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Thread: As of XE8 Update Subscription is mandatory for any fixes/updates



Permlink Replies: 149 - Last Post: May 12, 2015 6:06 AM Last Post By: Nick Hodges
Dalija Prasnikar

Posts: 2,325
Registered: 11/9/99
As of XE8 Update Subscription is mandatory for any fixes/updates
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  Posted: Apr 8, 2015 11:55 AM
Just warning for people that might missed it.

As of XE8 you will need to have active Update Subscription (maintenance, SA)
contract if you wish to receive any updates and/or hotfixes even for current version.

That makes purchasing Update Subscription almost mandatory.

https://plus.google.com/+AndreaRaimondi/posts/BLRD3Bjnbab

Marco Cantù:
"As for the subscription, you need it for getting updates, like a future Update 1.
New rule, might not like, but that is part of the update subscription model we are
pushing forward. It is "almost" mandatory..."

--
Dalija Prasnikar
Dan Ridenhour

Posts: 46
Registered: 8/21/08
Re: As of XE8 Update Subscription is mandatory for any fixes/updates
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  Posted: Apr 8, 2015 12:17 PM   in response to: Dalija Prasnikar in response to: Dalija Prasnikar
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:
Just warning for people that might missed it.

As of XE8 you will need to have active Update Subscription (maintenance, SA)
contract if you wish to receive any updates and/or hotfixes even for current version.

That makes purchasing Update Subscription almost mandatory.

https://plus.google.com/+AndreaRaimondi/posts/BLRD3Bjnbab

Marco Cantù:
"As for the subscription, you need it for getting updates, like a future Update 1.
New rule, might not like, but that is part of the update subscription model we are
pushing forward. It is "almost" mandatory..."

That is a nice encouragement to be lax on quality control. Since initial releases always have bugs... hell they often have bugs from previous versions still in them... it only encourages people to buy an SA to be assured they can use the product they already bought. Nice racket. Its the opposite of a new car warranty... instead of giving you assurances that you made a sound purchase by promising to fix problems that arise in a set amount of time, they are saying... any problems that come along your SOL unless you buy the extended warranty.


--
Dalija Prasnikar
Dalija Prasnikar

Posts: 2,325
Registered: 11/9/99
Re: As of XE8 Update Subscription is mandatory for any fixes/updates
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  Posted: Apr 8, 2015 12:37 PM   in response to: Dan Ridenhour in response to: Dan Ridenhour
Dan Ridenhour wrote:
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:
Just warning for people that might missed it.

As of XE8 you will need to have active Update Subscription (maintenance, SA)
contract if you wish to receive any updates and/or hotfixes even for current version.

That makes purchasing Update Subscription almost mandatory.

https://plus.google.com/+AndreaRaimondi/posts/BLRD3Bjnbab

Marco Cantù:
"As for the subscription, you need it for getting updates, like a future Update 1.
New rule, might not like, but that is part of the update subscription model we are
pushing forward. It is "almost" mandatory..."

That is a nice encouragement to be lax on quality control. Since initial releases always have bugs... hell they often have bugs from previous versions still in them... it only encourages people to buy an SA to be assured they can use the product they already bought. Nice racket. Its the opposite of a new car warranty... instead of giving you assurances that you made a sound purchase by promising to fix problems that arise in a set amount of time, they are saying... any problems that come along your SOL unless you buy the extended warranty.

Unfortunately, I cannot say that I am surprised with this development of things...

Next big thing will be expiring licenses. Mark my words.

--
Dalija Prasnikar
Jeff Williams

Posts: 32
Registered: 4/19/10
Re: As of XE8 Update Subscription is mandatory for any fixes/updates
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  Posted: Apr 9, 2015 4:18 PM   in response to: Dalija Prasnikar in response to: Dalija Prasnikar
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:

Next big thing will be expiring licenses. Mark my words.

--
Dalija Prasnikar

That would be where I'd get off the train, if it should come to pass.
Dan Barclay

Posts: 889
Registered: 11/9/03
Re: As of XE8 Update Subscription is mandatory for any fixes/updates
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  Posted: Apr 9, 2015 8:32 PM   in response to: Jeff Williams in response to: Jeff Williams
Jeff Williams wrote:
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:

Next big thing will be expiring licenses. Mark my words.

--
Dalija Prasnikar

That would be where I'd get off the train, if it should come to pass.

That, actually, is a scary thought for a developer tool. Wow.

Even subscription is difficult to swallow for large code bases. You don't try upgrading at every tool release if you have a large app. We do test compiles, but don't adopt every release as "production" (only upgrading when there is a compelling reason). I know some do (particularly "early adopter" types), but most shops simply don't do that.

Dan
Dalija Prasnikar

Posts: 2,325
Registered: 11/9/99
Re: As of XE8 Update Subscription is mandatory for any fixes/updates
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  Posted: Apr 9, 2015 11:07 PM   in response to: Jeff Williams in response to: Jeff Williams
Jeff Williams wrote:
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:

Next big thing will be expiring licenses. Mark my words.

--
Dalija Prasnikar

That would be where I'd get off the train, if it should come to pass.

Me too. That would be completely unacceptable.

--
Dalija Prasnikar
John Friel III

Posts: 4
Registered: 9/10/04
Re: As of XE8 Update Subscription is mandatory for any fixes/updates
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  Posted: Apr 10, 2015 6:59 AM   in response to: Jeff Williams in response to: Jeff Williams
That would be where I'd get off the train, if it should come to pass.

I got off the train after XE and I can honestly say I saved a TON of money.
My VCL apps work just fine and DevExpress has been worth it.
Mike Margerum

Posts: 590
Registered: 12/1/99
Re: As of XE8 Update Subscription is mandatory for any fixes/updates
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  Posted: Apr 8, 2015 3:42 PM   in response to: Dan Ridenhour in response to: Dan Ridenhour
That is a nice encouragement to be lax on quality control. Since initial releases always have bugs... hell they often have bugs from previous versions still in them... it only encourages people to buy an SA to be assured they can use the product they already bought. Nice racket. Its the opposite of a new car warranty... instead of giving you assurances that you made a sound purchase by promising to fix problems that arise in a set amount of time, they are saying... any problems that come along your
SOL unless you buy the extended warranty.


--
Dalija Prasnikar

I wish they would just go subscription only and get it over with. Then
they can focus on quality/bug fixes and less about adding new shiny
things to the data sheet to sell the next upgrade.

Bruce McGee

Posts: 1,716
Registered: 9/30/99
Re: As of XE8 Update Subscription is mandatory for any fixes/updates
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  Posted: Apr 9, 2015 3:02 PM   in response to: Mike Margerum in response to: Mike Margerum
Mike Margerum wrote:

I wish they would just go subscription only and get it over with.
Then they can focus on quality/bug fixes and less about adding new
shiny things to the data sheet to sell the next upgrade.

I think that's where they are going.

--
Regards,
Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
Nick Hodges

Posts: 2,414
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: As of XE8 Update Subscription is mandatory for any fixes/updates
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  Posted: Apr 10, 2015 5:34 AM   in response to: Bruce McGee in response to: Bruce McGee
Bruce McGee wrote:

I think that's where they are going.

I think it's a win/win move for them and us, though. It's a much
better way to run things.

--
Nick
Delphi Programming is Fun
Markus Humm

Posts: 5,113
Registered: 11/9/03
Re: As of XE8 Update Subscription is mandatory for any fixes/updates
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  Posted: Apr 13, 2015 2:12 PM   in response to: Nick Hodges in response to: Nick Hodges
Am 10.04.2015 um 14:34 schrieb Nick Hodges:
Bruce McGee wrote:

I think that's where they are going.

I think it's a win/win move for them and us, though. It's a much
better way to run things.

Depends. For real goods at least here in Germany you have three options
if they should be flawed, but it is for the vendor to decide which one
to give you:

1. exchange the defective product by a non defective one
2. refund parts of the price
3. refund the full price, in turn the buyer has to give the defective
product back to the seller

Within 6 months after purchase the vendor would need to prove, that the
fault in the product wasn't there when he shipped it, after that you
have to prove that it was already faulty when you got it.

Greetings

Markus
Nick Hodges

Posts: 2,414
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: As of XE8 Update Subscription is mandatory for any fixes/updates
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  Posted: Apr 14, 2015 11:44 AM   in response to: Markus Humm in response to: Markus Humm
Markus Humm wrote:


Within 6 months after purchase the vendor would need to prove, that
the fault in the product wasn't there when he shipped it, after that
you have to prove that it was already faulty when you got it.

All non-trivial software is faulty.

--
Nick
Delphi Programming is Fun
Christopher Burke

Posts: 580
Registered: 9/25/99
Re: As of XE8 Update Subscription is mandatory for any fixes/updates
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  Posted: Apr 14, 2015 12:14 PM   in response to: Nick Hodges in response to: Nick Hodges
Nick Hodges <nickhodges at gmail dot com> wrote in news:720338
@forums.embarcadero.com:

All non-trivial software is faulty.

One of my early lecturers (Doctor Thomas Downs) wrote one of the early
papers on a proof for that.

Apparently it can even be proven with enough maths :)
Quentin Correll


Posts: 2,412
Registered: 12/1/99
Re: As of XE8 Update Subscription is mandatory for any fixes/updates
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  Posted: Apr 14, 2015 2:15 PM   in response to: Nick Hodges in response to: Nick Hodges
Nick,

| All non-trivial software is faulty.

;-)

--

Q -- XanaNews 1.19.1.372 - 2015-04-14 14:15:18
Brandon Staggs

Posts: 683
Registered: 3/3/01
Re: As of XE8 Update Subscription is mandatory for any fixes/updates
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  Posted: Apr 14, 2015 2:31 PM   in response to: Nick Hodges in response to: Nick Hodges
"Nick Hodges" wrote on Tue, 14 Apr 2015 11:44:17 -0700:

Markus Humm wrote:


Within 6 months after purchase the vendor would need to prove, that
the fault in the product wasn't there when he shipped it, after that
you have to prove that it was already faulty when you got it.

All non-trivial software is faulty.

Very true!

--
Brandon Staggs
StudyLamp Software LLC
http://www.studylamp.com
Van Swofford

Posts: 397
Registered: 6/28/03
Re: As of XE8 Update Subscription is mandatory for any fixes/updates
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  Posted: Apr 14, 2015 2:56 PM   in response to: Nick Hodges in response to: Nick Hodges
Nick Hodges wrote:

Markus Humm wrote:


Within 6 months after purchase the vendor would need to prove, that
the fault in the product wasn't there when he shipped it, after that
you have to prove that it was already faulty when you got it.

All non-trivial software is faulty.

And all non-faulty software is trivial. :-)

--
Cheers,
Van

"Good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad
judgment." - Will Rogers
Quentin Correll


Posts: 2,412
Registered: 12/1/99
Re: As of XE8 Update Subscription is mandatory for any fixes/updates
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  Posted: Apr 14, 2015 6:30 PM   in response to: Van Swofford in response to: Van Swofford
Van,

| | All non-trivial software is faulty.
|
| And all non-faulty software is trivial. :-)

I like that. <g>

--

Q -- XanaNews 1.19.1.372 - 2015-04-14 18:30:42
Dan Barclay

Posts: 889
Registered: 11/9/03
Re: As of XE8 Update Subscription is mandatory for any fixes/updates
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  Posted: Apr 14, 2015 6:57 PM   in response to: Quentin Correll in response to: Quentin Correll
Quentin Correll wrote:
Van,

| | All non-trivial software is faulty.
|
| And all non-faulty software is trivial. :-)

I like that. <g>

So, by extrapolation, this place is very non trivial, eh?

I presume it's OK to speak Canadian here, eh?

Dan
Van Swofford

Posts: 397
Registered: 6/28/03
Re: As of XE8 Update Subscription is mandatory for any fixes/updates
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  Posted: Apr 14, 2015 7:24 PM   in response to: Dan Barclay in response to: Dan Barclay
Dan Barclay wrote:

I presume it's OK to speak Canadian here, eh?

Sure, as long as it's OK to speak hillbilly here, too, eh y'all?

--
Cheers,
Van

"Good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad
judgment." - Will Rogers
Dan Barclay

Posts: 889
Registered: 11/9/03
Re: As of XE8 Update Subscription is mandatory for any fixes/updates
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  Posted: Apr 14, 2015 9:32 PM   in response to: Van Swofford in response to: Van Swofford
Van Swofford wrote:
Dan Barclay wrote:

I presume it's OK to speak Canadian here, eh?

Sure, as long as it's OK to speak hillbilly here, too, eh y'all?

Much of my family is Hicks. My mother would tell you that when you start talkin' about country Hicks, you'd better be smilin'.

She wasn't jokin', ya'll.

Dan
Van Swofford

Posts: 397
Registered: 6/28/03
Re: As of XE8 Update Subscription is mandatory for any fixes/updates
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  Posted: Apr 15, 2015 8:21 AM   in response to: Dan Barclay in response to: Dan Barclay
Dan Barclay wrote:

Much of my family is Hicks. My mother would tell you that when you
start talkin' about country Hicks, you'd better be smilin'.

She wasn't jokin', ya'll.

Around here (Nashville), it is said that you can say anything you want
about anybody, as long as you end the sentence with "bless his heart".

--
Cheers,
Van

"Good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad
judgment." - Will Rogers
Quentin Correll


Posts: 2,412
Registered: 12/1/99
Re: As of XE8 Update Subscription is mandatory for any fixes/updates
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  Posted: Apr 15, 2015 2:51 PM   in response to: Dan Barclay in response to: Dan Barclay
Dan,

| So, by extrapolation, this place is very non trivial, eh?

Yep. ;-)

| I presume it's OK to speak Canadian here, eh?

Sure. I lived in Ottawa for a couple of years, so I understand "...,
eh." <g>

--

Q -- XanaNews 1.19.1.372 - 2015-04-15 14:48:48

Rudy Velthuis (...


Posts: 7,731
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: As of XE8 Update Subscription is mandatory for any fixes/updates
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  Posted: May 7, 2015 9:56 AM   in response to: Van Swofford in response to: Van Swofford
Van Swofford wrote:

All non-trivial software is faulty.

And all non-faulty software is trivial. :-)

Nice, but not quite true.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"The Pope!?! How many divisions has he got?"
-- Joseph Stalin
Arthur Hoornweg

Posts: 414
Registered: 6/2/98
Re: As of XE8 Update Subscription is mandatory for any fixes/updates
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  Posted: May 12, 2015 5:53 AM   in response to: Nick Hodges in response to: Nick Hodges
Nick Hodges wrote:

All non-trivial software is faulty.

