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Thread: Microsoft Visual Studio Code



Permlink Replies: 28 - Last Post: May 8, 2015 2:42 AM Last Post By: Abdullah Kauchali
Miroslaw Rogula

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Microsoft Visual Studio Code
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  Posted: May 1, 2015 7:54 AM
Hi
I read about Microsoft Studio Code. And I wonder how it will affect the
software market. Especially on Embarcadero. I will use my Delphi XE6 but I
start to learn Miscrosoft Studio Code because I see future in this software.
And it is free.

Regards
MR_FLASH
Mirosław Rogula



www.fakturyok.pl
Brandon Staggs

Posts: 683
Registered: 3/3/01
Re: Microsoft Visual Studio Code
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  Posted: May 1, 2015 9:11 AM   in response to: Miroslaw Rogula in response to: Miroslaw Rogula
"Miroslaw Rogula" wrote on Fri, 1 May 2015 07:54:17 -0700:

I read about Microsoft Studio Code. And I wonder how it will affect the
software market. Especially on Embarcadero. I will use my Delphi XE6 but I
start to learn Miscrosoft Studio Code because I see future in this software.
And it is free.

So is Sublime Text, and it offers similar features. I suspect VS Code
is superior in many ways, but it is not a full fledged IDE, or at
least it doesn't seem to be so from my cursory look at their info.

Delphi is a hard case to make these days. I use it because I love it
and I have 15 years of legacy development in it. But would I start
with Delphi today, if I were where I was 15 years ago? Absolutely
not. There is too much lock-in, too much proprietary, and too much
not supported.

You ask how VC Code will affect the software market. I presume you
mean development. I don't think much will change -- most programmers
these days are used to having lots of choices and most of them are
free. VS Code is just another choice everyone except Delphi
developers have. (Right now VS Code supports "any" language.
Apparently that does not include Object Pascal. LOL.)

--
Brandon Staggs
StudyLamp Software LLC
http://www.studylamp.com
Brandon Staggs

Posts: 683
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Re: Microsoft Visual Studio Code
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  Posted: May 1, 2015 9:25 AM   in response to: Brandon Staggs in response to: Brandon Staggs
"Brandon Staggs" wrote on Fri, 1 May 2015 09:11:10 -0700:

So is Sublime Text,

Ooops, I forgot it costs a little bit.

--
Brandon Staggs
StudyLamp Software LLC
http://www.studylamp.com
Abdullah Kauchali

Posts: 28
Registered: 6/30/00
Re: Microsoft Visual Studio Code
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  Posted: May 2, 2015 9:47 AM   in response to: Brandon Staggs in response to: Brandon Staggs
Brandon Staggs wrote:
... But would I start
with Delphi today, if I were where I was 15 years ago? Absolutely
not. There is too much lock-in, too much proprietary, and too much
not supported.

Hi Brandon

If you were to start a Windows only desktop application project today, what framework and IDE would you use. And why?

Best wishes,

AK

Edited by: Abdullah Kauchali on May 2, 2015 9:51 AM
Brandon Staggs

Posts: 683
Registered: 3/3/01
Re: Microsoft Visual Studio Code [Edit]
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  Posted: May 4, 2015 10:27 AM   in response to: Abdullah Kauchali in response to: Abdullah Kauchali
"Abdullah Kauchali" wrote on Sat, 2 May 2015 12:11:12 -0700:

Brandon Staggs wrote:
... But would I start
with Delphi today, if I were where I was 15 years ago? Absolutely
not. There is too much lock-in, too much proprietary, and too much
not supported.

Hi Brandon

If you were to start a Windows only desktop application project today, what framework and IDE would you use. And why?

I would still use Delphi, because I have tons of code, libraries, and
experience with it. (You did specify Windows-only desktop.)

If I were where I was when I first chose Delphi 15 years ago (lots of
time, no significant prior investment in tools or code), and had to
make the choice anew today, I would just go with Visual Studio.

--
Brandon Staggs
StudyLamp Software LLC
http://www.studylamp.com

Mike Margerum

Posts: 590
Registered: 12/1/99
Re: Microsoft Visual Studio Code [Edit]
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  Posted: May 4, 2015 1:21 PM   in response to: Brandon Staggs in response to: Brandon Staggs
If I were where I was when I first chose Delphi 15 years ago (lots of
time, no significant prior investment in tools or code), and had to
make the choice anew today, I would just go with Visual Studio.


