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Thread: Eldos SecureBlackbox



Permlink Replies: 31 - Last Post: Aug 4, 2017 9:31 PM Last Post By: Chad Hower
Pascal Coenen

Posts: 1
Registered: 1/23/01
Eldos SecureBlackbox
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  Posted: Jul 4, 2017 11:48 AM
Hi,

Would like your advice. I'm the owner of the following Eldos License: "SecureBlackbox VCL, Professional package, single-developer vendor license with lifetime free upgrades". It costed a lot of money but I did this because it was with lifetime free upgrades, I felt safe. I installed my yearly updates and saw the the latest version (SB16) was available. When I asked Eldos support where I could download this version I got the following reply:

"All former EldoS products are being re-launched by /n software, Inc. under the new ownership and under new licensing terms.
...
+The new ownership and new licensing terms, I am afraid, mean the end of life for EldoS SecureBlackbox 15. You will need to get a new license (perpetual or subscription) for the new version.
...
"+

Is this legal? The product still exists. It feels like I'm being ripped off. I'm really disappointed in Eldos.

Regards,
Pascal

Edited by: Pascal Coenen on Jul 4, 2017 11:58 AM
Quentin Correll


Posts: 2,412
Registered: 12/1/99
Re: Eldos SecureBlackbox [Edit]
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  Posted: Jul 4, 2017 2:06 PM   in response to: Pascal Coenen in response to: Pascal Coenen
Pascal,

| It feels like I'm being ripped off.

I'd say that your feeling is accurate. <sigh>

You might get your/an attorney to have-a-go at them. <serious>

--

Q -- XanaNews 1.20-0cfde51 - 2017-07-04 14:02:50
Dave Nottage

Posts: 1,850
Registered: 1/7/00
Re: Eldos SecureBlackbox [Edit]
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  Posted: Jul 4, 2017 2:47 PM   in response to: Pascal Coenen in response to: Pascal Coenen
Pascal Coenen wrote:

Is this legal?

Probably, however IMHO they should have been required to state it applies only while they own the product
(preferably written in fire, in letters 30 feet high).

--
Dave Nottage [MVP, TeamB]
Find hints, tips and tricks at Delphi Worlds blog: http://www.delphiworlds.com
Eivind Bakkestuen


Posts: 447
Registered: 5/8/01
Re: Eldos SecureBlackbox [Edit]
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  Posted: Jul 4, 2017 4:10 PM   in response to: Pascal Coenen in response to: Pascal Coenen
Is this legal? The product still exists. It feels like I'm being
ripped off. I'm really disappointed in Eldos.

Does the Eldos EULA state that the license is perpetual, even if the
ownership is transferred to another company?

--
Eivind Bakkestuen [NDD]
David Erbas-White

Posts: 202
Registered: 10/11/99
Re: Eldos SecureBlackbox [Edit]
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  Posted: Jul 4, 2017 6:13 PM   in response to: Eivind Bakkestuen in response to: Eivind Bakkestuen
On 7/4/2017 4:10 PM, Eivind Bakkestuen wrote:
Is this legal? The product still exists. It feels like I'm being
ripped off. I'm really disappointed in Eldos.

Does the Eldos EULA state that the license is perpetual, even if the
ownership is transferred to another company?

Why would it have to? When one company purchases another company, the
purchase BOTH the assets and the liabilities. Or is this some kind of
alternate universe where they're able to separate the two out?

David Erbas-White

Edmund Wong

Posts: 154
Registered: 10/26/02
Re: Eldos SecureBlackbox [Edit]
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  Posted: Jul 4, 2017 7:15 PM   in response to: David Erbas-White in response to: David Erbas-White
David Erbas-White wrote:

Why would it have to? When one company purchases another company, the
purchase BOTH the assets and the liabilities. Or is this some kind of
alternate universe where they're able to separate the two out?

(Plays the Twilight Zone theme song)

And I didn't realize Eldos got bought out.

Edmund
Kim Madsen

Posts: 362
Registered: 12/13/99
Re: Eldos SecureBlackbox [Edit]
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  Posted: Jul 4, 2017 10:13 PM   in response to: David Erbas-White in response to: David Erbas-White
Den 7/5/2017 kl. 03:13 skrev David Erbas-White:
On 7/4/2017 4:10 PM, Eivind Bakkestuen wrote:
Is this legal? The product still exists. It feels like I'm being
ripped off. I'm really disappointed in Eldos.

