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Thread: About the only thing I might like about Apple



Permlink Replies: 180 - Last Post: Oct 20, 2014 1:40 PM Last Post By: Kyle Miller
Konstantine Pou...

Posts: 128
Registered: 11/3/06
About the only thing I might like about Apple
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  Posted: Oct 7, 2014 1:03 PM
Well if this happens.

Rumor now says that new 12.5" iPad from Apple might support OSX.

http://www.businessinsider.com/the-jumbo-sized-ipad-may-run-os-x--heres-why-it-should-2014-10

As a developer I always hated those wall garden type mobile OS'es.
Kyle Miller

Posts: 115
Registered: 10/4/99
Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple
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  Posted: Oct 7, 2014 3:09 PM   in response to: Konstantine Pou... in response to: Konstantine Pou...
On 10/07/2014 03:03 PM, Konstantine Poukhov wrote:
Well if this happens.

Rumor now says that new 12.5" iPad from Apple might support OSX.

http://www.businessinsider.com/the-jumbo-sized-ipad-may-run-os-x--heres-why-it-should-2014-10

You can do this now by buying full blown Windows on a tablet.
http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2417564,00.asp

There's also Ubuntu on touch devices. ARM now, but x86 versions to come.
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Touch/Devices

Apple is introducing nothing new to the market.
Phillip Woon

Posts: 189
Registered: 9/30/99
Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple
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  Posted: Oct 7, 2014 10:38 PM   in response to: Kyle Miller in response to: Kyle Miller
Kyle Miller wrote:
On 10/07/2014 03:03 PM, Konstantine Poukhov wrote:
Well if this happens.

Rumor now says that new 12.5" iPad from Apple might support OSX.

http://www.businessinsider.com/the-jumbo-sized-ipad-may-run-os-x--heres-why-it-should-2014-10

You can do this now by buying full blown Windows on a tablet.
http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2417564,00.asp

There's also Ubuntu on touch devices. ARM now, but x86 versions to come.
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Touch/Devices

Apple is introducing nothing new to the market.

Right, but the Windows tablets are running. well... Windows.
Luigi Sandon

Posts: 353
Registered: 10/15/99
Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple
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  Posted: Oct 7, 2014 11:56 PM   in response to: Phillip Woon in response to: Phillip Woon
Right, but the Windows tablets are running. well... Windows.

Oh yes, it's so bad to be able to run all those Windows applications on a tablet...
Phillip Woon

Posts: 189
Registered: 9/30/99
Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple
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  Posted: Oct 8, 2014 5:34 AM   in response to: Luigi Sandon in response to: Luigi Sandon
Luigi Sandon wrote:
Right, but the Windows tablets are running. well... Windows.

Oh yes, it's so bad to be able to run all those Windows applications on a tablet...

Last I looked, Mac OS X had pretty much most of the same or equivalent or better programs than windows. The only thing that I would miss is running Delphi, but then I can use VMware. But you're right, Delphi is slow in a VM. Otherwise, Mac OS has Office, Adobe products, games, etc.... And it's a better OS than Windows.
Robert Triest

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Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple
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  Posted: Oct 8, 2014 6:15 AM   in response to: Phillip Woon in response to: Phillip Woon
or better programs than windows.
it's a better OS than Windows.
What do you mean by better programs and better OS?
Phillip Woon

Posts: 189
Registered: 9/30/99
Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple
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  Posted: Oct 8, 2014 7:23 AM   in response to: Robert Triest in response to: Robert Triest
Robert Triest wrote:
or better programs than windows.
it's a better OS than Windows.
What do you mean by better programs and better OS?

Video processing, graphic arts programs on the Mac are preferred by artists and movie types.
Dominique Willems

Posts: 591
Registered: 10/26/99
Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple
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  Posted: Oct 8, 2014 7:38 AM   in response to: Phillip Woon in response to: Phillip Woon
Phillip Woon wrote:
Video processing, graphic arts programs on the Mac are preferred by
artists and movie types.

What graphic arts programs work better on a Mac?

Just recently downloaded LightWorks, a video editing system used by
Hollywood. That application has been available on Windows since 2012
and only been made compatible with OS X last month.

I won't deny graphics artists decide more emotionally than logically,
and Apple plays into that, but to hear a developer claim this nonsense
is bewildering.
Nick Hodges

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Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple
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  Posted: Oct 8, 2014 8:06 AM   in response to: Dominique Willems in response to: Dominique Willems
Dominique Willems wrote:

I won't deny graphics artists decide more emotionally than logically,
and Apple plays into that, but to hear a developer claim this nonsense
is bewildering.

So you are arguing that Phillip's statement -- "Video processing,
graphic arts programs on the Mac are preferred by artists and movie
types." -- is incorrect?

It seems patently obvious to me that such a statement is true. It may
be irrational for them to so choose, but I think it is obvious that
they do choose as such.

--
Nick
Delphi Programming is Fun
Dominique Willems

Posts: 591
Registered: 10/26/99
Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple
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  Posted: Oct 8, 2014 9:11 AM   in response to: Nick Hodges in response to: Nick Hodges
Nick Hodges wrote:
So you are arguing that Phillip's statement -- "Video processing,
graphic arts programs on the Mac are preferred by artists and movie
types." -- is incorrect?

The response was both to that and his previous statement: "Last I
looked, Mac OS X had pretty much most of the same or equivalent or
better programs than windows." The "better" part is annoying.
Phillip Woon

Posts: 189
Registered: 9/30/99
Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple
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  Posted: Oct 8, 2014 10:21 AM   in response to: Dominique Willems in response to: Dominique Willems
Dominique Willems wrote:
Nick Hodges wrote:
So you are arguing that Phillip's statement -- "Video processing,
graphic arts programs on the Mac are preferred by artists and movie
types." -- is incorrect?

The response was both to that and his previous statement: "Last I
looked, Mac OS X had pretty much most of the same or equivalent or
better programs than windows." The "better" part is annoying.

They're "better" on Mac OS X because they've been on that platform longer. So why do these artist types prefer Macs?
Dominique Willems

Posts: 591
Registered: 10/26/99
Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple
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  Posted: Oct 8, 2014 1:41 PM   in response to: Phillip Woon in response to: Phillip Woon
Phillip Woon wrote:
They're "better" on Mac OS X because they've been on that platform
longer. So why do these artist types prefer Macs?

Didn't I mention LightWorks before? I thought I did. And no, none of
the very rare programs that were developed first for OS X are any
better than their Windows counterparts.

Didn't I mention emotion before? Most artists are driven by that and
lots of peer pressure (and quite a lot of expensive indoctrination).
Phillip Woon

Posts: 189
Registered: 9/30/99
Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple
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  Posted: Oct 8, 2014 2:05 PM   in response to: Dominique Willems in response to: Dominique Willems
Dominique Willems wrote:
Phillip Woon wrote:
They're "better" on Mac OS X because they've been on that platform
longer. So why do these artist types prefer Macs?

Didn't I mention LightWorks before? I thought I did. And no, none of
the very rare programs that were developed first for OS X are any
better than their Windows counterparts.

Didn't I mention emotion before? Most artists are driven by that and
lots of peer pressure (and quite a lot of expensive indoctrination).

Quality and quantity of apps boil down to market share of the machines. There are more Windows machines, so software developers concentrate on platforms where they can get the most bang for the buck. Even the quality might be influenced by market share. I maintain that Keynote is better than PowerPoint. I've used several apps on both platforms, and I see little difference. There are more games for Windows than the Mac; again, because of market share. The only thing I really use Windows for is Delphi and VS, and only for development. I prefer Safari over IE and Chrome, and of course, Safari on Windows is dead. The Chrome on Mac OS is on par with the one on Windows, but I use Safari on Mac OS, and Chrome on Windows. I currently have Office 2011 for Mac (I got it to be compatible with work). However, I do have a subscription for Office 365 loaded on 3 machines (and I can load it on 2 more). There is a version of Office 365 for Mac, but the 2011 version will suffice for now, as there is no Pages for Windows. (In my house I have 4 Windows PCs, and 2 Macs).

If Apple lowered the price of Macs to compete with PC's, you might see a shift in market share and apps for Mac OS would increase in numbers and quality. I used to be "anti-apple" up until about 5 years ago, and then I bought one. Try it, I dare you.
Dominique Willems

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Registered: 10/26/99
Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple
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  Posted: Oct 8, 2014 2:12 PM   in response to: Phillip Woon in response to: Phillip Woon
Phillip Woon wrote:
I used to be "anti-apple" up until about 5
years ago, and then I bought one. Try it, I dare you.

I would if you had made a case for it. But nothing you wrote is a
convincing argument. Because you think Keynote is better than
PowerPoint...?
Steve Thackery

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Registered: 4/29/06
Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple
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  Posted: Oct 9, 2014 1:19 AM   in response to: Phillip Woon in response to: Phillip Woon
Phillip Woon wrote:

I used to be "anti-apple" up until about 5 years ago, and then I
bought one. Try it, I dare you.

I have. I am underwhelmed. It seems AWFULLY similar to Windows. When
I first got it, it spent AGES downloading updates and patches (like
Windows). Most updates do not require a reboot, but some do (like
Windows). Every so often a prompt appears asking me for my password
(like Windows).

All the normal WIMP stuff is pretty much identical, as you'd expect.
It feels different, but no better or worse, having one menu bar for all
the open windows.

The OS X's Time Machine is WAY better than the equivalent in Windows.
The taskbar in Windows is WAY better than the equivalent in OS X.

Neither will crash no matter what I do to them.

Everything else? Ho hum, yadah yadah. Far more the same than
different. Neither warrants any kind of religious following.

--
SteveT
Phillip Woon

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Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple
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  Posted: Oct 8, 2014 11:07 AM   in response to: Dominique Willems in response to: Dominique Willems
Dominique Willems wrote:
Nick Hodges wrote:
So you are arguing that Phillip's statement -- "Video processing,
graphic arts programs on the Mac are preferred by artists and movie
types." -- is incorrect?

The response was both to that and his previous statement: "Last I
looked, Mac OS X had pretty much most of the same or equivalent or
better programs than windows." The "better" part is annoying.

So you're saying that the set of "better" programs on the Mac is empty? and the set of "better" programs on Windows has members? Are you saying that there are NO programs on the Mac that are better than their Windows counterparts? Some may say that Final Cut Pro X is better than Adobe Premier, and some may say the reverse. So why do people even buy Macs? They are, after all, more expensive than PCs.
Dominique Willems

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Registered: 10/26/99
Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple
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  Posted: Oct 8, 2014 1:53 PM   in response to: Phillip Woon in response to: Phillip Woon
Phillip Woon wrote:
So why
do people even buy Macs?

I have wondered about that since their very first emergence, in the
eighties. I have studied them, asked people, dug as deep as I could.
All I could find was emptiness (or an empty set, as you would put it).
I did encounter a lot of people who were frothing at the mouth when I
asked them why they chose a Mac, but there was no logic, just froth.

Besides the layout designers, who were kind of forced by poorly
equipped printers to deliver their files on Mac disks, they were mainly
purchased by people who thought they'd compensate for their lack of
creativity, or maybe status. These people also tend(ed) to buy cars
with status in mind.

They are, after all, more expensive than
PCs.

And that's the signal you'd want to broadcast. Like wearing a flashy
watch.

Today, all these people have turned into those grey masses very well
portrayed in this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OYecfV3ubP8


<veg>

Phillip Woon

Posts: 189
Registered: 9/30/99
Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple
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  Posted: Oct 8, 2014 2:07 PM   in response to: Dominique Willems in response to: Dominique Willems
Dominique Willems wrote:
Phillip Woon wrote:
So why
do people even buy Macs?

I have wondered about that since their very first emergence, in the
eighties. I have studied them, asked people, dug as deep as I could.
All I could find was emptiness (or an empty set, as you would put it).
I did encounter a lot of people who were frothing at the mouth when I
asked them why they chose a Mac, but there was no logic, just froth.

Besides the layout designers, who were kind of forced by poorly
equipped printers to deliver their files on Mac disks, they were mainly
purchased by people who thought they'd compensate for their lack of
creativity, or maybe status. These people also tend(ed) to buy cars
with status in mind.

They are, after all, more expensive than
PCs.

And that's the signal you'd want to broadcast. Like wearing a flashy
watch.

Today, all these people have turned into those grey masses very well
portrayed in this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OYecfV3ubP8


<veg>


I guess you won't know the allure of a Mac until you actually own one. The challenge is getting anti-Apple people to even buy one. But, I assure you, once you do, you'll wonder why you hated Apple.
Dominique Willems

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Registered: 10/26/99
Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple
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  Posted: Oct 8, 2014 2:19 PM   in response to: Phillip Woon in response to: Phillip Woon
Phillip Woon wrote:
But, I assure you, once you do, you'll wonder why you hated Apple.

I wouldn't hate Apple. I love what they did to the mobile market. Their
(tiny) counterweight to Windows gave some incentive to MS to improve
their goods. I just don't get

1) why a developer would choose to live under the dictate of one single
manufacturer, controlling all hardware and OS;

2) how Apple, having had the phenomenal advantage of controlling both
hardware and software for so many years, didn't manage to create
anything substantially better than Windows on any odd PC.
Phillip Woon

Posts: 189
Registered: 9/30/99
Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple
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  Posted: Oct 8, 2014 4:33 PM   in response to: Dominique Willems in response to: Dominique Willems
Dominique Willems wrote:
Phillip Woon wrote:
But, I assure you, once you do, you'll wonder why you hated Apple.

I wouldn't hate Apple. I love what they did to the mobile market. Their
(tiny) counterweight to Windows gave some incentive to MS to improve
their goods. I just don't get

1) why a developer would choose to live under the dictate of one single
manufacturer, controlling all hardware and OS;

2) how Apple, having had the phenomenal advantage of controlling both
hardware and software for so many years, didn't manage to create
anything substantially better than Windows on any odd PC.

I would submit that every release of Windows copied from Mac OS.
Luigi Sandon

Posts: 353
Registered: 10/15/99
Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple
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  Posted: Oct 10, 2014 1:08 PM   in response to: Phillip Woon in response to: Phillip Woon
I would submit that every release of Windows copied from Mac OS.

Just, Apple had to copy Windows hardware to stay competitive <G>.
Rudy Velthuis (...


Posts: 7,731
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple
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  Posted: Oct 9, 2014 5:35 AM   in response to: Dominique Willems in response to: Dominique Willems
Dominique Willems wrote:

Phillip Woon wrote:
But, I assure you, once you do, you'll wonder why you hated Apple.

I wouldn't hate Apple.

Oh? Since when? <g>
--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"A woman is an occasional pleasure but a cigar is always a smoke."
-- Groucho Marx
Dominique Willems

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Registered: 10/26/99
Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple
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  Posted: Oct 9, 2014 6:16 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:
I wouldn't hate Apple.

Oh? Since when? <g>

Listen, I'm really straining myself here. :)
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple
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  Posted: Oct 9, 2014 6:29 AM   in response to: Dominique Willems in response to: Dominique Willems
Dominique Willems wrote:

Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:
I wouldn't hate Apple.

Oh? Since when? <g>

Listen, I'm really straining myself here. :)

Oh dear. It doesn't show yet. <g>

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Imagine if every Thursday your shoes exploded if you tied them
the usual way. This happens to us all the time with computers,
and nobody thinks of complaining." -- Jeff Raskin
Dominique Willems

Posts: 591
Registered: 10/26/99
Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple
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  Posted: Oct 9, 2014 8:38 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:
Listen, I'm really straining myself here. :)

Oh dear. It doesn't show yet. <g>

Hmmmmpffffhh.

Better?
Rudy Velthuis (...


Posts: 7,731
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Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple
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  Posted: Oct 9, 2014 8:43 AM   in response to: Dominique Willems in response to: Dominique Willems
Dominique Willems wrote:

Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:
Listen, I'm really straining myself here. :)

Oh dear. It doesn't show yet. <g>

Hmmmmpffffhh.

Better?

When I read that I was reminded of Kermit doing his disappointed face.
<g>

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"When I die I'm going to leave my body to science fiction."
-- Steven Wright.
Brandon Staggs

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Registered: 3/3/01
Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple
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  Posted: Oct 8, 2014 4:15 PM   in response to: Phillip Woon in response to: Phillip Woon
"Phillip Woon" wrote on Wed, 8 Oct 2014 14:07:52 -0700:

I guess you won't know the allure of a Mac until you actually own one

I was happy to get rid of mine on eBay.

--
Brandon Staggs
StudyLamp Software LLC
http://www.studylamp.com
Adem Meda

Posts: 495
Registered: 12/28/98
Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple
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  Posted: Oct 10, 2014 9:48 AM   in response to: Phillip Woon in response to: Phillip Woon
Phillip Woon wrote:

I guess you won't know the allure of a Mac until you actually own one. The
challenge is getting anti-Apple people to even buy one. But, I assure you,
once you do, you'll wonder why you hated Apple.

I am not so sure this prophecy holds at all.

I, for one, have owned several (more like 5-6) of Apple's s**t --such as pro
workstations, laptops and tablets-- and I ended up installing either Windows on
them or Linux.

And, in the cases I was too lazy to do that, I gave away the thing(s).
David Erbas-White

Posts: 202
Registered: 10/11/99
Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple
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  Posted: Oct 10, 2014 10:00 AM   in response to: Adem Meda in response to: Adem Meda
On 10/10/2014 9:48 AM, Adem Meda wrote:
Phillip Woon wrote:

I guess you won't know the allure of a Mac until you actually own one. The
challenge is getting anti-Apple people to even buy one. But, I assure you,
once you do, you'll wonder why you hated Apple.

I am not so sure this prophecy holds at all.

As a minor add-on: Apple has this great reputation for service -- but
the reality? Not so much. A couple of quick examples:

1. Bought a Mac Mini from the local Apple Store. Walked in, found what
I wanted, bought it took it home. There was a problem with it, so I
packed it up, brought it back to the SAME STORE, and was promptly told
to leave since I didn't have an appointment... Funny, I sure didn't
need an appointment when they TOOK my money, but once I needed them to
service what they sold me?

2. (Just yesterday) I went to my local ATT store to upgrade my iPhone,
but they were out of the new iPhones. They suggested that I go to the
Apple Store, as they thought they may have some, and even if they
didn't, the Apple stores apparently are being shipped product with
priority over ATT. So, I go to the Apple store. Their response: "We'll
be happy to show you how to go online and order one." (Hmm, Android may
be looking better now...)

David Erbas-White
Phillip Woon

Posts: 189
Registered: 9/30/99
Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple
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  Posted: Oct 10, 2014 10:04 AM   in response to: David Erbas-White in response to: David Erbas-White
David Erbas-White wrote:
On 10/10/2014 9:48 AM, Adem Meda wrote:
Phillip Woon wrote:

I guess you won't know the allure of a Mac until you actually own one. The
challenge is getting anti-Apple people to even buy one. But, I assure you,
once you do, you'll wonder why you hated Apple.

I am not so sure this prophecy holds at all.

As a minor add-on: Apple has this great reputation for service -- but
the reality? Not so much. A couple of quick examples:

1. Bought a Mac Mini from the local Apple Store. Walked in, found what
I wanted, bought it took it home. There was a problem with it, so I
packed it up, brought it back to the SAME STORE, and was promptly told
to leave since I didn't have an appointment... Funny, I sure didn't
need an appointment when they TOOK my money, but once I needed them to
service what they sold me?

2. (Just yesterday) I went to my local ATT store to upgrade my iPhone,
but they were out of the new iPhones. They suggested that I go to the
Apple Store, as they thought they may have some, and even if they
didn't, the Apple stores apparently are being shipped product with
priority over ATT. So, I go to the Apple store. Their response: "We'll
be happy to show you how to go online and order one." (Hmm, Android may
be looking better now...)

David Erbas-White

Hmm, I've never had an appointment at an Apple store, and I've never been turned down for service... Perhaps your store is extraordinarily busier.
David Erbas-White

Posts: 202
Registered: 10/11/99
Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple
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  Posted: Oct 10, 2014 10:07 AM   in response to: Phillip Woon in response to: Phillip Woon
On 10/10/2014 10:04 AM, Phillip Woon wrote:

Hmm, I've never had an appointment at an Apple store, and I've never been turned down for service... Perhaps your store is extraordinarily busier.

Should it make a difference? If I go to Costco or Best Buy with a
problem, they have this thing called a 'line' that I can get in, and
wait my turn. Instead, these folks decide it's a better use of my time
(after already having driven to the store) to drive back home and make
an appointment when it's convenient for THEM. Not how I think they
should be treating customers...

David Erbas-White
Graeme Geldenhuys

Posts: 152
Registered: 5/25/01
Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple
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  Posted: Oct 8, 2014 3:34 PM   in response to: Dominique Willems in response to: Dominique Willems
On 2014-10-08 17:11, Dominique Willems wrote:
The "better" part is annoying.

No, it's just the true that hurts. Hell, they guy next to me in the
office does the same job as I and 3 other developers. Only difference is
that the guy next to me is on a iMac, and all other developers are on
Windows 7. Guess who's computer ALWAYS just works.... the guy with the Mac!

