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Thread: Firemonkey vs. Xamarin



Permlink Replies: 23 - Last Post: Dec 22, 2017 1:34 PM Last Post By: Markus Humm
Radu Mircea Cap...

Posts: 27
Registered: 1/9/10
Firemonkey vs. Xamarin
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  Posted: Dec 11, 2017 2:29 PM
As old Delphi developer i can say that the war between Delphi and C++ MFC was won from Delphi with no doubt.
Who will win the war between Firemonkey vs. Xamarin?It depends.
As a Delphi developer i can develop now fast simple Android and iOS apps.Faster as with Xamarin.
But the Xanarin forces will be improved thanks of the financial power of Microsoft.
Idera must concentrate to win the war again like in oild times.
Eli M

Posts: 1,346
Registered: 11/9/13
Re: Firemonkey vs. Xamarin
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  Posted: Dec 11, 2017 11:08 PM   in response to: Radu Mircea Cap... in response to: Radu Mircea Cap...
The grass isn't greener in Xamarin land. What we ran into over there for example was the Xamarin HTTP client doesn't support TLS 1.2. Kind of a big deal.
madammar ellias

Posts: 111
Registered: 8/17/17
Re: Firemonkey vs. Xamarin
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  Posted: Dec 11, 2017 11:26 PM   in response to: Eli M in response to: Eli M
the difference between xamarin and firemonkey is the native performance starting from the none-buggy basic controls which embercadero claims to have it in there road-map in version 10.3 maybe in 2018 . any ide with native cross-platform controls and layouts will beat the firemonkey up .
in short xamarin is a good and strong cross-platforms development environment and its free at the main time its even better than android studio it self .

in order to give firemonkey chance to compete they need to meet the other IDE'S features which most important to become native for each platform .

Xamarin can Give you a choice on which android version that you can runs your app which fire monkey forces you to use limited android versions in latest rad studio versions you cannot run your app on devices lower than 4.x..
sure QT and Xamarin beat the Sh**out of Firemonkey in Android and ios Development possibilities and they keep knock it out year after year i don't think firemonkey will see any future at least in 6 years from now !
Dave Nottage

Posts: 1,850
Registered: 1/7/00
Re: Firemonkey vs. Xamarin
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  Posted: Dec 12, 2017 5:04 AM   in response to: madammar ellias in response to: madammar ellias
madammar ellias wrote:

Xamarin can Give you a choice on which android version that you can runs your app which fire monkey forces you to use
limited android versions in latest rad studio versions you cannot run your app on devices lower than 4.x..

That's very amusing. How many people are running Android apps lower than version 4.x?

--
Dave Nottage [MVP, TeamB]
Find hints, tips and tricks at Delphi Worlds blog: http://www.delphiworlds.com
Cristian Peța

Posts: 157
Registered: 8/7/06
Re: Firemonkey vs. Xamarin
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  Posted: Dec 12, 2017 6:05 AM   in response to: Dave Nottage in response to: Dave Nottage
Dave Nottage wrote:
That's very amusing. How many people are running Android apps lower than version 4.x?
In 10.2 Tokyo they drooped support for Android 4.0.
I have customers with Honeywell devices (barcode scanners) that run 4.1 and I hope Delphi 10.3 will not drop support for 4.1.
madammar ellias

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Registered: 8/17/17
Re: Firemonkey vs. Xamarin
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  Posted: Dec 12, 2017 7:46 AM   in response to: Dave Nottage in response to: Dave Nottage
Dave Nottage wrote:

That's very amusing. How many people are running Android apps lower than version 4.x?

--
Dave Nottage [MVP, TeamB]
Find hints, tips and tricks at Delphi Worlds blog: http://www.delphiworlds.com

there is still a good amount of android users using 3.x Api, But in any case including the ability to select from which android version you need your app start running with. like other ides should be a must need it is the basics of building android projects in QT/Xamarin/Eclipse/Android Studio .
and as the latest replay said tokyo dropped support from 4.1 versions and maybe it will be more worst in 10.3 also hopefully that it will not have the horrible performance of the apps that built with Tokyo
Markus Humm

Posts: 5,113
Registered: 11/9/03
Re: Firemonkey vs. Xamarin
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  Posted: Dec 12, 2017 9:57 AM   in response to: madammar ellias in response to: madammar ellias
Am 12.12.2017 um 16:46 schrieb madammar ellias:
Dave Nottage wrote:

That's very amusing. How many people are running Android apps lower than version 4.x?