Does the Eldos EULA state that the license is perpetual, even if the
ownership is transferred to another company?

Why would it have to? When one company purchases another company, the
purchase BOTH the assets and the liabilities. Or is this some kind of
alternate universe where they're able to separate the two out?

David Erbas-White


Well.. it happened with KSDev too.. Same thing... was bought out by
Embarcadero, which do require people to purchase new versions of Delphi
or have a subscription for updates for Delphi to get updates for what is
now FireMonkey.

Im not a lawyer, but it seems to me that promises made falls under the
old company, and thus that it is a juridical legal path to take when
buying out a company.

I would generally avoid all products promising lifetime perpetual
updates, as that is a good indicator of something soon going out of
business.

best regards
Kim
Components4Developers
Arnaud Bouchez

Posts: 137
Registered: 8/2/15
Re: Eldos SecureBlackbox [Edit]
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  Posted: Jul 4, 2017 11:32 PM   in response to: Kim Madsen in response to: Kim Madsen
Kim Madsen wrote:
I would generally avoid all products promising lifetime perpetual
updates, as that is a good indicator of something soon going out of
business.

... or at least sounds like a promise impossible to keep!

I felt also fooled by KSDev lifetime license...
I paid for a lifetime, and my license stand for one year.
David Erbas-White

Posts: 202
Registered: 10/11/99
Re: Eldos SecureBlackbox [Edit]
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  Posted: Jul 5, 2017 12:01 AM   in response to: Kim Madsen in response to: Kim Madsen
On 7/4/2017 10:13 PM, Kim Madsen wrote:

Well.. it happened with KSDev too.. Same thing... was bought out by
Embarcadero, which do require people to purchase new versions of Delphi
or have a subscription for updates for Delphi to get updates for what is
now FireMonkey.

Im not a lawyer, but it seems to me that promises made falls under the
old company, and thus that it is a juridical legal path to take when
buying out a company.

I don't disagree with the example, I was going to use it, but was afraid
I'd be told I'm "bashing Delphi" (or EMBT). But frankly, EMBT bought
the company, and they bought the liabilities as well as the assets.

Although, now that I think about it, I seem to recall some
weasel-wording wherein EMBT only bought the intellectual property, and
KSDev remained as a 'company' with no assets (or something of that fashion).

I doubt if it would hold up in court, but the problem is, it's civil,
not criminal, and what lawyer is going to take it (and how many
customers were there of KSDev who would have the money to take it to court).

Once again, my 'position' (and I'm not a lawyer) is that if EMBT bought
the assets of the company, they've also bought the liabilities (because,
for example, the assets were not 'unencumbered').

I was heavily involved in a similar transaction a few years back where a
larger company bought up a much smaller company, and a tremendous amount
of time, money, and energy went into ensuring that none of the assets
were 'encumbered'.

David Erbas-White
Kim Madsen

Posts: 362
Registered: 12/13/99
Re: Eldos SecureBlackbox [Edit]
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  Posted: Jul 6, 2017 1:56 AM   in response to: David Erbas-White in response to: David Erbas-White
Hi,

I think the key word in those type perpetual licenses is... "Lifetime".
Its such a nice elastic word, because lifetime of what?
- Your life
- The companies life
- The products life under the current name
- The products life under future names
- The products life under new owner
etc.

I think its more an ethical issue for the company selling off the
product, than the company purchasing the ownership of the product.
Basically the seller could just state that the product would not be sold
off unless those licenses were respected. If that was part of the
contract, the buyer could accept or not.
But obviously the seller feels fine about getting the money "twice"
without further responsibilities.

best regards
Kim/C4D

On 05/07/2017 09.01, David Erbas-White wrote:

On 7/4/2017 10:13 PM, Kim Madsen wrote:

Well.. it happened with KSDev too.. Same thing... was bought out by
Embarcadero, which do require people to purchase new versions of Delphi
or have a subscription for updates for Delphi to get updates for what is
now FireMonkey.

Im not a lawyer, but it seems to me that promises made falls under the
old company, and thus that it is a juridical legal path to take when
buying out a company.

I don't disagree with the example, I was going to use it, but was afraid
I'd be told I'm "bashing Delphi" (or EMBT). But frankly, EMBT bought
the company, and they bought the liabilities as well as the assets.

