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Thread: Wow, what happened here????



Permlink Replies: 147 - Last Post: Dec 22, 2014 2:58 PM Last Post By: Kyle Miller
Dalija Prasnikar

Posts: 2,325
Registered: 11/9/99
Wow, what happened here????
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  Posted: Nov 20, 2014 11:59 AM
Seriously, guys you gotta be kidding me, I leave you alone for a while
and all of a sudden you are all well behaved and not trashing this place.
Non-tech looks almost dead...

Now you are going to blame it all on me. Don't think so ;-)

Hey, Rudy, have you lost your Internet connection or what?

--
Dalija Prasnikar
Angus MacRuder

Posts: 12
Registered: 10/30/14
Re: Wow, what happened here????
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  Posted: Nov 20, 2014 1:37 PM   in response to: Dalija Prasnikar in response to: Dalija Prasnikar
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:

Hey, Rudy, have you lost your Internet connection or what?

Lost his wisdom tooth.
Rudy Velthuis (...


Posts: 7,731
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: Wow, what happened here????
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  Posted: Dec 2, 2014 10:06 AM   in response to: Angus MacRuder in response to: Angus MacRuder
Angus MacRuder wrote:

Dalija Prasnikar wrote:

Hey, Rudy, have you lost your Internet connection or what?

Lost his wisdom tooth.

A long time ago already. Well, actually, I lost three, at different
times. I still have one left.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

Whitehead's Law: The obvious answer is always overlooked.
Dalija Prasnikar

Posts: 2,325
Registered: 11/9/99
Re: Wow, what happened here????
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  Posted: Dec 3, 2014 1:40 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:
Angus MacRuder wrote:

Dalija Prasnikar wrote:

Hey, Rudy, have you lost your Internet connection or what?

Lost his wisdom tooth.

A long time ago already. Well, actually, I lost three, at different
times. I still have one left.

Well, I only have one, but only because other three never bothered to show up
and I am just waiting for them to give me trouble I don't need.

--
Dalija Prasnikar
Phillip Woon

Posts: 189
Registered: 9/30/99
Re: Wow, what happened here????
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  Posted: Nov 21, 2014 12:09 PM   in response to: Dalija Prasnikar in response to: Dalija Prasnikar
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:
Seriously, guys you gotta be kidding me, I leave you alone for a while
and all of a sudden you are all well behaved and not trashing this place.
Non-tech looks almost dead...

Now you are going to blame it all on me. Don't think so ;-)

Hey, Rudy, have you lost your Internet connection or what?

--
Dalija Prasnikar

It's been down off and on.
Phillip Woon

Posts: 189
Registered: 9/30/99
Re: Wow, what happened here????
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  Posted: Nov 21, 2014 12:10 PM   in response to: Dalija Prasnikar in response to: Dalija Prasnikar
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:
Seriously, guys you gotta be kidding me, I leave you alone for a while
and all of a sudden you are all well behaved and not trashing this place.
Non-tech looks almost dead...

Now you are going to blame it all on me. Don't think so ;-)

Hey, Rudy, have you lost your Internet connection or what?

--
Dalija Prasnikar

It's been down off and on.
Dalija Prasnikar

Posts: 2,325
Registered: 11/9/99
Re: Wow, what happened here????
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  Posted: Nov 22, 2014 12:38 AM   in response to: Phillip Woon in response to: Phillip Woon
Phillip Woon wrote:
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:
Seriously, guys you gotta be kidding me, I leave you alone for a while
and all of a sudden you are all well behaved and not trashing this place.
Non-tech looks almost dead...

Now you are going to blame it all on me. Don't think so ;-)

Hey, Rudy, have you lost your Internet connection or what?

--
Dalija Prasnikar

It's been down off and on.

I see...

--
Dalija Prasnikar
Adem Meda

Posts: 495
Registered: 12/28/98
Re: Wow, what happened here????
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  Posted: Nov 21, 2014 5:07 PM   in response to: Dalija Prasnikar in response to: Dalija Prasnikar
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:

Seriously, guys you gotta be kidding me, I leave you alone for a while
and all of a sudden you are all well behaved and not trashing this place.
Non-tech looks almost dead...

Well, they seem to have moved to 3rdparty NG generating spam under Del123
thread.

What I AM surprised was the fact that Team-B didn't feel the need to move that
thread to somewhere else.
Slobodan Dmitro...

Posts: 75
Registered: 8/20/11
Re: Wow, what happened here????
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  Posted: Nov 22, 2014 12:22 AM   in response to: Adem Meda in response to: Adem Meda
Hello Adem, I am a Del123 owner. Which thread would that be?
Thanks
Adem Meda

Posts: 495
Registered: 12/28/98
Re: Wow, what happened here???? [Edit]
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  Posted: Nov 22, 2014 1:37 AM   in response to: Slobodan Dmitro... in response to: Slobodan Dmitro...
Slobodan Dmitrovic wrote:

Hello Adem, I am a Del123 owner. Which thread would that be?

I am referring to the one where you [*] invited at least 200 people to
post/reply with what's basically a "yes, please" messages (although most of
them empty) which are, by all intents and purposes, spam as they contained
nothing else.

You've no doubt noticed that I am not including the prev posts that simply
requested similar replies/posts for a free license.

If you're the owner (or person responsible for those messages), I can tell that
you don't read the replies yourself either because, if you had, you'd have seen
and read my post under that thread complaining about the practice.

[*: I am not sure if you're the person or it was someone else from Del123
because I have deleted that thread.]
Slobodan Dmitro...

Posts: 75
Registered: 8/20/11
Re: Wow, what happened here????
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  Posted: Nov 22, 2014 3:04 AM   in response to: Adem Meda in response to: Adem Meda
We gave away around 1200 free copies of our otherwise commercial product in 3 days. I removed that post once it neared 200 replies and I read all the replies. The majority of the replies was coming from China from real people interested in Delphi programming. I am very glad to see Delphi is becoming very popular in Asia.
Adem Meda

Posts: 495
Registered: 12/28/98
Re: Wow, what happened here???? [Edit]
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  Posted: Nov 22, 2014 3:42 AM   in response to: Slobodan Dmitro... in response to: Slobodan Dmitro...
Slobodan Dmitrovic wrote:

We gave away around 1200 free copies of our otherwise commercial product in 3
days.

Is this all you have to say for causing such a 200+ spam?

IMO, none of that excuses the practice: You could have simply posted one single
URL where people could click and got to enlist.
Slobodan Dmitro...

Posts: 75
Registered: 8/20/11
Re: Wow, what happened here???? [Edit]
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  Posted: Nov 22, 2014 3:49 AM   in response to: Adem Meda in response to: Adem Meda
Interesting choice of words there Adem. I don't consider genuine users and potential customers to be a "200+ spam".
Eduardo Elias

Posts: 319
Registered: 9/20/12
Re: Wow, what happened here???? [Edit]
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  Posted: Nov 22, 2014 4:25 AM   in response to: Slobodan Dmitro... in response to: Slobodan Dmitro...
I dont understand... this forum was almost dead... suffering of few posts
for many months... almost cannot stand in its feet...

And something new happens, come someone to comply... always have such people...

Slobodan, I believe you gave a help to the community and this forum server
is here to help the community. So my understanding this is the place for
such thing.

Eduardo

Interesting choice of words there Adem. I don't consider genuine users
and potential customers to be a "200+ spam".
Slobodan Dmitro...

Posts: 75
Registered: 8/20/11
Re: Wow, what happened here???? [Edit]
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  Posted: Nov 22, 2014 4:30 AM   in response to: Eduardo Elias in response to: Eduardo Elias
Thank you very much Eduardo. That was my intention.
Adem Meda

Posts: 495
Registered: 12/28/98
Re: Wow, what happened here???? [Edit]
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  Posted: Nov 22, 2014 5:48 AM   in response to: Slobodan Dmitro... in response to: Slobodan Dmitro...
Slobodan Dmitrovic wrote:

Interesting choice of words there Adem. I don't consider genuine users and
potential customers to be a "200+ spam".

OK, what you did might be a good deed, obviously that's what you think it was;
but the end result is problematic etiquette-wise.

Somewhat like throwing a loud party in a block of apartments.. you (together
with anyone in that party) might be having good time, but the neighbors..

IOW, even when you're paying for the drinks and the great music, there needs to
be a limit to the volume of noise generated in the process.

What I am surprised more is that you still defend what you did by referring to
"genuine users and potential customers" as an excuse for your disregard to the
amount of noise you generated while having your fun.
Slobodan Dmitro...

Posts: 75
Registered: 8/20/11
Re: Wow, what happened here???? [Edit]
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  Posted: Nov 22, 2014 6:55 AM   in response to: Adem Meda in response to: Adem Meda
Interesting comparison. Let's agree to disagree.
Dalija Prasnikar

Posts: 2,325
Registered: 11/9/99
Re: Wow, what happened here????
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  Posted: Nov 22, 2014 12:43 AM   in response to: Adem Meda in response to: Adem Meda
Adem Meda wrote:
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:

Seriously, guys you gotta be kidding me, I leave you alone for a while
and all of a sudden you are all well behaved and not trashing this place.
Non-tech looks almost dead...

Well, they seem to have moved to 3rdparty NG generating spam under Del123
thread.

What I AM surprised was the fact that Team-B didn't feel the need to move that
thread to somewhere else.

I am unable to find it, at least not any thread that has plenty of posts.

--
Dalija Prasnikar
David Pratt

Posts: 9
Registered: 5/21/98
Re: Wow, what happened here????
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  Posted: Nov 22, 2014 12:05 AM   in response to: Dalija Prasnikar in response to: Dalija Prasnikar
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:
Seriously, guys you gotta be kidding me, I leave you alone for a while
and all of a sudden you are all well behaved and not trashing this place.
Non-tech looks almost dead...

Now you are going to blame it all on me. Don't think so ;-)

Hey, Rudy, have you lost your Internet connection or what?

--
Dalija Prasnikar

My guess is that a lot of people have probably given up and have moved on to
"greener pastures." I know I only pop my head in here about once a week now (If that often)
to see if there is anything new. And Embarcadero is building a new community site, too.
http://community.embarcadero.com/
Dalija Prasnikar

Posts: 2,325
Registered: 11/9/99
Re: Wow, what happened here????
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  Posted: Nov 22, 2014 12:42 AM   in response to: David Pratt in response to: David Pratt
David Pratt wrote:
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:
Seriously, guys you gotta be kidding me, I leave you alone for a while
and all of a sudden you are all well behaved and not trashing this place.
Non-tech looks almost dead...

Now you are going to blame it all on me. Don't think so ;-)

Hey, Rudy, have you lost your Internet connection or what?

--
Dalija Prasnikar

My guess is that a lot of people have probably given up and have moved on to
"greener pastures." I know I only pop my head in here about once a week now (If that often)
to see if there is anything new. And Embarcadero is building a new community site, too.
http://community.embarcadero.com/

G+ community is doing rather well https://plus.google.com/u/0/communities/103113685381486591754
but EMBT new community site is mostly dead (as in nothing much is going on there).

--
Dalija Prasnikar
Adem Meda

Posts: 495
Registered: 12/28/98
Re: Wow, what happened here????
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  Posted: Nov 22, 2014 1:40 AM   in response to: Dalija Prasnikar in response to: Dalija Prasnikar
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:

G+ community is doing rather well
https://plus.google.com/u/0/communities/103113685381486591754 but EMBT new
community site is mostly dead (as in nothing much is going on there).

Frankly, I hate to have to scroll endlessly while having to view images and
other fluff. Plus, the threading is, as expected of HTML, awful.
Steve Thackery

Posts: 151
Registered: 4/29/06
Re: Wow, what happened here????
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  Posted: Nov 22, 2014 1:59 AM   in response to: Adem Meda in response to: Adem Meda
Adem Meda wrote:

Frankly, I hate to have to scroll endlessly while having to view
images and other fluff. Plus, the threading is, as expected of HTML,
awful.

Yes, I detest web-based forums. Nothing beats NNTP with a good client
for this purpose.

--
SteveT
Angus MacRuder

Posts: 12
Registered: 10/30/14
Re: Wow, what happened here????
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  Posted: Nov 22, 2014 7:26 AM   in response to: Steve Thackery in response to: Steve Thackery
I like dinosaurs as well.
Rudy Velthuis (...


Posts: 7,731
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: Wow, what happened here????
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  Posted: Dec 4, 2014 3:25 AM   in response to: Angus MacRuder in response to: Angus MacRuder
Angus MacRuder wrote:

I like dinosaurs as well.

Yu may think of NNTP clients as dinosaurs, but NNTP clients are much
more versatile, faster, have a better overview, have much better and
faster navigation, are much more customizable, can often do thing no
web size can do (like mark certain posts as important, automatically
mark posts that relate to my posts differently, automatically mark
posts containing certain topics, has the navigation that goes with
this, etc.etc.)

So if anything, web-based is the modern T-Rex, with only minimal front
paws, unable to hold anything useful, a huge tail and a very small
brain.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Money is better than poverty, if only for financial reasons."
-- Woody Allen, From 'Without Feathers' 1976.
Quentin Correll


Posts: 2,412
Registered: 12/1/99
Re: Wow, what happened here????
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  Posted: Dec 4, 2014 12:52 PM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy,

| So if anything, web-based is the modern T-Rex, with only minimal front
| paws, unable to hold anything useful, a huge tail and a very small
| brain.

VERY WELL put!!! <g>

--

Q

1.19.1.372 (Q's Broken Toolbar.)
Adem Meda

Posts: 495
Registered: 12/28/98
Re: Wow, what happened here????
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  Posted: Dec 4, 2014 1:46 PM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:

Angus MacRuder wrote:

I like dinosaurs as well.

You may think of NNTP clients as dinosaurs, but NNTP clients are much
more versatile, faster, have a better overview, have much better and
faster navigation, are much more customizable, can often do thing no
web size can do (like mark certain posts as important, automatically
mark posts that relate to my posts differently, automatically mark
posts containing certain topics, has the navigation that goes with
this, etc.etc.)

Trouble with NNTP is that it does not, by default, have the capability to
bombard the user with multimedia ads.

And, IMO, that alone is why the younger generation is being kept away from NNTP.
Quentin Correll


Posts: 2,412
Registered: 12/1/99
Re: Wow, what happened here????
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  Posted: Dec 4, 2014 7:13 PM   in response to: Adem Meda in response to: Adem Meda
Adem,

| Trouble with NNTP is that it does not, by default, have the
| capability to bombard the user with multimedia ads.

Not a "trouble!" A MAJOR benefit!!!!!!!

--

Q

1.19.1.372 (Q's Broken Toolbar.)

Rudy Velthuis (...


Posts: 7,731
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: Wow, what happened here????
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  Posted: Dec 4, 2014 11:12 PM   in response to: Adem Meda in response to: Adem Meda
Adem Meda wrote:

Trouble with NNTP is that it does not, by default, have the
capability to bombard the user with multimedia ads.

Yeah, I really miss that. <g>

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"The cynics are right nine times out of ten."
-- Henry Louis Mencken (1880-1956)
Loren Pechtel

Posts: 20
Registered: 3/23/00
Re: Wow, what happened here????
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  Posted: Dec 6, 2014 7:49 PM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
On Thu, 4 Dec 2014 03:25:48 -0800, Rudy Velthuis (TeamB)
<newsgroups at rvelthuis dot de> wrote:

Angus MacRuder wrote:

I like dinosaurs as well.

Yu may think of NNTP clients as dinosaurs, but NNTP clients are much
more versatile, faster, have a better overview, have much better and
faster navigation, are much more customizable, can often do thing no
web size can do (like mark certain posts as important, automatically
mark posts that relate to my posts differently, automatically mark
posts containing certain topics, has the navigation that goes with
this, etc.etc.)

So if anything, web-based is the modern T-Rex, with only minimal front
paws, unable to hold anything useful, a huge tail and a very small
brain.

Agreed. Web clients are a showhorse. NNTP is a workhorse.
Dalija Prasnikar

Posts: 2,325
Registered: 11/9/99
Re: Wow, what happened here????
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  Posted: Nov 22, 2014 4:49 AM   in response to: Adem Meda in response to: Adem Meda
Adem Meda wrote:
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:

G+ community is doing rather well
https://plus.google.com/u/0/communities/103113685381486591754 but EMBT new
community site is mostly dead (as in nothing much is going on there).

Frankly, I hate to have to scroll endlessly while having to view images and
other fluff. Plus, the threading is, as expected of HTML, awful.

Agreed.

--
Dalija Prasnikar
Rudy Velthuis (...


Posts: 7,731
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: Wow, what happened here????
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  Posted: Dec 4, 2014 3:20 AM   in response to: Adem Meda in response to: Adem Meda
Adem Meda wrote:

Frankly, I hate to have to scroll endlessly while having to view
images and other fluff. Plus, the threading is, as expected of HTML,
awful.