Sure. But in order to "work as advertized" the Delphi RTL/VCL should, at the very least, fulfill the API's it publishes. Sometimes new bugs are introduced into functions that used to work fine (for example, this may happen if an ASM function gets replaced by a pure pascal function that wasn't tested properly). I'd expect the manufacturer to fix such bugs and maybe apologize for the inconvenience instead of requiring payment.


I would be much more in favour of a (subscription model) Delphi that evolves gradually with small weekly updates rather than a disruptive release every six months. As far as I'm concerned, the BPL package format is totally dead because it becomes incompatible every six months.

Nick Hodges

Posts: 2,414
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: As of XE8 Update Subscription is mandatory for any fixes/updates
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  Posted: May 12, 2015 6:06 AM   in response to: Arthur Hoornweg in response to: Arthur Hoornweg
Arthur Hoornweg wrote:

I'd expect the manufacturer to fix such bugs and maybe apologize for
the inconvenience instead of requiring payment.

That was (hopefully) one of the main points of my blog post: That
you'll get the fix and the apology, but only as part of a subscription.
Whether you want to view that as "paying for bug fixes" is up to you.

Once again, I want to point out that my post referred to no particular
company, save the MS and Adobe examples.

--
Nick
Delphi Programming is Fun
Quentin Correll


Posts: 2,412
Registered: 12/1/99
Re: As of XE8 Update Subscription is mandatory for any fixes/updates
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  Posted: Apr 8, 2015 12:20 PM   in response to: Dalija Prasnikar in response to: Dalija Prasnikar
Dalija,

| Just warning for people that might missed it.

Good post!

Like you, I've had SA almost "forever." It's really been the
only-way-to-go for a long time.

--

Q -- XanaNews 1.19.1.372 - 2015-04-08 12:19:35

Dalija Prasnikar

Posts: 2,325
Registered: 11/9/99
Re: As of XE8 Update Subscription is mandatory for any fixes/updates
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  Posted: Apr 8, 2015 12:35 PM   in response to: Quentin Correll in response to: Quentin Correll
Quentin Correll wrote:
Dalija,

| Just warning for people that might missed it.

Good post!

Like you, I've had SA almost "forever." It's really been the
only-way-to-go for a long time.

I have abandoned my SA subscription some time ago. Last
version I have is XE4. Missed XE5 by two days.

While it is nice having new versions, upgrade pace became
too harsh, with new unexpected issues, and far too less value
for money, since I have PRO SKU. I cannot say that I regret
that decision, at least not from business POV.

If PRO had mobile development included (even though I would
not use it for various reasons), I would have kept my SA.

My future Delphi upgrades will be exclusively driven by features
that I really need and that really work.

--
Dalija Prasnikar
Todd Frankson

Posts: 39
Registered: 12/19/14
Re: As of XE8 Update Subscription is mandatory for any fixes/updates
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  Posted: Apr 8, 2015 12:54 PM   in response to: Dalija Prasnikar in response to: Dalija Prasnikar
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:
Quentin Correll wrote:
Dalija,


My future Delphi upgrades will be exclusively driven by features
that I really need and that really work.

--
Dalija Prasnikar

Mine will be based on FAIR upgrade pricing...
Bought XE7 not 6 months ago....They want me to pay almost New User pricing for XE8.

I think I paid $100 for upgrades from D2-3,D3-D4,D4-D5,D5-D7 and then $200 for D7-D2006.

Sad there are like 100 bugs listed already on a product they want 2400 for....
Rudy Velthuis (...


Posts: 7,731
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: As of XE8 Update Subscription is mandatory for any fixes/updates
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  Posted: Apr 23, 2015 2:31 PM   in response to: Todd Frankson in response to: Todd Frankson
Todd Frankson wrote:

Bought XE7 not 6 months ago....They want me to pay almost New User
pricing for XE8.

Huh?

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"If we don't believe in freedom of expression for people we
despise, we don't believe in it at all."
-- Noam Chomsky

Todd Frankson

Posts: 39
Registered: 12/19/14
Re: As of XE8 Update Subscription is mandatory for any fixes/updates
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  Posted: Apr 27, 2015 7:01 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:
Todd Frankson wrote:

Bought XE7 not 6 months ago....They want me to pay almost New User
pricing for XE8.

Huh?

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de


Purchased XE7 in Nov 2014....

My Upgrade quote to XE8 was almost 2400 USD less than a week after release.

That's the price for new users right off Embarcadero's buy it online page. I even emailed the page to the sales rep.

Since then they have tried to knock down a few hundred by removing the Support subscription (Like that does any good with the new "business model").
Rudy Velthuis (...


Posts: 7,731
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: As of XE8 Update Subscription is mandatory for any fixes/updates
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  Posted: May 7, 2015 9:59 AM   in response to: Todd Frankson in response to: Todd Frankson
Todd Frankson wrote:

Bought XE7 not 6 months ago....They want me to pay almost New User
pricing for XE8.

No, they don't. Upgrade is much cheaper.

https://store.embarcadero.com/542/purl-rbanner
--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"It's not that I'm afraid to die, I just don't want to be there
when it happens." -- Woody Allen, From 'Death' 1975.
Christopher Burke

Posts: 580
Registered: 9/25/99
Re: As of XE8 Update Subscription is mandatory for any fixes/updates
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  Posted: Apr 8, 2015 6:21 PM   in response to: Dalija Prasnikar in response to: Dalija Prasnikar
Dalija Prasnikar <> wrote in news:719775 at forums dot embarcadero dot com:

If PRO had mobile development included (even though I would
not use it for various reasons), I would have kept my SA.

Apparently XE8 Pro does include mobile development:

http://www.embarcadero.com/products/rad-studio/product-editions
Dave White

Posts: 13
Registered: 10/19/99
Re: As of XE8 Update Subscription is mandatory for any fixes/updates
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  Posted: Apr 8, 2015 8:14 PM   in response to: Christopher Burke in response to: Christopher Burke
On 4/8/2015 8:21 PM, Christopher Burke wrote:
Dalija Prasnikar <> wrote in news:719775 at forums dot embarcadero dot com:

If PRO had mobile development included (even though I would
not use it for various reasons), I would have kept my SA.

Apparently XE8 Pro does include mobile development:

http://www.embarcadero.com/products/rad-studio/product-editions

I have Delphi XE8 Pro installed and there's no mobile support included,
just Win32 Win64 and OSX - false advertising?
Christopher Burke

Posts: 580
Registered: 9/25/99
Re: As of XE8 Update Subscription is mandatory for any fixes/updates
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  Posted: Apr 8, 2015 9:59 PM   in response to: Dave White in response to: Dave White
Dave White <dwhite at pacelabs dot com> wrote in news:719846
@forums.embarcadero.com:

On 4/8/2015 8:21 PM, Christopher Burke wrote:
Dalija Prasnikar <> wrote in news:719775 at forums dot embarcadero dot com:

If PRO had mobile development included (even though I would
not use it for various reasons), I would have kept my SA.

Apparently XE8 Pro does include mobile development:

http://www.embarcadero.com/products/rad-studio/product-editions

I have Delphi XE8 Pro installed and there's no mobile support included,
just Win32 Win64 and OSX - false advertising?

Well - screen shot it, and email them - see how well you go :)
Robert Evans

Posts: 114
Registered: 10/16/99
Re: As of XE8 Update Subscription is mandatory for any fixes/updates
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  Posted: Apr 9, 2015 12:11 AM   in response to: Christopher Burke in response to: Christopher Burke
In article <719850 at forums dot embarcadero dot com>, Christopher Burke
<newsgroups at craznar dot com> wrote
Dave White <dwhite at pacelabs dot com> wrote in news:719846
@forums.embarcadero.com:

On 4/8/2015 8:21 PM, Christopher Burke wrote:
Dalija Prasnikar <> wrote in news:719775 at forums dot embarcadero dot com:

If PRO had mobile development included (even though I would
not use it for various reasons), I would have kept my SA.

Apparently XE8 Pro does include mobile development:

http://www.embarcadero.com/products/rad-studio/product-editions

I have Delphi XE8 Pro installed and there's no mobile support included,
just Win32 Win64 and OSX - false advertising?

Well - screen shot it, and email them - see how well you go :)

At the risk of stating the obvious, RAD Studio XE8 Pro and Delphi XE8
Pro are not the same product.

--
Bob Evans
Christopher Burke

Posts: 580
Registered: 9/25/99
Re: As of XE8 Update Subscription is mandatory for any fixes/updates
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  Posted: Apr 9, 2015 12:27 AM   in response to: Robert Evans in response to: Robert Evans
Robert Evans <newsabuse036 at deleteifspam dot lichtech dot co dot uk> wrote in
news:719857 at forums dot embarcadero dot com:

At the risk of stating the obvious, RAD Studio XE8 Pro and Delphi XE8
Pro are not the same product.

That is indeed obvious, however has RAD Studio in the past had Mobile
included?

If so - I wasn't aware of that.
Robert Evans

Posts: 114
Registered: 10/16/99
Re: As of XE8 Update Subscription is mandatory for any fixes/updates
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  Posted: Apr 9, 2015 10:16 AM   in response to: Christopher Burke in response to: Christopher Burke
In article <719858 at forums dot embarcadero dot com>, Christopher Burke
<newsgroups at craznar dot com> wrote
Robert Evans <newsabuse036 at deleteifspam dot lichtech dot co dot uk> wrote in
news:719857 at forums dot embarcadero dot com:
At the risk of stating the obvious, RAD Studio XE8 Pro and Delphi XE8
Pro are not the same product.

That is indeed obvious,

Yes, but not to everyone it seems.

however has RAD Studio in the past had Mobile included?

If so - I wasn't aware of that.

My understanding/recollection is that mobile development was previously
included in the RAD Studio Pro SKU but was an optional extra for the
Delphi Pro SKU.

--
Bob Evans
Bruce McGee

Posts: 1,716
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Re: As of XE8 Update Subscription is mandatory for any fixes/updates
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  Posted: Apr 9, 2015 3:06 PM   in response to: Christopher Burke in response to: Christopher Burke
Christopher Burke wrote:

Apparently XE8 Pro does include mobile development:

http://www.embarcadero.com/products/rad-studio/product-editions

Rad Studio Professional has had this since it was released.

Delphi Professional doesn't.

--
Regards,
Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
Dalija Prasnikar

Posts: 2,325
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Re: As of XE8 Update Subscription is mandatory for any fixes/updates
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  Posted: Apr 9, 2015 11:06 PM   in response to: Bruce McGee in response to: Bruce McGee
Bruce McGee wrote:
Christopher Burke wrote:

Apparently XE8 Pro does include mobile development:

http://www.embarcadero.com/products/rad-studio/product-editions

Rad Studio Professional has had this since it was released.

Delphi Professional doesn't.

That is correct.

--
Dalija Prasnikar
Quentin Correll


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Re: As of XE8 Update Subscription is mandatory for any fixes/updates
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  Posted: Apr 8, 2015 6:40 PM   in response to: Dalija Prasnikar in response to: Dalija Prasnikar
Dalija,

| I have abandoned my SA subscription some time ago. Last
| version I have is XE4.

I didn't know that. For some reason I thought you had SA.

--

Q -- XanaNews 1.19.1.372 - 2015-04-08 18:40:03
Dalija Prasnikar

Posts: 2,325
Registered: 11/9/99
Re: As of XE8 Update Subscription is mandatory for any fixes/updates
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  Posted: Apr 9, 2015 11:26 PM   in response to: Quentin Correll in response to: Quentin Correll
Quentin Correll wrote:
Dalija,

| I have abandoned my SA subscription some time ago. Last
| version I have is XE4.

I didn't know that. For some reason I thought you had SA.

Maybe because I was thoroughly trying all versions and know
what they bring :)

--
Dalija Prasnikar
Dan Ridenhour

Posts: 46
Registered: 8/21/08
Re: As of XE8 Update Subscription is mandatory for any fixes/updates
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  Posted: Apr 8, 2015 7:37 PM   in response to: Quentin Correll in response to: Quentin Correll
Quentin Correll wrote:
Dalija,

| Just warning for people that might missed it.

Good post!

Like you, I've had SA almost "forever." It's really been the
only-way-to-go for a long time.

I agree the SA has been the only way to go for some time... unfortunately for me hindsight is 20/20. Here my my tail of woe... I made sure two SAs were maintained for well over a decade... one for me and one for my employer (single developer shop). After a good 1/2 decade of miss-steps and false starts which just about every feature I had any interest in I let my personal SA lapse, deciding I would upgrade when they actually released something I could use... mind you upgrades for PRO had been under $500 for the past decade so I thought that would continue.

I got an offer notification that the next release was coming out with Android and iOS support... but after they had just released then canned the Free Pascal based iOS stuff I had my doubts... the upgrade price was just under $500 for rad studio pro with mobile... I almost jumped but honestly I was gun shy after spending $2500 on the SA the past 1/2 decade for nothing I was interested in... so I decided to wait until it was released to see if it was real or another false start. Then they short changed the discount price and cranked it up to over $800 so I decided not to upgrade... a couple months later I got an upgrade offer for 20% off so I thought, hey I'll look again and see if they adjusted their pricing after cashing in on the android crowd... but found the price was now $1079 so even 20% off was still around $800. So I continued working with freely available android tools and when Windows 8 came along jumped ship to Visual Studio... which did everything I wanted and was free. I've always loved delphi but not THAT much.

What was unexpected is how this little shift effected my delphi use in general. See typically I'm always working on my own projects at home that drove my interest in the new things delphi offered that I would then evangelize at work and put into use where I could. When i dropped my SA and moved to other tools at home... that ceased so at work we have also moved to other platforms and I don't push delphi for new projects. Its now just to maintain our D2007 and D7 code bases. So in the end I have access to an SA I don't use... and dropped the one I would have... all because i had had enough of throwing money away when they weren't delivering... and it happened to be timed when they changed their pricing model to something I can never justify getting back into.




--

Q -- XanaNews 1.19.1.372 - 2015-04-08 12:19:35
Quentin Correll


Posts: 2,412
Registered: 12/1/99
Re: As of XE8 Update Subscription is mandatory for any fixes/updates
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  Posted: Apr 9, 2015 12:20 PM   in response to: Dan Ridenhour in response to: Dan Ridenhour
Dan,

Have you "investigated" with EMBT about the possibility of transferring
the still valid, "unused," SA from your employer to you? And, of
course, your employer. I would think they'd be happy to not have the
yearly SA cost continue for an unused product.