Although, now that I think about it, I seem to recall some
weasel-wording wherein EMBT only bought the intellectual property, and
KSDev remained as a 'company' with no assets (or something of that fashion).

I doubt if it would hold up in court, but the problem is, it's civil,
not criminal, and what lawyer is going to take it (and how many
customers were there of KSDev who would have the money to take it to court).

Once again, my 'position' (and I'm not a lawyer) is that if EMBT bought
the assets of the company, they've also bought the liabilities (because,
for example, the assets were not 'unencumbered').

I was heavily involved in a similar transaction a few years back where a
larger company bought up a much smaller company, and a tremendous amount
of time, money, and energy went into ensuring that none of the assets
were 'encumbered'.

David Erbas-White
Erich Kuba

Posts: 2
Registered: 2/16/15
Re: Eldos SecureBlackbox [Edit]
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  Posted: Jul 6, 2017 12:09 PM   in response to: Kim Madsen in response to: Kim Madsen
Kim Madsen wrote:
Hi,

I think the key word in those type perpetual licenses is... "Lifetime".
Its such a nice elastic word, because lifetime of what?

You're absolutely right.

The idea that one can rip the IP out of a business, perform a standard incremental upgrade on the IP and then sell it under the same name with the same version numbering by the same people fronting the business and claim that the company's historical contractual obligations to customers, who have paid considerable amounts of money for those contracts, have magically come to an end is grossly unethical, and it is that unethical behavior that presents the greatest threat to the future of the product. Neither of these parties seem to have had the decency to put the customer first.

The difficult decision that lies before me (us) is not whether we pay more money over to this lot or not, but rather whether the product will even survive this fiasco in the end. Personally, I'm not convinced.

I think that a wait and see approach is prudent at this juncture. As I previously mentioned, I've managed to get SBB Ver 15.1 to compile in Tokyo, which solves my immediate problem and gives me the wriggle room I need to decouple my dependency on SBB whilst still using it in the short term and then we'll see where this goes. If the new owners prove themselves to be good custodians of the product who are truly invested into it, then it may well be best for me to just fork out more cash at some point in the future, but if not, then I'll at least have the pleasure of knowing that I was not duped twice by the same crowd.
Edmund Wong

Posts: 154
Registered: 10/26/02
Re: Eldos SecureBlackbox [Edit]
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  Posted: Jul 6, 2017 6:46 PM   in response to: Erich Kuba in response to: Erich Kuba
Erich Kuba wrote:
Kim Madsen wrote:
Hi,

I think the key word in those type perpetual licenses is... "Lifetime".
Its such a nice elastic word, because lifetime of what?

You're absolutely right.

The idea that one can rip the IP out of a business, perform a standard incremental upgrade on the IP and then sell it under the same name with the same version numbering by the same people fronting the business and claim that the company's historical contractual obligations to customers, who have paid considerable amounts of money for those contracts, have magically come to an end is grossly unethical, and it is that unethical behavior that presents the greatest threat to the future of the product. Neith
er of these parties seem to have had the decency to put the customer first.

Well... I'm pretty dismayed that /n came to that decision
considering how much the Secureblackbox packages cost (a crap tonne of
money for hobbyist standards). I had been looking at those packages
on and off; but just couldn't afford it.

Anyway... live and learn.


I think that a wait and see approach is prudent at this juncture. As I previously mentioned, I've managed to get SBB Ver 15.1 to compile in Tokyo, which solves my immediate problem and gives me the wriggle room I need to decouple my dependency on SBB whilst still using it in the short term and then we'll see where this goes. If the new owners prove themselves to be good custodians of the product who are truly invested into it, then it may well be best for me to just fork out more cash at

Hope springs eternal...

Edmund
Michael Thuma

Posts: 104
Registered: 1/30/00
Re: Eldos SecureBlackbox [Edit]
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  Posted: Jul 6, 2017 10:32 PM   in response to: Kim Madsen in response to: Kim Madsen
The product's lifetime. Support is for the product.

Kim Madsen wrote:
Hi,

I think the key word in those type perpetual licenses is... "Lifetime".
Its such a nice elastic word, because lifetime of what?
- Your life
- The companies life
- The products life under the current name
- The products life under future names
- The products life under new owner
etc.