Windows is rubbish! I only use it because I am forced to at the office.
At home I run FreeBSD and OSX for years - no problems compared to Windows.

Regards,
- Graeme -
Dominique Willems

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Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple
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  Posted: Oct 8, 2014 3:49 PM   in response to: Graeme Geldenhuys in response to: Graeme Geldenhuys
Graeme Geldenhuys wrote:
Windows is rubbish!

What exactly doesn't work?
Graeme Geldenhuys

Posts: 152
Registered: 5/25/01
Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple
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  Posted: Oct 9, 2014 1:15 PM   in response to: Dominique Willems in response to: Dominique Willems
On 2014-10-08 23:49, Dominique Willems wrote:
What exactly doesn't work?

VPN keeps dropping, various software with frequent "Not responding" in
the title bar, PC can't run for more than 2 days without a reboot,
restoring from hibernate/sleep takes just as long as a cold boot (Mac is
up instantly), network services that don't come up until a reboot etc etc.

My FreeBSD system which hosts two VM's 24/7 and is my mail/web browser
system and development platform runs for 2+ months without needing a
reboot. After 2 months I reboot just because I feel like it, not because
the FreeBSD system has problems. My previous Linux workstation was up
for just under a year without a single reboot. I don't know of a single
Windows PC or server that can do that.

Regards,
- Graeme -

Dominique Willems

Posts: 591
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Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple
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  Posted: Oct 9, 2014 3:15 PM   in response to: Graeme Geldenhuys in response to: Graeme Geldenhuys
Graeme Geldenhuys wrote:
My previous Linux
workstation was up for just under a year without a single reboot. I
don't know of a single Windows PC or server that can do that.

Thought this was about OS X, but okay. Windows PC probably can't do
that because of the automatic updates, but other than that, I don't see
why not, and I'm sure people are doing exactly that.
Luigi Sandon

Posts: 353
Registered: 10/15/99
Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple
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  Posted: Oct 10, 2014 7:53 AM   in response to: Graeme Geldenhuys in response to: Graeme Geldenhuys
My previous Linux workstation was up
for just under a year without a single reboot. I don't know of a single
Windows PC or server that can do that.

So you run it for a year without ever applying kernel patches?

It's a common misconception Linux machines don't need to be rebooted. They need too - just they don't ask explicitly.

Kernel can be updated only rebooting - unless using special systems that tries to replace the kernel overwriting the memory - with all the associated risks - and I wonder even developers don't understand it. But after all, true OS and kernel developers are very few...

So if you "apply" kernel patches and don't reboot, actually the patches aren't active. Good luck...
Graeme Geldenhuys

Posts: 152
Registered: 5/25/01
Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple
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  Posted: Oct 10, 2014 1:58 PM   in response to: Luigi Sandon in response to: Luigi Sandon
On 2014-10-10 15:53, Luigi Sandon wrote:
So you run it for a year without ever applying kernel patches?

It's a common misconception that (Windows) people think they know Linux
or other Unix-type systems.

Have you ever heard of kernel modules? Probably 90% of them can be
unloaded and reloaded without a reboot. Thus making low level patching
without a reboot very possible.

Plus the fact that I am a great believer in "don't fix what isn't
broken". If it works for me and does what I need, I don't apply every
patch that comes my way. I do still keep an eye on high security patches
though.

Regards,
- Graeme -
Luigi Sandon

Posts: 353
Registered: 10/15/99
Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple
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  Posted: Oct 11, 2014 6:16 AM   in response to: Graeme Geldenhuys in response to: Graeme Geldenhuys
Graeme Geldenhuys wrote:

It's a common misconception that (Windows) people think they know Linux
or other Unix-type systems.

I know Linux as much as Windows, and both very well. Actually, I'm working more on Linux applications project lately than Windows one, and I don't just use Linux to run a Windows VM to run Delphi... and being application for the IT security, they work at a pretty low level...

Have you ever heard of kernel modules? Probably 90% of them can be
unloaded and reloaded without a reboot. Thus making low level patching
without a reboot very possible.

Kernel modules are not the kernel itself. They are just like Windows drivers. I suggest you to really learn how Linux is designed, coded and works.

Plus the fact that I am a great believer in "don't fix what isn't
broken". If it works for me and does what I need, I don't apply every

In security, that's the best way to get compromised, It may have worked many years ago, it doesn't work that way anymore. Sure, maybe you're not a target, but good luck anyway.

patch that comes my way. I do still keep an eye on high security patches

And until you reboot, those may not be active.
Eduardo Elias

Posts: 319
Registered: 9/20/12
Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple
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  Posted: Oct 10, 2014 8:25 AM   in response to: Graeme Geldenhuys in response to: Graeme Geldenhuys
I cant tell you that is not true in my side.

I use windows 8, in my opinion one of the best ever. I dont use the start
window.

I have 2 VM always open, one with XP other with another win8.

IDEs opens, and many other database utilities.

I get no frozen apps. I leave at night, it went to sleep and when come back
the other days just touch the mouse and everything is just there.

If I need to leave with this notebook I just hit the powebutton to hibernate.
When I start again in seconds everything is just there.

This battle of who is better is nonsense. Since Windows XP S3 much changed
in Windows OS about stability and usability at a point that for does not
make sense going to linux.

It is not perfect, but I dont see advantage moving somewhere else. It is
just little design preferences. The core stuff has no sense.

If you having problems with your computer, upgrade it to Windows 8/8.1 add
a descent amount of memory (8g at least) and make sure you have the right
drivers (I use and automated driver update and is good).

My notebook with all of this wake up from sleep in 2 seconds. From Hybernation
4 seconds, and a boot take 6 seconds (of course will take more to load the
rest of the apps).

Stability is just amazing. I see sometime Delphi IDE crash miserably and
my dev app also and windows is just there always.

So, check your hardware and software you will be fine, or even better than
linux

On 2014-10-08 23:49, Dominique Willems wrote:

What exactly doesn't work?
VPN keeps dropping, various software with frequent "Not responding" in
the title bar, PC can't run for more than 2 days without a reboot,
restoring from hibernate/sleep takes just as long as a cold boot (Mac
is up instantly), network services that don't come up until a reboot
etc etc.

My FreeBSD system which hosts two VM's 24/7 and is my mail/web browser
system and development platform runs for 2+ months without needing a
reboot. After 2 months I reboot just because I feel like it, not
because the FreeBSD system has problems. My previous Linux workstation
was up for just under a year without a single reboot. I don't know of
a single Windows PC or server that can do that.

Regards,
- Graeme -
Steve Thackery

Posts: 151
Registered: 4/29/06
Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple
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  Posted: Oct 9, 2014 1:23 AM   in response to: Graeme Geldenhuys in response to: Graeme Geldenhuys
Graeme Geldenhuys wrote:

Guess who's computer ALWAYS just works.... the guy with the Mac!

Windows is rubbish! I only use it because I am forced to at the
office.

Uh oh, sounds like you've caught the religion. My Windows machine
ALWAYS just works, too. It's on 16 hours a day and I use it for
everything from software development, editing audio and video files,
office applications, CAD, plus the usual emails/surfing/blah and it
hasn't crashed since BEFORE Windows 7 came out. Seriously, it's so
long ago I can't actually remember when it was, but I think I was
running XP, and I adopted Vista the moment it arrived in the shops.

--
SteveT
Rudy Velthuis (...


Posts: 7,731
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple
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  Posted: Oct 9, 2014 5:37 AM   in response to: Steve Thackery in response to: Steve Thackery
Steve Thackery wrote:

Graeme Geldenhuys wrote:

Guess who's computer ALWAYS just works.... the guy with the Mac!

Windows is rubbish! I only use it because I am forced to at the
office.

Uh oh, sounds like you've caught the religion. My Windows machine
ALWAYS just works, too.

While I am pretty much an Apple fan, I must admit that my Windows
laptop also always just works. But somehow I feel more at ease in OS X.
I know that is not a rational argument, but well, I don't give a damn.
<g>
--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

May's Law: The quality of correlation is inverely proportional to
the density of control. (The fewer the data points, the smoother
the curves.)
Graeme Geldenhuys

Posts: 152
Registered: 5/25/01
Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple
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  Posted: Oct 9, 2014 1:18 PM   in response to: Steve Thackery in response to: Steve Thackery
On 2014-10-09 09:23, Steve Thackery wrote:
Seriously, it's so
long ago I can't actually remember when

Your Windows system is clearly the exception and NOT the norm.

6 people in our office have constant issues with Windows. 6 different
systems: 5 running Windows 7, one running Windows 8. Only the iMac guy
has no issues - and that damn big grin on his face. :)

Regards,
- Graeme -

Dominique Willems

Posts: 591
Registered: 10/26/99
Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple
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  Posted: Oct 9, 2014 3:20 PM   in response to: Graeme Geldenhuys in response to: Graeme Geldenhuys
Graeme Geldenhuys wrote:
Your Windows system is clearly the exception and NOT the norm.

Could it be that your office is the exception? Is the iMac guy actually
doing anything productive, besides grinning? Keep an eye on him; many
Apple users hide behind that logo, pretending to be creative and
productive, while we all know they just don't have the tools to do that
-- unless he's doing the layout of your cafeteria's menus?
Luigi Sandon

Posts: 353
Registered: 10/15/99
Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple
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  Posted: Oct 10, 2014 8:41 AM   in response to: Graeme Geldenhuys in response to: Graeme Geldenhuys
6 people in our office have constant issues with Windows. 6 different

Have you tried to remove admin privileges from those users? It usally helps a lot to keep Windows machines stable and trouble free... often the real problem is between the chair and the keyboard.

Mac user usually create less havoc to systems, partly because there's less stuff around to make it.
Adem Meda

Posts: 495
Registered: 12/28/98
Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple
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  Posted: Oct 11, 2014 8:07 AM   in response to: Graeme Geldenhuys in response to: Graeme Geldenhuys
Graeme Geldenhuys wrote:

6 people in our office have constant issues with Windows.

Yeah, I know how you feel. Some people can't stop fiddling around with settings
and stuff they know nothing about.

/s
Mike Margerum

Posts: 590
Registered: 12/1/99
Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple
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  Posted: Oct 9, 2014 4:28 AM   in response to: Graeme Geldenhuys in response to: Graeme Geldenhuys
Windows is rubbish! I only use it because I am forced to at the office.
At home I run FreeBSD and OSX for years - no problems compared to Windows.

I don't miss having to do my annual windows reinstall due to the machine
inexplicably coming to a crawl.

The best windows machine i've ever had is the one I have now. A windows
VM running in parallels on a mac book pro.
Brandon Staggs

Posts: 683
Registered: 3/3/01
Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple
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  Posted: Oct 9, 2014 5:33 AM   in response to: Mike Margerum in response to: Mike Margerum
"Mike Margerum" wrote on Thu, 9 Oct 2014 04:28:25 -0700:

I don't miss having to do my annual windows reinstall due to the machine
inexplicably coming to a crawl.

My current primary work PC has been running 24 hours a day for almost
two years. I use it every day. The only reason I re-installed
Windows two years ago was to do a fresh install of Windows 8.

Everything still "just works" and nothing is slow. I can identify
some applications that make me wait a moment at login but those are
things I explicitly installed and want there. (Windows 8 will offer
to disable startup apps that have an impact on login time.)

I have no doubt that for some people "winrot" is real but it has been
a long time, at least pre-Windows 7, since I have experienced it.

--
Brandon Staggs
StudyLamp Software LLC
http://www.studylamp.com
Steve Thackery

Posts: 151
Registered: 4/29/06
Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple
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  Posted: Oct 9, 2014 5:37 AM   in response to: Brandon Staggs in response to: Brandon Staggs
Brandon Staggs wrote:

My current primary work PC has been running 24 hours a day for almost
two years. I use it every day. The only reason I re-installed
Windows two years ago was to do a fresh install of Windows 8.

Everything still "just works" and nothing is slow. I can identify
some applications that make me wait a moment at login but those are
things I explicitly installed and want there. (Windows 8 will offer
to disable startup apps that have an impact on login time.)

I have no doubt that for some people "winrot" is real but it has been
a long time, at least pre-Windows 7, since I have experienced it.

+1000.

Also, the startup/shutdown is FAR faster than Linux or OSX (and I'm not
just talking about sleep/hibernation - I'm talking about cold starts).

--
SteveT
Graeme Geldenhuys

Posts: 152
Registered: 5/25/01
Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple
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  Posted: Oct 9, 2014 1:25 PM   in response to: Steve Thackery in response to: Steve Thackery
On 2014-10-09 13:37, Steve Thackery wrote:
Also, the startup/shutdown is FAR faster than Linux

Ummm... My previous Ubuntu Linux system (first gen Intel quad core) had
a 6 second startup time - from a cold boot with a standard hard drive
(not a solid-state drive)! That PC came with Windows XP and the boot
time was nothing near 6 seconds out of the box!

Either way, boot times on Linux, FreeBSD and OSX are pretty irrelevant -
simply because they never need to be shut down. ;-)

Regards,
- Graeme -
Steve Thackery

Posts: 151
Registered: 4/29/06
Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple
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  Posted: Oct 9, 2014 4:20 PM   in response to: Graeme Geldenhuys in response to: Graeme Geldenhuys
Graeme Geldenhuys wrote:

Either way, boot times on Linux, FreeBSD and OSX are pretty
irrelevant - simply because they never need to be shut down. ;-)

Oh yes they do, for the occasional update. And that's exactly the same
for Windows.

However, apart from those mandatory reboots, I don't ever shut down
Windows.

All the things you are saying make Linux and OS X so good are just the
same in Windows, and have been for some years. Perhaps you don't want
to acknowledge that they are all much of a muchness these days?

--
SteveT
Graeme Geldenhuys

Posts: 152
Registered: 5/25/01
Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple
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  Posted: Oct 10, 2014 1:39 PM   in response to: Steve Thackery in response to: Steve Thackery
On 2014-10-10 00:20, Steve Thackery wrote:

Oh yes they do, for the occasional update.

Only a kernel (core OS is windows terms) requires a reboot to take
affect. Anything else... drivers, software etc doesn't require a reboot.
I've used Windows since Windows 3.0 days... Windows requires a reboot
simply by looking at it funny. Though I must admit Win7 does reboot
less, but still way way more than Linux or FreeBSD.

All the things you are saying make Linux and OS X so good are just the
same in Windows,

Sorry buddy, I use 4 different OS's on a daily basis (*nix admin, too
developing cross-platform software, to using them for general email/web
etc). Windows is by far the worst of the lot.

But I see this conversation is going nowhere. So lets just agree to
disagree.

Regards,
- Graeme -
John Treder

Posts: 349
Registered: 8/2/02
Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple
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  Posted: Oct 9, 2014 7:38 PM   in response to: Graeme Geldenhuys in response to: Graeme Geldenhuys
Graeme Geldenhuys wrote:


Either way, boot times on Linux, FreeBSD and OSX are pretty irrelevant -
simply because they never need to be shut down. ;-)

Regards,
- Graeme -

I shut my computer down every evening, if it's on, and restart it the next time I need it. I do that for power saving, fire safety and hacking resistance.
YMMV.

--
nhoJ
Graeme Geldenhuys

Posts: 152
Registered: 5/25/01
Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple
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  Posted: Oct 10, 2014 1:50 PM   in response to: John Treder in response to: John Treder
On 2014-10-10 03:38, John Treder wrote:

I do that for power saving, fire safety and hacking resistance.
YMMV.

My home server is well kitted out system for a reason. It runs FreeBSD
has the host system with ZFS file system and 6x 2TB RAID-Z setup for
data integrity. The hard drive pool also stores ALL my software
development code, music and movie library. It hosts 2 VM's running 24/7.
They host NNTP, HTTP, FTP and Database servers. They also get used for
2-hourly software rebuilds and unit test runs for software I develop or
help maintain. When developing cross-platform software (which is most of
the time) I develop under FreeBSD. I then also fire up multiple Windows
& Linux VM's for final testing and platform specific development work.
So it's not just a system that sits idle for 99% of the time.

My system is a work-horse that has been running non-stop for just under
4 years. With the occasional shutdown for quick cleaning maintenance,
then its back on again. I've tried this setup on Windows, Linux and
FreeBSD. The latter is by far the best environment I have worked with.

Regards,
- Graeme -
Luigi Sandon

Posts: 353
Registered: 10/15/99
Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple
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  Posted: Oct 10, 2014 2:00 PM   in response to: Graeme Geldenhuys in response to: Graeme Geldenhuys
I do that for power saving, fire safety and hacking resistance.
YMMV.

My system is a work-horse that has been running non-stop for just under

Hope you have also an UPS, circuit breakers and fire/flood alert system able to shut it down. I would never leave a computer run unattended in a room without safety systems.

And yes, wasting power when nobody use it is also a bit silly, IMHO.
David Erbas-White

Posts: 202
Registered: 10/11/99
Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple
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  Posted: Oct 10, 2014 2:09 PM   in response to: Luigi Sandon in response to: Luigi Sandon
On 10/10/2014 2:00 PM, Luigi Sandon wrote:
I do that for power saving, fire safety and hacking resistance.
YMMV.

My system is a work-horse that has been running non-stop for just under

Hope you have also an UPS, circuit breakers and fire/flood alert system able to shut it down. I would never leave a computer run unattended in a room without safety systems.

I work out of my house. I used to leave my system powered up all of the
time, until one morning at 3AM my daughter woke me up to tell me that
she smelled something and thought there might be smoke coming out of my
computer. By the time I ran to the room, there were flames shooting out
the back.

And this was with VERY high-end power supply (which is what had failed).
Even though I have multiple smoke alarms in the house, my daughter's
warning was the first sign of anything wrong -- and probably saved us
from catastrophe.

My computers are turned off when I'm not using them, now... <G>

David Erbas-White
Rudy Velthuis (...


Posts: 7,731
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple
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  Posted: Oct 9, 2014 11:47 PM   in response to: Steve Thackery in response to: Steve Thackery
Steve Thackery wrote:

Brandon Staggs wrote:

My current primary work PC has been running 24 hours a day for
almost two years. I use it every day. The only reason I
re-installed Windows two years ago was to do a fresh install of
Windows 8.

Everything still "just works" and nothing is slow. I can identify
some applications that make me wait a moment at login but those are
things I explicitly installed and want there. (Windows 8 will offer
to disable startup apps that have an impact on login time.)

I have no doubt that for some people "winrot" is real but it has
been a long time, at least pre-Windows 7, since I have experienced
it.

+1000.

Also, the startup/shutdown is FAR faster than Linux or OSX (and I'm
not just talking about sleep/hibernation - I'm talking about cold
starts).

Oh? OK, I only have Windows 7, but OS X starts up much faster and is
immediately fully usable, while in Win7, even if the main screeen
appears, it takes quite some time before everything is usable.

I have no problems with Windows, and I use it almost daily, but it
certainly does not start up faster than my OS X. On the contrary.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Unless Americans come to realize that they are not stronger in
the world because they have the bomb but weaker because of
their vulnerability to atomic attack, they are not likely to
conduct their policy, in a spirit that furthers the arrival at
an understanding."
-- Albert Einstein
Graeme Geldenhuys

Posts: 152
Registered: 5/25/01
Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple
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  Posted: Oct 10, 2014 1:53 PM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
On 2014-10-10 07:47, Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:
while in Win7, even if the main screeen
appears, it takes quite some time before everything is usable

+1000

I used to set my old work desktop PC to start up 5 minutes before I get
to work (a handy BIOS setting I don't seem to see much these days). That
gave Windows enough time to settle in, and not waist my time staring at
a desktop that is unresponsive and constantly redrawing until everything
is loaded.

Regards,
- Graeme -
Steve Thackery

Posts: 151
Registered: 4/29/06
Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple
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  Posted: Oct 11, 2014 2:49 AM   in response to: Graeme Geldenhuys in response to: Graeme Geldenhuys
Graeme Geldenhuys wrote:

I used to set my old work desktop PC to start up 5 minutes before I
get to work (a handy BIOS setting I don't seem to see much these
days). That gave Windows enough time to settle in, and not waist my
time staring at a desktop that is unresponsive and constantly
redrawing until everything is loaded.

For goodness' sake! What were you running, a 200MHz Pentium? That
kind of behaviour disappeared years ago, unless you were using an
already-years-old PC.

Of course Windows continues with various processes after the desktop is
presented, but so do OS X and Linux. Honestly, put them on the same
hardware and you will find them to be remarkably similar.

A computer mag here in the UK did exactly that less about a year ago.
They did numerous tests using the closest equivalent applications they
could find, plus other tests just using the OS (like moving a few Gigs
of files around). The most striking thing was how similar they all
were, to the point where most of the differences were small enough to
be measureable to not really perceptible.

To be honest, this is exactly what I would expect. All three OSs have
been carefully optimised over the years, and it would seem perfectly
logical for them all to begin to approach the best performance possible
for a given hardware.

