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Thread: XE 10 - Bugfixes and Subscription Questions


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Permlink Replies: 62 - Last Post: Sep 30, 2015 5:28 AM Last Post By: Rudy Velthuis (... Threads: [ Previous | Next ]
Adam Hair

Posts: 31
Registered: 9/2/00
XE 10 - Bugfixes and Subscription Questions  
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  Posted: Sep 1, 2015 6:49 PM
Hi,

I'm currently looking at purchasing XE 10.

I'm a little confused about updates vs bugfixes. I see in a previous thread that since XE8 appears to have changed to a new model, where minor version updates require a subscription.

As a smaller developer I tend to skip a few major versions between updates. This is both due to a mixture of cost (moreso 3rd party components - not just Delphi), as well as being able to release well tested and stable applications. (Knowing what I'm working with and getting a stable product out having used that IDE for over a year). As such, a subscription will actually cost me more in the long run than paying for new versions as I require them because if I upgrade and work with XE10 it's likely I will stay with XE10 for a few years before upgrading again.

I was ready to purchase RAD XE10, but hesitated when I noticed the update policy. I'm now trying to get a full understanding on whether or not I will get bug fixes (not new features) if/as they become available with my initial purchase.

I see that according to the XE8 thread - XE8 "only" purchases apparently got some updates / patches but not all. I'm assuming these were bug fixes and not new enhancements?

I was wondering if the same is going to be available for XE 10 (that bug fixes / patches will still be available free without a subscription), or will I be left completely out in the cold with bugs if I don't purchase subscriptions?

Alternatively can I pay for individual updates, or will I be forced to purchase a subscription just to get bug fixes if I want to upgrade to XE 10?

Thanks

Adam

Edited by: Adam Hair on Sep 1, 2015 6:51 PM
Dalija Prasnikar

Posts: 2,325
Registered: 11/9/99
Re: XE 10 - Bugfixes and Subscription Questions
Helpful
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  Posted: Sep 2, 2015 12:26 AM   in response to: Adam Hair in response to: Adam Hair
Adam Hair wrote:
Hi,

I'm currently looking at purchasing XE 10.

I'm a little confused about updates vs bugfixes. I see in a previous thread that since XE8 appears to have changed to a new model, where minor version updates require a subscription.

As a smaller developer I tend to skip a few major versions between updates. This is both due to a mixture of cost (moreso 3rd party components - not just Delphi), as well as being able to release well tested and stable applications. (Knowing what I'm working with and getting a stable product out having used that IDE for over a year). As such, a subscription will actually cost me more in the long run than paying for new versions as I require them because if I upgrade and work with XE10 it's likely I will stay with XE10 for a few years before upgrading again.

I was ready to purchase RAD XE10, but hesitated when I noticed the update policy. I'm now trying to get a full understanding on whether or not I will get bug fixes (not new features) if/as they become available with my initial purchase.

You will not get bug fixes if you are not on subscription. Take a look at bug fix
list for XE8.1 and notice the difference between General Update and
Subscription Update http://edn.embarcadero.com/article/44470

General Update practically didn't get nothing. And there were some
whooping regressions in XE8. Not fixed for those not on subscription.


Alternatively can I pay for individual updates, or will I be forced to purchase a subscription just to get bug fixes if I want to upgrade to XE 10?

I cannot say whether you could pay for individual updates, I
don't think so, and anyway that would probably be more expensive
than purchasing subscription.

My advice would be absolutely do not buy without subscription, and
you don't have to renew subscription when it runs out. But that will
work in your favor only if you have really long periods between
moving to new version for development.

It sucks, but you cannot do much about it except vigorously complain,
and even that will not change a thing.... been there done that...

--
Dalija Prasnikar
Carl-Henrik Nil...

Posts: 53
Registered: 3/26/02
Re: XE 10 - Bugfixes and Subscription Questions
Helpful
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  Posted: Sep 2, 2015 1:01 AM   in response to: Dalija Prasnikar in response to: Dalija Prasnikar
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:
It sucks

Indeed!

but you cannot do much about it except vigorously complain,
and even that will not change a thing.... been there done that...

Please don't give up Dalija!

--
C-H
Adam Hair

Posts: 31
Registered: 9/2/00
Re: XE 10 - Bugfixes and Subscription Questions  
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  Posted: Sep 2, 2015 3:34 PM   in response to: Dalija Prasnikar in response to: Dalija Prasnikar
Hi Dalija,

Thanks for your response.

If I purchase XE10 without a subscription - I believe I'm eligible for previous versions (ie, get XE8 as part of it). Do you know whether or not I would receive the latest updates to XE8 "as at" the time of purchase (ie, XE 8 Update 1 would be available to me)?

My thought would be that I'd just have to sacrifice the use of XE10 but I might be able to get a more stable previous version one or two major releases down?

Thanks & Regards

Adam.
Dalija Prasnikar

Posts: 2,325
Registered: 11/9/99
Re: XE 10 - Bugfixes and Subscription Questions  
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  Posted: Sep 3, 2015 4:13 AM   in response to: Adam Hair in response to: Adam Hair
Adam Hair wrote:
Hi Dalija,

Thanks for your response.

If I purchase XE10 without a subscription - I believe I'm eligible for previous versions (ie, get XE8 as part of it). Do you know whether or not I would receive the latest updates to XE8 "as at" the time of purchase (ie, XE 8 Update 1 would be available to me)?

I think so, but you would have to check with your sales representative.

My thought would be that I'd just have to sacrifice the use of XE10 but I might be able to get a more stable previous version one or two major releases down?

That would probably work, unless you plan to use it for mobile development.

Keep in mind that each of previous versions has its issues so you would have to make
sure that there are no showstoppers for your code-base.

Also, if you change your mind and decide to purchase subscription (that you don't plan
to extend), wait for few weeks before purchasing (if you can). For last few years release dates
have been rather close to certain dates, but it would still be possible that you miss
getting some new version because your subscription expired.

For instance, Delphi XE3 was released on 3rd September 2012, but XE5 was released
11th September, 2013. Someone that purchased XE3 with subscription before 11th September,
and let its subscription lapse would not received XE5.

--
Dalija Prasnikar
Adam Hair

Posts: 31
Registered: 9/2/00
Re: XE 10 - Bugfixes and Subscription Questions  
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  Posted: Sep 4, 2015 4:59 PM   in response to: Dalija Prasnikar in response to: Dalija Prasnikar
Hi Dalija,

Thanks again for your reply.

Dalija Prasnikar wrote:
Adam Hair wrote:
If I purchase XE10 without a subscription - I believe I'm eligible for previous versions (ie, get XE8 as part of it). Do you know whether or not I would receive the latest updates to XE8 "as at" the time of purchase (ie, XE 8 Update 1 would be available to me)?

I think so, but you would have to check with your sales representative.

Hi Dalija,

Thanks again for your reply.

I’ve contacted our sales rep, and have had a disappointing reply to find out in addition to what you’ve mentioned that we also do not get old updates / patches for previous versions included with our purchase. (ie If I purchase XE10, and choose to use XE8 I do not get a patched version of XE8 as part of my XE10 purchase – just the initial buggy release. I must still purchase a new a subscription to get access to updates for old / past patches as well.)

What’s even worse - if I purchase Delphi/RAD Studio without a subscription and it takes me more than 30 days to discover a serious bug that I need a patch for, there no longer remains a way for me to then purchase a subscription package or obtain the patch as I’ve been told subscription packages must be purchased with the initial purchase, or within 30 days.

I would be forced to purchase a completely new license of Delphi/RAD Studio again, or wait for the next major release to have the opportunity to purchase an additional subscription package just to have an opportunity to get the bug fix.

My thought would be that I'd just have to sacrifice the use of XE10 but I might be able to get a more stable previous version one or two major releases down?

That would probably work, unless you plan to use it for mobile development.

As for mobile development. I’ve been with Delphi since Version 1 only using VCL til now. We are now looking at moving into mobile development. RAD Studio looked like a no brainer since I am already very familiar with Delphi, but after finding all this out I'm having second thoughts about whether I want to commit my mobile development down the same road.

Keep in mind that each of previous versions has its issues so you would have to make
sure that there are no showstoppers for your code-base.

Also, if you change your mind and decide to purchase subscription (that you don't plan
to extend), wait for few weeks before purchasing (if you can). For last few years release dates
have been rather close to certain dates, but it would still be possible that you miss
getting some new version because your subscription expired.

Thanks for this tip - however I'm really not worried about future versions at this stage. If Delphi XE11 (or 12) is released within a month of my subscription expiry, I'd still be silly to go with it because I wouldn't get any patches available for it. It would be the same as me purchasing XE10 now without a subscription. The only option would be to renew and maintained an active subscription, at which point when I purchase it compared to release dates really becomes irrelevant.