--
Dave Nottage [MVP, TeamB]
Find hints, tips and tricks at Delphi Worlds blog: http://www.delphiworlds.com

there is still a good amount of android users using 3.x Api, But in any case including the ability to select from which android version you need your app start running with. like other ides should be a must need it is the basics of building android projects in QT/Xamarin/Eclipse/Android Studio .
and as the latest replay said tokyo dropped support from 4.1 versions and maybe it will be more worst in 10.3 also hopefully that it will not have the horrible performance of the apps that built with Tokyo

1. Version 3 was rarely used by anybody. It was targetet solemly at
tablets and there weren't that many with Android 3. Most cheap ones
were on 2.3 still back then and 3 was soon superceeded by 4.0.

2. You can select the minimum required Android version (4.0 or higher),
but not from IDE. You can edit AndroidManifestTemplate.xml for this.

3. You can select in the IDE options which API level to use for building
apps in general.

Greetings

Markus
Eli M

Posts: 1,346
Registered: 11/9/13
Re: Firemonkey vs. Xamarin
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  Posted: Dec 12, 2017 10:25 PM   in response to: madammar ellias in response to: madammar ellias
Yeah not really. If there are 1 billion Android users there are only 9,000,000 that are running less than 4.1. Plus an older version like XE7 or Berlin can support them if needed.

https://developer.android.com/about/dashboards/index.html

Version Codename API Distribution
2.3.3 -
2.3.7 Gingerbread 10 0.4%
4.0.3 -
4.0.4 Ice Cream Sandwich 15 0.5%
4.1.x Jelly Bean 16 2.0%
4.2.x 17 3.0%
4.3 18 0.9%
4.4 KitKat 19 13.4%
5.0 Lollipop 21 6.1%
5.1 22 20.2%
6.0 Marshmallow 23 29.7%
7.0 Nougat 24 19.3%
7.1 25 4.0%
8.0 Oreo 26 0.5%

madammar ellias wrote:
there is still a good amount of android users using 3.x Api,
Joseph Mitzen

Posts: 392
Registered: 6/9/02
Re: Firemonkey vs. Xamarin
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  Posted: Dec 21, 2017 11:32 AM   in response to: Dave Nottage in response to: Dave Nottage
Dave Nottage wrote:

That's very amusing. How many people are running Android apps lower than version 4.x?

Here you go:

https://developer.android.com/about/dashboards/index.html

I've got a device that uses Android 2.3.5 Gingerbread. :-)

EDIT: Sorry, didn't see this was already posted.

Edited by: Joseph Mitzen on Dec 21, 2017 11:32 AM
Steve Jordi

Posts: 111
Registered: 4/19/98
Re: Firemonkey vs. Xamarin
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  Posted: Dec 13, 2017 11:59 PM   in response to: madammar ellias in response to: madammar ellias
Xamarin does not produce native cross platform code. It's like .net and
Java. It's interpreted.

--
Steve JORDI - MSc in Geophysics/Volcanology

Geneva, Switzerland / Portland, OR, USA

Ronald Klitsche

Posts: 326
Registered: 8/26/01
Re: Firemonkey vs. Xamarin
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  Posted: Dec 14, 2017 1:46 AM   in response to: Steve Jordi in response to: Steve Jordi
Steve Jordi wrote:
Xamarin does not produce native cross platform code. It's like .net and
Java. It's interpreted.

Not fully correct:
Apple does not allow runtime code generation on iOS.
Xamarin generate native code for iOS.
https://developer.xamarin.com/guides/ios/advanced_topics/limitations/
Dalija Prasnikar

Posts: 2,325
Registered: 11/9/99
Re: Firemonkey vs. Xamarin
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  Posted: Dec 14, 2017 3:36 AM   in response to: Steve Jordi in response to: Steve Jordi
Steve Jordi wrote:
Xamarin does not produce native cross platform code. It's like .net and
Java. It's interpreted.

Actually, on Android Java is native. Also, neither .NET nor Java
are interpreted. They are compiled, just not directly to machine
code.

--
Dalija Prasnikar
Embarcadero MVP
https://dalija.prasnikar.info/
Delphi Memory Management for Classic and ARC Compilers
https://dalija.prasnikar.info/delphimm/
Joseph Mitzen

Posts: 392
Registered: 6/9/02
Re: Firemonkey vs. Xamarin
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  Posted: Dec 21, 2017 11:35 AM   in response to: Steve Jordi in response to: Steve Jordi
Steve Jordi wrote:
Xamarin does not produce native cross platform code. It's like .net and
Java. It's interpreted.