Interestingly, each OS had one or two benchmark tests where it did
noticeably better, or worse, than the others. Presumably these point
to the few remaining areas where optimisation hasn't yet been achieved.

It bothers me when people start getting religiously pro-something or
anti-something, when the facts indicate otherwise. And subjective
impressions like "the Windows machines are always the worst" are
useless because we humans are notorious for finding/remembering the
stuff that supports our prejudices and ignoring the rest.

Data, data, data. That is all that counts.

--
SteveT
Jouni Aro

Posts: 86
Registered: 9/4/97
Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple
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  Posted: Oct 11, 2014 4:32 AM   in response to: Steve Thackery in response to: Steve Thackery
On 11/10/14 12:49, Steve Thackery wrote:
Data, data, data. That is all that counts.

My experience with the last Dell I had, running Vista is much worse than
Graeme's. I still occasionally need to start it up to check some old
data or projects in it. It really takes over 10 minutes to get it booted
and responsive. When I was still using it, recovering from hibernation
was sometimes even worse. I remember I was in a workshop and I was asked
to take notes: it failed since my PC did not respond in time. The guy
next to me was running his MacBook, which finally confirmed me that it's
the way to go. I did not want to find out anymore, if Win7 is any
better. I believe it is, but I am extremely happy I went the other route.

Also I remember the previous switch from an XP laptop (Dell) to the
Vista one (also Dell). It took several days to get the new machine up to
date with all the settings. There's no way you could just copy things
from the old one to the new one, since all the apps must be installed
properly. Crap, I say, and have always said so.

Back in the '90s I played with several Linux boxes of my own. I could
always move everything I need from one hard disk to another, use that in
a new PC and keep going, including all your application settings. With
Windows, you can only dream of such.
Jouni Aro

Posts: 86
Registered: 9/4/97
Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple
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  Posted: Oct 11, 2014 4:42 AM   in response to: Jouni Aro in response to: Jouni Aro
On 11/10/14 14:32, Jouni Aro wrote:
I remember I was in a workshop and I was asked
to take notes: it failed since my PC did not respond in time. The guy
next to me was running his MacBook, which finally confirmed me that it's
the way to go.

Oh, and guess who finally took the notes?
Graeme Geldenhuys

Posts: 152
Registered: 5/25/01
Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple
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  Posted: Oct 11, 2014 1:10 PM   in response to: Jouni Aro in response to: Jouni Aro
On 2014-10-11 12:32, Jouni Aro wrote:
It really takes over 10 minutes to get it booted
and responsive.

In my previous work I maintained a Linux server and a co-worker a
Windows 2008 server. It was an ongoing joke in the office how long the
Windows server took to boot up. The Linux server took about 30 seconds
and all services fully available. The Windows server (which was a more
powerful system) was around 7 minutes before anybody could access the
network shares! Absolutely ridiculous, but hey others seem to have
better luck with Windows - good for them.

Regards,
- Graeme -

Eduardo Elias

Posts: 319
Registered: 9/20/12
Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple
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  Posted: Oct 11, 2014 10:46 AM   in response to: Graeme Geldenhuys in response to: Graeme Geldenhuys
Amazing how people find a way to create its own problems !

Windows could not be the piece of art that should be

But I have a Pentium 4 HT, 750mb ram and 60 gig HD. This is a 10+ years
old computer.

That I have installed a windows 8 and use as my SERVER !!!

with an external USB driver.

It runs a database server (elevatedb), versioning server, more 3 remote data
acess apps that I use for development, plus an uniGUI server

Ant it takes 40 seconds to power up and be ready asking the password.

And it is always running, day and night for months.

So when I see this kind of comment: 5 minutes to turn on? amazing

and that windows is not stable?

People, there is need to learn how to use computer first!

Eduardo

On 2014-10-10 07:47, Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:

while in Win7, even if the main screeen
appears, it takes quite some time before everything is usable
+1000

I used to set my old work desktop PC to start up 5 minutes before I
get to work (a handy BIOS setting I don't seem to see much these
days). That gave Windows enough time to settle in, and not waist my
time staring at a desktop that is unresponsive and constantly
redrawing until everything is loaded.

Regards,
- Graeme -
Jouni Aro

Posts: 86
Registered: 9/4/97
Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple
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  Posted: Oct 11, 2014 11:32 AM   in response to: Eduardo Elias in response to: Eduardo Elias
On 11/10/14 20:46, Eduardo Elias wrote:
Amazing how people find a way to create its own problems !

Windows could not be the piece of art that should be

But I have a Pentium 4 HT, 750mb ram and 60 gig HD. This is a 10+ years
old computer.

That I have installed a windows 8 and use as my SERVER !!!

with an external USB driver.

It runs a database server (elevatedb), versioning server, more 3 remote data
acess apps that I use for development, plus an uniGUI server

Ant it takes 40 seconds to power up and be ready asking the password.

And it is always running, day and night for months.

So when I see this kind of comment: 5 minutes to turn on? amazing

and that windows is not stable?

People, there is need to learn how to use computer first!

I agree that you can have a usable Windows computer with low hardware. I
used to have a fanless small 500 MHz Pentium at home just a couple of
years ago, running XP without a problem. Unfortunately some hardware
components failed and it no longer started up. Otherwise, i would
happily use it still for basic browsing. the key was not to install much
of anything.

But, if you actively use a Windows desktop PC a few years and install
all the stuff you need for your work, it eventually degrades and starts
behaving much worse. AT least this happens until Vista. Now I run
Windows 7 in a virtual machine and don't really use it as actively, so
it seems to stay up better. I don't doubt that it's much better than
Vista anyway. No experience of Windows 8. Sounds good, if you can run it
in an old Pentium.

By the way, disk speed, that is an SSD disk, affects much more to the
start up time than the processor.
Graeme Geldenhuys

Posts: 152
Registered: 5/25/01
Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple
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  Posted: Oct 11, 2014 1:19 PM   in response to: Eduardo Elias in response to: Eduardo Elias
On 2014-10-11 18:46, Eduardo Elias wrote:
People, there is need to learn how to use computer first!

Umm I've used computers for 24 years now. Starting in the days of DOS
and 360K floppy disks and 10MB hard drives. I worked as a technician
building systems from components, full desktop system setups and
support, Windows and Linux server builds, deployment and support. Now I
develop software for a living on many platforms and still build and
maintain workstations and servers. I think I know computers pretty darn
well and can spot a crap OS from another as I have used them all in a
very technical manner.

Regards,
- Graeme -

Eduardo Elias

Posts: 319
Registered: 9/20/12
Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple
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  Posted: Oct 11, 2014 2:50 PM   in response to: Graeme Geldenhuys in response to: Graeme Geldenhuys
well....

I work with computers for last 30years, even before DOS and floppy disk.
I am electronic engineer and I have already projected, build and created
the real time OS for on board computers in the past.

And mostly my windows stations just works...

From the OSes out there the only that I can tell you it is real one is the
QNX. And very few not very used others.

I see Windows, Linux and Mac as niche oriented utility toys. Depends on how
you use it. As a developer I have no problem with my Windows, it is never
my problem, and I am not using any top notebook.

Windows got a market and is well fitted for this market.

Linux got a market in the smartphones in the background, because mostly linux
interface is usesless for real applications. So Android, iOS, Mac are examples
of how to fix Linux for a niche.

:) anyways

On 2014-10-11 18:46, Eduardo Elias wrote:

People, there is need to learn how to use computer first!
Umm I've used computers for 24 years now. Starting in the days of DOS
and 360K floppy disks and 10MB hard drives. I worked as a technician
building systems from components, full desktop system setups and
support, Windows and Linux server builds, deployment and support. Now
I develop software for a living on many platforms and still build and
maintain workstations and servers. I think I know computers pretty
darn well and can spot a crap OS from another as I have used them all
in a very technical manner.

Regards,
- Graeme -
Graeme Geldenhuys

Posts: 152
Registered: 5/25/01
Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple
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  Posted: Oct 12, 2014 10:27 AM   in response to: Eduardo Elias in response to: Eduardo Elias
On 2014-10-11 22:50, Eduardo Elias wrote:
I see Windows, Linux and Mac as niche oriented utility toys.

Pretty lucrative "niche markets" then. ;-) Microsoft producing the most
successful OS is the world (which doesn't mean quality, just quantity).
Apple being the most wealthiest IT business in the world. Linux being
the biggest server and mobile OS is the world with billions of dollars
spend on it.

Sorry, but I would consider QNX more of a niche market than the other
big three. BTW there is well known real-time versions of Linux too.

Regards,
- Graeme -
Steve Thackery

Posts: 151
Registered: 4/29/06
Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple
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  Posted: Oct 11, 2014 2:36 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:

Oh? OK, I only have Windows 7, but OS X starts up much faster and is
immediately fully usable, while in Win7, even if the main screeen
appears, it takes quite some time before everything is usable.

No, Windows 8.

--
SteveT
Rudy Velthuis (...


Posts: 7,731
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple
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  Posted: Oct 12, 2014 1:34 AM   in response to: Steve Thackery in response to: Steve Thackery
Steve Thackery wrote:

Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:

Oh? OK, I only have Windows 7, but OS X starts up much faster and is
immediately fully usable, while in Win7, even if the main screeen
appears, it takes quite some time before everything is usable.

No, Windows 8.

I have used Win8 for a while, but I did not find it faster. Could be
because it was in a VM, I don't know.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Cole's Law: Thinly sliced cabbage."
Steve Thackery

Posts: 151
Registered: 4/29/06
Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple
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  Posted: Oct 12, 2014 1:38 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:

I have used Win8 for a while, but I did not find it faster. Could be
because it was in a VM, I don't know.

To be perfectly truthful I've compared W8 with Linux Mint on identical
hardware (dual boot) and W8 starts up much faster. My Mac also takes
longer than my W8 machine, but that is on different hardware so I
shouldn't really make too strong an assertion about that.

--
SteveT
Rudy Velthuis (...


Posts: 7,731
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple
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  Posted: Oct 12, 2014 2:09 AM   in response to: Steve Thackery in response to: Steve Thackery
Steve Thackery wrote:

Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:

I have used Win8 for a while, but I did not find it faster. Could be
because it was in a VM, I don't know.

To be perfectly truthful I've compared W8 with Linux Mint on identical
hardware (dual boot) and W8 starts up much faster.

Yes, perhaps, but what exactly do you mean with "starts up"? IME, W7
starts up pretty fast too, or at least it looks as if it does. It shows
the main screen pretty quickly, but goes on initializing behind the
scenes for quite some time. I guess it also depends on what you
actually have installed. I never used Win8 much, and never installed
anything else but Firefox, so that is not comparable.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"I was asked to memorize what I did not understand; and, my
memory being so good, it refused to be insulted in that
manner."
-- Aleister Crowley
Steve Thackery

Posts: 151
Registered: 4/29/06
Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple
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  Posted: Oct 12, 2014 3:18 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:

It shows
the main screen pretty quickly, but goes on initializing behind the
scenes for quite some time. I

I'm talking about a useable dekstop where I can click icons on the
tasbar and start up their programs.

The point is, your question is also relevant to OS X and Linux Mint,
because both of those carry on flashing the disk access light for a
while after the desktop appears, and the CPU has various spikes during
that period.

As I say, I shouldn't have asserted anything about OS X because the
hardware is different, but from a cold start W8 is definitely useable
sooner than Mint.

All that's left to do now is dissect in obsessive detail what, exactly,
we each mean by "useable". :-)

--
SteveT
David Erbas-White

Posts: 202
Registered: 10/11/99
Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple
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  Posted: Oct 9, 2014 9:08 AM   in response to: Mike Margerum in response to: Mike Margerum
On 10/9/2014 4:28 AM, Mike Margerum wrote:
Windows is rubbish! I only use it because I am forced to at the office.
At home I run FreeBSD and OSX for years - no problems compared to Windows.

I don't miss having to do my annual windows reinstall due to the machine
inexplicably coming to a crawl.

The best windows machine i've ever had is the one I have now. A windows
VM running in parallels on a mac book pro.

I used to do an annual Windows re-install, but it's been AT LEAST a
decade since the last time I've done one. The only "re-installs" I've
done in recent years have been to clean a machine before getting rid of
it, or when doing some (serious) hardware reconfiguration where I felt a
re-install was best.

I currently have a MacBook Pro and a Mac Mini on my desk, in conjunction
with about 5 Windows machines. I end up being far more frustrated with
the Mac machines than I do with Windows, but perhaps it's just because
I'm less familiar with the Macs (even though I got my first Mac six
years ago).

While I have attempted to do some Windows VM work on the Mac, due to the
nature of what I'm doing, that's not always feasible, and the Windows
machines remain my primary development (and use!) platform.

David Erbas-White
Luigi Sandon

Posts: 353
Registered: 10/15/99
Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple
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  Posted: Oct 10, 2014 1:15 PM   in response to: David Erbas-White in response to: David Erbas-White
I used to do an annual Windows re-install, but it's been AT LEAST a

I never did but on test machines. I usually keep "production" machine quite clean installing only what I really need to install, and avoiding "crapware" as much as I can. Often, developers of Windows applications are much more to blame than the OS itself, because there are very few applications that fully uninstall correctly without leaving behind something. Developers should learn to test setup also, and the uninstall procedure as well. Also, those who looks to believe their applications will be the only one installed on any given machine should be forbidden development for life. Alike those who believe they need at last a service, a registry run entry and probably a startup one just to check for updates they will never release.

Usually running Sysinternals' Autoruns after each install and killing all the useless stuff added by lame programmers is a good way to keep the system clean. If I were Microsoft, I'd forbid anything installed in a startup location unless it's signed with an expensive certificate and approved by MS.

Usually I do a full reinstall when upgrading to a new OS release, to ensure file system structure, drivers, etc. are the latest version, and nothing is left behind from the previous install.
Jouni Aro

Posts: 86
Registered: 9/4/97
Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple
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  Posted: Oct 10, 2014 1:22 PM   in response to: Luigi Sandon in response to: Luigi Sandon
On 10/10/14 23:15, Luigi Sandon wrote:
I used to do an annual Windows re-install, but it's been AT LEAST a

I never did but on test machines. I usually keep "production" machine quite clean installing only what I really need to install, and avoiding "crapware" as much as I can. Often, developers of Windows applications are much more to blame than the OS itself, because there are very few applications that fully uninstall correctly without leaving behind something. Developers should learn to test setup also, and the uninstall procedure as well. Also, those who looks to believe their applications will be the only
one installed on any given machine should be forbidden development for life.

Usually I do a full reinstall when upgrading to a new OS release, to ensure file system structure, drivers, etc. are the latest version, and nothing is left behind from the previous install.

Actually, you've just managed to described one big issue where OSX is
way better. Uninstall requires just that you move the application to the
trash can.

I find the whole Windows registry a big mess, and it also degrades the
performance the most as it keeps growing - and instead of having the OS
to keep it clean you need to get additional apps to clean it. BTW: I
think the only virus infection that I remember at the office occurred
after one of my colleagues had downloaded such a cleaner app from the
net. Turned out it did not clean much, but created a mess which required
a complete OS reinstall, since the AV stuff could not clean the mess
either...
Luigi Sandon

Posts: 353
Registered: 10/15/99
Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple
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  Posted: Oct 10, 2014 1:56 PM   in response to: Jouni Aro in response to: Jouni Aro
way better. Uninstall requires just that you move the application to the
trash can.

THat's just an UI gimmick, it's the process behind that is more interesting.

I find the whole Windows registry a big mess, and it also degrades the

No. The mess are developers for Windows. There are too many who never learnt to code for Windows properly, and thought the registry as a kitchen sink for all their crappy and useless stuff which could have been written elsewhere. The lack of properly understanding how the registry is designed and works, and how should be used, lead to big misuses. Coupled with poorly written installers (and applications creating registry data at will, especially in HKLM because everything run with admin rights), led to the actual situation.

I believe that often the average Mac developer is more skilled than the average Windows one. Tools like VB and Delphi unluckily made far too easy to write Windows applications (without knowing really how to code for Windows, and how Windows works), and often the result are a lot of very poorly written applications. Lack of "easy" tools mean developers needs to learn more before being able to write applications.

performance the most as it keeps growing - and instead of having the OS
to keep it clean you need to get additional apps to clean it. BTW: I

Unluckily, sometimes the OS has no way to know what should be cleaned and what not. That's another good reason to write setup using Windows Installer, which is able to track what is created and needs to be removed. But if you bypass its engine using Inno Setup or tools like that, is up to you to clean your mess properly - especially if you create registry data dynamically.

Maybe if MS asked $10 for every registry key and $1 for every value would have helped to force people to think about good written applications...
Steve Thackery

Posts: 151
Registered: 4/29/06
Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple
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  Posted: Oct 11, 2014 2:50 AM   in response to: Luigi Sandon in response to: Luigi Sandon
Luigi Sandon wrote:

I believe that often the average Mac developer is more skilled than
the average Windows one. Tools like VB and Delphi unluckily made far
too easy to write Windows applications (without knowing really how to
code for Windows, and how Windows works), and often the result are a
lot of very poorly written applications. Lack of "easy" tools mean
developers needs to learn more before being able to write
applications.

I totally agree with this. If OS X had to suffer the kind of appalling
crap that Windows gets thrown at it, it'd suffer much the same.

--
SteveT
Jouni Aro

Posts: 86
Registered: 9/4/97
Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple
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  Posted: Oct 11, 2014 4:38 AM   in response to: Luigi Sandon in response to: Luigi Sandon
On 10/10/14 23:56, Luigi Sandon wrote:
way better. Uninstall requires just that you move the application to the
trash can.

THat's just an UI gimmick, it's the process behind that is more interesting.

You see, I was not talking about the GUI. You are just moving the
directory to '/.Trashes' - with or without the GUI. Of course you can do
'rm -rf' as well from the command line.

Indeed, the process is the interesting part.

I find the whole Windows registry a big mess, and it also degrades the

No. The mess are developers for Windows. There are too many who never learnt to code for Windows properly, and thought the registry as a kitchen sink for all their crappy and useless stuff which could have been written elsewhere. The lack of properly understanding how the registry is designed and works, and how should be used, lead to big misuses. Coupled with poorly written installers (and applications creating registry data at will, especially in HKLM because everything run with admin rights), led to th
e actual situation.

I believe that often the average Mac developer is more skilled than the average Windows one. Tools like VB and Delphi unluckily made far too easy to write Windows applications (without knowing really how to code for Windows, and how Windows works), and often the result are a lot of very poorly written applications. Lack of "easy" tools mean developers needs to learn more before being able to write applications.

performance the most as it keeps growing - and instead of having the OS
to keep it clean you need to get additional apps to clean it. BTW: I

Unluckily, sometimes the OS has no way to know what should be cleaned and what not. That's another good reason to write setup using Windows Installer, which is able to track what is created and needs to be removed. But if you bypass its engine using Inno Setup or tools like that, is up to you to clean your mess properly - especially if you create registry data dynamically.

Maybe if MS asked $10 for every registry key and $1 for every value would have helped to force people to think about good written applications...

Thanks for extending the example, Luigi.

So if the OS is designed to allow such a mess, the problem is with the
developers?

How come the same (or even less skilled?) developers fail to create the
mess in Linux or OSX?
Luigi Sandon

Posts: 353
Registered: 10/15/99
Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple
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  Posted: Oct 11, 2014 6:46 AM   in response to: Jouni Aro in response to: Jouni Aro
.
So if the OS is designed to allow such a mess, the problem is with the
developers?

If developers misuse the OS is an OS fault? Sure, I wish Windows started blocking bad written applications. Probably a large share of Delphi written ones would stop working, and probably Delphi itself.

How come the same (or even less skilled?) developers fail to create the
mess in Linux or OSX?

You can find mess in Linux as well. A lot of Linux applications leave behind a lot of useless stuff when uninstalled. Linux packaging may be complex.

But Linux is a far less integrated OS then Windows. Linux is only a kernel, and other functionalities are built on it. The GUI system, printing, media support, cryptography, etc. Windows offers much more services itself, and has far more complex features - think about COM. That could avoid silly Linux practices like invoking a shell to perform some operations for lack of integration. But being more loosely tied to the OS, means usually stuff left behind only wastes disk space, nothing else.

The level of integration you may achieve in Windows means a more complex OS, and more complex code needs.

And anyway, again, the lack of simple tools for development, and stricter rules to follow or being regarded by peer developers some kind of lusers - who tries to write in /sbin with the same nonchalance some Windows developers write in system32, or write app conf and data in /bin? - helped to delivery of better written applications.
Jouni Aro

Posts: 86
Registered: 9/4/97
Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple
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  Posted: Oct 11, 2014 6:58 AM   in response to: Luigi Sandon in response to: Luigi Sandon
On 11/10/14 16:46, Luigi Sandon wrote:
.
So if the OS is designed to allow such a mess, the problem is with the
developers?

If developers misuse the OS is an OS fault? Sure, I wish Windows started blocking bad written applications. Probably a large share of Delphi written ones would stop working, and probably Delphi itself.