I now have to make the decision whether XE7 (The latest version that patches are freely available) is worth updating from my current version, whether I purchase the subscription solely to get the patches for existing versions, or whether I just stay with what I already have.

Thanks for taking the time to respond and give me feedback and advise.

Cheers

Adam.

Edited by: Adam Hair on Sep 4, 2015 5:00 PM
Brian Hamilton ...

Posts: 556
Registered: 10/14/04
Re: XE 10 - Bugfixes and Subscription Questions  
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  Posted: Sep 4, 2015 5:35 PM   in response to: Adam Hair in response to: Adam Hair
Seattle DX10 is much better than XE8
I would recommend purchasing it
and recommend update subscription
Dalija Prasnikar

Posts: 2,325
Registered: 11/9/99
Re: XE 10 - Bugfixes and Subscription Questions
Correct
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  Posted: Sep 5, 2015 4:05 AM   in response to: Adam Hair in response to: Adam Hair
Adam Hair wrote:
Hi Dalija,

Thanks again for your reply.

Dalija Prasnikar wrote:
Adam Hair wrote:
If I purchase XE10 without a subscription - I believe I'm eligible for previous versions (ie, get XE8 as part of it). Do you know whether or not I would receive the latest updates to XE8 "as at" the time of purchase (ie, XE 8 Update 1 would be available to me)?

I think so, but you would have to check with your sales representative.

Hi Dalija,

Thanks again for your reply.

I’ve contacted our sales rep, and have had a disappointing reply to find out in addition to what you’ve mentioned that we also do not get old updates / patches for previous versions included with our purchase. (ie If I purchase XE10, and choose to use XE8 I do not get a patched version of XE8 as part of my XE10 purchase – just the initial buggy release. I must still purchase a new a subscription to get access to updates for old / past patches as well.)

What’s even worse - if I purchase Delphi/RAD Studio without a subscription and it takes me more than 30 days to discover a serious bug that I need a patch for, there no longer remains a way for me to then purchase a subscription package or obtain the patch as I’ve been told subscription packages must be purchased with the initial purchase, or within 30 days.

I would be forced to purchase a completely new license of Delphi/RAD Studio again, or wait for the next major release to have the opportunity to purchase an additional subscription package just to have an opportunity to get the bug fix.

That is really bad.

My thought would be that I'd just have to sacrifice the use of XE10 but I might be able to get a more stable previous version one or two major releases down?

That would probably work, unless you plan to use it for mobile development.

As for mobile development. I’ve been with Delphi since Version 1 only using VCL til now. We are now looking at moving into mobile development. RAD Studio looked like a no brainer since I am already very familiar with Delphi, but after finding all this out I'm having second thoughts about whether I want to commit my mobile development down the same road.

It is hard to tell. Personally I have moved to native tools - Android Studio and Xcode. One of the main
reasons were lack of 8-bits strings on mobile platform that prevented me to use my UTF8String based
library on mobile. I also needed to support more Android devices - ones without NEON CPU and
Intel based devices.

But many developers are successfully using Delphi for mobile and have said they saved time and money
by using it. So how much is Delphi suitable for you it is hard to tell. It all depends on your code
base, what kind of applications you write, your customers...


I now have to make the decision whether XE7 (The latest version that patches are freely available) is worth updating from my current version, whether I purchase the subscription solely to get the patches for existing versions, or whether I just stay with what I already have.

That depends on which version you currently have, but also on what features
are you using. Most of development from XE2 has been done on FMX and multi
platform support. VCL has received very little in return. But if you are using 64bit
Win compiler there were bug fixes along the way that may be of value. Also some
new features were introduced for all platforms including VCL like parallel library,
app tethering...

AFAIK FireDAC part has also been under constant development and has received
many improvements.

I am sorry that I cannot be more helpful with this part too, but like with mobile development
whether or not you should upgrade highly depends on your code base and your needs.

--
Dalija Prasnikar
Rudy Velthuis (...


Posts: 7,731
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: XE 10 - Bugfixes and Subscription Questions  
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  Posted: Sep 7, 2015 3:12 AM   in response to: Dalija Prasnikar in response to: Dalija Prasnikar
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:

It is hard to tell. Personally I have moved to native tools - Android
Studio and Xcode. One of the main reasons were lack of 8-bits strings
on mobile platform that prevented me to use my UTF8String based
library on mobile.

In other words, you say you go to other platforms which allow for much
less re-use just because you can't readily re-use your UTF8String
library. But you can't use that library in Android Studio and Xcode
either, I suppose. There, you'll have to live with 16-bit strings too.

If you say: "I have plenty of other reasons to 'go native'", then fine.
But the lack of 8-bit strings on mobile platforms in Delphi can't be
it, since your native "alternatives" don't have them either.

And well, no cross-platform development between Xcode and Android
Studio, I guess. No re-use of any libraries, or designs, or even plain
source code, I guess.

Makes perfect sense. NOT.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"There must be more to life than having everything."
-- Maurice Sendak
Dalija Prasnikar

Posts: 2,325
Registered: 11/9/99
Re: XE 10 - Bugfixes and Subscription Questions  
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  Posted: Sep 8, 2015 1:56 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:

It is hard to tell. Personally I have moved to native tools - Android
Studio and Xcode. One of the main reasons were lack of 8-bits strings
on mobile platform that prevented me to use my UTF8String based
library on mobile.

In other words, you say you go to other platforms which allow for much
less re-use just because you can't readily re-use your UTF8String
library. But you can't use that library in Android Studio and Xcode
either, I suppose. There, you'll have to live with 16-bit strings too.

I know, and that is one of the reasons they should have kept 8-bit strings
because it would give them ability to say: "We offer you something Java
and/or Objective-C" cannot do.

If you say: "I have plenty of other reasons to 'go native'", then fine.
But the lack of 8-bit strings on mobile platforms in Delphi can't be
it, since your native "alternatives" don't have them either.

I did say one of the reasons. Story is a bit more complicated.

First as you may know when you are choosing right tool for the job there
are more than one things to consider. Those include cost of the tool, trust
in the vendor ability to promptly react to changes and platform progress,
reusability of existing code and skills, device support, GUI design and
performance, how easily you can find new developers with appropriate
skill sets, how easily you can interact with platform OS and how easily
you can get/find online help when you don't know how to do something.

But, back to my case - first absolute showstopper was no support for
devices I needed to support - non NEON CPUs and Intel CPUs. Also
at that time I needed support for minimum API 8 - in the mean-time that
was moved to API 15, but with Java I can very easily drop down to any
API between 8 and 15 if needed. Something I cannot do with Delphi.

Above mentioned projects where I needed support for more devices and
APIs do not have specific requirement for 8-bit string, or should I say those
project would not use too much of my UTF8String based library, so code
reusability was not imperative in those cases. Still, having 8-bit strings
would be more than useful, because, like it or not, mobile devices do have
memory constraints and now and then you bump into those with some rather
simple code - then you have to resort to using byte arrays instead of strings
and it is not fun - no matter what language you use Java, Delphi, Objective-C,
Swift...

I also had some internal projects where I didn't need wide device support and
where I could live with some bugs and sluggishness of FMX, but those projects
heavily depend on my library. Without code reuse those would never see the light
of day. Instead of Android we decided to go with Windows based tablets instead
to get code reuse we needed.

And above (both use cases) sealed Delphi as no-deal when it comes to mobile
development in my case. If I could have used it for internal projects I would have
better insight into what I can or cannot do in Delphi for mobile platforms, and
how fast. That would also give me opportunity to choose Delphi for some other
(non-internal) projects that could live with restricted API and device support.

But, now when I actively use other tools, I cannot go back to Delphi every five
minutes to see if maybe I can use it for some minor thing. Especially, since
PRO SKU does not have mobile support. Spending money on tool I cannot
use, just to play with it (if I can find the time) would be pure waste, no
matter how much I love Delphi otherwise.

And well, no cross-platform development between Xcode and Android
Studio, I guess. No re-use of any libraries, or designs, or even plain
source code, I guess.

Makes perfect sense. NOT.

Reusing same non-native GUI is not always and option. Some applications
can live with that approach, some don't. And when you discard the UI, sometimes
you can find that there is not much left to reuse. At least not that much that it
would be problematic anyway.

When you are developing mobile app, the most work intensive part is to get
that app design, and functionality right. Translating that to another language/OS
can be done rather fast. And after you build first few apps you will also end up
with reusable libraries for that platform made in native tools. Once you get to that
point ability to reuse Delphi code on multiple platforms looses its edge.

And once again, except my experience with the language (with zero existing code
reuse), Delphi gave me nothing substantial that would make my mobile development
faster with it, than using native tools.

