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Thread: Paying for Bug Fixing



Permlink Replies: 772 - Last Post: May 21, 2015 6:11 AM Last Post By: Rudy Velthuis (...
Nick Hodges

Posts: 2,414
Registered: 9/22/99
Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 23, 2015 2:08 PM
This ought to elicit a few comments.

http://www.codingindelphi.com/blog/you-are-going-to-pay-for-bug-fixes-and-youre-going-to-like-it/

--
Nick
Delphi Programming is Fun
Mike Margerum

Posts: 590
Registered: 12/1/99
Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 23, 2015 2:29 PM   in response to: Nick Hodges in response to: Nick Hodges
On 4/23/15 5:08 PM, Nick Hodges wrote:
Nice writeup Nick and agree with all of it. I wish EMB would just go
sub only at this point.
Nick Hodges

Posts: 2,414
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 23, 2015 2:30 PM   in response to: Mike Margerum in response to: Mike Margerum
Mike Margerum wrote:

Nice writeup Nick and agree with all of it. I wish EMB would just go
sub only at this point.

Thanks -- not the comment I was expecting. ;-)

--
Nick
Delphi Programming is Fun
Quentin Correll


Posts: 2,412
Registered: 12/1/99
Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 23, 2015 2:31 PM   in response to: Nick Hodges in response to: Nick Hodges
Nick,

| This ought to elicit a few comments.
|

http://www.codingindelphi.com/blog/you-are-going-to-pay-for-bug-fixes-and-youre-going-to-like-it/

I'm speechless!

--

Q -- XanaNews 1.19.1.372 - 2015-04-23 14:31:21
Nick Hodges

Posts: 2,414
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 23, 2015 2:41 PM   in response to: Quentin Correll in response to: Quentin Correll
Quentin Correll wrote:

I'm speechless!

I take it you remain unconvinced? ;-)

--
Nick
Delphi Programming is Fun

Quentin Correll


Posts: 2,412
Registered: 12/1/99
Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 24, 2015 10:12 AM   in response to: Nick Hodges in response to: Nick Hodges
Nick,

| | I'm speechless!
|
| I take it you remain unconvinced? ;-)

At this point, yes. <g>

--

Q -- XanaNews 1.19.1.372 - 2015-04-24 10:11:40

Frederick Wilt

Posts: 38
Registered: 9/27/99
Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 24, 2015 11:20 AM   in response to: Quentin Correll in response to: Quentin Correll
{quote:title=Quentin Correll wrote:} ;-)

At this point, yes. <g>

It seems to me that companies are going to the subscription model because they see it as a more reliable source of income.

Especially if the can get away with shutting off your software if you stop paying. If they are not doing that now I believe they will. Applications will be like your water, gas, electricity, etc - something you have to continue to pay for.

The lure of never ending income is very powerful.
Nick Hodges

Posts: 2,414
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 24, 2015 12:23 PM   in response to: Frederick Wilt in response to: Frederick Wilt
Frederick Wilt wrote:

The lure of never ending income is very powerful.

It also has benefits for the customer.

--
Nick
Delphi Programming is Fun
Markus Humm

Posts: 5,113
Registered: 11/9/03
Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 25, 2015 7:36 AM   in response to: Nick Hodges in response to: Nick Hodges
Am 24.04.2015 um 21:23 schrieb Nick Hodges:
Frederick Wilt wrote:

The lure of never ending income is very powerful.

It also has benefits for the customer.

That the vendor can shut down your application when you no longer pay
instead of you just getting frozen at the last version received when
your subscription was still valid?

Greetings

Markus
Nick Hodges

Posts: 2,414
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 25, 2015 8:27 AM   in response to: Markus Humm in response to: Markus Humm
Markus Humm wrote:

That the vendor can shut down your application when you no longer pay
instead of you just getting frozen at the last version received when
your subscription was still valid?

Not sure of your point. If you agree to that deal, then why would you
complain when that happened?

If you don't like the specific terms of a given subscription model,
then don't agree to them.

--
Nick
Delphi Programming is Fun
Markus Humm

Posts: 5,113
Registered: 11/9/03
Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 25, 2015 8:44 AM   in response to: Nick Hodges in response to: Nick Hodges
Am 25.04.2015 um 17:27 schrieb Nick Hodges:
Markus Humm wrote:

That the vendor can shut down your application when you no longer pay
instead of you just getting frozen at the last version received when
your subscription was still valid?

Not sure of your point. If you agree to that deal, then why would you
complain when that happened?

If you don't like the specific terms of a given subscription model,
then don't agree to them.

Hello,

if the subscription had such terms and a user has no use for the newer
features but the old ones are good enough it doesn't benefit the user.
he has to maintain a subscription for something which doesn't bring
anything new for him he needs. But quitting would mean to seek for
another solution to provide the same feature set the customer needs as
in such a model the software can no longer be used at all. And that
would be bad. The user would be paying for stuff he didn't request for.

Greetings

Markus
Nick Hodges

Posts: 2,414
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 25, 2015 10:00 AM   in response to: Markus Humm in response to: Markus Humm
Markus Humm wrote:

if the subscription had such terms and a user has no use for the newer
features but the old ones are good enough it doesn't benefit the user.
he has to maintain a subscription for something which doesn't bring
anything new for him he needs. But quitting would mean to seek for
another solution to provide the same feature set the customer needs as
in such a model the software can no longer be used at all. And that
would be bad. The user would be paying for stuff he didn't request
for.

Okay, if the user views it that way, then don't buy the subscription.
It's a free country, as we like to say.

It's not clear to me what point you are trying to make.

--
Nick
Delphi Programming is Fun

Quentin Correll


Posts: 2,412
Registered: 12/1/99
Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 27, 2015 10:54 AM   in response to: Nick Hodges in response to: Nick Hodges
Nick,

| It's not clear to me what point you are trying to make.

Perhaps my reply to Markus can help you see his point.

--

Q -- XanaNews 1.19.1.372 - 2015-04-27 10:53:31
Nick Hodges

Posts: 2,414
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 25, 2015 2:48 PM   in response to: Markus Humm in response to: Markus Humm
Markus Humm wrote:

if the subscription had such terms and a user has no use for the newer
features but the old ones are good enough it doesn't benefit the user.
he has to maintain a subscription for something which doesn't bring
anything new for him he needs. But quitting would mean to seek for
another solution to provide the same feature set the customer needs as
in such a model the software can no longer be used at all. And that
would be bad. The user would be paying for stuff he didn't request
for.

Okay, if the user views it that way, then don't buy the subscription.
It's a free country, as we like to say.

It's not clear to me what point you are trying to make.

--
Nick
Delphi Programming is Fun

Markus Humm

Posts: 5,113
Registered: 11/9/03
Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 27, 2015 10:44 AM   in response to: Nick Hodges in response to: Nick Hodges
Am 25.04.2015 um 23:48 schrieb Nick Hodges:
Markus Humm wrote:

if the subscription had such terms and a user has no use for the newer
features but the old ones are good enough it doesn't benefit the user.
he has to maintain a subscription for something which doesn't bring
anything new for him he needs. But quitting would mean to seek for
another solution to provide the same feature set the customer needs as
in such a model the software can no longer be used at all. And that
would be bad. The user would be paying for stuff he didn't request
for.

Okay, if the user views it that way, then don't buy the subscription.
It's a free country, as we like to say.

It's not clear to me what point you are trying to make.


The point is: if in the furture a subscription only model should be in
place where the software stops to work as soon as the subscription
elapsed, the user might be paying for stuff he has no use for as he
needs to keep his subscription alive just to be able to use that portion
of the software which would already be sufficient for him.
=> he pays more in that scenario in the long run. The only thing he
might get with his subscription which would benefit him is bug fixes for
issues introduced with new OS versions. But that's a gamble as it's not
klnown before if any OS update will need such a fix at all.

Greetings

Markus
Nick Hodges

Posts: 2,414
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 27, 2015 10:57 AM   in response to: Markus Humm in response to: Markus Humm
Markus Humm wrote:

The point is: if in the furture a subscription only model should be in
place where the software stops to work as soon as the subscription
elapsed, the user might be paying for stuff he has no use for as he
needs to keep his subscription alive just to be able to use that
portion of the software which would already be sufficient for him.

Yes, if that is what a developer agrees to, sure.

=> he pays more in that scenario in the long run. The only thing he
might get with his subscription which would benefit him is bug fixes
for issues introduced with new OS versions. But that's a gamble as
it's not klnown before if any OS update will need such a fix at all.

I suppose.

--
Nick
Delphi Programming is Fun
Quentin Correll


Posts: 2,412
Registered: 12/1/99
Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 27, 2015 10:53 AM   in response to: Markus Humm in response to: Markus Humm
Markus,

I agree with you completely. If I purchase a product I expect THAT
product to CONTINUE to work regardless of new versions, updates, fixes,
etc.,.

I do NOT purchase products that require subscription payments to
continue to function. Period!!!

--

Q -- XanaNews 1.19.1.372 - 2015-04-27 10:50:20
Nick Hodges

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Registered: 9/22/99
Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 27, 2015 12:27 PM   in response to: Quentin Correll in response to: Quentin Correll
Quentin Correll wrote:

I agree with you completely. If I purchase a product I expect THAT
product to CONTINUE to work regardless of new versions, updates,
fixes, etc.,.

I do NOT purchase products that require subscription payments to
continue to function. Period!!!

And you are perfectly free to reject such products, just as companies
are perfectly free to offer them.

--
Nick
Delphi Programming is Fun
Quentin Correll


Posts: 2,412
Registered: 12/1/99
Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 27, 2015 2:08 PM   in response to: Nick Hodges in response to: Nick Hodges
Nick,

| And you are perfectly free to reject such products, just as companies
| are perfectly free to offer them.

Yep!

--

Q -- XanaNews 1.19.1.372 - 2015-04-27 14:08:23
V. Subhash

Posts: 7
Registered: 12/6/07
Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: May 12, 2015 9:41 PM   in response to: Nick Hodges in response to: Nick Hodges
And you are perfectly free to reject such products, just as companies
are perfectly free to offer them.

Are there any companies or products that work like this? Stops
functioning if subscription is not renewed? Except for cloud stuff,
nobody would buy into such terms.

--
V. Subhash

Tom Brunberg

Posts: 329
Registered: 12/27/04
Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: May 13, 2015 1:38 AM   in response to: V. Subhash in response to: V. Subhash
V. Subhash wrote:

And you are perfectly free to reject such products, just as companies
are perfectly free to offer them.

Are there any companies or products that work like this? Stops
functioning if subscription is not renewed? Except for cloud stuff,
nobody would buy into such terms.


Oh yes! Look no further than Emb. AppMethod. It stops working if you let the subscription run out.
I wonder how many have stepped on that mine without knowing.

--
Tom Brunberg
firstname.lastname@welho.com
Tom Brunberg

Posts: 329
Registered: 12/27/04
Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: May 13, 2015 1:44 AM   in response to: Tom Brunberg in response to: Tom Brunberg
Tom Brunberg wrote:

V. Subhash wrote:

And you are perfectly free to reject such products, just as companies
are perfectly free to offer them.

Are there any companies or products that work like this? Stops
functioning if subscription is not renewed? Except for cloud stuff,
nobody would buy into such terms.


Oh yes! Look no further than Emb. AppMethod. It stops working if you let the subscription run out.
I wonder how many have stepped on that mine without knowing.

And here is the confirmation by JT (Emb. employee):
http://community.embarcadero.com/index.php/forum/tools/142-1-year-subscription

--
Tom Brunberg
firstname.lastname@welho.com
Bruce McGee

Posts: 1,716
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Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: May 14, 2015 10:37 AM   in response to: Tom Brunberg in response to: Tom Brunberg
Tom Brunberg wrote:

V. Subhash wrote:

And you are perfectly free to reject such products, just as
companies are perfectly free to offer them.

Are there any companies or products that work like this? Stops
functioning if subscription is not renewed? Except for cloud stuff,
nobody would buy into such terms.


Oh yes! Look no further than Emb. AppMethod. It stops working if you
let the subscription run out. I wonder how many have stepped on that
mine without knowing.

Or Visual Studio Online, which has similar pricing to Appmethod.

I seem to remember something about a perpetual option with Appmethod,
but at that point, you're probably better off going with Rad Studio,
which also doesn't expire and has more features.

Xamarin tried to end their perpetual licensing, but changed their minds
after push back from customers.

--
Regards,
Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
Rudy Velthuis (...


Posts: 7,731
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Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: May 13, 2015 3:06 AM   in response to: V. Subhash in response to: V. Subhash
V. Subhash wrote:

Are there any companies or products that work like this? Stops
functioning if subscription is not renewed? Except for cloud stuff,
nobody would buy into such terms.

What about, say, Adobe Photoshop, Illustrator, etc.? The suite is
called Creative Cloud now, and it has such a subscription model.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Testing proves the presence, not the absence, of bugs."
-- Edsger Dijkstra
Nick Hodges

Posts: 2,414
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: May 13, 2015 6:09 AM   in response to: V. Subhash in response to: V. Subhash
V. Subhash wrote:

Are there any companies or products that work like this? Stops
functioning if subscription is not renewed? Except for cloud stuff,
nobody would buy into such terms.

Yes, some companies work like that, and people do by such products.

--
Nick
Delphi Programming is Fun
Van Swofford

Posts: 397
Registered: 6/28/03
Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: May 13, 2015 7:51 AM   in response to: Nick Hodges in response to: Nick Hodges
Nick Hodges wrote:

V. Subhash wrote:

Are there any companies or products that work like this? Stops
functioning if subscription is not renewed? Except for cloud stuff,
nobody would buy into such terms.

Yes, some companies work like that, and people do by such products.

My app is sold in that fashion. However, the subscription includes a
worldwide airport database that is updated every 28 days, as well as
airplane flight manual data that are updated by the manufacturer from
time to time. So in this case, the users wouldn't want to use the
software without it being current, nor would I be willing to allow it,
for liability reasons. In 17 years on the market, nobody has yet
brought that up as a negative issue.

So, it depends on the particulars of the product and market as to what
sort of sales approach is appropriate.

--
Cheers,
Van

"Good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad
judgment." - Will Rogers
Dan Barclay

Posts: 889
Registered: 11/9/03
Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: May 13, 2015 10:14 AM   in response to: Van Swofford in response to: Van Swofford
Van Swofford wrote:
Nick Hodges wrote:

V. Subhash wrote:

Are there any companies or products that work like this? Stops
functioning if subscription is not renewed? Except for cloud stuff,
nobody would buy into such terms.

Yes, some companies work like that, and people do by such products.

My app is sold in that fashion. However, the subscription includes a
worldwide airport database that is updated every 28 days, as well as
airplane flight manual data that are updated by the manufacturer from
time to time. So in this case, the users wouldn't want to use the
software without it being current, nor would I be willing to allow it,
for liability reasons. In 17 years on the market, nobody has yet
brought that up as a negative issue.

So, it depends on the particulars of the product and market as to what
sort of sales approach is appropriate.

Interesting. Which product is that?

I use a similar product (ForeFlight) with US charts, but I'm pretty sure it will continue to function (with out of date chart warnings) if the charts are not updated. I'm not certain, but I don't believe they provide worldwide charting so I presume that's not your product.

I haven't tried to confirm they don't disappear because, as you have pointed out, up to date charts are the more "healthy" option and I keep my database current!

The only thing worse than out of date charts is no charts. I simply won't fly with charts that may disappear on me (other than physical failure, for which there is a backup). With software/database shutdown the probability of simultaneous failure is very high, with physical failure very low. If my last transmission over mountainous terrain is that my chart software shut itself down on purpose I'm fairly sure representatives of my heirs would want to talk to the vendor about liability.

Even my panel mounted (Certified) GPS's will continue to function with a database expired. It presents a warning, but won't leave me in the air without the ability to pull up old data. Clue: Airports and mountains don't move much.

The issue isn't whether somebody sitting in front of a computer "will allow it", when you are PIC you make decisions based on the most safe option at that moment.

Dan <leaving here to confirm ForeFlight does not do what you describe>
Van Swofford

Posts: 397
Registered: 6/28/03
Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: May 13, 2015 12:19 PM   in response to: Dan Barclay in response to: Dan Barclay
Dan Barclay wrote:

Van Swofford wrote:
Nick Hodges wrote:

V. Subhash wrote:

Are there any companies or products that work like this? Stops
functioning if subscription is not renewed? Except for cloud
stuff, nobody would buy into such terms.