Of course it is the fault of the OS designers, if they never thought
what their system will end up in long run.

How come the same (or even less skilled?) developers fail to create the
mess in Linux or OSX?

You can find mess in Linux as well. A lot of Linux applications leave behind a lot of useless stuff when uninstalled. Linux packaging may be complex.

They may do, but as you mention additional files don't hurt anyone.
Especially on an OS that automatically takes care of the file system in
the background.

But Linux is a far less integrated OS then Windows. Linux is only a kernel, and other functionalities are built on it. The GUI system, cryptography, etc. Windows offers much more services itself, and has far more complex features - think about COM. That could avoid silly Linux practices like invoking a shell to perform some operations for lack of integration. But being more loosely tied to the OS, means usually stuff left behind only wastes disk space, nothing else.

Please, don't mention COM :) It is another piece of art from the same
developer, with the same principle: create something simple to tackle a
complicated task; let's forget about error handling etc. for a while; we
just need to get this up and running so that we can win the market. The
exact same issue they used for security design: nothing, until it
becomes a real problem. Well it did...

The level of integration you may achieve in Windows means a more complex OS, and more complex code needs.

It is more complex and therein lies the problems, since it's not
designed carefully enough to manage the complexity. As a result you have
issues that get glued on top, when they should have been solved in the
core of it. Of course, after 30 years of development it's also beginning
to look like it can manage everything. Provided that you get yourself a
new clean workstation every 3 to 5 years.

And anyway, again, the lack of simple tools for development, and stricter rules to follow or being regarded by peer developers some kind of lusers - who tries to write in /sbin with the same nonchalance some Windows developers write in system32, or write app conf and data in /bin? - helped to delivery of better written applications.

I don't quite understand, but yes: *nix has conventions for things. What
is your home directory in Windows, for example? Are all your application
settings there?

Can you really run your Windows OS in non-admin mode in practice?
Luigi Sandon

Posts: 353
Registered: 10/15/99
Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple
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  Posted: Oct 11, 2014 2:31 PM   in response to: Jouni Aro in response to: Jouni Aro
Of course it is the fault of the OS designers, if they never thought
what their system will end up in long run.

Sure. I hope one day Windows will listen to you and stops any crappy written application to run. I will laugh a lot that day, but I guess many Delphi developers will cry out id despair because their application will be killed.

If you ever read Raymond Chen's "The Old New Thing" blog. you'll understand how much efforts are put into Windows to let crappy application to run for "legacy" reasons, and often because those crappy application are written and used in large companies... often it's an instructive read about how you shouldn't write your applications. If OSX or Linux had the same kind of heritage they would be in the same situation. That's the dark side of running 90% of worldwide PCs... everybody who thinks he's a programmer because an application let him cobble together two lines of code started to develop for Windows...

Just, now that Delphi lets write OSX apps I'm sure the same crap will be soon available for OSX. It was a good thing Kylix went nowhere...

Especially on an OS that automatically takes care of the file system in
the background.

LOL! EXT4 caused more trouble than not - especially to those developers who used silly file patterns usage - or didn't use fsync() or used it wrongly. They had to add a special file system switch to take care for that. Does Linux deletes unused files left behind by applications in background? It doesn't look to me...

Please, don't mention COM :) It is another piece of art from the same

Just, COM is what makes many advanced features of Windows work, that completely don't exist in Linux and lead many Linux software to be forced to use ugly hacks to make applications work together. I'd suggest you to learn COM really and how is used in Windows, you would be surprised...

It is more complex and therein lies the problems, since it's not
designed carefully enough to manage the complexity. As a result you have

LOL! Win 3.1 and 95 days are gone, it's time Delphi developers start to learn newer version of Windows...

I don't quite understand, but yes: *nix has conventions for things. What
is your home directory in Windows, for example? Are all your application
settings there?

Just feel free to read the "Windows Development Guidelines". It's a read too many Windows developers, especially the Delphi ones, really miss. What Windows really lacks is the bashing of developers who don't code following the rules.

If you have ever tested your application with a non-admin user, you would have learnt since NT4 you can't store settings just using "ExtractFilePath(Application.ExeName)" - or if you had ever used services...

Can you really run your Windows OS in non-admin mode in practice?

Yes. And that's what any sensible company does.

Just you need to avoid all the crappy applications - often written by lazy Delphi developers - that don't work unless you have admin privileges because the developer never learnt to code for Windows past Windows 3.1 or 95.
Jouni Aro

Posts: 86
Registered: 9/4/97
Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple
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  Posted: Oct 11, 2014 3:24 PM   in response to: Luigi Sandon in response to: Luigi Sandon
On 12/10/14 00:31, Luigi Sandon wrote:
Of course it is the fault of the OS designers, if they never thought
what their system will end up in long run.

Sure. I hope one day Windows will listen to you and stops any crappy written application to run. I will laugh a lot that day, but I guess many Delphi developers will cry out id despair because their application will be killed.

If you ever read Raymond Chen's "The Old New Thing" blog. you'll understand how much efforts are put into Windows to let crappy application to run for "legacy" reasons, and often because those crappy application are written and used in large companies... often it's an instructive read about how you shouldn't write your applications. If OSX or Linux had the same kind of heritage they would be in the same situation. That's the dark side of running 90% of worldwide PCs... everybody who thinks he's a programm
er because an application let him cobble together two lines of code started to develop for Windows...

Just, now that Delphi lets write OSX apps I'm sure the same crap will be soon available for OSX. It was a good thing Kylix went nowhere...

You forget that *nix systems carry an even longer legacy. But they never
took the shortest path to get to the target. Therefore it has often
seemed that it develops too slowly.

Especially on an OS that automatically takes care of the file system in
the background.

LOL! EXT4 caused more trouble than not - especially to those developers who used silly file patterns usage - or didn't use fsync() or used it wrongly. They had to add a special file system switch to take care for that. Does Linux deletes unused files left behind by applications in background? It doesn't look to me...

I don't say there haven't been any mistakes. Just that the main
architecture has been thought of and built brick by brick. Of course
there may be bad bricks at some point. IMO, Windows has always been
built to look good and easy and do it quick to win the market. As a
result it has been completely missing some vital bricks from the basement.

Please, don't mention COM :) It is another piece of art from the same

Just, COM is what makes many advanced features of Windows work, that completely don't exist in Linux and lead many Linux software to be forced to use ugly hacks to make applications work together. I'd suggest you to learn COM really and how is used in Windows, you would be surprised...

I know too well how COM works and how much the whole system relies on
it. I have written several applications that use COM and I know you can
make it work. The problem is just that you actually must know almost
every tiny detail of it to make it work. I would have preferred a system
that takes care of the main infrastructure. Instead it leaves everything
to the developer. Quite similar to the installers: you need to become a
master before you learn all the tricks and details you need to do to
make the apps install and uninstall properly.

Which threading model do you usually prefer, by the way: Apartment or Free?

It is more complex and therein lies the problems, since it's not
designed carefully enough to manage the complexity. As a result you have

LOL! Win 3.1 and 95 days are gone, it's time Delphi developers start to learn newer version of Windows...

I have said that after 30 years it is indeed time that it finally works.
At least it looks like it.

Maybe it takes another 30 years to make all the legacy applications
behave correctly as well.

I don't quite understand, but yes: *nix has conventions for things. What
is your home directory in Windows, for example? Are all your application
settings there?

Just feel free to read the "Windows Development Guidelines". It's a read too many Windows developers, especially the Delphi ones, really miss. What Windows really lacks is the bashing of developers who don't code following the rules.

If you have ever tested your application with a non-admin user, you would have learnt since NT4 you can't store settings just using "ExtractFilePath(Application.ExeName)" - or if you had ever used services...

I already asked how come developers have missed such vital information
for Windows and seem to get it for the other ones?

Show me an application that kept data or .ini-files somewhere else than
the INSTALL_DIR of the application or 'C:\Windows' in NT4.

Services start by default at System32 (not sure of 64-bit, though) - is
that the correct place for service application settings?

Can you really run your Windows OS in non-admin mode in practice?

Yes. And that's what any sensible company does.

I asked you: Can you run it yourself? I can tell you that I can't.

Just you need to avoid all the crappy applications - often written by lazy Delphi developers - that don't work unless you have admin privileges because the developer never learnt to code for Windows past Windows 3.1 or 95.

Exactly. Rules changed at some point, but did Delphi change
respectively? Honestly, if you write an application today, should you
use ini-files or the registry? Where should you install the DLLs that
your application is perhaps using - System32 or INSTALL_DIR? I honestly
have no idea.

I can see that some applications nowadays decide to install themselves
to the user's directory (Chrome, for example). Is it proper practice to
install the complete application separately for each user?

I found "Guidelines" from the Windows Developer Guide at
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/dn688964(v=vs.85).aspx

I find no mention of application settings or installer there. I cannot
find any "Windows Development Guidelines". Maybe you can help me.
Steve Thackery

Posts: 151
Registered: 4/29/06
Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple
Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this thread Reply
  Posted: Oct 11, 2014 5:43 PM   in response to: Jouni Aro in response to: Jouni Aro
Jouni Aro wrote:

IMO, Windows has always been
built to look good and easy and do it quick to win the market. As a
result it has been completely missing some vital bricks from the
basement.

It sounds to me like you don't know much about how Windows was
developed. Get yourself a copy of Helen Custer's "Inside Windows NT" -
it's informative.

--
SteveT
Jouni Aro

Posts: 86
Registered: 9/4/97
Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple
Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this thread Reply
  Posted: Oct 12, 2014 4:30 AM   in response to: Steve Thackery in response to: Steve Thackery
On 12/10/14 03:43, Steve Thackery wrote:
Jouni Aro wrote:

IMO, Windows has always been
built to look good and easy and do it quick to win the market. As a
result it has been completely missing some vital bricks from the
basement.

It sounds to me like you don't know much about how Windows was
developed. Get yourself a copy of Helen Custer's "Inside Windows NT" -
it's informative.

Yeah, I don't know the process, but I know the results. I believe they
have done their best.

Security, file system, user settings vs system settings, COM, etc. were
initially half-baked, if they were there at all. All of them have
required hard work and a few iterations to become what they are nowadays.

I don't doubt that it does work by now. Designing a good OS takes time.

But my Linux boxes were on that level already 20 years ago. They were
just missing the fancy GUI applications, which has been the problematic
part of *nix systems. OSX solves that and therefore finally makes a
perfect system for me. I am not that excited about Windows any more
(well I never was), except that since most of our customers use it, most
app development must target it as well, and therefore I have had to
learn it more than I ever wanted. Luckily Delphi has been one of the
rare things I have always liked, since it has a good, endurable design.

I studied COM already in 1990s. I actually got a book that compared DCOM
to CORBA. Having read that, I wished I would never need to do any COM
development. Turned out that was the main thing I did for the next 10
years. Never got into any CORBA work. And the main reason DCOM was
successful and CORBA wasn't, IMO, was that DCOM is free in Windows and
CORBA was an expensive add-on, so nearly nowbody wanted to use it. The
best technology hardly ever wins on its own.
Brandon Staggs

Posts: 683
Registered: 3/3/01
Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple
Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this thread Reply
  Posted: Oct 12, 2014 6:08 AM   in response to: Steve Thackery in response to: Steve Thackery
"Steve Thackery" wrote on Sat, 11 Oct 2014 17:43:36 -0700:

Jouni Aro wrote:

IMO, Windows has always been
built to look good and easy and do it quick to win the market. As a
result it has been completely missing some vital bricks from the
basement.

It sounds to me like you don't know much about how Windows was
developed. Get yourself a copy of Helen Custer's "Inside Windows NT" -
it's informative.

The two books I suggest to get some perspective on how these operating
systems were developed are Showstopper by G. Pascal Zachary and The
Old New Thing by Raymond Chen. I'll add your suggestion to my reading
list.

--
Brandon Staggs
StudyLamp Software LLC
http://www.studylamp.com
Steve Thackery

Posts: 151
Registered: 4/29/06
Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple
Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this thread Reply
  Posted: Oct 11, 2014 5:52 PM   in response to: Jouni Aro in response to: Jouni Aro
Jouni Aro wrote:

I find no mention of application settings or installer there. I
cannot find any "Windows Development Guidelines". Maybe you can help
me.

Search for the Microsoft document called '"Designed for Microsoft
Windows XP" Application Specification'

Mine is Version 2.3, dated January 2, 2002. Obviously there must be
more up to date equivalents, but this one covers pretty well all the
stuff we've been talking about.

--
SteveT
Jouni Aro

Posts: 86
Registered: 9/4/97
Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple
Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this thread Reply
  Posted: Oct 12, 2014 4:31 AM   in response to: Steve Thackery in response to: Steve Thackery
On 12/10/14 03:52, Steve Thackery wrote:
Jouni Aro wrote:

I find no mention of application settings or installer there. I
cannot find any "Windows Development Guidelines". Maybe you can help
me.

Search for the Microsoft document called '"Designed for Microsoft
Windows XP" Application Specification'

Mine is Version 2.3, dated January 2, 2002. Obviously there must be
more up to date equivalents, but this one covers pretty well all the
stuff we've been talking about.

Couldn't find it. Or any more recent ones with such a title.
Daniel Rail

Posts: 23
Registered: 11/27/06
Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple
Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this thread Reply
  Posted: Oct 15, 2014 3:18 AM   in response to: Jouni Aro in response to: Jouni Aro
On 2014-10-12 8:31 AM, Jouni Aro wrote:
On 12/10/14 03:52, Steve Thackery wrote:
Jouni Aro wrote:

I find no mention of application settings or installer there. I
cannot find any "Windows Development Guidelines". Maybe you can help
me.

Search for the Microsoft document called '"Designed for Microsoft
Windows XP" Application Specification'

Mine is Version 2.3, dated January 2, 2002. Obviously there must be
more up to date equivalents, but this one covers pretty well all the
stuff we've been talking about.

Couldn't find it. Or any more recent ones with such a title.

I was able to find it by doing a search using Bing.

And, here's the most recent one, for Windows 7/8.x/Server 2008/2012:
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/hh848074(v=vs.85).aspx

Daniel Rail
Jouni Aro

Posts: 86
Registered: 9/4/97
Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple
Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this thread Reply
  Posted: Oct 15, 2014 4:00 AM   in response to: Daniel Rail in response to: Daniel Rail
On 15/10/14 13:18, Daniel Rail wrote:
I was able to find it by doing a search using Bing.

And, here's the most recent one, for Windows 7/8.x/Server 2008/2012:
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/hh848074(v=vs.85).aspx

Thanks. So 'compatibility cookbook' is the correct name for it at the
moment.
Luigi Sandon

Posts: 353
Registered: 10/15/99
Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple
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  Posted: Oct 12, 2014 12:10 PM   in response to: Jouni Aro in response to: Jouni Aro
You forget that *nix systems carry an even longer legacy. But they never

Yes, but not of the crap written for Windows. Unix systems were never coded by VB or Delphi developers.

architecture has been thought of and built brick by brick. Of course

No. It just happened that way because of how it was developerd. Especially Linux were Torvalds just made a kernel, and someone else had to build the rest. It was designed so, it happened so.

But look, for example, at how POSIX file locking is hopelessy broken, thanks to the POSIX committee approach... or the totally outdated standard file security model, now useless in large deployment and requiring add-ons to work.

every tiny detail of it to make it work. I would have preferred a system

So what? You mean you don't need to learn who to properly code something? COM is difficult because of its very open and versatile architecture. And it is far still better than simpler but silly architectures like REST (which have very little security also). But oh yes, lame developer can call an URL...

But have you ever tried to use OpenSSL fully? It is very complex and difficult to use - and that's why many bugs went unnoticed for so long....

to the developer. Quite similar to the installers: you need to become a

Try to write a Linux package properly. It could be trickier than a Windows installer.

Which threading model do you usually prefer, by the way: Apartment or Free?

Depends on the application.

I have said that after 30 years it is indeed time that it finally works.

Actually it's working since at least Windows 2000. And with far more feature than *nixes that are still living in the past. But I wonder why you code for a such inferior OS like Windows... is it to difficult coding for other OSes without a RAD tool?

Maybe it takes another 30 years to make all the legacy applications
behave correctly as well.

Legacy application works far better than on any Linux system where you're lucky if you still can recompile them.

I already asked how come developers have missed such vital information
for Windows and seem to get it for the other ones?

Because too many Windows developers are low-end ones. They learned to code with VB or Delphi 1 in Windows 3.1 cobbling add some code to assign to a button, and never updated their skills. Hey, why learn something new if the app still works?

Show me an application that kept data or .ini-files somewhere else than
the INSTALL_DIR of the application or 'C:\Windows' in NT4.

Even if the system does not give you a ready made directory for data, nobody forbids you to create one outside the system directory, assign proper privileges on it, and maybe write a registry value to point at it. That's what good developers did and do, while lazy ones horrified than having to write a few lines of code more prefer bad shortcuts.

Services start by default at System32 (not sure of 64-bit, though) - is
that the correct place for service application settings?

No. That's what the registry is for. Write there where the service can find what it needs...

I asked you: Can you run it yourself? I can tell you that I can't.

Yes, I do. I have two separate users. One unprivileged for the usual tasks, and one privileged ones used only for those tasks that really needs it like installing software or debugging. But common user doesn't need debugging... running as an unprivileged users ensure that most malware will have an hard time trying to compromise my system. Feel free to force your user to run as admins because you don't care, and think it is impossible to run software without high privileges...

Exactly. Rules changed at some point, but did Delphi change
respectively? Honestly, if you write an application today, should you
use ini-files or the registry? Where should you install the DLLs that
your application is perhaps using - System32 or INSTALL_DIR? I honestly
have no idea.

Rules changes and developers needs to update their knowledge and update applications. One of the reasons Delphi is now an outdated tool is its developers tool often code for a Windows that no longer exists.

Registry and configuration files are not mutually exclusive. A good rule of thumb is minimize the data you write in the registry - usually just a few vital ones the app need to access at startup - and write everything else in files stored where they should be. Some registry entries may also be needed if you want to GPO enable your applications.

Application DLLs should be private to the application, hence in the application directory. If you want to share DLLs, there are proper techniques (i.e. <common files>) - writing in System32 is the wrong one.

I can see that some applications nowadays decide to install themselves
to the user's directory (Chrome, for example). Is it proper practice to
install the complete application separately for each user?

Chrome does exactly what Windows should block for the sake of the OS. It installs itself as a malware for users who can't install software (because they have not that right, correctly), because Google needs to steal as much user data as it can. We have software exactly to stop that kind of rogue applications until Microsoft decides stops them, even if I can already hear the screaming complain from Google because it blocks a competitor "browser" - which again, installs as only a malware would attempt to do. But Google is the largest malware creator around...

I would like what Linux developer would say if a software tries to install executable that way on their systems.

I find no mention of application settings or installer there. I cannot
find any "Windows Development Guidelines". Maybe you can help me.

Oh, yes, Delphi developers are lazy even with searches:

Start here:

http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/desktop/aa511258.aspx (or here http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/windows/desktop/dn688964.aspx)

Click "Experience" (it says "setup" too) then "setup"

http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/desktop/aa511258.aspx

Read until it says "Copy program files to the proper file system locations" and click "Windows File System Namespace Usage Guidelines"

Oh my god! A full document about it!

But feel free to keep on developing ignoring the huge documentation available on MSDN, you can always blame the system is something doesn't work, can't you?
Jouni Aro

Posts: 86
Registered: 9/4/97
Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple
Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this thread Reply
  Posted: Oct 13, 2014 1:39 PM   in response to: Luigi Sandon in response to: Luigi Sandon
On 12/10/14 22:10, Luigi Sandon wrote:
You forget that *nix systems carry an even longer legacy. But they never

Yes, but not of the crap written for Windows. Unix systems were never coded by VB or Delphi developers.

Indeed. Nevertheless, you cannot blame the OS for the applications
developed for it. OS design is OS design.

architecture has been thought of and built brick by brick. Of course

No. It just happened that way because of how it was developerd. Especially Linux were Torvalds just made a kernel, and someone else had to build the rest. It was designed so, it happened so.

Linux IS mostly a kernel for x86. The rest is mostly legacy from GNU.

But look, for example, at how POSIX file locking is hopelessy broken, thanks to the POSIX committee approach... or the totally outdated standard file security model, now useless in large deployment and requiring add-ons to work.

every tiny detail of it to make it work. I would have preferred a system

So what? You mean you don't need to learn who to properly code something? COM is difficult because of its very open and versatile architecture. And it is far still better than simpler but silly architectures like REST (which have very little security also). But oh yes, lame developer can call an URL...

No, COM is difficult because it provides a 50% solution to a remote
communication "framework". The rest must be handled in the application
layer - resulting to a lot of work that could have been handled in the
framework.

Try to write a Linux package properly. It could be trickier than a Windows installer.

I believe it can be. Writing a Windows installer can be very easy: just
pick a product that's supposed to do it properly. :)

Which threading model do you usually prefer, by the way: Apartment or Free?

Depends on the application.

Exactly.

I have said that after 30 years it is indeed time that it finally works.