I think its more an ethical issue for the company selling off the
product, than the company purchasing the ownership of the product.
Basically the seller could just state that the product would not be sold
off unless those licenses were respected. If that was part of the
contract, the buyer could accept or not.
But obviously the seller feels fine about getting the money "twice"
without further responsibilities.

best regards
Kim/C4D

On 05/07/2017 09.01, David Erbas-White wrote:

On 7/4/2017 10:13 PM, Kim Madsen wrote:

Well.. it happened with KSDev too.. Same thing... was bought out by
Embarcadero, which do require people to purchase new versions of Delphi
or have a subscription for updates for Delphi to get updates for what is
now FireMonkey.

Im not a lawyer, but it seems to me that promises made falls under the
old company, and thus that it is a juridical legal path to take when
buying out a company.

I don't disagree with the example, I was going to use it, but was afraid
I'd be told I'm "bashing Delphi" (or EMBT). But frankly, EMBT bought
the company, and they bought the liabilities as well as the assets.

Although, now that I think about it, I seem to recall some
weasel-wording wherein EMBT only bought the intellectual property, and
KSDev remained as a 'company' with no assets (or something of that fashion).

I doubt if it would hold up in court, but the problem is, it's civil,
not criminal, and what lawyer is going to take it (and how many
customers were there of KSDev who would have the money to take it to court).

Once again, my 'position' (and I'm not a lawyer) is that if EMBT bought
the assets of the company, they've also bought the liabilities (because,
for example, the assets were not 'unencumbered').

I was heavily involved in a similar transaction a few years back where a
larger company bought up a much smaller company, and a tremendous amount
of time, money, and energy went into ensuring that none of the assets
were 'encumbered'.

David Erbas-White

--
Delphi Programming is fun. Hilarious.

Edited by: Michael Thuma on Jul 6, 2017 10:32 PM
Michael Thuma

Posts: 104
Registered: 1/30/00
Re: Eldos SecureBlackbox [Edit]
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  Posted: Jul 10, 2017 6:26 AM   in response to: David Erbas-White in response to: David Erbas-White
n/software will try to make business and they will give it a try :).

What will change in the case of SBB ist that you now get support for all technologies.

Handing over a product/good as a license reflects the final state when the material already read the maximum distribution. You can only trade in a license payment in favor of a write-off of a good you own. The final consumer cannot :).

An industrial line (especially) ships to a huge dump. A little market stand in front is the consumer where the human in the role of the 'consumer' receives a good. Once you are trying to act social (take an action that allows other one to benefit) you creating waste. That's all.

In a market-place where all goods are equal you don't care (growth - increasing the distribution of a good). The closer you come to the maximum quantity reached from your perspective (you never really know) the material good starts to loose material shape (rent, leasing ....). This means for business that the goods start to polarize into
a) investment goods (requiring interest to be earned)
b) pure consumption (unfree goods)

In that situation you sacrifice the write-offs of the source code you own in favor of possession of the yearly payments for the components as a company. Social action has to be paid.

You cannot do your neighbor a favor anymore by providing him or her a Windows application based on commercial things. You could on a smart-device but the smart device is already a computer handed over in the logic of the consumer in shape of real consumption especially together with the cloud.

If you can combine a tablet with an application that would really be a new start into another period where you can hand over components to end consumers because they can act as market makers at large scale if they do and a critical number can be reached.

Once you receive a good in the consumer the provision risk from your side is handed over to the provider of the good and in an industrial line put on the machine. Even if a component helps you to manage the receiver's provision risk the risk doesn't go away and remains. This means that a social action has to be valued. You cannot escape the market place.

In the U.S. people very often think in terms of free goods traded in market places.

---
I personally see this life-time offering as an (re)insurance if the switch to selling SB as a bundle goes wrong.
---

Eldos SBB and n/software components are pretty different animals.

David Erbas-White wrote:
On 7/4/2017 10:13 PM, Kim Madsen wrote:


David Erbas-White

--
Delphi Programming is fun. Hilarious.
Erich Kuba

Posts: 2
Registered: 2/16/15
Re: Eldos SecureBlackbox
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  Posted: Jul 5, 2017 6:30 PM   in response to: Pascal Coenen in response to: Pascal Coenen
Pascal Coenen wrote:
Would like your advice. I'm the owner of the following Eldos License: "SecureBlackbox VCL, Professional package, single-developer vendor license with lifetime free upgrades". It costed a lot of money but I did this because it was with lifetime free upgrades, I felt safe. I installed my yearly updates and saw the the latest version (SB16) was available. When I asked Eldos support where I could download this version I got the following reply:

Pascal, I can trump you on that one mate!! I bought SBB Pro for both VCL and NG with lifetime upgrades and like you I now find myself feeling rather sick about the situation - I've engaged with both EldoS and /n software and there is absolutely no interest in considering our situation, and paying even more money to a party/parties that have already done us over is not something I'm about to do.