Yes, some companies work like that, and people do by such
products.

My app is sold in that fashion. However, the subscription includes
a worldwide airport database that is updated every 28 days, as well
as airplane flight manual data that are updated by the manufacturer
from time to time. So in this case, the users wouldn't want to use
the software without it being current, nor would I be willing to
allow it, for liability reasons. In 17 years on the market, nobody
has yet brought that up as a negative issue.

So, it depends on the particulars of the product and market as to
what sort of sales approach is appropriate.

Interesting. Which product is that?

I use a similar product (ForeFlight) with US charts, but I'm pretty
sure it will continue to function (with out of date chart warnings)
if the charts are not updated. I'm not certain, but I don't believe
they provide worldwide charting so I presume that's not your product.

I haven't tried to confirm they don't disappear because, as you have
pointed out, up to date charts are the more "healthy" option and I
keep my database current!

The only thing worse than out of date charts is no charts. I simply
won't fly with charts that may disappear on me (other than physical
failure, for which there is a backup). With software/database
shutdown the probability of simultaneous failure is very high, with
physical failure very low. If my last transmission over mountainous
terrain is that my chart software shut itself down on purpose I'm
fairly sure representatives of my heirs would want to talk to the
vendor about liability.

Even my panel mounted (Certified) GPS's will continue to function
with a database expired. It presents a warning, but won't leave me
in the air without the ability to pull up old data. Clue: Airports
and mountains don't move much.

The issue isn't whether somebody sitting in front of a computer "will
allow it", when you are PIC you make decisions based on the most safe
option at that moment.

Dan <leaving here to confirm ForeFlight does not do what you describe>

Hi Dan,

My software is called AFMatic (www.tybeejet.com), and provides takeoff
and landing performance, as well as weight & balance and a few other
performance-related features, for Gulfstream corporate jets. There are
no charts involved, but it uses Jeppesen's NavData airport data, which
is updated on the standard charting cycle. Probably around 5% of the
runways in the database get updated each time, and of course, the trick
is, you don't know which runways will have changes in any given month,
so having it up to date is really important, especially for an airplane
that uses a lot of runway to get airborne.

Typically, AFMatic will be used in the planning process for a trip, but
isn't needed during flight, since all of the airplanes built since 1986
have a performance computer in the panel that can do takeoff and
landing calculations. So it usually isn't a big deal when the
subscription runs out. They get invoiced for renewals a month ahead of
renewal date, and I set the expiration date for the program to 3 months
after that in order to give them some leeway in the event there is a
delay in getting their subscription renewed. So far, 17 years, the
subscription plan has worked well, knock on genuine simulated imitation
wood-like formica.

--
Cheers,
Van

"Good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad
judgment." - Will Rogers
Dan Barclay

Posts: 889
Registered: 11/9/03
Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: May 13, 2015 3:07 PM   in response to: Van Swofford in response to: Van Swofford
Van Swofford wrote:

My software is called AFMatic (www.tybeejet.com), and provides takeoff
and landing performance, as well as weight & balance and a few other
performance-related features, for Gulfstream corporate jets. There are
no charts involved, but it uses Jeppesen's NavData airport data, which
is updated on the standard charting cycle. Probably around 5% of the
runways in the database get updated each time, and of course, the trick
is, you don't know which runways will have changes in any given month,
so having it up to date is really important, especially for an airplane
that uses a lot of runway to get airborne.

Typically, AFMatic will be used in the planning process for a trip, but
isn't needed during flight, since all of the airplanes built since 1986
have a performance computer in the panel that can do takeoff and
landing calculations. So it usually isn't a big deal when the
subscription runs out. They get invoiced for renewals a month ahead of
renewal date, and I set the expiration date for the program to 3 months
after that in order to give them some leeway in the event there is a
delay in getting their subscription renewed. So far, 17 years, the
subscription plan has worked well, knock on genuine simulated imitation
wood-like formica.

I could live with that on a flight planning tool. In particular, one for takeoff parameters is not likely to be critical after takeoff.

Something for cockpit use, not so much. This discussion has caused me to research specifics on Foreflight, just in case I've missed something. There are enough things that can divide my attention due to normal randomness, it makes no sense at all to have something do that on purpose.

I carried about 30lb of paper charts onboard for a long time after I switched to electronic "just in case". They were out of date, but I could confirm differences with ATC if needed. I hope I don't convince myself to consider that again.

Dan
Graeme Geldenhuys

Posts: 152
Registered: 5/25/01
Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 28, 2015 6:11 AM   in response to: Quentin Correll in response to: Quentin Correll
On 2015-04-27 18:53, Quentin Correll wrote:
I do NOT purchase products that require subscription payments to
continue to function. Period!!!

+1000

I fully agree with that too.

Regards,
Graeme
Gilbert Padilla

Posts: 315
Registered: 3/8/04
Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 28, 2015 8:37 AM   in response to: Quentin Correll in response to: Quentin Correll
I do NOT purchase products that require subscription payments to
continue to function. Period!!!

Thats the reason I still use Adobe CS3 and keep my subscription to clipart
factory.

Joseph Mitzen

Posts: 392
Registered: 6/9/02
Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 24, 2015 1:11 PM   in response to: Frederick Wilt in response to: Frederick Wilt
Frederick Wilt wrote:
{quote:title=Quentin Correll wrote:} ;-)

At this point, yes. <g>

It seems to me that companies are going to the subscription model

Companies aren't going to the subscription model. From Microsoft Visual Studio to Unreal Engine, they're going to the "free for personal and non-enterprise use" model. Most of everything else is going open source. Delphi is practically the only commercial, proprietary language product left in existence at this point.
Rudy Velthuis (...


Posts: 7,731
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: May 11, 2015 2:38 PM   in response to: Joseph Mitzen in response to: Joseph Mitzen
Joseph Mitzen wrote:

Companies aren't going to the subscription model. From Microsoft
Visual Studio to Unreal Engine, they're going to the "free for
personal and non-enterprise use" model.

Yeah, but most professional buyers will be using it for business code.
And yes, many companies are (IMO, unfortunately) going into the
subscription model.
--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"They never open their mouths without subtracting from the
sum of human knowledge." -- Thomas Brackett Reed
Quentin Correll


Posts: 2,412
Registered: 12/1/99
Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 27, 2015 10:49 AM   in response to: Frederick Wilt in response to: Frederick Wilt
Frederick,

| It seems to me that companies are going to the subscription model
| because they see it as a more reliable source of income.

I agree. MONEY is the ultimate consideration. Without a "steady"
revenue source companies cannot remain in business.

--

Q -- XanaNews 1.19.1.372 - 2015-04-27 10:48:08
Bruce McGee

Posts: 1,716
Registered: 9/30/99
Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 27, 2015 12:54 PM   in response to: Quentin Correll in response to: Quentin Correll
Quentin Correll wrote:

Frederick,

It seems to me that companies are going to the subscription model
because they see it as a more reliable source of income.

I agree. MONEY is the ultimate consideration. Without a "steady"
revenue source companies cannot remain in business.

Money is THEIR ultimate consideration.

People keep ignoring the other side of the equation, which is MY
ultimate considerations(s). For example, I'm cheap.

They can't sell for more than I'm willing to pay and I can't demand
more than they can be reasonably expected to provide.

There has to be some balance in order for this to work.

--
Regards,
Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
Quentin Correll


Posts: 2,412
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Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 27, 2015 2:10 PM   in response to: Bruce McGee in response to: Bruce McGee
Bruce,

| People keep ignoring the other side of the equation, which is MY
| ultimate considerations(s). For example, I'm cheap.

<chuckle> Me too. ;-)

| They can't sell for more than I'm willing to pay and I can't demand
| more than they can be reasonably expected to provide.

| There has to be some balance in order for this to work.

Yep.

--

Q -- XanaNews 1.19.1.372 - 2015-04-27 14:09:02

Adem Meda

Posts: 495
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Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 23, 2015 3:20 PM   in response to: Nick Hodges in response to: Nick Hodges
Nick Hodges wrote:

This ought to elicit a few comments.

It was a fine article as usual.

Here is the executive summary I walked away from it with:

You, the customer, will be violated at whim and we'll call it 'economics of the
marketplace'.
Nick Hodges

Posts: 2,414
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 24, 2015 5:08 AM   in response to: Adem Meda in response to: Adem Meda
Adem Meda wrote:


You, the customer, will be violated at whim and we'll call it
'economics of the marketplace'.

LOL -- that's pretty funny. ;-)

I love how people assume that companies are out to "violate" customers.

Companies are in the business of providing what customers want, not the
other way around.

--
Nick
Delphi Programming is Fun
Quentin Correll


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Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 24, 2015 10:15 AM   in response to: Nick Hodges in response to: Nick Hodges
Nick,

| Companies are in the business of providing what customers want, not
| the other way around.

Nope! It's been my experience that companies are out to make money,
anyway they can, REGARDLESS of what the customers "want!"

--

Q -- XanaNews 1.19.1.372 - 2015-04-24 10:12:23
Dalija Prasnikar

Posts: 2,325
Registered: 11/9/99
Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 24, 2015 10:38 AM   in response to: Quentin Correll in response to: Quentin Correll
Quentin Correll wrote:
Nick,

| Companies are in the business of providing what customers want, not
| the other way around.

Nope! It's been my experience that companies are out to make money,
anyway they can, REGARDLESS of what the customers "want!"

Absolutely...

--
Dalija Prasnikar
Nick Hodges

Posts: 2,414
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Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 24, 2015 11:21 AM   in response to: Dalija Prasnikar in response to: Dalija Prasnikar
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:


Absolutely...

That's silly. How, exactly, do you make money providing things
customers don't want?

--
Nick
Delphi Programming is Fun
Daniel Sox

Posts: 7
Registered: 3/2/04
Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 24, 2015 3:48 PM   in response to: Nick Hodges in response to: Nick Hodges
Do you have cable television? Can you get just the channels you want?

"Nick Hodges" wrote in message news:721605 at forums dot embarcadero dot com...

Dalija Prasnikar wrote:


Absolutely...

That's silly. How, exactly, do you make money providing things
customers don't want?

--
Nick
Delphi Programming is Fun
Gilbert Padilla

Posts: 315
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Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 24, 2015 5:28 PM   in response to: Daniel Sox in response to: Daniel Sox
That's silly. How, exactly, do you make money providing things
customers don't want?

Providing unwanted bugs?
Nick Hodges

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Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 25, 2015 3:32 AM   in response to: Gilbert Padilla in response to: Gilbert Padilla
Gilbert Padilla wrote:

Providing unwanted bugs?

How does that possibly make things better for a software company?

--
Nick
Delphi Programming is Fun
Gilbert Padilla

Posts: 315
Registered: 3/8/04
Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 25, 2015 7:40 PM   in response to: Nick Hodges in response to: Nick Hodges
How does that possibly make things better for a software company?

If income is solely based on bug fixing then at some point there would not
be enough bugs to make sufficient income. Also I think most software
packages that are adopting the subscription model are so mature that do not
have too many new features or improvements to offer. They are repackaged
with new GUI's but the features are about the same.
Nick Hodges

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Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 26, 2015 4:36 AM   in response to: Gilbert Padilla in response to: Gilbert Padilla
Gilbert Padilla wrote:

If income is solely based on bug fixing

There isn't a company in the world for which that is true, so your
whole point is, well, sorry -- silly.


--
Nick
Delphi Programming is Fun

Gilbert Padilla

Posts: 315
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Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 27, 2015 6:53 AM   in response to: Nick Hodges in response to: Nick Hodges
There isn't a company in the world for which that is true, so your
whole point is, well, sorry -- silly.

well, for marketing purposes we can mask bug fixes as new feature, just
saying < ;-) >

Nick Hodges

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Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 25, 2015 3:24 AM   in response to: Daniel Sox in response to: Daniel Sox
Daniel Sox wrote:


Do you have cable television? Can you get just the channels you want?

Sadly, no. But I've looked into this, and it would actually cost more
for cable companies to charge a al carte pricing. I think the break
even point was like three stations.

But customers want cable bundles. They certainly order them enough.

--
Nick
Delphi Programming is Fun
Markus Humm

Posts: 5,113
Registered: 11/9/03
Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 25, 2015 7:39 AM   in response to: Nick Hodges in response to: Nick Hodges
Am 25.04.2015 um 12:24 schrieb Nick Hodges:
Daniel Sox wrote:


Do you have cable television? Can you get just the channels you want?

Sadly, no. But I've looked into this, and it would actually cost more
for cable companies to charge a al carte pricing. I think the break
even point was like three stations.

But customers want cable bundles. They certainly order them enough.

Hello,

I'm not sure why they order the bundles. Is it maybe because there is no
other offer and they buy that before not having anything?

Greetings

Markus
Brandon Staggs

Posts: 683
Registered: 3/3/01
Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 25, 2015 9:21 AM   in response to: Markus Humm in response to: Markus Humm
"Markus Humm" wrote on Sat, 25 Apr 2015 07:39:11 -0700:

I'm not sure why they order the bundles. Is it maybe because there is no
other offer and they buy that before not having anything?

In the USA, cable companies are government-enforced monopolies. While
there is a small amount of competition that the cable companies have
with satellite television providers, the fact that nobody is allowed
to compete with cable companies for a similar service (satellite being
subject to weather variations, etc) means that there is no valid
comparison to be made.

Embarcadero is competing with boatloads of free options for virtually
everything they offer with RAD Studio, to say nothing of the other
commercial options. If they are not providing something people want,
how is it that they are still in business?

--
Brandon Staggs
StudyLamp Software LLC
http://www.studylamp.com
Markus Humm

Posts: 5,113
Registered: 11/9/03
Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 27, 2015 10:47 AM   in response to: Brandon Staggs in response to: Brandon Staggs
Am 25.04.2015 um 18:21 schrieb Brandon Staggs:
"Markus Humm" wrote on Sat, 25 Apr 2015 07:39:11 -0700:

I'm not sure why they order the bundles. Is it maybe because there is no
other offer and they buy that before not having anything?

In the USA, cable companies are government-enforced monopolies. While
there is a small amount of competition that the cable companies have
with satellite television providers, the fact that nobody is allowed
to compete with cable companies for a similar service (satellite being
subject to weather variations, etc) means that there is no valid
comparison to be made.

Embarcadero is competing with boatloads of free options for virtually
everything they offer with RAD Studio, to say nothing of the other
commercial options. If they are not providing something people want,
how is it that they are still in business?

Hello,

I cannot choose my cable provider in Germany either.
I have the following options here:
- cable: you cannot choose which provider you buy that one from
- satellite
- DVB-T in areas where you have coverage, but number of channels is
quite limited and no HD yet
- IPTV if your internet connection is fast enough (which is mostly
in cities)

Greetings

Markus
Brandon Staggs

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Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 27, 2015 11:33 AM   in response to: Markus Humm in response to: Markus Humm
"Markus Humm" wrote on Mon, 27 Apr 2015 10:47:50 -0700:

I cannot choose my cable provider in Germany either.

Right, so anyway, my only point was that a comparison with cable TV
"bundling" is not a very reasonable one. Cable TV companies don't
compete with each other and therefore the "menu" is not much more than
"take it or leave it." I left it. :-)

--
Brandon Staggs
StudyLamp Software LLC
http://www.studylamp.com
Keld Hansen

Posts: 2
Registered: 9/6/01
Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 28, 2015 4:08 AM   in response to: Nick Hodges in response to: Nick Hodges
Nick Hodges wrote:

Daniel Sox wrote:

Do you have cable television? Can you get just the channels you want?

Sadly, no. But I've looked into this, and it would actually cost more
for cable companies to charge a al carte pricing.

[OFF TOPIC]:

In Denmark, the largest cable company has begun delivering channels (almost) a la carte, in the sense, that you can choose ANY combination of channels (except premium channels) as extra 10, 20 or 39 channels (on top of the basic 25 channels subscription) among the 100+ channels available. The price will be the same, regardless of what channels you pick, and are the same as the standardized 35 and 64 channel packages.

The advantage with the standardized packages is that they are unencrypted (thus not needing a card in every receiver), whereas in the a la carte packages the extra channels are encrypted, so you need a card in each receiver. But the subscription price is the same.