Actually it's working since at least Windows 2000. And with far more feature than *nixes that are still living in the past. But I wonder why you code for a such inferior OS like Windows... is it to difficult coding for other OSes without a RAD tool?

Yes, Windows 2000 works very well. Unless you care about security for
example...

I explained you why I write software for Windows in another message, in
which I explained my relationship to COM in more detail as well...

I already asked how come developers have missed such vital information
for Windows and seem to get it for the other ones?

Because too many Windows developers are low-end ones. They learned to code with VB or Delphi 1 in Windows 3.1 cobbling add some code to assign to a button, and never updated their skills. Hey, why learn something new if the app still works?

Or because most of them stopped maintaining their VB/Delphi application
when they moved to .NET...

Show me an application that kept data or .ini-files somewhere else than
the INSTALL_DIR of the application or 'C:\Windows' in NT4.

Even if the system does not give you a ready made directory for data, nobody forbids you to create one outside the system directory, assign proper privileges on it, and maybe write a registry value to point at it. That's what good developers did and do, while lazy ones horrified than having to write a few lines of code more prefer bad shortcuts.

Have you ever seen such applications, for example from Microsoft, that
behave so in NT4 or Win2000?

Services start by default at System32 (not sure of 64-bit, though) - is
that the correct place for service application settings?

No. That's what the registry is for. Write there where the service can find what it needs...

I asked you: Can you run it yourself? I can tell you that I can't.

Yes, I do. I have two separate users. One unprivileged for the usual tasks, and one privileged ones used only for those tasks that really needs it like installing software or debugging. But common user doesn't need debugging... running as an unprivileged users ensure that most malware will have an hard time trying to compromise my system. Feel free to force your user to run as admins because you don't care, and think it is impossible to run software without high privileges...

Sounds fine. I admit that I am too lazy and don't want to use separate
accounts in my personal Windows. I don't even which to use UAC. Both of
them cause more trouble than they solve for me.

Exactly. Rules changed at some point, but did Delphi change
respectively? Honestly, if you write an application today, should you
use ini-files or the registry? Where should you install the DLLs that
your application is perhaps using - System32 or INSTALL_DIR? I honestly
have no idea.

Rules changes and developers needs to update their knowledge and update applications. One of the reasons Delphi is now an outdated tool is its developers tool often code for a Windows that no longer exists.

Registry and configuration files are not mutually exclusive. A good rule of thumb is minimize the data you write in the registry - usually just a few vital ones the app need to access at startup - and write everything else in files stored where they should be. Some registry entries may also be needed if you want to GPO enable your applications.

Application DLLs should be private to the application, hence in the application directory. If you want to share DLLs, there are proper techniques (i.e. <common files>) - writing in System32 is the wrong one.

I can see that some applications nowadays decide to install themselves
to the user's directory (Chrome, for example). Is it proper practice to
install the complete application separately for each user?

Chrome does exactly what Windows should block for the sake of the OS. It installs itself as a malware for users who can't install software (because they have not that right, correctly), because Google needs to steal as much user data as it can. We have software exactly to stop that kind of rogue applications until Microsoft decides stops them, even if I can already hear the screaming complain from Google because it blocks a competitor "browser" - which again, installs as only a malware would attempt to do
. But Google is the largest malware creator around...

I would like what Linux developer would say if a software tries to install executable that way on their systems.

It is perfectly valid to install binaries in your own directory. The
reason Chrome does it, as I understand it, is that it's safer: the app
cannot ruin the whole system even in theory. Another reason is that
people can install it even though they don't have admin rights.

JavaFX nowadays helps you to create installation packages as well -
which is one of the nice features of it. You get Windows, Linux
(deb&rpm) and OSX installers from "common" definitions. For Windows you
also have an option to create a user-based installer, which installs the
application in your user folder.


I find no mention of application settings or installer there. I cannot
find any "Windows Development Guidelines". Maybe you can help me.

Oh, yes, Delphi developers are lazy even with searches:

Start here:

http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/desktop/aa511258.aspx (or here http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/windows/desktop/dn688964.aspx)

Click "Experience" (it says "setup" too) then "setup"

http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/desktop/aa511258.aspx

Read until it says "Copy program files to the proper file system locations" and click "Windows File System Namespace Usage Guidelines"

Oh my god! A full document about it!

Thanks. Yeah, I was indeed a bit lazy. I did not go through all the
items, and did not guess it was under Experience...

But feel free to keep on developing ignoring the huge documentation available on MSDN, you can always blame the system is something doesn't work, can't you?

I have not ignored those rules, although I have never seen the document.
It's just a bit odd to blame all Delphi developers that they have not
seen such a document, if it's not any easier to locate.

After all, most people use an installer application, that's supposed to
do it properly. Having worked with those, WiX was the first usable
alternative - and it's been around relatively short time.
Steve Thackery

Posts: 151
Registered: 4/29/06
Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple
Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this thread Reply
  Posted: Oct 11, 2014 5:39 PM   in response to: Luigi Sandon in response to: Luigi Sandon
Luigi Sandon wrote:

If you ever read Raymond Chen's "The Old New Thing" blog. you'll
understand how much efforts are put into Windows to let crappy
application to run for "legacy" reasons,

Absolutely spot on. MS have always leant over backwards to maintain
backward compatibility (my 32-bit W7 installation would run almost all
DOS programs), even to the point where it may compromise performance or
security. People may think that was a bad decision, but you can be
sure it was a carefully considered one. It resulted in Windows being
the massive success it has been.

If OSX or Linux had the same kind of heritage they
would be in the same situation.

This is conjecture, of course, but I'm inclined to agree.

--
SteveT
Jouni Aro

Posts: 86
Registered: 9/4/97
Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple
Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this thread Reply
  Posted: Oct 12, 2014 4:33 AM   in response to: Steve Thackery in response to: Steve Thackery
On 12/10/14 03:39, Steve Thackery wrote:
Luigi Sandon wrote:

If you ever read Raymond Chen's "The Old New Thing" blog. you'll
understand how much efforts are put into Windows to let crappy
application to run for "legacy" reasons,

Absolutely spot on. MS have always leant over backwards to maintain
backward compatibility (my 32-bit W7 installation would run almost all
DOS programs), even to the point where it may compromise performance or
security. People may think that was a bad decision, but you can be
sure it was a carefully considered one. It resulted in Windows being
the massive success it has been.

Of course.

If OSX or Linux had the same kind of heritage they
would be in the same situation.

This is conjecture, of course, but I'm inclined to agree.

The *nix applications written in 1970s are working all right in OSX and
Linux. X11 GUI applications also.
Luigi Sandon

Posts: 353
Registered: 10/15/99
Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple
Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this thread Reply
  Posted: Oct 12, 2014 12:17 PM   in response to: Steve Thackery in response to: Steve Thackery
security. People may think that was a bad decision, but you can be
sure it was a carefully considered one. It resulted in Windows being

If you read Chen's blog, you discover sometimes very big MS customers need to run bad written apps. If you're a business, you're not going to lose big revenues for pure "technical" reasons.

Unluckily, that's what pays your salary....
Steve Thackery

Posts: 151
Registered: 4/29/06
Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple
Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this thread Reply
  Posted: Oct 11, 2014 5:57 PM   in response to: Luigi Sandon in response to: Luigi Sandon
Luigi Sandon wrote:

Just feel free to read the "Windows Development Guidelines". It's a
read too many Windows developers, especially the Delphi ones, really
miss.

I think you mean the "Designed for Windows XP" Application
Specification. Anyway, it contains a lot of really valuable - and
important - information, most of which remains relevant to this day.

I'm not in a position to do this, but I'd love to conduct a poll of the
professional developers in this group to find out how many have
actually read it (or its more modern equivalents). I bet the number
would be embarrassingly low.

--
SteveT
Jouni Aro

Posts: 86
Registered: 9/4/97
Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple
Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this thread Reply
  Posted: Oct 12, 2014 4:33 AM   in response to: Steve Thackery in response to: Steve Thackery
On 12/10/14 03:57, Steve Thackery wrote:
Luigi Sandon wrote:

Just feel free to read the "Windows Development Guidelines". It's a
read too many Windows developers, especially the Delphi ones, really
miss.

I think you mean the "Designed for Windows XP" Application
Specification. Anyway, it contains a lot of really valuable - and
important - information, most of which remains relevant to this day.

I'm not in a position to do this, but I'd love to conduct a poll of the
professional developers in this group to find out how many have
actually read it (or its more modern equivalents). I bet the number
would be embarrassingly low.

Me too, considering that they cannot be found anywhere.
Luigi Sandon

Posts: 353
Registered: 10/15/99
Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple
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  Posted: Oct 12, 2014 12:24 PM   in response to: Steve Thackery in response to: Steve Thackery
I think you mean the "Designed for Windows XP" Application

No, it's not that. There's a large part of MSDN devoted to how properly code applications for Windows. There are changes with every release of Windows - and you can find old Windows implementations as examples of how not to do something. MS is not hiding sometimes it got it wrong too.

It's here: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/desktop/aa511258.aspx
Steve Thackery

Posts: 151
Registered: 4/29/06
Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple
Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this thread Reply
  Posted: Oct 12, 2014 4:27 PM   in response to: Luigi Sandon in response to: Luigi Sandon
Luigi Sandon wrote:


Ah, thanks - very interesting and I'll be having a good look at that.

--
SteveT
Quentin Correll


Posts: 2,412
Registered: 12/1/99
Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple
Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this thread Reply
  Posted: Oct 12, 2014 4:33 PM   in response to: Luigi Sandon in response to: Luigi Sandon
Luigi,

| It's here:
| http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/desktop/aa511258.aspx

Very first line I read: "Apps use tiles instead of icons." is BS. I've
been calling my Windows applications "apps" for decades! <g>

--

Q

1.19.1.372 (Q's Broken Toolbar.)
Steve Thackery

Posts: 151
Registered: 4/29/06
Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple
Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this thread Reply
  Posted: Oct 11, 2014 5:40 PM   in response to: Jouni Aro in response to: Jouni Aro
Jouni Aro wrote:

Can you really run your Windows OS in non-admin mode in practice?

Yes!! A thousand times, yes.

--
SteveT
Jouni Aro

Posts: 86
Registered: 9/4/97
Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple
Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this thread Reply
  Posted: Oct 12, 2014 4:34 AM   in response to: Steve Thackery in response to: Steve Thackery
On 12/10/14 03:40, Steve Thackery wrote:
Jouni Aro wrote:

Can you really run your Windows OS in non-admin mode in practice?

Yes!! A thousand times, yes.

Good for you. I've tried but eventually it becomes too painful for me.
Steve Thackery

Posts: 151
Registered: 4/29/06
Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple
Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this thread Reply
  Posted: Oct 12, 2014 12:18 PM   in response to: Jouni Aro in response to: Jouni Aro
Jouni Aro wrote:

Good for you. I've tried but eventually it becomes too painful for me.

Actually, I'm sure I don't understand the details, because I understand
that even if you are logged on as an Administrator, you don't have
Admin rights automatically; you have to click the UAC prompt. When you
are NOT logged on as an Administrator, you have to enter an Admin
password, as well.

So (as I understand it) running as Admin in Windows 7+ isn't as
"dangerous" as running superuser in Linux.

I'm the first to admit that my understanding of the security models in
the two OSs is pretty weak, so feel free to tear the above to shreds.
:-)

--
SteveT
Jouni Aro

Posts: 86
Registered: 9/4/97
Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple
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  Posted: Oct 13, 2014 1:45 PM   in response to: Steve Thackery in response to: Steve Thackery
On 12/10/14 22:18, Steve Thackery wrote:
Jouni Aro wrote:

Good for you. I've tried but eventually it becomes too painful for me.

Actually, I'm sure I don't understand the details, because I understand
that even if you are logged on as an Administrator, you don't have
Admin rights automatically; you have to click the UAC prompt. When you
are NOT logged on as an Administrator, you have to enter an Admin
password, as well.

So (as I understand it) running as Admin in Windows 7+ isn't as
"dangerous" as running superuser in Linux.

I'm the first to admit that my understanding of the security models in
the two OSs is pretty weak, so feel free to tear the above to shreds.
:-)

Yes, the Windows model is still a bit odd in my opinion.

In OSX it's clear: you always log in with your own account. If an
operation needs admin rights, you are always prompted for your password.

In Linux, you use sudo, to make yourself admin temporarily. It also asks
for your password.

Modern Linux or OSX does not enable you to log in as 'root', i.e. admin
at all.
Graeme Geldenhuys

Posts: 152
Registered: 5/25/01
Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple [Edit]
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  Posted: Oct 12, 2014 10:59 PM   in response to: Luigi Sandon in response to: Luigi Sandon
On 2014-10-11 14:48, Luigi Sandon wrote:
If developers misuse the OS is an OS fault?

Definitely yes!!! It was Windows's fault to allow all programs to run
with Admin access - that is no fault of the developer. Microsoft waited
WAY to long to rectify the problem. From the start Linux and FreeBSD
restricted that, and thus viruses are no issue, programs messing with
the OS settings is no issue. A good design in the OS that guides the
developers down the right path.

Regards,
- Graeme -

Luigi Sandon

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Registered: 10/15/99
Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple [Edit]
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  Posted: Oct 13, 2014 12:13 AM   in response to: Graeme Geldenhuys in response to: Graeme Geldenhuys
Definitely yes!!! It was Windows's fault to allow all programs to run

LOL! Or the problem is all the crappy code that doesn't work if you don't have admin rights because the developer had no clue about how to write it properly, and never test it accordingly?

As I suggested elsewhere, read the "Old New Thing" blog. First, you'll undestand why Windows has to allow for "misuse" from bad code or break a lot of bad written applications. Second, you'll learn a lot about how to write good Windows applications...

WAY to long to rectify the problem. From the start Linux and FreeBSD
restricted that, and thus viruses are no issue, programs messing with

Unix systems come from large centralized ones with highly controlled access due to shared resources and multiple users using the system at the same time (and hacking was born exactly to get around those controls...). Windows was born from single user machines without any control - and that lead programmers to "learn" coding in the worst possible way, and never change their mindset after it. But sure, it's far easier to blame the OS than your lack of proper coding skills..

"Viruses are no issue"? Do you still believe "viruses" are the problem? Do you know how many *nixes got compromised every day? Do you believe that's only a Windows problem? Oh sure, they told you they are "secure just because", and you just believe them. Time to update your knowledge....

the OS settings is no issue. A good design in the OS that guides the
developers down the right path.

ROTFL! You can misuse Unixes, Linuxes and *BSDs whatever you like - do you know how much custom-written Linux code I've see running as "root" because the programmer was too lazy to write it correctly? There's nothing in those OS to "guide developers down the right path" - just most of their developers stick to rules (sometimes even in a religious way...) while Windows ones still believes they're coding for DOS....

But keep on believing just using a different OS makes you "better" - not how well you code for every OS...
David Erbas-White

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Registered: 10/11/99
Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple [Edit]
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  Posted: Oct 13, 2014 8:29 AM   in response to: Luigi Sandon in response to: Luigi Sandon
On 10/13/2014 12:13 AM, Luigi Sandon wrote:

... while Windows ones still believes they're coding for DOS....

I think the above is the single largest cause of Windows coding
problems, and I'll plead guilty to it myself. It took a while to change
mindsets...

David Erbas-White
Jouni Aro

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Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple [Edit]
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  Posted: Oct 13, 2014 1:51 PM   in response to: Luigi Sandon in response to: Luigi Sandon
On 13/10/14 10:13, Luigi Sandon wrote:
But keep on believing just using a different OS makes you "better" - not how well you code for every OS...

We have just mentioned why we think the *nix OSes are better. To me it
seems that you agree, since you admit that Windows carries the legacy to
single-user versions.

If they look similar today, is mainly because Windows has adopted a lot
of similar features. To me they still seem odd, since the target is
still not to make Windows look like a multi-user OS: rather a desktop
OS, which can handle several users.
Brandon Staggs

Posts: 683
Registered: 3/3/01
Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple
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  Posted: Oct 11, 2014 5:41 AM   in response to: Jouni Aro in response to: Jouni Aro
"Jouni Aro" wrote on Fri, 10 Oct 2014 13:22:48 -0700:

I find the whole Windows registry a big mess, and it also degrades the
performance the most as it keeps growing - and instead of having the OS
to keep it clean you need to get additional apps to clean it

Those snake-oil registry cleaners do NOTHING to help PCs. Even if you
have "left over registry entries" they are not hurting anything.
People running those things are creating their own problems.

I've tracked down problems for customers directly caused by registry
cleaners. One example: Some helpful "make your computer faster"
registry cleaner was deleting entries from my software's registry
nodes because it decided that they contained invalid file paths. I
was using a string to store lists of file paths delimited by
semicolons. The registry cleaner decided that since a semicolon is
not a valid file path that the registry entry should be deleted.

--
Brandon Staggs
StudyLamp Software LLC
http://www.studylamp.com
Jouni Aro

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Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple
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  Posted: Oct 11, 2014 6:47 AM   in response to: Brandon Staggs in response to: Brandon Staggs
On 11/10/14 15:41, Brandon Staggs wrote:
"Jouni Aro" wrote on Fri, 10 Oct 2014 13:22:48 -0700:

I find the whole Windows registry a big mess, and it also degrades the
performance the most as it keeps growing - and instead of having the OS
to keep it clean you need to get additional apps to clean it

Those snake-oil registry cleaners do NOTHING to help PCs. Even if you
have "left over registry entries" they are not hurting anything.
People running those things are creating their own problems.

Yeah, I don't use the cleaners, since I also don't believe they can
solve anything.
Graeme Geldenhuys

Posts: 152
Registered: 5/25/01
Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple
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  Posted: Oct 9, 2014 1:20 PM   in response to: Mike Margerum in response to: Mike Margerum
On 2014-10-09 12:28, Mike Margerum wrote:

I don't miss having to do my annual windows reinstall due to the machine
inexplicably coming to a crawl.

Ah yes, I forgot to mention that little nugget. And again, only a trait
of a Windows OS. Never happened on FreeBSD, Linux or OSX.

The best windows machine i've ever had is the one I have now. A windows
VM running in parallels on a mac book pro.

:-D

Regards,
- Graeme -

Graeme Geldenhuys

Posts: 152
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Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple
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  Posted: Oct 8, 2014 3:30 PM   in response to: Dominique Willems in response to: Dominique Willems
On 2014-10-08 15:38, Dominique Willems wrote:
What graphic arts programs work better on a Mac?

Adobe Lightoom was a nightmare on my wife's Windows computer. Constant
crashed, Windows freezes etc. We then bought her an iMac. 4 years on and
Lightroom and OSX still runs perfect without a hitch.

Regards,
- Graeme -

Dominique Willems

Posts: 591
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Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple
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  Posted: Oct 8, 2014 3:49 PM   in response to: Graeme Geldenhuys in response to: Graeme Geldenhuys
Graeme Geldenhuys wrote:
Adobe Lightoom was a nightmare on my wife's Windows computer.

What kind of PC did she have? What price?
Graeme Geldenhuys

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Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple
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  Posted: Oct 9, 2014 1:08 PM   in response to: Dominique Willems in response to: Dominique Willems
On 2014-10-08 23:49, Dominique Willems wrote:

What kind of PC did she have? What price?

A high spec desktop PC from 5 years ago. Bought at PC World. There was
nothing wrong with the PC hardware, because after she got the iMac I
used her PC as a Linux server streaming media to our TV - worked like a
charm.

Regards,
- Graeme -

Markus Humm

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Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple
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  Posted: Oct 9, 2014 2:33 PM   in response to: Graeme Geldenhuys in response to: Graeme Geldenhuys
Am 09.10.2014 22:08, schrieb Graeme Geldenhuys:
On 2014-10-08 23:49, Dominique Willems wrote:

What kind of PC did she have? What price?

A high spec desktop PC from 5 years ago. Bought at PC World. There was
nothing wrong with the PC hardware, because after she got the iMac I
used her PC as a Linux server streaming media to our TV - worked like a
charm.

Hello,

but then this looks like Lightroom for Windows was the culprit!

Greetings

Markus
Dominique Willems

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Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple
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  Posted: Oct 9, 2014 3:22 PM   in response to: Graeme Geldenhuys in response to: Graeme Geldenhuys
Graeme Geldenhuys wrote:
There was
nothing wrong with the PC hardware

What makes you think there was anything wrong the OS, and not the
software she was running? Virus scanners?
Luigi Sandon

Posts: 353
Registered: 10/15/99
Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple
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  Posted: Oct 10, 2014 1:19 PM   in response to: Graeme Geldenhuys in response to: Graeme Geldenhuys
used her PC as a Linux server streaming media to our TV - worked like a

Streaming media is a far lighter task than running Lightroom.... even a mediocre ARM based NAS can do it easily. LR non-destructive way of working taxes the hardware a lot, especially the CPU and memory.