Fully agreed! I don't understand why people prefer web-based over NNTP.
Web-based is slower (AKA click-and-wait), has a static layout, has
terrible navigation, has too much fluff compared to content, has no
useful overview like in a three-pane NNTP client, etc. etc.
--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

Laws Of Project Management:

1. No major project is ever installed on time, within budgets,
with the staff that started it. Yours will not be the
first.
2. Projects progress quickly until they become 90 percent
complete, then they remain at 90 percent complete forever.
3. One advantage of fuzzy project objectives is that they let
you avoid the embarrassment of estimating the corresponding
costs.
4. When things are going well, something will go wrong. When
things just can't get any worse, they will. When things
appear to be going better you have overlooked something.
5. If project content is allowed to change freely, the rate of
change will exceed the rate of progress.
6. No system is ever completely debugged. Attempts to debug a
system inevitably introduce new bugs that are even harder
to find.
7. A carelessly planned project will take three times longer
to complete than expected; a carefully planned project will
take only twice as long.
8. Project teams detest progress reporting because it vividly
manifests their lack of progress.
Kyle Miller

Posts: 115
Registered: 10/4/99
Re: Wow, what happened here????
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  Posted: Dec 9, 2014 9:25 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
On 12/04/2014 05:20 AM, Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:
Fully agreed! I don't understand why people prefer web-based over NNTP.
Web-based is slower (AKA click-and-wait), has a static layout, has
terrible navigation, has too much fluff compared to content, has no
useful overview like in a three-pane NNTP client, etc. etc.

The click and wait comes with benefits like being able to read several messages in a
single click (Most if not all NNTP readers require clicking on each message you want to
read.), viewing inline formatting and images, and accessing attachments without having
to jump to another group. Other web benefits include being able to easily sharing
messages or thread via a link, bookmarking messages, and better search engine
discoverability.

Not sure what's meant by web having static layout. The content is not static. Its
structure is, which is actually an advantage.

And really, the wait is very short if you have a decent Internet connection and server.
Adem Meda

Posts: 495
Registered: 12/28/98
Re: Wow, what happened here????
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  Posted: Dec 10, 2014 1:29 AM   in response to: Kyle Miller in response to: Kyle Miller
Kyle Miller wrote:

On 12/04/2014 05:20 AM, Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:
Fully agreed! I don't understand why people prefer web-based over NNTP.
Web-based is slower (AKA click-and-wait), has a static layout, has
terrible navigation, has too much fluff compared to content, has no
useful overview like in a three-pane NNTP client, etc. etc.

The click and wait comes with benefits like being able to read several
messages in a single click (Most if not all NNTP readers require clicking on
each message you want to read.),

I use XanaNews and all I have to do is either double click on the NG or the
server to get all the new posts. I can, then, read anyone of them at my leasure.

viewing inline formatting and images, and
accessing attachments without having to jump to another group.

NNTP being text-only, download size per message is MUCH smaller; hence much
quicker.

Other web
benefits include being able to easily sharing messages or thread via a link,
bookmarking messages, and better search engine discoverability.

Actually, it is possible to bookmark NNTP mesages too. Except that XN (and
possibly others) doesn't properly implement them. I have solved it in my local
copy and works great.

[Actually, it's a bit of an orphaned feature since no one else uses it ;) ]

Not sure what's meant by web having static layout. The content is not static.
Its structure is, which is actually an advantage.

And really, the wait is very short if you have a decent Internet connection
and server.

I have 2 connections each 100 Mb here yet Web is always slow. You're not
limited by only the local bandwidth: Server's speed is important too. Then
there's always the anti-virus/malware software that you need to have and that
slows down things further.
Kyle Miller

Posts: 115
Registered: 10/4/99
Re: Wow, what happened here????
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  Posted: Dec 10, 2014 9:02 AM   in response to: Adem Meda in response to: Adem Meda
On 12/10/2014 03:29 AM, Adem Meda wrote:
The click and wait comes with benefits like being able to read several
messages in a single click (Most if not all NNTP readers require clicking on
each message you want to read.),

I use XanaNews and all I have to do is either double click on the NG or the
server to get all the new posts. I can, then, read anyone of them at my leasure.

Two points:

1) Can you view all messages on one page? Or, do you click each message to read it?
2) Now if you can get the entire world to use XanaNews, NNTP will be gold.

viewing inline formatting and images, and
accessing attachments without having to jump to another group.

NNTP being text-only, download size per message is MUCH smaller; hence much
quicker.

There are several solutions to that problem.
1) Image blocker browser add-ons. In Chromium/Chrome, the option to load images (and
with exceptions) is built-in.
2) Some forum software allows you the option to not show images by default.

Other web
benefits include being able to easily sharing messages or thread via a link,
bookmarking messages, and better search engine discoverability.

Actually, it is possible to bookmark NNTP mesages too. Except that XN (and
possibly others) doesn't properly implement them. I have solved it in my local
copy and works great.

It's not an easily transferable and universal link like HTTP links.

I have 2 connections each 100 Mb here yet Web is always slow. You're not
limited by only the local bandwidth: Server's speed is important too. Then
there's always the anti-virus/malware software that you need to have and that
slows down things further.

Sounds like a configuration problem on your network. Maybe HTTP traffic is throttled.
Kyle Miller

Posts: 115
Registered: 10/4/99
Re: Wow, what happened here????
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  Posted: Dec 10, 2014 9:11 AM   in response to: Adem Meda in response to: Adem Meda
On 12/10/2014 03:29 AM, Adem Meda wrote:
The click and wait comes with benefits like being able to read several
messages in a single click (Most if not all NNTP readers require clicking on
each message you want to read.),

I use XanaNews and all I have to do is either double click on the NG or the
server to get all the new posts. I can, then, read anyone of them at my leasure.

Two points:

1) Can you view all messages on one page? Or, do you click each message to read it?
2) Now if you can get the entire world to use XanaNews, NNTP will be gold.

viewing inline formatting and images, and
accessing attachments without having to jump to another group.

NNTP being text-only, download size per message is MUCH smaller; hence much
quicker.

There are several solutions to that problem.
1) Image blocker browser add-ons. In Chromium/Chrome, the option to load images (and
with exceptions) is built-in.
2) Some forum software allows you the option to not show images by default.

Other web
benefits include being able to easily sharing messages or thread via a link,
bookmarking messages, and better search engine discoverability.

Actually, it is possible to bookmark NNTP mesages too. Except that XN (and
possibly others) doesn't properly implement them. I have solved it in my local
copy and works great.

It's not an easily transferable and universal link like HTTP links.

I have 2 connections each 100 Mb here yet Web is always slow. You're not
limited by only the local bandwidth: Server's speed is important too. Then
there's always the anti-virus/malware software that you need to have and that
slows down things further.

Sounds like a configuration problem on your network. Maybe HTTP traffic is throttled.
Adem Meda

Posts: 495
Registered: 12/28/98
Re: Wow, what happened here????
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  Posted: Dec 10, 2014 9:55 AM   in response to: Kyle Miller in response to: Kyle Miller
Kyle Miller wrote:

1) Can you view all messages on one page? Or, do you click each message to
read it?

I don't know about you but I have never been able to read a whole page at a
glance (I know someone who can, but that's one in a million if not less).

I can however read quite fast and reading a few lines per post has never been a
problem.

2) Now if you can get the entire world to use XanaNews, NNTP will
be gold.

Horses for courses..

IOW, it doesn't have to be good enough for the whole world to be useful for me.

viewing inline formatting and images, and
accessing attachments without having to jump to another group.

NNTP being text-only, download size per message is MUCH smaller; hence much
quicker.

There are several solutions to that problem.
1) Image blocker browser add-ons. In Chromium/Chrome, the option to load
images (and with exceptions) is built-in.
2) Some forum software allows you the option to not show images by default.

I wasn't referring only to the content of the message: You're overlooking how
verbose the HTML protocol is.

HTML protocol was never designed for speed. It's great for human-readability
(hence extensible) but that's about it.

Actually, it is possible to bookmark NNTP mesages too. Except that XN (and
possibly others) doesn't properly implement them. I have solved it in my
local copy and works great.

It's not an easily transferable and universal link like HTTP links.

You don't need it to be 'universal'; it would be just fine if it worked with
the application that is designed for NNTP (think of how 'mailto' is handled).

The reason no one uses NNTP bookmarks/URLs is simply because no NNTP client (as
far as I know) handles 'nntp://'.

Sad thing is, it is not at all hard to add that to XN since Windows already has
provisions for registering clients for different protocols (again, think of
'mailto').

I have 2 connections each 100 Mb here yet Web is always slow. You're not
limited by only the local bandwidth: Server's speed is important too. Then
there's always the anti-virus/malware software that you need to have and
that slows down things further.

Sounds like a configuration problem on your network. Maybe HTTP traffic is
throttled.

:)

Slow is comparative.
Kyle Miller

Posts: 115
Registered: 10/4/99
Re: Wow, what happened here????
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  Posted: Dec 10, 2014 10:52 AM   in response to: Adem Meda in response to: Adem Meda
On 12/10/2014 11:55 AM, Adem Meda wrote:
Kyle Miller wrote:

1) Can you view all messages on one page? Or, do you click each message to
read it?

I don't know about you but I have never been able to read a whole page at a
glance (I know someone who can, but that's one in a million if not less).

With rich formatting (not available in NNTP), you can.

I wasn't referring only to the content of the message: You're overlooking how
verbose the HTML protocol is.

Caching helps greatly.

HTML protocol was never designed for speed. It's great for human-readability
(hence extensible) but that's about it.

It has to be fast enough. Worldwide usage shows the "web" is triumphing over NNTP. HTML,
along with several other technologies like CSS, JavaScript, caching, works well.

It's not an easily transferable and universal link like HTTP links.

You don't need it to be 'universal'; it would be just fine if it worked with
the application that is designed for NNTP (think of how 'mailto' is handled).

If I need to be able to send someone a reference with significant confidence someone can
easily read it regardless of the platform, then HTTP wins. No need to configure a
newsreader or find a NNTP client to install. Every modern device has browsing capability
of some sort, even TVs. NNTP, much, much less so.
Adem Meda

Posts: 495
Registered: 12/28/98
Re: Wow, what happened here????
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  Posted: Dec 10, 2014 12:07 PM   in response to: Kyle Miller in response to: Kyle Miller
Kyle Miller wrote:

On 12/10/2014 11:55 AM, Adem Meda wrote:
Kyle Miller wrote:

1) Can you view all messages on one page? Or, do you click each message to
read it?

I don't know about you but I have never been able to read a whole page at a
glance (I know someone who can, but that's one in a million if not less).

With rich formatting (not available in NNTP), you can.

Oh, you jest so subtly.. ;)

With RTF, the brain has to process not only the textual info but also the
differences in fonts, font sizes, colors and font styles (which, for the
purposes of information that is exchanged over NNTP is nothing but eye candy).

I wasn't referring only to the content of the message: You're overlooking
how verbose the HTML protocol is.

Caching helps greatly.

Again: You gotto be kidding.

Caching only helps if the page you're trying to access has been accessed before
(by you or someone else on the same caching server)... I rarely read the same
page ever.

HTML protocol was never designed for speed. It's great for human-readability
(hence extensible) but that's about it.

It has to be fast enough. Worldwide usage shows the "web" is triumphing over
NNTP. HTML, along with several other technologies like CSS, JavaScript,
caching, works well.

I hate to use derogatory language but overwhelming majority of Internet users
know nothing about the underlying infrastructure to be able to express a
preference.

Another reason why HTTP is so prevalent is mostly due to lazy/ignorant Sys
Admins: Users can have everything as long as it is over port 80.

What I do find funny is that while people like you promote HTTP/HTML because it
is more 'expressive', there are far greater number people who think SMS
(texting) is great..

If I need to be able to send someone a reference with significant confidence
someone can easily read it regardless of the platform, then HTTP wins. No
need to configure a newsreader or find a NNTP client to install. Every modern
device has browsing capability of some sort, even TVs. NNTP, much, much less
so.

You missed my references to 'mailto' protocol registration.

When you click on a 'mailto' URL/link and your mail client takes over.

Same thing is available/possible with NNTP; except, apparently, you are not
aware of it (but you're not alone; most people don't).

I just remembered one other thing why you don't have NNTP client on your TV or
toaster: NNTP is best with clients that can implement treeviews. Unfortunately,
some ass in his great (NOT) wisdom has left out treeviews from most /lean/ GUIs.
Kyle Miller

Posts: 115
Registered: 10/4/99
Re: Wow, what happened here????
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  Posted: Dec 10, 2014 1:59 PM   in response to: Adem Meda in response to: Adem Meda
On 12/10/2014 02:07 PM, Adem Meda wrote:
Kyle Miller wrote:
With rich formatting (not available in NNTP), you can.

Oh, you jest so subtly.. ;)

With RTF, the brain has to process not only the textual info but also the
differences in fonts, font sizes, colors and font styles (which, for the
purposes of information that is exchanged over NNTP is nothing but eye candy).

Distinction brings clarity. That's why the NNTP tried to mimic this functionality in a
basic way using asterisks for bolding, underscores for underlines and italicize with
slashes. The eye and brain can process colors and decorations faster than text.

I wasn't referring only to the content of the message: You're overlooking
how verbose the HTML protocol is.

Caching helps greatly.

Again: You gotto be kidding.

Caching only helps if the page you're trying to access has been accessed before
(by you or someone else on the same caching server)... I rarely read the same
page ever.

You should get up to speed on how web caching works. It's more advanced than that.

I hate to use derogatory language but overwhelming majority of Internet users
know nothing about the underlying infrastructure to be able to express a
preference.

Another reason HTTP is better. Users gravitate towards what works best without detail
knowledge of the mechanics.

What I do find funny is that while people like you promote HTTP/HTML because it
is more 'expressive', there are far greater number people who think SMS
(texting) is great..

Even it allows graphical emoticons and sending images which NNTP does not. And, it
supports push notifications, which NNTP does not.

You missed my references to 'mailto' protocol registration.

When you click on a 'mailto' URL/link and your mail client takes over.

Even that is shunned in favor on web forms because it's not user friendly or as
ubiquitous as the web.

Same thing is available/possible with NNTP; except, apparently, you are not
aware of it (but you're not alone; most people don't).

I've been using the Internet since it was just a Unix prompt. You still using Gopher?
It's so much more efficient than Google's web page.

I just remembered one other thing why you don't have NNTP client on your TV or
toaster: NNTP is best with clients that can implement treeviews. Unfortunately,
some ass in his great (NOT) wisdom has left out treeviews from most /lean/ GUIs.

Because tree views don't work well in every environment. Software ergonomics.
Markus Humm

Posts: 5,113
Registered: 11/9/03
Re: Wow, what happened here????
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  Posted: Dec 11, 2014 6:39 AM   in response to: Kyle Miller in response to: Kyle Miller
Am 10.12.2014 22:59, schrieb Kyle Miller:
On 12/10/2014 02:07 PM, Adem Meda wrote:
Kyle Miller wrote:

I hate to use derogatory language but overwhelming majority of Internet users
know nothing about the underlying infrastructure to be able to express a
preference.

Another reason HTTP is better. Users gravitate towards what works best without detail
knowledge of the mechanics.

Not really. Users tend to what they have been taught. NNTP was ommited
to be taught in most cases back when the web startet to get more mainstream.


What I do find funny is that while people like you promote HTTP/HTML because it
is more 'expressive', there are far greater number people who think SMS
(texting) is great..

Even it allows graphical emoticons and sending images which NNTP does not. And, it
supports push notifications, which NNTP does not.

That's not SMS then but MMS and that's even more expensive.
Do you have some statistics about how many SMS are being sent daily and
how many MMS? I doubt MMS is being used much. About push notification
you're of course right.

You missed my references to 'mailto' protocol registration.

When you click on a 'mailto' URL/link and your mail client takes over.

Even that is shunned in favor on web forms because it's not user friendly or as
ubiquitous as the web.

Web forms are not user friendly as they're always a "media break". Often
you don't get the text you send to save it locally and if you get you
get it in which form? Right - e-mail! In most cases it would be easier
to have a real e-mail address to send the contents to. Webforms tend
often to be used as one way means of communication.

Greetings

Markus
Kyle Miller

Posts: 115
Registered: 10/4/99
Re: Wow, what happened here????
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  Posted: Dec 15, 2014 8:34 AM   in response to: Markus Humm in response to: Markus Humm
On 12/11/2014 08:39 AM, Markus Humm wrote:
Not really. Users tend to what they have been taught. NNTP was ommited
to be taught in most cases back when the web startet to get more mainstream.

And if they see something more appealing than what they were taught, they move on. Thus,
NNTP's demise.

That's not SMS then but MMS and that's even more expensive.
Do you have some statistics about how many SMS are being sent daily and
how many MMS? I doubt MMS is being used much. About push notification
you're of course right.

To a user, it's all the same. In many markets, there is no cost difference.