Pascal Coenen wrote:
Is this legal? The product still exists. It feels like I'm being ripped off.

You are being ripped off mate and it might even be legal.

The big looser here is the customer and I fear SBB will be die within a very short period of time. In fact, in my discussion with /n they told me that they have the right to stop supporting SecureBlackbox indefinitely and replace it with IP*Works! if they wanted to, which begs the question as to their intentions. I've got to say that a better outcome for the customers would have been if EldoS had open-sourced the code like TurboPower did so that we could have collaborated to ensure it's long term survival. As a learning, this experience just reinforces the value of loosely coupling third party components as far as possible.

For what it's worth: I've managed to get SBB 15.1 compiling and working in Tokyo (Win32 & Win64 - haven't tried the other targets yet) and it's really not as difficult as some have been made out to be ... it took all of 24 lines of code in SBUtils to do it. I'm not sure that I'm able to give you the code, but ask yourself: how would it benefit me if I created an overload for LIntToPointer() and another two for SBMove().

SBB has been a cornerstone for my work, but in my view the foundations of that cornerstone are broken. I'm relieved I've got it working in Tokyo as it takes the pressure off in the short term, but I'll be decoupling it from my code base and moving to an alternative as soon as practically possible.
Luigi Sandon

Posts: 353
Registered: 10/15/99
Re: Eldos SecureBlackbox
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  Posted: Jul 11, 2017 2:24 AM   in response to: Erich Kuba in response to: Erich Kuba
Erich Kuba wrote:
a better outcome for the customers would have been if EldoS had open-sourced the code like TurboPower did

TurboPower was never acquired. Its parent company just decided to close the Delphi libraries business, because it had a more lucrative one (casino game machines). Yet, it made a good move open sourcing the libraries (maybe it tried to sell them before, I don't remember, yet it could have removed them from the market simply).

EldoS was acquired for its products and its IP. /n software has competing products, merging or removing a competitor products will still benefit itself.

Surely not honoring actual licenses, at least in the beginning, or offering no "upgrade" plan doesn't make them look reliable business partners.

so that we could have collaborated to ensure it's long term survival.

TP libraries looks barely on life support - and the encryption library was quite hijacked (and the attempt made to change its license to GPLv3 was quite idiotic).

Anyway, the last thing you need with an encryption library are sorcerer's apprentices. Any bug in such libraries can lead to very dangerous issues.
Roland Kossow

Posts: 77
Registered: 9/23/99
Re: Eldos SecureBlackbox
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  Posted: Jul 14, 2017 8:35 AM   in response to: Pascal Coenen in response to: Pascal Coenen
Oh wow.
This is a new development and I feel also ripped off now ... and am disappointed. 2000€ ... just like that.
Perhabs we should find a lawyer together. But that will also be expensive, which is probably their calculus.
Anybody else here - in this situation?
Vincent Parrett

Posts: 397
Registered: 10/10/99
Re: Eldos SecureBlackbox
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  Posted: Jul 19, 2017 5:35 AM   in response to: Roland Kossow in response to: Roland Kossow
On 15/07/2017 1:35 AM, Roland Kossow wrote:
Oh wow.
This is a new development and I feel also ripped off now ... and am disappointed. 2000€ ... just like that.
Perhabs we should find a lawyer together. But that will also be expensive, which is probably their calculus.
Anybody else here - in this situation?

I just discovered this today to, I own licenses for both the vcl and
.net versions, and my products use them quite heavily. This certainly
leaves me somewhat pissed off.

For the .net side, I have at a good replacement (rebex) which in the
case of sftp and ftps outperforms eldos by a country mile.

For the vcl version, I'm only using a few features so that I'm sure I
can find elsewhere. One thing is for sure, I won't be using n/software,
they typically don't sell the source, and that's a non starter for me
with delphi libraries.