Edited by: Luigi Sandon on Oct 10, 2014 10:19 PM
Luigi Sandon

Posts: 353
Registered: 10/15/99
Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple
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  Posted: Oct 10, 2014 8:53 AM   in response to: Graeme Geldenhuys in response to: Graeme Geldenhuys
Adobe Lightoom was a nightmare on my wife's Windows computer. Constant

I routinely use it (version 5) on my desktop Windows 7 PC (a custom built one, with high-end components) and Windows 8.1 Surface 2 Pro without any issues (but have no wife to test with) - so the problem was your machine or your wife <G>....

Jokes aside, Adobe treats the two platforms the same way. Especially since Apple turned to Intel hardware, there are no differences among Macs and high-end Windows PCs. What you really need to avoid is run software designed for high-end hardware on some low-end Windows PCs, results are usually not good - but I never seen Lightroom crashing - maybe becoming slow, but nothing more. Usually crash could be traced to cheap components and bad drivers.

There are no low-end cheap Apple PCs, thereby you can't hit the same issues.

But UI and file access, most code of applications like Lightroom are mathematical algorithms that really don't care what the underlying OS is. Adobe also uses its own color management engine (unless you switch to the OS one).

Edited by: Luigi Sandon on Oct 10, 2014 5:53 PM
Dominique Willems

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Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple [Edit]
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  Posted: Oct 10, 2014 12:04 PM   in response to: Luigi Sandon in response to: Luigi Sandon
Luigi Sandon wrote:
Especially
since Apple turned to Intel hardware, there are no differences among
Macs and high-end Windows PCs.

Don't Macs come standard with the i5? Is that on the same level as
high-end PCs?
Luigi Sandon

Posts: 353
Registered: 10/15/99
Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple [Edit]
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  Posted: Oct 10, 2014 1:32 PM   in response to: Dominique Willems in response to: Dominique Willems
Don't Macs come standard with the i5? Is that on the same level as
high-end PCs?

Depends what Mac we are talking about. Mac Pro comes with Xeons.

Anyway an "high-end PC" is different from a "PC with a fast processor". An high-end PC is one built with high quality components - motherboard, CPU(s), chipset, NIC(s), GPU, disks, etc -, even not all the i5 CPUs are the same.

You can buy or build a couple of PC with more or less the same "specs" - especially if you just look at a few numbers like CPU model/frequency, RAM and disk size, GPU RAM. NIC speed - but one using high quality (and more expensive) components, another with cheap ones.

If you look for example at Dell catalog, you will find the mainstream OptiPlex/Inspiron PCs and the Precision "workstation" - the latter are built with higher-end components. Gone are the days when there were only one machine line with expensive/powerful machines at one end and the cheap/slow ones at the other.

Now you have multiple product lines with machines designed and built for different type of users and workloads - even if some specs may looks similar.
Jouni Aro

Posts: 86
Registered: 9/4/97
Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple [Edit]
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  Posted: Oct 10, 2014 1:49 PM   in response to: Luigi Sandon in response to: Luigi Sandon
On 10/10/14 23:32, Luigi Sandon wrote:
Don't Macs come standard with the i5? Is that on the same level as
high-end PCs?

Depends what Mac we are talking about. Mac Pro comes with Xeons.

Anyway an "high-end PC" is different from a "PC with a fast processor". An high-end PC is one built with high quality components - motherboard, CPU(s), chipset, NIC(s), GPU, disks, etc -, even not all the i5 CPUs are the same.

You can buy or build a couple of PC with more or less the same "specs" - especially if you just look at a few numbers like CPU model/frequency, RAM and disk size, GPU RAM. NIC speed - but one using high quality (and more expensive) components, another with cheap ones.

If you look for example at Dell catalog, you will find the mainstream OptiPlex/Inspiron PCs and the Precision "workstation" - the latter are built with higher-end components. Gone are the days when there were only one machine line with expensive/powerful machines at one end and the cheap/slow ones at the other.

Now you have multiple product lines with machines designed and built for different type of users and workloads - even if some specs may looks similar.

When I purchased my MacBook Pro 17" (Dec 2011) I did a thorough
comparison. Dell Precision was the only one with similar quality
components and screen size. Only it weighed 3.5 kg vs. 3.0 kg, was 5 cm
wider (45 cm vs 40 cm) - and had less pixels (1920x1080 vs 1920x1200).
The price was pretty much the same - at least it was not any cheaper.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MacBook_Pro

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dell_Precision

I actually happened to see the Precision at a customer: I sure did not
want such a "beast".

My current colleagues use an inexpensive Inspiron. When I tried that
out, I simply could not see the small pixels of the FullHD display in
the small 15.6" or even 14" screen. Well, they all use an extra monitor
at office. Actually, so do I, but only aside the native screen, which is
of superb quality.
Luigi Sandon

Posts: 353
Registered: 10/15/99
Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple [Edit]
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  Posted: Oct 11, 2014 6:51 AM   in response to: Jouni Aro in response to: Jouni Aro
Check the XPS....
Jouni Aro

Posts: 86
Registered: 9/4/97
Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple [Edit]
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  Posted: Oct 11, 2014 7:10 AM   in response to: Luigi Sandon in response to: Luigi Sandon
On 11/10/14 16:51, Luigi Sandon wrote:
Check the XPS....

I believe I did. Now I checked again, and XPS 17" is no longer
available. They suggest Alienware 17". Seems to be designed for playing,
not for product development. It's indeed only 41 cm wide (just 2cm wider
than my MacBook) - but weighs over 4kg: 1kg more than mine! The XPS has
weighed 3,5 kg - the same as Precision.

I could not find the price for either one.

Well, as I said, I really looked all the alternatives (these as well) at
the time - and they did not manage to compete. If you pick the same
components (as much as you can get), it's not any cheaper. Just clumsier.
Jouni Aro

Posts: 86
Registered: 9/4/97
Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple [Edit]
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  Posted: Oct 11, 2014 7:16 AM   in response to: Jouni Aro in response to: Jouni Aro
On 11/10/14 17:10, Jouni Aro wrote:
Well, as I said, I really looked all the alternatives (these as well) at
the time - and they did not manage to compete. If you pick the same
components (as much as you can get), it's not any cheaper. Just clumsier.

I think therein lies the difference: MacBooks are only available with
the best of class components. There are no inexpensive versions
available at all. So if you only want an inexpensive one, you need to
get something else. But if you finally upgrade the components from the
default to get the performance, they are quite equal by their price. At
that point, the quality of the screen, keyboard and especially the
touchpad, combined with the light weight easily win.
Eduardo Elias

Posts: 319
Registered: 9/20/12
Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple [Edit]
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  Posted: Oct 11, 2014 11:05 AM   in response to: Jouni Aro in response to: Jouni Aro
This is the same problem related to Android

There is top line android hardware and hundreds of something else. Things
that is really bad.

Then people try to compare the entire Android line with iPhone. That is impossible.

Same thing with Windows computers.

I am using a Sony notebook that just works. I used a HP dv7 previously that
worked just fine always. I had a Acer that was big problem.

I have a toshiba that I got on 2003 and because it has a nice 17" screen
I keep it around, then I have installed Windows 8 on it, and just works.
No crashes, no freezes, of course not fast, but usable for many things.

Sure Apple stuff is top hardware and that is expensive. The same price you
got nice windows hardware with the same quality and will never be a problem.
If the hardware is not good there is no way to blame the OS.

On 11/10/14 17:10, Jouni Aro wrote:

Well, as I said, I really looked all the alternatives (these as well)
at the time - and they did not manage to compete. If you pick the
same components (as much as you can get), it's not any cheaper. Just
clumsier.
I think therein lies the difference: MacBooks are only available with
the best of class components. There are no inexpensive versions
available at all. So if you only want an inexpensive one, you need to
get something else. But if you finally upgrade the components from the
default to get the performance, they are quite equal by their price.
At that point, the quality of the screen, keyboard and especially the
touchpad, combined with the light weight easily win.
Jouni Aro

Posts: 86
Registered: 9/4/97
Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple [Edit]
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  Posted: Oct 11, 2014 11:49 AM   in response to: Eduardo Elias in response to: Eduardo Elias
On 11/10/14 21:05, Eduardo Elias wrote:
This is the same problem related to Android

There is top line android hardware and hundreds of something else. Things
that is really bad.

Then people try to compare the entire Android line with iPhone. That is impossible.

Android apps run in Dalvik, which is very slow compared to iPhone apps.
But usually they are fast enough, because of the "super computer" level
of processors.

Same thing with Windows computers.

I am using a Sony notebook that just works. I used a HP dv7 previously that
worked just fine always. I had a Acer that was big problem.

I have a toshiba that I got on 2003 and because it has a nice 17" screen
I keep it around, then I have installed Windows 8 on it, and just works.
No crashes, no freezes, of course not fast, but usable for many things.

Sure Apple stuff is top hardware and that is expensive. The same price you
got nice windows hardware with the same quality and will never be a problem.
If the hardware is not good there is no way to blame the OS.

Of course. But as I said, the problem with Windows is typically the
performance degradation. If you keep your application installations to
the minimum, you have less problems with that.

My Vista laptop that eventually became unusable was indeed fast
originally. And XP in old hardware is also fast initially. System
updates of course are a big problem in that sense. If you can live
without, you could use it as long as the hardware lasts. Actually with
XP there was also a bug in the system updates - checking for them in the
start up became slower and slower. This was discovered at end of 2013
and I don't know if they ever released a fix for it!

http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2013/12/exponential-algorithm-making-windows-xp-miserable-could-be-fixed/
Luigi Sandon

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Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple [Edit]
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  Posted: Oct 13, 2014 12:17 AM   in response to: Jouni Aro in response to: Jouni Aro
Of course. But as I said, the problem with Windows is typically the
performance degradation. If you keep your application installations to
the minimum, you have less problems with that.

And maybe that's exactly what happens on OSX? You usually keep your installations to a minimum? And maybe install far less "unknown source" software?
Jouni Aro

Posts: 86
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Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple [Edit]
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  Posted: Oct 13, 2014 1:58 PM   in response to: Luigi Sandon in response to: Luigi Sandon
On 13/10/14 10:17, Luigi Sandon wrote:
Of course. But as I said, the problem with Windows is typically the
performance degradation. If you keep your application installations to
the minimum, you have less problems with that.

And maybe that's exactly what happens on OSX? You usually keep your installations to a minimum? And maybe install far less "unknown source" software?

Well, I have kept the installations to minimum, since my Windows VM has
eaten all my disk space (150GB/240GB, partly due to a snapshot I cannot
delet from the Parallels VM). But now I've added another 500 GB SSD to
my laptop (can you add another disk to a Dell laptop?), so I'll be free
to install more as I need.

I don't expect any issues for the next five years, regarding to system
degradation. As I mentioned, the OS is keeping the file system in order
without me needing to manage it. And there is no Registry...

But yes you are right, I don't install much from "unknown source": most
of the apps are available from "known source" anyway. But, as a matter
of fact, I haven't ever installed much from "unknown source" to Windows
either. I think it was already mentioned that the Windows updates and
Registry (defragmentation?) are the biggest issues. And I have an
assumption that disk fragmentation is less of a problem for a Windows VM
than for a native Windows.
Luigi Sandon

Posts: 353
Registered: 10/15/99
Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple [Edit]
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  Posted: Oct 12, 2014 1:03 PM   in response to: Jouni Aro in response to: Jouni Aro
I believe I did. Now I checked again, and XPS 17" is no longer

Guess it didn't sell much, unlike the 15" models. A 17" laptop is usually to large to carry around comfortably.

AFAIK, Apple dumped the 17" MacBook Pro as well. After all, it's much practical today using a smaller form factor on the road, and use it docked and a couple of 27"-30" monitor at the office. Especially if you need monitor calibration, laptop monitors usually can't be calibrated appropriately.

People needing a 17" laptop usually are those needing a self-propelled one to move from site to site where they put it in on desktop an never move it for a while.

the time - and they did not manage to compete. If you pick the same
components (as much as you can get), it's not any cheaper. Just clumsier.

They are not cheaper - never said that - good components cost. But they are not clusmsier, and let you run much more software than you can run on a Mac without having to use VMs and other ways just to make your life more complex (and spend even more)

For example Precision workstation are often aimed at CAD tasks, and you can't really do professional CAD on a Mac. You need or Windows or Unix (not Linux, Unix....)
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple [Edit]
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  Posted: Oct 13, 2014 5:10 AM   in response to: Luigi Sandon in response to: Luigi Sandon
Luigi Sandon wrote:

I believe I did. Now I checked again, and XPS 17" is no longer

Guess it didn't sell much, unlike the 15" models. A 17" laptop is
usually to large to carry around comfortably.

But this 18" is ideal for my office in my clinic. I only, er, "move" it
when I'm on vacation and don't carry it around there either.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"The citizen who sees his societyís democratic clothes being
worn out and does not cry it out, is not a patriot, but a
traitor."
-- Mark Twain
Jouni Aro

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Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple [Edit]
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  Posted: Oct 13, 2014 2:05 PM   in response to: Luigi Sandon in response to: Luigi Sandon
On 12/10/14 23:03, Luigi Sandon wrote:
I believe I did. Now I checked again, and XPS 17" is no longer

Guess it didn't sell much, unlike the 15" models. A 17" laptop is usually to large to carry around comfortably.

Well, it seems that none of the XPS models are available from the
Finnish retailer any more. Are they available anywhere?

AFAIK, Apple dumped the 17" MacBook Pro as well. After all, it's much practical today using a smaller form factor on the road, and use it docked and a couple of 27"-30" monitor at the office. Especially if you need monitor calibration, laptop monitors usually can't be calibrated appropriately.

I suppose so: just better to sum up the price of the extra monitor to
your laptop price then.

People needing a 17" laptop usually are those needing a self-propelled one to move from site to site where they put it in on desktop an never move it for a while.

I am the self-propelled one. I take it with me home every day - I prefer
to have everything with me always. And I prefer that I can use the best
quality monitor with me wherever I go. I also use the monitor at my
desktop: the extra monitor is just on the side to add another one, but
this one is still the primary one. I find it stupid to get yourself a
laptop with a monitor that you cannot use.

the time - and they did not manage to compete. If you pick the same
components (as much as you can get), it's not any cheaper. Just clumsier.

They are not cheaper - never said that - good components cost. But they are not clusmsier, and let you run much more software than you can run on a Mac without having to use VMs and other ways just to make your life more complex (and spend even more)

A bigger and heavier is clumsier to me. I haven't found what I could not
run.

For example Precision workstation are often aimed at CAD tasks, and you can't really do professional CAD on a Mac. You need or Windows or Unix (not Linux, Unix....)

You can run Windows on Mac hardware, if you insist...
Luigi Sandon

Posts: 353
Registered: 10/15/99
Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple [Edit]
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  Posted: Oct 13, 2014 2:40 PM   in response to: Jouni Aro in response to: Jouni Aro
Well, it seems that none of the XPS models are available from the
Finnish retailer any more. Are they available anywhere?

Here are available.

I am the self-propelled one. I take it with me home every day - I prefer

I prefer to remote into the office PC if needed. And I prefer to leave everything at the office for security reasons. That's also the reason why my personal PCs and my work PCs are wholly physically separate machines. But I have strong security needs also.

Anyway, while flying and travelling around a 17" laptop is really too large, IMHO. When I don't need development tools with me, I often don't carry my 15" laptop, but a smaller netbook until I got a 10" Surface 2 Pro (although unlike the netbook it could really run Visual Studio and Delphi is I need them... and even Linux VM).

quality monitor with me wherever I go. I also use the monitor at my

Best quality <> large monitor. Depends on what you really need to do on the road. I understand for someone a large monitor is better, but it looks not enough to keep alive those models.

laptop with a monitor that you cannot use.

Depends on your use. For example, a photographer or graphic artist may use the laptop monitor outside the office for some quick tasks, but will use a large, wide gamut calibrated monitor whenever he or she can. Anyway no 17" can compete with a larger, high resolution monitor as the primary one.

You can run Windows on Mac hardware, if you insist...

Still virtualizing it with all the limitations of it. For some CAD applications, there are even some dedicated graphic cards drivers - which you may not be able to use if you get virtualization in the middle. Why spend more time and money to get some expensive software run in an unsupported configuration?

And anyway, Macs are not designed for those tasks - it's not one of the Apple markets. It knows where it is strong, and where it is not. Look at how it also dumped its small servers, there were no advantage in buying one but if you were maybe a small office running all Macs and wanting a simple setup. Otherwise a Linux or *BSD server does the same, cheaper and better - or even a Windows one if you want AD features.
Jouni Aro

Posts: 86
Registered: 9/4/97
Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple [Edit]
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  Posted: Oct 13, 2014 2:50 PM   in response to: Luigi Sandon in response to: Luigi Sandon
On 14/10/14 00:40, Luigi Sandon wrote:
Well, it seems that none of the XPS models are available from the
Finnish retailer any more. Are they available anywhere?

Here are available.

I am the self-propelled one. I take it with me home every day - I prefer

I prefer to remote into the office PC if needed. And I prefer to leave everything at the office for security reasons. That's also the reason why my personal PCs and my work PCs are wholly physically separate machines. But I have strong security needs also.

Anyway, while flying and travelling around a 17" laptop is really too large, IMHO. When I don't need development tools with me, I often don't carry my 15" laptop, but a smaller netbook until I got a 10" Surface 2 Pro (although unlike the netbook it could really run Visual Studio and Delphi is I need them... and even Linux VM).

Yeah, I maybe sometimes would prefer a smaller one to carry, but when I
am there with my full WS, I am happy that I could carry it. After all,
3kg for a full workstation is not much IMO.

But I do understand there was not enough demand. Therefore I am happy I
got mine in time - and I look forward to using this one the next five to
ten years.

Maybe I'll install a Linux VM on the side next...

quality monitor with me wherever I go. I also use the monitor at my

Best quality <> large monitor. Depends on what you really need to do on the road. I understand for someone a large monitor is better, but it looks not enough to keep alive those models.

Yes, I was referring to the quality of the MacBook monitor: it is
extremely good.

laptop with a monitor that you cannot use.

Depends on your use. For example, a photographer or graphic artist may use the laptop monitor outside the office for some quick tasks, but will use a large, wide gamut calibrated monitor whenever he or she can. Anyway no 17" can compete with a larger, high resolution monitor as the primary one.

1920x1200 is enough for me at the moment :) My second monitor has the
exact same resolution (24"?) and they are perfect for me.

You can run Windows on Mac hardware, if you insist...

Still virtualizing it with all the limitations of it. For some CAD applications, there are even some dedicated graphic cards drivers - which you may not be able to use if you get virtualization in the middle. Why spend more time and money to get some expensive software run in an unsupported configuration?

You can install Windows natively without OSX if you wish. Or Linux. It's
just a PC...

And anyway, Macs are not designed for those tasks - it's not one of the Apple markets. It knows where it is strong, and where it is not. Look at how it also dumped its small servers, there were no advantage in buying one but if you were maybe a small office running all Macs and wanting a simple setup. Otherwise a Linux or *BSD server does the same, cheaper and better - or even a Windows one if you want AD features.

I don't know the Mac servers at all. I also find Linux best for servers.
And OSX for desktop.
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple [Edit]
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  Posted: Oct 13, 2014 5:08 AM   in response to: Dominique Willems in response to: Dominique Willems
Dominique Willems wrote:

Luigi Sandon wrote:
Especially
since Apple turned to Intel hardware, there are no differences among
Macs and high-end Windows PCs.

Don't Macs come standard with the i5? Is that on the same level as
high-end PCs?

No. You can have i3, i5 or i7 CPUs.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Life is pleasant. Death is peaceful. It's the transition that's
troublesome." -- Isaac Asimov
Dominique Willems

Posts: 591
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Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple [Edit]
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  Posted: Oct 13, 2014 6:57 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:
Don't Macs come standard with the i5? Is that on the same level as
high-end PCs?

No. You can have i3, i5 or i7 CPUs.

Yes, Macs are low-end. I know.
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple [Edit]
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  Posted: Oct 13, 2014 7:18 AM   in response to: Dominique Willems in response to: Dominique Willems
Dominique Willems wrote:

Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:
Don't Macs come standard with the i5? Is that on the same level as
high-end PCs?

No. You can have i3, i5 or i7 CPUs.

Yes, Macs are low-end. I know.

Mac Minis are, indeed.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"If we do not like the world the way it is, then it is because
we are not okay the way we are."
-- deeshan
Luigi Sandon

Posts: 353
Registered: 10/15/99
Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple
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  Posted: Oct 10, 2014 7:57 AM   in response to: Dominique Willems in response to: Dominique Willems
I won't deny graphics artists decide more emotionally than logically,
and Apple plays into that, but to hear a developer claim this nonsense
is bewildering.

It's not emotionally only, it's the whole workflow in most of the imaging industry has been historically Apple-based and thereby it's far easier to adapt to it, you won't find compatibility issues or the like.