Just-in-time compilation is not the same as being interpreted. JVM's jitter, for instance, trounces Delphi's compiled code in numeric computations on the desktop because it's far more optimized than Delphi's x86-64 compiler.
Mike Margerum

Posts: 590
Registered: 12/1/99
Re: Firemonkey vs. Xamarin
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  Posted: Dec 12, 2017 12:38 PM   in response to: Radu Mircea Cap... in response to: Radu Mircea Cap...
On 12/11/17 5:29 PM, Radu Mircea Capota wrote:
As old Delphi developer i can say that the war between Delphi and C++ MFC was won from Delphi with no doubt.
Who will win the war between Firemonkey vs. Xamarin?It depends.
As a Delphi developer i can develop now fast simple Android and iOS apps.Faster as with Xamarin.
But the Xanarin forces will be improved thanks of the financial power of Microsoft.
Idera must concentrate to win the war again like in oild times.
I tried both and went with native tools. Neither one is worth the pain.
Kim Madsen

Posts: 362
Registered: 12/13/99
Re: Firemonkey vs. Xamarin
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  Posted: Dec 13, 2017 1:54 AM   in response to: Mike Margerum in response to: Mike Margerum
On 12/12/2017 21.38, Mike Margerum wrote:
On 12/11/17 5:29 PM, Radu Mircea Capota wrote:
As old Delphi developer i can say that the war between Delphi and C++ MFC was won from Delphi with no doubt.
Who will win the war between Firemonkey vs. Xamarin?It depends.
As a Delphi developer i can develop now fast simple Android and iOS apps.Faster as with Xamarin.
But the Xanarin forces will be improved thanks of the financial power of Microsoft.
Idera must concentrate to win the war again like in oild times.
I tried both and went with native tools. Neither one is worth the pain.

I appreciate your take on it.

I just want to tell that I have quite some successstories now, deploying
on both Android, IOS and native Windows using Firemonkey.

The application is able to adjust itself to the various scenarios, where
Windows deployment primarely is used for higher priced kiosk type
terminals with high uptime.

But the codebase is the same... Firemonkey using livebinding and kbmMW.

I have obviously had a learning curve using Firemonkey, styling,
livebinding, listview and such, but I dont regret not having to maintain
multiple codebases.

So I personally find Firemonkey and Embarcadero's cross compilers to be
great products.

There are always room for improvement in areas, like designtime
livebinding and firemonkey designer stability (probably related to
livebinding and/or styling).

But overall I have been much more productive than I would have been,
having to maintain 3 codebases.

best regards
Kim/C4D
Mike Margerum

Posts: 590
Registered: 12/1/99
Re: Firemonkey vs. Xamarin
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  Posted: Dec 13, 2017 7:36 AM   in response to: Kim Madsen in response to: Kim Madsen
So I personally find Firemonkey and Embarcadero's cross compilers to be
great products.

There are always room for improvement in areas, like designtime
livebinding and firemonkey designer stability (probably related to
livebinding and/or styling).

But overall I have been much more productive than I would have been,
having to maintain 3 codebases.

best regards
Kim/C4D

Glad to hear its working for you and, as i've stated on numerous
occasions, if I had not already done native iOS development prior to
trying to get FMX to work, I might have tried harder to make FMX work.
I did write a non insignificant amount of code in FMX before coming to
any conclusions so im not just blowing smoke. My experiences were
based on XE8 which damn near killed me everything was so slow and
unstable. I hope they keep improving the product. Competition is good!

I'd probably use React Native or Flutter before i'd hop back on the FMX
train, but i'm not as invested in Delphi as most here I guess.

I've got one medium sized 3 tier VCL front end I work on, but mostly
maintenance now.

If I were starting this app today, no question about it, i'd build a web
app.

Brian Hamilton ...

Posts: 556
Registered: 10/14/04
Re: Firemonkey vs. Xamarin
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  Posted: Dec 21, 2017 11:53 AM   in response to: Mike Margerum in response to: Mike Margerum
My experiences were
based on XE8 which damn near killed me everything was so slow and
unstable. I hope they keep improving the product. Competition is good!

but XE8 was the worst version for FMX
its been improving ever since
you should have kept up
the latest version is much better for FMX
Joseph Mitzen

Posts: 392
Registered: 6/9/02
Re: Firemonkey vs. Xamarin
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  Posted: Dec 21, 2017 4:29 PM   in response to: Brian Hamilton ... in response to: Brian Hamilton ...
Brian Hamilton Hamilton wrote:

but XE8 was the worst version for FMX
its been improving ever since
you should have kept up
the latest version is much better for FMX

When something isn't working for you, you usually don't keep buying it and hope that it gets better.
Brian Hamilton ...

Posts: 556
Registered: 10/14/04
Re: Firemonkey vs. Xamarin
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  Posted: Dec 21, 2017 4:34 PM   in response to: Joseph Mitzen in response to: Joseph Mitzen
not sure why you even post on this forum though when you never say anything positive about Delphi and just like to stir things up and put your oar in where you can?
Joseph Mitzen

Posts: 392
Registered: 6/9/02
Re: Firemonkey vs. Xamarin
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  Posted: Dec 21, 2017 6:09 PM   in response to: Brian Hamilton ... in response to: Brian Hamilton ...
Brian Hamilton Hamilton wrote:
not sure why you even post on this forum though when you never say anything positive about Delphi and just like to stir things up and put your oar
in where you can?