Anyway, the most time consuming part about developing for new platform is learning
about the platform itself, and not how to use and write code in platform tool/language.

--
Dalija Prasnikar
Rudy Velthuis (...


Posts: 7,731
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: XE 10 - Bugfixes and Subscription Questions  
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  Posted: Sep 8, 2015 8:14 AM   in response to: Dalija Prasnikar in response to: Dalija Prasnikar
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:

Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:

It is hard to tell. Personally I have moved to native tools -
Android Studio and Xcode. One of the main reasons were lack of
8-bits strings on mobile platform that prevented me to use my
UTF8String based library on mobile.

In other words, you say you go to other platforms which allow for
much less re-use just because you can't readily re-use your
UTF8String library. But you can't use that library in Android
Studio and Xcode either, I suppose. There, you'll have to live with
16-bit strings too.

I know, and that is one of the reasons they should have kept 8-bit
strings because it would give them ability to say: "We offer you
something Java and/or Objective-C" cannot do.

If you say: "I have plenty of other reasons to 'go native'", then
fine. But the lack of 8-bit strings on mobile platforms in Delphi
can't be it, since your native "alternatives" don't have them
either.

I did say one of the reasons. Story is a bit more complicated.

It can not be one of the reasons. The alternatives don't have them
either.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"I agree with the reforms, but I want nothing to change"
-- Ion Luca Caragiale, Romanian playwriter, 1880

Dalija Prasnikar

Posts: 2,325
Registered: 11/9/99
Re: XE 10 - Bugfixes and Subscription Questions  
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  Posted: Sep 8, 2015 10:19 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:

I did say one of the reasons. Story is a bit more complicated.

It can not be one of the reasons. The alternatives don't have them
either.

And the you remove parts where I explain why it is one of the reasons.

1. For projects where I needed 8-bit strings we ended up using Windows
based tablets and desktop Delphi compiler because those were internal projects.

2. for projects where we didn't need 8-bit strings that much we needed support
for Intel and non-NEON CPUs and API 8 that Delphi does not have.

With 8-bit strings I still could not use Delphi for project under 2., but I could
have used it for projects under 1. Total number of projects where I could use
Delphi equals 0.

Being able to use it for projects under 1. would give me more opportunity
to squeeze some of the projects under 2. under Delphi development because
with time some of the API and CPU requirements could be adjusted and new
projects are coming in.

What is not understandable here?

--
Dalija Prasnikar
Rudy Velthuis (...


Posts: 7,731
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: XE 10 - Bugfixes and Subscription Questions  
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  Posted: Sep 9, 2015 11:16 PM   in response to: Dalija Prasnikar in response to: Dalija Prasnikar
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:

Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:

I did say one of the reasons. Story is a bit more complicated.

It can not be one of the reasons. The alternatives don't have them
either.

And the you remove parts where I explain why it is one of the reasons.

1. For projects where I needed 8-bit strings we ended up using
Windows based tablets and desktop Delphi compiler because those were
internal projects.

2. for projects where we didn't need 8-bit strings that much we
needed support for Intel and non-NEON CPUs and API 8 that Delphi does
not have.

What is not understandable here?

That in both cases, the lack of 8 bit strings was not a problem (in the
first case, you don't lack them and in the second case, it doesn't seem
to matter), although you always claim that as the first and foremost
reason to switch.

So no, it was not one of the reasons.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"If you think your management doesn't know what it's doing or
that your organisation turns out low-quality software crap that
embarrasses you, then leave."
-- Edward Yourdon Rise and Resurrection of the American
Programmer
Dalija Prasnikar

Posts: 2,325
Registered: 11/9/99
Re: XE 10 - Bugfixes and Subscription Questions  
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  Posted: Sep 10, 2015 1:00 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:

Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:

I did say one of the reasons. Story is a bit more complicated.

It can not be one of the reasons. The alternatives don't have them
either.

And the you remove parts where I explain why it is one of the reasons.

1. For projects where I needed 8-bit strings we ended up using
Windows based tablets and desktop Delphi compiler because those were
internal projects.

2. for projects where we didn't need 8-bit strings that much we
needed support for Intel and non-NEON CPUs and API 8 that Delphi does
not have.

What is not understandable here?

That in both cases, the lack of 8 bit strings was not a problem (in the
first case, you don't lack them and in the second case, it doesn't seem
to matter), although you always claim that as the first and foremost
reason to switch.

So no, it was not one of the reasons.

You are completely missing the point.

We had Android tablets and still have, but instead of developing Android application
with Delphi that would give me experience in both Android development and Delphi
mobile development, we had to use Windows tablets and gain no new experience
because we could not use 8-bit strings in Delphi mobile compiler. Add reason 2. to
that and final result is I am not using Delphi for mobile development. Opportunity
lost, for both Delphi and me, probably forever.

Effectively, with decision not to have 8-bit strings in mobile compiler, and not to act
on my QC report requesting them (reported 10/4/2013) Embarcadero has forever
lost me as customer for mobile development. And I bet I am not the only one.

--
Dalija Prasnikar
Rudy Velthuis (...


Posts: 7,731
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: XE 10 - Bugfixes and Subscription Questions  
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  Posted: Sep 10, 2015 5:39 AM   in response to: Dalija Prasnikar in response to: Dalija Prasnikar
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:

Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:

Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:

I did say one of the reasons. Story is a bit more
complicated.

It can not be one of the reasons. The alternatives don't have
them either.

And the you remove parts where I explain why it is one of the
reasons.

1. For projects where I needed 8-bit strings we ended up using
Windows based tablets and desktop Delphi compiler because those
were internal projects.

2. for projects where we didn't need 8-bit strings that much we
needed support for Intel and non-NEON CPUs and API 8 that Delphi
does not have.

What is not understandable here?

That in both cases, the lack of 8 bit strings was not a problem (in
the first case, you don't lack them and in the second case, it
doesn't seem to matter), although you always claim that as the
first and foremost reason to switch.

So no, it was not one of the reasons.

You are completely missing the point.

We had Android tablets and still have, but instead of developing
Android application with Delphi that would give me experience in both
Android development and Delphi mobile development, we had to use
Windows tablets and gain no new experience because we could not use
8-bit strings in Delphi mobile compiler.

That's nonsense. It is very well possible to develop for Android
without 8 bit strings, in Delphi. If you say you didn't WANT to, OK,
and therefore chose to use Windows tablets, fine. That is your decision.

But the lack of 8 bit strings DID NOT PREVENT you to develop anything.
And if you use Xcode, you must rewrite everything and don't have 8 bit
strings either, so your library of UTF8 stuff is useless as well. For
that platform, you obviously can develop without 8 bit strings.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

Wood's Axiom: As soon as a still-to-be-finished computer task
becomes a life-or-death situation, the power fails.
Dalija Prasnikar

Posts: 2,325
Registered: 11/9/99
Re: XE 10 - Bugfixes and Subscription Questions  
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  Posted: Sep 10, 2015 7:13 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:

Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:

Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:

I did say one of the reasons. Story is a bit more
complicated.

It can not be one of the reasons. The alternatives don't have
them either.

And the you remove parts where I explain why it is one of the
reasons.

1. For projects where I needed 8-bit strings we ended up using
Windows based tablets and desktop Delphi compiler because those
were internal projects.

2. for projects where we didn't need 8-bit strings that much we
needed support for Intel and non-NEON CPUs and API 8 that Delphi
does not have.

What is not understandable here?

That in both cases, the lack of 8 bit strings was not a problem (in
the first case, you don't lack them and in the second case, it
doesn't seem to matter), although you always claim that as the
first and foremost reason to switch.

So no, it was not one of the reasons.

You are completely missing the point.

We had Android tablets and still have, but instead of developing
Android application with Delphi that would give me experience in both
Android development and Delphi mobile development, we had to use
Windows tablets and gain no new experience because we could not use
8-bit strings in Delphi mobile compiler.

That's nonsense. It is very well possible to develop for Android
without 8 bit strings, in Delphi. If you say you didn't WANT to, OK,
and therefore chose to use Windows tablets, fine. That is your decision.

You do understand the concept of time, do you?

It would be possible to do those projects without 8-bit strings, but in that
case instead of weeks I would be working for months. That was not
acceptable solution.

But the lack of 8 bit strings DID NOT PREVENT you to develop anything.
And if you use Xcode, you must rewrite everything and don't have 8 bit
strings either, so your library of UTF8 stuff is useless as well. For
that platform, you obviously can develop without 8 bit strings.

Yes it did prevented me. And I didn't wrote those projects in Xcode or Java
but in Delphi for Windows.