--

Q -- XanaNews 1.19.1.372 - 2015-04-09 12:17:33
Dan Ridenhour

Posts: 46
Registered: 8/21/08
Re: As of XE8 Update Subscription is mandatory for any fixes/updates
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  Posted: Apr 20, 2015 6:42 PM   in response to: Quentin Correll in response to: Quentin Correll
Quentin Correll wrote:
Dan,

Have you "investigated" with EMBT about the possibility of transferring
the still valid, "unused," SA from your employer to you? And, of
course, your employer. I would think they'd be happy to not have the
yearly SA cost continue for an unused product.

--

Q -- XanaNews 1.19.1.372 - 2015-04-09 12:17:33

They do 'use' the SA... just for the warm fuzzy of support incidents (which I think I used once about a decade ago) and I think 3-4 years ago we had a HD crash and I had to pull down D7 and D2007 from the 'old versions'. By they I mean me as i'm a one man shop in my little corporate corner. I don't think I ever even downloaded anything past XE5 though and that didn't stay on my system long.

I did learn something about myself I hadn't thought about before though... I'm always coding at home on some niche or experimental project and those projects are what I get excited about, and the tools i'm using at home become the tools I evangelize and push at work... luckily I have had a lot of say over what tools are used over the years... lots of battles back in the day over delphi which I always won... but I haven't used Delphi in a home project since XE3... I've used a lot of other tools, languages, etc. and have brought the ones I liked into my work for new projects... its become a matter of choosing the tool for the project instead of waiting around for my favorite tool to support what I needed... because for about a decade it was all promise and half baked delivery which led to me dropping my SA at just the wrong time. Delphi is still my favorite tool... I just don't use it anymore except maintaining old projects.
Quentin Correll


Posts: 2,412
Registered: 12/1/99
Re: As of XE8 Update Subscription is mandatory for any fixes/updates
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  Posted: Apr 21, 2015 10:23 AM   in response to: Dan Ridenhour in response to: Dan Ridenhour
Dan,

| ... which led to me dropping my SA at just the wrong time. Delphi
is
| still my favorite tool... I just don't use it anymore except
maintaining old projects.

Well then,... I guess you really already know the answer(s) to your
dilemma. <g>

--

Q -- XanaNews 1.19.1.372 - 2015-04-21 10:22:01

Loren Pechtel

Posts: 20
Registered: 3/23/00
Re: As of XE8 Update Subscription is mandatory for any fixes/updates
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  Posted: Apr 9, 2015 8:00 PM   in response to: Dan Ridenhour in response to: Dan Ridenhour
On Wed, 8 Apr 2015 19:37:45 -0700, Dan Ridenhour <> wrote:

What was unexpected is how this little shift effected my delphi use in general. See typically I'm always working on my own projects at home that drove my interest in the new things delphi offered that I would then evangelize at work and put into use where I could. When i dropped my SA and moved to other tools at home... that ceased so at work we have also moved to other platforms and I don't push delphi for new projects. Its now just to maintain our D2007 and D7 code bases. So in the end I have ac
cess to an SA I don't use... and dropped the one I would have... all because i had had enough of throwing money away when they weren't delivering... and it happened to be timed when they changed their pricing model to something I can never justify getting back into.

Yeah--I've got a many-versions-behind Delphi version becuase I'm not
writing anything new in Delphi. They dropped the ball badly enough
that it's going to take a lot to get me to consider writing anything
serious in it despite how much I love the language.

Looking around I note that I haven't gotten around to reinstalling
after the last time I had to reinstall Windows.
Dan Ridenhour

Posts: 46
Registered: 8/21/08
Re: As of XE8 Update Subscription is mandatory for any fixes/updates
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  Posted: Apr 20, 2015 7:00 PM   in response to: Loren Pechtel in response to: Loren Pechtel
Loren Pechtel wrote:
On Wed, 8 Apr 2015 19:37:45 -0700, Dan Ridenhour <> wrote:

What was unexpected is how this little shift effected my delphi use in general. See typically I'm always working on my own projects at home that drove my interest in the new things delphi offered that I would then evangelize at work and put into use where I could. When i dropped my SA and moved to other tools at home... that ceased so at work we have also moved to other platforms and I don't push delphi for new projects. Its now just to maintain our D2007 and D7 code bases. So in the end I have ac
cess to an SA I don't use... and dropped the one I would have... all because i had had enough of throwing money away when they weren't delivering... and it happened to be timed when they changed their pricing model to something I can never justify getting back into.

Yeah--I've got a many-versions-behind Delphi version becuase I'm not
writing anything new in Delphi. They dropped the ball badly enough
that it's going to take a lot to get me to consider writing anything
serious in it despite how much I love the language.

For me it was a case of really bad timing... for literally a decade the upgrade cycle had been yearly... and maintenance on the PRO sku was about $100-200 cheaper than just buying the upgrade when it came out. After the iOS FPC compiler implementation then pull out that was the last straw with me... after living through the .NET and Compact Framework kinda sorta not really maybe support and .NET / Prism support, etc. etc. I had just had enough of 1/2 baked directions and paying yearly to wait another year and hope... Win XE3 came out they said the new mobile tools were coming for a 'nominal fee' to XE3 owners.... so I said, ok time to deliver and dropped the SA... figured updates had been under $500 for the past decade it would cost me a couple hundred more than the SA but I would only buy when they had something working...

Then the mobile tools come out at a nominal fee of $299 for iOS with android (coming)... oh boy, more half baked and not to nominal of a fee so I'll wait for the next update... I get the upgrade offer for XE4 Rad Studio with mobile for $499.. with android support. This could be it I thought... I had had my fill of apple already but delphi android was on my wish list... but after so many false starts I wanted to see if before I upgraded...

Then embarcadero released 2 days early... and jacked up the upgrade price to around $800. I thought.. wow... typically post release the upgrades go up maybe $50... they really want to get $$$ from those android folks... I didn't even bother to download a trail. Then a month or sol later I get an email 20% off on XE4 upgrades so I went to check it out... wow now the upgrade price was $1079... 20% off that is still over $800... No Dice.

So as I said, bad timing... I'm known for it... if im putting up with someone doing something irritating I'll finally say something 30 seconds before they would be done anyway... same here... I put up with Borland/Inprise/Coregear/Embarcadero half baked new feature promises for close to a decade... and drop out just when a) they start getting interesting again and b) decide to change there long standing upgrade pricing and in the process double the price for me to upgrade in a space of 2 months.

I'll never pay more than $500 to upgrade as a matter of principle, and they will never offer upgrades that cheap again... let alone the cost of upgrading and getting back on the SA. So now its kinda become a periodic ritual when I get the release announcement emails. lol.

Sure I have an SA at work so could go download it whenever I want... but I won't start a personal project in a tool I couldn't release the end result... and the kind of niche apps I play with at home most the time would never warrant the cost of upgrading.

I'm guessing the best that could happen is that whenever I'm no longer working for my company I see if i can take the SA with me... Its 99% likely they wouldn't continue with delphi without me on board.



Looking around I note that I haven't gotten around to reinstalling
after the last time I had to reinstall Windows.

Edited by: Dan Ridenhour on Apr 20, 2015 7:00 PM
Farshad Mohajeri

Posts: 120
Registered: 12/28/06
Re: As of XE8 Update Subscription is mandatory for any fixes/updates
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  Posted: Apr 8, 2015 1:03 PM   in response to: Dalija Prasnikar in response to: Dalija Prasnikar
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:
Just warning for people that might missed it.

As of XE8 you will need to have active Update Subscription (maintenance, SA)
contract if you wish to receive any updates and/or hotfixes even for current version.

That makes purchasing Update Subscription almost mandatory.

https://plus.google.com/+AndreaRaimondi/posts/BLRD3Bjnbab

Marco Cantù:
"As for the subscription, you need it for getting updates, like a future Update 1.
New rule, might not like, but that is part of the update subscription model we are
pushing forward. It is "almost" mandatory..."

Does this mean that when you get Delphi XE8 Enterprise license for 2.700 EUR you won't be able to get "XE8 Update 1" or "XE8 Hotfix 2" which will be released 3 days after your purchase?
One word: hilarious!

With these prices one year subscription should be included by default!

Dear Embarcadero,
With such moves you more and more alienate yourself from world of Delphi developers.
Dalija Prasnikar

Posts: 2,325
Registered: 11/9/99
Re: As of XE8 Update Subscription is mandatory for any fixes/updates
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  Posted: Apr 8, 2015 1:14 PM   in response to: Farshad Mohajeri in response to: Farshad Mohajeri
Farshad Mohajeri wrote:
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:
Just warning for people that might missed it.

As of XE8 you will need to have active Update Subscription (maintenance, SA)
contract if you wish to receive any updates and/or hotfixes even for current version.

That makes purchasing Update Subscription almost mandatory.

https://plus.google.com/+AndreaRaimondi/posts/BLRD3Bjnbab

Marco Cantù:
"As for the subscription, you need it for getting updates, like a future Update 1.
New rule, might not like, but that is part of the update subscription model we are
pushing forward. It is "almost" mandatory..."

Does this mean that when you get Delphi XE8 Enterprise license for 2.700 EUR you won't be able to get "XE8 Update 1" or "XE8 Hotfix 2" which will be released 3 days after your purchase?
One word: hilarious!

That is exactly what it means.

With these prices one year subscription should be included by default!

Absolutely.

--
Dalija Prasnikar
Ole Ekerhovd

Posts: 50
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Re: As of XE8 Update Subscription is mandatory for any fixes/updates
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  Posted: Apr 8, 2015 1:34 PM   in response to: Dalija Prasnikar in response to: Dalija Prasnikar
Thanks for this post.

The answer for me is to wait a month or two, the Update 1 will then be included in the purchase?

Ole


As of XE8 you will need to have active Update Subscription (maintenance, SA)
contract if you wish to receive any updates and/or hotfixes even for current version.
Clement Doss

Posts: 133
Registered: 9/19/00
Re: As of XE8 Update Subscription is mandatory for any fixes/updates
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  Posted: Apr 8, 2015 1:43 PM   in response to: Dalija Prasnikar in response to: Dalija Prasnikar
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:
Just warning for people that might missed it.

As of XE8 you will need to have active Update Subscription (maintenance, SA)
contract if you wish to receive any updates and/or hotfixes even for current version.

Marco Cantù:
"As for the subscription, you need it for getting updates, like a future Update 1.
New rule, might not like, but that is part of the update subscription model we are
pushing forward. It is "almost" mandatory..."


Well,

I have no problem with this model.
Since I have an active subscription ( and already installed XE8), and I cant't (or won't) update/install XE9,XE10, XE11, due to some problems, like a show stop bug in my mainstream project. EMB should back port the changes all the way to XE8, right?

New rule, might not like, but is part of the subscription model they are pushing forward!

Clément
Luigi Sandon

Posts: 353
Registered: 10/15/99
Re: As of XE8 Update Subscription is mandatory for any fixes/updates
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  Posted: Apr 8, 2015 2:25 PM   in response to: Dalija Prasnikar in response to: Dalija Prasnikar
Face it: there is only one department at BorInCodeDero working hard: the "how to get more money just changing license terms, without actually investing in the product development". So we had:

1) Upgrades only from the three previous release
1 bis) Release every six moths instead of twelve, to ensure 1) works best
2) You can't use Delphi "abroad"
3) You can't use Delphi Pro for C/S development (it didn't work, but it was attempted)

Did I forget something?

Now this one - the only one I would probably agree with, if it really means true running support for a release for a window large enough you don't need to switch to a new release every six months to get bug fixed while working on larger projects with a far longer release time.

If it means for example that a release gest fixes (real fixes) for, say, at least 18-24 months (not four...), I would see a real advantage - that's how Oracle works (but it doesn't have many friends, though...). Otherwise, it's just milking the thinner and thinner poor cow...
Bruce McGee

Posts: 1,716
Registered: 9/30/99
Re: As of XE8 Update Subscription is mandatory for any fixes/updates
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  Posted: Apr 9, 2015 3:15 PM   in response to: Luigi Sandon in response to: Luigi Sandon
Luigi Sandon wrote:

So I assume you already ordered your upgrade?

--
Regards,
Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
Luigi Sandon

Posts: 74
Registered: 2/22/08
Re: As of XE8 Update Subscription is mandatory for any fixes/updates
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  Posted: Apr 10, 2015 1:23 AM   in response to: Bruce McGee in response to: Bruce McGee
So I assume you already ordered your upgrade?

No, I'll wait to see how this works and well the new subscription model works and how well maintained older versions will be. The times I had a blind faith in BorInCodeDero products are over (since D2005, at least).

However, spending my time mostly in VC++ and GCC these days... still some Windows GUIs and some old apps to maintain in Delphi, but everything else is now in C/C++ and some Python, really no need to hurry up and upgrade... especially from a Windows//VCL perspective there's really nothing new.
Nick Hodges

Posts: 2,414
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: As of XE8 Update Subscription is mandatory for any fixes/updates
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  Posted: Apr 10, 2015 5:36 AM   in response to: Luigi Sandon in response to: Luigi Sandon
Luigi Sandon wrote:

especially from a Windows//VCL perspective there's really nothing new.

Wrong as usual.

http://blog.marcocantu.com/blog/2015-april-new-xe8-vcl-developers.html

--
Nick
Delphi Programming is Fun

Christopher Burke

Posts: 580
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Re: As of XE8 Update Subscription is mandatory for any fixes/updates
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  Posted: Apr 10, 2015 5:43 AM   in response to: Nick Hodges in response to: Nick Hodges
Nick Hodges <nickhodges at gmail dot com> wrote in news:719998
@forums.embarcadero.com:


Thanks for that link, I'd only found a few things.

Sadly for what I write - the biggy for me are IDE and Help improvements
(Developing for Windows XP is a real drag sometimes...)
Luigi Sandon

Posts: 74
Registered: 2/22/08
Re: As of XE8 Update Subscription is mandatory for any fixes/updates
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  Posted: Apr 10, 2015 8:16 AM   in response to: Nick Hodges in response to: Nick Hodges
Wrong as usual.

Sure, you are. Very, very little, and something I already developed myself or using 3rd party libraries for ages. Outdated implementations still there, and a lot of missing pieces for real, modern Windows support.

Try again, Nick... and meawhile, check what there's really new in Windows since Windows 2000.... it looks it's years you don't update your knowledge about it.
Nick Hodges

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Re: As of XE8 Update Subscription is mandatory for any fixes/updates
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  Posted: Apr 10, 2015 8:22 AM   in response to: Luigi Sandon in response to: Luigi Sandon
Luigi Sandon wrote:

Sure, you are.