I pretty much shelved any plans of using C# for the last 5 years, but
after the Build conference I can see Microsoft really is sincere about
open source and supporting other platforms. Once windows 10 ships I
plan on playing around with some of their multi platform client code.

I also like that they have removed the IIS dependency from ASP.net

The thing about Delphi is I really like FireDac, VCL, and the awesome
3rd party libraries.

Abdullah Kauchali

Posts: 28
Registered: 6/30/00
Re: Microsoft Visual Studio Code [Edit]
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  Posted: May 4, 2015 2:59 PM   in response to: Brandon Staggs in response to: Brandon Staggs
Brandon Staggs wrote:
I would still use Delphi, because I have tons of code, libraries, and
experience with it. (You did specify Windows-only desktop.)

Yip. Desktop (LOB-type) Windows only application.

If we had to use Visual Studio, we would have to choose from these three available desktop UI frameworks:

1. MFC
2. WinForms
3. WPF

Why would any of the above be an advantage over 32/64 bit VCL?

If I were where I was when I first chose Delphi 15 years ago (lots of
time, no significant prior investment in tools or code), and had to
make the choice anew today, I would just go with Visual Studio.

15 years ago, with which desktop UI framework would we be working?
Ronald Klitsche

Posts: 326
Registered: 8/26/01
Re: Microsoft Visual Studio Code [Edit]
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  Posted: May 5, 2015 12:24 AM   in response to: Abdullah Kauchali in response to: Abdullah Kauchali
15 years ago, with which desktop UI framework would we be working?

Not only the framework, do you know a Microsoft
development language which is supported over 15 Year?
Dan Barclay

Posts: 889
Registered: 11/9/03
Re: Microsoft Visual Studio Code [Edit]
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  Posted: May 5, 2015 8:44 AM   in response to: Ronald Klitsche in response to: Ronald Klitsche
Ronald Klitsche wrote:
15 years ago, with which desktop UI framework would we be working?

Not only the framework, do you know a Microsoft
development language which is supported over 15 Year?

Yes, Microsoft Basic (R.I.P.). I have code written under CP/M and TRSDOS that sill compiles in VB5/6

Oh, said "is" as in present tense. MS Basic "was" as in past tense, it is no longer being supported.

No, I don't know of any.

Dan
Ronald Klitsche

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Re: Microsoft Visual Studio Code [Edit]
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  Posted: May 5, 2015 12:28 AM   in response to: Abdullah Kauchali in response to: Abdullah Kauchali
15 years ago, with which desktop UI framework would we be working?

Not only the framework, do you know a Microsoft
development language which is supported over 15 Year?
Mike Margerum

Posts: 590
Registered: 12/1/99
Re: Microsoft Visual Studio Code [Edit]
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  Posted: May 6, 2015 4:46 AM   in response to: Ronald Klitsche in response to: Ronald Klitsche
On 5/5/15 3:28 AM, Ronald Klitsche wrote:
15 years ago, with which desktop UI framework would we be working?

Not only the framework, do you know a Microsoft
development language which is supported over 15 Year?

or a database access layer >.<

Now i hear they are back to ODBC.
Brandon Staggs

Posts: 683
Registered: 3/3/01
Re: Microsoft Visual Studio Code [Edit]
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  Posted: May 5, 2015 4:21 PM   in response to: Abdullah Kauchali in response to: Abdullah Kauchali
"Abdullah Kauchali" wrote on Mon, 4 May 2015 14:59:46 -0700:

If I were where I was when I first chose Delphi 15 years ago (lots of
time, no significant prior investment in tools or code), and had to
make the choice anew today, I would just go with Visual Studio.

15 years ago, with which desktop UI framework would we be working?

I think you are missing my point, or I am just not understanding what
you are asking me. I am not a shill for MS tools and I love using
Delphi. It's just not an easy case to make for someone not already
using Delphi today, for any platform, IMO.

--
Brandon Staggs
StudyLamp Software LLC
http://www.studylamp.com
Abdullah Kauchali

Posts: 28
Registered: 6/30/00
Re: Microsoft Visual Studio Code [Edit]
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  Posted: May 6, 2015 2:28 PM   in response to: Brandon Staggs in response to: Brandon Staggs
Brandon Staggs wrote:
"Abdullah Kauchali" wrote on Mon, 4 May 2015 14:59:46 -0700:
I am not a shill for MS tools

Not saying that. :-)

and I love using
Delphi. It's just not an easy case to make for someone not already
using Delphi today, for any platform, IMO.