So - it is possible to do (almost) a la carte channels for cable companies...

[/OFF TOPIC]
Graeme Geldenhuys

Posts: 152
Registered: 5/25/01
Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 28, 2015 6:13 AM   in response to: Daniel Sox in response to: Daniel Sox
On 2015-04-24 23:48, Daniel Sox wrote:
Do you have cable television? Can you get just the channels you want?

LOL. Brilliant example, and absolutely true.

G.
Soeren Muehlbauer

Posts: 26
Registered: 11/29/99
Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 27, 2015 2:40 AM   in response to: Nick Hodges in response to: Nick Hodges
Hi,


Absolutely...

That's silly. How, exactly, do you make money providing things
customers don't want?

Vendor lock-in. Delphi is a very good example for that. Customers
invested much money for their current code base. You cant simply switch
to an other tool. There are other businesses where the customer is free
to choose a different model of a company or choose a completly different
car company.

Soeren
Nick Hodges

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Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 27, 2015 6:10 AM   in response to: Soeren Muehlbauer in response to: Soeren Muehlbauer
Soeren Muehlbauer wrote:

Vendor lock-in. Delphi is a very good example for that. Customers
invested much money for their current code base. You cant simply
switch to an other tool. There are other businesses where the
customer is free to choose a different model of a company or choose a
completly different car company.

Ooops, not you did it.

https://twitter.com/nickhodges/status/32080187210342400

--
Nick
Delphi Programming is Fun

Soeren Muehlbauer

Posts: 26
Registered: 11/29/99
Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 28, 2015 12:14 AM   in response to: Nick Hodges in response to: Nick Hodges
Hi,

Vendor lock-in. Delphi is a very good example for that. Customers
invested much money for their current code base. You cant simply
switch to an other tool. There are other businesses where the
customer is free to choose a different model of a company or choose a
completly different car company.

Ooops, not you did it.

No. I was referring to the customers POV. I have not written anything
about the software development process. In the car industry the
manufacturer is not able to lock in a customer as software companies
can. That's the point. But i'm not too surprised that you arguing in
that way.

Soeren
Nick Hodges

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Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 24, 2015 11:21 AM   in response to: Quentin Correll in response to: Quentin Correll
Quentin Correll wrote:

Nope! It's been my experience that companies are out to make money,
anyway they can, REGARDLESS of what the customers "want!"

How do make money providing things customers don't want?

--
Nick
Delphi Programming is Fun
Stefan Glienke

Posts: 601
Registered: 1/5/09
Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 24, 2015 5:56 PM   in response to: Nick Hodges in response to: Nick Hodges
Nope! It's been my experience that companies are out to make money,
anyway they can, REGARDLESS of what the customers "want!"

How do make money providing things customers don't want?

That my friend is called marketing.
Dalija Prasnikar

Posts: 2,325
Registered: 11/9/99
Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 25, 2015 1:29 AM   in response to: Stefan Glienke in response to: Stefan Glienke
Stefan Glienke wrote:
Nope! It's been my experience that companies are out to make money,
anyway they can, REGARDLESS of what the customers "want!"

How do make money providing things customers don't want?

That my friend is called marketing.

Grabs popcorn...
Adem Meda

Posts: 495
Registered: 12/28/98
Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 24, 2015 7:07 PM   in response to: Nick Hodges in response to: Nick Hodges
Nick Hodges wrote:

How do make money providing things customers don't want?

You really should read that blog article of yours.

It contains quite a few examples.
Nick Hodges

Posts: 2,414
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 25, 2015 3:25 AM   in response to: Adem Meda in response to: Adem Meda
Adem Meda wrote:

You really should read that blog article of yours.

It contains quite a few examples.

Sorry, you lost me.

--
Nick
Delphi Programming is Fun
Adem Meda

Posts: 495
Registered: 12/28/98
Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 26, 2015 4:40 AM   in response to: Nick Hodges in response to: Nick Hodges
Nick Hodges wrote:

Adem Meda wrote:

You really should read that blog article of yours.

It contains quite a few examples.

Sorry, you lost me.

Search your text for occurences of "like" and "market".

Those are where you're doing Orwellian doublespeak.
Nick Hodges

Posts: 2,414
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 26, 2015 4:52 AM   in response to: Adem Meda in response to: Adem Meda
Adem Meda wrote:

Those are where you're doing Orwellian doublespeak.

Aahh, Never mind.

--
Nick
Delphi Programming is Fun
Quentin Correll


Posts: 2,412
Registered: 12/1/99
Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 27, 2015 10:56 AM   in response to: Nick Hodges in response to: Nick Hodges
Nick,

| | Nope! It's been my experience that companies are out to make
| | money, anyway they can, REGARDLESS of what the customers "want!"

| How do make money providing things customers don't want?

It's a double-edged sword.

--

Q -- XanaNews 1.19.1.372 - 2015-04-27 10:55:34

Nick Hodges

Posts: 2,414
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 27, 2015 12:28 PM   in response to: Quentin Correll in response to: Quentin Correll
Quentin Correll wrote:

It's a double-edged sword.

Is it?

--
Nick
Delphi Programming is Fun
Quentin Correll


Posts: 2,412
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Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 27, 2015 2:11 PM   in response to: Nick Hodges in response to: Nick Hodges
Nick,

| | It's a double-edged sword.
|
| Is it?

I think so. Regardless of which side one is on there is the
possibility of getting cut.

--

Q -- XanaNews 1.19.1.372 - 2015-04-27 14:10:08
Markus Humm

Posts: 5,113
Registered: 11/9/03
Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 24, 2015 10:26 AM   in response to: Nick Hodges in response to: Nick Hodges
Am 24.04.2015 um 14:08 schrieb Nick Hodges:
Adem Meda wrote:


You, the customer, will be violated at whim and we'll call it
'economics of the marketplace'.

LOL -- that's pretty funny. ;-)

I love how people assume that companies are out to "violate" customers.

Companies are in the business of providing what customers want, not the
other way around.

Aha. Customers most of the time want all features they want in the
quality they want (most of the time best possible quality) and that to
nearly no cost for them. That's what customers usually want, except for
some special markets like luxury goods. But Delphi is not in such a market.

Greetings

Markus
Asbjørn Heid

Posts: 267
Registered: 11/12/12
Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 24, 2015 5:21 PM   in response to: Nick Hodges in response to: Nick Hodges
Nick Hodges wrote:
Companies are in the business of providing what customers want

No, companies are in the business of providing what customers will buy. Most of the time, that coincides with what the customer wants.

- Asbjørn
Nick Hodges

Posts: 2,414
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 25, 2015 3:25 AM   in response to: Asbjørn Heid in response to: Asbjørn Heid
Asbjørn Heid wrote:

No, companies are in the business of providing what customers will
buy. Most of the time, that coincides with what the customer wants.

Fair enough.

--
Nick
Delphi Programming is Fun
Bruce McGee

Posts: 1,716
Registered: 9/30/99
Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 23, 2015 3:27 PM   in response to: Nick Hodges in response to: Nick Hodges
Nick Hodges wrote:

This ought to elicit a few comments.

http://www.codingindelphi.com/blog/you-are-going-to-pay-for-bug-fixes-and-youre-going-to-like-it/

The "why do I have to pay for updates" argument has always been a red
herring.

The sooner Embarcadero moves to a purely subscription model, the better.

No expiring licenses, though.

--
Regards,
Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
Jeff Dyer

Posts: 33
Registered: 8/9/07
Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 24, 2015 2:01 AM   in response to: Bruce McGee in response to: Bruce McGee
No expiring licenses, though.

Everyone will sign up for 1 month and then unsubscribe until the next release.

Do you really think that will work?

Bruce McGee wrote:

The sooner Embarcadero moves to a purely subscription model, the better.

--
Regards,
Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software

Dalija Prasnikar

Posts: 2,325
Registered: 11/9/99
Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 24, 2015 2:46 AM   in response to: Jeff Dyer in response to: Jeff Dyer
Jeff Dyer wrote:
No expiring licenses, though.

Everyone will sign up for 1 month and then unsubscribe until the next release.

Do you really think that will work?

It would work if minimum subscription period is one year.

--
Dalija Prasnikar
Quentin Correll


Posts: 2,412
Registered: 12/1/99
Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 24, 2015 10:17 AM   in response to: Dalija Prasnikar in response to: Dalija Prasnikar
Dalija,

| It would work if minimum subscription period is one year.

Yes!

--

Q -- XanaNews 1.19.1.372 - 2015-04-24 10:16:51
Bruce McGee

Posts: 1,716
Registered: 9/30/99
Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 24, 2015 2:54 AM   in response to: Jeff Dyer in response to: Jeff Dyer
Jeff Dyer wrote:

No expiring licenses, though.

Everyone will sign up for 1 month and then unsubscribe until the next
release.

Right now, SA is expensive in the first year (upgrade price plus the
first year's SA renewal fee). In subsequent years, you just pay the
renewal fee, making it less expensive over time.

Even if the pricing changes, I assume there will still be some kind of
buy-in cost.

Most subscriptions work this way.

Do you really think that will work?

Yes.

--
Regards,
Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
Quentin Correll


Posts: 2,412
Registered: 12/1/99
Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 24, 2015 10:16 AM   in response to: Jeff Dyer in response to: Jeff Dyer
Jeff,

| Everyone will sign up for 1 month and then unsubscribe until the next
| release.

| Do you really think that will work?

Huh?! Subscriptions should be one year, NOT one month!!! (???)

--

Q -- XanaNews 1.19.1.372 - 2015-04-24 10:15:57

Frederick Wilt

Posts: 38
Registered: 9/27/99
Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 24, 2015 11:21 AM   in response to: Jeff Dyer in response to: Jeff Dyer
Jeff Dyer wrote:
No expiring licenses, though.

Everyone will sign up for 1 month and then unsubscribe until the next release.

Do you really think that will work?

That won't be allowed.
Brandon Staggs

Posts: 683
Registered: 3/3/01
Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 24, 2015 11:36 AM   in response to: Jeff Dyer in response to: Jeff Dyer
"Jeff Dyer" wrote on Fri, 24 Apr 2015 02:01:39 -0700:

No expiring licenses, though.

Everyone will sign up for 1 month and then unsubscribe until the next release.

Do you really think that will work?

It would be foolish to give the option of a single month subscription
that comes with a perpetual license. One year would make sense, or
non-perpetual use.

--
Brandon Staggs
StudyLamp Software LLC
http://www.studylamp.com
Bruce McGee

Posts: 1,716
Registered: 9/30/99
Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 24, 2015 1:38 PM   in response to: Jeff Dyer in response to: Jeff Dyer
Jeff Dyer wrote:

No expiring licenses, though.

Everyone will sign up for 1 month and then unsubscribe until the next
release.

Right now, SA is expensive in the first year (upgrade price plus the
first year's SA renewal fee). In subsequent years, you just pay the
renewal fee, making it less expensive over time.

Even if the pricing changes, I assume there will still be some kind of
buy-in cost.

Most subscriptions work this way.

Do you really think that will work?

Yes.

--
Regards,
Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
Ole Ekerhovd

Posts: 50
Registered: 2/20/03
Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 24, 2015 12:25 PM   in response to: Bruce McGee in response to: Bruce McGee
It will expire.

The next thing will be a subscription fee + download fee.

It's all about making more money.

Ole


No expiring licenses, though.
Bruce McGee

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  Posted: Apr 24, 2015 1:39 PM   in response to: Ole Ekerhovd in response to: Ole Ekerhovd
Ole Ekerhovd wrote:

It will expire.

The next thing will be a subscription fee + download fee.

I doubt it.

It's all about making more money.

They should be a charity?

--
Regards,
Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
Ole Ekerhovd

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  Posted: Apr 24, 2015 8:22 PM   in response to: Bruce McGee in response to: Bruce McGee
I don't doubt it :)

There will be a subscription fee, a download fee and a new maintenance fee.

Why? With a fixed price model the income is fixed, and you have to come up with new ways to make more money.

Ole


The next thing will be a subscription fee + download fee.

I doubt it.
Nick Hodges

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  Posted: Apr 25, 2015 3:26 AM   in response to: Ole Ekerhovd in response to: Ole Ekerhovd
Ole Ekerhovd wrote:


Why? With a fixed price model the income is fixed, and you have to
come up with new ways to make more money.

That way is usually to increase the customer base.

They can't charge whatever they want. They can only charge what the
market will bear.

--
Nick
Delphi Programming is Fun
Bruce McGee

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  Posted: Apr 25, 2015 9:13 AM   in response to: Ole Ekerhovd in response to: Ole Ekerhovd
Ole Ekerhovd wrote:

I don't doubt it :)

There will be a subscription fee, a download fee and a new
maintenance fee.

Why? With a fixed price model the income is fixed, and you have to
come up with new ways to make more money.

Sounds like scaremongering to me.

Delphi's subscription has been a (really) good thing for many years,
and I have been hoping that they would move entirely to this model for
some time.

--
Regards,
Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
Nick Hodges

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  Posted: Apr 24, 2015 2:06 PM   in response to: Ole Ekerhovd in response to: Ole Ekerhovd
Ole Ekerhovd wrote:

It's all about making more money.

Yep, that's exactly what it is all about.

You say that like it's a bad thing.

--
Nick
Delphi Programming is Fun
Frederick Wilt

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Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 24, 2015 2:47 PM   in response to: Nick Hodges in response to: Nick Hodges
Nick Hodges wrote:
Ole Ekerhovd wrote:

It's all about making more money.

Yep, that's exactly what it is all about.

You say that like it's a bad thing.

--
Nick
Delphi Programming is Fun

Only when the goal becomes making more money at all costs. Look at those companies selling "snake oil" - solving problems that don't exist - that is the dark side of making money. I don't think that can quite happen in this field but Embarcadero has a bit of a history.
Nick Hodges

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  Posted: Apr 25, 2015 3:18 AM   in response to: Frederick Wilt in response to: Frederick Wilt
Frederick Wilt wrote:

Only when the goal becomes making more money at all costs.

What does that even mean?

It's ridiculous to imply that EMBT is selling snake oil.

--
Nick
Delphi Programming is Fun
Frederick Wilt

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  Posted: Apr 26, 2015 8:19 PM   in response to: Nick Hodges in response to: Nick Hodges
Nick Hodges wrote:
Frederick Wilt wrote:

Only when the goal becomes making more money at all costs.

What does that even mean?

It's ridiculous to imply that EMBT is selling snake oil.

--
Nick
Delphi Programming is Fun

You made a comment about making more money and asking if someone thought it was a bad thing.

It can become a "bad thing" when the desire for money leads the person or persons into unethical business practices such as selling "snake oil".

And I wasn't suggesting that EBMT was doing anything like that.

Just that I don't think you can make the blanket statement that making more money is always a good thing.
Nick Hodges

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  Posted: Apr 27, 2015 6:11 AM   in response to: Frederick Wilt in response to: Frederick Wilt
Frederick Wilt wrote:

It can become a "bad thing" when the desire for money leads the
person or persons into unethical business practices such as selling
"snake oil".

Agreed. It can. But why always leap right to the negative? Why not
realize that 99.9% of businesses don't sell snake oil?

Why do these conversations always devolve into talking about the 0.01%?

--
Nick
Delphi Programming is Fun

Frans van Daalen

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Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 24, 2015 2:55 PM   in response to: Nick Hodges in response to: Nick Hodges
Nick Hodges schreef op 24-4-2015 om 11:06:
Ole Ekerhovd wrote:

It's all about making more money.

Yep, that's exactly what it is all about.

You say that like it's a bad thing.

Yes because it should be about making "more" product which then as a
result generates more money. The sole objective should never be to make
more money!
Nick Hodges

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  Posted: Apr 25, 2015 3:18 AM   in response to: Frans van Daalen in response to: Frans van Daalen
Frans van Daalen wrote:

Yes because it should be about making "more" product which then as a
result generates more money. The sole objective should never be to
make more money!

Isn't that exactly what companies do?

--
Nick
Delphi Programming is Fun
Edmund Wong

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Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: May 7, 2015 5:53 PM   in response to: Nick Hodges in response to: Nick Hodges
Nick Hodges wrote:
Frans van Daalen wrote:

Yes because it should be about making "more" product which then as a
result generates more money. The sole objective should never be to
make more money!