I can only assume you didn't read the blog post.

But you'd never admit that there is stuff there.

Why are you so negative? Is there nothing good to say? Why come here
and be so utterly, totally, completely, endlessly, tiresomely negative?

--
Nick
Delphi Programming is Fun
Quentin Correll


Posts: 2,412
Registered: 12/1/99
Re: As of XE8 Update Subscription is mandatory for any fixes/updates
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  Posted: Apr 10, 2015 10:01 AM   in response to: Nick Hodges in response to: Nick Hodges
Nick,

| Why come here and be so utterly, totally, completely, endlessly,
tiresomely
| negative?

I long ago decided that it is his natural personality, not just here.
<sigh>

--

Q -- XanaNews 1.19.1.372 - 2015-04-10 10:00:27
Nick Hodges

Posts: 2,414
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: As of XE8 Update Subscription is mandatory for any fixes/updates
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  Posted: Apr 10, 2015 11:03 AM   in response to: Quentin Correll in response to: Quentin Correll
Quentin Correll wrote:

I long ago decided that it is his natural personality, not just here.
<sigh>

You are probably right.

--
Nick
Delphi Programming is Fun
Eric Fleming Bo...

Posts: 48
Registered: 8/11/02
Re: As of XE8 Update Subscription is mandatory for any fixes/updates
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  Posted: Apr 10, 2015 7:39 PM   in response to: Nick Hodges in response to: Nick Hodges
Why are you so negative? Is there nothing good to say? Why come here
and be so utterly, totally, completely, endlessly, tiresomely negative?

That is because he is a very very sad guy... and that is sad... I feel pity for him
Joseph Mitzen

Posts: 392
Registered: 6/9/02
Re: As of XE8 Update Subscription is mandatory for any fixes/updates
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  Posted: Apr 13, 2015 8:44 AM   in response to: Nick Hodges in response to: Nick Hodges
Nick Hodges wrote:

Why come here
and be so utterly, totally, completely, endlessly, tiresomely negative?

I believe it was George Bernard Shaw who wrote "'Pasteboard pies and paper flowers are being banished from the stage by the growth of that power of accurate observation which is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it…"
Nick Hodges

Posts: 2,414
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: As of XE8 Update Subscription is mandatory for any fixes/updates
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  Posted: Apr 13, 2015 10:04 AM   in response to: Joseph Mitzen in response to: Joseph Mitzen
Joseph Mitzen wrote:


I believe it was George Bernard Shaw who wrote "'Pasteboard pies and
paper flowers are being banished from the stage by the growth of that
power of accurate observation which is commonly called cynicism by
those who have not got it…"

Indeed. If only that were the case here.

--
Nick
Delphi Programming is Fun
Eivind Bakkestuen


Posts: 447
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Re: As of XE8 Update Subscription is mandatory for any fixes/updates
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  Posted: Apr 14, 2015 5:59 AM   in response to: Nick Hodges in response to: Nick Hodges

1/2 of that list is from Castalia alone (and thus is an editor
enhancement, not something VCL developers will consider as enhancing
their area of interest).

And listing the "Start here page redesign" as something apparently
positive is just... shaking head. Most VCL devs will surely say
"where the ¤#!%&!#¤!"#¤ did my favourites go???".

--
Eivind Bakkestuen [NDD]
Brandon Staggs

Posts: 683
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Re: As of XE8 Update Subscription is mandatory for any fixes/updates
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  Posted: Apr 14, 2015 6:57 AM   in response to: Eivind Bakkestuen in response to: Eivind Bakkestuen
"Eivind Bakkestuen" wrote on Tue, 14 Apr 2015 05:59:05 -0700:


1/2 of that list is from Castalia alone (and thus is an editor
enhancement, not something VCL developers will consider as enhancing
their area of interest).

And listing the "Start here page redesign" as something apparently
positive is just... shaking head. Most VCL devs will surely say
"where the ¤#!%&!#¤!"#¤ did my favourites go???".

At least they didn't put "menu fonts now larger than your Windows UI
settings say you want them" on the list.

--
Brandon Staggs
StudyLamp Software LLC
http://www.studylamp.com
Nick Hodges

Posts: 2,414
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: As of XE8 Update Subscription is mandatory for any fixes/updates
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  Posted: Apr 14, 2015 11:45 AM   in response to: Eivind Bakkestuen in response to: Eivind Bakkestuen
Eivind Bakkestuen wrote:

1/2 of that list is from Castalia alone (and thus is an editor
enhancement, not something VCL developers will consider as enhancing
their area of interest).

The IDE is not of interest to VCL developers? I don't agree.

"where the ¤#!%&!#¤!"#¤ did my favourites go???".

Yes, well there is that. :-\

--
Nick
Delphi Programming is Fun
Dennis Jones

Posts: 53
Registered: 1/25/98
Re: As of XE8 Update Subscription is mandatory for any fixes/updates
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  Posted: Apr 8, 2015 5:59 PM   in response to: Dalija Prasnikar in response to: Dalija Prasnikar
"Dalija Prasnikar" wrote in message news:719763 at forums dot embarcadero dot com...

Just warning for people that might missed it.

As of XE8 you will need to have active Update Subscription (maintenance,
SA)
contract if you wish to receive any updates and/or hotfixes even for
current version.

Because they know their product releases are terrible (lots of bugs), and
they know customers have gotten smart enough not to pay for upgrades all the
time and get nothing in return (bugs aren't fixed). So they've decided to
hold a gun to our heads. I thought it was bad before...now it has just
gotten worse. The worse their products get, the fewer customers they have,
and the more they have to charge to stay afloat.

What jerks. If I wasn't working for a client on a C++Builder product, I
would definitely NOT be buying any more upgrades to C++Builder. Microsoft
has done a MUCH BETTER job of producing reliable development products, and
they do it without charging their customers out the wazoo for updates. I've
been VERY happy with C# and .NET. When I came back to C++Builder, I was
immediately reminded of how bad things were. Ugh.

Dennis
Markus Humm

Posts: 5,113
Registered: 11/9/03
Re: As of XE8 Update Subscription is mandatory for any fixes/updates
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  Posted: Apr 9, 2015 11:42 AM   in response to: Dalija Prasnikar in response to: Dalija Prasnikar
Am 08.04.2015 um 20:55 schrieb Dalija Prasnikar:
Just warning for people that might missed it.

As of XE8 you will need to have active Update Subscription (maintenance, SA)
contract if you wish to receive any updates and/or hotfixes even for current version.

That makes purchasing Update Subscription almost mandatory.

https://plus.google.com/+AndreaRaimondi/posts/BLRD3Bjnbab

Marco Cantù:
"As for the subscription, you need it for getting updates, like a future Update 1.
New rule, might not like, but that is part of the update subscription model we are
pushing forward. It is "almost" mandatory..."

Hello,

you forgot one thing:
They enhanced the subscription with the promise now to deliver fixes for
the last 3 versions up to 2 years back. But afaik that's only fixes for
important show stopper like issues. But for some that might still be of
help, e.g. when you can't easily switch to a newer version at some pint
in time.

Greetings

Markus
david hoke

Posts: 616
Registered: 2/9/07
Re: As of XE8 Update Subscription is mandatory for any fixes/updates
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  Posted: Apr 9, 2015 12:29 PM   in response to: Markus Humm in response to: Markus Humm
"Markus Humm" <markus dot humm at freenet dot de> wrote in message
news:719875 at forums dot embarcadero dot com...
you forgot one thing:
They enhanced the subscription with the promise now to deliver fixes for
the last 3 versions up to 2 years back. But afaik that's only fixes for
important show stopper like issues.

Curious, do you have a public reference for an explicit statement/definition
as to exactly what is to be provided with certainty, and if so could you
please provide the reference or perhaps the content?

i.e. what exactly is the "promise" that has been made, what will be provided
to those with an update subscription?

Thanks.
Bruce McGee

Posts: 1,716
Registered: 9/30/99
Re: As of XE8 Update Subscription is mandatory for any fixes/updates
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  Posted: Apr 9, 2015 3:13 PM   in response to: david hoke in response to: david hoke
david hoke wrote:

Curious, do you have a public reference for an explicit
statement/definition as to exactly what is to be provided with
certainty, and if so could you please provide the reference or
perhaps the content?

i.e. what exactly is the "promise" that has been made, what will be
provided to those with an update subscription?

https://www.embarcadero.com/products/rad-studio/update-subscription

They don't specify what the criteria will be for fixes to be back
ported to previous versions.

--
Regards,
Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software

Markus Humm

Posts: 5,113
Registered: 11/9/03
Re: As of XE8 Update Subscription is mandatory for any fixes/updates
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  Posted: Apr 13, 2015 2:15 PM   in response to: david hoke in response to: david hoke
Am 09.04.2015 um 21:29 schrieb david hoke:
"Markus Humm" <markus dot humm at freenet dot de> wrote in message
news:719875 at forums dot embarcadero dot com...
you forgot one thing:
They enhanced the subscription with the promise now to deliver fixes for
the last 3 versions up to 2 years back. But afaik that's only fixes for
important show stopper like issues.

Curious, do you have a public reference for an explicit statement/definition
as to exactly what is to be provided with certainty, and if so could you
please provide the reference or perhaps the content?

i.e. what exactly is the "promise" that has been made, what will be provided
to those with an update subscription?

Thanks.

My information is from the launch webinar.

Greetings

Markus
Bruce McGee

Posts: 1,716
Registered: 9/30/99
Re: As of XE8 Update Subscription is mandatory for any fixes/updates
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  Posted: Apr 9, 2015 3:05 PM   in response to: Dalija Prasnikar in response to: Dalija Prasnikar
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:

That makes purchasing Update Subscription almost mandatory.

I strongly recommend a subscription for anyone using a modern version
of Delphi. Even before this development.

--
Regards,
Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
Brandon Staggs

Posts: 683
Registered: 3/3/01
Re: As of XE8 Update Subscription is mandatory for any fixes/updates
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  Posted: Apr 9, 2015 4:24 PM   in response to: Bruce McGee in response to: Bruce McGee
"Bruce McGee" wrote on Thu, 9 Apr 2015 15:05:03 -0700:

Dalija Prasnikar wrote:

That makes purchasing Update Subscription almost mandatory.

I strongly recommend a subscription for anyone using a modern version
of Delphi. Even before this development.

Indeed, it seems a basic thing any professional should have.

--
Brandon Staggs
StudyLamp Software LLC
http://www.studylamp.com
Nick Hodges

Posts: 2,414
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: As of XE8 Update Subscription is mandatory for any fixes/updates
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  Posted: Apr 10, 2015 5:36 AM   in response to: Bruce McGee in response to: Bruce McGee
Bruce McGee wrote:


I strongly recommend a subscription for anyone using a modern version
of Delphi. Even before this development.

Yep, as you said, that's the handwriting on the wall.

--
Nick
Delphi Programming is Fun
Konstantine Pou...

Posts: 128
Registered: 11/3/06
Re: As of XE8 Update Subscription is mandatory for any fixes/updates
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  Posted: Apr 13, 2015 10:11 AM   in response to: Nick Hodges in response to: Nick Hodges
Yep, as you said, that's the handwriting on the wall.

The last version I have is XE4. Newer version did not offer anything
new that I would need. Was sort of hoping for 64bit OSX compiler
target but it did not happen either.

With this BS of hot fixes by subscription only even less appealing. It
is a money grab and there is no way I will submit to that.

Handwriting on the wall works both way. You can keep paying through
the nose and I am bailing out.
Kristof Degros

Posts: 3
Registered: 10/8/09
Re: As of XE8 Update Subscription is mandatory for any fixes/updates
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  Posted: Apr 10, 2015 2:28 AM   in response to: Dalija Prasnikar in response to: Dalija Prasnikar
For me it is pretty simple

Either they go to a subscription model and no cost of a new license, or you get at least the major fixes for a new release

Or

Just move on (almost all new stuff for me is non Delphi) and I keep my XE3 for the stuff that I still have.

I was already pissed that i bought an XE2 with subscription to see mobile stuff dissapear in Pro edition at XE3 and I had to pay again.
You can not include something in a product with a subscription, take it away and then charge extra money for it as an addon.
That was the reason why I cancelled my subscription and started looking at other things

Also where is the Windows 8 Desktop store support & the vcl love.

Thomas Steinmau...

Posts: 12
Registered: 12/9/01
Re: As of XE8 Update Subscription is mandatory for any fixes/updates
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  Posted: Apr 10, 2015 11:22 AM   in response to: Dalija Prasnikar in response to: Dalija Prasnikar
On 08.04.2015 20:55, Dalija Prasnikar wrote:
Just warning for people that might missed it.

As of XE8 you will need to have active Update Subscription (maintenance, SA)
contract if you wish to receive any updates and/or hotfixes even for current version.

That makes purchasing Update Subscription almost mandatory.

https://plus.google.com/+AndreaRaimondi/posts/BLRD3Bjnbab

Marco Cantù:
"As for the subscription, you need it for getting updates, like a future Update 1.
New rule, might not like, but that is part of the update subscription model we are
pushing forward. It is "almost" mandatory..."

Very, very bad move.

Thomas

Dan Barclay

Posts: 889
Registered: 11/9/03
Re: As of XE8 Update Subscription is mandatory for any fixes/updates
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  Posted: Apr 10, 2015 11:32 AM   in response to: Thomas Steinmau... in response to: Thomas Steinmau...
Thomas Steinmaurer wrote:
On 08.04.2015 20:55, Dalija Prasnikar wrote:
Just warning for people that might missed it.

As of XE8 you will need to have active Update Subscription (maintenance, SA)
contract if you wish to receive any updates and/or hotfixes even for current version.

That makes purchasing Update Subscription almost mandatory.

https://plus.google.com/+AndreaRaimondi/posts/BLRD3Bjnbab

Marco Cantù:
"As for the subscription, you need it for getting updates, like a future Update 1.
New rule, might not like, but that is part of the update subscription model we are
pushing forward. It is "almost" mandatory..."

Very, very bad move.

I think that is an understatement.

It is understandable for "improvement" updates, but not understandable at all to hold fixes hostage (fixes to problems that should not have been in the original in the first place!).

There is a lot of short term thinking in place here, maybe the customers they're looking for are thinking short term as well.