The point is 15 years ago, we would have to choose from these:

1. MFC
2. Shiny new (untested) .NET UI framework - WinForms.
3. VB6 (already officially canned at that stage)

We all know how lovely it is to work in MFC and Visual C++, so let's just forget about that choice. WinForms? That's now in maintenance mode. No new APIs will be added. Officially.

So, if you asked me whether we risked anything or lost out being on the Delphi side of the tool-chain, I'd say definitely not. I'd be very concerned, OTOH, with my legacy Winforms apps. WPF would have been a choice to migrate to, but, like many are now seeing, WPF seems to be losing steam from Microsoft too. I feel sorry for those who rewrote their WinForms apps in WPF.

It seems Microsoft is focusing heavily on HTML5. And I see the merit in this.
Quentin Correll


Posts: 2,412
Registered: 12/1/99
Re: Microsoft Visual Studio Code [Edit]
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  Posted: May 6, 2015 3:34 PM   in response to: Abdullah Kauchali in response to: Abdullah Kauchali
Abdullah,

| The point is 15 years ago, we would have to choose from these:
|
| 1. MFC
| 2. Shiny new (untested) .NET UI framework - WinForms.
| 3. VB6 (already officially canned at that stage)

You forgot Turbo Pascal! ;-)

--

Q -- XanaNews 1.19.1.372 - 2015-05-06 15:33:23
Abdullah Kauchali

Posts: 28
Registered: 6/30/00
Re: Microsoft Visual Studio Code [Edit]
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  Posted: May 7, 2015 5:50 AM   in response to: Quentin Correll in response to: Quentin Correll
Quentin Correll wrote:

Hi Quentin!

| 1. MFC
| 2. Shiny new (untested) .NET UI framework - WinForms.
| 3. VB6 (already officially canned at that stage)

You forgot Turbo Pascal! ;-)

Yeah, I was listing the Microsoft (Visual Studio) alternatives.
Quentin Correll


Posts: 2,412
Registered: 12/1/99
Re: Microsoft Visual Studio Code [Edit]
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  Posted: May 7, 2015 1:11 PM   in response to: Abdullah Kauchali in response to: Abdullah Kauchali
Abdullah,

| | You forgot Turbo Pascal! ;-)
|
| Yeah, I was listing the Microsoft (Visual Studio) alternatives.

Ah. I missed that. <g>

--

Q -- XanaNews 1.19.1.372 - 2015-05-07 13:10:41
Ronald Klitsche

Posts: 326
Registered: 8/26/01
Re: Microsoft Visual Studio Code [Edit]
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  Posted: May 7, 2015 3:31 AM   in response to: Abdullah Kauchali in response to: Abdullah Kauchali
It seems Microsoft is focusing heavily on HTML5. And I see the merit in
this.

And how long will the lifetime of HTML5?

If you came from WinForms, WPF & Co. how much code you can reuse
to write now application in JavaScript and HTML running in foreign browsers
and different browser versions?

Ronald
Abdullah Kauchali

Posts: 28
Registered: 6/30/00
Re: Microsoft Visual Studio Code [Edit]
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  Posted: May 7, 2015 6:06 AM   in response to: Ronald Klitsche in response to: Ronald Klitsche
Ronald Klitsche wrote:
And how long will the lifetime of HTML5?

I think HTML5 and JavaScript are here to stay. :-) It's hound-ugly to code in and CSS is just mentally brutal, yeah, but it's proven resilient for 20 years now. And the tools and frameworks are only just maturing. Javascript is so compelling for some, some are even using it on the server side (NodeJS).

If you came from WinForms, WPF & Co. how much code you can reuse
to write now application in JavaScript and HTML running in foreign browsers
and different browser versions?

None, unfortunately. If it were my choice, I'd definitely consider HTML5/JavaScript as a UI framework for any and all new projects. I surrendered in the last two years. :-)

Also, Delphi can play an important role now more than ever in the JavaScript -> REST -> Server stack with server-side tooling for Linux. The reason is simple: the JavaScript frameworks are now finally server-side agnostic*. All SPA JavaScript frameworks, for example, make no assumptions about server-side providers. Goodbye and good riddance server-side MVC! :-)

* Well, at least the most popular and/or important frameworks!
Mike Margerum

Posts: 590
Registered: 12/1/99
Re: Microsoft Visual Studio Code [Edit]
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  Posted: May 7, 2015 6:22 AM   in response to: Abdullah Kauchali in response to: Abdullah Kauchali
On 5/7/15 9:06 AM, Abdullah Kauchali wrote:
Ronald Klitsche wrote:
And how long will the lifetime of HTML5?