Isn't that exactly what companies do?

Not really. Companies provide goods and/or services that customers want
and as a by product, this generates revenue.

So the main goal is to provide goods and/or services that customers
want. Its goal is not to generate revenue. If that is its case,
then they will just be spinning its wheels.

1) Provide goods and/or services that customers want to generate revenue

2) Generate revenue to provide goods and/or services that customers
want.

For 1), the priority is the customer. Generating revenue is secondary.
For 2), the priority is to generate revenue. Providing goods/services
that customers want is secondary.

Embarcadero's recent changes land it squarely in #2. Why?

Requiring customers to subscribe to SA in order to get updates/fixes
does nothing to help the customer. It basically generates more
revenue to allow Embarcadero to provide goods/services to customers.
There's nothing inherently wrong with that in itself. It's just that
it gives the impression that customers aren't the priority.

Yes, I hear the cries of:
- But customers are our priority!
- But if they don't do that where would Embarcadero get money
to fund the development?
- You want them to give everything away for free?"

Um.. No.

- From that change alone, Embarcadero has demonstrated
generating money is the priority.
- Without needing to make that change, can Embarcadero
create/maintain the products? If no, why? I mean, it is only with
XE8. What about prior to XE7? How did Embarcadero get updates/fixes
done without this change? (just questions really. don't
expect any answers, tbh.)
- No. Sure, it'd be great; but Embarcadero isn't an open source
community. It is a company, first and foremost. Which means
it needs to satisfy its shareholders and partners by
generating black ink. But this mentality is what's hurting
Embarcadero. Generating black ink (revenue) isn't supposed
to be a goal. It's supposed to be a by product. The goal
is to...wait for it... provide goods/services that customers
want. But it's the pressure of 'shareholders' and that
'black ink' that pushes companies' focus from #1 to #2.

Just my theoretical $0.02.

Ed
Quentin Correll


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Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: May 10, 2015 10:11 AM   in response to: Edmund Wong in response to: Edmund Wong
Edmund,

| Not really. Companies provide goods and/or services that customers
| want and as a by product, this generates revenue.

Yes, really.

| So the main goal is to provide goods and/or services that customers
| want. Its goal is not to generate revenue.

That's pure bullsh*t!

--

Q -- XanaNews 1.19.1.372 - 2015-05-10 10:09:35

Nick Hodges

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Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: May 10, 2015 2:36 PM   in response to: Edmund Wong in response to: Edmund Wong
Edmund Wong wrote:


So the main goal is to provide goods and/or services that customers
want. Its goal is not to generate revenue. If that is its case,
then they will just be spinning its wheels.

Pretty much the only way to generate revenue is to provide goods and/or
services. YOu are making a distinction without a difference.

And how is it "spinning its wheels" to do the very thing that companies
are designed to do?

I've not really commented on what EMBT is doing, so I'll leave the rest.

--
Nick
Delphi Programming is Fun

Dalija Prasnikar

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Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 26, 2015 3:52 AM   in response to: Nick Hodges in response to: Nick Hodges
Nick Hodges wrote:
Ole Ekerhovd wrote:

It's all about making more money.

Yep, that's exactly what it is all about.

You say that like it's a bad thing.

It is a bad thing. Money is just necessary evil.

When making more money becomes primary goal
(whether we are talking about companies or people)
then the whole hell breaks loose. When only thing you
care about is money, then it becomes real easy to justify
almost anything to make more money.

--
Dalija Prasnikar
Nick Hodges

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  Posted: Apr 26, 2015 4:37 AM   in response to: Dalija Prasnikar in response to: Dalija Prasnikar
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:


When making more money becomes primary goal
(whether we are talking about companies or people)
then the whole hell breaks loose.

Does it. I hate to break it to you, but making money is the primary
goal of most every business, and I don't see hell breaking loose all
over the place.

When only thing you
care about is money, then it becomes real easy to justify
almost anything to make more money.

I never said that the only thing businesses care about is money. They
have to care about a lot of things in order the make money.

--
Nick
Delphi Programming is Fun

Asbjørn Heid

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Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 27, 2015 1:23 AM   in response to: Nick Hodges in response to: Nick Hodges
Nick Hodges wrote:
Ole Ekerhovd wrote:

It's all about making more money.

Yep, that's exactly what it is all about.

You say that like it's a bad thing.

You make a successful smartphone app. I hack your laptop, steal your source code and publish the app under my own, slightly different name.

I now make a lot of money. Seeing this, you naturally accept this as a good thing.

Or?

- Asbjørn
Nick Hodges

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Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 27, 2015 6:12 AM   in response to: Asbjørn Heid in response to: Asbjørn Heid
Asbjørn Heid wrote:

Seeing this, you naturally accept this as a good thing.

Or?

Stealing is wrong. Making a profit off of theft is wrong.

But I'll ask again, why do we devolve to the 0.01% of the side of the
discussion? 99.9% of businesses don't do this.

--
Nick
Delphi Programming is Fun
Asbjørn Heid

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  Posted: Apr 27, 2015 7:02 AM   in response to: Nick Hodges in response to: Nick Hodges
Nick Hodges wrote:
But I'll ask again, why do we devolve to the 0.01% of the side of the
discussion? 99.9% of businesses don't do this.

A lot of your statements carry a number of implicit assumptions. Some quite large, hence not always applicable. Make them explicit and I predict a lot of this noise will go away.

Now... to get a bit more back on topic.

You say it's all about making money. I get what you mean.

The issue is that what's good for a business in terms of increasing profits is not always good for the customers.

A business can make more money by making the product worse. That may not be better for the existing customer base, who may have a significant investment in the product beyond just the purchase price.

- Asbjørn
Nick Hodges

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  Posted: Apr 27, 2015 7:09 AM   in response to: Asbjørn Heid in response to: Asbjørn Heid
Asbjørn Heid wrote:

A business can make more money by making the product worse.

Again, we devolve to the 0.01%.

How, exactly, does that work? It may work in the short term, but it
won't in the long term.

But again, I have no idea why you can't admit that the vast,
overwhelming number of businesses are interested in pleasing customers.

--
Nick
Delphi Programming is Fun
Asbjørn Heid

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  Posted: Apr 27, 2015 7:27 AM   in response to: Nick Hodges in response to: Nick Hodges
Nick Hodges wrote:
Asbjørn Heid wrote:

A business can make more money by making the product worse.

Again, we devolve to the 0.01%.

No, we're back to the 99%.

How, exactly, does that work? It may work in the short term, but it
won't in the long term.

I think you're having a much too narrow view on this.

Say I make a software product. I sell it to N people. My software is complex, with lots of functionality in tons of menus. I discover that I'm missing out on a lot of sales to people who just need to use 20% of the functionality, because my price is too high.

The price is high because maintaining and enhancing all that functionality is time-consuming.

I make a new version where I've cut out 60% of the features and made the menus and dialogs simpler (less options). I sell this at a reduced price.

I now get a lot of new customers, and sell 10*N copies of the new version. Clearly this was a very successful move for my business.

However for my existing customer base (which is now just 1/10th of my current customer base) which was relying on the functionality I removed, this was a very bad move.

This was just one example, there are many other ways.

If you haven't seen this happening, then you haven't been paying attention to the world around you.

But again, I have no idea why you can't admit that the vast,
overwhelming number of businesses are interested in pleasing customers.

Of course they are. But not at any cost (including opportunity cost, like the above). I'm perplexed that you can't see this.

- Asbjørn
Nick Hodges

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  Posted: Apr 27, 2015 10:09 AM   in response to: Asbjørn Heid in response to: Asbjørn Heid
Asbjørn Heid wrote:

If you haven't seen this happening, then you haven't been paying
attention to the world around you.

That may very well be true. In fact, I'm happy to admit it is true.
Can you enlighten me and show me a couple of examples of this happening?

Of course they are. But not at any cost (including opportunity cost,
like the above). I'm perplexed that you can't see this.

I'm perplexed that you think I don't see it.

I'm even more perplexed why it becomes the centerpiece of the
conversation, instead of the reality of what the vast, overwhelming
majority of businesses do.

--
Nick
Delphi Programming is Fun
Asbjørn Heid

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Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 27, 2015 12:32 PM   in response to: Nick Hodges in response to: Nick Hodges
Nick Hodges wrote:
Asbjørn Heid wrote:

If you haven't seen this happening, then you haven't been paying
attention to the world around you.

That may very well be true. In fact, I'm happy to admit it is true.
Can you enlighten me and show me a couple of examples of this happening?

Well I thought I just did in the post you replied to.

I'm even more perplexed why it becomes the centerpiece of the
conversation, instead of the reality of what the vast, overwhelming
majority of businesses do.

Well as far as I can see, the vast, overwhelming majority of businesses try to figure out how to reduce cost while improving revenue. This directly leads them to make more money, which I thought was what you were trying to point out, no?

Many do this in the way I described in my earlier post.

For example, last year the Kinder Surprise Advent calendar didn't contain any Happy Hippo cream biscuits. My girlfriend was devestated by this. The calendar was a tradition she's had from her childhood, and for her the Happy Hippo biscuits were by far the best part of the calendar (they don't sell the Happy Hippo biscuits separately here in Norway). What were they replaced with? Some generic chocolate thing that's significantly less costly to produce. This allowed the producer to maintain the price point, maximizing their profits. My girlfriend no longer has this tradition.

Acronis released the True Image 2015 version of their product with many features cut[1]. A lot of users relied on these features. The nature of the software means old versions of the software may not work on newer versions of Windows. If you update Windows you'll be forced to update True Image at some point. Cutting the features reduced their development cost. One can only assume they performed the risk/reward analysis and found that this maximizes their profits while driving a portion of their existing customers away.

Are you saying you've never seen this? I see it all over.

[1]: https://forum.acronis.com/forum/65498

- Asbjørn
Nick Hodges

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  Posted: Apr 27, 2015 12:46 PM   in response to: Asbjørn Heid in response to: Asbjørn Heid
Asbjørn Heid wrote:

Well I thought I just did in the post you replied to.

I was looking for some real-life examples of it actually happening.

My girlfriend no longer has this tradition.

I'm sorry to hear it. No doubt the company was feeling some price
pressures.

Are you saying you've never seen this? I see it all over.

No, I see it all the time, but I understand it is the nature of
business.

--
Nick
Delphi Programming is Fun
Asbjørn Heid

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Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 27, 2015 1:24 PM   in response to: Nick Hodges in response to: Nick Hodges
Nick Hodges wrote:
Asbjørn Heid wrote:
Are you saying you've never seen this? I see it all over.

No, I see it all the time, but I understand it is the nature of
business.

So maybe it's a bit more than the 0.1%?

Because to me it's quite frequent. EMB for example have in recent years done quite a lot of it. Quality has gone down, sales have gone up.

- Asbjørn
Nick Hodges

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  Posted: Apr 27, 2015 1:35 PM   in response to: Asbjørn Heid in response to: Asbjørn Heid
Asbjørn Heid wrote:

Quality has gone down, sales have gone up.

Hmm. The marketplace speaks.

--
Nick
Delphi Programming is Fun
Asbjørn Heid

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  Posted: Apr 27, 2015 1:39 PM   in response to: Nick Hodges in response to: Nick Hodges
Nick Hodges wrote:
Asbjørn Heid wrote:

Quality has gone down, sales have gone up.

Hmm. The marketplace speaks.

Yes, and I never said anything to the contrary.

What I did say is that this is not invariably positive for existing customers.

- Asbjørn
Nick Hodges

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  Posted: Apr 27, 2015 1:41 PM   in response to: Asbjørn Heid in response to: Asbjørn Heid
Asbjørn Heid wrote:


What I did say is that this is not invariably positive for existing
customers.

And I never said that a company has to keep their existing customers
happy.

If they make a move that pisses off 75% of their existing customers,
but gains them 3 times the customers that they had, how is that not
"making customers happy"?

--
Nick
Delphi Programming is Fun
Nick Hodges

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  Posted: Apr 27, 2015 1:44 PM   in response to: Nick Hodges in response to: Nick Hodges
Nick Hodges wrote:

If they make a move that pisses off 75% of their existing customers,
but gains them 3 times the customers that they had, how is that not
"making customers happy"?

And yes, I'm aware that they've irritated some customers. But that's
just the way the world works. Sometimes my favorite TV show gets
cancelled. I don't like it, but I know that a TV Network can't afford
to lose money on TV shows.

--
Nick
Delphi Programming is Fun

Markus Humm

Posts: 5,113
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Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 27, 2015 2:00 PM   in response to: Nick Hodges in response to: Nick Hodges
Am 27.04.2015 um 22:44 schrieb Nick Hodges:
Nick Hodges wrote:

If they make a move that pisses off 75% of their existing customers,
but gains them 3 times the customers that they had, how is that not
"making customers happy"?

And yes, I'm aware that they've irritated some customers. But that's
just the way the world works. Sometimes my favorite TV show gets
cancelled. I don't like it, but I know that a TV Network can't afford
to lose money on TV shows.

Hm? The bottom line is what is relevant. If that's still positive and if
that particular money loosing TV show keeps a relevant number of viewers
viewing that channel and thus other stuff on that channel generating
advertising money etc. it might be good to keep that money loosing show.

Some companies sell certain stuff for a loss (or give it away for free)
just to keep certain customers which whom they do other lucrative
business as well. If they wouldn't sell those few loss generating
products to them those customers might easily switch to another provider
where they can get everything they want from one single party.

Greetings

Markus
Nick Hodges

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  Posted: Apr 27, 2015 2:16 PM   in response to: Markus Humm in response to: Markus Humm
Markus Humm wrote:

Hm? The bottom line is what is relevant. If that's still positive and
if that particular money loosing TV show keeps a relevant number of
viewers viewing that channel and thus other stuff on that channel
generating advertising money etc. it might be good to keep that money
loosing show.

Might be -- depends. I'm not an expert on the TV business.

Some companies sell certain stuff for a loss (or give it away for
free) just to keep certain customers which whom they do other
lucrative business as well. If they wouldn't sell those few loss
generating products to them those customers might easily switch to
another provider where they can get everything they want from one
single party.

Yep, such things are called "Loss leaders". Companies employ this
tactic because it is profitable.

--
Nick
Delphi Programming is Fun
Markus Humm

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Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 28, 2015 10:56 AM   in response to: Nick Hodges in response to: Nick Hodges
Am 27.04.2015 um 23:16 schrieb Nick Hodges:
Markus Humm wrote:

Some companies sell certain stuff for a loss (or give it away for
free) just to keep certain customers which whom they do other
lucrative business as well. If they wouldn't sell those few loss
generating products to them those customers might easily switch to
another provider where they can get everything they want from one
single party.

Yep, such things are called "Loss leaders". Companies employ this
tactic because it is profitable.

Hello,

now you contradict yourself a bit. If loss leaders are possible a not
well performin proiduct (like said TV show) doesn't always have to be
cancelled if it's running is helpfull in the bigger context.

Greetings

Markus
Nick Hodges

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  Posted: Apr 28, 2015 10:59 AM   in response to: Markus Humm in response to: Markus Humm
Markus Humm wrote:

now you contradict yourself a bit. If loss leaders are possible a not
well performin proiduct (like said TV show) doesn't always have to be
cancelled if it's running is helpfull in the bigger context.

Agreed.

--
Nick
Delphi Programming is Fun
Asbjørn Heid

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Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 27, 2015 1:52 PM   in response to: Nick Hodges in response to: Nick Hodges
Nick Hodges wrote:
If they make a move that pisses off 75% of their existing customers,
but gains them 3 times the customers that they had, how is that not
"making customers happy"?

You said:
It's all about making more money.
Yep, that's exactly what it is all about.
You say that like it's a bad thing.

My point is simply that for an existing customer, it can be a bad thing for EMB to make more money.

- Asbjørn
Nick Hodges

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  Posted: Apr 27, 2015 2:17 PM   in response to: Asbjørn Heid in response to: Asbjørn Heid
Asbjørn Heid wrote:

My point is simply that for an existing customer, it can be a bad
thing for EMB to make more money.

Okay.

--
Nick
Delphi Programming is Fun
Eivind Bakkestuen


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Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 27, 2015 5:24 PM   in response to: Nick Hodges in response to: Nick Hodges
That may very well be true. In fact, I'm happy to admit it is true.
Can you enlighten me and show me a couple of examples of this
happening?