But for example if you look at the CAD industry it is strongly Windows and Unix (Unix, not Linux...) based. Or try to find good database management solutions for Apple - if you can find database client library for Apple too...
Dominique Willems

Posts: 591
Registered: 10/26/99
Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple
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  Posted: Oct 10, 2014 8:17 AM   in response to: Luigi Sandon in response to: Luigi Sandon
Luigi Sandon wrote:
It's not emotionally only, it's the whole workflow in most of the
imaging industry has been historically Apple-based and thereby it's
far easier to adapt to it, you won't find compatibility issues or the
like.

I fully agree that the imaging industry has been Apple-based, but not
out of logical reasons. These "compatibility" issues, let's be honest,
were less something that could be easily overcome than readily
propagated out of, I insist, emotional reasons. I remember very well
that professional printers were unable to read PageMaker files created
on a PC, and had to get a PC just to be able to read them. This was a
compatibility issue caused by the printer deciding to install Apple
machines, not because PCs were "incompatible" with the industry. Just
with the machines they illogically decided on.

It must have been those 80s fairs, where the Mac was introduced. There
was this Apple booth with a cute little device, boasting a tiny
black&white screen, allowing people to draw circles with a mouse. I saw
people fainting with awe. In the mean time, I was using an Olivetti M24
with a far higher resolution, sixteen colors, and a screen you didn't
have to nail down when there was a breeze. A mouse with two buttons,
imagine. People were sheep then, and are sheep now. (and my circles
were part of a construction rotating real-time in 3D-space, mind you)

But for example if you look at the CAD industry it is strongly
Windows and Unix (Unix, not Linux...) based. Or try to find good
database management solutions for Apple - if you can find database
client library for Apple too...

Yes, and that proves that Windows machines excel at all graphic
applications and there is absolutely no logical reason, despite the
huge advantage of decades of hardware and software lock-in, to go with
Apple.
Luigi Sandon

Posts: 353
Registered: 10/15/99
Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple
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  Posted: Oct 10, 2014 9:10 AM   in response to: Dominique Willems in response to: Dominique Willems
I fully agree that the imaging industry has been Apple-based, but not
out of logical reasons. These "compatibility" issues, let's be honest,

Some logical reason there were. Apple cared about imaging needs in the past better than Windows, probably because it understood it was a strong selling point. And it was what kept it afloat in the bad years, otherwise it would have probably gone bankrupt before developing the iPod and iPhone....

From font management to color managment and other building blocks that made users life easier - and developers as well, targeting those machines. It's not good hardware availability only, you also need good OS support. For example Windows 7 is the first MS OS that can load LUT data from a color profile - but it's disabled by default. You need external loaders, but they can give sometimes issues. The lack of OS support for some features in ther early Windows years made developing some kind of applications more complex, and gave Macs and advantage.

Yes, mostly today is a "tradition" to use Apple, and you could use a Windows PC as well, but when you learn on Apple, find your peers using Apple, and services using Apple, it becomes natural to use Apple as well, and it's not you're using something worse. It happens in other fields as well, where some brands becomes a de-facto standard and most people use them just because everybody use it already.

After all WIndows became the de-facto standard platform for high-end gaming systems, thanks to its huge support for different hardware devices and the possibility of building your own dedicated gaming rig.
Dominique Willems

Posts: 591
Registered: 10/26/99
Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple
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  Posted: Oct 10, 2014 12:01 PM   in response to: Luigi Sandon in response to: Luigi Sandon
Sums it up pretty well.
Steve Thackery

Posts: 151
Registered: 4/29/06
Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple
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  Posted: Oct 11, 2014 2:52 AM   in response to: Dominique Willems in response to: Dominique Willems
Dominique Willems wrote:

I fully agree that the imaging industry has been Apple-based, but not
out of logical reasons. These "compatibility" issues, let's be honest,
were less something that could be easily overcome than readily
propagated out of, I insist, emotional reasons.

Massively agree. The applications offer perfect compatibility of files
across the platforms, and now also in terms of features, user
interface, etc.

If you look at any Adobe product, it's hard to tell which platform it's
running on.

--
SteveT
Steve Thackery

Posts: 151
Registered: 4/29/06
Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple
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  Posted: Oct 11, 2014 2:53 AM   in response to: Dominique Willems in response to: Dominique Willems
Dominique Willems wrote:

Yes, and that proves that Windows machines excel at all graphic
applications and there is absolutely no logical reason, despite the
huge advantage of decades of hardware and software lock-in, to go with
Apple.

+1000. No logical reason at all. But arty types are never logical and
love their prejudices. They are also, usually, uncomfortable with
technology and therefore resist a technology change.

--
SteveT
Kyle Miller

Posts: 115
Registered: 10/4/99
Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple
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  Posted: Oct 8, 2014 8:42 AM   in response to: Phillip Woon in response to: Phillip Woon
On 10/08/2014 09:23 AM, Phillip Woon wrote:
Video processing, graphic arts programs on the Mac are preferred by artists and movie types.

That is the perception, but I don't believe reality follows perception. I will remember
that when and if I start writing programs for artists and movie types or if I become a
great artist or Hollywood producer.
Mike Margerum

Posts: 590
Registered: 12/1/99
Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple
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  Posted: Oct 8, 2014 6:35 AM   in response to: Phillip Woon in response to: Phillip Woon
Last I looked, Mac OS X had pretty much most of the same or equivalent or better programs than windows. The only thing that I would miss is running Delphi, but then I can use VMware. But you're right, Delphi is slow in a VM. Otherwise, Mac OS has Office, Adobe products, games, etc.... And it's a better OS than Windows.

Total commander is the only app I really miss from windows.
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple
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  Posted: Oct 9, 2014 5:28 AM   in response to: Mike Margerum in response to: Mike Margerum
Mike Margerum wrote:

Last I looked, Mac OS X had pretty much most of the same or
equivalent or better programs than windows. The only thing that I
would miss is running Delphi, but then I can use VMware. But
you're right, Delphi is slow in a VM. Otherwise, Mac OS has
Office, Adobe products, games, etc.... And it's a better OS than
Windows.

Total commander is the only app I really miss from windows.

Never used that, so I don't even miss that. <g>

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Sometimes, the best answer is a more interesting question"
-- Terry Pratchett
Steve Thackery

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Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple
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  Posted: Oct 9, 2014 5:42 AM   in response to: Mike Margerum in response to: Mike Margerum
Mike Margerum wrote:

Total commander is the only app I really miss from windows.

Do this:

1/ Press AND HOLD the Windows key
2/ Key the following sequence: e (cursor left key) e (cursor right
key)
3/ Release the Windows key

You get two File Explorer windows open side by side, filling the
screen, ready for all your dragging/dropping, and such. Very handy.
Total Commander just looks so OLD these days - XP-style ornamentation -
ugh!

--
SteveT
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple
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  Posted: Oct 9, 2014 5:50 AM   in response to: Steve Thackery in response to: Steve Thackery
Steve Thackery wrote:

Mike Margerum wrote:

Total commander is the only app I really miss from windows.

Do this:

1/ Press AND HOLD the Windows key
2/ Key the following sequence: e (cursor left key) e (cursor right
key)
3/ Release the Windows key

Cool!

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Clothes make the man. Naked people have little or no influence
on society." -- Mark Twain
Mike Margerum

Posts: 590
Registered: 12/1/99
Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple
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  Posted: Oct 9, 2014 6:38 AM   in response to: Steve Thackery in response to: Steve Thackery
You get two File Explorer windows open side by side, filling the
screen, ready for all your dragging/dropping, and such. Very handy.
Total Commander just looks so OLD these days - XP-style ornamentation -
ugh!

Thanks Steve but I cant even remember the last time i used windows explorer.

total commander does so very much more than a two panel explorer does.

finder is pretty limited too. Its a bit better with moom, but i miss
total commander every day
Mike Margerum

Posts: 590
Registered: 12/1/99
Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple
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  Posted: Oct 8, 2014 6:36 AM   in response to: Phillip Woon in response to: Phillip Woon
The only thing that I would miss is running Delphi, but then I can use VMware. But you're right, Delphi is slow in a VM.

I don't have any issues at all with Delphi XE6 being slow in my
Parallels VM. But, ive got 16 gb of ram and an i7 in this laptop
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple
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  Posted: Oct 9, 2014 5:29 AM   in response to: Mike Margerum in response to: Mike Margerum
Mike Margerum wrote:

The only thing that I would miss is running Delphi, but then I can
use VMware. But you're right, Delphi is slow in a VM.

I don't have any issues at all with Delphi XE6 being slow in my
Parallels VM. But, ive got 16 gb of ram and an i7 in this laptop

I only have 12GB and an i5 on my iMac, but programs were never
perceptibly slow. The VM gets 4 GB.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"I am ready to meet my Maker. Whether my Maker is prepared for
the great ordeal of meeting me is another matter."
-- Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)
Luigi Sandon

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Registered: 10/15/99
Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple
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  Posted: Oct 8, 2014 7:14 AM   in response to: Phillip Woon in response to: Phillip Woon
Last I looked, Mac OS X had pretty much most of the same or equivalent or better programs than windows.

Depends. There's a lot of software - especially professional software - which is not available for OSX but is available for Windows, especially outside the imaging industry. Even with some games you may have issues to find a replacement. for Windows applications - nor you can build a dedicated game rig with the hardware you want.

Also, being tied to a single OS supplier is already bad. Being tied to a single OS and hardware supplier is even worse... and Macs are not designed for any workload.

BTW: why do you develop for Windows if OSX is so much better?
Phillip Woon

Posts: 189
Registered: 9/30/99
Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple
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  Posted: Oct 8, 2014 7:30 AM   in response to: Luigi Sandon in response to: Luigi Sandon
Luigi Sandon wrote:
Last I looked, Mac OS X had pretty much most of the same or equivalent or better programs than windows.

Depends. There's a lot of software - especially professional software - which is not available for OSX but is available for Windows, especially outside the imaging industry. Even with some games you may have issues to find a replacement. for Windows applications - nor you can build a dedicated game rig with the hardware you want.

Also, being tied to a single OS supplier is already bad. Being tied to a single OS and hardware supplier is even worse... and Macs are not designed for any workload.

BTW: why do you develop for Windows if OSX is so much better?

I've only started using a Mac since 2009, while I've been using Windows and developing for it for about 25 years, Delphi being the premier tool. All of the jobs I've worked at, were Windows shops. But I use Macs at home (and Windows to develop with Delphi). At work, I do have a Mac also, because we do use Delphi for iOS development.

There are certain things that the Mac does better. Like printing to a PDF (Built in). Mac OS comes with iPhoto, iMovie, Pages, Numbers, Keynote, disk utility for DVD/CD burning, etc. I do have Office for Mac for compatibility with Windows. I use Spaces (multiple desktops) all the time. Windows 10 is finally getting that feature. I think before Windows 7, device config and discovery worked a lot better on the Mac. Now it's just as good with Windows.

I may be wrong, but I think Google engineers use Macs mostly. A lot of the Adobe products started off on the Mac, and maybe on Windows, they're pretty much equal now.

Edited by: Phillip Woon on Oct 8, 2014 7:31 AM
Brandon Staggs

Posts: 683
Registered: 3/3/01
Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple [Edit]
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  Posted: Oct 8, 2014 4:12 PM   in response to: Phillip Woon in response to: Phillip Woon
"Phillip Woon" wrote on Wed, 8 Oct 2014 07:32:30 -0700:

A lot of the Adobe products started off on the Mac, and maybe on Windows, they're pretty much equal now.

Sounds like revisionist history. Unless you are talking about
versions prior to OSX...

--
Brandon Staggs
StudyLamp Software LLC
http://www.studylamp.com
Phillip Woon

Posts: 189
Registered: 9/30/99
Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple [Edit]
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  Posted: Oct 9, 2014 10:00 AM   in response to: Brandon Staggs in response to: Brandon Staggs
Brandon Staggs wrote:
"Phillip Woon" wrote on Wed, 8 Oct 2014 07:32:30 -0700:

A lot of the Adobe products started off on the Mac, and maybe on Windows, they're pretty much equal now.

Sounds like revisionist history. Unless you are talking about
versions prior to OSX...

--
Brandon Staggs
StudyLamp Software LLC
http://www.studylamp.com

Photoshop, Premier started on the Mac . http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adobe_Systems. Even Macromedia had origins on the Mac.
Brandon Staggs

Posts: 683
Registered: 3/3/01
Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple [Edit]
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  Posted: Oct 10, 2014 4:38 AM   in response to: Phillip Woon in response to: Phillip Woon
"Phillip Woon" wrote on Thu, 9 Oct 2014 10:00:00 -0700:

Photoshop, Premier started on the Mac . http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adobe_Systems. Even Macromedia had origins on the Mac.

And WordPerfect had its origins in the command line. What does that
have to do with the present? Photoshop is Photoshop on Mac or
Windows.

Let go of the revisionist history.

http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/The-Real-Reason-Steve-Jobs-Wants-To-Kill-Adobe-2481548.php

<<<"Yet in 1996, as Apple looked doomed, Adobe decided to focus on the
Windows platform. Even as Apple became resurgent again and OS X was
introduced as a very compelling platform, Adobe snubbed it.">>>

--
Brandon Staggs
StudyLamp Software LLC
http://www.studylamp.com
Phillip Woon

Posts: 189
Registered: 9/30/99
Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple [Edit]
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  Posted: Oct 10, 2014 5:16 AM   in response to: Brandon Staggs in response to: Brandon Staggs
Brandon Staggs wrote:
"Phillip Woon" wrote on Thu, 9 Oct 2014 10:00:00 -0700:

Photoshop, Premier started on the Mac . http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adobe_Systems. Even Macromedia had origins on the Mac.

And WordPerfect had its origins in the command line. What does that
have to do with the present? Photoshop is Photoshop on Mac or
Windows.

Let go of the revisionist history.

http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/The-Real-Reason-Steve-Jobs-Wants-To-Kill-Adobe-2481548.php

<<<"Yet in 1996, as Apple looked doomed, Adobe decided to focus on the
Windows platform. Even as Apple became resurgent again and OS X was
introduced as a very compelling platform, Adobe snubbed it.">>>

--
Brandon Staggs
StudyLamp Software LLC
http://www.studylamp.com

Revisionist, according to you. Get off your soapbox.
Steve Thackery

Posts: 151
Registered: 4/29/06
Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple [Edit]
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  Posted: Oct 11, 2014 2:55 AM   in response to: Phillip Woon in response to: Phillip Woon
Phillip Woon wrote:

Get off your soapbox.

Ooooh! Pots and kettles come immediately to mind.

--
SteveT
Luigi Sandon

Posts: 353
Registered: 10/15/99
Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple
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  Posted: Oct 10, 2014 8:20 AM   in response to: Phillip Woon in response to: Phillip Woon
There are certain things that the Mac does better. Like printing to a PDF (Built in).

Installing Adobe Reader is so difficult? And this are just artificial limitations due to licensing issue or the like. The Adobe-Apple relationship was always strong. Of course Windows supports much better MS document formats...

Mac OS comes with iPhoto, iMovie, Pages, Numbers, Keynote, disk utility for DVD/CD burning, etc.

Mostly useless to me, but that's what you find in Windows Live Essentials if you need such limited applications. Meanwhile, Apple killed Aperture...

Windows 10 is finally getting that feature.

I agree. The funy things is desktop APIs has been there since at least Windows 2000. Never used but to create the log-on desktop and the screen saver one... never understood why.

Anyway Apple needed to get *BSD code to build a modern OS, because its OS 9 technology was hopelessy outdated - do you know it was a cooperative multithreading OS like Win 3.x? At least Windows became a true multithreading system since 95 and NT 3.x.... yet, until 2002, it was all Mac user got...

Or we can talk about Apple adopting MS SMB as its default network file system?

I think before Windows 7, device config and discovery worked a lot better on the Mac. Now it's just as good with Windows.

I never had issues since XP. There are a lot of crappy built devices with bad drivers for Windows, though, far less supporting Macs, and from the OS perspective it's far better - less crap to cope with.

I may be wrong, but I think Google engineers use Macs mostly.

Sure. The last thing Google wants is using MS stuff - and not for technical reasons. Wonder why they don't use Linux and Chrome OS though.... they just want to sell them to you.

A lot of the Adobe products started off on the Mac, and maybe on Windows, they're pretty much equal now.

Not surprisingly, given in the past Mac had usually better graphic capabilities than DOS and Windows 3.x PCs. Now Windows supports many high-end graphic cards you can't find in the Apple-built machines.

Adobe software is equal today - Adobe knows it sells a lot of software to Windows users too, probably there are more copies of Lightroom running on Windows than on Macs.
Dominique Willems

Posts: 591
Registered: 10/26/99
Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple [Edit]
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  Posted: Oct 10, 2014 8:28 AM   in response to: Luigi Sandon in response to: Luigi Sandon
Luigi Sandon wrote:
Not surprisingly, given in the past Mac had usually better graphic
capabilities than DOS and Windows 3.x PCs.

Nope. They never had. And I followed that scene pretty closely in the
eighties.
Phillip Woon

Posts: 189
Registered: 9/30/99
Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple
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  Posted: Oct 8, 2014 7:37 AM   in response to: Luigi Sandon in response to: Luigi Sandon
Luigi Sandon wrote:
Last I looked, Mac OS X had pretty much most of the same or equivalent or better programs than windows.

Depends. There's a lot of software - especially professional software - which is not available for OSX but is available for Windows, especially outside the imaging industry. Even with some games you may have issues to find a replacement. for Windows applications - nor you can build a dedicated game rig with the hardware you want.

Also, being tied to a single OS supplier is already bad. Being tied to a single OS and hardware supplier is even worse... and Macs are not designed for any workload.

BTW: why do you develop for Windows if OSX is so much better?

I think Windows 8 approaches Mac OS, and now MS with Windows 10 may finally have an OS that has all the features that I find in Yosemite.
Guest
Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple
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  Posted: Oct 8, 2014 8:07 AM   in response to: Phillip Woon in response to: Phillip Woon
Phillip Woon wrote:
Luigi Sandon wrote:
Right, but the Windows tablets are running. well... Windows.

Oh yes, it's so bad to be able to run all those Windows applications on a tablet...

Last I looked, Mac OS X had pretty much most of the same or equivalent or better programs than windows. The only thing that I would miss is running Delphi, but then I can use VMware. But you're right, Delphi is slow in a VM. Otherwise, Mac OS has Office, Adobe products, games, etc.... And it's a better OS than Windows.

"Last I looked..." WTF? Nothing like powerful advice from long-time Mac users like you to let people know what's what about this stuff. NOT!!!

My primary platform for YEARS now has been Mac OS X. I used to run Parallels, but I got tired of having to pay for an update every time OS X was upgraded, so I switched to VMWare Fusion. Not to mention that Parallels support sucks. (And they're based in India.)

I do ALL of my WINDOWS development with DELPHI on my Mac.

And I hate to burst your bubble, but it runs ahellofalot faster on my Mac! (It takes about 5 seconds to launch Delphi XE5 with bunches of libs inside the VM.)

I had a job where they provided me with a Lenovo laptop running an i5, 3 gigs of RAM, and a 500GB HDD. It had so much security crapware running on it that it was basically equivalent in performance to my 8-year old Dell Inspiron 9300 with a Centrino chip on it.

You don't need to run any of the security crapware on Macs to protect your Windows VMs. If the VM gets infected or craps out, you just reload one from backup and keep going. As opposed to sending in your laptop to IT and waiting a few days while they run diagnostics, wipe the HD, reload everything, then you spend a day reloading all of your apps and tools and everything else.

I prefer Macs for one simple reason: I spend virtually no time screwing around with system admin crap the way I have to do with Windows. Macs just work. Period.

You can come up with whatever silly stories about how graphic artists like them, how writers like them, how all sorts of non-techies like them. Why do you suppose that is?

BECAUSE THEY JUST WORK!!!

And in the rare occasion when they don't, you can pick it up and head over to the Apple Store and they'll get you fixed up right away. Or call their support line.

Just try getting help from anybody around Windows issues. Microsoft? Cough up $175/incident. HP? Dell? You'll spend a lot of time talking to people in India who, while they do seem to speak English, are mostly unintelligible. And they won't talk about anything on your machine other than the stuff that comes out-of-the-box. They're typical advice in most cases: wipe your drive and reload the OS.

You guys are entitled to your opinions, but it would be a heck of a lot more meaningful if they came from a boatload of actual hands-on experience rather than random comments you've gotten from a handful of people over the years.

I am far more productive using OS X to do Windows development (and just about everything else) than I am on Windows. Period.

For me, that's the bottom-line.

My employer can pay me to sit at a Windows machine and waste my time. But given the choice, I'll go with OS X.

And that's based on 6+ years of working with BOTH OS X and Windows together and on separate machines.

-David
Phillip Woon

Posts: 189
Registered: 9/30/99
Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple
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  Posted: Oct 8, 2014 8:23 AM   in response to: Guest in response to: Guest
David Schwartz wrote:
Phillip Woon wrote:
Luigi Sandon wrote:
Right, but the Windows tablets are running. well... Windows.

Oh yes, it's so bad to be able to run all those Windows applications on a tablet...