I think HTML5 and JavaScript are here to stay. :-) It's hound-ugly to code in and CSS is just mentally brutal, yeah, but it's proven resilient for 20 years now. And the tools and frameworks are only just maturing. Javascript is so compelling for some, some are even using it on the server side (NodeJS).

Writing HTML/CSS is a total slog, but conceptually Angular, React,
ember, Aurelia are a hell of a lot cleaner than anything you get out of
the box with Delphi.

The thing is the web is a really crappy experience for LOB CRUD apps you
use day in and day out.

So i'm trying to piece together some type of MVVM arch for Delphi.
Mike Margerum

Posts: 590
Registered: 12/1/99
Re: Microsoft Visual Studio Code [Edit]
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  Posted: May 7, 2015 6:24 AM   in response to: Abdullah Kauchali in response to: Abdullah Kauchali
On 5/7/15 9:06 AM, Abdullah Kauchali wrote:
Ronald Klitsche wrote:
And how long will the lifetime of HTML5?

I think HTML5 and JavaScript are here to stay. :-) It's hound-ugly to code in and CSS is just mentally brutal, yeah, but it's proven resilient for 20 years now. And the tools and frameworks are only just maturing. Javascript is so compelling for some, some are even using it on the server side (NodeJS).

Writing HTML/CSS is a total slog, but conceptually Angular, React,
ember, Aurelia are a hell of a lot cleaner than anything you get out of
the box with Delphi.

The thing is the web is a really crappy experience for LOB CRUD apps you
use day in and day out.

So i'm trying to piece together some type of MVVM arch for Delphi.
Mike Margerum

Posts: 590
Registered: 12/1/99
Re: Microsoft Visual Studio Code [Edit]
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  Posted: May 7, 2015 6:26 AM   in response to: Abdullah Kauchali in response to: Abdullah Kauchali
On 5/7/15 9:06 AM, Abdullah Kauchali wrote:
Ronald Klitsche wrote:
And how long will the lifetime of HTML5?

I think HTML5 and JavaScript are here to stay. :-) It's hound-ugly to code in and CSS is just mentally brutal, yeah, but it's proven resilient for 20 years now. And the tools and frameworks are only just maturing. Javascript is so compelling for some, some are even using it on the server side (NodeJS).

Writing HTML/CSS is a total slog, but conceptually Angular, React,
ember, Aurelia are a hell of a lot cleaner than anything you get out of
the box with Delphi.

The thing is the web is a really crappy experience for LOB CRUD apps you
use day in and day out.

So i'm trying to piece together some type of MVVM arch for Delphi.
Mike Margerum

Posts: 590
Registered: 12/1/99
Re: Microsoft Visual Studio Code [Edit]
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  Posted: May 7, 2015 6:28 AM   in response to: Abdullah Kauchali in response to: Abdullah Kauchali
On 5/7/15 9:06 AM, Abdullah Kauchali wrote:
Ronald Klitsche wrote:
And how long will the lifetime of HTML5?

I think HTML5 and JavaScript are here to stay. :-) It's hound-ugly to code in and CSS is just mentally brutal, yeah, but it's proven resilient for 20 years now. And the tools and frameworks are only just maturing. Javascript is so compelling for some, some are even using it on the server side (NodeJS).

Writing HTML/CSS is a total slog, but conceptually Angular, React,
ember, Aurelia are a hell of a lot cleaner than anything you get out of
the box with Delphi.

The thing is the web is a really crappy experience for LOB CRUD apps you
use day in and day out.

So i'm trying to piece together some type of MVVM arch for Delphi.
Matthew Jones

Posts: 337
Registered: 1/25/98
Re: Microsoft Visual Studio Code [Edit]
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  Posted: May 7, 2015 7:20 AM   in response to: Mike Margerum in response to: Mike Margerum
Mike Margerum wrote:

The thing is the web is a really crappy experience for LOB CRUD apps
you use day in and day out.