You bring up a good point. MMS is an advancement on SMS. Even SMS grew up. NNTP? Not so
much.
Markus Humm

Posts: 5,113
Registered: 11/9/03
Re: Wow, what happened here????
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  Posted: Dec 10, 2014 1:33 PM   in response to: Adem Meda in response to: Adem Meda
Am 10.12.2014 18:55, schrieb Adem Meda:

It's not an easily transferable and universal link like HTTP links.

You don't need it to be 'universal'; it would be just fine if it worked with
the application that is designed for NNTP (think of how 'mailto' is handled).

The reason no one uses NNTP bookmarks/URLs is simply because no NNTP client (as
far as I know) handles 'nntp://'.

Sad thing is, it is not at all hard to add that to XN since Windows already has
provisions for registering clients for different protocols (again, think of
'mailto').

Isn't XanaNews sort of open source? If yes you could submit a patch ;-)

Greetings

Markus
Adem Meda

Posts: 495
Registered: 12/28/98
Re: Wow, what happened here????
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  Posted: Dec 10, 2014 4:32 PM   in response to: Markus Humm in response to: Markus Humm
Markus Humm wrote:

Isn't XanaNews sort of open source? If yes you could submit a patch ;-)

Until recently it hadn't bothered me enough to do something about it. When it
did, and I did, there was no one around as a go-to guy for a pacth.

Now there's Graeme, but my changes are buried somewhere in my heavily modified
code (I also modified the GUI and most class names etc.) so much so that a
patch is out of question now. Sorry.
John Treder

Posts: 349
Registered: 8/2/02
Re: Wow, what happened here????
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  Posted: Dec 10, 2014 10:06 AM   in response to: Adem Meda in response to: Adem Meda
Adem Meda wrote:

I have 2 connections each 100 Mb here yet Web is always slow. You're not
limited by only the local bandwidth: Server's speed is important too. Then
there's always the anti-virus/malware software that you need to have and that
slows down things further.

That's fast. My connection is rated at 12Mb/s max for download. It measures 6 Mb on a good day, 3 - 4 Mb on a slow day.
I can double the speed (2 phone lines) for triple the price. Woo hoo. All suppliers' "last mile" is AT&T, and there are no announced plans to upgrade.

--
John
Adem Meda

Posts: 495
Registered: 12/28/98
Re: Wow, what happened here????
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  Posted: Dec 10, 2014 12:07 PM   in response to: John Treder in response to: John Treder
John Treder wrote:

That's fast. My connection is rated at 12Mb/s max for download. It measures
6 Mb on a good day, 3 - 4 Mb on a slow day. I can double the speed (2 phone
lines) for triple the price. Woo hoo. All suppliers' "last mile" is AT&T,
and there are no announced plans to upgrade.

I suppose I am a little fortunate that there are a few alternatives here: I can
get as many lines as I would be prepared to pay for --VDSL or Ethernet, as well
as cable; plus GSM ones (I believe 4 Mbs is the highest but I have never tried
or even looked into the details).

I've been thinking of getting away from it all (i.e. move out to some place
else where things are less hectic). It is this kind of connectivity that's
keeping me from doing it. But, who knows, I might just pull the trigger and
move to somewhere where I too would complain about getting 4-6 Mbs.. :)

Anyway, about your connection: Why would you pay 3 times as much to add another
connection? (Or, did I read it wrong?)
John Treder

Posts: 349
Registered: 8/2/02
Re: Wow, what happened here????
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  Posted: Dec 10, 2014 11:00 PM   in response to: Adem Meda in response to: Adem Meda
Adem Meda wrote:

Anyway, about your connection: Why would you pay 3 times as much to add another
connection? (Or, did I read it wrong?)

You need to ask the providers. I think AT&T doesn't like mulut-line residential service. I'm retired, not a business in any sense of the word.
And I'm only 50 miles from San Francisco.

--
Tred
Quentin Correll


Posts: 2,412
Registered: 12/1/99
Re: Wow, what happened here????
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  Posted: Dec 11, 2014 10:46 AM   in response to: John Treder in response to: John Treder
John,

| That's fast. My connection is rated at 12Mb/s max for download. It
| measures 6 Mb on a good day, 3 - 4 Mb on a slow day.

I just tested my Comcast speeds: 65.66 Mb/s D/L and 12.11 Mb/s U/L.

--

Q

1.19.1.372 (Q's Broken Toolbar.)

John Treder

Posts: 349
Registered: 8/2/02
Re: Wow, what happened here????
Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this thread Reply
  Posted: Dec 11, 2014 5:05 PM   in response to: Quentin Correll in response to: Quentin Correll
Quentin Correll wrote:

John,

That's fast. My connection is rated at 12Mb/s max for download. It
measures 6 Mb on a good day, 3 - 4 Mb on a slow day.

I just tested my Comcast speeds: 65.66 Mb/s D/L and 12.11 Mb/s U/L.

I'm green. Lime green. BTW, I have Comcast too for TV, and their internet speed, when I tell them where I live, is the same as what I have now, and somewhat more expensive

--
Ol' Tred
Quentin Correll


Posts: 2,412
Registered: 12/1/99
Re: Wow, what happened here????
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  Posted: Dec 12, 2014 2:53 PM   in response to: John Treder in response to: John Treder
John,

| BTW, I have Comcast too for TV, and their internet speed, when I tell
| them where I live, is the same as what I have now, and somewhat more
| expensive

Bummer.

--

Q

1.19.1.372 (Q's Broken Toolbar.)
Quentin Correll


Posts: 2,412
Registered: 12/1/99
Re: Wow, what happened here????
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  Posted: Dec 12, 2014 2:57 PM   in response to: John Treder in response to: John Treder
John,

[Second reply.]

| BTW, I have Comcast too for TV, and their internet speed, when I tell
| them where I live, is the same as what I have now, and somewhat more
| expensive

I was thinking about that for a minute andfind I don't understand. If
your Comcast TV service is by coax cable then there's no reason why it
cannot be faster.

Comcast/Xfinity have been advertising on TV lately about "Doubling our
speed" for Internet service. You might consider rattling their cage
again and see what they now say.

--

Q

1.19.1.372 (Q's Broken Toolbar.)

John Treder

Posts: 349
Registered: 8/2/02
Re: Wow, what happened here????
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  Posted: Dec 12, 2014 5:29 PM   in response to: Quentin Correll in response to: Quentin Correll
Maybe I'll check them out one fine day. I have to eat cracked crab tonight. With David Coffaro Sauvignon Blanc '12.

--
John
Quentin Correll


Posts: 2,412
Registered: 12/1/99
Re: Wow, what happened here????
Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this thread Reply
  Posted: Dec 13, 2014 3:04 PM   in response to: John Treder in response to: John Treder
John,

| I have to eat cracked crab tonight. With David Coffaro Sauvignon
| Blanc '12.

Sounds delicious!

How was it?

--

Q

1.19.1.372 (Q's Broken Toolbar.)

John Treder

Posts: 349
Registered: 8/2/02
Re: Wow, what happened here????
Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this thread Reply
  Posted: Dec 13, 2014 8:14 PM   in response to: Quentin Correll in response to: Quentin Correll
Quentin Correll wrote:

John,

I have to eat cracked crab tonight. With David Coffaro Sauvignon
Blanc '12.

Sounds delicious!

How was it?

The way it sounds. ;^) I made some coleslaw to go with it, as I had a piece of cabbage that wasn't getting any younger. Worked very well.

--
Tredmill
Dalija Prasnikar

Posts: 2,325
Registered: 11/9/99
Re: Wow, what happened here????
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  Posted: Dec 10, 2014 1:36 AM   in response to: Kyle Miller in response to: Kyle Miller
Kyle Miller wrote:

And really, the wait is very short if you have a decent Internet connection and server.

My Internet connection is decent, but Embarcadero needs new server then for their
new community site. It is dog slow. I am reading this forums via web interface and they
are much, much, much faster (when they work).

--
Dalija Prasnikar
Brandon Staggs

Posts: 683
Registered: 3/3/01
Re: Wow, what happened here????
Click to report abuse...   Click to reply to this thread Reply
  Posted: Dec 10, 2014 4:47 AM   in response to: Kyle Miller in response to: Kyle Miller
"Kyle Miller" wrote on Tue, 9 Dec 2014 09:25:54 -0800:

The click and wait comes with benefits like being able to read several messages in a
single click (Most if not all NNTP readers require clicking on each message you want to
read.),

My reader (probably all of them) can be and is configured to download
all messages at once. I don't click anything-- pressing space scrolls
each message text and when the end is reached, moves to the next
message. If I don't want to read a message I press N instead.

Way faster than navigating threads on a web forum, in every case.

viewing inline formatting and images, and accessing attachments without having
to jump to another group.

That is a valid advantage for web forums.

Other web benefits include being able to easily sharing
messages or thread via a link,

NNTP has this, though it seems rarely used, probably because so few
people have NNTP set up. There was a time when even novice users had
Outlook Express automatically configured by their ISP and sharing NNTP
posts was trivial. But now web forums are easier for that, yes.

And really, the wait is very short if you have a decent Internet connection and server.

Web forum navigation is still ponderous by comparison. I can track
dozens of NNTP groups and keep up with them in a few minutes a day;
visiting multiple forums and keeping track of what I am interested in
there takes much, much more time.

--
Brandon Staggs
StudyLamp Software LLC
http://www.studylamp.com
Bo Berglund

Posts: 757
Registered: 10/23/02
Re: Wow, what happened here????
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  Posted: Dec 10, 2014 5:39 AM   in response to: Brandon Staggs in response to: Brandon Staggs
NNTP is the only decent way to follow development discussions such as these.

For one thing I am following about 15-20 sub-forums at Embarcadero and doing so using the web interface is totally impossible.
With my oldish Agent newsreader I can start the session by clicking the update button for each of these forums and it will get all new activity downloaded into threaded sections. Starting this takes about 15 seconds. The retrieval takes "forever" or surely almost a minute or so. :(
But I don't have to do anything then, I can walk away for that minute and when I am back EVERYTHING is available without further network access.
And it stays there too, so when I want to check up on an older discussion in a day or two I just fire up Agent and open that thread and it is all there, even without any Internet access at that time.
My Embarcadero news archives include the full history from 6-7 years back instantly available in my newsreader.

Beat that if you can with an on-line web based forum system!

However my collection was broken by the Embarcadero server crash this summer, when they brought it all up again they seem to not have included the data from around the crash time and the time before New Year 2013-14.
So I had to start another instance of the NNTP reader system and start over getting the posts from August 2014 as the first ones.
Kyle Miller

Posts: 115
Registered: 10/4/99
Re: Wow, what happened here????
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  Posted: Dec 10, 2014 9:18 AM   in response to: Bo Berglund in response to: Bo Berglund
On 12/10/2014 07:39 AM, Bo Berglund wrote:
NNTP is the only decent way to follow development discussions such as these.

For one thing I am following about 15-20 sub-forums at Embarcadero and doing so using the web interface is totally impossible.

Ever visit other developer forum web sites? It is very possible because it's happening
now. You just need to learn the tools of the forum software, like marking favorite
forums and topics. And, how to effectively use subscriptions.

My Embarcadero news archives include the full history from 6-7 years back instantly available in my newsreader.

If you truly need offline access, there are web capture browser add-ons that let you
download a web page. Once offline, you can search the pages and even do stuff like add
your own notes and highlight sections. Can Agent do that?

Beat that if you can with an on-line web based forum system!

Not only can you search web based forums, but you can also subscribe to the search so
that any time your search is satisfied with a new result, you are notified... instantly
if you wish.

So I had to start another instance of the NNTP reader system and start over getting the posts from August 2014 as the first ones.

Much less an issue with a properly backed up web forum. The host manages a backup for
everyone.
Markus Humm

Posts: 5,113
Registered: 11/9/03
Re: Wow, what happened here????
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  Posted: Dec 10, 2014 9:42 AM   in response to: Kyle Miller in response to: Kyle Miller
Am 10.12.2014 18:18, schrieb Kyle Miller:
On 12/10/2014 07:39 AM, Bo Berglund wrote:
NNTP is the only decent way to follow development discussions such as these.

For one thing I am following about 15-20 sub-forums at Embarcadero and doing so using the web interface is totally impossible.

Ever visit other developer forum web sites? It is very possible because it's happening
now. You just need to learn the tools of the forum software, like marking favorite
forums and topics. And, how to effectively use subscriptions.

My Embarcadero news archives include the full history from 6-7 years back instantly available in my newsreader.

If you truly need offline access, there are web capture browser add-ons that let you
download a web page. Once offline, you can search the pages and even do stuff like add
your own notes and highlight sections. Can Agent do that?

Beat that if you can with an on-line web based forum system!

Not only can you search web based forums, but you can also subscribe to the search so
that any time your search is satisfied with a new result, you are notified... instantly
if you wish.

So I had to start another instance of the NNTP reader system and start over getting the posts from August 2014 as the first ones.

Much less an issue with a properly backed up web forum. The host manages a backup for
everyone.

Hello,

have you thought already about all the overhead HTML etc. need before
anygthing usefull can be displayed in your browser window?

And as for your last one:

1. the host needs to do a proper backup, in EMBT's case the backup had
failed afaik. So it could happen to any web server as well.

2. if you have a local message base in your NNTP reader and the server
still contains the posts as well you already have a backup. In case
of web forums you need to install additional software to your browser
(btw. plugins for webbrowsers are currently getting out of fashion.
It's happening now as well!) and it's storage mechanism should
definitely support encryption as web content is way more "verbose"
(or bluintly put: bigger in size) for the same content (not even
regarding attachments or inline pictures). For most conversations
"text-only" is still enough.

Greetings

Markus
Kyle Miller

Posts: 115
Registered: 10/4/99
Re: Wow, what happened here????
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  Posted: Dec 10, 2014 11:24 AM   in response to: Markus Humm in response to: Markus Humm
On 12/10/2014 11:42 AM, Markus Humm wrote:
Hello,

have you thought already about all the overhead HTML etc. need before
anygthing usefull can be displayed in your browser window?

I have thought about the browser cache and dynamic HTML via JavaScript and CSS.

And as for your last one:

1. the host needs to do a proper backup, in EMBT's case the backup had
failed afaik. So it could happen to any web server as well.

Since the nearly all of the world has gone to the web, more likely there are services or
programs which make backup easier and more reliable. And, probably some good recovery
tools available.

2. if you have a local message base in your NNTP reader and the server
still contains the posts as well you already have a backup. In case
of web forums you need to install additional software to your browser
(btw. plugins for webbrowsers are currently getting out of fashion.
It's happening now as well!) and it's storage mechanism should

Plugins are out. Add-ons are still in.

definitely support encryption as web content is way more "verbose"
(or bluintly put: bigger in size) for the same content (not even
regarding attachments or inline pictures). For most conversations
"text-only" is still enough.

We want what is optimal for communicating, not what is just enough.
Markus Humm

Posts: 5,113
Registered: 11/9/03
Re: Wow, what happened here????
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  Posted: Dec 10, 2014 1:42 PM   in response to: Kyle Miller in response to: Kyle Miller
Am 10.12.2014 20:24, schrieb Kyle Miller:
On 12/10/2014 11:42 AM, Markus Humm wrote:
Hello,

have you thought already about all the overhead HTML etc. need before
anygthing usefull can be displayed in your browser window?

I have thought about the browser cache and dynamic HTML via JavaScript and CSS.

Ok, the browser can cache CSS and if a page consists of static HTML
pages those parts may be cached as well. But for each other element a
new TCP connection is necessary afaik, since HTTP 2.0 or SPDY haven't
yet taken over.

But for 90% of all discussions NNTP is just good enough, as some text
formatting is not needed in most cases and some clients even support
forms of it like this one or that one.


And as for your last one:

1. the host needs to do a proper backup, in EMBT's case the backup had
failed afaik. So it could happen to any web server as well.

Since the nearly all of the world has gone to the web, more likely there are services or
programs which make backup easier and more reliable. And, probably some good recovery
tools available.

It depends always on the exact server software and its requirements
(e.g. if some relational database is involved backup might be quite
different compared to just copying the files elsewhere).


2. if you have a local message base in your NNTP reader and the server
still contains the posts as well you already have a backup. In case
of web forums you need to install additional software to your browser
(btw. plugins for webbrowsers are currently getting out of fashion.
It's happening now as well!) and it's storage mechanism should

Plugins are out. Add-ons are still in.

Would you enlighten me about the difference please?
Both are programs to enhance the browser's capabilities, correct? But
what's the difference and why should I care?


definitely support encryption as web content is way more "verbose"
(or bluintly put: bigger in size) for the same content (not even
regarding attachments or inline pictures). For most conversations
"text-only" is still enough.

We want what is optimal for communicating, not what is just enough.

Optimal for communication are solutions which do not waste traffic and
lead to congestion of the networks.

How often do you need bold/italic/underlined text or even more coloured
text in a discussion?

Greetings

Markus
Kyle Miller

Posts: 115
Registered: 10/4/99
Re: Wow, what happened here????
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  Posted: Dec 15, 2014 8:40 AM   in response to: Markus Humm in response to: Markus Humm
On 12/10/2014 03:42 PM, Markus Humm wrote:
But for 90% of all discussions NNTP is just good enough, as some text
formatting is not needed in most cases and some clients even support
forms of it like this one or that one.