--
Dalija Prasnikar
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: XE 10 - Bugfixes and Subscription Questions  
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  Posted: Sep 10, 2015 7:57 AM   in response to: Dalija Prasnikar in response to: Dalija Prasnikar
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:

That's nonsense. It is very well possible to develop for Android
without 8 bit strings, in Delphi. If you say you didn't WANT to, OK,
and therefore chose to use Windows tablets, fine. That is your
decision.

You do understand the concept of time, do you?

Sure, although Einstein would have told you that it is much more
complicated than you might think. <g>

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Humanity has advanced, when it has advanced, not because it
has been sober, responsible, and cautious, but because it has
been playful, rebellious, and immature."
-- Tom Robbins
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: XE 10 - Bugfixes and Subscription Questions  
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  Posted: Sep 10, 2015 7:58 AM   in response to: Dalija Prasnikar in response to: Dalija Prasnikar
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:

Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:

Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:

Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:

I did say one of the reasons. Story is a bit more
complicated.

It can not be one of the reasons. The alternatives don't
have them either.

And the you remove parts where I explain why it is one of the
reasons.

1. For projects where I needed 8-bit strings we ended up using
Windows based tablets and desktop Delphi compiler because
those were internal projects.

2. for projects where we didn't need 8-bit strings that much
we needed support for Intel and non-NEON CPUs and API 8 that
Delphi does not have.

What is not understandable here?

That in both cases, the lack of 8 bit strings was not a problem
(in the first case, you don't lack them and in the second case,
it doesn't seem to matter), although you always claim that as
the first and foremost reason to switch.

So no, it was not one of the reasons.

You are completely missing the point.

We had Android tablets and still have, but instead of developing
Android application with Delphi that would give me experience in
both Android development and Delphi mobile development, we had to
use Windows tablets and gain no new experience because we could
not use 8-bit strings in Delphi mobile compiler.

That's nonsense. It is very well possible to develop for Android
without 8 bit strings, in Delphi. If you say you didn't WANT to, OK,
and therefore chose to use Windows tablets, fine. That is your
decision.

You do understand the concept of time, do you?

It would be possible to do those projects without 8-bit strings, but
in that case instead of weeks I would be working for months.

Isn't that what you do for iOS?
--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Disobedience is the true foundation of liberty. The obedient
must be slaves."
-- Henry David Thoreau
Dalija Prasnikar

Posts: 2,325
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Re: XE 10 - Bugfixes and Subscription Questions  
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  Posted: Sep 10, 2015 10:22 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:


You do understand the concept of time, do you?

It would be possible to do those projects without 8-bit strings, but
in that case instead of weeks I would be working for months.

Isn't that what you do for iOS?

I will try one more time, and then I give up...

I had TWO different types of projects for ANDROID.

FIRST - internal projects for Android that required 8-bit strings and my UTF8String
based library (no I cannot change it to string). If Delphi had 8-bit strings I could
have used it for those.

Workaround for those projects was to use different hardware (Windows tablets)
because it was cheaper and faster solution. But I could do so only because I
those were internal projects where using different hardware and platform was an
option. If I would have to write those projects for Android in ANY TOOL I would never
get green light to do them because we could not afford doing those projects from
scratch.

SECOND - projects for Android platform where I didn't need 8-bit strings, but I needed
to support APIs and CPUs Delphi does not support. I had to use Java and Android
Studio for those. I could never do those projects in Delphi anyway, so leave them
out of the 8-bit string discussion.

--
Dalija Prasnikar
Dan Barclay

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Re: XE 10 - Bugfixes and Subscription Questions  
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  Posted: Sep 10, 2015 9:48 AM   in response to: Dalija Prasnikar in response to: Dalija Prasnikar
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:
That's nonsense. It is very well possible to develop for Android
without 8 bit strings, in Delphi. If you say you didn't WANT to, OK,
and therefore chose to use Windows tablets, fine. That is your decision.

You do understand the concept of time, do you?

Of course you do understand that you are talking to a crowd of people who do not understand the concept of maintaining existing code as a business asset. They also don't appreciate developers who use a tool to its fullest extent, encoding binary data into text in their own way.

Nor do they recognize that most developers trust very valuable assets to the developer tool, and get ticked when the tool is changed in a way that code assets are broken or destroyed. If they don't "get it" by now, they are not going to. They don't want to. Because they are right (I've heard them say so... it must be true).

Trust is one of the more important developer tool features, to the amazement of those who think "what you were promised in contracts" matters.

Reusable code: The most rapid of rapid development tools. Write once, use it. What a concept!

It would be possible to do those projects without 8-bit strings, but in that
case instead of weeks I would be working for months. That was not
acceptable solution.

But the lack of 8 bit strings DID NOT PREVENT you to develop anything.
And if you use Xcode, you must rewrite everything and don't have 8 bit
strings either, so your library of UTF8 stuff is useless as well. For
that platform, you obviously can develop without 8 bit strings.

Yes it did prevented me. And I didn't wrote those projects in Xcode or Java
but in Delphi for Windows.

If you don't do it their way, you are not allowed.

So It Is Written.

Dan
Dalija Prasnikar

Posts: 2,325
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Re: XE 10 - Bugfixes and Subscription Questions  
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  Posted: Sep 10, 2015 10:06 AM   in response to: Dan Barclay in response to: Dan Barclay
Dan Barclay wrote:
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:
That's nonsense. It is very well possible to develop for Android
without 8 bit strings, in Delphi. If you say you didn't WANT to, OK,
and therefore chose to use Windows tablets, fine. That is your decision.

You do understand the concept of time, do you?

Of course you do understand that you are talking to a crowd of people who do not understand the concept of maintaining existing code as a business asset. They also don't appreciate developers who use a tool to its fullest extent, encoding binary data into text in their own way.

I keep forgetting that...

Nor do they recognize that most developers trust very valuable assets to the developer tool, and get ticked when the tool is changed in a way that code assets are broken or destroyed. If they don't "get it" by now, they are not going to. They don't want to. Because they are right (I've heard them say so... it must be true).

Trust is one of the more important developer tool features, to the amazement of those who think "what you were promised in contracts" matters.

Reusable code: The most rapid of rapid development tools. Write once, use it. What a concept!

The funniest part is that Embarcadero is marketing reusable code as their
strongest point. They just forgot to mention that this is true only for new
code you write and maybe for some old code. If you are lucky, if not, you
were doing it wrong...

Of course, one cannot expect that going cross-platform would not require
some changes in code. But the fact that changes they are forcing are completely
and totally unnecessary is... I don't have words to express it...

It would be possible to do those projects without 8-bit strings, but in that
case instead of weeks I would be working for months. That was not
acceptable solution.

But the lack of 8 bit strings DID NOT PREVENT you to develop anything.
And if you use Xcode, you must rewrite everything and don't have 8 bit
strings either, so your library of UTF8 stuff is useless as well. For
that platform, you obviously can develop without 8 bit strings.

Yes it did prevented me. And I didn't wrote those projects in Xcode or Java
but in Delphi for Windows.

If you don't do it their way, you are not allowed.

So It Is Written.

LOL

--
Dalija Prasnikar
Brian Hamilton ...

Posts: 556
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Re: XE 10 - Bugfixes and Subscription Questions  
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  Posted: Sep 10, 2015 3:00 PM   in response to: Dalija Prasnikar in response to: Dalija Prasnikar
I have been able to use the same code I have in windows (XE6) on OSX and iOS and Android
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: XE 10 - Bugfixes and Subscription Questions  
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  Posted: Sep 10, 2015 4:15 PM   in response to: Brian Hamilton ... in response to: Brian Hamilton ...
Brian Hamilton Hamilton wrote:

I have been able to use the same code I have in windows (XE6) on OSX
and iOS and Android

So have I.

But not if they insist on using bad practices like storing binary data
in 8-bit strings instead of, well, arrays of bytes or any other
suitable type, depending on the data.

If you treat text as text and binary data as such, then there is no
problem migrating code from platform to platform.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"There is a country in Europe where multiple-choice tests are
illegal." -- Sigfried Hulzer
Dalija Prasnikar

Posts: 2,325
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Re: XE 10 - Bugfixes and Subscription Questions  
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  Posted: Sep 10, 2015 10:43 PM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:
Brian Hamilton Hamilton wrote:

I have been able to use the same code I have in windows (XE6) on OSX
and iOS and Android

So have I.

But not if they insist on using bad practices like storing binary data
in 8-bit strings instead of, well, arrays of bytes or any other
suitable type, depending on the data.

If you treat text as text and binary data as such, then there is no
problem migrating code from platform to platform.

And what about UTF-8 encoded text? I am repeating over and over again
that I am using UTF8String.