Dan
david hoke

Posts: 616
Registered: 2/9/07
Re: As of XE8 Update Subscription is mandatory for any fixes/updates
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  Posted: Apr 10, 2015 11:48 AM   in response to: Dan Barclay in response to: Dan Barclay
<Dan Barclay> wrote in message news:720057 at forums dot embarcadero dot com...
Thomas Steinmaurer wrote:
On 08.04.2015 20:55, Dalija Prasnikar wrote:
Just warning for people that might missed it.

As of XE8 you will need to have active Update Subscription
(maintenance, SA)
contract if you wish to receive any updates and/or hotfixes even for
current version.

That makes purchasing Update Subscription almost mandatory.

https://plus.google.com/+AndreaRaimondi/posts/BLRD3Bjnbab

Marco Cantù:
"As for the subscription, you need it for getting updates, like a
future Update 1.
New rule, might not like, but that is part of the update subscription
model we are
pushing forward. It is "almost" mandatory...?"

Very, very bad move.

I think that is an understatement.

It is understandable for "improvement" updates, but not understandable at
all to hold fixes hostage (fixes to problems that should not have been in
the original in the first place!).

There is a lot of short term thinking in place here, maybe the customers
they're looking for are thinking short term as well.

I haven't really followed prices, but...

isn't it basically a price increase, to obtain equivalent "service" that you
previously received with the basic purchase?

Or, did they correspondingly lower the base product (without update
subscription) price, commensurate to what the update costs?
Dan Barclay

Posts: 889
Registered: 11/9/03
Re: As of XE8 Update Subscription is mandatory for any fixes/updates
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  Posted: Apr 10, 2015 1:14 PM   in response to: david hoke in response to: david hoke
david hoke wrote:
<Dan Barclay> wrote in message news:720057 at forums dot embarcadero dot com...
Thomas Steinmaurer wrote:
Very, very bad move.

I think that is an understatement.

It is understandable for "improvement" updates, but not understandable at
all to hold fixes hostage (fixes to problems that should not have been in
the original in the first place!).

There is a lot of short term thinking in place here, maybe the customers
they're looking for are thinking short term as well.

I haven't really followed prices, but...

isn't it basically a price increase, to obtain equivalent "service" that you
previously received with the basic purchase?

Or, did they correspondingly lower the base product (without update
subscription) price, commensurate to what the update costs?

Let's look at this another way, in the form of questions.

Do you think it's reasonable for a vendor to sell you a product (for a couple of thousand dollars) and then, when you install it and find certain features you paid for don't work, you need to pay them MORE in order to get those features to actually work?

If they were selling anything else (cars? TV's, Computers?) it would not be acceptable. If you bought a new computer and found half the memory didn't work right out of the box, would you expect it to be fixed? Would you expect to pay extra for it?

I thought so.

Dan
david hoke

Posts: 616
Registered: 2/9/07
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  Posted: Apr 14, 2015 9:19 AM   in response to: Dan Barclay in response to: Dan Barclay
Hmm,

<Dan Barclay> wrote in message news:720085 at forums dot embarcadero dot com...
david hoke wrote:

I haven't really followed prices, but...

isn't it basically a price increase, to obtain equivalent "service" that
you
previously received with the basic purchase?

Or, did they correspondingly lower the base product (without update
subscription) price, commensurate to what the update costs?

Let's look at this another way, in the form of questions.

Do you think it's reasonable for a vendor to sell you a product (for a
couple of thousand dollars) and then, when you install it and find
certain features you paid for don't work, you need to pay them MORE in
order to get those features to actually work?

If they were selling anything else (cars? TV's, Computers?) it would not
be acceptable. If you bought a new computer and found half the memory
didn't work right out of the box, would you expect it to be fixed? Would
you expect to pay extra for it?

I thought so.

Given the vehemence I think I detect there, I guess I'll assume that's a
significant price increase, to obtain previous version same level of
service.

And if it is vehemence, directed toward me, please be assured that it is
entirely misdirected.

As for the "would you expect it to be fixed?", well of course. That's why
we didn't get RS2007 until some time after XE was released - we do have our
limits of expectation and finally gave up expecting bds2006 to be fixed.

Regards.
Dan Barclay

Posts: 889
Registered: 11/9/03
Re: As of XE8 Update Subscription is mandatory for any fixes/updates
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  Posted: Apr 14, 2015 10:27 AM   in response to: david hoke in response to: david hoke
david hoke wrote:
Hmm,

<Dan Barclay> wrote in message news:720085 at forums dot embarcadero dot com...
Let's look at this another way, in the form of questions.

Do you think it's reasonable for a vendor to sell you a product (for a
couple of thousand dollars) and then, when you install it and find
certain features you paid for don't work, you need to pay them MORE in
order to get those features to actually work?

If they were selling anything else (cars? TV's, Computers?) it would not
be acceptable. If you bought a new computer and found half the memory
didn't work right out of the box, would you expect it to be fixed? Would
you expect to pay extra for it?

I thought so.

Given the vehemence I think I detect there, I guess I'll assume that's a
significant price increase, to obtain previous version same level of
service.

And if it is vehemence, directed toward me, please be assured that it is
entirely misdirected.

As for the "would you expect it to be fixed?", well of course. That's why
we didn't get RS2007 until some time after XE was released - we do have our
limits of expectation and finally gave up expecting bds2006 to be fixed.
"Vehemence" (or disappointment) is not directed toward you, I am pointing out the difference is how we perceive this. You seem to view it as just a difference in pricing.

It's not a difference in pricing, it's a difference in their view of responsibility to their customer. A customer pays for something that is supposed to work. They already paid the (published) price for that "thing". They now say that, in order for that thing you paid for to actually work you have to pay some more.

Some of us think that is wrong. Most of us would not tolerate it in another product (ref my computer example). Paying for "manufacturers defect" repair is not right.

<shrug> If you still view it as just a price increase then next time you buy a computer (or auto) and it doesn't work... don't expect it to be made to work. That may be OK with you, most people will shop elsewhere.

Dan
Graham Stratford

Posts: 20
Registered: 10/23/99
Re: As of XE8 Update Subscription is mandatory for any fixes/updates
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  Posted: Apr 10, 2015 12:19 PM   in response to: Dan Barclay in response to: Dan Barclay
Dan Barclay wrote:

It is understandable for "improvement" updates, but not understandable at all to hold fixes hostage (fixes to problems that should not have been in the original in the first place!).
There is a lot of short term thinking in place here, maybe the customers they're looking for are thinking short term as well.
Dan

To me, it sounds like Embarcadero is not expecting to get ANY new users.

"Are you looking for a competitive development environment? Spend $1,000 (minimum) for the basic Delphi package. You want n-tier data access? $500 more. Bugfixes? $324/year. Oh, and we're going to hit you for $35 for physical media and $16 for the privilege of being able to download again in the future."

Yes, there's an academic version (only $125 in Canada), but it turns into a pumpkin once the class is over (according to the license, it can only be used for learning). I remember a time when the academic site license was (I think) about $20/seat and the limitation was that it could not be used for commercial software. Now students can't even use it on their own time for free/open source projects.

In what imaginable scenario does someone drop $1500+ to try out a tool (and please, don't talk about the 30-day trial; that is only useful to ascertain that it works at all, not really long enough to make a fair comparison to other tools) unless they already have experience with that tool? By definition that excludes everyone who has not used Delphi before.

I understand why people who use Delphi love it and find the investment worthwhile. But what is there to attract and hold the attention of anyone else, and convince them of its value?

Edited by: Graham Stratford on Apr 10, 2015 12:19 PM
Bruce McGee

Posts: 1,716
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Re: As of XE8 Update Subscription is mandatory for any fixes/updates [Edit]
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  Posted: Apr 10, 2015 6:16 PM   in response to: Graham Stratford in response to: Graham Stratford
Graham Stratford wrote:

To me, it sounds like Embarcadero is not expecting to get ANY new
users.

Embarcadero have reported a fairly steady increase in Delphi revenue
and number of licenses since they acquired it.

I know everyone likes to give Embarcadero advice on how they need to
run their business (myself included), but maybe (just maybe) they have
some idea what they are doing after all.

--
Regards,
Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
Dan Barclay

Posts: 889
Registered: 11/9/03
Re: As of XE8 Update Subscription is mandatory for any fixes/updates [Edit]
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  Posted: Apr 10, 2015 7:37 PM   in response to: Bruce McGee in response to: Bruce McGee
Bruce McGee wrote:
Graham Stratford wrote:

To me, it sounds like Embarcadero is not expecting to get ANY new
users.

Embarcadero have reported a fairly steady increase in Delphi revenue
and number of licenses since they acquired it.
I actually don't doubt that at all. They have made a good showing, at least in presentation, of their ability in the mobile market.

If your only interest is mobile you would be hard pressed to write "new legacy" code (or apps) and have them still usable in two years. Apple, in particular, would require an update in developer tool just to stay in the market. You are going to upgrade regularly, or not be in that market.

Going after mobile apps isn't a bad strategy. We bought XE2 to play with that. It was a sad tale in that regard but it sounded like a good idea at the time.

The thing is, they aren't the only player in that market and by a number of accounts aren't the leader if you're strictly looking at mobile. One strength we saw was the potential of using our solid libraries in the mobile world. That only works if we also keep our server and client based apps going.

I think I see their strategy for tapping into the mobile market, I just don't see it working for the long term if they don't recognize and continue to cater to the server/client market. I hear noises that they want to keep that market, but they appear to be taking a lot of it for granted. In particular, if you have apps but explicitly do not plan to move into the mobile market it seems you are pretty low on their radar. Getting new users in the pipeline on that part of the market... I just don't see it happening.

So, assuming atrophy of pure mobile users (because other tool vendors are focused exclusively on mobile), and assuming atrophy of pure Windoze users because they are being scared off, it adds up to a center cut of the market.

It seems to me that means they will, not to long from now, be counting on the users who need the combination of mobile + Windoze apps.

For now, short term thinking, I wouldn't be surprised to hear their sales are up. IMHO senior management should be paid in stock, not allowed to sell for 5 years. Owners, for the long term and not rewarded on quarterly performance. (Note: That "quarterly" disease affects most American business, dunno about the rest of the world).

Yes, I may be missing something. <shrug>

Dan
Bruce McGee

Posts: 1,716
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Re: As of XE8 Update Subscription is mandatory for any fixes/updates [Edit] [Edit]
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  Posted: Apr 10, 2015 10:03 PM   in response to: Dan Barclay in response to: Dan Barclay
Dan Barclay wrote:

I think I see their strategy for tapping into the mobile market, I
just don't see it working for the long term if they don't recognize
and continue to cater to the server/client market.

I also think it will have to be a mix with more emphasis on server side.

It seems to me that means they will, not to long from now, be
counting on the users who need the combination of mobile + Windoze
apps.

I fall into that group.

I don't know how well Appmethod is being received by the mobile only
market.

For now, short term thinking, I wouldn't be surprised to hear their
sales are up.

Sales aren't just up in the short term. They have been up (a lot) since
2008.

IMHO senior management should be paid in stock, not
allowed to sell for 5 years. Owners, for the long term and not
rewarded on quarterly performance. (Note: That "quarterly" disease
affects most American business, dunno about the rest of the world).

No argument from me.

--
Regards,
Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software

Dan Barclay

Posts: 889
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Re: As of XE8 Update Subscription is mandatory for any fixes/updates [Edit] [Edit]
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  Posted: Apr 13, 2015 10:22 AM   in response to: Bruce McGee in response to: Bruce McGee
Bruce McGee wrote:
Dan Barclay wrote:

I think I see their strategy for tapping into the mobile market, I
just don't see it working for the long term if they don't recognize
and continue to cater to the server/client market.

I also think it will have to be a mix with more emphasis on server side.

I agree. Web services is a big deal, as well as business servers. Intraweb is a surprisingly cool delivery process as well. But, to keep the server side they also need to continue to be pretty deep into classic "client apps".

It seems to me that means they will, not to long from now, be
counting on the users who need the combination of mobile + Windoze
apps.

I fall into that group.

I tried it, was very disappointed. May try again one day and it's "nice to have that option". It's just not what I put my money on the table for. That's a key point I'm not sure EMB "gets". To wit:

I don't know how well Appmethod is being received by the mobile only
market.

Yup, if you were just placing money on the table for mobile it would not likely be Delphi. You or I and a few others maybe, but not enough to be the market they're needing.

For now, short term thinking, I wouldn't be surprised to hear their
sales are up.

Sales aren't just up in the short term. They have been up (a lot) since
2008.

Tell me that again in 5 or 10 years. Given the heavy development commitment these customers don't turn on a dime. People with heavy server (and client) apps are starting to look around though. Dunno where they think they're going to get new developers from, long term, without it. I don't think they're going to keep folks who only come for mobile apps.

Maybe they'll "see the light" and make another turn. It just doesn't look good from this seat at the moment. I've seen this view before, unless they take another look it's likely not to turn out well for them and time is starting to run short.

Of course I'm just a dumb country boy so what do I know...

Dan
Bruce McGee

Posts: 1,716
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Re: As of XE8 Update Subscription is mandatory for any fixes/updates [Edit] [Edit] [Edit]
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  Posted: Apr 15, 2015 12:15 PM   in response to: Dan Barclay in response to: Dan Barclay
Dan Barclay wrote:

Bruce McGee wrote:
Sales aren't just up in the short term. They have been up (a lot)
since 2008.

Tell me that again in 5 or 10 years.

It's been seven or eight years now. I think we can safely call it an
upward trend.

But if they have another press release announcing increased revenue,
there will definitely be a post from me about it. :)

--
Regards,
Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
david hoke

Posts: 616
Registered: 2/9/07
Re: As of XE8 Update Subscription is mandatory for any fixes/updates [Edit] [Edit] [Edit]
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  Posted: Apr 15, 2015 12:59 PM   in response to: Bruce McGee in response to: Bruce McGee
"Bruce McGee" <bmcgee at glooscap dot com> wrote in message
news:720571 at forums dot embarcadero dot com...

It's been seven or eight years now. I think we can safely call it an
upward trend.

So, you found out what the change was in 2012 vs 2011?

(I asked you about that before -
http://www.codenewsfast.com/cnf/article/487395053/permalink.art-ng1914q155981.)

And therefore have some idea of where they stand at this point, in terms of
increase[d] level now, vs 2008 or so where increases apparently started
(being reported [in 2011])?

In order to be certain there's a continual upward trend...