Acronis True Image 2015. Less functionality than previous versions,
dumbed down "tile" interface which looks pretty but is really obnoxious
to use, same price. Of course, I don't know if they actually sell to
more customers as a result, but one would assume they had done some
sort of market testing before making such a change.

--
Eivind Bakkestuen [NDD]
Adem Meda

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Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 28, 2015 5:19 AM   in response to: Eivind Bakkestuen in response to: Eivind Bakkestuen
Eivind Bakkestuen wrote:

Acronis True Image 2015. Less functionality than previous versions,
dumbed down "tile" interface which looks pretty but is really obnoxious
to use, same price. Of course, I don't know if they actually sell to
more customers as a result, but one would assume they had done some
sort of market testing before making such a change.

Acronis comes bundled with a number of hardware vendor's products (HDD and
SSD). That's probably why they needed (was told) to dumb down the SW.

Frankly, I gave up on Acronis about 5 year ago. Paragon, EaseUS etc. do much
better job.
Graham Stratford

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Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 29, 2015 7:47 AM   in response to: Eivind Bakkestuen in response to: Eivind Bakkestuen
Eivind Bakkestuen wrote:

Acronis True Image 2015. Less functionality than previous versions,
dumbed down "tile" interface which looks pretty but is really obnoxious
to use, same price. Of course, I don't know if they actually sell to
more customers as a result, but one would assume they had done some
sort of market testing before making such a change.

--
Eivind Bakkestuen [NDD]

It's a completely different market, but you have probably noticed how, in supermarkets, almost every product has shrunk while keeping the same (or even increasing!) the price. Apple juice used to be sold in 1.36 litre cans. Now it's 1.05 litres, sometimes 0.95 litres. I saw recently that Smarties have dropped from 50g to 45g, while touting "new packaging!" Cookies, cereal, etc., etc. It's not just [my imagination|http://www.today.com/news/supermarket-shrinkage-its-not-your-imagination-experts-say-2D79677603] .
david hoke

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Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 29, 2015 8:11 AM   in response to: Graham Stratford in response to: Graham Stratford
<Graham Stratford> wrote in message news:722346 at forums dot embarcadero dot com...
It's a completely different market, but you have probably noticed how, in
supermarkets, almost every product has shrunk while keeping the same (or
even increasing!) the price. Apple juice used to be sold in 1.36 litre
cans. Now it's 1.05 litres, sometimes 0.95 litres. I saw recently that
Smarties have dropped from 50g to 45g, while touting "new packaging!"
Cookies, cereal, etc., etc. It's not just [my
imagination|http://www.today.com/news/supermarket-shrinkage-its-not-your-imagination-experts-say-2D79677
603] .

definitely not imaginations...

soap bars - (one brand) don't know what they used to be but bigger, and now
not only smaller but fewer of them (was 12, now 10) in 'bulk' packages
sphaghetti sauce jars - 32 oz, 28oz 26oz, 24oz, now 22.5 or 23.5 (forget
which I saw last)...
ice cream - 1/2 gal, now 1/3 gal
-and-
Delphi/builder products - product WITH basic bugfixes/patches fixing
included, now basic product withOUT bugfixes/patches included

Now, is that called inflation? Or deflation?
Nick Hodges

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Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 29, 2015 8:15 AM   in response to: david hoke in response to: david hoke
david hoke wrote:

definitely not imaginations...

My favorit is the size of the depression in the bottom of peanut butter
jars.

--
Nick
Delphi Programming is Fun
david hoke

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Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 29, 2015 8:30 AM   in response to: david hoke in response to: david hoke
"david hoke" <dhoke.nojunk@east-shore.com> wrote in message
news:722350 at forums dot embarcadero dot com...

definitely not imaginations...

soap bars - (one brand) don't know what they used to be but bigger, and
now not only smaller but fewer of them (was 12, now 10) in 'bulk' packages
sphaghetti sauce jars - 32 oz, 28oz 26oz, 24oz, now 22.5 or 23.5 (forget
which I saw last)...
ice cream - 1/2 gal, now 1/3 gal
-and-
Delphi/builder products - product WITH basic bugfixes/patches fixing
included, now basic product withOUT bugfixes/patches included

Now, is that called inflation? Or deflation?

And, is that creating wealth?
Or reducing wealth?
Or break-even wealth, but just changing who holds it.
Nick Hodges

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Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 29, 2015 8:41 AM   in response to: david hoke in response to: david hoke
david hoke wrote:

And, is that creating wealth?

It creates wealth. People willingly by these "reduced" products, thus
generating wealth.

Wealth, of course, is created by the willing exchange of goods and
services for money.

--
Nick
Delphi Programming is Fun
david hoke

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Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 29, 2015 8:48 AM   in response to: Nick Hodges in response to: Nick Hodges
"Nick Hodges" <nickhodges at gmail dot com> wrote in message
news:722357 at forums dot embarcadero dot com...
david hoke wrote:

And, is that creating wealth?

It creates wealth. People willingly by these "reduced" products, thus
generating wealth.

Wealth, of course, is created by the willing exchange of goods and
services for money.

I remain unconvinced.

I see a reduction in wealth (on one side)
either commensurate with the increase in wealth (on other side),
or possibly reduction greater than increase, as most (all?) of
those items mentioned, and I dare say most items purchased/used
by the general population, are of a consumable and/or decaying nature.
Nick Hodges

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Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 29, 2015 10:11 AM   in response to: david hoke in response to: david hoke
david hoke wrote:


I remain unconvinced.

Where does wealth come from in your view?

--
Nick
Delphi Programming is Fun
david hoke

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Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 29, 2015 12:53 PM   in response to: Nick Hodges in response to: Nick Hodges
"Nick Hodges" <nickhodges at gmail dot com> wrote in message
news:722371 at forums dot embarcadero dot com...
david hoke wrote:


I remain unconvinced.

Where does wealth come from in your view?

I suspect its fairly artificial, deriving mostly from people's perceptions,
desires.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_the_Confederate_States_of_America

True value, on the other hand, may mostly come from labor.

But I may not have that thought out well enough...
Markus Humm

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Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 29, 2015 11:55 AM   in response to: Nick Hodges in response to: Nick Hodges
Am 29.04.2015 um 17:41 schrieb Nick Hodges:
david hoke wrote:

And, is that creating wealth?

It creates wealth. People willingly by these "reduced" products, thus
generating wealth.

Wealth, of course, is created by the willing exchange of goods and
services for money.

Depends. If all peanut butter manufactures do the same or things with
similiar effects people have to buy that stuff if they want to continue
eating it. They didn't request for those changes.

Greetings

Markus
Nick Hodges

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Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 29, 2015 12:10 PM   in response to: Markus Humm in response to: Markus Humm
Markus Humm wrote:

Depends. If all peanut butter manufactures do the same or things with
similiar effects people have to buy that stuff if they want to
continue eating it. They didn't request for those changes.

Not sure of your point. Most of us can buy from many, many, many
peanut butter vendors.

--
Nick
Delphi Programming is Fun
Brandon Staggs

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Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 29, 2015 12:46 PM   in response to: Nick Hodges in response to: Nick Hodges
"Nick Hodges" wrote on Wed, 29 Apr 2015 12:10:27 -0700:

Not sure of your point. Most of us can buy from many, many, many
peanut butter vendors.

Sometimes I forget that there are countries where every store is like
Aldi and you don't have any choices. The evil Walmart down the street
from my house must have ten different peanut butter brands all
competing for my purchase right there on the shelf and several sizes
from each one to choose from, all clearly labeled.

--
Brandon Staggs
StudyLamp Software LLC
http://www.studylamp.com
Nick Hodges

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Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 29, 2015 12:54 PM   in response to: Brandon Staggs in response to: Brandon Staggs
Brandon Staggs wrote:

The evil Walmart down the street
from my house must have ten different peanut butter brands all
competing for my purchase right there on the shelf and several sizes
from each one to choose from, all clearly labeled.

Not only that, they are probably cheaper than most places.

Horrible, horrible Walmart! Selling all that stuff and saving people
so much money!

--
Nick
Delphi Programming is Fun
Brandon Staggs

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Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 29, 2015 12:44 PM   in response to: Markus Humm in response to: Markus Humm
"Markus Humm" wrote on Wed, 29 Apr 2015 11:55:42 -0700:

Depends. If all peanut butter manufactures do the same or things with
similiar effects people have to buy that stuff if they want to continue
eating it. They didn't request for those changes.

Depressions in the bottom of containers serve a packing function and
increase structural integrity of the container. I know people look at
the bottom of cola cans and other jars and think someone is trying to
fool them, but the quantity of these items is labeled plainly and you
would not want to set a can of cola next to your keyboard that was
"flat" on the bottom after the contents of the can expand and cause it
to be round instead of flat.

ANYWAY, not all peanut butter is even sold in plastic jars. You can
go to more expensive stores and grind the stuff into the container of
your choice if you want. There is no big evil peanut butter
distribution cartel killing people who whisleblow about how they trick
you into buying less peanut butter. On-shelf competition makes it
pretty easy -- if Jif can label their stuff as "more than the other
guys," it's right there next to Skippy and Peter pan, for crying out
loud. If people care, the nature of competition will ensure that they
have a choice.

The cost of food IS going up. Of course it is. Government is paying
people to use food as fuel, fuel is costing more so food costs more to
ship, ignorant people object to GMO and demand primitive less
efficient and less healthy "organic" farming, etc. All these things
are increasing the cost of food, not to mention simple inflation.

--
Brandon Staggs
StudyLamp Software LLC
http://www.studylamp.com
Brandon Staggs

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Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 29, 2015 12:54 PM   in response to: Brandon Staggs in response to: Brandon Staggs
"Brandon Staggs" wrote on Wed, 29 Apr 2015 12:44:14 -0700:

Depressions in the bottom of containers serve a packing function and
increase structural integrity of the container. I know people look at
the bottom of cola cans and other jars and think someone is trying to
fool them, but the quantity of these items is labeled plainly and you
would not want to set a can of cola next to your keyboard that was
"flat" on the bottom after the contents of the can expand and cause it
to be round instead of flat.

By the way, I am not saying that packaging sizes are not ever
manipulated for marketing purposes, but the shelf-space competition
available in developed countries makes it fairly impossible for you to
be "tricked" into paying more for less.

Except where those tricky peanut butter cartels are involved, making
sure Jif and Skippey don't try to undercut each other.

--
Brandon Staggs
StudyLamp Software LLC
http://www.studylamp.com

Dave White

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Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 27, 2015 11:50 AM   in response to: Nick Hodges in response to: Nick Hodges
On 4/27/2015 9:09 AM, Nick Hodges wrote:
Asbjørn Heid wrote:

A business can make more money by making the product worse.

Again, we devolve to the 0.01%.

Nick, you keep throwing around these 99.9% and 0.01% like they're fact.
Source for your numbers please, or elase they may just as well be 95%
and 5% or %0% and 50%, or even 0.01% and 99.9% the other way, which
completely changes your argument. Pulling numbers out of the air to
support an argument is ridiculous, and does your argument no justice.
Nick Hodges

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Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 27, 2015 12:28 PM   in response to: Dave White in response to: Dave White
Dave White wrote:

Pulling numbers out of the air to
support an argument is ridiculous, and does your argument no justice.

I made those numbers up, but they are illustrative. My point should be
clear.

--
Nick
Delphi Programming is Fun
Dave White

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Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 27, 2015 12:42 PM   in response to: Nick Hodges in response to: Nick Hodges
On 4/27/2015 2:28 PM, Nick Hodges wrote:
Dave White wrote:

Pulling numbers out of the air to
support an argument is ridiculous, and does your argument no justice.

I made those numbers up, but they are illustrative. My point should be
clear.

The only thing that's clear from that is that you're making stuff up as
you go along so your arguments have no standing.
Nick Hodges

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Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 27, 2015 12:46 PM   in response to: Dave White in response to: Dave White
Dave White wrote:

The only thing that's clear from that is that you're making stuff up
as you go along so your arguments have no standing.

Okay. If you don't understand my point with the numbers, I'm fine with
that.

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Nick
Delphi Programming is Fun
Keld Hansen

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Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 28, 2015 4:20 AM   in response to: Nick Hodges in response to: Nick Hodges
Nick Hodges wrote:

But I'll ask again, why do we devolve to the 0.01% of the side of the
discussion? 99.9% of businesses don't do this.

[OFF TOPIC]

99.9% + 0.01% = 99.91%

What about the remaining 0.09% ? :-)

[/OFF TOPIC]

Sorry - couldn't help myself. You have now made that computational error at least twice :-)
Nick Hodges

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Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 28, 2015 6:47 AM   in response to: Keld Hansen in response to: Keld Hansen
Keld Hansen wrote:

Sorry - couldn't help myself. You have now made that computational
error at least twice :-)

Doh!

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Nick
Delphi Programming is Fun
Brandon Staggs

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Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 24, 2015 2:21 PM   in response to: Ole Ekerhovd in response to: Ole Ekerhovd
"Ole Ekerhovd" wrote on Fri, 24 Apr 2015 12:25:58 -0700:

It's all about making more money.

In the end I want Embarcadero to make more money. They make tools I
use. Why wouldn't I want them to be financially successful? Their
goal to make money is more likely to provide me with what I want than
a more altruistic approach.

--
Brandon Staggs
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Frans van Daalen

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Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 24, 2015 2:51 PM   in response to: Brandon Staggs in response to: Brandon Staggs
Brandon Staggs schreef op 24-4-2015 om 11:21:
"Ole Ekerhovd" wrote on Fri, 24 Apr 2015 12:25:58 -0700:

It's all about making more money.

In the end I want Embarcadero to make more money. They make tools I
use. Why wouldn't I want them to be financially successful? Their
goal to make money is more likely to provide me with what I want than
a more altruistic approach.

If their only goal is to make more money then they have no reason at
all in providing you with what you want. Because as soon as you have
what you want you will stop paying. So they will lure you with false
promises, fake propositions and unfinished functionality and they will
promise you that all is going to be solved if you just pay a bit more
for a bit longer....and we call that a subscription model ;-)
Nick Hodges

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Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 25, 2015 3:27 AM   in response to: Frans van Daalen in response to: Frans van Daalen
Frans van Daalen wrote:

If their only goal is to make more money then they have no reason at
all in providing you with what you want.

This is utter nonsense. In fact, the exact opposite is true.

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Nick
Delphi Programming is Fun
Frans van Daalen

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Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 26, 2015 3:36 AM   in response to: Nick Hodges in response to: Nick Hodges
Nick Hodges schreef op 25-4-2015 om 12:27:
Frans van Daalen wrote:

If their only goal is to make more money then they have no reason at
all in providing you with what you want.

This is utter nonsense. In fact, the exact opposite is true.
<sarcasm on>Yes, it's such utter nonsense that there is even a marketing
phrase\word for it.<sarcasm off>
Nick Hodges

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Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 26, 2015 4:37 AM   in response to: Frans van Daalen in response to: Frans van Daalen
Frans van Daalen wrote:

<sarcasm on>Yes, it's such utter nonsense that there is even a
marketing phrase\word for it.<sarcasm off>

Uhm, what?

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Nick
Delphi Programming is Fun
Nick Hodges

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Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 25, 2015 3:30 AM   in response to: Brandon Staggs in response to: Brandon Staggs
Brandon Staggs wrote:

In the end I want Embarcadero to make more money. They make tools I
use. Why wouldn't I want them to be financially successful? Their
goal to make money is more likely to provide me with what I want than
a more altruistic approach.

And somehoe the notion of making more money is viewed negatively.

A company that increases profits does all kinds of good things.
Mainly, they employ more people, putting food on the table and
increasing the standard of living for more than just the new employees.

Profits are the essense of economic growth. No profits, no growth. No
growth, our standard of living stagnates.

The reason that people are poor in Africa is because they make it
difficult for people to make profits.

--
Nick
Delphi Programming is Fun
Markus Humm

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Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 25, 2015 7:43 AM   in response to: Nick Hodges in response to: Nick Hodges
Am 25.04.2015 um 12:30 schrieb Nick Hodges:
Brandon Staggs wrote:

In the end I want Embarcadero to make more money. They make tools I
use. Why wouldn't I want them to be financially successful? Their
goal to make money is more likely to provide me with what I want than
a more altruistic approach.