--
Dalija Prasnikar
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: XE 10 - Bugfixes and Subscription Questions  
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  Posted: Sep 11, 2015 2:46 AM   in response to: Dalija Prasnikar in response to: Dalija Prasnikar
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:

If you treat text as text and binary data as such, then there is no
problem migrating code from platform to platform.

And what about UTF-8 encoded text? I am repeating over and over again
that I am using UTF8String.

What about it?

UTF-8 can easily and quickly be converted to UTF-16 and/or back, at
the time of loading and/or saving. That is what many thousands of
programmers, who have to read and write UTF-8 and use a language with
only UTF-16 strings, do.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Sex is like a Chinese dinner. It isn't over until everyone gets
their cookies." -- from the movie "Outside Providence"
Dalija Prasnikar

Posts: 2,325
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Re: XE 10 - Bugfixes and Subscription Questions  
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  Posted: Sep 11, 2015 3:16 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:

If you treat text as text and binary data as such, then there is no
problem migrating code from platform to platform.

And what about UTF-8 encoded text? I am repeating over and over again
that I am using UTF8String.

What about it?

UTF-8 can easily and quickly be converted to UTF-16 and/or back, at
the time of loading and/or saving. That is what many thousands of
programmers, who have to read and write UTF-8 and use a language with
only UTF-16 strings, do.

I have said that million times before. Changing to UTF-16 is not an option.
UTF-16 strings consume twice as much memory and unnecessary conversion
slows down processing.

I am also most actively using language that has only UTF-16 strings (Java) and
you have no clue what you are talking about. Working with strings in Java is
huge pain in the butt. When you start hitting memory limitations, and if you
are working for mobile devices, that will happen much sooner than on desktop,
you have to resort to byte arrays. Not to mention that under Java byte is signed,
and debugging byte arrays is pure joy.

There is reason why we have strings from the beginning. Because strings are
optimized for processing and displaying textual data. Working with textual data
stored in byte arrays is way harder and takes more time to develop and test such
code than using 8-bit strings (where available).

So please stop telling me that developers in other languages without 8-bit strings
are doing fine. They are not doing fine. They are working their socks off to get
around string limitations when they have code that cannot be done using UTF-16 strings.

Almost every piece of data nowadays is UTF-8 encoded, having to use byte arrays
of converting that data to UTF-16 before you can do anything with it is huge drawback.

--
Dalija Prasnikar
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: XE 10 - Bugfixes and Subscription Questions  
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  Posted: Sep 11, 2015 4:23 AM   in response to: Dalija Prasnikar in response to: Dalija Prasnikar
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:

So please stop telling me that developers in other languages without
8-bit strings are doing fine. They are not doing fine.

Ask them. They are doing fine. If the demand for 8-bit strings had been
there, I'm sure that MS would have added them to .NET.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"I didn't attend the funeral, but I sent a nice letter saying I
approved of it." -- Mark Twain
Dalija Prasnikar

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Re: XE 10 - Bugfixes and Subscription Questions  
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  Posted: Sep 11, 2015 4:55 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:

So please stop telling me that developers in other languages without
8-bit strings are doing fine. They are not doing fine.

Ask them. They are doing fine. If the demand for 8-bit strings had been
there, I'm sure that MS would have added them to .NET.

People using MS tools are used to use C++ for low level work.

And once again, it is not about what other languages have and don't have
but about what Delphi had and existing code relying on features that do
not exist any more.

And I don't have problems when language is modified because some features
stand in a way of implementing new features that would improve the language.

I had no problems with Unicode transition and adjusting my code to that feature.
But I do have problems with completely useless removal of 8-bit strings that
seriously break my code.

--
Dalija Prasnikar
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: XE 10 - Bugfixes and Subscription Questions  
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  Posted: Sep 13, 2015 11:23 PM   in response to: Dalija Prasnikar in response to: Dalija Prasnikar
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:

Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:

So please stop telling me that developers in other languages
without 8-bit strings are doing fine. They are not doing fine.

Ask them. They are doing fine. If the demand for 8-bit strings had
been there, I'm sure that MS would have added them to .NET.

People using MS tools are used to use C++ for low level work.

Yeah, right. Note that C# is not old VB. My statement stands: "If the
demand for 8-bit strings had been there, I'm sure that MS would have
added them to .NET."

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Now comes the mystery"
-- Henry Ward Beecher, dying words, March 8, 1887
Dalija Prasnikar

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Re: XE 10 - Bugfixes and Subscription Questions  
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  Posted: Sep 14, 2015 1:26 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:

Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:

So please stop telling me that developers in other languages
without 8-bit strings are doing fine. They are not doing fine.

Ask them. They are doing fine. If the demand for 8-bit strings had
been there, I'm sure that MS would have added them to .NET.

People using MS tools are used to use C++ for low level work.

Yeah, right. Note that C# is not old VB. My statement stands: "If the
demand for 8-bit strings had been there, I'm sure that MS would have
added them to .NET."

And my statement stands too. In languages where there are no 8-bit strings
people use byte arrays when they bump into UTF-16 string limitations.

And again byte arrays are INFERIOR TOOL for handling textual data. We
have strings (of any kind) for reason. Because textual data is harder to
manage using byte arrays. It is harder to write such code, harder to debug,
harder to maintain. I am never going to settle for using byte arrays for handling
textual data in Delphi, because I know it can do better.

--
Dalija Prasnikar
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: XE 10 - Bugfixes and Subscription Questions  
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  Posted: Sep 14, 2015 3:00 AM   in response to: Dalija Prasnikar in response to: Dalija Prasnikar
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:

Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:

Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:

So please stop telling me that developers in other languages
without 8-bit strings are doing fine. They are not doing fine.

Ask them. They are doing fine. If the demand for 8-bit strings
had been there, I'm sure that MS would have added them to .NET.

People using MS tools are used to use C++ for low level work.

Yeah, right. Note that C# is not old VB. My statement stands: "If
the demand for 8-bit strings had been there, I'm sure that MS would
have added them to .NET."

And my statement stands too. In languages where there are no 8-bit
strings people use byte arrays when they bump into UTF-16 string
limitations.

They simply treat text as text and use strings for that. They use byte
arrays for anything non-text. What are those "UTF-16 string
limitations" anyway? For text, they are fine.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Those who hate and fight must stop themselves; otherwise it is
not stopped."
-- Spock, Day of the Dove
Dalija Prasnikar

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Re: XE 10 - Bugfixes and Subscription Questions  
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  Posted: Sep 14, 2015 3:31 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:

And my statement stands too. In languages where there are no 8-bit
strings people use byte arrays when they bump into UTF-16 string
limitations.

They simply treat text as text and use strings for that. They use byte
arrays for anything non-text. What are those "UTF-16 string
limitations" anyway? For text, they are fine.

Memory consumption on the first place. UTF-16 on average takes twice as
much memory as UTF8 or pure ASCII. Performance on the second because
unnecessary conversion from UTF8 to UTF16 back to UTF8 takes time.

--
Dalija Prasnikar
Dalija Prasnikar

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Re: XE 10 - Bugfixes and Subscription Questions  
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  Posted: Sep 10, 2015 10:44 PM   in response to: Brian Hamilton ... in response to: Brian Hamilton ...
Brian Hamilton Hamilton wrote:
I have been able to use the same code I have in windows (XE6) on OSX and iOS and Android

That is nice. Having code base like that. Or having
customers that will pay you no matter what changes you
have to do.

--
Dalija Prasnikar
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: XE 10 - Bugfixes and Subscription Questions  
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  Posted: Sep 11, 2015 4:06 AM   in response to: Dalija Prasnikar in response to: Dalija Prasnikar
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:

Brian Hamilton Hamilton wrote:
I have been able to use the same code I have in windows (XE6) on
OSX and iOS and Android

That is nice. Having code base like that. Or having
customers that will pay you no matter what changes you
have to do.

He probably chose the right data type for text, i.e. string, and
probably does not have to make a lot of changes to that at all.

In the end, being "clever" by using s specific string type, like your
UTF-8String did you no good. On the contrary. You are stuck with it. Or
you must be prepared to change a few things to turn it into "string".
And no, "I have no time" is no good excuse. You could have known from
the beginning.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Over breakfast coffee we read of 40,000 American dead in
Vietnam. Instead of vomiting, we reach for the toast. Our
morning rush through crowded streets is not to cry murder but
to hit that trough before somebody else gobbles our share."
-- Dalton Trumbo
Dalija Prasnikar

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Re: XE 10 - Bugfixes and Subscription Questions  
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  Posted: Sep 11, 2015 4:12 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:

Brian Hamilton Hamilton wrote:
I have been able to use the same code I have in windows (XE6) on
OSX and iOS and Android

That is nice. Having code base like that. Or having
customers that will pay you no matter what changes you
have to do.