Please do share what that change was from 2011 to 2012...
Bruce McGee

Posts: 1,716
Registered: 9/30/99
Re: As of XE8 Update Subscription is mandatory for any fixes/updates [Edit] [Edit] [Edit]
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  Posted: Apr 15, 2015 2:22 PM   in response to: david hoke in response to: david hoke
david hoke wrote:

"Bruce McGee" <bmcgee at glooscap dot com> wrote in message
news:720571 at forums dot embarcadero dot com...

It's been seven or eight years now. I think we can safely call it an
upward trend.

So, you found out what the change was in 2012 vs 2011?

(I asked you about that before -
http://www.codenewsfast.com/cnf/article/487395053/permalink.art-ng1914q155981.)

And therefore have some idea of where they stand at this point, in
terms of increase[d] level now, vs 2008 or so where increases
apparently started (being reported [in 2011])?

In order to be certain there's a continual upward trend...

Please do share what that change was from 2011 to 2012...

Increases were reported since Embarcadero acquired Delphi.

It's true that we don't have complete information for all years (don't
remember which one), but that doesn't invalidate the years we do have
data for.

And anecdotally, revenues continue to increase.

--
Regards,
Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
david hoke

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Re: As of XE8 Update Subscription is mandatory for any fixes/updates [Edit] [Edit] [Edit]
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  Posted: Apr 16, 2015 7:40 AM   in response to: Bruce McGee in response to: Bruce McGee
"Bruce McGee" <bmcgee at glooscap dot com> wrote in message
news:720592 at forums dot embarcadero dot com...
Increases were reported since Embarcadero acquired Delphi.

It's true that we don't have complete information for all years (don't
remember which one), but that doesn't invalidate the years we do have
data for.

And anecdotally, revenues continue to increase.

At prices (from those of what I believe were for XE7),
that for us at least, would appear to be about
a 49% increase to move forward with somewhat
similar service to that we've previously had...

...if a similar number of customers upgrade as
(presumed) have been in recent history, to a similar
level of service as they previously obtained, at
price increases a brief check suggest fluctuate somewhere
in range of 45%-55% over probable prior prices...

...perhaps that anecdote will easily continue.
Bruce McGee

Posts: 1,716
Registered: 9/30/99
Re: As of XE8 Update Subscription is mandatory for any fixes/updates [Edit] [Edit] [Edit]
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  Posted: Apr 16, 2015 1:40 PM   in response to: david hoke in response to: david hoke
david hoke wrote:

"Bruce McGee" <bmcgee at glooscap dot com> wrote in message
news:720592 at forums dot embarcadero dot com...
Increases were reported since Embarcadero acquired Delphi.

It's true that we don't have complete information for all years
(don't remember which one), but that doesn't invalidate the years
we do have data for.

And anecdotally, revenues continue to increase.

At prices (from those of what I believe were for XE7),
that for us at least, would appear to be about
a 49% increase to move forward with somewhat
similar service to that we've previously had...

...if a similar number of customers upgrade as
(presumed) have been in recent history, to a similar
level of service as they previously obtained, at
price increases a brief check suggest fluctuate somewhere
in range of 45%-55% over probable prior prices...

...perhaps that anecdote will easily continue.

What are you talking about?

--
Regards,
Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
David Erbas-White

Posts: 202
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Re: As of XE8 Update Subscription is mandatory for any fixes/updates [Edit] [Edit] [Edit]
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  Posted: Apr 16, 2015 1:56 PM   in response to: Bruce McGee in response to: Bruce McGee
On 4/16/2015 1:40 PM, Bruce McGee wrote:

What are you talking about?

Simply put, I think the point was (increasing price * decreasing
customer base) could still show revenue growth, but wouldn't be a
positive long-term trend.

Further, that lacking visibility, the assumption that the customer base
might be decreasing is not unwarranted.

Bear in mind that IF there are any large numbers of new customers, they
may not have the 'devotion' to the product that the longer-term
customers have had -- IOW, there may be folks willing to 'try out' the
FireMonkey products, but who don't stick with the brand long-term due to
product issues -- whereas, there are still a HUGE number of users who've
been with the product since the days of single-digit product numbers
(Delphi 1, Delphi 5, etc.).

David Erbas-White
Bruce McGee

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Re: As of XE8 Update Subscription is mandatory for any fixes/updates [Edit] [Edit] [Edit]
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  Posted: Apr 16, 2015 2:13 PM   in response to: David Erbas-White in response to: David Erbas-White
David Erbas-White wrote:

On 4/16/2015 1:40 PM, Bruce McGee wrote:

What are you talking about?

Simply put, I think the point was (increasing price * decreasing
customer base) could still show revenue growth, but wouldn't be a
positive long-term trend.

Given that the price hasn't gone up as much as the revenues, that seems
unlikely.

You might remember the commentary around the earlier press releases
where Embarcadero confirmed that the numbers they reported were
increases in revenue, but that this consisted of, among other things,
an increase in the number of licenses sold.

Further, that lacking visibility, the assumption that the customer
base might be decreasing is not unwarranted.

See previous point.

Bear in mind that IF there are any large numbers of new customers,
they may not have the 'devotion' to the product that the longer-term
customers have had

Like you?

-- IOW, there may be folks willing to 'try out'
the FireMonkey products, but who don't stick with the brand long-term
due to product issues -- whereas, there are still a HUGE number of
users who've been with the product since the days of single-digit
product numbers (Delphi 1, Delphi 5, etc.).

That's fair.

--
Regards,
Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
David Erbas-White

Posts: 202
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Re: As of XE8 Update Subscription is mandatory for any fixes/updates [Edit] [Edit] [Edit]
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  Posted: Apr 16, 2015 2:22 PM   in response to: Bruce McGee in response to: Bruce McGee
On 4/16/2015 2:13 PM, Bruce McGee wrote:
David Erbas-White wrote:

Bear in mind that IF there are any large numbers of new customers,
they may not have the 'devotion' to the product that the longer-term
customers have had

Like you?


I've seen more and more comments from people that are 'like me' -- if by
'like me' you mean someone who has been using the product since Turbo
Pascal days, and has either paid for upgrades (back in the day) or
maintained SA (since it's been out) to keep my support current. I
daresay that makes me a long-term customer.

However, my use of RAD Studio has been effectively to support legacy
applications -- given the problems over the past decade, the likelihood
of my using it for new development is VERY low.

Based on recent commentary, I'm not alone -- and EMBT is not doing
anything to reverse that trend (in the sense of doing things that those
long-term users are finding beneficial, in KEEPING us as long-term
customers).

David Erbas-White
Bruce McGee

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Re: As of XE8 Update Subscription is mandatory for any fixes/updates [Edit] [Edit] [Edit]
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  Posted: Apr 16, 2015 2:33 PM   in response to: David Erbas-White in response to: David Erbas-White
David Erbas-White wrote:

Based on recent commentary, I'm not alone

Fairly small, but really loud, minority.

Complaining is fine, but I have a lot more sympathy for people who are
complaining about real problems they are having with the product and
are legitimately looking for a fix.

Some people just get in the habit of complaining or taking cheap shots,
no matter what. They don't help much, but they keep coming up in search
engines, giving a false negative impression.

I suspect you will disagree.

--
Regards,
Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
Bruce McGee

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Re: As of XE8 Update Subscription is mandatory for any fixes/updates [Edit] [Edit] [Edit]
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  Posted: Apr 16, 2015 3:04 PM   in response to: Bruce McGee in response to: Bruce McGee
Bruce McGee wrote:

Complaining is fine, but I have a lot more sympathy for people who are
complaining about real problems they are having with the product and
are legitimately looking for a fix.

It's worth noting that MVPs complain. A lot!

But when Ray Konopka or Cary Jensen (they're fresh in my mind) say that
something is broken, people listen.

Good looks and charm only get you so far. They also usually back these
up with provable examples or test cases and pretty much never use them
as an excuse to take cheap shots.

I would be willing to spend time helping someone, even a frustrated
someone, who is legitimately looking for help. It helps make up for all
the times someone has done the same for me.

--
Regards,
Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
Markus Humm

Posts: 5,113
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Re: As of XE8 Update Subscription is mandatory for any fixes/updates [Edit] [Edit] [Edit]
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  Posted: Apr 17, 2015 8:56 AM   in response to: David Erbas-White in response to: David Erbas-White
Am 16.04.2015 um 22:56 schrieb David Erbas-White:
On 4/16/2015 1:40 PM, Bruce McGee wrote:

What are you talking about?

Simply put, I think the point was (increasing price * decreasing
customer base) could still show revenue growth, but wouldn't be a
positive long-term trend.

Further, that lacking visibility, the assumption that the customer base
might be decreasing is not unwarranted.

Bear in mind that IF there are any large numbers of new customers, they
may not have the 'devotion' to the product that the longer-term
customers have had -- IOW, there may be folks willing to 'try out' the
FireMonkey products, but who don't stick with the brand long-term due to
product issues -- whereas, there are still a HUGE number of users who've
been with the product since the days of single-digit product numbers
(Delphi 1, Delphi 5, etc.).

Btw. Delphi's now number 11 on Tiobe. It was number 19 a year ago. But
ok, it's still a wide gap to VB.net.

Greetings

Markus
Bruce McGee

Posts: 1,716
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Re: As of XE8 Update Subscription is mandatory for any fixes/updates [Edit] [Edit] [Edit]
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  Posted: Apr 17, 2015 9:27 AM   in response to: Markus Humm in response to: Markus Humm
Markus Humm wrote:
Btw. Delphi's now number 11 on Tiobe. It was number 19 a year ago. But
ok, it's still a wide gap to VB.net.

Combine Delphi and Pascal it's number 8.

--
Regards
Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: As of XE8 Update Subscription is mandatory for any fixes/updates [Edit] [Edit] [Edit]
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  Posted: Apr 23, 2015 2:31 PM   in response to: Markus Humm in response to: Markus Humm
Markus Humm wrote:

Btw. Delphi's now number 11 on Tiobe.

Note that no one really knows what that index actually measures. Some
may think that it measures popularity, but no one ever proved that.

So while Delphi may rise, no one knows what that actually means.
Perhaps just that people talk about Delphi more.

The revenue data posted by Embarcadero, however, seem much more telling.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"It is a government of the people by the people for the people
no longer; it is a government of corporations by corporations
for corporations."
-- Rutherford B. Hayes
Bruce McGee

Posts: 1,716
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Re: As of XE8 Update Subscription is mandatory for any fixes/updates [Edit] [Edit] [Edit]
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  Posted: Apr 23, 2015 4:33 PM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:

Markus Humm wrote:

Btw. Delphi's now number 11 on Tiobe.

Note that no one really knows what that index actually measures. Some
may think that it measures popularity, but no one ever proved that.

It measures the outrage of people who insist that Delphi is about to
die.

The revenue data posted by Embarcadero, however, seem much more
telling.

Which also seems to generate a certain amount of outrage.

Go figure...

--
Regards,
Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
Markus Humm

Posts: 5,113
Registered: 11/9/03
Re: As of XE8 Update Subscription is mandatory for any fixes/updates [Edit] [Edit]
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  Posted: Apr 13, 2015 2:21 PM   in response to: Dan Barclay in response to: Dan Barclay
Am 11.04.2015 um 04:43 schrieb Dan Barclay:

(Note: That "quarterly" disease affects most American business, dunno about the rest of the world).

Rest assured: others are affected as well by that silliness.
For instance Porsche the sports car maker was dropped from some stock
market index a few years ago because they refused to publish quarterly
reports.

Greetings

Markus
Steve Winsett

Posts: 3
Registered: 11/19/99
Re: As of XE8 Update Subscription is mandatory for any fixes/updates
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  Posted: Apr 10, 2015 6:05 PM   in response to: Dalija Prasnikar in response to: Dalija Prasnikar
When buying READ things in detail f.ex if your buying Studio XE8 UPGRADE the price says 1,945.80 this actually means 2,918.80 if you want any fixes to the bugs in it - of course unless you just want to buy a useless brick. We explored it first day and Yes there are some show stopping bugs
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: As of XE8 Update Subscription is mandatory for any fixes/updates
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  Posted: May 7, 2015 10:01 AM   in response to: Steve Winsett in response to: Steve Winsett
Steve Winsett wrote:

When buying READ things in detail f.ex if your buying Studio XE8
UPGRADE the price says 1,945.80 this actually means 2,918.80 if you
want any fixes to the bugs in it - of course unless you just want to
buy a useless brick. We explored it first day and Yes there are some
show stopping bugs

Show stoppers make the product completely unusable. I haven't seen any
reported yet.
--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"A people that values its privileges above its principles soon
loses both."
-- Dwight D. Eisenhower (1890-1969), Inaugural Address,
January 20, 1953
Jan Martin Pett...

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Re: As of XE8 Update Subscription is mandatory for any fixes/updates
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  Posted: Apr 13, 2015 8:39 AM   in response to: Dalija Prasnikar in response to: Dalija Prasnikar
So I guess this means they've massively increased the obligatory cost for the product with XE8? (I'm on XE6)

I assume the prices with strikethrough is the new prices, and the other are the current price.

In other words, the obligatory cost for upgrading Rad Studio Pro is 2024 EUR (1350+674) when the new prices takes effect.
..just to get more or less the same I've gotten without an SA? (ignoring mobile, as I don't care for that part)
I know that I might get another major release during that time, but it is almost guaranteed to be yet
another mobile-only release.

After XE, except for x64 support, the releases has focused almost exclusively on mobile so most of the
new "features" have been kind of useless. I've been more of a hobbyist in the later years, but now it is getting
rather expensive..for more or less the exact same product (ignoring mobile, as I don't care for that part).
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: As of XE8 Update Subscription is mandatory for any fixes/updates
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  Posted: May 7, 2015 10:03 AM   in response to: Jan Martin Pett... in response to: Jan Martin Pett...
Jan Martin Pettersen wrote:

So I guess this means they've massively increased the obligatory cost
for the product with XE8? (I'm on XE6)

No, because you get SA, which means upcoming versions will be much
cheaper for you, especially if you remain on SA.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one
fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all
the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss
yours."
-- Stephen Roberts
Larry Johnson

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Re: As of XE8 Update Subscription is mandatory for any fixes/updates
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  Posted: Apr 14, 2015 11:33 AM   in response to: Dalija Prasnikar in response to: Dalija Prasnikar
As of XE8 you will need to have active Update Subscription (maintenance, SA)
contract if you wish to receive any updates and/or hotfixes even for current version.

Isn't the AppMethod supposed to be Delphi by subscription only. The AppMethod is $25 (per platform per month) for individual developers.