And somehoe the notion of making more money is viewed negatively.

That's not really true. It simply depends on how the more money is being
made. More money from the same customer base or more by increasing the
customer base?

Greetings

Markus
Nick Hodges

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  Posted: Apr 25, 2015 8:27 AM   in response to: Markus Humm in response to: Markus Humm
Markus Humm wrote:

That's not really true. It simply depends on how the more money is
being made. More money from the same customer base or more by
increasing the customer base?

Either one is fine.

--
Nick
Delphi Programming is Fun
Dalija Prasnikar

Posts: 2,325
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Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 26, 2015 3:45 AM   in response to: Nick Hodges in response to: Nick Hodges
Nick Hodges wrote:
Markus Humm wrote:

That's not really true. It simply depends on how the more money is
being made. More money from the same customer base or more by
increasing the customer base?

Either one is fine.

No, it is not.

Company can be healthier in the long run and can more easily get through
different bumps on the road if it has more customers.

Let's say something happens and they need to collect 10 million USD in order
to keep the business going.

If they have 1 million customers, they would only need to raise prices by
10 USD (I will simplify calculation, as not all customers would buy product
in desired time-frame). But if they have 10 000 customers they would need
to raise prices by 1000 USD. In first case nobody would care too much if
prices go up by 10 USD, but imagine what would happen in later scenario.

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Dalija Prasnikar
Nick Hodges

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Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 26, 2015 4:40 AM   in response to: Dalija Prasnikar in response to: Dalija Prasnikar
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:

Company can be healthier in the long run and can more easily get
through different bumps on the road if it has more customers.

That's not true. Totally depends on the business model. There are
plenty of business models where more customers can be costly to the
business.


If they have 1 million customers, they would only need to raise
prices by 10 USD (I will simplify calculation, as not all customers
would buy product in desired time-frame). But if they have 10 000
customers they would need to raise prices by 1000 USD. In first case
nobody would care too much if prices go up by 10 USD, but imagine
what would happen in later scenario.

Companies can't raise prices because they want to. Raising prices will
decrease sales, and it totally depends on the demand curve whether a
price hike will increase profits or not.

Not any polite way to say this: You need to take an economics course.

--
Nick
Delphi Programming is Fun

Dalija Prasnikar

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Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 26, 2015 4:46 AM   in response to: Nick Hodges in response to: Nick Hodges
Nick Hodges wrote:
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:

Company can be healthier in the long run and can more easily get
through different bumps on the road if it has more customers.

That's not true. Totally depends on the business model. There are
plenty of business models where more customers can be costly to the
business.

We are talking about Embarcadero here, aren't we.



If they have 1 million customers, they would only need to raise
prices by 10 USD (I will simplify calculation, as not all customers
would buy product in desired time-frame). But if they have 10 000
customers they would need to raise prices by 1000 USD. In first case
nobody would care too much if prices go up by 10 USD, but imagine
what would happen in later scenario.

Companies can't raise prices because they want to. Raising prices will
decrease sales, and it totally depends on the demand curve whether a
price hike will increase profits or not.

If your base price is 1000 USD (again I am simplifying) then price increase of
10 USD is negligible and price increase of 1000 USD is intolerable.

If only Embarcadero would hear you. They are raising prices on a whim.

Not any polite way to say this: You need to take an economics course.

I could say the same ;-)

--
Dalija Prasnikar
Nick Hodges

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Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 26, 2015 4:53 AM   in response to: Dalija Prasnikar in response to: Dalija Prasnikar
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:

We are talking about Embarcadero here, aren't we.

I'm not.

If your base price is 1000 USD (again I am simplifying) then price
increase of 10 USD is negligible and price increase of 1000 USD is
intolerable.

Depends on the demand curve, which neither of us knows much about.

They are raising prices on a whim.

Are they?

I could say the same ;-)

Ahh, but I have.

--
Nick
Delphi Programming is Fun
Dave White

Posts: 13
Registered: 10/19/99
Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 27, 2015 11:53 AM   in response to: Nick Hodges in response to: Nick Hodges
On 4/26/2015 6:53 AM, Nick Hodges wrote:

I could say the same ;-)

Ahh, but I have.

Taking a course doesn't make you an expert in the field. I know plenty
of people that took courses with me over the years that I was at
university, and I definitely wouldn't trust them as chemists.
Nick Hodges

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Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 27, 2015 12:29 PM   in response to: Dave White in response to: Dave White
Dave White wrote:

Taking a course doesn't make you an expert in the field.

I completely agree. But not taking the course very likely makes you
pretty ignorant.

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Nick
Delphi Programming is Fun
Markus Humm

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Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 27, 2015 11:24 AM   in response to: Nick Hodges in response to: Nick Hodges
Am 26.04.2015 um 13:40 schrieb Nick Hodges:
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:

Company can be healthier in the long run and can more easily get
through different bumps on the road if it has more customers.

That's not true. Totally depends on the business model. There are
plenty of business models where more customers can be costly to the
business.


If they have 1 million customers, they would only need to raise
prices by 10 USD (I will simplify calculation, as not all customers
would buy product in desired time-frame). But if they have 10 000
customers they would need to raise prices by 1000 USD. In first case
nobody would care too much if prices go up by 10 USD, but imagine
what would happen in later scenario.

Companies can't raise prices because they want to. Raising prices will
decrease sales, and it totally depends on the demand curve whether a
price hike will increase profits or not.

Not any polite way to say this: You need to take an economics course.

Sorry to say Nick, but it's you who needs the economic course. You need
to differentiate products more! There are different categories of
products and for some they simply can raise prices without a really
decreasing sale. This is true for all products which you need but which
don't have any replacement/substitution available.

Some products are even "legal monopolies" ;-)

Greetings

Markus
Nick Hodges

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Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 27, 2015 12:30 PM   in response to: Markus Humm in response to: Markus Humm
Markus Humm wrote:

Sorry to say Nick, but it's you who needs the economic course.

Don't we all.

You
need to differentiate products more! There are different categories of
products and for some they simply can raise prices without a really
decreasing sale.

Yes, I understand this. Very few products are this inelastic, but some
are. Some even have negative price elasticity.

This is true for all products which you need but
which don't have any replacement/substitution available.

Some products are even "legal monopolies" ;-)

Even legal monopolies can't "charge whatever they want".

--
Nick
Delphi Programming is Fun

Brandon Staggs

Posts: 683
Registered: 3/3/01
Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 25, 2015 9:28 AM   in response to: Markus Humm in response to: Markus Humm
"Markus Humm" wrote on Sat, 25 Apr 2015 07:43:02 -0700:

That's not really true. It simply depends on how the more money is being
made. More money from the same customer base or more by increasing the
customer base?

Why should I care, as long as they are offering me something I want?
Oh, I know it would be nice to have a growing user base for the sake
of long-term growth, but it has not been proven that they don't have a
growing user base, and it's not really a requirement of future
support. People still using Cobol still have options.

Don't misunderstand me: I am a critic of many of Embarcadero's product
decisions wrt RAD Studio. I think they have made asinine moves (8-bit
strings being made inaccessible on mobile, for example). But this
whole line of criticism about profits is stupid. It's a cacophony of
ignorant spew, imho.

--
Brandon Staggs
StudyLamp Software LLC
http://www.studylamp.com
Markus Humm

Posts: 5,113
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Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 27, 2015 11:26 AM   in response to: Brandon Staggs in response to: Brandon Staggs
Am 25.04.2015 um 18:28 schrieb Brandon Staggs:
"Markus Humm" wrote on Sat, 25 Apr 2015 07:43:02 -0700:

That's not really true. It simply depends on how the more money is being
made. More money from the same customer base or more by increasing the
customer base?

Why should I care, as long as they are offering me something I want?
Oh, I know it would be nice to have a growing user base for the sake
of long-term growth, but it has not been proven that they don't have a
growing user base, and it's not really a requirement of future
support. People still using Cobol still have options.

Yep, e.g. from Microfocus, which is Borland's current mother company ;-)

Greetings

Markus
Nick Hodges

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Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 25, 2015 3:32 AM   in response to: Brandon Staggs in response to: Brandon Staggs
Brandon Staggs wrote:

In the end I want Embarcadero to make more money. They make tools I
use. Why wouldn't I want them to be financially successful? Their
goal to make money is more likely to provide me with what I want than
a more altruistic approach.

And somehoe the notion of making more money is viewed negatively.

A company that increases profits does all kinds of good things.
Mainly, they employ more people, putting food on the table and
increasing the standard of living for more than just the new employees.

Profits are the essense of economic growth. No profits, no growth. No
growth, our standard of living stagnates.

The reason that people are poor in Africa is because they make it
difficult for people to make profits.

--
Nick
Delphi Programming is Fun
Frans van Daalen

Posts: 29
Registered: 11/12/01
Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 26, 2015 2:56 AM   in response to: Nick Hodges in response to: Nick Hodges
Nick Hodges schreef op 25-4-2015 om 12:32:
Brandon Staggs wrote:

In the end I want Embarcadero to make more money. They make tools I
use. Why wouldn't I want them to be financially successful? Their
goal to make money is more likely to provide me with what I want than
a more altruistic approach.

And somehoe the notion of making more money is viewed negatively.

A company that increases profits does all kinds of good things.
Mainly, they employ more people, putting food on the table and
increasing the standard of living for more than just the new employees.

Profits are the essense of economic growth. No profits, no growth. No
growth, our standard of living stagnates.

The reason that people are poor in Africa is because they make it
difficult for people to make profits.

If you really believe this then you are blind for all that has happened
when the objective for making more money corrupted companies and created
totally unethical behaviour. Causing millions to lose
jobs/work/house/health/live/retirement

What do you think that drove companies like
ENRON
Waste Management
Worldcom
Lehman

etc...
Nick Hodges

Posts: 2,414
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 26, 2015 4:41 AM   in response to: Frans van Daalen in response to: Frans van Daalen
Frans van Daalen wrote:

If you really believe this then you are blind for all that has
happened when the objective for making more money corrupted companies
and created totally unethical behaviour. Causing millions to lose
jobs/work/house/health/live/retirement

That happens sometimes. It happens to an extreme minority of
businesses.

What do you think that drove companies like
ENRON
Waste Management
Worldcom
Lehman

You've listed four businesses here. How many businesses are there in
the world?

--
Nick
Delphi Programming is Fun
Frans van Daalen

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Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 27, 2015 11:47 PM   in response to: Nick Hodges in response to: Nick Hodges
Nick Hodges schreef op 26-4-2015 om 1:41:
You've listed four businesses here. How many businesses are there in
the world?

It's not about the amount of businesses! it's about the impact those
businesses have. A one-man shop going bankrupt because of corruption
might have less impact then companies like BP Enron etc with Madoff as
an exception maybe. So that's why I listed a few that already cause ten
thousands to lose anything they had. The Bhopal (Union carbide) is only
one company but there are more then 600.000 people (and still counting)
suffering from the consequences of increasing profit by cost cutting on
security measurements.

And that's why I replied to the statement you made below

Nick Hodges wrote

A company that increases profits does all kinds of good things.
Mainly, they employ more people, putting food on the table and
increasing the standard of living for more than just the new employees.
Nick Hodges

Posts: 2,414
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 26, 2015 5:24 AM   in response to: Frans van Daalen in response to: Frans van Daalen
Frans van Daalen wrote:

What do you think that drove companies like
ENRON
Waste Management
Worldcom
Lehman

See that's the problem with these discussions.

I say "Businesses exist to make money" and the reaction to that goes
straight to "But look at Enron!!!!!!"

Enron is an abberation. Enron happened because there are unethical,
greedy people in the world. Those specific, isolated, rare cases don't
make my general statement any less true.

If it's false that businesses exist to make money, then what is the
purpose of a business?

--
Nick
Delphi Programming is Fun
david hoke

Posts: 616
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Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 27, 2015 6:50 AM   in response to: Nick Hodges in response to: Nick Hodges
"Nick Hodges" <nickhodges at gmail dot com> wrote in message
news:721768 at forums dot embarcadero dot com...

If it's false that businesses exist to make money, then what is the
purpose of a business?

Or what could the purpose of business be?

Perhaps...

To provide or achieve something useful/beneficial that cannot be provided by
an individual alone (and this for the benefit of others, without detriment
either to others or to those involved in the provision.)
Nick Hodges

Posts: 2,414
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Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 27, 2015 7:10 AM   in response to: david hoke in response to: david hoke
david hoke wrote:

To provide or achieve something useful/beneficial that cannot be
provided by an individual alone (and this for the benefit of others,
without detriment either to others or to those involved in the
provision.)

And how do they go about doing that? How do they continue going about
doing that? How do they sustain the ability to do that?

--
Nick
Delphi Programming is Fun
Wagner Landgraf

Posts: 47
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Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 27, 2015 7:23 AM   in response to: Nick Hodges in response to: Nick Hodges
Nick Hodges wrote:
david hoke wrote:

To provide or achieve something useful/beneficial that cannot be
provided by an individual alone (and this for the benefit of others,
without detriment either to others or to those involved in the
provision.)

And how do they go about doing that? How do they continue going about
doing that? How do they sustain the ability to do that?

--
Nick
Delphi Programming is Fun

Yep, your answer is "making profit to get money". But that's not what business DO or what they are FOR. The reason for the business is what David wrote.
A company doesn't need an infinite amount of money to operate.
You said you had a company and you worked you ass off to "put food in your children's table". That's again oversimplifying. That's the only reason you worked for? So when your children got the food you stopped it? Or the next step is buy a car? A house? So then? An helicopter? A jet? A 1000-user EMS license?
If a company has enough money to operate for the next 20 years should all the CEO and employees strategic moves be focused on... making money???
That's my point and my critical to your oversimplification of things. If a company needs money urgent for the next quarter, fine, they need to do all efforts to do so.
But that's not the only thing. Not the main purpose. And companies are drive by PEOPLE, not robots. There a gazillion of other reasons for managers to take actions that don't bring exactly money, but instead bring product quality, customer satisfaction, employee satisfaction, better work conditions, lower environment impact, that do NOT necessarily are taken just because they will bring more money (immediately or in future) or because they are forced to do so.

Please, it's not all about money simply because companies are run by people.
david hoke

Posts: 616
Registered: 2/9/07
Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 27, 2015 7:30 AM   in response to: Nick Hodges in response to: Nick Hodges
"Nick Hodges" <nickhodges at gmail dot com> wrote in message
news:721855 at forums dot embarcadero dot com...
david hoke wrote:

To provide or achieve something useful/beneficial that cannot be
provided by an individual alone (and this for the benefit of others,
without detriment either to others or to those involved in the
provision.)

And how do they go about doing that? How do they continue going about
doing that? How do they sustain the ability to do that?

(Guessing at what you're thinking/implying is necessary (profit?), I
disagree...)

By charging enough (if charging is necessary) to be able to continue their
provision.

Averaging break-even should be sufficient to support this.

Not to say that "profit" may not have certain roles, but I think it should
not have the major role you assign it (reason for existing.)

One role might be as a means to improving/increasing the benefit that is
provided to customers, or enabling additional benefits to be provided
(either to current or new customers.)
Adem Meda

Posts: 495
Registered: 12/28/98
Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 27, 2015 7:36 AM   in response to: Nick Hodges in response to: Nick Hodges
Nick Hodges wrote:

david hoke wrote:

To provide or achieve something useful/beneficial that cannot be
provided by an individual alone (and this for the benefit of others,
without detriment either to others or to those involved in the
provision.)

And how do they go about doing that? How do they continue going about
doing that? How do they sustain the ability to do that?

Yes, Nick, all creatures (real or ficticious) must feed in order to stay alive.

Here is something you seem to have difficulty with grasping: They do NOT exist
to feed.

Not only is there more to existence; but also that they are more likely to die
early if they concentrate on feeding more than what is necessary to stay alive.

But, there's an exception to all this: A troll exists only to feed.
Markus Humm

Posts: 5,113
Registered: 11/9/03
Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 27, 2015 11:30 AM   in response to: Nick Hodges in response to: Nick Hodges
Am 27.04.2015 um 16:10 schrieb Nick Hodges:
david hoke wrote:

To provide or achieve something useful/beneficial that cannot be
provided by an individual alone (and this for the benefit of others,
without detriment either to others or to those involved in the
provision.)