The world doesn't want good enough. They want better, and they have chosen HTTP.

Plugins are out. Add-ons are still in.

Would you enlighten me about the difference please?

https://www.google.com/search?q=difference+between+browser+plug-in+add-on

Both are programs to enhance the browser's capabilities, correct? But
what's the difference and why should I care?

Because there are important technical differences.

Optimal for communication are solutions which do not waste traffic and
lead to congestion of the networks.

What you call waste is not waste to others. It enhances communications.

How often do you need bold/italic/underlined text or even more coloured
text in a discussion?

Doesn't matter. I want it when it's available.
Adem Meda

Posts: 495
Registered: 12/28/98
Re: Wow, what happened here????
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  Posted: Dec 17, 2014 5:03 AM   in response to: Kyle Miller in response to: Kyle Miller
Kyle Miller wrote:

On 12/10/2014 03:42 PM, Markus Humm wrote:
But for 90% of all discussions NNTP is just good enough, as some text
formatting is not needed in most cases and some clients even support
forms of it like this one or that one.

The world doesn't want good enough. They want better, and they have chosen
HTTP.

You seem to have turned this discussion into something of a clash of fan/atics.
It doesn't have to be like that.

Anyway.

It is not entirely (or even to a small measure) correct that the world has
chosen HTTP because it is better; HTTP (together with HTML and JS) has become
something of a lowest common denominator: The trio (HTTP + HTML + JS) is
ubiquitous; they are available practically everywhere.

It is great; especially when you want your browser to be everything including
being a VM: You run entire OSes in your browser.

With the onset of HTML5, we're seeing more and more diversity: Even games that
used to need every single ounce of local CPU/GPU power are being offered on
this trio.

But, the other side of the coin is this: Average web page size has shot up to
beyond 1.6 MByte and still increasing.

http://www.sitepoint.com/average-page-weights-increase-32-2013/
http://www.websiteoptimization.com/speed/tweak/average-web-page/
http://httparchive.org/trends.php

Now.. we can discuss this 'development' (in the sense of 'progress') at various
levels.

At the school kid level, this is all great --the more eye candy the better.

At the commercial vendor level, again, it is all great --you can feed/stuff
your audience with any kind of commercial rubbish you deem fit.

At the technical level, however, this is all far too wasteful. Just to get an
update (to see who has replied to you) you need to transfer MBs of data from
one end of the world to the other.

All those MBs of data don't magically go from one end to the other: You need
bigger pipes, ISP/upstream level caching etc.; as well as local processing
power.

You might want to watch this to get a general overview of power consumtion of
internet: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O8-LDLyKaBM

Anway.

Looking at the bigger picture, I believe it is wrong to go the generalized
route when a specialized one does it a lot more efficiently.

And, needless to say, for the kind of information that is exchanged, NNTP is a
lot more efficient than the above trio.

QED: "Better" isn't always what you think it is.
Kyle Miller

Posts: 115
Registered: 10/4/99
Re: Wow, what happened here????
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  Posted: Dec 17, 2014 8:55 AM   in response to: Adem Meda in response to: Adem Meda
On 12/17/2014 07:03 AM, Adem Meda wrote:
You seem to have turned this discussion into something of a clash of fan/atics.
It doesn't have to be like that.

More like persuading a Luddite class that HTTP isn't going to ruin their interactive
experience.

It is not entirely (or even to a small measure) correct that the world has
chosen HTTP because it is better; HTTP (together with HTML and JS) has become
something of a lowest common denominator: The trio (HTTP + HTML + JS) is
ubiquitous; they are available practically everywhere.

When I say "better," you are thinking in mechanics. I am saying it's better in its
overall deliverance to provide an effective communications platform. In that regard, the
world has chosen.

With the onset of HTML5, we're seeing more and more diversity: Even games that
used to need every single ounce of local CPU/GPU power are being offered on
this trio.

And Firemonkey rendered as HTML5. :)

But, the other side of the coin is this: Average web page size has shot up to
beyond 1.6 MByte and still increasing.

Size doesn't tell the whole story. Web pages also do more. They are more interactive,
more communicative and require less page jumps than sites of old.

At the technical level, however, this is all far too wasteful. Just to get an
update (to see who has replied to you) you need to transfer MBs of data from
one end of the world to the other.

It's only waste if it is not serving its purpose. For the web, it's serving and satisfying.

Do you browse the web using Chrome, Firefox, IE, etc or with Lynx? If not the latter,
why not?

All those MBs of data don't magically go from one end to the other: You need
bigger pipes, ISP/upstream level caching etc.; as well as local processing
power.

That's the nature of tech progress. We enjoy high def video, and it requires more
resources to accomplish it. Do you think the extra space a HD Blu-ray video requires is
not worth it compared to watching a movie on VHS or DVD?

Content quality grew as infrastructure to deliver it grew.

You might want to watch this to get a general overview of power consumtion of
internet: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O8-LDLyKaBM

Can't watch the video right now, but how much of that energy is from renewable sources?
How much energy is saved by the Internet, e.g. people working from home and not driving
to work, paper saved because of email, etc.?

But, maybe you're right. I'm turning off my computer and writing you a letter. Pen and
paper is much more efficient because it takes 0MB to transmit and doesn't have all the
"cruft" of NNTP or HTTP. :-P

And, needless to say, for the kind of information that is exchanged, NNTP is a
lot more efficient than the above trio.

Depends on how you define efficient. It is more than just how many bits/bytes are exchanged.

QED: "Better" isn't always what you think it is.

NNTP may win one or two points, but it pales in comparison to HTTP/web wins.
Markus Humm

Posts: 5,113
Registered: 11/9/03
Re: Wow, what happened here????
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  Posted: Dec 17, 2014 11:21 AM   in response to: Kyle Miller in response to: Kyle Miller
Am 17.12.2014 um 17:55 schrieb Kyle Miller:


Depends on how you define efficient. It is more than just how many bits/bytes are exchanged.

Indeed. But: the new capabilities are often enough only used for
transfering even more advertising and colourfull bells and whistles in
form of unnecessary graphic contents (some images here and there are ok,
but some just overdo) or videos nobody requested (most of them advertising).

And for your power consumption: even if the electric energy should be
from renewable ressources it still needs further ressources to build all
those solar cells, wind turbines and all the other eqpipment etc.

So if all those improvements would only be used for real communication
improvements I'd be nearer to your opinion. But as quite a lot of them
are just wasted I don't agree with you.

Greetings

Markus
Kyle Miller

Posts: 115
Registered: 10/4/99
Re: Wow, what happened here????
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  Posted: Dec 17, 2014 12:08 PM   in response to: Markus Humm in response to: Markus Humm
On 12/17/2014 01:21 PM, Markus Humm wrote:
Indeed. But: the new capabilities are often enough only used for
transfering even more advertising and colourfull bells and whistles in
form of unnecessary graphic contents (some images here and there are ok,
but some just overdo) or videos nobody requested (most of them advertising).

Do you think Embarcadero would implement such a web forum? Poor implementation is not
the fault of the technology. NNTP shortcomings are due to limitations in the technology.
No matter how great the NNTP admin is, NNTP will always fall short overall.

So if all those improvements would only be used for real communication
improvements I'd be nearer to your opinion. But as quite a lot of them
are just wasted I don't agree with you.

You think if Emb implemented a new forum system with all the bells and whistles I
mentioned that it would be frequently abused? (Note that some of those features are per
user and would not affect you at all.) This is managed by forum admins and sticky posts
at the top of a forum (not possible with NNTP) explaining forum rules and guidelines.

And again, the tech cannot be blamed for its misuse. Even NNTP can be abused. Not NNTP's
fault.
Markus Humm

Posts: 5,113
Registered: 11/9/03
Re: Wow, what happened here????
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  Posted: Dec 18, 2014 12:27 PM   in response to: Kyle Miller in response to: Kyle Miller
Am 17.12.2014 um 21:08 schrieb Kyle Miller:
On 12/17/2014 01:21 PM, Markus Humm wrote:
Indeed. But: the new capabilities are often enough only used for
transfering even more advertising and colourfull bells and whistles in
form of unnecessary graphic contents (some images here and there are ok,
but some just overdo) or videos nobody requested (most of them advertising).

Do you think Embarcadero would implement such a web forum? Poor implementation is not
the fault of the technology. NNTP shortcomings are due to limitations in the technology.
No matter how great the NNTP admin is, NNTP will always fall short overall.

So if all those improvements would only be used for real communication
improvements I'd be nearer to your opinion. But as quite a lot of them
are just wasted I don't agree with you.

You think if Emb implemented a new forum system with all the bells and whistles I
mentioned that it would be frequently abused?

Hello,

where did I specifically talk about EMBT or its forums?
I didn't. I talked about general HTML/HTML5 usage.

Greetings

Markus
Adem Meda

Posts: 495
Registered: 12/28/98
Re: Wow, what happened here????
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  Posted: Dec 17, 2014 12:34 PM   in response to: Kyle Miller in response to: Kyle Miller
Kyle Miller wrote:

On 12/17/2014 07:03 AM, Adem Meda wrote:

When I say "better," you are thinking in mechanics.

Mechanics? Perhaps. But only in the sense that is a small subset of its
economics.

I am saying it's better
in its overall deliverance to provide an effective communications platform.
In that regard, the world has chosen.

Well.. world has also chosen junk food.. Do you really expect me to go by what
"world" decides?

The only time I consider that argument relevant is when I have something to
sell the "world" --as selling what "world" is more inclined to buy means
selling will a lot easier; that's all.

But, the other side of the coin is this: Average web page size has shot up
to beyond 1.6 MByte and still increasing.

Size doesn't tell the whole story. Web pages also do more. They are more
interactive, more communicative and require less page jumps than sites of old.

Some pages do. But, they are a small fraction.

Forums and their ilk do not need that sort of interactiveness nor the eye candy.

I don't know whether you follow Slashdot, but their users recently revolted
against a beta that was (and mildly at that) propsing to bring about multimedia
and "interactiveness".

At the technical level, however, this is all far too wasteful. Just to get
an update (to see who has replied to you) you need to transfer MBs of data
from one end of the world to the other.

It's only waste if it is not serving its purpose. For the web, it's serving
and satisfying.

Yep. It's great to watch movies and listen to audio.

But, to give you an example, during our exchanges here, I haven't missed (i.e.
wished there were) any of that (multimedia stuff).

Did you?

If not, NNTP is doing just fine.

Do you browse the web using Chrome, Firefox, IE, etc or with Lynx? If not the
latter, why not?

You're wandering.. I wasn't talking about EVERYTHING that is available in the
Web. I am only referring to posting messages --which Lynx isn't a good tool
for; but XN is.

All those MBs of data don't magically go from one end to the other: You need
bigger pipes, ISP/upstream level caching etc.; as well as local processing
power.

That's the nature of tech progress. We enjoy high def video, and it requires
more resources to accomplish it. Do you think the extra space a HD Blu-ray
video requires is not worth it compared to watching a movie on VHS or DVD?

Recently, I have started wondering about that too.

You see, I have 3 monitors here (30 inch, 2560x1600), one of which is almost
exclusively reserved to wathing things (films, video footages from varoius
local sources etc.) and I am yet to notice the difference between 'full HD'
(1980x1020) and 'half HD' (720x?).

Given that, I wonder if I really need any higher resolution ever.

[I suppose I might that sort of thing only when I have a full-wall display;
but, even then I am not going to watch the thing 50cm away.]

Content quality grew as infrastructure to deliver it grew.

Oh boy.. I think I have lost you just after you called resolution and frame
rate (and, I suppose bandwidth) "Content quality"..

From my POV, "content quality" is a lot more to do with the quality of the
content itself (i.e. I am not one to judge a book by its cover).

Can't watch the video right now, but how much of that energy is from
renewable sources? How much energy is saved by the Internet, e.g. people
working from home and not driving to work, paper saved because of email, etc.?

Interesting question; except that, onset of Internet does not seem to have
caused any reduction in anyone's consumption (of energy or anything else).

But, maybe you're right. I'm turning off my computer and writing you a
letter. Pen and paper is much more efficient because it takes 0MB to transmit
and doesn't have all the "cruft" of NNTP or HTTP. :-P

Considering the kind of arguements you've been putting forward, I am beginning
to believe that would be better ;)

QED: "Better" isn't always what you think it is.

NNTP may win one or two points, but it pales in comparison to HTTP/web wins.

Wins what?
Kyle Miller

Posts: 115
Registered: 10/4/99
Re: Wow, what happened here????
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  Posted: Dec 17, 2014 3:19 PM   in response to: Adem Meda in response to: Adem Meda
On 12/17/2014 02:34 PM, Adem Meda wrote:
Kyle Miller wrote:
I am saying it's better
in its overall deliverance to provide an effective communications platform.
In that regard, the world has chosen.

Well.. world has also chosen junk food.. Do you really expect me to go by what
"world" decides?

The world chose junk food because it's efficient and fosters communication?

If there is reason to believe what the world has chosen is not ordered toward the good,
then no. But, there is nothing notably bad about using web forums. You've noted the
transfer size. That is insufficient reason to judge it as bad.

Size doesn't tell the whole story. Web pages also do more. They are more
interactive, more communicative and require less page jumps than sites of old.

Some pages do. But, they are a small fraction.

Forums and their ilk do not need that sort of interactiveness nor the eye candy.

Millions (billions?) are utilizing the interactiveness and what you call eye candy and
find it very effective. NNTP? No so much.

I don't know whether you follow Slashdot, but their users recently revolted
against a beta that was (and mildly at that) propsing to bring about multimedia
and "interactiveness".

But they are still using a web interface. Aren't they? Not my favorite by far, but it is
a web interface.

How many slashdotters were demanding an NNTP interface? <crickets>

Do you browse the web using Chrome, Firefox, IE, etc or with Lynx? If not the
latter, why not?

You're wandering.. I wasn't talking about EVERYTHING that is available in the
Web. I am only referring to posting messages --which Lynx isn't a good tool
for; but XN is.

This is about the claimed superiority of NNTP, its text only and simple approach. Not
wandering.

XN doesn't run on my phone or tablet. XN doesn't keep my reading sync'ed between devices
either, e.g. Windows machine 1 is out of sync with Windows machine 2.

That's the nature of tech progress. We enjoy high def video, and it requires
more resources to accomplish it. Do you think the extra space a HD Blu-ray
video requires is not worth it compared to watching a movie on VHS or DVD?

You see, I have 3 monitors here (30 inch, 2560x1600), one of which is almost
exclusively reserved to wathing things (films, video footages from varoius
local sources etc.) and I am yet to notice the difference between 'full HD'
(1980x1020) and 'half HD' (720x?).

3 monitors? Oh, what waste of resources. Feel guilty?

Can't tell diff between DVD and Blu-ray? You need glasses or better monitor or a better
encoded disc.

Content quality grew as infrastructure to deliver it grew.

Oh boy.. I think I have lost you just after you called resolution and frame
rate (and, I suppose bandwidth) "Content quality"..

From my POV, "content quality" is a lot more to do with the quality of the
content itself (i.e. I am not one to judge a book by its cover).

The quality of the content product, not the quality of the product's content. For
example, the ability to deliver lossless audio on Blu-ray brought movie audio home at a
level of quality heard before.

Obviously the infrastructure has nothing to do whether a movie script or music track is
good. No need to be pedantic.

Interesting question; except that, onset of Internet does not seem to have
caused any reduction in anyone's consumption (of energy or anything else).

I read the Internet is going the way of AOL.

There are many variables which affect consumption. The Internet is not a silver bullet,
but a contributing factor to reducing consumption.

NNTP may win one or two points, but it pales in comparison to HTTP/web wins.

Wins what?

On the pros. NNTP pros < HTTP/web pros.
Markus Humm

Posts: 5,113
Registered: 11/9/03
Re: Wow, what happened here????
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  Posted: Dec 17, 2014 11:16 AM   in response to: Adem Meda in response to: Adem Meda
Am 17.12.2014 um 14:03 schrieb Adem Meda:

QED: "Better" isn't always what you think it is.

+1
Kyle Miller

Posts: 115
Registered: 10/4/99
Re: Wow, what happened here????
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  Posted: Dec 17, 2014 12:15 PM   in response to: Markus Humm in response to: Markus Humm
On 12/17/2014 01:16 PM, Markus Humm wrote:
Am 17.12.2014 um 14:03 schrieb Adem Meda:

QED: "Better" isn't always what you think it is.

+1

If this was a web forum, you could just click a button to show your agreement rather
than create an entirely new post.
Adem Meda

Posts: 495
Registered: 12/28/98
Re: Wow, what happened here????
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  Posted: Dec 17, 2014 1:06 PM   in response to: Kyle Miller in response to: Kyle Miller
Kyle Miller wrote:

On 12/17/2014 01:16 PM, Markus Humm wrote:
Am 17.12.2014 um 14:03 schrieb Adem Meda:

QED: "Better" isn't always what you think it is.