--
Regards

Vincent Parrett

CEO - VSoft Technologies Pty Ltd
https://www.finalbuilder.com
Blog: https://www.finalbuilder.com/resources/blogs
Automate your Software builds with FinalBuilder.
Open Source : https://github.com/VSoftTechnologies
Dan Beall

Posts: 1
Registered: 8/31/17
Re: Eldos SecureBlackbox
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  Posted: Jul 31, 2017 7:00 AM   in response to: Vincent Parrett in response to: Vincent Parrett
Hi everyone,

My name is Dan Beall and I am the Marketing Director for /n software. This thread was brought to my attention last week and I thought it would be best if I chime in.

I want to assure everyone that we have planned a bright future for SecureBlackbox and we are firmly committed to supporting the product in the long term. The original SecureBlackbox team is still behind the product, working together with the /n software IP*Works! team, collaborating, and learning from each other. They are actively adding new security features and enhancements for updates to the current version (v16) and planning for the next version (v17).

Here are just a few items they are working on:

* TLS 1.3 support, with preliminary support already added to SecureBlackbox 16.
* ED25519 and ED448 algorithms for use independently and with TLS 1.3.
* Key Management Interoperability Protocol (KMIP) client and server components.
* Trust-service Status Lists (TSL).
* DNS requests over TLS and DTLS.
* DSS Core 1.0 and DSS Timestamp profiles.

Our original plan following the acquisition was to merge SecureBlackbox into IP*Works! and offer one consolidated solution. After carefully discussing these plans with SecureBlackbox users and the SecureBlackbox team, we decided to continue development of SecureBlackbox and its API without breaking compatibility.

We believe that we can create a stronger product and serve you better by keeping SecureBlackbox a separate product alongside IP*Works!. This comes with significant business and development cost, but it is a worthwhile investment, that we believe will pay strong dividends in the future and increase our market footprint.

Last but not least, I hope you all like our brand new website (http://www.secureblackbox.com) where I have personally invested quite a bit of my time during the past few months.

Thank you all for your business and your continued support!
Mark Marks

Posts: 269
Registered: 9/11/00
Re: Eldos SecureBlackbox
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  Posted: Jul 31, 2017 8:48 AM   in response to: Dan Beall in response to: Dan Beall
Dan Beall wrote:

Thank you all for your business and your continued support!

Funny!

The point of the original post was completely ignored.

The reply was an ad.

I wonder how much money Dan Bell and team think they are making/saving
by not, at a minimum, giving current customers 1 year of free updates.

My2c.
Zoran M

Posts: 11
Registered: 11/2/08
Re: Eldos SecureBlackbox [Edit]
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  Posted: Aug 1, 2017 5:41 AM   in response to: Dan Beall in response to: Dan Beall
Dan Beall wrote:

Thank you all for your business and your continued support!

Original post says:

"This is a new development and I feel also ripped off now ...".

You didn't address that at all.

Are you going to honor existing maintenance contracts or not?
Roland Kossow

Posts: 77
Registered: 9/23/99
Re: Eldos SecureBlackbox [Edit]
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  Posted: Aug 1, 2017 5:59 AM   in response to: Zoran M in response to: Zoran M
Hi Zoran.
No - they are not.

I received the following answer on my inquiry per mail:
"As part of the acquisition terms /n software acquired from EldoS only the IP and this IP came as a source code and supplementary data, not as a product that /n software is obliged to support and maintain. We have the right to stop supporting SecureBlackbox indefinitely and replace it with IP*Works! if we wanted to. The fact that we have decided to support SecureBlackbox long term is actually in the best interest of all our customers.

I understand that you were promised free upgrades for the life of the product (as stated in EldoS Corporation licenses) and EldoS Corporation has honored the license terms and its promise to you for as long as these products belonged and were maintained by EldoS Corporation. Now EldoS Corporation no longer owns the IP, thus the products by EldoS Corporation have reached their end of life. On the other hand, /n software is the new owner of the IP and it is developing and supporting new versions of the software. We hope that you will find our software and support valuable and pay for the value that you will receive.

I would encourage you to look at this from a practical point of view. The lifetime free upgrade model was never a sustainable model. A very likely outcome of such a model would have been for EldoS to go out of business and stop supporting the SecureBlackbox because it could not afford to do so. You may have found this outcome fair, but would it have been favorable to you? At least with the /n software in the picture you have the option to receive upgrades and support at a fee if you choose to – SecureBlackbox gets to have a new life.