And how do they go about doing that? How do they continue going about
doing that? How do they sustain the ability to do that?

If they make enough money to pay their bills, nothing more and nothing
less. They could also rise mony via kickstarter and similiar platforms.

But look at the stock markets and those analysts: if companies aren't
able to have a 10%+ growth they claim that something's wrong with that
company. But why? They base their figures on incomplete data and claim
that they are right that a certain company could have sold even more of
a certain product in the last quarter. This is based on what please?

Greetingsa

Markus
Nick Hodges

Posts: 2,414
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Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 27, 2015 12:31 PM   in response to: Markus Humm in response to: Markus Humm
Markus Humm wrote:


If they make enough money to pay their bills, nothing more and nothing
less.

That's cutting a very, very fine line.

But look at the stock markets and those analysts: if companies aren't
able to have a 10%+ growth they claim that something's wrong with
that company. But why? They base their figures on incomplete data and
claim that they are right that a certain company could have sold even
more of a certain product in the last quarter. This is based on what
please?

If you figure out the stock market, please clue me in.

--
Nick
Delphi Programming is Fun

Frans van Daalen

Posts: 29
Registered: 11/12/01
Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 27, 2015 11:55 PM   in response to: Nick Hodges in response to: Nick Hodges
Nick Hodges schreef op 26-4-2015 om 2:24:
Frans van Daalen wrote:

What do you think that drove companies like
ENRON
Waste Management
Worldcom
Lehman

See that's the problem with these discussions.

I say "Businesses exist to make money" and the reaction to that goes
straight to "But look at Enron!!!!!!"

Enron is an abberation. Enron happened because there are unethical,
greedy people in the world. Those specific, isolated, rare cases don't
make my general statement any less true.

You think they are isoleted but they are not. The fact that making money
is becoming the main driving force is why the increase of psychpathic
profiles in boardrooms is increasing with all the negative consequences.
Limited research show that in management around 3 times more
psychopathic profiles are to be found then in the general public.
Nick Hodges

Posts: 2,414
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 28, 2015 6:48 AM   in response to: Frans van Daalen in response to: Frans van Daalen
Frans van Daalen wrote:


You think they are isoleted but they are not. The fact that making
money is becoming the main driving force is why the increase of
psychpathic profiles in boardrooms is increasing with all the
negative consequences. Limited research show that in management
around 3 times more psychopathic profiles are to be found then in the
general public.

My recommendation: Don't do business with psychopaths.

--
Nick
Delphi Programming is Fun
Frans van Daalen

Posts: 29
Registered: 11/12/01
Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 28, 2015 8:09 AM   in response to: Nick Hodges in response to: Nick Hodges
Nick Hodges schreef op 28-4-2015 om 3:48:
Frans van Daalen wrote:


You think they are isoleted but they are not. The fact that making
money is becoming the main driving force is why the increase of
psychpathic profiles in boardrooms is increasing with all the
negative consequences. Limited research show that in management
around 3 times more psychopathic profiles are to be found then in the
general public.

My recommendation: Don't do business with psychopaths.
I agree, that's why this is my last delphi version I bought, enough is
enough...
Frans van Daalen

Posts: 29
Registered: 11/12/01
Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 26, 2015 3:17 AM   in response to: Nick Hodges in response to: Nick Hodges
Nick Hodges schreef op 25-4-2015 om 12:32:

The reason that people are poor in Africa is because they make it
difficult for people to make profits.

I'm so flabbergasted by this, you could not have be more wrong! Making
me think that you posting this utterly false interpretation of the
situation in Africa on purpose trying to come across like a troll in
order to generate some more traffic on this thread. Otherwise I have no
idea why you would post such an uneducated statement.....
Nick Hodges

Posts: 2,414
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 26, 2015 4:42 AM   in response to: Frans van Daalen in response to: Frans van Daalen
Frans van Daalen wrote:

I'm so flabbergasted by this, you could not have be more wrong!
Making me think that you posting this utterly false interpretation of
the situation in Africa on purpose trying to come across like a troll
in order to generate some more traffic on this thread. Otherwise I
have no idea why you would post such an uneducated statement.....

Nope, it's absolutely true. The fact that you are flabbergasted
indicates clearly that you don't know what is going on in Africa. You
should educate yourself.

--
Nick
Delphi Programming is Fun
Tony Bryer

Posts: 15
Registered: 10/2/02
Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 26, 2015 4:55 AM   in response to: Frans van Daalen in response to: Frans van Daalen
In article <721737 at forums dot embarcadero dot com>, Frans van Daalen wrote:
Nick Hodges schreef op 25-4-2015 om 12:32:

The reason that people are poor in Africa is because they make it
difficult for people to make profits.

I'm so flabbergasted by this, you could not have be more wrong! Making
me think that you posting this utterly false interpretation of the
situation in Africa on purpose trying to come across like a troll in
order to generate some more traffic on this thread. Otherwise I have no
idea why you would post such an uneducated statement.....

Wrong? Our software uses/has used components developed in a number of
European countries, USA, India and Australia, but nothing from any
African country. I may be showing my ignorance here, but I'm not aware of
any Africa-sourced Delphi components that are commercially available,
which is sad as I'd like to see trade rather than aid. Why?

--
Tony Bryer, Greentram Software Pty Ltd, Melbourne, Australia
'Software to build on' http://www.greentram.com
Nick Hodges

Posts: 2,414
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 26, 2015 4:56 AM   in response to: Tony Bryer in response to: Tony Bryer
Tony Bryer wrote:

I'd like to see trade rather than aid. Wh

You, sir, are a wise man.

--
Nick
Delphi Programming is Fun
Frans van Daalen

Posts: 29
Registered: 11/12/01
Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 27, 2015 2:30 PM   in response to: Tony Bryer in response to: Tony Bryer
Tony Bryer schreef op 26-4-2015 om 1:55:

Wrong? Our software uses/has used components developed in a number of
European countries, USA, India and Australia, but nothing from any
African country. I may be showing my ignorance here, but I'm not aware of
any Africa-sourced Delphi components that are commercially available,
which is sad as I'd like to see trade rather than aid. Why?
You did not even spend 5 seconds on the EMB site to find one....Have a
look at the technology Partner Directory (http://cartovcl.com/).
Or try to do a search for delphi jobs in afica, you will be surprised. I
had several African programmers working for me some time ago and some of
them were extremely good.
Ian Branch

Posts: 442
Registered: 9/23/99
Re: Paying for Bug Fixing - My thoughts
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  Posted: Apr 23, 2015 3:55 PM   in response to: Nick Hodges in response to: Nick Hodges
Nick Hodges wrote:

This ought to elicit a few comments.

http://www.codingindelphi.com/blog/you-are-going-to-pay-for-bug-fixes-and-youre-going-to-like-it/

Hi Nick,

Couldn't leave this one alone. Being 60+ and a programmer/consultant
of 35+ years I have seen many changes.

Overall I agree with the overall sentiment but disagree with some
specifics/terminology..

1. Subscriptions (Maintenance Agreements): I have always believed
these should represent the best value for the Customer but still be
viable for the Supplier. Sometimes they don't for one or both and in
most cases for entirely differnt reasons. I am happy with the
Subscription model proposed by EMB, PROVIDED it continues to represent
value to me.

2. Documentation: If electronic, needs to be in a form that is easily
readable, searchable and cross platform (PC, tablet, phone). I accept
that the days of physical manuals has past. I too have book shelves
full. However there is something about curling up with a good
book/manual to read/study. Whether that be at the desk, in bed, or on
the beach. The advent of tablet devices has made the transition from
hard to soft copy easier, providing the formating/functionality works
for the document/device. I have gotten used to/comfortable with
curling up with my iPad to read/study some documentation. Thank
goodness for DropBox..:-)

3. Paying for Bug Fixing: Again, as a purchaser /
developer-consultant I can see both sides of the equation, and, from
time to time have been 'difficult' on one side or the other...;-)

"It’s a silly thing to believe that the complex software that you buy
should be bug free." Sorry, and this is the response you are probably
expecting, believing or expecting that complex software should be bug
free is fair and reasonable. I recall the old comparison between
flying and medication. Is the failure and attendant loss of life of
one flight in 10000 acceptable? The issue is understanding that this
is not realistic with software without an enormous cost increase to the
base product. As you indicated, it does cost to do QA, despite all the
testing automation tools that are now available.

4. "Some will argue that a subscription model incentivizes companies
to care less about quality." And not without some justification. By
my perception I have seen this in the past. No names, no pack drill..

5. "It will incentivize them to care more about quality, because there
will be no more excuse not to increase quality." So, by implication,
the we had been receiving excuses rather than reasons from EMB? I
would flog my childern for that. Verbally of course...;-)

6. Change: Heraclitus is quoted as saying "Everything changes and
nothing stands still". This has morphed to "The only constant is
change", or words to that effect. We live in a constantly changing
world. We need to change and keep pace with it or stagnate. The
choice is yours..I choose to run with it.

7. "However, you’ll also be getting more frequent updates, more
frequent new features, higher quality, and more openness about the
future." I look forward to seeing the fruits of this. Preferably
before I retire from programming....;-)

Just some thoughts..

Regards,

Ian
Nick Hodges

Posts: 2,414
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: Paying for Bug Fixing - My thoughts
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  Posted: Apr 24, 2015 5:11 AM   in response to: Ian Branch in response to: Ian Branch
Ian Branch wrote:

Just some thoughts..

Indeed -- thanks for the thoughtful response. Well said.

--
Nick
Delphi Programming is Fun
Clement Doss

Posts: 133
Registered: 9/19/00
Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 23, 2015 4:00 PM   in response to: Nick Hodges in response to: Nick Hodges
Hi Nick,


I don't think the complains are about a subscription since most of us are already using other tools with subscription.
But the price of the subscription.
Since you're bringing Office365 and Adobe to the fight..

Office365 : Annual commitment (Business Essentials) US$5.00 / user /month
Annual commitment (Business ) US$8.25 / user /month
Annual commitment (Business Premium) US$12.50 / user /month

Adobe: Create Cloud Photography Plan : $9.99 month

And they are offering discounts...

You might, at this point, see where this is going. <g>

Clément
Eli M

Posts: 1,346
Registered: 11/9/13
Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 23, 2015 8:31 PM   in response to: Clement Doss in response to: Clement Doss
Adobe Flash CC (a competing cross platform dev tool) is $19.99/m. I'm paying it and I only use it every 2 months or so. Last I read Adobe had 2 million+ cloud subscribers and that was 2 years ago.

Clement Doss wrote:
Adobe: Create Cloud Photography Plan : $9.99 month
Nick Hodges

Posts: 2,414
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 24, 2015 5:11 AM   in response to: Clement Doss in response to: Clement Doss
Clement Doss wrote:

You might, at this point, see where this is going. <g>

We shall see.

--
Nick
Delphi Programming is Fun
Alex Belo

Posts: 626
Registered: 10/8/06
Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 23, 2015 8:52 PM   in response to: Nick Hodges in response to: Nick Hodges
Sometimes I suspect that they do bugs intentionally to sell updates.

I'd like to learn how to do this in my practice.

--
Alex
Gilbert Padilla

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Registered: 3/8/04
Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 24, 2015 5:51 PM   in response to: Alex Belo in response to: Alex Belo
Sometimes I suspect that they do bugs intentionally to sell updates.

I'd like to learn how to do this in my practice.

I don't know either but when oil prices were $120 my gas gallon was 3.60
when the oil price is at $60 my gas still at 3.60, I do not know how to
figure that out.
Nick Hodges

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Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 25, 2015 3:32 AM   in response to: Gilbert Padilla in response to: Gilbert Padilla
Gilbert Padilla wrote:


I don't know either but when oil prices were $120 my gas gallon was
3.60 when the oil price is at $60 my gas still at 3.60, I do not know
how to figure that out.

It's because the cost of producing something bears no relationship to
what can be charged for that item.

--
Nick
Delphi Programming is Fun
steven chesser

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Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 23, 2015 9:54 PM   in response to: Nick Hodges in response to: Nick Hodges
All programs have bugs... big or small..

But I except a company as big as EMB, and a product such as Delphi, the quality I would expect to be at a much higher standard than one
that one man company with a handful of customers kicks out.

When you spend a small mint to keep a small team of say five going with the latest and greatest and all that, year after year, you just kinda expect
stuff to work decently well out of the box with little hassle.. and when things break, they get fixed asap.

I guess as the development world keeps getting more and more complex on the dynamics of what we have deal with today, it is just never
going to get any better sadly. EMB has to rush out the next big thing before it is really "done" and start on the next thing to check it off a list before
repeating the painful process.

On the other note..

I am fine with downloading the software. Heck for quite a few years now, new desktop/laptops have removed the optical drive.

I am fine with no books. I love books, but when it comes to programming books and getting out dated, after so long, they become a waste.
Don't think many people go back to a Delphi 2 book to read something cause it was something so well written that it reminds them of happier days
of their youth :)

I just want something that works... if it costs more.. great... just for the love of god, put some quality into the craftsmanship.
Nick Hodges

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Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 24, 2015 5:12 AM   in response to: steven chesser in response to: steven chesser
steven chesser wrote:

EMB has to rush out the next big thing before it is really "done" and
start on the next thing to check it off a list before repeating the
painful process.

Under the subscription model, such a thing would be much easier and
much less painful for all involved.

--
Nick
Delphi Programming is Fun
Christopher Burke

Posts: 580
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Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 23, 2015 11:23 PM   in response to: Nick Hodges in response to: Nick Hodges
Nick Hodges <nickhodges at gmail dot com> wrote in
news:721457 at forums dot embarcadero dot com:

This ought to elicit a few comments.

http://www.codingindelphi.com/blog/you-are-going-to-pay-for-bug-fixes-a
nd-youre-going-to-like-it/

The only issue I have with some subscription models is that when your
subscription ends (or when the company goes bust) - you suddenly don't even
have the old buggy version of the software.

I think subscription (the Delphi model) is fine, but subscription the
Microsoft model (stop paying and you completely lose access to the
software) is not.
Bruce McGee

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Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 23, 2015 11:37 PM   in response to: Christopher Burke in response to: Christopher Burke
Christopher Burke wrote:

The only issue I have with some subscription models is that when your
subscription ends (or when the company goes bust) - you suddenly
don't even have the old buggy version of the software.

I think subscription (the Delphi model) is fine, but subscription the
Microsoft model (stop paying and you completely lose access to the
software) is not.

Agreed

--
Regards,
Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
Bruce McGee

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Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 23, 2015 11:38 PM   in response to: Christopher Burke in response to: Christopher Burke
Christopher Burke wrote:

The only issue I have with some subscription models is that when your
subscription ends (or when the company goes bust) - you suddenly
don't even have the old buggy version of the software.

I think subscription (the Delphi model) is fine, but subscription the
Microsoft model (stop paying and you completely lose access to the
software) is not.

Wait, does that mean you can't use VisualStudio after your MSDN
subscription expires any more?

--
Regards,
Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
Christopher Burke

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Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 24, 2015 3:59 AM   in response to: Bruce McGee in response to: Bruce McGee
Bruce McGee <bmcgee at glooscap dot com> wrote in news:721534
@forums.embarcadero.com:


Wait, does that mean you can't use VisualStudio after your MSDN
subscription expires any more?

I was referring to Office, not sure about VisualStudio.
Stefan Glienke

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Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 24, 2015 6:53 PM   in response to: Bruce McGee in response to: Bruce McGee
Wait, does that mean you can't use VisualStudio after your MSDN
subscription expires any more?

Nope, you can't. Happened to my coworkers. Something went wrong with the renewal and
they did not know until one morning their VS did not start up anymore. I think it had some
period where it ran offline until it required to check the subscription status again.
Konstantine Pou...

Posts: 128
Registered: 11/3/06
Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 25, 2015 10:01 AM   in response to: Stefan Glienke in response to: Stefan Glienke
Nope, you can't. Happened to my coworkers. Something went wrong with the renewal and

Yes you can if you had normal retail subscription.
You got perpetual license.

they did not know until one morning their VS did not start up anymore. I think it had some
period where it ran offline until it required to check the subscription status again.