Larry J.
Dalija Prasnikar

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Re: As of XE8 Update Subscription is mandatory for any fixes/updates
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  Posted: Apr 14, 2015 11:43 AM   in response to: Larry Johnson in response to: Larry Johnson
Larry Johnson wrote:
As of XE8 you will need to have active Update Subscription (maintenance, SA)
contract if you wish to receive any updates and/or hotfixes even for current version.

Isn't the AppMethod supposed to be Delphi by subscription only. The AppMethod is $25 (per platform per month) for individual developers.

It is subscription only, but it also has expiring license. When your
subscription expires, you cannot use it anymore.

--
Dalija Prasnikar
Edmund Wong

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Re: As of XE8 Update Subscription is mandatory for any fixes/updates
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  Posted: Apr 16, 2015 5:54 PM   in response to: Dalija Prasnikar in response to: Dalija Prasnikar
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:
Just warning for people that might missed it.

As of XE8 you will need to have active Update Subscription (maintenance, SA)
contract if you wish to receive any updates and/or hotfixes even for current version.

That makes purchasing Update Subscription almost mandatory.

https://plus.google.com/+AndreaRaimondi/posts/BLRD3Bjnbab

Marco Cantù:
"As for the subscription, you need it for getting updates, like a future Update 1.
New rule, might not like, but that is part of the update subscription model we are
pushing forward. It is "almost" mandatory..."

I don't understand this.

If you need to have a subscription in order to get updates, how is it
'almost' mandatory to purchase update subscription? Why can't Marco
just say it's mandatory? That's just very silly. I cannot see a
situation in which I don't purchase a subscription(update/or whatever)
and still get future updates.

Anyway, it's all a moot point for me since XE7 will be the last version
I have with Embarcadero. Purchasing a SA for RAD Studio Ent is no
longer feasible for me. (It costs about 1/2 of a full upgrade. So
if I waited, two years, I'd have just bought the full upgrade and
with budgetary constraints, I don't foresee myself sticking with
Embarcadero.)

I'm guessing it's time to learn a new tool.

Edmund
Brandon Staggs

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Re: As of XE8 Update Subscription is mandatory for any fixes/updates
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  Posted: Apr 17, 2015 5:21 AM   in response to: Edmund Wong in response to: Edmund Wong
"Edmund Wong" wrote on Thu, 16 Apr 2015 17:54:49 -0700:

Why can't Marco
just say it's mandatory?

Because nobody will force you to do it.

They ought to just work one year of updates into the price and be done
with this.

--
Brandon Staggs
StudyLamp Software LLC
http://www.studylamp.com
Van Swofford

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Re: As of XE8 Update Subscription is mandatory for any fixes/updates
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  Posted: Apr 17, 2015 10:08 AM   in response to: Brandon Staggs in response to: Brandon Staggs
Brandon Staggs wrote:

"Edmund Wong" wrote on Thu, 16 Apr 2015 17:54:49 -0700:

Why can't Marco
just say it's mandatory?

Because nobody will force you to do it.

They ought to just work one year of updates into the price and be done
with this.

Either that or just have it priced as a subscription. Originally I had
my software priced as a purchase with one year of updates, followed by
an update subscription for subsequent years, and my customers made it
clear that since it was really a subscription product, why not have a
single price and that's what it is every year. So I did, and they like
that better.

I'd prefer that with Delphi as well. They'd probably argue that since
it has a perpetual license that you should pay more the first year, and
maybe that's true. But at the very least, they should have a single
price for the first year that includes the license plus initial
software and updates for the year.

--
Cheers,
Van

"Good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad
judgment." - Will Rogers
Alan Marryat

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Re: As of XE8 Update Subscription is mandatory for any fixes/updates
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  Posted: Apr 28, 2015 10:14 AM   in response to: Dalija Prasnikar in response to: Dalija Prasnikar
Who here would buy a new car, knowing that if the engine is defective and constantly stalls soon after you buy it, that you must pay for the repair if you didn't buy an extended warrantee?

Dalija Prasnikar wrote:
Just warning for people that might missed it.

As of XE8 you will need to have active Update Subscription (maintenance, SA)
contract if you wish to receive any updates and/or hotfixes even for current version.

That makes purchasing Update Subscription almost mandatory.

https://plus.google.com/+AndreaRaimondi/posts/BLRD3Bjnbab

Marco Cantù:
"As for the subscription, you need it for getting updates, like a future Update 1.
New rule, might not like, but that is part of the update subscription model we are
pushing forward. It is "almost" mandatory..."

--
Dalija Prasnikar
Brandon Staggs

Posts: 683
Registered: 3/3/01
Re: As of XE8 Update Subscription is mandatory for any fixes/updates
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  Posted: Apr 28, 2015 12:57 PM   in response to: Alan Marryat in response to: Alan Marryat
"Alan Marryat" wrote on Tue, 28 Apr 2015 10:14:27 -0700:

Who here would buy a new car, knowing that if the engine is defective and constantly stalls soon after you buy it, that you must pay for the repair if you didn't buy an extended warrantee?

Awesome. It's been a while since I've seen a good'old car=software
comparison!

--
Brandon Staggs
StudyLamp Software LLC
http://www.studylamp.com
Nick Hodges

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Re: As of XE8 Update Subscription is mandatory for any fixes/updates
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  Posted: Apr 28, 2015 1:06 PM   in response to: Brandon Staggs in response to: Brandon Staggs
Brandon Staggs wrote:

Awesome. It's been a while since I've seen a good'old car=software
comparison!

https://twitter.com/nickhodges/status/32080187210342400

--
Nick
Delphi Programming is Fun
christian.kaufm...
Re: As of XE8 Update Subscription is mandatory for any fixes/updates
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  Posted: Apr 28, 2015 10:32 PM   in response to: Nick Hodges in response to: Nick Hodges
Nick Hodges <nickhodges at gmail dot com> schrieb:

Brandon Staggs wrote:

Awesome. It's been a while since I've seen a good'old car=software
comparison!

https://twitter.com/nickhodges/status/32080187210342400

You are both right, but it's still a fact, that there are a lot of issues with every new version of
Delphi. I'm on XE7 and just run into one more:

TGpsStatus fails completely. Should I update to XE8? Is the error gone there? And what about new,
even more basic ones? https://plus.google.com/103246155735524926641/posts/Yne5Nv6mp6B

The most enoying problem with XE7 is "out of memory" after you switched between project groups more
than 2-3 times. And this is not solved in XE8 either:
https://twitter.com/AndyHTech/status/586668580130832384

I tried to find out about subscription: What is the fee per year right now, what do I get, what do I
have to pay additionally. Simple questions, but no clear explanations found on the website until
now.

cu Christian
Markus Humm

Posts: 5,113
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Re: As of XE8 Update Subscription is mandatory for any fixes/updates
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  Posted: Apr 29, 2015 12:37 PM   in response to: christian.kaufm... in response to: christian.kaufm...
Am 29.04.2015 um 07:32 schrieb Christian Kaufmann:
Nick Hodges <nickhodges at gmail dot com> schrieb:

Brandon Staggs wrote:

Awesome. It's been a while since I've seen a good'old car=software
comparison!

https://twitter.com/nickhodges/status/32080187210342400

You are both right, but it's still a fact, that there are a lot of issues with every new version of
Delphi. I'm on XE7 and just run into one more:

TGpsStatus fails completely. Should I update to XE8? Is the error gone there? And what about new,
even more basic ones? https://plus.google.com/103246155735524926641/posts/Yne5Nv6mp6B

The most enoying problem with XE7 is "out of memory" after you switched between project groups more
than 2-3 times. And this is not solved in XE8 either:
https://twitter.com/AndyHTech/status/586668580130832384

I tried to find out about subscription: What is the fee per year right now, what do I get, what do I
have to pay additionally. Simple questions, but no clear explanations found on the website until
now.

You get all versions released during your subscription validity, you get
all fixes released in that period and you get 3 support incidents you
can use (on that basis they sometimes give you a hotfix for the issue
you use your incident on, but I haven't used one yet. Last time I wanted
my bug report had been closed after all those years just the day before
with the comment that it's not fixable as it's a fault of the underlying
Windows control so the VCL cannot do anything about it).

With the new model you also get fixes for some older versions and afaik
they promised additional goodies. (I guess most likely stuff like
further styles)

Greetings

Markus

Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: As of XE8 Update Subscription is mandatory for any fixes/updates
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  Posted: May 7, 2015 10:05 AM   in response to: Nick Hodges in response to: Nick Hodges
Nick Hodges wrote:

Brandon Staggs wrote:

Awesome. It's been a while since I've seen a good'old car=software
comparison!

https://twitter.com/nickhodges/status/32080187210342400

Hodges Law is in conflict with the not so well known Velthuis Law.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not
simpler."
-- Albert Einstein
Nick Hodges

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  Posted: May 7, 2015 10:26 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:

Hodges Law is in conflict with the not so well known Velthuis Law.

Which is......? :-)

--
Nick
Delphi Programming is Fun
Rudy Velthuis (...


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  Posted: May 7, 2015 11:11 PM   in response to: Nick Hodges in response to: Nick Hodges
Nick Hodges wrote:

Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:

Hodges Law is in conflict with the not so well known Velthuis Law.

Which is......? :-)

Any analogy can be valid, as long as you don't take it too far.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"A modest little person, with much to be modest about."
-- Winston Churchill
Nick Hodges

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Re: As of XE8 Update Subscription is mandatory for any fixes/updates
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  Posted: May 10, 2015 2:32 PM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:

Any analogy can be valid, as long as you don't take it too far.

My point exactly.

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Nick
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Bruce McGee

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  Posted: May 10, 2015 2:35 PM   in response to: Nick Hodges in response to: Nick Hodges
Nick Hodges wrote:

Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:

Any analogy can be valid, as long as you don't take it too far.

My point exactly.

I doubt anyone would disagree on this point.

"too far" is open to interpretation, though.

--
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Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
Nick Hodges

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  Posted: May 10, 2015 2:48 PM   in response to: Bruce McGee in response to: Bruce McGee
Bruce McGee wrote:

I doubt anyone would disagree on this point.

"too far" is open to interpretation, though.

I'll stand by my maxim. ;-)

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Nick
Delphi Programming is Fun
Bruce McGee

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  Posted: May 10, 2015 4:21 PM   in response to: Nick Hodges in response to: Nick Hodges
Nick Hodges wrote:

Bruce McGee wrote:

I doubt anyone would disagree on this point.

"too far" is open to interpretation, though.

I'll stand by my maxim. ;-)

Oh, we're on the same page on the car analogy thing.

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Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: As of XE8 Update Subscription is mandatory for any fixes/updates
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  Posted: May 11, 2015 1:53 PM   in response to: Nick Hodges in response to: Nick Hodges
Nick Hodges wrote:

Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:

Any analogy can be valid, as long as you don't take it too far.

My point exactly.

Even analogies between IT and car sales can be valid.

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Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"A language is a dialect with an army and a navy."
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Nick Hodges

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Re: As of XE8 Update Subscription is mandatory for any fixes/updates
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  Posted: May 11, 2015 2:04 PM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:


Even analogies between IT and car sales can be valid.

Who said anything about car sales? Or IT for that matter? Not I.

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Nick
Delphi Programming is Fun
Alan Marryat

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  Posted: Apr 29, 2015 10:26 AM   in response to: Brandon Staggs in response to: Brandon Staggs
Just one of many ways to make obvious something that's apparently not to the fanboys.

Why would anyone buy something that has no warranty (at all now).

Brandon Staggs wrote:
"Alan Marryat" wrote on Tue, 28 Apr 2015 10:14:27 -0700:

Who here would buy a new car, knowing that if the engine is defective and constantly stalls soon after you buy it, that you must pay for the repair if you didn't buy an extended warrantee?

Awesome. It's been a while since I've seen a good'old car=software
comparison!

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Brandon Staggs
StudyLamp Software LLC
http://www.studylamp.com
david hoke

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Re: As of XE8 Update Subscription is mandatory for any fixes/updates
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  Posted: Apr 29, 2015 10:51 AM   in response to: Alan Marryat in response to: Alan Marryat
<Alan Marryat> wrote in message news:722375 at forums dot embarcadero dot com...
Just one of many ways to make obvious something that's apparently not to
the fanboys.

Why would anyone buy something that has no warranty (at all now).

I'm guessing the vendors hope is exactly that, that they won't...

Their gamble is whether or not they will instead continue to buy (albeit
with warranty), and thereby larger financial involvement than previously.

I guess time will tell whether or not they've dealt themselves a winning
hand... (Q?)

If their existing subscription rate is already sufficient to confortably
sustain them, then probably not too much of a gamble.
Alan Marryat

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Re: As of XE8 Update Subscription is mandatory for any fixes/updates
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  Posted: Apr 29, 2015 10:59 AM   in response to: david hoke in response to: david hoke
Except when someone sues. They bought a defective product. Usually when something is bought "as is", it's from an individual selling something used on craigslist.

david hoke wrote:

If their existing subscription rate is already sufficient to confortably
sustain them, then probably not too much of a gamble.
Brandon Staggs

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  Posted: Apr 29, 2015 12:51 PM   in response to: Alan Marryat in response to: Alan Marryat
"Alan Marryat" wrote on Wed, 29 Apr 2015 10:26:09 -0700:

Just one of many ways to make obvious something that's apparently not to the fanboys.

Why would anyone buy something that has no warranty (at all now).

The vast majority of software I license comes with no warranty. Lots
of people buy cars "as-is." Buying things without a warranty is quite
common, actually.

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Brandon Staggs
StudyLamp Software LLC
http://www.studylamp.com
Alan Marryat

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  Posted: Apr 29, 2015 12:58 PM   in response to: Brandon Staggs in response to: Brandon Staggs
Not new ones.

Brandon Staggs wrote:
"Alan Marryat" wrote on Wed, 29 Apr 2015 10:26:09 -0700:

Lots
of people buy cars "as-is."

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Brandon Staggs

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  Posted: Apr 29, 2015 1:01 PM   in response to: Alan Marryat in response to: Alan Marryat
"Alan Marryat" wrote on Wed, 29 Apr 2015 12:58:03 -0700:

Not new ones.

Your original statement: "Why would anyone buy something that has no
warranty (at all now)."

You may move goalposts, but the reality is that lots of things,
ESPECIALLY software licenses, do not come with warranty. Almost every
software license I click through expressly disclaims any warranty.
There's nothing unusual about it.

--
Brandon Staggs
StudyLamp Software LLC
http://www.studylamp.com
Alan Marryat

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  Posted: Apr 29, 2015 1:42 PM   in response to: Brandon Staggs in response to: Brandon Staggs
As the context was related to XE8, unless Embarcadero is in the habit of selling used software, the implication was that I was writing about something new.