Not sure why people want to live in an echo chamber? As for saying anything positive, living in an echo chamber where the same faces developed the product for 20 years and told each other there were millions of users and everything was fine got us to where we are now. This is the forum that tried to dismiss the 7 year lack of Delphi books in 2012 by suggesting that Delphi was a mature technology and "perhaps everything that needed to be said about Delphi has already been said", that explained the lack of Delphi jobs by suggesting that when Delphi jobs appear they are filled immediately but Java jobs languish, so a lack of Delphi jobs on jobs boards compared to Java means that the Delphi job market is healthier, and tried to explain away the lack of Delphi activity on Stack Overflow by suggesting that Delphi is simply so easy to use and so well-documented that no one has questions. This forum's biggest problem is not someone willing to be critical of the product! :-)

Meanwhile over on Google Plus they're reviewing Vincent Parret's (FinalBuilder, Continua CI) article from a year ago covering 20 language features he thought were overdue for Delphi, and lamenting the fact that not a one has been implemented or appeared on a road map. No one's attacking Parret and in fact they're joking about Google's requirement for 64bit Android support in the future tying up Delphi language enhancement even longer. Oh and somewhere along the line David Heffernan (the guy who answers every Delphi question on Stack Overflow) let slip that his Delphi subscription is no longer current. No one has tried to ban him for heresy yet. Definitely a different vibe there.
Mike Margerum

Posts: 590
Registered: 12/1/99
Re: Firemonkey vs. Xamarin
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  Posted: Dec 22, 2017 11:04 AM   in response to: Joseph Mitzen in response to: Joseph Mitzen
Meanwhile over on Google Plus they're reviewing Vincent Parret's (FinalBuilder, Continua CI) article from a year ago covering 20 language features he thought were overdue for Delphi, and lamenting the fact that not a one has been implemented or appeared on a road map. No one's attacking Parret and in fact they're joking about Google's requirement for 64bit Android support in the future tying up Delphi language enhancement even longer. Oh and somewhere along the line David Heffernan (the guy who answers e
very Delphi question on Stack Overflow) let slip that his Delphi subscription is no longer current. No one has tried to ban him for heresy yet. Definitely a different vibe there.

For me, its not even the lack of language features. I actually think
Object pascal is a pretty nice language. Stability in the IDE and
Frameworks is the real problem. Berlin is solid for VCL development so
i'll stick with that release. I'm off the multi platform delphi hamster
wheel.
Markus Humm

Posts: 5,113
Registered: 11/9/03
Re: Firemonkey vs. Xamarin
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  Posted: Dec 22, 2017 1:34 PM   in response to: Joseph Mitzen in response to: Joseph Mitzen
Am 22.12.2017 um 01:29 schrieb Joseph Mitzen:
Brian Hamilton Hamilton wrote:

but XE8 was the worst version for FMX
its been improving ever since
you should have kept up
the latest version is much better for FMX

When something isn't working for you, you usually don't keep buying it and hope that it gets better.

No. But there is no need to buy the next version in order to test it.
There's a 30 day trial available and that can be tested to check if it
improved enough to warrant an upgrade and a new attempt on the matter
with this tool.

Greetings

Markus
Mike Margerum

Posts: 590
Registered: 12/1/99
Re: Firemonkey vs. Xamarin
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  Posted: Dec 22, 2017 11:02 AM   in response to: Brian Hamilton ... in response to: Brian Hamilton ...
On 12/21/17 2:53 PM, Brian Hamilton Hamilton wrote:
My experiences were
based on XE8 which damn near killed me everything was so slow and
unstable. I hope they keep improving the product. Competition is good!

but XE8 was the worst version for FMX
its been improving ever since
you should have kept up
the latest version is much better for FMX


I had to deliver a working product back in the XE8 time frame so I had
to rewrite in Swift. I didn't have a few years to wait for a working
FMX/IDE. Believe me, I had a ton of pascal code I wanted to reuse from
my VCL project so I had every incentive to use Delphi. Too late to go
back now. Besides swift is really nice and i'm even doing some
mac/Appkit coding now.

Brian Hamilton ...

Posts: 556
Registered: 10/14/04
Re: Firemonkey vs. Xamarin
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  Posted: Dec 21, 2017 11:51 AM   in response to: Kim Madsen in response to: Kim Madsen
same here
just because one person posts that it did not work for them for their project does not mean it might not work for your for your project
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