There are some special volume / enterprise /whatever special kind of
licenses which may have the perpetual part removed. Maybe your covorkers
had something like that.
Bruce McGee

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Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 25, 2015 2:12 PM   in response to: Konstantine Pou... in response to: Konstantine Pou...
Konstantine Poukhov wrote:

Yes you can if you had normal retail subscription.
You got perpetual license.

Whew!

--
Regards,
Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
Luigi Sandon

Posts: 74
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Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 24, 2015 12:18 AM   in response to: Nick Hodges in response to: Nick Hodges

I'd agree but:

1) Paid fixes need to fully support a release for at least a 18-24 months timeframe, no less, and probably more. And even if newer releases are available.
2) I can no longer trust BorInCodeDero - it looks its shifts in policies are due to the need of more quick cash, not better products and customer support.

Paid support is not the subscription model. They are two very hortogonal concepts. With the subscription model you get a continuosly updated product, including new features and breaking changes.

It could be OK for some, it could be a no-go for others. Could I accept a continuosly updated Outlook? Maybe. Can I accept a continuosly updated Exchage or SQL Server? Of course, not, especially the latter. If an update breaks application running on them, it's a big issue. Those application are kept working for a much longer time and needs to be stable for an acceptable timeframe which is often measured in years.

Adobe is already experiencing something alike when updates break something in CC that was previously working and CC customers are left in dead water for a while until a fix comes. Or for example, Lightroom CC now supports only 64 bit OS, Win 7+ and the latest releases of OSX - still on a older system? Your pay for something you can't use (it was also a spectacula falure of the closed beta model, with the new GPU support not working on many systems, but that's another story)

Paid support means I buy release X, and I get support for n months for it regardless if version Y and Z etc. becomes available. Support means bugs are kept being fixed and maybe some improvements are introduced for version X and no breaking changes are introduced, unless really needed to fix a nasty bug. It's very, very different from the subscription model, the application is always the same, it just gets full maintenance for the contractual period. It also means when I submit a bug I get in contact with someone that will test it and tell me how the bug will be dealt with.

If in BorInCodeDero NewSpeak "paid support" really means "get the usual patches for the usual four months, than you have to switch to the new release if you want bug fixed", well, I guess a lot of people are not going to like it.
Dalija Prasnikar

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Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 24, 2015 1:19 AM   in response to: Nick Hodges in response to: Nick Hodges

Subscription model is fine as long as it does have
perpetual license and you actually get the bug fixes.
Also initial quality of the product would have to be much,
much higher than it is now with Delphi and bugs should
get fixed in more timely manner.

Of course, overcharging can also be issue...right now
in order to upgrade to Delphi with subscription you have
to pay for the full product/upgrade + subscription and that
can be kind of pricey. If EMBT wants to push subscriptions
they would have to include at least 1 year subscription with
full product and at least 6 months with upgrade without any
additional costs.

--
Dalija Prasnikar
Dalija Prasnikar

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Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 24, 2015 2:45 AM   in response to: Nick Hodges in response to: Nick Hodges

Subscription model is fine as long as it does have
perpetual license and you actually get the bug fixes.
Also initial quality of the product would have to be much,
much higher than it is now with Delphi and bugs should
get fixed in more timely manner.

Of course, overcharging can also be issue...right now
in order to upgrade to Delphi with subscription you have
to pay for the full product/upgrade + subscription and that
can be kind of pricey. If EMBT wants to push subscriptions
they would have to include at least 1 year subscription with
full product and at least 6 months with upgrade without any
additional costs.

--
Dalija Prasnikar
Frans van Daalen

Posts: 29
Registered: 11/12/01
Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 24, 2015 5:34 AM   in response to: Nick Hodges in response to: Nick Hodges
Nick Hodges schreef op 23-4-2015 om 11:08:

What does the subscription model changes for EMB besides possible more
revenue and/or increased profit? Why would a subscription model allow
EMB to increase quality and improve turn-around time for bugfixes?

I also don't understand the "economics caught up with the marketplace"
remakrs in your posting IMHO the actions you mentioned that are
implemented because of economics catching up with marketplace is more
about maximize shareholders value then anything else.
Nick Hodges

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Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 24, 2015 5:37 AM   in response to: Frans van Daalen in response to: Frans van Daalen
Frans van Daalen wrote:

I also don't understand the "economics caught up with the
marketplace" remakrs in your posting IMHO the actions you mentioned
that are implemented because of economics catching up with
marketplace is more about maximize shareholders value then anything
else.

That's a tautology. Maximizing shareholder value is what companies
exist to do. The only way to do that is minimize costs and maximize
revenues. With rare exceptions, the only way to do that is please
the customer.

--
Nick
Delphi Programming is Fun
Dalija Prasnikar

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Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 24, 2015 6:32 AM   in response to: Nick Hodges in response to: Nick Hodges
Nick Hodges wrote:
Frans van Daalen wrote:

I also don't understand the "economics caught up with the
marketplace" remakrs in your posting IMHO the actions you mentioned
that are implemented because of economics catching up with
marketplace is more about maximize shareholders value then anything
else.

That's a tautology. Maximizing shareholder value is what companies
exist to do. The only way to do that is minimize costs and maximize
revenues. With rare exceptions, the only way to do that is please
the customer.

I think you live in some parallel universe.... maybe pleasing the customer
works for local bakery where customer can easily go to another one if
not pleased with the product....

I haven't seen too much of pleasing the customers here for the last few years....
Of course, maybe I am the wrong kind of customer....

--
Dalija Prasnikar
Nick Hodges

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Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 24, 2015 7:15 AM   in response to: Dalija Prasnikar in response to: Dalija Prasnikar
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:

I haven't seen too much of pleasing the customers here for the last
few years...

Here? Of course EMBT has been pleasing the customer: THey've provided
Android, iOS, and OSX development. Developers are demanding this type
of solution.

Of course, maybe I am the wrong kind of customer....

Maybe. No company can please everyone, I suppose.

--
Nick
Delphi Programming is Fun
Dalija Prasnikar

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Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 24, 2015 10:31 AM   in response to: Nick Hodges in response to: Nick Hodges
Nick Hodges wrote:
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:

I haven't seen too much of pleasing the customers here for the last
few years...

Here? Of course EMBT has been pleasing the customer: THey've provided
Android, iOS, and OSX development. Developers are demanding this type
of solution.

Delivering the solution and pleasing the customers with that solution are two
different things...


Of course, maybe I am the wrong kind of customer....

Maybe. No company can please everyone, I suppose.

I used to say that I would be willing to pay for bug fix release, but the more I think
about it, I would be willing to pay for bug fixes once in a while, maybe every few
years of so, but then it would really have to be super polished release. Not one where
bugs are popping out of every corner, and where you fix 1 bug only to create 10 new ones.

Actually, I would be willing to pay for bug fixes that will happen before final product
reaches me. When you look closely, paying only for bug fixes can work for only for
very short period of time. What people are willing to pay for are working features and
improvements that bring them benefit and shorten time to develop their products with
less bugs. Thinking that anything else can work in the long run would be really far
from the truth.

--
Dalija Prasnikar
Nick Hodges

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Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 24, 2015 11:24 AM   in response to: Dalija Prasnikar in response to: Dalija Prasnikar
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:


Delivering the solution and pleasing the customers with that solution
are two different things...

Correct. And they have done very well with that solution it seems.

Actually, I would be willing to pay for bug fixes that will happen
before final product reaches me. When you look closely, paying only
for bug fixes can work for only for very short period of time. What
people are willing to pay for are working features and improvements
that bring them benefit and shorten time to develop their products
with less bugs. Thinking that anything else can work in the long run
would be really far from the truth.

I'm convinced that this is exactly what software companies want to do,
and that they will soon realize that subscriptions, maybe even monthly
subscriptions, depending on the business, are the way to do this.

--
Nick
Delphi Programming is Fun

Nick Hodges

Posts: 2,414
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Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 24, 2015 11:20 AM   in response to: Dalija Prasnikar in response to: Dalija Prasnikar
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:

I haven't seen too much of pleasing the customers here for the last
few years...

Here? Of course EMBT has been pleasing the customer: THey've provided
Android, iOS, and OSX development. Developers are demanding this type
of solution.

Of course, maybe I am the wrong kind of customer....

Maybe. No company can please everyone, I suppose.

--
Nick
Delphi Programming is Fun
Luigi Sandon

Posts: 74
Registered: 2/22/08
Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 24, 2015 6:48 AM   in response to: Nick Hodges in response to: Nick Hodges
That's a tautology. Maximizing shareholder value is what companies

http://www.forbes.com/sites/stevedenning/2011/11/28/maximizing-shareholder-value-the-dumbest-idea-in-the-world/

revenues. With rare exceptions, the only way to do that is please

As the article says, the main focus of a company should be creating and maintaining paying customers. That's the only way a company can survive, and also paying its shareholders.

If to make shareholders happy for a while you crush the company customer base, the company is doomed. And "minimize costs and maximize revenues" is not always the smartest way to create and maintain customers, often it goes often in the other way. Investments, especially good medium-long term investments, is what can create real value for a company, including good products that attract and keep customers. The shortsighted "minimize costs and maximize revenues" will make some shareholders and fatty stock option holders happy, until they sell because the company is going havoc. But true investor are rare to find today... far easier to milk the cow until the cow dies, than find another cow...

Unless you're so lucky to have a captive market where you can keep on making customers disappointed but they are forced to use your products...
Frans van Daalen

Posts: 29
Registered: 11/12/01
Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 24, 2015 8:12 AM   in response to: Nick Hodges in response to: Nick Hodges
Nick Hodges schreef op 24-4-2015 om 2:37:
Frans van Daalen wrote:

I also don't understand the "economics caught up with the
marketplace" remakrs in your posting IMHO the actions you mentioned
that are implemented because of economics catching up with
marketplace is more about maximize shareholders value then anything
else.

That's a tautology. Maximizing shareholder value is what companies
exist to do. The only way to do that is minimize costs and maximize
revenues. With rare exceptions, the only way to do that is please
the customer.

"There is only one valid definition of a business purpose: to create a
customer.

Peter Drucker, The Practice of Management"

http://www.forbes.com/sites/stevedenning/2011/11/28/maximizing-shareholder-value-the-dumbest-idea-in-the-world/

[quote]He might also show how the shift from maximizing shareholder
value to delighting the customer involves a major power shift within the
organization. Instead of the company being dominated by salesmen who can
pump up the numbers and the accountants who can come up with cuts needed
to make the quarterly targets, those who add genuine value to the
customer have to re-occupy their rightful place.[/quote]
Dominique Willems

Posts: 591
Registered: 10/26/99
Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 24, 2015 9:46 AM   in response to: Frans van Daalen in response to: Frans van Daalen
Excellent post.
Frans van Daalen

Posts: 29
Registered: 11/12/01
Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 24, 2015 1:15 PM   in response to: Nick Hodges in response to: Nick Hodges
Nick Hodges schreef op 24-4-2015 om 2:37:

....The only way to do that is minimize costs and maximize
revenues....

Still would like to know what your thoughts are about the other part of
the posting:

"What does the subscription model changes for EMB besides possible more
revenue and/or increased profit? Why would a subscription model allow
EMB to increase quality and improve turn-around time for bugfixes?"
Nick Hodges

Posts: 2,414
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 24, 2015 1:47 PM   in response to: Frans van Daalen in response to: Frans van Daalen
Frans van Daalen wrote:

"What does the subscription model changes for EMB besides possible
more revenue and/or increased profit? Why would a subscription model
allow EMB to increase quality and improve turn-around time for
bugfixes?"

First of all, if a business can do something that will increase
profits, they absolutely should do it. If a subscription model will
increase profits, they'd be irresponsible not to move to that.

Second, as I argued in the article, which I'm sure you read, the
subscription model removes pressure for "one big shipping event where
everything has to ship or wait a whole year". This reduces shipping
pressure overall, which means that it is more likely that things will
ship when they are more mature than they otherwise might.

In addition, subscribers put more pressure on a company to improve
quality than do people who are three versions behind. People who are
actively invested and who are regularly paying provide more of an
incentive to improve quality.

I want to point out that I haven't, either here or in the article,
referred to EMBT. What I wrote is true for software companies beyond
just EMBT, hence my lack of specificity. Don't assume I'm talking just
about EMBT.

--
Nick
Delphi Programming is Fun
Frans van Daalen

Posts: 29
Registered: 11/12/01
Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 24, 2015 2:38 PM   in response to: Nick Hodges in response to: Nick Hodges
Nick Hodges schreef op 24-4-2015 om 10:47:
Frans van Daalen wrote:

"What does the subscription model changes for EMB besides possible
more revenue and/or increased profit? Why would a subscription model
allow EMB to increase quality and improve turn-around time for
bugfixes?"

First of all, if a business can do something that will increase
profits, they absolutely should do it. If a subscription model will
increase profits, they'd be irresponsible not to move to that.

I'm lost for words here...you really believe this? For you there is no
"enough is enough" or "price is based on it's value" ? Only increasing
profits ad infinitum whatever it takes?


Second, as I argued in the article, which I'm sure you read, the
subscription model removes pressure for "one big shipping event where
everything has to ship or wait a whole year". This reduces shipping
pressure overall, which means that it is more likely that things will
ship when they are more mature than they otherwise might.

If I understand correctly you say they will ship less frequently because
there is no more fixed release cycle date pressure?


In addition, subscribers put more pressure on a company to improve
quality than do people who are three versions behind. People who are
actively invested and who are regularly paying provide more of an
incentive to improve quality.

Why would this put more pressure on the company? The customer has to pay
anyway they can not walk away any more. In the non-subscription model
they could put pressure by not buying an new version. (voting with their
money)

In fact I would argue that when the subscriber finally decides he had
enough it's very unlikely he will ever return where as with upgrade/new
version model the release is always a good moment for the customer to
reflect an decide over and over again if he is willing to buy into the
new version or continue with the old version until any new version is
what he wants. A subscriber walks away to never return.


I want to point out that I haven't, either here or in the article,
referred to EMBT. What I wrote is true for software companies beyond
just EMBT, hence my lack of specificity. Don't assume I'm talking just
about EMBT.

I'm surprised that find that in you answer there is no answer to the "
how will it allow EMBT to increase quality and improve turn-around time
for bugfixes", you are posting your thoughts here on the EMBT server.....
Nick Hodges

Posts: 2,414
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 25, 2015 3:23 AM   in response to: Frans van Daalen in response to: Frans van Daalen
Frans van Daalen wrote:

I'm lost for words here...you really believe this? For you there is
no "enough is enough" or "price is based on it's value" ? Only
increasing profits ad infinitum whatever it takes?

Yes, that's what businesses do. They exist to increase profits.

My astonishment in the naivete of people on this score is endless. I
should know better, but I continue to be astonished.

If I understand correctly you say they will ship less frequently
because there is no more fixed release cycle date pressure?

No, they will likely ship more frequently, including more updates. A
subscription model allows them to sidestep all kinds of accounting
rules that make frequent shipping very difficult.

A subscriber walks away to never return.

Exactly my point. The motivation is even stronger to keep the
subscribing customer happy.


--
Nick
Delphi Programming is Fun

Wagner Landgraf

Posts: 47
Registered: 9/10/07
Re: Paying for Bug Fixing
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  Posted: Apr 25, 2015 6:24 PM   in response to: Nick Hodges in response to: Nick Hodges
Nick Hodges wrote:
Frans van Daalen wrote:

I'm lost for words here...you really believe this? For you there is
no "enough is enough" or "price is based on it's value" ? Only
increasing profits ad infinitum whatever it takes?

Yes, that's what businesses do. They exist to increase profits.

My astonishment in the naivete of people on this score is endless. I
should know better, but I continue to be astonished.

Sorry, but the "naivete" here is just because you oversimplify your vision of "business". It's like saying all politicians are corrupt and just work based on money, bribes and payment from the big players and if you don't believe this you are a "naivete".

Or, in another analogy, as if you say the financial objective of every person in the world is increase their profit/assets.

Do you know there are companies that are created as "non-profitable" companies, right? Just like people, a company needs of course a minimum amount of money and profit to operate. That doesn't mean that all companies just exist to create more and more money ad infinitum with no other thing in mind.

I've been running companies for more than 15 years (have you?) and although profit is of course important I never try to increase my profit no matter what. There are many other objectives to be considered: customers, employees, etc..