Look at Elevate WebBuilder, version 2 about to come out. "Delphi" for
the browser, high level language, all compiled to javascript so you
know the code is robust.

I'm moving my UI to this as standard now. Delphi is good for the
back-end still.
Mike Margerum

Posts: 590
Registered: 12/1/99
Re: Microsoft Visual Studio Code [Edit]
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  Posted: May 7, 2015 10:05 AM   in response to: Matthew Jones in response to: Matthew Jones
Look at Elevate WebBuilder, version 2 about to come out. "Delphi" for
the browser, high level language, all compiled to javascript so you
know the code is robust.

I'm moving my UI to this as standard now. Delphi is good for the
back-end still.

Sorry about the multiple posts. was getting a time out.

I am a EWB 1.x license holder and am waiting to see what 2.x looks like
before I upgrade. The new component model looks cool. But, it looks
like more a RAD approach than MVVM and we know where that leads...
Abdullah Kauchali

Posts: 28
Registered: 6/30/00
Re: Microsoft Visual Studio Code [Edit]
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  Posted: May 8, 2015 2:40 AM   in response to: Mike Margerum in response to: Mike Margerum
Mike Margerum wrote:
Writing HTML/CSS is a total slog, but conceptually Angular, React,
ember, Aurelia are a hell of a lot cleaner than anything you get out of
the box with Delphi.

Hmm, I disagree. Delphi has since version 1 a more consistent events, forms, object ownership architecture and a very successful TDataSource-TDataSet framework that third-party providers have worked with from day 1. But of course, we are comparing a Windows only (for the most part) and browser frameworks.

The thing is the web is a really crappy experience for LOB CRUD apps you
use day in and day out.

That's true.

So i'm trying to piece together some type of MVVM arch for Delphi.

For web apps, like ASP.NET MVC? I can see the point. For desktop apps, if you're reinventing an MVC variant instead of using TDataSource I'd say misuse/underuse of Delphi.

Edited by: Abdullah Kauchali on May 8, 2015 2:41 AM
Rudy Velthuis (...


Posts: 7,731
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: Microsoft Visual Studio Code [Edit]
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  Posted: May 7, 2015 11:36 PM   in response to: Ronald Klitsche in response to: Ronald Klitsche
Ronald Klitsche wrote:

It seems Microsoft is focusing heavily on HTML5. And I see the
merit in this.

And how long will the lifetime of HTML5?

Very long, AFAICT.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Nature does not hurry, yet everything is accomplished."
-- Lao tzu
Ralf Stocker

Posts: 121
Registered: 12/24/04
Re: Microsoft Visual Studio Code
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  Posted: May 1, 2015 10:46 AM   in response to: Miroslaw Rogula in response to: Miroslaw Rogula
I don't use MVSC, because it's not Pascal.

Miroslaw Rogula wrote:
Hi
I read about Microsoft Studio Code. And I wonder how it will affect the
software market. Especially on Embarcadero. I will use my Delphi XE6 but I
start to learn Miscrosoft Studio Code because I see future in this software.
And it is free.

Regards
MR_FLASH
Mirosław Rogula


www.fakturyok.pl
Robert Love

Posts: 155
Registered: 5/3/07
Re: Microsoft Visual Studio Code
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  Posted: May 5, 2015 7:46 PM   in response to: Miroslaw Rogula in response to: Miroslaw Rogula
Miroslaw Rogula wrote:
Hi
I read about Microsoft Studio Code. And I wonder how it will affect the
software market. Especially on Embarcadero. I will use my Delphi XE6 but I
start to learn Miscrosoft Studio Code because I see future in this software.
And it is free.

I installed it on my mac. Its a fairly nice editor, not sure if I will switch from my current set of editors.
It however is not a full IDE. It's a text editor with some debugging options.

You have to goto the command line and run scripts to create new project templates, or spend time embedding them into the tool yourself.

It's nice to have this as another tool but it does not replace your current IDE regardless of which one your using.
Christopher Wos...

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Registered: 11/26/12
Re: Microsoft Visual Studio Code
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  Posted: May 7, 2015 2:22 AM   in response to: Miroslaw Rogula in response to: Miroslaw Rogula
Using this little plugin you will have support for ObjectPascal.
https://github.com/Wosi/vs.language.objectpascal

DFM support is on the way.

Edited by: Christopher Wosinski on May 7, 2015 2:23 AM
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