+1

If this was a web forum, you could just click a button to show your agreement
rather than create an entirely new post.

Except that me/you and everybody else would have had to (re)load MBs of cruft
just to see that.
Kyle Miller

Posts: 115
Registered: 10/4/99
Re: Wow, what happened here????
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  Posted: Dec 17, 2014 3:20 PM   in response to: Adem Meda in response to: Adem Meda
On 12/17/2014 03:06 PM, Adem Meda wrote:
Except that me/you and everybody else would have had to (re)load MBs of cruft
just to see that.

Again, you browse the web with Lynx only. Right? Wouldn't want to load all the cruft.

My browser has optimal caching. It doesn't reload much, a very acceptable amount.
Markus Humm

Posts: 5,113
Registered: 11/9/03
Re: Wow, what happened here????
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  Posted: Dec 18, 2014 12:30 PM   in response to: Kyle Miller in response to: Kyle Miller
Am 18.12.2014 um 00:20 schrieb Kyle Miller:
On 12/17/2014 03:06 PM, Adem Meda wrote:
Except that me/you and everybody else would have had to (re)load MBs of cruft
just to see that.

Again, you browse the web with Lynx only. Right? Wouldn't want to load all the cruft.

My browser has optimal caching. It doesn't reload much, a very acceptable amount.

Hello,

caching doesn't depend o whether the browser is a text only application
like Lynx or a graphical one like IE, FF etc.

So better let Lynx away from your posts, it doesn't do much good for
your reputation here.

Greetings

Markus
Kyle Miller

Posts: 115
Registered: 10/4/99
Re: Wow, what happened here????
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  Posted: Dec 22, 2014 11:25 AM   in response to: Markus Humm in response to: Markus Humm
On 12/18/2014 02:30 PM, Markus Humm wrote:
Am 18.12.2014 um 00:20 schrieb Kyle Miller:
Again, you browse the web with Lynx only. Right? Wouldn't want to load all the cruft.

My browser has optimal caching. It doesn't reload much, a very acceptable amount.

caching doesn't depend o whether the browser is a text only application
like Lynx or a graphical one like IE, FF etc.

So better let Lynx away from your posts, it doesn't do much good for
your reputation here.

You have never used Lynx. Have you? If you did, you would understand my comment and not
make connections with Lynx. Apples and oranges.
Markus Humm

Posts: 5,113
Registered: 11/9/03
Re: Wow, what happened here????
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  Posted: Dec 22, 2014 2:42 PM   in response to: Kyle Miller in response to: Kyle Miller
Am 22.12.2014 um 20:25 schrieb Kyle Miller:
On 12/18/2014 02:30 PM, Markus Humm wrote:
Am 18.12.2014 um 00:20 schrieb Kyle Miller:
Again, you browse the web with Lynx only. Right? Wouldn't want to load all the cruft.

My browser has optimal caching. It doesn't reload much, a very acceptable amount.

caching doesn't depend o whether the browser is a text only application
like Lynx or a graphical one like IE, FF etc.

So better let Lynx away from your posts, it doesn't do much good for
your reputation here.

You have never used Lynx. Have you? If you did, you would understand my comment and not
make connections with Lynx. Apples and oranges.

Hello,

you're wrong. I did use Lynx (> 10 years ago). It is for text mode
access to WWW. But that doesn't tell anything about it's caching
features (whether it has some or not).

The way a browser presents the HTML website to a user is in no way
connected to having a cache or not.

Greetings

Markus
Kyle Miller

Posts: 115
Registered: 10/4/99
Re: Wow, what happened here????
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  Posted: Dec 22, 2014 2:57 PM   in response to: Markus Humm in response to: Markus Humm
On 12/22/2014 04:42 PM, Markus Humm wrote:
Am 22.12.2014 um 20:25 schrieb Kyle Miller:
You have never used Lynx. Have you? If you did, you would understand my comment and not
make connections with Lynx. Apples and oranges.

The way a browser presents the HTML website to a user is in no way
connected to having a cache or not.

But needing to use cache depends on what it's fetching. What it's fetching depends on
what it thinks it needs to render. Lynx did not pull in images and other such stuff it
can't render. Thus, it is never cached.
Markus Humm

Posts: 5,113
Registered: 11/9/03
Re: Wow, what happened here????
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  Posted: Dec 17, 2014 11:14 AM   in response to: Kyle Miller in response to: Kyle Miller
Am 15.12.2014 um 17:40 schrieb Kyle Miller:
On 12/10/2014 03:42 PM, Markus Humm wrote:
But for 90% of all discussions NNTP is just good enough, as some text
formatting is not needed in most cases and some clients even support
forms of it like this one or that one.

The world doesn't want good enough. They want better, and they have chosen HTTP.

Plugins are out. Add-ons are still in.

Would you enlighten me about the difference please?

https://www.google.com/search?q=difference+between+browser+plug-in+add-on

Both are programs to enhance the browser's capabilities, correct? But
what's the difference and why should I care?

Because there are important technical differences.

What an original explanation.
It entirely lacks all necessary depth to help me understand those
differences. I also haven't seen a thorough enough explanation of those
differences in my favourite webbrowser (Firefox) yet, so it's either
burried deep in help or somewhere like it or it's not important. because
if the distinguishion would be really that important they'd explain it
up front. Wouldn't they? Or go they along with the "let's not explain
too much to the user as it could confuse a few of them even if it
otherwise would help most others" mantra so many applications and
vendors follow these days just to make something short and look easy.

Greetings

Markus
Kyle Miller

Posts: 115
Registered: 10/4/99
Re: Wow, what happened here????
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  Posted: Dec 17, 2014 12:14 PM   in response to: Markus Humm in response to: Markus Humm
On 12/17/2014 01:14 PM, Markus Humm wrote:
Am 15.12.2014 um 17:40 schrieb Kyle Miller:
On 12/10/2014 03:42 PM, Markus Humm wrote:
But for 90% of all discussions NNTP is just good enough, as some text
formatting is not needed in most cases and some clients even support
forms of it like this one or that one.

The world doesn't want good enough. They want better, and they have chosen HTTP.

Plugins are out. Add-ons are still in.

Would you enlighten me about the difference please?

https://www.google.com/search?q=difference+between+browser+plug-in+add-on

Both are programs to enhance the browser's capabilities, correct? But
what's the difference and why should I care?

Because there are important technical differences.

What an original explanation.
It entirely lacks all necessary depth to help me understand those
differences. I also haven't seen a thorough enough explanation of those
differences in my favourite webbrowser (Firefox) yet, so it's either
burried deep in help or somewhere like it or it's not important. because
if the distinguishion would be really that important they'd explain it
up front. Wouldn't they? Or go they along with the "let's not explain
too much to the user as it could confuse a few of them even if it
otherwise would help most others" mantra so many applications and
vendors follow these days just to make something short and look easy.

As some of the links in the Google search mentioned,

1) Add-ons, aka extensions, extends the existing functionality of a browser whereas a
plug-in can introduce an entirely new function.
2) Add-ons are developed using a restricted set of techs, javascript, CSS, DOM, etc.
Plug-ins can be written in almost anything. This means plug-ins can be a greater
security risk than add-ons.
3) An add-on can call a plug-in but a plug-in can't call an add-on.
Dalija Prasnikar

Posts: 2,325
Registered: 11/9/99
Re: Wow, what happened here????
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  Posted: Dec 11, 2014 2:13 AM   in response to: Kyle Miller in response to: Kyle Miller
Kyle Miller wrote:

We want what is optimal for communicating, not what is just enough.

I am reading this from web browser only because it is more convenient
for me than using NNTP client (I switch computers often), and I
prefer the way this forums are organized much more than any other.

Usually, web forums don't support long conversations well, and have
too much cruft. The only thing I now miss here are blue dots that had
to be sacrificed after recent crashes.

--
Dalija Prasnikar
David Berneda

Posts: 205
Registered: 5/5/98
Re: Wow, what happened here????
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  Posted: Dec 11, 2014 5:09 AM   in response to: Dalija Prasnikar in response to: Dalija Prasnikar
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:
Kyle Miller wrote:

We want what is optimal for communicating, not what is just enough.

I am reading this from web browser only because it is more convenient
for me than using NNTP client (I switch computers often), and I
prefer the way this forums are organized much more than any other.

Usually, web forums don't support long conversations well, and have
too much cruft. The only thing I now miss here are blue dots that had
to be sacrificed after recent crashes.

--
Dalija Prasnikar

I've noticed these forums via web browser are much faster since yesterday evening, faster than nntp and faster than ever.

regards
david
Kyle Miller

Posts: 115
Registered: 10/4/99
Re: Wow, what happened here????
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  Posted: Dec 15, 2014 8:46 AM   in response to: Dalija Prasnikar in response to: Dalija Prasnikar
On 12/11/2014 04:13 AM, Dalija Prasnikar wrote:
Usually, web forums don't support long conversations well, and have
too much cruft. The only thing I now miss here are blue dots that had
to be sacrificed after recent crashes.

I find web forums help keep people on topic because everyone is following the same
thread. It's easy for NNTP discussions to go off topic and an entire branch in a thread
becomes uninteresting and unrelated to the original post. When you return, you have to
remember what branch you are trying to ignore.

Another positive for web forums is the ability to give reputation points for people who
contribute productively. They can earn statuses which make them standout. Yet another
feature not available in NNTP.
Markus Humm

Posts: 5,113
Registered: 11/9/03
Re: Wow, what happened here????
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  Posted: Dec 17, 2014 11:22 AM   in response to: Kyle Miller in response to: Kyle Miller
Am 15.12.2014 um 17:46 schrieb Kyle Miller:
On 12/11/2014 04:13 AM, Dalija Prasnikar wrote:
Usually, web forums don't support long conversations well, and have
too much cruft. The only thing I now miss here are blue dots that had
to be sacrificed after recent crashes.

I find web forums help keep people on topic because everyone is following the same
thread. It's easy for NNTP discussions to go off topic and an entire branch in a thread
becomes uninteresting and unrelated to the original post. When you return, you have to
remember what branch you are trying to ignore.

Another positive for web forums is the ability to give reputation points for people who
contribute productively. They can earn statuses which make them standout. Yet another
feature not available in NNTP.

Hello,

I guess most newsreaders have the capability to declare parts of threads
as to be ignored. So they won't get presented to you or at least no new
messages happening in them.

In most web forums that's not possible. If discussion goes "astray"
you're mostly forced to manually skip those parts.

Greetings

Markus

Kyle Miller

Posts: 115
Registered: 10/4/99
Re: Wow, what happened here????
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  Posted: Dec 17, 2014 12:19 PM   in response to: Markus Humm in response to: Markus Humm
On 12/17/2014 01:22 PM, Markus Humm wrote:
In most web forums that's not possible. If discussion goes "astray"
you're mostly forced to manually skip those parts.

Web forums are usually first crowd sourced moderated. The admin will step in and branch
off conversations when they go astray. This way, the content of a thread titled
"Delphi's Performance" really contains such.

On Emb's NNTP server, a thread may start that way, and you may find subthreads on space
and TV dinners. So, in this way, NNTP is again less efficient than web forums.
Adem Meda

Posts: 495
Registered: 12/28/98
Re: Wow, what happened here????
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  Posted: Dec 17, 2014 1:06 PM   in response to: Kyle Miller in response to: Kyle Miller
Kyle Miller wrote:

Web forums are usually first crowd sourced moderated.

Actually, this is probably the one thing I would steal from web forums over to
NNTP --ability to give moderation points.

Having said that, I am yet to see an algo (about how these points shuold be
aggreagted) that satisfies a majority of users.

Still, NNTP could easily be extended to facilitate user moderation points.

Automatic bozo-binning together with letting the offending person would go a
long way to sort out things.

Just imagine where Rudy would end up for performance in non-tech. <VBG>
Markus Humm

Posts: 5,113
Registered: 11/9/03
Re: Wow, what happened here????
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  Posted: Dec 18, 2014 12:32 PM   in response to: Adem Meda in response to: Adem Meda
Am 17.12.2014 um 22:06 schrieb Adem Meda:
Kyle Miller wrote:

Web forums are usually first crowd sourced moderated.

Actually, this is probably the one thing I would steal from web forums over to
NNTP --ability to give moderation points.

Having said that, I am yet to see an algo (about how these points shuold be
aggreagted) that satisfies a majority of users.

Still, NNTP could easily be extended to facilitate user moderation points.

Automatic bozo-binning together with letting the offending person would go a
long way to sort out things.

Just imagine where Rudy would end up for performance in non-tech. <VBG>

Hello,

it is possible to set up moderated NNTP forums.
Some forums I hav read in the past (not on this server) were in fact
moderated. So no real benefit for web forums here...

Greetings

Markus
Adem Meda

Posts: 495
Registered: 12/28/98
Re: Wow, what happened here????
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  Posted: Dec 18, 2014 1:40 PM   in response to: Markus Humm in response to: Markus Humm
Markus Humm wrote:

it is possible to set up moderated NNTP forums.

Sure it is. I do remember participating in such (moderated) groups in Usenet
decades ago.

Trouble is, 'moderated' in that sense usually means a designated dictator being
in charge.

If s/he does not like/agree with what you post, your post may never see the
light of day --irrespective of whether wat you said was against the policies of
that NG.

A (much more mild) version of such moderation does exist here too; but (even
though I have been temporarily banned once) it doesn't bother me.

BTW, by 'moderation', I was referring to something akin to reader tagging. IOW,
readers tagging posts as, e.g., 'flamebit', 'troll', 'interesting' etc. Plus,
there's 'karma' donation process.

Some forums I hav read in the past (not on this server) were in fact
moderated. So no real benefit for web forums here...

Actually, web forums are much worse: Unless you do make special effort to
locally save a copy of each everything you post, you end up having no copy of
what it was that never got past moderation.

Most (if not all) NNTP clients, since they work pretty much like mail clients,
do/can store a local copy.

Workin similar mail clients has other benefits too: You get to keep a copy of
everything. Which means, unlike the web forums, if the server is shutdown, you
don't get to lose everything.
Kyle Miller

Posts: 115
Registered: 10/4/99
Re: Wow, what happened here????
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  Posted: Dec 10, 2014 9:11 AM   in response to: Brandon Staggs in response to: Brandon Staggs
On 12/10/2014 06:47 AM, Brandon Staggs wrote:
"Kyle Miller" wrote on Tue, 9 Dec 2014 09:25:54 -0800:

The click and wait comes with benefits like being able to read several messages in a
single click (Most if not all NNTP readers require clicking on each message you want to
read.),

My reader (probably all of them) can be and is configured to download
all messages at once. I don't click anything-- pressing space scrolls
each message text and when the end is reached, moves to the next
message. If I don't want to read a message I press N instead.

Downloading message all at once is different than navigating numerous messages at once.

Way faster than navigating threads on a web forum, in every case.

The rest of the world disagrees.

And really, the wait is very short if you have a decent Internet connection and server.

Web forum navigation is still ponderous by comparison. I can track
dozens of NNTP groups and keep up with them in a few minutes a day;
visiting multiple forums and keeping track of what I am interested in
there takes much, much more time.

With web forums, they keep you up to date rather you tracking them. I track favorite
forums, topics and even searches via subscriptions. I am notified by email or mobile
device notification when there is an update to any of them. I am even notified if
someone has quoted me, and I need to respond. This happens whether I am using a PC,
tablet or phone. Most of these are Tapatalk. Some are not. I have 1 or 2 I follow via
RSS. Can NNTP do that?
Markus Humm

Posts: 5,113
Registered: 11/9/03
Re: Wow, what happened here????
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  Posted: Dec 10, 2014 9:45 AM   in response to: Kyle Miller in response to: Kyle Miller
Am 10.12.2014 18:11, schrieb Kyle Miller:
On 12/10/2014 06:47 AM, Brandon Staggs wrote:
"Kyle Miller" wrote on Tue, 9 Dec 2014 09:25:54 -0800:

The click and wait comes with benefits like being able to read several messages in a
single click (Most if not all NNTP readers require clicking on each message you want to
read.),

My reader (probably all of them) can be and is configured to download
all messages at once. I don't click anything-- pressing space scrolls
each message text and when the end is reached, moves to the next
message. If I don't want to read a message I press N instead.

Downloading message all at once is different than navigating numerous messages at once.

Way faster than navigating threads on a web forum, in every case.

The rest of the world disagrees.

Would you please stop making such bold assumptions?
I'm part of your "rest of the world" and I disagree with your opinion.

Greetings

Markus
Kyle Miller

Posts: 115
Registered: 10/4/99
Re: Wow, what happened here????
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  Posted: Dec 10, 2014 11:26 AM   in response to: Markus Humm in response to: Markus Humm
On 12/10/2014 11:45 AM, Markus Humm wrote:
Am 10.12.2014 18:11, schrieb Kyle Miller:
The rest of the world disagrees.