He probably chose the right data type for text, i.e. string, and
probably does not have to make a lot of changes to that at all.

In the end, being "clever" by using s specific string type, like your
UTF-8String did you no good. On the contrary. You are stuck with it. Or
you must be prepared to change a few things to turn it into "string".
And no, "I have no time" is no good excuse. You could have known from
the beginning.

There is nothing clever about it. It is about using right tool for the job.
When dealing with UTF-8 encoded data that was UTF8String.

And no I could not have known that UTF8String will become extinct in
some compilers. There was absolutely no reason for that. UTF-8 encoded
data exists on all platforms, UTF-8 IS Unicode.

--
Dalija Prasnikar
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: XE 10 - Bugfixes and Subscription Questions  
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  Posted: Sep 11, 2015 4:24 AM   in response to: Dalija Prasnikar in response to: Dalija Prasnikar
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:

In the end, being "clever" by using s specific string type, like
your UTF-8String did you no good. On the contrary. You are stuck
with it. Or you must be prepared to change a few things to turn it
into "string". And no, "I have no time" is no good excuse. You
could have known from the beginning.

There is nothing clever about it. It is about using right tool for
the job.

Indeed. And you did not. And I wrote "clever", in quotes.
--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"A [pseudo]random number generator is much like sex: when it's
good it's wonderful, and when it's bad it's still pretty good."
-- G. Marsaglia
Brian Hamilton ...

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Registered: 10/14/04
Re: XE 10 - Bugfixes and Subscription Questions  
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  Posted: Sep 11, 2015 10:10 PM   in response to: Dalija Prasnikar in response to: Dalija Prasnikar
for my situation
there has been some changes needed, namely to do with pchar to pansichar, for serial data
and some other changes to do with unicode
but I had to make that change when using XE6 and windows use anyway...so was the change was made there, it was done already for the other platforms
but that was just for my situation, obviously others will be affected differently....but just because you or others have trouble does not mean everyone does...sort of thing...
Dalija Prasnikar

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Re: XE 10 - Bugfixes and Subscription Questions  
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  Posted: Sep 13, 2015 1:07 AM   in response to: Brian Hamilton ... in response to: Brian Hamilton ...
Brian Hamilton Hamilton wrote:
for my situation
there has been some changes needed, namely to do with pchar to pansichar, for serial data
and some other changes to do with unicode
but I had to make that change when using XE6 and windows use anyway...so was the change was made there, it was done already for the other platforms

I made my Unicode move a long time ago with D2010. And it was rather easy move.
I moved from D7 where I was already using UTF8String as base data type in my library.

but that was just for my situation, obviously others will be affected differently....but just because you or others have trouble does not mean everyone does...sort of thing...

Of course, things are different for different people. I have never implied that
everyone needs 8-bit strings and that this is showstopper for all devs.

--
Dalija Prasnikar
Rudy Velthuis (...


Posts: 7,731
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Re: XE 10 - Bugfixes and Subscription Questions  
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  Posted: Sep 10, 2015 4:12 PM   in response to: Dan Barclay in response to: Dan Barclay
Dan Barclay wrote:

Dalija Prasnikar wrote:
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:
That's nonsense. It is very well possible to develop for Android
without 8 bit strings, in Delphi. If you say you didn't WANT to,
OK, and therefore chose to use Windows tablets, fine. That is
your decision.

You do understand the concept of time, do you?

Of course you do understand that you are talking to a crowd of people
who do not understand the concept of maintaining existing code as a
business asset.

And we soon find out what kind of code you mean:

They also don't appreciate developers who use a tool
to its fullest extent, encoding binary data into text in their own
way.

ROTFL!

So now abusing strings to contain binary data is called "using the tool
to its fullest extent"? LOL!

And actually, no, it is the opposite. Strings are simply the wrong tool
for the job. So you avoid the proper tools that exist in the wider
extent, which means you are "NOT using the tool to its fullest extent".

<shaking head>

Why don't you just say "Yes, I know that this is a hack, but it works
for me and I won't change it unless there is no alternative."? That
would be honest and people would respect you for such a statement. And
it makes you look much better than when you make such apologetic
statements like the above.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"The crimes of the U.S. throughout the world have been
systematic, constant, clinical, remorseless, and fully
documented but nobody cares to talk about them."
-- Harold Pinter
Quentin Correll


Posts: 2,412
Registered: 12/1/99
Re: XE 10 - Bugfixes and Subscription Questions  
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  Posted: Sep 11, 2015 1:00 PM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy,

| <shaking head>
|
| Why don't you just say "Yes, I know that this is a hack, but it works
| for me and I won't change it unless there is no alternative."? That
| would be honest and people would respect you for such a statement. And
| it makes you look much better than when you make such apologetic
| statements like the above.

Well said.

--

Q -- XanaNews 1.19.1.372 - 2015-09-11 13:00:08
Dan Barclay

Posts: 889
Registered: 11/9/03
Re: XE 10 - Bugfixes and Subscription Questions  
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  Posted: Sep 11, 2015 3:05 PM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:
Dan Barclay wrote:

Dalija Prasnikar wrote:
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:
That's nonsense. It is very well possible to develop for Android
without 8 bit strings, in Delphi. If you say you didn't WANT to,
OK, and therefore chose to use Windows tablets, fine. That is
your decision.

You do understand the concept of time, do you?

Of course you do understand that you are talking to a crowd of people
who do not understand the concept of maintaining existing code as a
business asset.

And we soon find out what kind of code you mean:

They also don't appreciate developers who use a tool
to its fullest extent, encoding binary data into text in their own
way.

ROTFL!

So now abusing

You misspelled "using"? Or maybe you're a graduate of Donald Trump school of charm?

strings to contain binary data is called "using the tool
to its fullest extent"? LOL!

As a matter of fact, yes. The fact that it worked (works) well is evidence that I used it to its fullest extent. There was no reasonable way to handle multidimension arrays of "bytestrings" or whatever you choose to call them. I doubt that has changed (I haven't heard of it) but since I'm still on XE2 I'm not certain. <shrug>

And actually, no, it is the opposite. Strings are simply the wrong tool
for the job.

I believe you have proved a couple of my statements... starting with "If you don't do it their way, you are not allowed."

So you avoid the proper tools that exist in the wider
extent, which means you are "NOT using the tool to its fullest extent".

OK Donald, so I am "one of the stupid people". I confess. Show me how to place binary data into a two dimensional dynamic array. Pass that array into a procedure as a var parameter, find the tag #13#10#56 in element [5,7] and remove the eight bytes following the tag and move them into a double. Clear element [5,8] to an empty. Add (concatenate) another "bytestring" to element [5,9] and return the array.

Why don't you just say "Yes, I know that this is a hack, but it works
for me and I won't change it unless there is no alternative."? That
would be honest and people would respect you for such a statement. And
it makes you look much better than when you make such apologetic
statements like the above.

That is quite a statement to make, without knowing what the job is or how it was used. Let me know how to deal with the effort above and I'll have it covered.

The subject was reusable code, which you seem to have forgot in your zeal to label others as less than intelligent.

The part of your statement "won't change it unless there is no alternative" seems to gloss over that point. If there is no alternative but to change existing code, then the code is by definition NOT reusable.

Reusing code means, uhhh... using code again without rewriting it. It's kind of important to many people, if not to you.

Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"The crimes of the U.S. throughout the world have been
systematic, constant, clinical, remorseless, and fully
documented but nobody cares to talk about them."
-- Harold Pinter

FWIW, we could more easily communicate if it weren't for the U.S. We'd all be speaking German, and the EU would not exist. Just so we're clear, if you want politics in your sig to be ignored then don't put them there. You might as well have typed the comment yourself as far as I am concerned.

Dan
Rudy Velthuis (...


Posts: 7,731
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Re: XE 10 - Bugfixes and Subscription Questions [Edit]  
Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this thread Reply
  Posted: Sep 13, 2015 11:29 PM   in response to: Dan Barclay in response to: Dan Barclay
Dan Barclay wrote:

Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:
Dan Barclay wrote:

Dalija Prasnikar wrote:
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:
That's nonsense. It is very well possible to develop for
Android without 8 bit strings, in Delphi. If you say you
didn't WANT to, OK, and therefore chose to use Windows
tablets, fine. That is your decision.

You do understand the concept of time, do you?

Of course you do understand that you are talking to a crowd of
people who do not understand the concept of maintaining existing
code as a business asset.

And we soon find out what kind of code you mean:

They also don't appreciate developers who use a tool
to its fullest extent, encoding binary data into text in their own
way.

ROTFL!

So now abusing

You misspelled "using"? Or maybe you're a graduate of Donald Trump
school of charm?

