 24x7 mission critical usage

but I admit that some brilliant developers (such as Arnaud Bouchez etc.) indeed can produce really efficient solutions and libs

--
Vladimir Ulchenko aka vavan
Bruce McGee

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Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Oct 13, 2015 3:44 AM   in response to: Vladimir Ulchenko in response to: Vladimir Ulchenko
Vladimir Ulchenko wrote:

On Tue, 13 Oct 2015 02:41:20 -0700, Bruce McGee <bmcgee at glooscap dot com>
wrote:

Based on what exactly?

as I already explained as soon as I see thoughtless usage of memory
structures growing using realloc based strategy I know that sooner or
later this place might become bottleneck under stress conditions
during handling of large volumes of data

I thought your example turned out to be thoughtless use of the library
in question.

It isn't an exhaustive list, but most of the libraries I've used
over the years perform well under stress conditions.

may be you used really efficient libs or just didn't push them to
their limits, who knows

I've used a bunch of different libraries, and I like to think I push
them pretty well.

Which kind of goes against the impression that most are behaving badly.

--
Regards,
Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
Vladimir Ulchenko

Posts: 248
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Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Oct 13, 2015 4:42 AM   in response to: Bruce McGee in response to: Bruce McGee
On Tue, 13 Oct 2015 03:44:41 -0700, Bruce McGee <bmcgee at glooscap dot com> wrote:

I thought your example turned out to be thoughtless use of the library
in question.

"example"? I didn't provide any real example yet, here's one https://www.devexpress.com/Support/Center/Question/Details/B207134 and other
similar tickets
and if the lib exposes some functionality (especially as one of its selling points) it should ensure it's working decently as end users
don't know its limits, they just use what they have. there are plenty of memory available but suddenly it bombs

I've used a bunch of different libraries, and I like to think I push
them pretty well.

without knowing your limits and how much is your much I cannot comment

Which kind of goes against the impression that most are behaving badly.

but I can concede that probably somehow you managed to avoid such libs :)

--
Vladimir Ulchenko aka vavan
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Oct 13, 2015 9:45 AM   in response to: Vladimir Ulchenko in response to: Vladimir Ulchenko
Vladimir Ulchenko wrote:

On Tue, 13 Oct 2015 03:44:41 -0700, Bruce McGee <bmcgee at glooscap dot com>
wrote:

I thought your example turned out to be thoughtless use of the
library in question.

"example"?

Yes. Your example was the Devex component.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"You know, sometimes a man just can't satisfy all of a woman's
desires. Which is why God invented dental floss."
-- Author Unknown
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Oct 13, 2015 9:49 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:

Vladimir Ulchenko wrote:

On Tue, 13 Oct 2015 03:44:41 -0700, Bruce McGee
<bmcgee at glooscap dot com> wrote:

I thought your example turned out to be thoughtless use of the
library in question.

"example"?

Yes. Your example was the Devex component.

Hmmm... With "example", did you mean a "code sample"? You did not give
one, indeed, but you gave an example alright.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Few things are harder to put up with than a good example."
- Mark Twain (1835-1910)
Vladimir Ulchenko

Posts: 248
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Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Oct 12, 2015 8:25 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
On Mon, 12 Oct 2015 08:14:33 -0700, Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) <newsgroups at rvelthuis dot de> wrote:

That can also happen with 8 bit strings. It just happens a little
earlier with 16 bit strings, if you really fill all your memory with

I wonder whether you missed the last paragraph of my previous answer or just playing the captain obvious

--
Vladimir Ulchenko aka vavan
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Oct 12, 2015 8:35 AM   in response to: Vladimir Ulchenko in response to: Vladimir Ulchenko
Vladimir Ulchenko wrote:

On Mon, 12 Oct 2015 08:14:33 -0700, Rudy Velthuis (TeamB)
<newsgroups at rvelthuis dot de> wrote:

That can also happen with 8 bit strings. It just happens a little
earlier with 16 bit strings, if you really fill all your memory with

I wonder whether you missed the last paragraph of my previous answer
or just playing the captain obvious

No, I didn't. I think any code that uses memory so, er, naively that
the chance of running out of memory (i.e. filling up the entire address
space) is close is quite, er, moronic. Even code that uses only half of
that memory space.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly,
while bad people will find a way around the laws."
-- Plato (427-347 B.C.)
Dalija Prasnikar

Posts: 2,325
Registered: 11/9/99
Re: Voting for Classic Delphi (or even Rad Studio Classic) [Edit]  
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  Posted: Oct 12, 2015 8:48 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:
Vladimir Ulchenko wrote:

On Mon, 12 Oct 2015 08:14:33 -0700, Rudy Velthuis (TeamB)
<newsgroups at rvelthuis dot de> wrote:

That can also happen with 8 bit strings. It just happens a little
earlier with 16 bit strings, if you really fill all your memory with

I wonder whether you missed the last paragraph of my previous answer
or just playing the captain obvious

No, I didn't. I think any code that uses memory so, er, naively that
the chance of running out of memory (i.e. filling up the entire address
space) is close is quite, er, moronic. Even code that uses only half of
that memory space.

In that case Delphi IDE design can be considered moronic, too. All those people having
trouble with out of memory errors. And how was the issue resolved - by modifying
IDE to be able to grab more memory.

--
Dalija Prasnikar