Would you please stop making such bold assumptions?
I'm part of your "rest of the world" and I disagree with your opinion.

I could bring out NNTP to HTTP usage statistics to support my assumption. Do you think
NNTP will reach even 1%?
Markus Humm

Posts: 5,113
Registered: 11/9/03
Re: Wow, what happened here????
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  Posted: Dec 10, 2014 1:44 PM   in response to: Kyle Miller in response to: Kyle Miller
Am 10.12.2014 20:26, schrieb Kyle Miller:
On 12/10/2014 11:45 AM, Markus Humm wrote:
Am 10.12.2014 18:11, schrieb Kyle Miller:
The rest of the world disagrees.

Would you please stop making such bold assumptions?
I'm part of your "rest of the world" and I disagree with your opinion.

I could bring out NNTP to HTTP usage statistics to support my assumption. Do you think
NNTP will reach even 1%?

Hello,

and?If more than one other person uses NNTP then HTTP is by sheer
definition still not "rest of the world". (at maximum it's rest of the
world - 1). And you didn't even bother to look for some statistics
before posting.

If you had used "most of the world" things would have been different and
more correct.

Greetings

Markus
Brandon Staggs

Posts: 683
Registered: 3/3/01
Re: Wow, what happened here????
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  Posted: Dec 10, 2014 3:17 PM   in response to: Kyle Miller in response to: Kyle Miller
"Kyle Miller" wrote on Wed, 10 Dec 2014 11:26:18 -0800:

I could bring out NNTP to HTTP usage statistics to support my assumption. Do you think
NNTP will reach even 1%?

Silly.

Just because people use toolbars does not mean that "everyone agrees"
they are faster than keyboard shortcuts. Some people do so out of
habit, or don't know better, or because they don't know the shortcuts
and don't use the functions often enough to make learning them a
priority... Whatever.

--
Brandon Staggs
StudyLamp Software LLC
http://www.studylamp.com
David Erbas-White

Posts: 202
Registered: 10/11/99
Re: Wow, what happened here????
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  Posted: Dec 10, 2014 3:49 PM   in response to: Brandon Staggs in response to: Brandon Staggs
On 12/10/2014 3:17 PM, Brandon Staggs wrote:
"Kyle Miller" wrote on Wed, 10 Dec 2014 11:26:18 -0800:

I could bring out NNTP to HTTP usage statistics to support my assumption. Do you think
NNTP will reach even 1%?

Silly.

Just because people use toolbars does not mean that "everyone agrees"
they are faster than keyboard shortcuts. Some people do so out of
habit, or don't know better, or because they don't know the shortcuts
and don't use the functions often enough to make learning them a
priority... Whatever.

To this day I'm still far more productive programming using classic
"Wordstar" editing commands (or given the context of this group, "IDE
classic" commands) than any other mechanism, mouseism, or ribbonism...

David Erbas-White
Dalija Prasnikar

Posts: 2,325
Registered: 11/9/99
Re: Wow, what happened here????
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  Posted: Dec 11, 2014 2:02 AM   in response to: David Erbas-White in response to: David Erbas-White
David Erbas-White wrote:
On 12/10/2014 3:17 PM, Brandon Staggs wrote:
"Kyle Miller" wrote on Wed, 10 Dec 2014 11:26:18 -0800:

I could bring out NNTP to HTTP usage statistics to support my assumption. Do you think
NNTP will reach even 1%?

Silly.

Just because people use toolbars does not mean that "everyone agrees"
they are faster than keyboard shortcuts. Some people do so out of
habit, or don't know better, or because they don't know the shortcuts
and don't use the functions often enough to make learning them a
priority... Whatever.

To this day I'm still far more productive programming using classic
"Wordstar" editing commands (or given the context of this group, "IDE
classic" commands) than any other mechanism, mouseism, or ribbonism...

Absolutely. To bad that other IDEs don't know them. Delphi is probably
the only IDE out there that knows Wordstar block commands, and you cannot
simulate those in other IDEs because they don't even know what block is.

--
Dalija Prasnikar
David Erbas-White

Posts: 202
Registered: 10/11/99
Re: Wow, what happened here????
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  Posted: Dec 11, 2014 9:40 AM   in response to: Dalija Prasnikar in response to: Dalija Prasnikar
On 12/11/2014 2:02 AM, Dalija Prasnikar wrote:

Absolutely. To bad that other IDEs don't know them. Delphi is probably
the only IDE out there that knows Wordstar block commands, and you cannot
simulate those in other IDEs because they don't even know what block is.

I still use CodeWright (another product that Borland killed)...

David Erbas-White
Dalija Prasnikar

Posts: 2,325
Registered: 11/9/99
Re: Wow, what happened here????
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  Posted: Dec 11, 2014 10:29 AM   in response to: David Erbas-White in response to: David Erbas-White
David Erbas-White wrote:
On 12/11/2014 2:02 AM, Dalija Prasnikar wrote:

Absolutely. To bad that other IDEs don't know them. Delphi is probably
the only IDE out there that knows Wordstar block commands, and you cannot
simulate those in other IDEs because they don't even know what block is.

I still use CodeWright (another product that Borland killed)...

It looks like Embarcadero owns it now http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CodeWright

--
Dalija Prasnikar
Nick Hodges

Posts: 2,414
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: Wow, what happened here????
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  Posted: Dec 11, 2014 11:20 AM   in response to: David Erbas-White in response to: David Erbas-White
David Erbas-White wrote:

I still use CodeWright (another product that Borland killed)..

It's not killed. YOu can still buy it. Or at least you could quite
recently.

--
Nick
Delphi Programming is Fun
Van Swofford

Posts: 397
Registered: 6/28/03
Re: Wow, what happened here????
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  Posted: Dec 11, 2014 2:27 PM   in response to: David Erbas-White in response to: David Erbas-White
David Erbas-White wrote:

To this day I'm still far more productive programming using classic
"Wordstar" editing commands (or given the context of this group, "IDE
classic" commands) than any other mechanism, mouseism, or ribbonism...

Hi David,
As am I, only for me it is vi commands.

--
Cheers,
Van

"Good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad
judgment." - Will Rogers
Kyle Miller

Posts: 115
Registered: 10/4/99
Re: Wow, what happened here????
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  Posted: Dec 15, 2014 9:13 AM   in response to: Brandon Staggs in response to: Brandon Staggs
On 12/10/2014 05:17 PM, Brandon Staggs wrote:
Just because people use toolbars does not mean that "everyone agrees"
they are faster than keyboard shortcuts. Some people do so out of
habit, or don't know better, or because they don't know the shortcuts
and don't use the functions often enough to make learning them a
priority... Whatever.

Then let's focus on the tech proficient community, which includes developers. They know
better and have chosen HTTP.

You guys can obsess on semantics, but the fact remains an overwhelming majority of
world, i.e. effectively the rest of the world, has moved on to HTTP and the web.
Markus Humm

Posts: 5,113
Registered: 11/9/03
Re: Wow, what happened here????
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  Posted: Dec 17, 2014 11:24 AM   in response to: Kyle Miller in response to: Kyle Miller
Am 15.12.2014 um 18:13 schrieb Kyle Miller:
On 12/10/2014 05:17 PM, Brandon Staggs wrote:
Just because people use toolbars does not mean that "everyone agrees"
they are faster than keyboard shortcuts. Some people do so out of
habit, or don't know better, or because they don't know the shortcuts
and don't use the functions often enough to make learning them a
priority... Whatever.

Then let's focus on the tech proficient community, which includes developers. They know
better and have chosen HTTP.

If that would be the case nobody here would use NNTP anymore. But as
obviously quite a few are still using it and find it more effective for
their work/usage of these newsgroups you're exaggerating once again.

Greetings

Markus
Kyle Miller

Posts: 115
Registered: 10/4/99
Re: Wow, what happened here????
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  Posted: Dec 17, 2014 12:21 PM   in response to: Markus Humm in response to: Markus Humm
On 12/17/2014 01:24 PM, Markus Humm wrote:
If that would be the case nobody here would use NNTP anymore. But as
obviously quite a few are still using it and find it more effective for
their work/usage of these newsgroups you're exaggerating once again.

Because that's what Emb is currently offering. It works. Never said NNTP wouldn't.
(BBS's still work too!) It is just not the best option.
Brandon Staggs

Posts: 683
Registered: 3/3/01
Re: Wow, what happened here????
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  Posted: Dec 18, 2014 5:26 AM   in response to: Kyle Miller in response to: Kyle Miller
"Kyle Miller" wrote on Wed, 17 Dec 2014 12:21:20 -0800:

Because that's what Emb is currently offering.

They have been quite clear that they want people using the new
"community forums" (or whatever they are called) which are still
pretty much a ghost town. But if they let NNTP go they will lose a
lot of participants who don't have the time or inclination to monitor
yet more inefficient web forums.

--
Brandon Staggs
StudyLamp Software LLC
http://www.studylamp.com
Mike Margerum

Posts: 590
Registered: 12/1/99
Re: Wow, what happened here????
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  Posted: Dec 18, 2014 9:07 AM   in response to: Brandon Staggs in response to: Brandon Staggs
On 12/18/14 8:26 AM, Brandon Staggs wrote:
"Kyle Miller" wrote on Wed, 17 Dec 2014 12:21:20 -0800:

Because that's what Emb is currently offering.

They have been quite clear that they want people using the new
"community forums" (or whatever they are called) which are still
pretty much a ghost town. But if they let NNTP go they will lose a
lot of participants who don't have the time or inclination to monitor
yet more inefficient web forums.

I wouldn't mind a web group if it worked like google+ where it's
completely obvious what i've already read and it shows me threads i've
read with just the updates. I'm not muddling through 40 posts in a
thread to get to the new ones.
Remy Lebeau (Te...


Posts: 9,447
Registered: 12/23/01
Re: Wow, what happened here????
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  Posted: Dec 18, 2014 11:06 AM   in response to: Mike Margerum in response to: Mike Margerum
Mike wrote:

I wouldn't mind a web group if it worked like google+ where it's
completely obvious what i've already read and it shows me threads
i've read with just the updates.

That is one thing I like about StackOverflow. Its filtering system lets
me see new posts quickly so I can pick what to read, and its notification
system lets me know about updates to posts I've already replied to.

--
Remy Lebeau (TeamB)
Kyle Miller

Posts: 115
Registered: 10/4/99
Re: Wow, what happened here????
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  Posted: Dec 22, 2014 1:05 PM   in response to: Mike Margerum in response to: Mike Margerum
On 12/18/2014 11:07 AM, Mike Margerum wrote:
I wouldn't mind a web group if it worked like google+ where it's
completely obvious what i've already read and it shows me threads i've
read with just the updates. I'm not muddling through 40 posts in a
thread to get to the new ones.

Funny. I'm reading this right after cruising through XDA Developers. They have a "View
First Unread" link in upper right of each page in thread. Just what you're looking for.
Kyle Miller

Posts: 115
Registered: 10/4/99
Re: Wow, what happened here????
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  Posted: Dec 15, 2014 9:15 AM   in response to: Brandon Staggs in response to: Brandon Staggs
On 12/10/2014 05:17 PM, Brandon Staggs wrote:
Just because people use toolbars does not mean that "everyone agrees"
they are faster than keyboard shortcuts. Some people do so out of
habit, or don't know better, or because they don't know the shortcuts
and don't use the functions often enough to make learning them a
priority... Whatever.

The only reference to "faster" I made would be in regard to speed of communication, the
ability to communicate effectively from one person to another using the extra abilities
of HTTP.
Brandon Staggs

Posts: 683
Registered: 3/3/01
Re: Wow, what happened here????
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  Posted: Dec 10, 2014 3:16 PM   in response to: Kyle Miller in response to: Kyle Miller
"Kyle Miller" wrote on Wed, 10 Dec 2014 09:11:46 -0800:

Downloading message all at once is different than navigating numerous messages at once.

Sure, but with one keypress I can ignore a subthread, or move to the
next message, mark a subforum read, etc. On a web forum I have to
scroll to read more than a "page" of text. On my NNTP reader I just
tap space and in addition to the scrolling it moves to the next
message seamlessly. I monitor several web forums and lots of NNTP
groups every day -- there is no question that NNTP makes it faster to
read through/scan posts/threads/forums.

--
Brandon Staggs
StudyLamp Software LLC
http://www.studylamp.com
Kyle Miller

Posts: 115
Registered: 10/4/99
Re: Wow, what happened here????
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  Posted: Dec 15, 2014 9:20 AM   in response to: Brandon Staggs in response to: Brandon Staggs
On 12/10/2014 05:16 PM, Brandon Staggs wrote:
Sure, but with one keypress I can ignore a subthread, or move to the
next message, mark a subforum read, etc. On a web forum I have to
scroll to read more than a "page" of text. On my NNTP reader I just
tap space and in addition to the scrolling it moves to the next
message seamlessly. I monitor several web forums and lots of NNTP
groups every day -- there is no question that NNTP makes it faster to
read through/scan posts/threads/forums.

If you have that newsreader, great. Just make sure everyone in the world has it, and
NNTP will have something over HTTP.

Also, make sure that newsreader is on every device you may be reading from, e.g. phone,
tablet, etc. If not, NNTP loses its advantage. Not so with the web.
Markus Humm

Posts: 5,113
Registered: 11/9/03
Re: Wow, what happened here????
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  Posted: Dec 17, 2014 11:26 AM   in response to: Kyle Miller in response to: Kyle Miller
Am 15.12.2014 um 18:20 schrieb Kyle Miller:
On 12/10/2014 05:16 PM, Brandon Staggs wrote:
Sure, but with one keypress I can ignore a subthread, or move to the
next message, mark a subforum read, etc. On a web forum I have to
scroll to read more than a "page" of text. On my NNTP reader I just
tap space and in addition to the scrolling it moves to the next
message seamlessly. I monitor several web forums and lots of NNTP
groups every day -- there is no question that NNTP makes it faster to
read through/scan posts/threads/forums.

If you have that newsreader, great. Just make sure everyone in the world has it, and
NNTP will have something over HTTP.

Also, make sure that newsreader is on every device you may be reading from, e.g. phone,
tablet, etc. If not, NNTP loses its advantage. Not so with the web.

Hello,

web develops as well. So a PDA from say 7 years ago mostly cannot use
HTML5 webpages either. So what now? Or are you sure that your 1 year old
smart TV still can access all the webpages you'd like in say 2 years
time? Maybe some revolutionary changes are being introduced and no
software update for your TV is being released...

Greetings

Markus
Rudy Velthuis (...


Posts: 7,731
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: Wow, what happened here????
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  Posted: Dec 10, 2014 10:28 AM   in response to: Kyle Miller in response to: Kyle Miller
Kyle Miller wrote:

On 12/04/2014 05:20 AM, Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:
Fully agreed! I don't understand why people prefer web-based over
NNTP. Web-based is slower (AKA click-and-wait), has a static
layout, has terrible navigation, has too much fluff compared to
content, has no useful overview like in a three-pane NNTP client,
etc. etc.

The click and wait comes with benefits like being able to read
several messages in a single click

I can read the first line of some 35 messages at once, without clicking
anything. The fact that all messages in a thread are expanded makes
navigation a lot harder, not easier. And I can see several threads at
once too, also without clicking anything. That is impossible in a
web-based setup. So whatever you say, web-based is far inferior to a
good newsreader for NNTP.
--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Giving money and power to government is like giving whiskey
and car keys to teenage boys."
-- P. J. O'Rourke
Kyle Miller

Posts: 115
Registered: 10/4/99
Re: Wow, what happened here????
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  Posted: Dec 10, 2014 11:38 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
On 12/10/2014 12:28 PM, Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:
I can read the first line of some 35 messages at once, without clicking
anything. The fact that all messages in a thread are expanded makes
navigation a lot harder, not easier. And I can see several threads at

The world has found it easier to communicate (This is about communications, the balance
of expression and reading.) using the richness of web forum software. While it may be
easier to read using your NNTP program,
A) Not everyone has your program, but they do have a web browser.
B) NNTP and your program fail to provide services which improve communications.

once too, also without clicking anything. That is impossible in a
web-based setup. So whatever you say, web-based is far inferior to a
good newsreader for NNTP.

I think the Internet, including the developer community, has said that all that needs to
be said about NNTP. Goodbye. Adiós. Sayōnara. Auf Wiedersehen.
Adem Meda

Posts: 495
Registered: 12/28/98
Re: Wow, what happened here????
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  Posted: Dec 10, 2014 2:28 PM   in response to: Kyle Miller in response to: Kyle Miller
Kyle Miller wrote:

I think the Internet, including the developer community, has said that all
that needs to be said about NNTP. Goodbye. Adiós. Sayōnara. Auf Wiedersehen.

Why do I find it amusing that you're frequenting a forum that's about Delphi
which (by your token) has been abondoned by the world at large.