No misspelling. You abuse strings for a purpose that may have been
convenient and even "clever" in the old TP days, but not since
dynarrays were introduced. In other words, a hack that was never
corrected.

strings to contain binary data is called "using the tool
to its fullest extent"? LOL!

As a matter of fact, yes.

No, it is not. You use something that may have been necesary in the
old TP days, but now the "extent" of the language offers many more
possibilities which you obviously don't use. So you don't use it to its
fullest extent. You keep on using old tricks.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Over the centuries, mankind has tried many ways of combating the forces
of evil... prayer, fasting, good works and so on. Up until Doom, no one
seemed to have thought about the double-barrel shotgun. Eat leaden
death, demon..."
-- Terry Pratchett
Free Dorfman

Posts: 139
Registered: 2/4/12
Re: XE 10 - Bugfixes and Subscription Questions  
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  Posted: Sep 18, 2015 1:12 PM   in response to: Dan Barclay in response to: Dan Barclay
moved to below (don't know how to delete, sorry).
Rudy Velthuis (...


Posts: 7,731
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Re: XE 10 - Bugfixes and Subscription Questions [Edit]  
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  Posted: Sep 18, 2015 1:53 PM   in response to: Dan Barclay in response to: Dan Barclay
Dan Barclay wrote:

The part of your statement "won't change it unless there is no
alternative" seems to gloss over that point. If there is no
alternative but to change existing code, then the code is by
definition NOT reusable.

Reusing code means, uhhh... using code again without rewriting it.

So, be honest and simply say: "yes, it is a hack but I am not going to
rewrite it.". Don't pretend it is "using the language to its fullest
extent" (it is the opposite) or anything else glorious or interesting
or a coding principle like code re-use.

Hacks are not reusable and should never be. Hacks are fragile (bound to
break) and should be corrected as soon as possible. So don't talk about
"code reuse" and other good coding principles. Stop justifying it. It
was a hack, and hacks are necessary sometimes. But at the time of
Delphi 4 (or earlier?) the language was extended, and you had better
tools.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Just because bulldozers are used to build highways doesn't mean
bulldozers are the best way to travel on a highway."
-- Danny Thorpe in borland.public.delphi.non-technical
Rudy Velthuis (...


Posts: 7,731
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Re: XE 10 - Bugfixes and Subscription Questions [Edit]  
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  Posted: Sep 30, 2015 5:28 AM   in response to: Dan Barclay in response to: Dan Barclay
Dan Barclay wrote:

"The crimes of the U.S. throughout the world have been
systematic, constant, clinical, remorseless, and fully
documented but nobody cares to talk about them."
-- Harold Pinter

FWIW, we could more easily communicate if it weren't for the U.S.
We'd all be speaking German, and the EU would not exist.

I doubt it. The US did not win the war single-handedly. Many other
countries were involved. Without the US, it might have taken a few
years longer, though.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"A camel is a horse designed by a committee" -- Unknown
Rudy Velthuis (...


Posts: 7,731
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Re: XE 10 - Bugfixes and Subscription Questions  
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  Posted: Sep 4, 2015 4:39 AM   in response to: Dalija Prasnikar in response to: Dalija Prasnikar
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:

You will not get bug fixes if you are not on subscription.

Actually, for XE8, you got some bug fixes even if you were not on
subscription. Just not all.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"2 + 2 = 5, for extremely large values of 2." -- unknown
Dalija Prasnikar

Posts: 2,325
Registered: 11/9/99
Re: XE 10 - Bugfixes and Subscription Questions  
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  Posted: Sep 4, 2015 5:20 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:

You will not get bug fixes if you are not on subscription.

Actually, for XE8, you got some bug fixes even if you were not on
subscription. Just not all.

No RTL/VCL/FMX fixes. All that was included was

- Community toolbar
- iOS 8 simulator fix
- Several files missing from the initial XE8 delivery

For instance regression bug with TList<T>.Insert was not included...

--
Dalija Prasnikar
Rudy Velthuis (...


Posts: 7,731
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Re: XE 10 - Bugfixes and Subscription Questions  
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  Posted: Sep 4, 2015 5:31 AM   in response to: Dalija Prasnikar in response to: Dalija Prasnikar
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:

Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:

You will not get bug fixes if you are not on subscription.

Actually, for XE8, you got some bug fixes even if you were not on
subscription. Just not all.

No RTL/VCL/FMX fixes. All that was included was

- Community toolbar
- iOS 8 simulator fix
- Several files missing from the initial XE8 delivery

For instance regression bug with TList<T>.Insert was not included...

Sure. But it invalidates your "you will not get bug fixes". You don't
know.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"People who think they know everything greatly annoy those of
us who do."
Dalija Prasnikar

Posts: 2,325
Registered: 11/9/99
Re: XE 10 - Bugfixes and Subscription Questions  
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  Posted: Sep 4, 2015 5:43 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:

Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:

You will not get bug fixes if you are not on subscription.

Actually, for XE8, you got some bug fixes even if you were not on
subscription. Just not all.

No RTL/VCL/FMX fixes. All that was included was

- Community toolbar
- iOS 8 simulator fix
- Several files missing from the initial XE8 delivery

For instance regression bug with TList<T>.Insert was not included...

Sure. But it invalidates your "you will not get bug fixes". You don't
know.

It does not invalidate my statement, bug fixes that you might but most
likely will not get (only bug fixe was for iOS simulator) does not count as
you will get bug fixes. If you cannot count that you will get bug fixes even
for serious issues and regressions, then you cannot count that you will get
bug fixes. Period.

Telling anyone that he will get bug fixes if he does not purchase subscription
would be huge lie. He MIGHT get some, but he MIGHT NOT get any. If
you like taking chances and playing lottery that is fine...

--
Dalija Prasnikar
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: XE 10 - Bugfixes and Subscription Questions  
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  Posted: Sep 6, 2015 11:29 PM   in response to: Dalija Prasnikar in response to: Dalija Prasnikar
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:

Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:

Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:

You will not get bug fixes if you are not on subscription.

Actually, for XE8, you got some bug fixes even if you were not
on subscription. Just not all.

No RTL/VCL/FMX fixes. All that was included was

- Community toolbar
- iOS 8 simulator fix
- Several files missing from the initial XE8 delivery

For instance regression bug with TList<T>.Insert was not
included...

Sure. But it invalidates your "you will not get bug fixes". You
don't know.

It does not invalidate my statement

Yes, it does.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"The best time I ever had with Joan Crawford was when I pushed
her down the stairs in 'Whatever Happened to Baby Jane?'"
-- Bette Davis
Dalija Prasnikar

Posts: 2,325
Registered: 11/9/99
Re: XE 10 - Bugfixes and Subscription Questions  
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  Posted: Sep 7, 2015 1:56 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:


It does not invalidate my statement

Yes, it does.

No it does not... and now we are trapped in infinite loop ;-)

--
Dalija Prasnikar
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: XE 10 - Bugfixes and Subscription Questions  
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  Posted: Sep 7, 2015 3:03 AM   in response to: Dalija Prasnikar in response to: Dalija Prasnikar
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:

Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:


It does not invalidate my statement

Yes, it does.

No it does not... and now we are trapped in infinite loop ;-)

No, we're not. <g>

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one."
-- Albert Einstein
Dale Barnes

Posts: 2
Registered: 11/16/99
Re: XE 10 - Bugfixes and Subscription Questions  
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  Posted: Sep 11, 2015 8:49 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:

Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:


It does not invalidate my statement

Yes, it does.

No it does not... and now we are trapped in infinite loop ;-)

No, we're not. <g>

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one."
-- Albert Einstein

I have also been with Delphi since the CPM days and use to upgrade every version to help keep it alive but like others, the huge cost of the upgrades and components prevented me from upgrading each time. Now I have XE5 was considering making the move to 10 but learning from our sales rep that starting in Jan (est) that all new purchases will require you to purchase subscription period. Also to add more expense, I use to be able to upgrade my components on a much cheaper basis but just with Raize Components they just purchased, will cost me 299.00 a year to keep it updated where it was less than half that cost per year. With all the increased costs, not sure if I can continue with Rad Studio. Heck I still have a major app written in D7 that I still support that we have held off upgrading since we are not sure if we will stay with Delphi. I love the product but to spend almost 5k for the upgrade and first year of subscription then a continued large cost of all the subscriptions, make it harder for some (at least me). But as my sales person said, it is the model that the company follows. :)
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: XE 10 - Bugfixes and Subscription Questions  
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  Posted: Sep 13, 2015 11:32 PM   in response to: Dale Barnes in response to: Dale Barnes
Dale Barnes wrote:
I have also been with Delphi since the CPM days and use to upgrade
every version to help keep it alive but like others, the huge cost of
the upgrades and components prevented me from upgrading each time.
Now I have XE5 was considering making the move to 10 but learning
from our sales rep that starting in Jan (est) that all new purchases
will require you to purchase subscription period.