Last I looked, Mac OS X had pretty much most of the same or equivalent or better programs than windows. The only thing that I would miss is running Delphi, but then I can use VMware. But you're right, Delphi is slow in a VM. Otherwise, Mac OS has Office, Adobe products, games, etc.... And it's a better OS than Windows.

"Last I looked..." WTF? Nothing like powerful advice from long-time Mac users like you to let people know what's what about this stuff. NOT!!!

Huh? Clarify what you mean.

My primary platform for YEARS now has been Mac OS X. I used to run Parallels, but I got tired of having to pay for an update every time OS X was upgraded, so I switched to VMWare Fusion. Not to mention that Parallels support sucks. (And they're based in India.)

I just had to upgrade VMware Fusion for Yosemite. Previous Fusion won't work with Yosemite (It x'd out the Icon for the app and won't launch). VMWare Fusion 7 also works better on Yosemite than Vmware 6 did on Mavericks. However, you didn't have to upgrade Vmware from Mountain Lion to Mavericks .

I do ALL of my WINDOWS development with DELPHI on my Mac.

And I hate to burst your bubble, but it runs ahellofalot faster on my Mac! (It takes about 5 seconds to launch Delphi XE5 with bunches of libs inside the VM.)

I only have a 2009 iMac with 8GB memory so I need to upgrade my Mac (probably next year). Currently, I also have a Windows machine with 16 gb memory and a quad core processor, so it IS faster running Delphi than a VM on my Mac. Perhaps when I upgrade the Mac that will be a different story.

You guys are entitled to your opinions, but it would be a heck of a lot more meaningful if they came from a boatload of actual hands-on experience rather than random comments you've gotten from a handful of people over the years.

I've been using Mac OS X as my primary machine at home for the past 5 years.
Markus Humm

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Registered: 11/9/03
Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple [Edit]
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  Posted: Oct 8, 2014 10:46 AM   in response to: Guest in response to: Guest
Am 08.10.2014 17:12, schrieb David Schwartz:
Phillip Woon wrote:
Luigi Sandon wrote:
Right, but the Windows tablets are running. well... Windows.

Oh yes, it's so bad to be able to run all those Windows applications on a tablet...

Last I looked, Mac OS X had pretty much most of the same or equivalent or better programs than windows. The only thing that I would miss is running Delphi, but then I can use VMware. But you're right, Delphi is slow in a VM. Otherwise, Mac OS has Office, Adobe products, games, etc.... And it's a better OS than Windows.

"Last I looked..." WTF? Nothing like powerful advice from long-time Mac users like you to let people know what's what about this stuff. NOT!!!

My primary platform for YEARS now has been Mac OS X. I used to run Parallels, but I got tired of having to pay for an update every time OS X was upgraded, so I switched to VMWare Fusion. Not to mention that Parallels support sucks. (And they're based in India.)

I do ALL of my WINDOWS development with DELPHI on my Mac.

And I hate to burst your bubble, but it runs ahellofalot faster on my Mac! (It takes about 5 seconds to launch Delphi XE5 with bunches of libs inside the VM.)

I had a job where they provided me with a Lenovo laptop running an i5, 3 gigs of RAM, and a 500GB HDD. It had so much security crapware running on it that it was basically equivalent in performance to my 8-year old Dell Inspiron 9300 with a Centrino chip on it.

You don't need to run any of the security crapware on Macs to protect your Windows VMs.

Hello,

as long as your Windows VM has internet access it needs toi be secured
as well and just recently some malware for Mac OS X was being found
either and if I read correctly the bash bug found just some days ago is
still not fixed in Mac OS X.

Thing is: Macs are currently only more secure because they're less of a
target due to their comparatively low market penetration.

And most of their new designs with soldered RAM etc aren't really eco
friendly either. For some of those devices it simply woulnd't be an
issue if they were 5mm thicker (yes, I'm not talking about laptops).

Greetings

Markus
Jouni Aro

Posts: 86
Registered: 9/4/97
Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple [Edit]
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  Posted: Oct 9, 2014 1:38 PM   in response to: Markus Humm in response to: Markus Humm
On 08/10/14 20:46, Markus Humm wrote:
Am 08.10.2014 17:12, schrieb David Schwartz:
Phillip Woon wrote:
Luigi Sandon wrote:
Right, but the Windows tablets are running. well... Windows.

Oh yes, it's so bad to be able to run all those Windows applications on a tablet...

Last I looked, Mac OS X had pretty much most of the same or equivalent or better programs than windows. The only thing that I would miss is running Delphi, but then I can use VMware. But you're right, Delphi is slow in a VM. Otherwise, Mac OS has Office, Adobe products, games, etc.... And it's a better OS than Windows.

"Last I looked..." WTF? Nothing like powerful advice from long-time Mac users like you to let people know what's what about this stuff. NOT!!!

My primary platform for YEARS now has been Mac OS X. I used to run Parallels, but I got tired of having to pay for an update every time OS X was upgraded, so I switched to VMWare Fusion. Not to mention that Parallels support sucks. (And they're based in India.)

I do ALL of my WINDOWS development with DELPHI on my Mac.

And I hate to burst your bubble, but it runs ahellofalot faster on my Mac! (It takes about 5 seconds to launch Delphi XE5 with bunches of libs inside the VM.)

I had a job where they provided me with a Lenovo laptop running an i5, 3 gigs of RAM, and a 500GB HDD. It had so much security crapware running on it that it was basically equivalent in performance to my 8-year old Dell Inspiron 9300 with a Centrino chip on it.

You don't need to run any of the security crapware on Macs to protect your Windows VMs.

Hello,

as long as your Windows VM has internet access it needs toi be secured
as well and just recently some malware for Mac OS X was being found
either and if I read correctly the bash bug found just some days ago is
still not fixed in Mac OS X.

http://www.csoonline.com/article/2689216/vulnerabilities/apple-publishes-patch-for-shellshock-vulnerability.html

"Sep 29, 2014 7:11 PM PT

On Monday, Apple released three patches to address vulnerabilities in
GNU Bash, commonly known as Shellshock, that if exploited could allow an
attacker to execute commands on the targeted host."

Thing is: Macs are currently only more secure because they're less of a
target due to their comparatively low market penetration.

That's what some people have said for at least ten years and I've always
tried to explain that no: if the system is designed secure, such as any
*nix is, they can never become as vulnerable.

*nix threats are typically caused by services, not by browsers
installing malware while you are browsing. Windows is much more secure
nowadays than it was 10 years ago, when it was just a can of worms.

I don't run any AV stuff in the Mac or Windows side. I simply see no
reason for it. Well, in fact, I have never used any in the older Windows
boxes either... Just avoid IE and Outlook and you are safe enough in
practice.

And most of their new designs with soldered RAM etc aren't really eco
friendly either. For some of those devices it simply woulnd't be an
issue if they were 5mm thicker (yes, I'm not talking about laptops).

I am happy I got my 17" MacBook in time. First, they don't manufacture
17" laptops any more. Second, I can replace parts of my machine: just
replaced the optical drive with a 500 GB SSD. I finally had to since the
Windows VM is consuming 150 GB, so the 240 GB disk was getting pretty
full...

MacBook is not perfect, but it's really the first computer that I have
liked to use (maybe after the first Linux boxes I used in the 90's).

When I had to get a new one to replace my old Vista box (which was at
complete halt due to the system degradation) I sweared I will no longer
get any Windows box. The alternatives were to go for a Linux or get a
MacBook. But I just could not find any other hardware that would come
close to the MacBook. And I am extremely happy that I made the switch.

Note that Linus has also been using a MacBook for several years - just
running Linux on it.
Steve Thackery

Posts: 151
Registered: 4/29/06
Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple [Edit]
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  Posted: Oct 9, 2014 4:22 PM   in response to: Jouni Aro in response to: Jouni Aro
Jouni Aro wrote:

I don't run any AV stuff in the Mac or Windows side. I simply see no
reason for it. Well, in fact, I have never used any in the older
Windows boxes either... Just avoid IE and Outlook and you are safe
enough in practice.

Absolutely agree. I ran Vista and W7 without any anti-malware and
NEVER had an infection (as confirmed by six-monthly on-line scans from
Kaspersky).

--
SteveT
Mike Margerum

Posts: 590
Registered: 12/1/99
Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple [Edit]
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  Posted: Oct 9, 2014 4:32 AM   in response to: Guest in response to: Guest
BECAUSE THEY JUST WORK!!!

I like that it's unix at its core and so i can run unix software on it
without a layer like cygwin.
Luigi Sandon

Posts: 353
Registered: 10/15/99
Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple
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  Posted: Oct 10, 2014 8:29 AM   in response to: Guest in response to: Guest
I had a job where they provided me with a Lenovo laptop running an i5, 3 gigs of RAM, and a 500GB HDD.

Pratty greed employer, to give you such a crap to develop with...

BECAUSE THEY JUST WORK!!!

It's just much easier when you fully control the hardware your OS runs on. You pay an hefty fee for that, though - and when Apple decides a new OS releases no longer supports you HW, you're screwed.

HP? Dell? You'll spend a lot of time talking to people in India who, while they do seem to speak English, are mostly unintelligible.

We have 4h Dell on-site support (our machine can't leave the buidling but after a wipe - and part replaced can't leave the buidling without being wiped or destroyed) and it works enough well, the few times we had an hw failure. Anyway, I wouldn't let any "genius" put his or her hands on any of my systems... but again, controlling the whole system makes support far easier. Just it means you can choose any hardware just it needs to be the hardware Apple sells you... and nothing else.
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple
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  Posted: Oct 8, 2014 8:28 AM   in response to: Phillip Woon in response to: Phillip Woon
Phillip Woon wrote:

Luigi Sandon wrote:
Right, but the Windows tablets are running. well... Windows.

Oh yes, it's so bad to be able to run all those Windows
applications on a tablet...

Last I looked, Mac OS X had pretty much most of the same or
equivalent or better programs than windows. The only thing that I
would miss is running Delphi, but then I can use VMware. But you're
right, Delphi is slow in a VM.

Not in mine (Parallels 10). I don't notice any slowdown compared to my
plain-Window laptop.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"A coward is a hero with a wife, kids, and a mortgage."
-- Marvin Kitman.

Phillip Woon

Posts: 189
Registered: 9/30/99
Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple
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  Posted: Oct 8, 2014 10:25 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:
Phillip Woon wrote:

Luigi Sandon wrote:
Right, but the Windows tablets are running. well... Windows.

Oh yes, it's so bad to be able to run all those Windows
applications on a tablet...

Last I looked, Mac OS X had pretty much most of the same or
equivalent or better programs than windows. The only thing that I
would miss is running Delphi, but then I can use VMware. But you're
right, Delphi is slow in a VM.

Not in mine (Parallels 10). I don't notice any slowdown compared to my
plain-Window laptop.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"A coward is a hero with a wife, kids, and a mortgage."
-- Marvin Kitman.


I have an older Core Duo iMac. I'll upgrade next year with an i7 .
Rudy Velthuis (...


Posts: 7,731
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple
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  Posted: Oct 9, 2014 2:12 AM   in response to: Phillip Woon in response to: Phillip Woon
Phillip Woon wrote:

Not in mine (Parallels 10). I don't notice any slowdown compared to
my plain-Window laptop.

I have an older Core Duo iMac. I'll upgrade next year with an i7 .

I'll keep my iMac for a while longer, because it still has the built-in
DVD drive. <g>

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Humor is also a way of saying something serious."
-- T. S. Eliot (1888 - 1965)
Rudy Velthuis (...


Posts: 7,731
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple
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  Posted: Oct 8, 2014 8:27 AM   in response to: Kyle Miller in response to: Kyle Miller
Kyle Miller wrote:

Apple is introducing nothing new to the market.

None of their products was "new", if you look at the components. But
they were "nicer to use" and of good quality.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Time wounds all heels."
-- Jane Ace
Guest
Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple
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  Posted: Oct 7, 2014 5:45 PM   in response to: Konstantine Pou... in response to: Konstantine Pou...
Konstantine Poukhov wrote:
Well if this happens.

Rumor now says that new 12.5" iPad from Apple might support OSX.

http://www.businessinsider.com/the-jumbo-sized-ipad-may-run-os-x--heres-why-it-should-2014-10

As a developer I always hated those wall garden type mobile OS'es.

MacBook Air + touch screen - keyboard that also runs iOS.

-or-

iPad 12" that also runs OS X with optional keyboard.

-David
Mike Margerum

Posts: 590
Registered: 12/1/99
Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple
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  Posted: Oct 7, 2014 6:51 PM   in response to: Konstantine Pou... in response to: Konstantine Pou...
On 10/7/14 4:03 PM, Konstantine Poukhov wrote:
Well if this happens.

Rumor now says that new 12.5" iPad from Apple might support OSX.

http://www.businessinsider.com/the-jumbo-sized-ipad-may-run-os-x--heres-why-it-should-2014-10

As a developer I always hated those wall garden type mobile OS'es.
IDK it makes more sense to me to make iOS run on a laptop and work with
a trackpad. Mac OS is still way to complicated for the average user.

I love the wall garden as a developer since users cant louse up iOS devices.
Luigi Sandon

Posts: 353
Registered: 10/15/99
Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple
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  Posted: Oct 7, 2014 11:54 PM   in response to: Mike Margerum in response to: Mike Margerum
I love the wall garden as a developer since users cant louse up iOS devices.

Like jailbreaking them? <G>
Rudy Velthuis (...


Posts: 7,731
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple
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  Posted: Oct 8, 2014 12:41 AM   in response to: Mike Margerum in response to: Mike Margerum
Mike Margerum wrote:

On 10/7/14 4:03 PM, Konstantine Poukhov wrote:
Well if this happens.

Rumor now says that new 12.5" iPad from Apple might support OSX.

http://www.businessinsider.com/the-jumbo-sized-ipad-may-run-os-x--heres-why-it-should-2014-10

As a developer I always hated those wall garden type mobile OS'es.
IDK it makes more sense to me to make iOS run on a laptop and work
with a trackpad. Mac OS is still way to complicated for the average
user.

Huh???? If I see who of my relatives and in-laws got up to speed with
it very fast, I can't agree. They are/were average (some even complete
computer-illiterate) users.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Humor is by far the most significant activity of the human
brain." -- Edward De Bono
Guest
Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple
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  Posted: Oct 8, 2014 8:28 AM   in response to: Mike Margerum in response to: Mike Margerum
Mike Margerum wrote:

Mac OS is still way to complicated for the average user.

Hmmm ... I guess that's why it's so popular with first-time users, eh?

My brother's kids have been using Dell laptops forever. One went to college this fall and got a MacBook. After spending the weekend playing with it, he showed his brother and sister and they both immediately wanted to replace their Dells with a MacBook.

They all say they won't ever used a Windows machine again unless they're forced to.

My brother wasn't very pleased now that his kids want laptops that cost 3x as much as Windows boxes. But after he spent some time with the MacBook, he called me and asked if there's any way to get "good deals" on several of them because he now wants to replace all of his Dells with MacBooks. He's about as non-techie as you can get. (He used to have his secretary manage his email for him because he couldn't figure out how Outlook worked!)

One guy told me he had always bought into the myth that Macs "are just too expensive". Then he added up all of the bills for anti-virus software, security softaware, and what he spent on the Geek Squad annually, and it was more than the cost of Macs. Not to mention the time wasted when the machines were down, including the unending stream of "security updates" that Microsoft issues.

He replaced all of his family's computers with Macs and viola! Problem solved.

Here's the real test: ask anybody you see in a Starbucks or somewhere else who has a Mac laptop if they'd trade it to you for the latest, greatest most powerful Windows laptop on the market. They'll say, "Uh, no thanks."

Ask anybody with a Windows box if they'd trade you for a 2-year old MacBook Pro, and they'll probably say "sure!".

-David
Markus Humm

Posts: 5,113
Registered: 11/9/03
Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple
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  Posted: Oct 8, 2014 10:50 AM   in response to: Guest in response to: Guest
Am 08.10.2014 17:28, schrieb David Schwartz:
Mike Margerum wrote:

Mac OS is still way to complicated for the average user.

Hmmm ... I guess that's why it's so popular with first-time users, eh?

My brother's kids have been using Dell laptops forever. One went to college this fall and got a MacBook. After spending the weekend playing with it, he showed his brother and sister and they both immediately wanted to replace their Dells with a MacBook.

They all say they won't ever used a Windows machine again unless they're forced to.

My brother wasn't very pleased now that his kids want laptops that cost 3x as much as Windows boxes. But after he spent some time with the MacBook, he called me and asked if there's any way to get "good deals" on several of them because he now wants to replace all of his Dells with MacBooks. He's about as non-techie as you can get. (He used to have his secretary manage his email for him because he couldn't figure out how Outlook worked!)

One guy told me he had always bought into the myth that Macs "are just too expensive". Then he added up all of the bills for anti-virus software, security softaware, and what he spent on the Geek Squad annually, and it was more than the cost of Macs. Not to mention the time wasted when the machines were down, including the unending stream of "security updates" that Microsoft issues.

Hello,

I'm not sure how much he spent on security software, but I anually renew
my anti virus for about 30 € and be done and haven't had anything really
serious the last few years.

I just make sure I install the updates of the software I've installed.
That's the only weak point: Windows update only updates MS products. But
I guess the updating function of Mac OS X is the same in that regard.

Greetings

Markus
Luigi Sandon

Posts: 353
Registered: 10/15/99
Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple
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  Posted: Oct 10, 2014 1:42 PM   in response to: Markus Humm in response to: Markus Humm
That's the only weak point: Windows update only updates MS products. But

Even Linux updates only the FOSS software available in its repositories.

Try to get Linux automatically update some commercial software, i.e. Oracle - database or even just the client libraries everytime there's a patch available... or you get an expensive support contract with Oracle for something they support and they will take care of it, or you have to update everything yourself.

WinRT applications are automatically updated from the store, not only the MS ones - but you pay for that service with the sale fee unless your application is free. But IMHO for more expensive commercial applications I see very few companies willingly to give MS 30% of their sale revenues just to get an update service.

With WSUS, anyway, you can add your own applications to the automatic delivery process.
Quentin Correll


Posts: 2,412
Registered: 12/1/99
Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple
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  Posted: Oct 11, 2014 11:12 AM   in response to: Luigi Sandon in response to: Luigi Sandon
Luigi,

| Subject: Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple

One of the longest threads I've seen here in a LONG time! <g>

--

Q

1.19.1.372 (Q's Broken Toolbar.)

Kyle Miller

Posts: 115
Registered: 10/4/99
Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple
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  Posted: Oct 20, 2014 1:40 PM   in response to: Luigi Sandon in response to: Luigi Sandon
On 10/10/2014 03:42 PM, Luigi Sandon wrote:
Even Linux updates only the FOSS software available in its repositories.

Completely untrue. You can update any kind of software available via a registered
repository. Many are FOSS. Some are not. And, some are controlled by credentials or keys.
Rudy Velthuis (...


Posts: 7,731
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple
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  Posted: Oct 9, 2014 5:40 AM   in response to: Guest in response to: Guest
David Schwartz wrote:

Mike Margerum wrote:

Mac OS is still way to complicated for the average user.

Hmmm ... I guess that's why it's so popular with first-time users, eh?

My brother's kids have been using Dell laptops forever. One went to
college this fall and got a MacBook. After spending the weekend
playing with it, he showed his brother and sister and they both
immediately wanted to replace their Dells with a MacBook.

They all say they won't ever used a Windows machine again unless
they're forced to.

My brother wasn't very pleased now that his kids want laptops that
cost 3x as much as Windows boxes. But after he spent some time with
the MacBook, he called me and asked if there's any way to get "good
deals" on several of them because he now wants to replace all of his
Dells with MacBooks. He's about as non-techie as you can get. (He
used to have his secretary manage his email for him because he
couldn't figure out how Outlook worked!)

Similar stories here. My son started it, and now everyone (my wife, my
son, I, my sisters in law, my son's cousins, etc.) has a MacBook or a
Mac.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"A nation is a society united by a delusion about its ancestry
and by common hatred of its neighbors."
-- William R. Inge

Luigi Sandon

Posts: 353
Registered: 10/15/99
Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple
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  Posted: Oct 7, 2014 11:55 PM   in response to: Konstantine Pou... in response to: Konstantine Pou...
Rumor now says that new 12.5" iPad from Apple might support OSX.

Will it be called iSurface? <G>
Craig van Nieuw...

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Registered: 11/7/99
Re: About the only thing I might like about Apple
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  Posted: Oct 8, 2014 5:55 PM   in response to: Konstantine Pou... in response to: Konstantine Pou...
Konstantine Poukhov wrote:
Well if this happens.

Rumor now says that new 12.5" iPad from Apple might support OSX.

http://www.businessinsider.com/the-jumbo-sized-ipad-may-run-os-x--heres-why-it-should-2014-10

As a developer I always hated those wall garden type mobile OS'es.

I think the original plan back in the day was that iPhone/iPad would all run OSX, a similar strategy to MS today, but the hardware of the time was just not up to the task of running a full blown OS.
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