You may like this change; I don't. I've been using their stuff since you were in diapers.

Brandon Staggs wrote:
"Alan Marryat" wrote on Wed, 29 Apr 2015 12:58:03 -0700:

Not new ones.

Your original statement: "Why would anyone buy something that has no
warranty (at all now)."

You may move goalposts, but the reality is that lots of things,
ESPECIALLY software licenses, do not come with warranty. Almost every
software license I click through expressly disclaims any warranty.
There's nothing unusual about it.

--
Brandon Staggs
StudyLamp Software LLC
http://www.studylamp.com
Brandon Staggs

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Re: As of XE8 Update Subscription is mandatory for any fixes/updates
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  Posted: Apr 29, 2015 1:59 PM   in response to: Alan Marryat in response to: Alan Marryat
"Alan Marryat" wrote on Wed, 29 Apr 2015 13:42:38 -0700:

You may like this change; I don't.

Actually I don't like the new policy because they have created a way
to buy Delphi and virtually guarantee dissatisfaction. As I have said
before, they should require subscription, not make it optional. By
making it optional they are guaranteeing there will be people unhappy
with their purchase.

I've been using their stuff
since you were in diapers.

That seems impossible given when Borland originally started publishing
software, but if that is true even in hyperbole, why is this a
problem? If you are continually using it why aren't you on SA anyway?
That makes this issue moot for you. It's moot for me -- I have been
on SA for many years now so this change doesn't affect me at all.

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Brandon Staggs
StudyLamp Software LLC
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Alan Marryat

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  Posted: Apr 29, 2015 2:07 PM   in response to: Brandon Staggs in response to: Brandon Staggs
Because I don't upgrade at every release.

Eg. we went from XE2 to XE7.

Aside from the expense associated with the Embarcadero software, you also must consider third party tools as well as the effort involved to integrate them and your existing projects into the new release.

Brandon Staggs wrote:
If you are continually using it why aren't you on SA anyway?

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Brandon Staggs

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Re: As of XE8 Update Subscription is mandatory for any fixes/updates
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  Posted: Apr 29, 2015 2:18 PM   in response to: Alan Marryat in response to: Alan Marryat
"Alan Marryat" wrote on Wed, 29 Apr 2015 14:07:01 -0700:

Because I don't upgrade at every release.

Eg. we went from XE2 to XE7.

New Delphi licenses come with access to previous versions, so you will
still be able to do that. IE, if you decide you want XE8, you can
wait for XE9 and then upgrade, getting whatever the final state of XE8
was.

Anyway in my case the $450 or so a year I am paying for RAD Studio Pro
updates is not an outrageous sum to pay for my primary development
tool as a professional. I understand the proposition is different for
other users, though I do not understand, myself, how a professional
can balk at paying such a price for their main toolset...

But obviously there comes a point where the money is not worth the
product.

I guess what you are left with is the ability to communicate your
dissatisfaction with Embarcadero's sales staff. (They don't care what
any of us say in these dilapidated newsgroups, that is for sure.)

Aside from the expense associated with the Embarcadero software, you also must consider third party tools as well as the effort involved to integrate them and your existing projects into the new release.

Of course. I imagine all Delphi professionals are aware of this and
deal with it.

--
Brandon Staggs
StudyLamp Software LLC
http://www.studylamp.com
David Erbas-White

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Re: As of XE8 Update Subscription is mandatory for any fixes/updates
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  Posted: Apr 29, 2015 2:26 PM   in response to: Brandon Staggs in response to: Brandon Staggs
On 4/29/2015 2:18 PM, Brandon Staggs wrote:

Anyway in my case the $450 or so a year I am paying for RAD Studio Pro
updates is not an outrageous sum to pay for my primary development
tool as a professional. I understand the proposition is different for
other users, though I do not understand, myself, how a professional
can balk at paying such a price for their main toolset...

The presumption is that RAD Studio remains the main toolset for EMBT
customers. Speaking for myself, while RAD Studio USED to be my main
toolset, it is now merely one of several tools that I use. That lowers
its overall value, and how much I might be willing to pay to support the
product.

David Erbas-White
Alan Marryat

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Re: As of XE8 Update Subscription is mandatory for any fixes/updates
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  Posted: Apr 29, 2015 2:27 PM   in response to: Brandon Staggs in response to: Brandon Staggs
That headache alone makes upgrading a trepidatious move. Now add in the fact that unless you've paid for a subscription in addition to the cost of the software (which from what you mentioned is almost the cost of the software itself), you're going to be stuck if there are bugs unless you decide to pay another $450 on top of the $500 you paid to upgrade. I agree with you that this could cause initial releases to be buggier than before. Knowing that, who on earth would buy the product? Especially those who don't upgrade at every release.

Imagine if MS did that with Windows.

Brandon Staggs wrote:

Aside from the expense associated with the Embarcadero software, you also must consider third party tools as well as the effort involved to integrate them and your existing projects into the new release.

Of course. I imagine all Delphi professionals are aware of this and
deal with it.

--
Brandon Staggs
StudyLamp Software LLC
http://www.studylamp.com
Brandon Staggs

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Re: As of XE8 Update Subscription is mandatory for any fixes/updates
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  Posted: Apr 29, 2015 2:31 PM   in response to: Alan Marryat in response to: Alan Marryat
"Alan Marryat" wrote on Wed, 29 Apr 2015 14:27:23 -0700:

That headache alone makes upgrading a trepidatious move. Now add in the fact that unless you've paid for a subscription in addition to the cost of the software (which from what you mentioned is almost the cost of the software itself), you're going to be stuck if there are bugs unless you decide to pay another $450 on top of the $500 you paid to upgrade. I agree with you that this could cause initial releases to be buggier than before. Knowing that, who on earth would buy the product? Especially those
who don't upgrade at every release.

I don't know how to convince ANYONE that Delphi is a good place to
start these days. If you're not already using it, it is very
difficult to make a good case to start. I don't disagree with that
one bit. I love using Delphi but I would not envy the task of
convincing a client or an employer to use it on a new project,
regardless of the price.

--
Brandon Staggs
StudyLamp Software LLC
http://www.studylamp.com
Alan Marryat

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Re: As of XE8 Update Subscription is mandatory for any fixes/updates
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  Posted: Apr 29, 2015 2:37 PM   in response to: Brandon Staggs in response to: Brandon Staggs
As I indicated in my wisecrack before, I've been using this line of software since Turbo Pascal. Over the years I've looked at MS tools and haven't been impressed.

However Visual Studio Express 2013 is free. I recently installed it and it doesn't look bad. I'd hate to switch to that though, but this move may cause some to jump ship. I can guarantee we won't be upgrading to XE8. Maybe XE9 or XE10 won't have this new policy and we will re-evaluate then.

Brandon Staggs wrote:

I don't know how to convince ANYONE that Delphi is a good place to
start these days. If you're not already using it, it is very
difficult to make a good case to start. I don't disagree with that
one bit. I love using Delphi but I would not envy the task of
convincing a client or an employer to use it on a new project,
regardless of the price.

--
Brandon Staggs
StudyLamp Software LLC
http://www.studylamp.com
Markus Humm

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Re: As of XE8 Update Subscription is mandatory for any fixes/updates
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  Posted: Apr 30, 2015 10:50 AM   in response to: Brandon Staggs in response to: Brandon Staggs
Am 29.04.2015 um 22:01 schrieb Brandon Staggs:
"Alan Marryat" wrote on Wed, 29 Apr 2015 12:58:03 -0700:

Not new ones.

Your original statement: "Why would anyone buy something that has no
warranty (at all now)."

You may move goalposts, but the reality is that lots of things,
ESPECIALLY software licenses, do not come with warranty. Almost every
software license I click through expressly disclaims any warranty.
There's nothing unusual about it.

Hello,

that disclaimer normally contains some limitation of itsself because
it's not allowed in every jurisdiction.

Greetings

Markus
Alan Marryat

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Re: As of XE8 Update Subscription is mandatory for any fixes/updates
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  Posted: Apr 29, 2015 1:48 PM   in response to: Brandon Staggs in response to: Brandon Staggs
When a customer reports a bug, do you tell them they have to upgrade?

Brandon Staggs wrote:

The vast majority of software I license comes with no warranty.
--
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StudyLamp Software LLC
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Brandon Staggs

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Re: As of XE8 Update Subscription is mandatory for any fixes/updates
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  Posted: Apr 29, 2015 2:11 PM   in response to: Alan Marryat in response to: Alan Marryat
"Alan Marryat" wrote on Wed, 29 Apr 2015 13:48:22 -0700:

When a customer reports a bug, do you tell them they have to upgrade?

I think what you are asking is if I have the same policy Embarcadero
has, and the answer is no. It would be a very bad move for me to
make.

If a customer contacts me because they can't run the version they
bought 15 years ago for Windows 98 on their shiny new Windows 8
machine, I tell them they must upgrade.

I would never charge for hotfixes. Inevitably when I release an
update, bugs not exposed during beta are reported. Serious ones get
hotfixes which I give to customers at no charge. My "free program
update" policy is pretty generous -- right now someone who purchased
three releases ago can still download a free program update for my
main product software to the current bits.

I don't object to Embarcadero's update policy because it's an entirely
different beast. I am paying an annual subscription, so I get
hotfixes and major release upgrades all the same.

--
Brandon Staggs
StudyLamp Software LLC
http://www.studylamp.com
Alan Marryat

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Re: As of XE8 Update Subscription is mandatory for any fixes/updates
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  Posted: Apr 29, 2015 2:16 PM   in response to: Brandon Staggs in response to: Brandon Staggs
Why don't you require your customers pay a subscription in order to pay for bug fixes?

We actually try to support customers who are still running our DOS software. Of course those involve visits and therefore money, but for customers reporting bugs on current software, we always fix them at no cost to them.

Brandon Staggs wrote:
It would be a very bad move for me to
make.


--
Brandon Staggs
StudyLamp Software LLC
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Tony Bryer

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Re: As of XE8 Update Subscription is mandatory for any fixes/updates
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  Posted: Apr 29, 2015 4:47 PM   in response to: Alan Marryat in response to: Alan Marryat
In article <722468 at forums dot embarcadero dot com>, Alan Marryat wrote:
When a customer reports a bug, do you tell them they have to upgrade?

Like many we have a subscription update scheme - buy new and get 12
months and then renew or not as you choose (what you have keeps
working). Fortunately being a one-person business I can use my
discretion on a case-by-case basis:

If a customer with expired update cover reports an issue that has since
been fixed (or will be fixed following their report), my general policy
is to tell them that the current release fixes this and if they take
out a fresh subscription (£40 about $60 for a single product).

If it's a more serious bug (what QC calls basic functionality failure
IIRC) I'll generally bump their expiry date if I think it fair to do
so, but almost certainly not if we're talking about update cover
expired a year or more ago.

Last year a new release introduced a material error into one of our
apps. Once discovered and fixed, the new release access date was
backdated so all all affected users could get this even if their update
cover had expired since and we emailed them all telling them this.

I think the above is fair: it is a balance being fair to all customers
and not being too keen to give some a free ride at the expense of those
who religiously maintain their update cover year on year (20+
consecutive years in some cases!)

--
Tony Bryer, Greentram Software Pty Ltd, Melbourne, Australia
'Software to build on' http://www.greentram.com
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: As of XE8 Update Subscription is mandatory for any fixes/updates
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  Posted: May 7, 2015 10:04 AM   in response to: Alan Marryat in response to: Alan Marryat
Alan Marryat wrote:

Who here would buy a new car, knowing that if the engine is defective
and constantly stalls soon after you buy it, that you must pay for
the repair if you didn't buy an extended warrantee?

No one would. So they make sure that doesn't happen.
--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"The world is too dangerous to live in, not because of the
people who do evil, but because of the people who sit and let
it happen."
-- Albert Einstein
Brian Hamilton ...

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Re: As of XE8 Update Subscription is mandatory for any fixes/updates
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  Posted: May 7, 2015 12:10 PM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
the latest hotfix for iOS simulator has been for all users (i.e even with no Subscrition) and even for XE7
kudos to EMB for doing that
Dalija Prasnikar

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Re: As of XE8 Update Subscription is mandatory for any fixes/updates
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  Posted: May 8, 2015 1:41 AM   in response to: Brian Hamilton ... in response to: Brian Hamilton ...
Brian Hamilton Hamilton wrote:
the latest hotfix for iOS simulator has been for all users (i.e even with no Subscrition) and even for XE7
kudos to EMB for doing that

I guess they would be tarred and feathered otherwise, and they were smart enough
to realize that.

--
Dalija Prasnikar
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: As of XE8 Update Subscription is mandatory for any fixes/updates
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  Posted: May 11, 2015 3:49 AM   in response to: Dalija Prasnikar in response to: Dalija Prasnikar
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:

Brian Hamilton Hamilton wrote:
the latest hotfix for iOS simulator has been for all users (i.e
even with no Subscrition) and even for XE7 kudos to EMB for doing
that

I guess they would be tarred and feathered otherwise, and they were
smart enough to realize that.

I guess they are simply showing responsibility.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Nothing brings people together more, than mutual hatred."
-- Henry Rollins
Dalija Prasnikar

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Re: As of XE8 Update Subscription is mandatory for any fixes/updates
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  Posted: May 11, 2015 11:22 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:

Brian Hamilton Hamilton wrote:
the latest hotfix for iOS simulator has been for all users (i.e
even with no Subscrition) and even for XE7 kudos to EMB for doing
that

I guess they would be tarred and feathered otherwise, and they were
smart enough to realize that.

I guess they are simply showing responsibility.

Showing responsibility would be providing all bug fixes they have for certain
release for all customers, regardless of their subscription status.

Now they don't do that. Or at least they have said they will not do that. And
people that don't have subscription can only guess whether they will get some
important fix or not.

--
Dalija Prasnikar
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: As of XE8 Update Subscription is mandatory for any fixes/updates
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  Posted: May 11, 2015 1:54 PM   in response to: Dalija Prasnikar in response to: Dalija Prasnikar
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:

I guess they are simply showing responsibility.

Showing responsibility would be providing all bug fixes they have for
certain release for all customers

That would be asking too much. I maintain they simply showed
responsibility.
--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"It is practically impossible to teach good programming style to
students that have had prior exposure to Basic; as potential
programmers they are mentally mutilated beyond hope of
regeneration." -- Edsger Dijkstra
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