Vadim has shown us that you can't always trust sales reps. <g>

But even I, as a hobbyist, would take the subscription. It is cheaper,
in the end. But only if you use it as, well, a subscription.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"[A book by Henry James] is like a church lit but without a
congregation to distract you, with every light and line
focused on the high altar. And on the altar, very reverently
placed, intensely there, is a dead kitten, an eggshell, a
bit of string." -- H.G. Wells on Henry James
Dmitriy Kuzmits...

Posts: 1
Registered: 11/14/08
Re: XE 10 - Bugfixes and Subscription Questions  
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  Posted: Sep 11, 2015 8:32 AM   in response to: Adam Hair in response to: Adam Hair
As a smaller developer I tend to skip a few major versions between updates. This is both due to a mixture of cost (moreso 3rd party components - not just Delphi), as well as being able to release well tested and stable applications. (Knowing what I'm working with and getting a stable product out having used that IDE for over a year). As such, a subscription will actually cost me more in the long run than paying for new versions as I require them because if I upgrade and work with XE10 it's likely I will stay with XE10 for a few years before upgrading again.

I do it the similar way, skip 2-3 major versions then upgrade. It seems that this approach doesn't work anymore. All major Delphi releases are buggy. An as we don't receive any updates without paying more money, getting new releases doesn't make any sense.

My mistake was that I've purchased D10 Upgrade (from XE6) couple of days ago, without reading the update terms.

Using it for 10 minutes with the existing project, I already faced some bugs:
1. D10 advertisemend said that the dialogs are now styled. No, they are not: comboboxes and lists still have white background: www.djsoft.net/images/nostyle.png , and select directory dialog has two scroll bars: http://www.djsoft.net/images/scrollbars.png - I don't understand, didn't they notice it? How can they release when it simply doesn't work???
2. When styled VCL app is closed, madExcept shows handle leaks, which lead to Vcl.Styles unit: they allocate DC handles without releasing them. Was it that hard to use any resource leak reporting tool to test VCL/RTL code?

It seems they do not put much effort in testing and quality. And with their kind of update policy, it seems they don't need to. D10 dvertisement said that QRS (quality, reliability, stability) are their main goals - lie.

I think of taking my money back. I just purchased an update and I don't intend to pay almost the same price again to get a bug fix, just to make the features I paid for actually work. It looks like false advertisement and scam to me.
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: XE 10 - Bugfixes and Subscription Questions [Edit]  
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  Posted: Sep 13, 2015 11:33 PM   in response to: Dmitriy Kuzmits... in response to: Dmitriy Kuzmits...
Dmitriy Kuzmitskiy wrote:

I do it the similar way, skip 2-3 major versions then upgrade. It
seems that this approach doesn't work anymore. All major Delphi
releases are buggy.

That leads me to the question: What are major and what are minor
releases?

And all software is buggy.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"The history of war is the history of powerful individuals
willing to sacrifice thousands upon thousands of other people's
lives for personal gains."
-- Michael Rivero
Van Swofford

Posts: 397
Registered: 6/28/03
Re: XE 10 - Bugfixes and Subscription Questions [Edit]  
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  Posted: Sep 18, 2015 10:11 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:

And all software is buggy.

But not all buggies are software. :-)

--
Cheers,
Van

"Good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad
judgment." - Will Rogers
Rudy Velthuis (...


Posts: 7,731
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Re: XE 10 - Bugfixes and Subscription Questions [Edit]  
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  Posted: Sep 18, 2015 10:12 AM   in response to: Van Swofford in response to: Van Swofford
Van Swofford wrote:

Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:

And all software is buggy.

But not all buggies are software. :-)

LOL!

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"The way to find what the mainstream will do tomorrow is to
associate with the lunatic fringe today."
-- Jean-Louis Gassee
Free Dorfman

Posts: 139
Registered: 2/4/12
Re: XE 10 - Bugfixes and Subscription Questions [Edit]  
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  Posted: Sep 18, 2015 1:18 PM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Dan Barclay wrote:

Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"The crimes of the U.S. throughout the world have been
systematic, constant, clinical, remorseless, and fully
documented but nobody cares to talk about them."
-- Harold Pinter

FWIW, we could more easily communicate if it weren't for the U.S. We'd all be speaking German, and the EU would not exist.

Dan

Dan,

Any honest, objective analysis would agree with BOTH of the above statements (although yours is a bit more, um, conjecture-y; while Rudy's [Pinter's] is arguably a bit more hyperbole-esque). Politics today (as long as you started us down this path) is way too often "I am right. And if you don't agree with me 100%, then you are wrong. Period." It reminds me a lot of the tone of this thread <g> which is the only reason I'm making this, uh, observation.
Rudy Velthuis (...


Posts: 7,731
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Re: XE 10 - Bugfixes and Subscription Questions [Edit] [Edit]  
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  Posted: Sep 18, 2015 1:44 PM   in response to: Free Dorfman in response to: Free Dorfman
Free Dorfman wrote:

FWIW, we could more easily communicate if it weren't for the U.S.
We'd all be speaking German, and the EU would not exist.

Dan

Dan,

Any honest...

Hmmm... your reply was posted a reply to me, but nothing in your quotes
has anything to do with what I wrote. I did not even have that sig, in
this subthread.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"I hope life isn't a big joke ... because I don't get it."
-- Unknown
Free Dorfman

Posts: 139
Registered: 2/4/12
Re: XE 10 - Bugfixes and Subscription Questions [Edit] [Edit]  
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  Posted: Sep 18, 2015 2:24 PM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:

Hmmm... your reply was posted a reply to me, but nothing in your quotes
has anything to do with what I wrote. I did not even have that sig, in
this subthread.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"I hope life isn't a big joke ... because I don't get it."
-- Unknown

Sorry 'bout that. (Should've included your sig as well). I wanted my reply at the bottom. Not sure how to do that otherwise. Is there a way?
Rudy Velthuis (...


Posts: 7,731
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Re: XE 10 - Bugfixes and Subscription Questions [Edit] [Edit] [Edit]  
Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this thread Reply
  Posted: Sep 19, 2015 3:55 AM   in response to: Free Dorfman in response to: Free Dorfman
Free Dorfman wrote:

Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:

Hmmm... your reply was posted a reply to me, but nothing in your
quotes has anything to do with what I wrote. I did not even have
that sig, in this subthread.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"I hope life isn't a big joke ... because I don't get it."
-- Unknown

Sorry 'bout that. (Should've included your sig as well). I wanted my
reply at the bottom. Not sure how to do that otherwise. Is there a
way?

No. You shouldn't. It should be sorted (as reply) under the post to
which you reply. Anything else is terribly confusing.

And in a reply, you should NOT include the sig of the message to which
you reply. Anything below the line with "-- " should not be quoted.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Without censorship, things can get terribly confused in the
public mind."
-- General William Westmoreland
Dan Barclay

Posts: 889
Registered: 11/9/03
Re: XE 10 - Bugfixes and Subscription Questions [Edit] [Edit]  
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  Posted: Sep 21, 2015 9:08 AM   in response to: Free Dorfman in response to: Free Dorfman
Free Dorfman wrote:

Dan Barclay wrote:

Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"The crimes of the U.S. throughout the world have been
systematic, constant, clinical, remorseless, and fully
documented but nobody cares to talk about them."
-- Harold Pinter

FWIW, we could more easily communicate if it weren't for the U.S.
We'd all be speaking German, and the EU would not exist.

Dan

Dan,

Any honest, objective analysis would agree with BOTH of the above
statements (although yours is a bit more, um, conjecture-y; while
Rudy's [Pinter's] is arguably a bit more hyperbole-esque). Politics

No, an objective analysis would not necessarily agree with both (or
necessarily either) statements. It is as likely we'd be speaking
Russian or Japanese. In any case, neither of those statements was the
point.

The point, which I think the intended recipient understood, is that
political posts don't belong in this forum. The reason he understood
that was because he saw the entire comment I made, rather than your
cherry picked (snipped) version.

Using XN with their quote file causes you to post a combination of
socialist and AntiAmerican comments. If you feel that way, use the
quotes in some other forum. This is not the place for such foolishness.

If you are using an automatic quote file, which adds to your signature,
you are credited with its content by those who read it as if you wrote
it yourself. Having it in your signiture does not excuse your behavior.

I use XN, but deleted the quote file after I determined it couldn't be
cleaned up appropriately. I was close to deleting XN itself on account
of it.

YMMV, but keep your politics at home.

Dan
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