I hope you understand. Only two outcomes were possible. The one that actually took place was the best outcome of everyone involved. That said, you are free to consult a lawyer or look at another component vendor."

Further there is no source anymore - as far as I know. I cannot really imagine anybody arround me who would use a non-open-source cryptlib. Too bad - this is also the problem with TMS ( http://www.tmssoftware.com/site/default.asp?t=1 ) TMS is nothing compared to Eldos anyhow. Nothing compares to Eldos SecureBlackbox.

I have no idea if the deal arrangement as nsoft and eldos did it is legally clean, but I think if anybody eldos would have the trouble in the arrangement.
Matthew Jones

Posts: 337
Registered: 1/25/98
Re: Eldos SecureBlackbox [Edit]
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  Posted: Aug 3, 2017 7:08 AM   in response to: Roland Kossow in response to: Roland Kossow
Roland Kossow wrote:

I cannot really imagine anybody arround me who would use a non-open-source cryptlib. Too bad - this is also the problem with TMS ( http://www.tmssoftware.com/site/default.asp?t=1 ) TMS is nothing compared to Eldos anyhow.

Not sure you mean "open source" as it is widely used, but "source included". And for reference the TMS Cryptography seems to include source - at least there's a load of big .pas files on my drive here.

And finally, I agree that TMS is not perhaps as comprehensive as SBB, but I decided that was a good thing. It used to take me a while to work out how to get what I wanted from SBB. TMS was easier for my basic needs. And a lot cheaper. And less likely to be sold away...
Rudy Velthuis (...


Posts: 7,731
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: Eldos SecureBlackbox [Edit]
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  Posted: Aug 3, 2017 9:55 AM   in response to: Matthew Jones in response to: Matthew Jones
Matthew Jones wrote:

Roland Kossow wrote:

I cannot really imagine anybody arround me who would use a
non-open-source cryptlib. Too bad - this is also the problem with
TMS ( http://www.tmssoftware.com/site/default.asp?t=1 ) TMS is
nothing compared to Eldos anyhow.

Not sure you mean "open source" as it is widely used, but "source
included".

I usually find "source included" good enough. But in the case of
cryptography and other security topics, "Open Source" is probably the
better way, because then it can be peer reviewed by many.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Because I do it with one small ship, I am called a terrorist.
You do it with a whole fleet and are called an emperor."
-- A pirate, from St. Augustine's "City of God"
Matthew Jones

Posts: 337
Registered: 1/25/98
Re: Eldos SecureBlackbox [Edit]
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  Posted: Aug 4, 2017 2:04 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB, MVP) wrote:

because then it can be peer reviewed by many.

We saw how that worked out!
Rudy Velthuis (...


Posts: 7,731
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: Eldos SecureBlackbox [Edit]
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  Posted: Aug 4, 2017 2:21 AM   in response to: Matthew Jones in response to: Matthew Jones
Matthew Jones wrote:

Rudy Velthuis (TeamB, MVP) wrote:

because then it can be peer reviewed by many.

We saw how that worked out!

I'm afraid I don't follow.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Democracy is not an incident that happens overnight, nor a gift
that America can give to the world. It is a culture which needs
peace to evolve." -- Shirin Ebadi, Nobel Peace Laureate of Iran
Matthew Jones

Posts: 337
Registered: 1/25/98
Re: Eldos SecureBlackbox [Edit]
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  Posted: Aug 4, 2017 3:10 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB, MVP) wrote:

because then it can be peer reviewed by many.

We saw how that worked out!

I'm afraid I don't follow.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linus%27s_Law

Roland Kossow

Posts: 77
Registered: 9/23/99
Re: Eldos SecureBlackbox [Edit]
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  Posted: Aug 3, 2017 12:55 PM   in response to: Matthew Jones in response to: Matthew Jones
Hi.
You are right - I meant "source included".
I think the pas files use at the end all a cryptlib dll.

Best regards

Roland
Chad Hower

Posts: 613
Registered: 3/2/07
Re: Eldos SecureBlackbox [Edit]
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  Posted: Aug 4, 2017 9:31 PM   in response to: Roland Kossow in response to: Roland Kossow
Wow. Simply no other words.