Or, is the real amusing bit this: You're playng the numbers game when the issue
is merit (i.e. usability for the purpose at hand).
Kyle Miller

Posts: 115
Registered: 10/4/99
Re: Wow, what happened here????
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  Posted: Dec 15, 2014 9:28 AM   in response to: Adem Meda in response to: Adem Meda
On 12/10/2014 04:28 PM, Adem Meda wrote:
Why do I find it amusing that you're frequenting a forum that's about Delphi
which (by your token) has been abondoned by the world at large.

Windows development is very strong. Users do not care of the mechanics of solutions,
just that they work well, which is why HTTP and the web has beaten NNTP.

A question would be to ask why did Delphi ever graduate from creating DOS applications.
Command line apps are so much more efficient.

How many NNTP proponents browse the web using Lynx vs. Chrome/Firefox/IE/Etc? (I would
setup as a poll with voting and tabulation, but NNTP forums do not offer such
functionality.) If you advocate NNTP over the web because it's "faster," stop using
mainstream browsers and use Lynx only. Anything is slower and full of cruft.

Or, is the real amusing bit this: You're playng the numbers game when the issue
is merit (i.e. usability for the purpose at hand).

Web forums are more usable, accessible, effective and functional.
Adem Meda

Posts: 495
Registered: 12/28/98
Re: Wow, what happened here????
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  Posted: Dec 17, 2014 5:03 AM   in response to: Kyle Miller in response to: Kyle Miller
Kyle Miller wrote:

On 12/10/2014 04:28 PM, Adem Meda wrote:
Why do I find it amusing that you're frequenting a forum that's about Delphi
which (by your token) has been abondoned by the world at large.

Windows development is very strong. Users do not care of the mechanics of
solutions, just that they work well, which is why HTTP and the web has beaten
NNTP.

Yep: The same way processed food with sugary additivies has beaten home cooking.

A question would be to ask why did Delphi ever graduate from creating DOS
applications. Command line apps are so much more efficient.

You keep doing this over and over: pick an individual tree or two and ignore
the whole forest..

DOS was efficient only if you wanted to do a single task. It still is for
applications that demand absolute monopoly over hardware.

DOS was neither designed for multi-tasking nor to maximize user's overall
efficieny which means GUI. [BTW, the running joke, at the time, was that
"Windows" meant "double you in DOS" (especially since MS would spell the 'i'
dotless in lower case.]

Here's what I think about GUIs: There needs to be a limit to how much 'GUI' is
employed. I, e.g., hate skinned apps.

How many NNTP proponents browse the web using Lynx vs. Chrome/Firefox/IE/Etc?

And, where did you ever see me proposing text-only interfaces?

(I would setup as a poll with voting and tabulation, but NNTP forums do not
offer such functionality.)

Of course it doesn't and it is a good thing. Use HTML for that.

If you advocate NNTP over the web because it's
"faster," stop using mainstream browsers and use Lynx only. Anything is
slower and full of cruft.

Why should I have to gothe text-only route?

When I read techniceal articles, e.g., I definetly want to see pictures and
even video.

But, to read a forum where people ask and receive answers?

Or, is the real amusing bit this: You're playng the numbers game when the
issue is merit (i.e. usability for the purpose at hand).

Web forums are more usable, accessible, effective and functional.

And, utterly wasteful --both timewise and energy-wise.
Kyle Miller

Posts: 115
Registered: 10/4/99
Re: Wow, what happened here????
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  Posted: Dec 17, 2014 9:03 AM   in response to: Adem Meda in response to: Adem Meda
On 12/17/2014 07:03 AM, Adem Meda wrote:
Kyle Miller wrote:

Windows development is very strong. Users do not care of the mechanics of
solutions, just that they work well, which is why HTTP and the web has beaten
NNTP.

Yep: The same way processed food with sugary additivies has beaten home cooking.

From NNTP/HTTP to Delphi to foods... I'm getting whiplash.

A question would be to ask why did Delphi ever graduate from creating DOS
applications. Command line apps are so much more efficient.

You keep doing this over and over: pick an individual tree or two and ignore
the whole forest..

The same is said for NNTP proponents. They focus on a tree or two and ignore the big
picture.

DOS was efficient only if you wanted to do a single task. It still is for
applications that demand absolute monopoly over hardware.

DOS was neither designed for multi-tasking nor to maximize user's overall
efficieny which means GUI. [BTW, the running joke, at the time, was that
"Windows" meant "double you in DOS" (especially since MS would spell the 'i'
dotless in lower case.]

I am not arguing DOS was more efficient. I'm just following the illogic of NNTP's
simplicity means it is automatically better or more efficient.

Even if a user is single tasking in Windows or Linux, i.e. working in only one app, GUI
is far superior to DOS even if it comes with extra weight to render the UI.

How many NNTP proponents browse the web using Lynx vs. Chrome/Firefox/IE/Etc?

And, where did you ever see me proposing text-only interfaces?

NNTP is not text only? If you are not advocating NNTP over web forums, ignore my question.

(I would setup as a poll with voting and tabulation, but NNTP forums do not
offer such functionality.)

Of course it doesn't and it is a good thing. Use HTML for that.

Yes. Because polls have no place in group discussion. <eyes rolling>

Web forums are more usable, accessible, effective and functional.

And, utterly wasteful --both timewise and energy-wise.

NNTP can be just as wasteful time wise. See non-tech. ;)
david hoke

Posts: 616
Registered: 2/9/07
Re: Wow, what happened here????
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  Posted: Dec 17, 2014 12:21 PM   in response to: Kyle Miller in response to: Kyle Miller
"Kyle Miller" <kyle at millerdevelopment dot info> wrote in message
news:705964 at forums dot embarcadero dot com...
Even if a user is single tasking in Windows or Linux, i.e. working in only
one app, GUI
is far superior to DOS even if it comes with extra weight to render the
UI.

For many activities, yes. But not for all activities. But the main one I
take issue with could be addressed in a GUI, if the various file explorers
provided (maybe some I don't use have?) a means of selecting files via
(typing) some sort of (useful) pattern matching mechanism (general regular
expressions at a minimum, perl even better, and include the ability to
rename discarding/retaining portions [as can be accomplished in perl via
certain if its regexp constructions].)

Of course, that's decidedly un-GUI like, and therefore I'm guessing you may
not like the idea. Even though there are certain actions I occassionally
have to perform (certain types of subsetting from groups of files) that
'textual' command line tools make much easier, than the any point-and-click
environments I've tried.
Kyle Miller

Posts: 115
Registered: 10/4/99
Re: Wow, what happened here????
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  Posted: Dec 17, 2014 3:24 PM   in response to: david hoke in response to: david hoke
On 12/17/2014 02:21 PM, david hoke wrote:
For many activities, yes. But not for all activities. But the main one I
take issue with could be addressed in a GUI, if the various file explorers
provided (maybe some I don't use have?) a means of selecting files via
(typing) some sort of (useful) pattern matching mechanism (general regular
expressions at a minimum, perl even better, and include the ability to
rename discarding/retaining portions [as can be accomplished in perl via
certain if its regexp constructions].)

I agree. Not for all, but the majority of users, it does.

I use Agent Ransack for reg exp searches. You can try FreeCommander's basic filtering.
TotalCommander might have reg exp filtering.

Of course, that's decidedly un-GUI like, and therefore I'm guessing you may
not like the idea. Even though there are certain actions I occassionally
have to perform (certain types of subsetting from groups of files) that
'textual' command line tools make much easier, than the any point-and-click
environments I've tried.

As a Linux user, I fear no CLI, but I do prefer GUI.
Adem Meda

Posts: 495
Registered: 12/28/98
Re: Wow, what happened here????
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  Posted: Dec 17, 2014 12:34 PM   in response to: Kyle Miller in response to: Kyle Miller
Kyle Miller wrote:

And, where did you ever see me proposing text-only interfaces?

NNTP is not text only? If you are not advocating NNTP over web forums, ignore
my question.

NNTP is text-only only if you use a telnet terminal to do your posting/reading
(I remeber them <g> days).

BTW, HTTP is /ALSO/ 'text-only' as far as the procol is concerned.

Here is another anecdote of mine which you might consider a "whiplash".

Last year I ordered a 3.5 HDD from some vendor. The price was right and
shipping free. They also delivered rather fast. SO, I should be happy, right?

Well, not quite..

They packaged that 3.5 HDD in a box you could easily fit an average-size
microwave oven. They had filled the rest with some foma beads plus pages and
pages of their ads.

You could tell their dispatch department was being run by a web designer ;)

(I would setup as a poll with voting and tabulation, but NNTP forums do not
offer such functionality.)

Of course it doesn't and it is a good thing. Use HTML for that.

Yes. Because polls have no place in group discussion. <eyes rolling>

I am sure you will roll your eyes back once you remember that even forums
(mostly) do polls as separate pages (IOW, a different context).

Plus, what we are doing here is one-to-one exchange of opinions; this is not a
popularity contest.

Why would you need a poll?

Do you really think polls extracted from a limited nunber of people mean much?

Web forums are more usable, accessible, effective and functional.

And, utterly wasteful --both timewise and energy-wise.

NNTP can be just as wasteful time wise. See non-tech. ;)

And count your blessings..

Imagine what it would look like if it were all in HTTP? ;)
Kyle Miller

Posts: 115
Registered: 10/4/99
Re: Wow, what happened here????
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  Posted: Dec 17, 2014 3:30 PM   in response to: Adem Meda in response to: Adem Meda
On 12/17/2014 02:34 PM, Adem Meda wrote:
Kyle Miller wrote:

And, where did you ever see me proposing text-only interfaces?

NNTP is not text only? If you are not advocating NNTP over web forums, ignore
my question.

NNTP is text-only only if you use a telnet terminal to do your posting/reading
(I remeber them <g> days).

BTW, HTTP is /ALSO/ 'text-only' as far as the procol is concerned.

I'm talking text only in rendering. Surely you understand that.

Yes. Because polls have no place in group discussion. <eyes rolling>

I am sure you will roll your eyes back once you remember that even forums
(mostly) do polls as separate pages (IOW, a different context).

Polls usually sit at the top of a thread.

Plus, what we are doing here is one-to-one exchange of opinions; this is not a
popularity contest.

Why would you need a poll?

Reader feedback.

Do you really think polls extracted from a limited nunber of people mean much?

Interesting to get a feel from readers. People can express their opinion with just a
click of a poll and not have to click New NNTP Message button.

Imagine what it would look like if it were all in HTTP? ;)

I do not fear the web.
Adem Meda

Posts: 495
Registered: 12/28/98
Re: Wow, what happened here????
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  Posted: Dec 17, 2014 6:02 PM   in response to: Kyle Miller in response to: Kyle Miller
Kyle Miller wrote:

On 12/17/2014 02:34 PM, Adem Meda wrote:
Kyle Miller wrote:

BTW, HTTP is ALSO 'text-only' as far as the procol is concerned.

I'm talking text only in rendering. Surely you understand that.

One of the 'T's in HTTP and the only 'T' in NNTP stands for 'transfer'.

And, the 'P's in both stand for 'protocol'.

So, to spell it out: We are comparing/discussing two 'transfer protocol's.

Once you notice that, you'll also notice that rendering is irrelevant in this
context.

[So, please stop talking about Lynx as if it is a NNTP client; it isn't.]

I really don't have time to do a lecture on 'transfer protocol's but I have to
say this: You need to look into it in your spare time.

One aspect of doing a comparison of communication/transfer protocols/techniques
is to inspect/study how many bytes each one requires to convey a given piece of
information.

When we're talking about conveying human speech in text form, we can use an
age-old example: "Hello world".

With todays HTML usage (CSS + JS and whatever else) a 'page' can exceed MBytes.

Contrast that with a couple of kBytes it takes under NNTP.

It is that simple. Simple math.

From this discussion, I can see that you don't have that basic understanding.

If you had, you wouldn't have needed to attempt to refer to "world" as some
sort of 'authority'.

Why would you need a poll?

Reader feedback.

What's wrong with letting them tell you what they think in their own words?

Why restrict them to a few (sometimes well selected, other times ill worded)
options?

Do you really think polls extracted from a limited nunber of people mean
much?

Interesting to get a feel from readers. People can express their opinion with
just a click of a poll and not have to click New NNTP Message button.

Imagine what it would look like if it were all in HTTP? ;)

I do not fear the web.

You're much richer man than I for you seem to have the luxory waste so much
energy.
Kyle Miller

Posts: 115
Registered: 10/4/99
Re: Wow, what happened here????
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  Posted: Dec 22, 2014 1:08 PM   in response to: Adem Meda in response to: Adem Meda
On 12/17/2014 08:02 PM, Adem Meda wrote:
Kyle Miller wrote:
If you had, you wouldn't have needed to attempt to refer to "world" as some
sort of 'authority'.

Internet traffic reports are all the authority I need.

Why would you need a poll?

Reader feedback.

What's wrong with letting them tell you what they think in their own words?

Why restrict them to a few (sometimes well selected, other times ill worded)
options?

Because many times that's all that needs to be said.

Imagine what it would look like if it were all in HTTP? ;)

I do not fear the web.

You're much richer man than I for you seem to have the luxory waste so much
energy.

Not a rich man or a Luddite. That's why I want web forums for more effective communications.
Markus Humm

Posts: 5,113
Registered: 11/9/03
Re: Wow, what happened here????
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  Posted: Dec 22, 2014 2:52 PM   in response to: Kyle Miller in response to: Kyle Miller
Am 22.12.2014 um 22:08 schrieb Kyle Miller:
On 12/17/2014 08:02 PM, Adem Meda wrote:
Kyle Miller wrote:
If you had, you wouldn't have needed to attempt to refer to "world" as some
sort of 'authority'.

Internet traffic reports are all the authority I need.

Why would you need a poll?

Reader feedback.

What's wrong with letting them tell you what they think in their own words?

Why restrict them to a few (sometimes well selected, other times ill worded)
options?

Because many times that's all that needs to be said.

Quite a lot polls miss important things because they have been created
narrow minded and thus only produce a distorted result. (or only produce
what the one asking already wanted to hear - means to have his opinion
confirmed)

Greetings

Markus
Kyle Miller

Posts: 115
Registered: 10/4/99
Re: Wow, what happened here????
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  Posted: Dec 22, 2014 2:58 PM   in response to: Markus Humm in response to: Markus Humm
On 12/22/2014 04:52 PM, Markus Humm wrote:
Quite a lot polls miss important things because they have been created
narrow minded and thus only produce a distorted result. (or only produce
what the one asking already wanted to hear - means to have his opinion
confirmed)

That's why you respond in the thread with a more precise response. Most responses are
captured in a well worded poll.
Markus Humm

Posts: 5,113
Registered: 11/9/03
Re: Wow, what happened here????
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  Posted: Dec 17, 2014 11:28 AM   in response to: Kyle Miller in response to: Kyle Miller
Am 15.12.2014 um 18:28 schrieb Kyle Miller:
On 12/10/2014 04:28 PM, Adem Meda wrote:
Why do I find it amusing that you're frequenting a forum that's about Delphi
which (by your token) has been abondoned by the world at large.

Windows development is very strong. Users do not care of the mechanics of solutions,
just that they work well, which is why HTTP and the web has beaten NNTP.

A question would be to ask why did Delphi ever graduate from creating DOS applications.
Command line apps are so much more efficient.

How many NNTP proponents browse the web using Lynx vs. Chrome/Firefox/IE/Etc? (I would
setup as a poll with voting and tabulation, but NNTP forums do not offer such
functionality.) If you advocate NNTP over the web because it's "faster," stop using
mainstream browsers and use Lynx only. Anything is slower and full of cruft.

Or, is the real amusing bit this: You're playng the numbers game when the issue
is merit (i.e. usability for the purpose at hand).

Web forums are more usable, accessible, effective and functional.

Hm?

1. Delphi can still produce command line applications, not 100% in the
way TP could, but in the way the underlying plattform supports
without emulation layer

2. Who's accessing NNTP via some webbrowser? Lynx is a webbrowser and
not a NNTP newsreader.

Greetings

Markus
Kyle Miller

Posts: 115
Registered: 10/4/99
Re: Wow, what happened here????
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  Posted: Dec 17, 2014 12:29 PM   in response to: Markus Humm in response to: Markus Humm
On 12/17/2014 01:28 PM, Markus Humm wrote:
1. Delphi can still produce command line applications, not 100% in the
way TP could, but in the way the underlying plattform supports
without emulation layer

And when you start a project, you always suggest CLI apps first because they are more
efficient. Who needs all the fat of a GUI? Right?

2. Who's accessing NNTP via some webbrowser? Lynx is a webbrowser and
not a NNTP newsreader.

The issue was whether NNTP was a better protocol for group discussion because of its
simplicity vs. the web's flexibility. If NNTP, a text only world, is so efficient in
communications and HTTP/web is so inefficient, why not use Lynx over standard web
browsers? After all, we heard how users are bandwidth restricted that it makes web
forums suboptimal. If so, stop using standard browsers.
Markus Humm

Posts: 5,113
Registered: 11/9/03
Re: Wow, what happened here????
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  Posted: Dec 18, 2014 12:39 PM   in response to: Kyle Miller in response to: Kyle Miller
Am 17.12.2014 um 21:29 schrieb Kyle Miller:
On 12/17/2014 01:28 PM, Markus Humm wrote:
1. Delphi can still produce command line applications, not 100% in the
way TP could, but in the way the underlying plattform supports
without emulation layer

And when you start a project, you always suggest CLI apps first because they are more
efficient. Who needs all the fat of a GUI? Right?