On 8/1/2017 8:59 AM, Roland Kossow wrote:
Hi Zoran.
No - they are not.

I received the following answer on my inquiry per mail:
"As part of the acquisition terms /n software acquired from EldoS only the IP and this IP came as a source code and supplementary data, not as a product that /n software is obliged to support and maintain. We have the right to stop supporting SecureBlackbox indefinitely and replace it with IP*Works! if we wanted to. The fact that we have decided to support SecureBlackbox long term is actually in the best interest of all our customers.

I understand that you were promised free upgrades for the life of the product (as stated in EldoS Corporation licenses) and EldoS Corporation has honored the license terms and its promise to you for as long as these products belonged and were maintained by EldoS Corporation. Now EldoS Corporation no longer owns the IP, thus the products by EldoS Corporation have reached their end of life. On the other hand, /n software is the new owner of the IP and it is developing and supporting new versions of the soft
ware. We hope that you will find our software and support valuable and pay for the value that you will receive.

I would encourage you to look at this from a practical point of view. The lifetime free upgrade model was never a sustainable model. A very likely outcome of such a model would have been for EldoS to go out of business and stop supporting the SecureBlackbox because it could not afford to do so. You may have found this outcome fair, but would it have been favorable to you? At least with the /n software in the picture you have the option to receive upgrades and support at a fee if you choose to – SecureBlac
kbox gets to have a new life.

I hope you understand. Only two outcomes were possible. The one that actually took place was the best outcome of everyone involved. That said, you are free to consult a lawyer or look at another component vendor."

Further there is no source anymore - as far as I know. I cannot really imagine anybody arround me who would use a non-open-source cryptlib. Too bad - this is also the problem with TMS ( http://www.tmssoftware.com/site/default.asp?t=1 ) TMS is nothing compared to Eldos anyhow. Nothing compares to Eldos SecureBlackbox.

I have no idea if the deal arrangement as nsoft and eldos did it is legally clean, but I think if anybody eldos would have the trouble in the arrangement.
Luigi Sandon

Posts: 353
Registered: 10/15/99
Re: Eldos SecureBlackbox
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  Posted: Aug 2, 2017 2:06 AM   in response to: Vincent Parrett in response to: Vincent Parrett
Vincent Parrett wrote:
can find elsewhere. One thing is for sure, I won't be using n/software,
they typically don't sell the source, and that's a non starter for me
with delphi libraries.

It should be a non-starter for encryption libraries in any languages. I would never use code I can't inspect and I can't compile from source.
Brandon Staggs

Posts: 683
Registered: 3/3/01
Re: Eldos SecureBlackbox [Edit]
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  Posted: Aug 1, 2017 2:22 PM   in response to: Pascal Coenen in response to: Pascal Coenen
"Pascal Coenen" wrote on Tue, 4 Jul 2017 11:58:08 -0700:

It costed a lot of money but I did this because it was with lifetime free upgrades, I felt safe

Take this as a lesson. Lifetime licenses are a major liability to a
company. While I have purchased some products with a lifetime
license, I am always very skeptical of such a company having good
longevity -- especially for something complex and in need of long term
maintenance.

It should not surprise anyone that a company who promised free service
for life for a one time fee eventually had to liquidate its
intellectual property assets and stop providing new updates. Sure,
some companies manage to do this, but most cannot, and the smart ones
don't try.

And a company would be crazy to acquire such liabilities as lifelong
support contracts along with that IP. It would just make no sense,
and would mean the product would just die.

Maybe some people think it would "only be fair" for a company to buy
the IP and be forced to also acquire the liabilities of the service
contracts, but that would only mean nobody would want to take on the
property at all and it would die, once the company that offered such
an ill-advised support package went out of business.

--
Brandon Staggs
StudyLamp Software LLC
http://www.studylamp.com
Zoran M

Posts: 11
Registered: 11/2/08
Re: Eldos SecureBlackbox [Edit]
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  Posted: Aug 2, 2017 2:06 PM   in response to: Brandon Staggs in response to: Brandon Staggs
Brandon Staggs wrote:

"Pascal Coenen" wrote on Tue, 4 Jul 2017 11:58:08 -0700:

And a company would be crazy to acquire such liabilities as lifelong
support contracts along with that IP.

I agree. But, if I was in /n software shoes, I would provide life-time
licensees at least one year of free support as a curtesy.
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