Here we have you "one size fits all attitude" again. ;-)

2. Who's accessing NNTP via some webbrowser? Lynx is a webbrowser and
not a NNTP newsreader.

The issue was whether NNTP was a better protocol for group discussion because of its
simplicity vs. the web's flexibility. If NNTP, a text only world, is so efficient in
communications and HTTP/web is so inefficient, why not use Lynx over standard web
browsers? After all, we heard how users are bandwidth restricted that it makes web
forums suboptimal. If so, stop using standard browsers.

Nobody said web was useless or normal websites are rubbish etc.
We only claim that for discussion fuorums NNTP is mostly more ressource
efficient while still transfering the messages of the posts.

In 90% of all posts advanced features like inline images or tables are
not needed and even NNTP supports attachments. And one additional pro:
if I attach something to a post the other readers can se before
downloading how big it will be and thus decide to download and read all
of this or not.

Can you see that before loading a web site? No.

Greetings

Markus
Kyle Miller

Posts: 115
Registered: 10/4/99
Re: Wow, what happened here????
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  Posted: Dec 22, 2014 1:17 PM   in response to: Markus Humm in response to: Markus Humm
On 12/18/2014 02:39 PM, Markus Humm wrote:

Nobody said web was useless or normal websites are rubbish etc.
We only claim that for discussion fuorums NNTP is mostly more ressource
efficient while still transfering the messages of the posts.

More resource efficient? I agree. More communication efficient? Not so much.

In 90% of all posts advanced features like inline images or tables are
not needed and even NNTP supports attachments. And one additional pro:
if I attach something to a post the other readers can se before
downloading how big it will be and thus decide to download and read all
of this or not.

Use an image blocker. I use a Flash blocker all the time because some sites have those
annoying auto playing videos. (Despite this annoyance, I still use a graphical web
browser. No Lynx for me.) Also, attach an image is an option if inlining is not necessary.
Markus Humm

Posts: 5,113
Registered: 11/9/03
Re: Wow, what happened here????
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  Posted: Dec 22, 2014 2:54 PM   in response to: Kyle Miller in response to: Kyle Miller
Am 22.12.2014 um 22:17 schrieb Kyle Miller:
On 12/18/2014 02:39 PM, Markus Humm wrote:

Nobody said web was useless or normal websites are rubbish etc.
We only claim that for discussion fuorums NNTP is mostly more ressource
efficient while still transfering the messages of the posts.

More resource efficient? I agree. More communication efficient? Not so much.

In 90% of all posts advanced features like inline images or tables are
not needed and even NNTP supports attachments. And one additional pro:
if I attach something to a post the other readers can se before
downloading how big it will be and thus decide to download and read all
of this or not.

Use an image blocker. I use a Flash blocker all the time because some sites have those
annoying auto playing videos. (Despite this annoyance, I still use a graphical web
browser. No Lynx for me.) Also, attach an image is an option if inlining is not necessary.

Hello,

how does the image blocker know which ones to block?
Ah, it blocks all and I can selectively opt do download the ones I want.
But: that's not really different to what NNTP allows for with
attachments and does the image blocker show you the size of the contents
blocked?

Greetings

Markus
Rudy Velthuis (...


Posts: 7,731
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: Wow, what happened here????
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  Posted: Dec 4, 2014 3:15 AM   in response to: David Pratt in response to: David Pratt
David Pratt wrote:

My guess is that a lot of people have probably given up and have
moved on to "greener pastures." I know I only pop my head in here
about once a week now (If that often) to see if there is anything
new. And Embarcadero is building a new community site, too.
http://community.embarcadero.com/

A community site that is web-based only (IOW, it is click-and-wait),
and has no NNTP access. No thanks.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Eternal nothingness is fine if you happen to be dressed for it."
-- Woody Allen.
Rudy Velthuis (...


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Re: Wow, what happened here????
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  Posted: Dec 2, 2014 10:05 AM   in response to: Dalija Prasnikar in response to: Dalija Prasnikar
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:

Seriously, guys you gotta be kidding me, I leave you alone for a while
and all of a sudden you are all well behaved and not trashing this
place. Non-tech looks almost dead...

Dead? I see a lot of Chinese, and I can't read that (one of the few
languages on this planet I don't speak).

Now you are going to blame it all on me. Don't think so ;-)

Hey, Rudy, have you lost your Internet connection or what?

Well, I have been busy at home, in my clinic and... learning, just for
fun, Common Lisp.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"If the United Nations once admits that international disputes
can be settled by using force, then we will have destroyed the
foundation of the organization and our best hope of establishing
a world order." -- Dwight D. Eisenhower
Dalija Prasnikar

Posts: 2,325
Registered: 11/9/99
Re: Wow, what happened here????
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  Posted: Dec 3, 2014 1:38 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:

Seriously, guys you gotta be kidding me, I leave you alone for a while
and all of a sudden you are all well behaved and not trashing this
place. Non-tech looks almost dead...

Dead? I see a lot of Chinese, and I can't read that (one of the few
languages on this planet I don't speak).

Thank you for making those messages go away :)

Now you are going to blame it all on me. Don't think so ;-)

Hey, Rudy, have you lost your Internet connection or what?

Well, I have been busy at home, in my clinic and... learning, just for
fun, Common Lisp.

Well, have fun then ;-)

--
Dalija Prasnikar
Rudy Velthuis (...


Posts: 7,731
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Re: Wow, what happened here????
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  Posted: Dec 4, 2014 3:14 AM   in response to: Dalija Prasnikar in response to: Dalija Prasnikar
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:

Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:

Seriously, guys you gotta be kidding me, I leave you alone for a
while and all of a sudden you are all well behaved and not
trashing this place. Non-tech looks almost dead...

Dead? I see a lot of Chinese, and I can't read that (one of the few
languages on this planet I don't speak).

Thank you for making those messages go away :)

Huh?

Now you are going to blame it all on me. Don't think so ;-)

Hey, Rudy, have you lost your Internet connection or what?

Well, I have been busy at home, in my clinic and... learning, just
for fun, Common Lisp.

Well, have fun then ;-)

Actually, it is fun and it is something I wanted to do a long time
already. I also started writing my own Forth implementation, and a
BigInt with and without assembly.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

Weiler's Law: Nothing is impossible for the man who doesn't have
to do the work.
Dalija Prasnikar

Posts: 2,325
Registered: 11/9/99
Re: Wow, what happened here????
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  Posted: Dec 4, 2014 3:28 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:

Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:

Seriously, guys you gotta be kidding me, I leave you alone for a
while and all of a sudden you are all well behaved and not
trashing this place. Non-tech looks almost dead...

Dead? I see a lot of Chinese, and I can't read that (one of the few
languages on this planet I don't speak).

Thank you for making those messages go away :)

Huh?

Now you are going to blame it all on me. Don't think so ;-)

Hey, Rudy, have you lost your Internet connection or what?

Well, I have been busy at home, in my clinic and... learning, just
for fun, Common Lisp.

Well, have fun then ;-)

Actually, it is fun and it is something I wanted to do a long time
already. I also started writing my own Forth implementation, and a
BigInt with and without assembly.

If I had a dime for every single time someone started to write their own
Forth implementation...

BigInt sounds interesting. I never had time to properly finish mine.

--
Dalija Prasnikar
Rudy Velthuis (...


Posts: 7,731
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: Wow, what happened here????
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  Posted: Dec 4, 2014 3:37 AM   in response to: Dalija Prasnikar in response to: Dalija Prasnikar
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:

If I had a dime for every single time someone started to write their
own Forth implementation...

You'd have three or four dollars more than you have now. <g>

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else,
that prevents us from living freely and nobly."
-- Bertrand Russell
Dalija Prasnikar

Posts: 2,325
Registered: 11/9/99
Re: Wow, what happened here????
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  Posted: Dec 4, 2014 4:09 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:

If I had a dime for every single time someone started to write their
own Forth implementation...

You'd have three or four dollars more than you have now. <g>

ROFL

--
Dalija Prasnikar
Rudy Velthuis (...


Posts: 7,731
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Re: Wow, what happened here????
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  Posted: Dec 4, 2014 5:23 AM   in response to: Dalija Prasnikar in response to: Dalija Prasnikar
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:

Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:

If I had a dime for every single time someone started to write
their own Forth implementation...

You'd have three or four dollars more than you have now. <g>

ROFL

FWIW, a dime is 10 cent.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"If you were my husband, I'd give you poison."
-- Lady Astor to Churchill

"If you were my wife, I'd take it."
-- Curchill to Lady Astor
Dalija Prasnikar

Posts: 2,325
Registered: 11/9/99
Re: Wow, what happened here????
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  Posted: Dec 4, 2014 7:02 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:

Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:
Dalija Prasnikar wrote:

If I had a dime for every single time someone started to write
their own Forth implementation...

You'd have three or four dollars more than you have now. <g>

ROFL

FWIW, a dime is 10 cent.

I know, that s why I was laughing. Your 3-4 dollars estimate was just
about right ;-)

--
Dalija Prasnikar
david hoke

Posts: 616
Registered: 2/9/07
Re: Wow, what happened here????
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  Posted: Dec 4, 2014 6:23 AM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
"Rudy Velthuis (TeamB)" <newsgroups at rvelthuis dot de> wrote in message
news:704419 at forums dot embarcadero dot com...

Now you are going to blame it all on me. Don't think so ;-)

Hey, Rudy, have you lost your Internet connection or what?

Well, I have been busy at home, in my clinic and... learning, just
for fun, Common Lisp.

Well, have fun then ;-)

Actually, it is fun and it is something I wanted to do a long time
already. I also started writing my own Forth implementation, and a
BigInt with and without assembly.

How's that replacement string class coming?

Did you release it and I missed it?
Rudy Velthuis (...


Posts: 7,731
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: Wow, what happened here????
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  Posted: Dec 4, 2014 8:31 AM   in response to: david hoke in response to: david hoke
david hoke wrote:

How's that replacement string class coming?

Did you release it and I missed it?

I still couldn't test it on mobile and that's what it was meant for. If
you (or anyone else) want to test it on iOS or Android, just holler.
I'll put it on my site or in CodeCentral.

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Truth always lags behind, limping along on the arm of Time."
-- Baltasar Graci·n
Adem Meda

Posts: 495
Registered: 12/28/98
Re: Wow, what happened here????
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  Posted: Dec 4, 2014 1:46 PM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:

Actually, it is fun and it is something I wanted to do a long time
already. I also started writing my own Forth implementation, and a
BigInt with and without assembly.

You must be a misfit as far as dentistry is concerned. Why did you initially
choose to become a dentist and not an engineer (electronics/computer etc.)?
Rudy Velthuis (...


Posts: 7,731
Registered: 9/22/99
Re: Wow, what happened here????
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  Posted: Dec 9, 2014 1:11 AM   in response to: Adem Meda in response to: Adem Meda
Adem Meda wrote:

Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) wrote:

Actually, it is fun and it is something I wanted to do a long time
already. I also started writing my own Forth implementation, and a
BigInt with and without assembly.

You must be a misfit as far as dentistry is concerned.

I don't think so. I am very good at that too. <g>
--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"It's wonderful to be here in the great state of Chicago."
-- Dan Quayle
Loren Pechtel

Posts: 20
Registered: 3/23/00
Re: Wow, what happened here????
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  Posted: Dec 6, 2014 7:49 PM   in response to: Rudy Velthuis (... in response to: Rudy Velthuis (...
On Thu, 4 Dec 2014 03:14:35 -0800, Rudy Velthuis (TeamB)
<newsgroups at rvelthuis dot de> wrote:

Actually, it is fun and it is something I wanted to do a long time
already. I also started writing my own Forth implementation, and a
BigInt with and without assembly.

Did you know there used to be a programming language called Sin?

It was horrible. Really, really horrible. That's why God really
meant when he said "Go Forth and Sin no more."
John Treder

Posts: 349
Registered: 8/2/02
Re: Wow, what happened here????
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  Posted: Dec 6, 2014 7:56 PM   in response to: Loren Pechtel in response to: Loren Pechtel
Loren Pechtel wrote:

On Thu, 4 Dec 2014 03:14:35 -0800, Rudy Velthuis (TeamB)
<newsgroups at rvelthuis dot de> wrote:

Actually, it is fun and it is something I wanted to do a long time
already. I also started writing my own Forth implementation, and a
BigInt with and without assembly.

Did you know there used to be a programming language called Sin?

It was horrible. Really, really horrible. That's why God really
meant when he said "Go Forth and Sin no more."

<urk>

--
Tredmill
Rudy Velthuis (...


Posts: 7,731
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Re: Wow, what happened here????
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  Posted: Dec 9, 2014 1:12 AM   in response to: Loren Pechtel in response to: Loren Pechtel
Loren Pechtel wrote:

Did you know there used to be a programming language called Sin?

It was horrible. Really, really horrible. That's why God really
meant when he said "Go Forth and Sin no more."

<groan>

--
Rudy Velthuis http://www.rvelthuis.de

"Nothing unites the English like war. Nothing divides them like
Picasso."
-- Hugh Mills
Brian Hamilton ...

Posts: 556
Registered: 10/14/04
Re: Wow, what happened here????
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  Posted: Dec 2, 2014 4:18 PM   in response to: Dalija Prasnikar in response to: Dalija Prasnikar
on most forums this thread would be deleted as flamming
Dalija Prasnikar

Posts: 2,325
Registered: 11/9/99
Re: Wow, what happened here????
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  Posted: Dec 3, 2014 1:41 AM   in response to: Brian Hamilton ... in response to: Brian Hamilton ...
Brian Hamilton wrote:
on most forums this thread would be deleted as flamming

I used smiley, you know.

--
Dalija Prasnikar
Bo Berglund

Posts: 757
Registered: 10/23/02
Re: Wow, what happened here????
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  Posted: Dec 10, 2014 2:26 PM   in response to: Dalija Prasnikar in response to: Dalija Prasnikar
Hi guys!
I think we now can see there are two different camps here:
1) The HTTP Forum fans
and
2) The NNTP News fans

Could we then not agree that it is wonderful that the Embarcadero
forums although basically web based have a working NNTP interface too
so both camps could co-operate in helping to solve the actual
programming problems for each other?

I have found this to be an almost invaluable tool of information over
all of the years I have spent doing software. I started with Delphi
back in 1996, at the time there was Delphi 1 (16 bit software) and
soon Delphi 2 (32 bit). I think I have used all versions up until RAD
Studio 2007, but then I had a pause in upgrading until XE5 came along
with Android + iOS App development.
Borland/Embarcadero/Codegear has served me well over these years and
so has the newsgroups later transformed into web forums while keeping
the NNTP interface. Good work!

Of course I was dismayed when their server crashed earlier this year
and blocked out all the help availability I had so enjoyed!
And that is not depending upon HTTP vs. NNTP at all.

So please could we end this discussion in a pieceful manner
concluding we hold different views of the tool but fortunately
Embarcadero supports both?

And hoping that Embarcadero will get their server fixed permanently so
the outages do not recur...
Adem Meda

Posts: 495
Registered: 12/28/98
Re: Wow, what happened here????
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  Posted: Dec 10, 2014 4:37 PM   in response to: Bo Berglund in response to: Bo Berglund
Bo Berglund wrote:

Of course I was dismayed when their server crashed earlier this year
and blocked out all the help availability I had so enjoyed!

I have been wondering what sort of server it is/was that it could not be
replaced/repaired.

So please could we end this discussion in a pieceful manner

OK. How many pieces would you settle for? :)

And hoping that Embarcadero will get their server fixed permanently so
the outages do not recur...

That I concur wholeheartedly.
Bo Berglund

Posts: 757
Registered: 10/23/02
Re: Wow, what happened here????
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  Posted: Dec 10, 2014 10:57 PM   in response to: Adem Meda in response to: Adem Meda
On Wed, 10 Dec 2014 16:37:14 -0800, Adem Meda <adem dot meda at gmail dot com>
wrote:

So please could we end this discussion in a pieceful manner

OK. How many pieces would you settle for? :)
peaceful....
Kyle Miller

Posts: 115
Registered: 10/4/99
Re: Wow, what happened here????
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  Posted: Dec 15, 2014 8:30 AM   in response to: Bo Berglund in response to: Bo Berglund
On 12/10/2014 04:26 PM, Bo Berglund wrote:
Could we then not agree that it is wonderful that the Embarcadero
forums although basically web based have a working NNTP interface too
so both camps could co-operate in helping to solve the actual
programming problems for each other?

No problem supporting NNTP as long as HTTP isn't held back by NNTP's limitations.
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